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For wp:rs sources on historical articles, editors have to find historians.
Henry Cattan is not one. the encyclopaedia of Palestine even less and let's not talk about the Jaboc G. xxx.
I removed
Yoav Gelber who never writes p.78 of his book that "[the event] was aimed at sowing terror among the Arab population to drive them out of the city".
WP:NPOV requires to give all minds and for the title to use a wording satisfying all of them. If somebody is not sure to have access to all minds or if he cannot at least check, he should refrain from editing related articles in wikipedia.
After some reading, you will see only some talk about a massacre for this event and that "Semiranis hotel bombing" is far more appropriate.
Ceedjee (
talk) 20:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Well I disagree with your very strict interpretation of RS in this regard. I have added information from
John B. Quigley, he's an international lawyer. If you have a problem with it, I have no problem atributing it to his voice.
Also, I deleted your insertion on
Irgun, as the party Pappe lists as responsible for the Semirami Hotel. I'd appreciate it if you could provide the next three or four sentences after the excerpt you provided.
"In the first week of January alone, Irgun executed more terrorist attacks than in any period before. These included [the Sarraya house attack]. It continued with the bombing of the Semiranis hotel (...)".
It's not clear to me if Pappe is saying the Semiramis Hotel was the work the of the Irgun or not from the fragment you gave there. Thanks.
Tiamuttalk 23:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I think Pappe is referring to the Irgun. Anyway, I have another source that says so:
J. Bowyer Bell's Terror out of Zion. --
Nudve (
talk) 13:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Thank you Nudve.
The bombing was due to Haganah. No problem with that.
What do you mean by "due to Haganah"? --
Nudve (
talk) 14:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Haganah soldiers performed the attack, not Irgun.
4 specialists in explosives with the support of 10 others. If I remember well, they [claimed they] had to open fire to cover their escape.
Ceedjee (
talk) 15:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Source? --
Nudve (
talk) 15:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Update: Well, it seems like the Haganah did assume responsibility at the time
[1]. --
Nudve (
talk) 15:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Hi Nuvde,
The source was my memory, which is far from being a
wp:rs :-)
But... in
Dominique Lapierre and
Larry Collins, O Jerusalem, p.130 it is written : "The four-man demolition team would be covered by as quad of Haganah riflemen." and p.133 ; "Twenty-six people died in the explosion of the Semiramis Hotel."
This is from google.book. I have only the French version of the book. Sorry for that.
Ceedjee (
talk) 08:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Benny Morris, in Righteous Victims, also says Haganah. Does he discuss this in 1948? Anyway, we have two sources saying Irgun, so maybe we should treat this as conflicting views? --
Nudve (
talk) 08:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Hi Nuvde,
I missed something : what is the 2nd source that say it was Irgun ?
Pappé and ?
That was Haganah. There is no single doubt about that :-)
Ceedjee (
talk) 12:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)reply
As I said,
J. Bowyer Bell's Terror out of Zion. However, he only mentions it incidentally while discussing an Arab attack that took place later, so any source talking directly about it might be preferable. --
Nudve (
talk) 13:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Sorry. It was not clear to me.
It is good to add that "some commentators" (we cannot talk about scholars given they don't even know such a basic information) attribute the bombing to Irgun. Benny Morris, 1948 writes about this, p.104 writes : "The Haganah made other mistakes. On the night of 5-6 January 1948, a squad of sappers (...) blew up a part of Semiramis Hotel, suspected of housing an Arab irregulars headquarters." Ceedjee (
talk) 18:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Thanks. Morris's is the most recent study, so it's probably the most reliable. --
Nudve (
talk) 07:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I have to disagree.
Anybody who studied a minimum the events knows that Haganah performed that attack as well as the circumstances.
A MS student in M-E history would have been sacked for such a mistake.
But we are not MS student. We just report wp:rs information.
Ceedjee (
talk) 09:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Not sure I understand. Morris says it was the Haganah, and I say Morris is reliable. So what is it that you disagree with? --
Nudve (
talk) 15:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Sorry. Sometimes I am not clear.
You wrote : "so it's probably the most reliable".
I agree Morris is reliable but not fully with your statement because it would mean the others we talked about would also be reliable, which I disagree with.
Which ones would you consider unreliable and why? --
Nudve (
talk) 05:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Hi Nuvde,
even if you would agree with me, it would not change anything.
I don't mind much the consequences of the 1948 War on the I-P conflict. I just mind history. ::::::In that context, Ilan Pappé is terrible. I still don't know if he is just incompetent, a liar, or both.
Ceedjee (
talk) 07:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Now I'm confused. Earlier
you said that he is reliable. --
Nudve (
talk) 07:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)reply
For wikipedia today,
Ilan Pappé is a
wp:rs source. That is what I wrote here above and to which you refer.
For me and I am convinced all serious historians without agenda,
Ilan Pappé is not reliable for a wide number of facts and analysis. That is what I have just written and that confuses you.
That is the reason why, "even if you would agree with me" for the 2nd point, the 1st point means that "it would not change anything" because we are on wp.
Would you mind posting a link where the full text of this resolution could be read? I could not find it on-line.
NoCal100 (
talk) 01:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)reply
You are right. That is why I added a "reference needed".
Ceedjee (
talk) 07:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Obviously Taimut has a link to a copy - she can post it.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I did not post the information, and accepted it in good faith, without digging further. But after you both raised concerns, I did some digging, and found nothing in the UN databases on the issue. It's possible their "Supplements" are not archived for public access or that I did not do the search correctly, but I could not confirm the information in UN primary sources.
I did find this
link in a google search, which seems to be the source for this information. The website is obviously not an
WP:RS, so I think that Ceedjee's tagging was a right step forward, and that the information should be deleted until it can be found in an
WP:RS.
Tiamuttalk 20:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I removed it, per the above discussion. Next - which reliable sources call it a "massacre"? It seems that the sources quote din the article call it a "bombing", or an "attack".
NoCal100 (
talk) 04:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Since no reliable sources have been presented which call it a massacre, I've renamed it. I notice that was done once before, and someone moved it back to "massacre" - please do not do that again unless it can be shown that a significant number of reliable sources call it a massacre.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)reply
"that turned out to be false"
I am quite confident that this sentence is just the author pov. I will check if I can find more information and will bring the wp:rs sources, if any. Ceedjee (
talk) 08:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Quibley
I think what Quibley reports is wp:undue.
except that, i don't see an wp:npov issue and we could remove the tag.
I don't think it's undue at all. But if you would like, we can attribute the statement directly to him, per
WP:NPOV and
WP:ATT.
Tiamuttalk 11:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
If we summarize by "The Mandatory authorities strongly condemned the action", ok. We could even write that the "The Mandatory authorities commented that the bombing was an "offence to civilisation", that I can source.
But the whole story about the discussion (with comments and replies) is useless. More, the end is particularly misleading because on 22 february, some men of al-Husseini put a bomb in the "Ben Yehuda market" that killed 53 people... If the British at that time could not know the future, we should not give voice to Quibley when he tries to argue that one side was kind and the other wicked. Or, at least, we have to add whole his analysis (as polemists) but not just the facts he biasedly reports.
Per NPOV, we represent all significant viewpoints on a subject. The viewpoint of the Mandatory authorities in significant. That of Quigley's is as well. If you have sources that express other viewpoints, please bring them forward. The information in Quigley's book is relevant to this article and is going in, attributed to him if necessary. There's no policy that discounts reporting "the facts he biasedly reports." The very essence of NPOV is not to "neutralize" people's statements, but to express as many POVs as possible. So bring it on. But keep what others add, attributed and sourced, in.
Tiamuttalk 00:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Christian persecution?
A few editors have added [[Category:Persecution of Christians]] to this page. I strongly disagree with applying that category to this page. The "Persecution of Christians" category is intended to be for articles that are about or related to intentional crimes/persecution against Christians as a result of their religion. This article contains only one reference to Christianity, and does not in any way suggest that the business was targeted due to the faith of the owners - quite the opposite, actually. If we broadly define "persecution of Christians" as every crime against a Christian ever, then I might as well go around and add every single article about a serial killer in the US to the category, as it's almost assured that at least one of their victims is Christian. As that
reductio ad absurdum hopefully convinces the editors involved, we should not define "persecution of Christians" so broadly as to include this article. Doing so would make the category meaningless. Please provide thoughts here so as to reach a consensus. ~ RobTalk 11:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
I agree that category should not be here. Undoing its deletion was an error of mine.
Zerotalk 12:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
I agree 100%. You explained the point better than me. I just reverted myself because Zero0000
warned me that I was breaking 1RR, despite I thought reverting anonymous IP wasn't included within 1RR. If nobody has a reasonable objection to remove the category, I'll do it myself after 24 hours. Unless there is no answer here and Zero or Rob decide to do it first.--
Averysoda (
talk) 21:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Alright, it looks like another editor has removed it for now. We can leave this discussion here, so that if anyone objects, we have it as a reference. Thanks for your input. ~ RobTalk 22:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the
Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You must be logged-in and
extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for
making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to
make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic
Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
the project page, where you can add your name to the
list of members where you can contribute to the
discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject British Empire, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
British Empire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.British EmpireWikipedia:WikiProject British EmpireTemplate:WikiProject British EmpireBritish Empire articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Terrorism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on
terrorism, individual terrorists, incidents and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks.TerrorismWikipedia:WikiProject TerrorismTemplate:WikiProject TerrorismTerrorism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
For wp:rs sources on historical articles, editors have to find historians.
Henry Cattan is not one. the encyclopaedia of Palestine even less and let's not talk about the Jaboc G. xxx.
I removed
Yoav Gelber who never writes p.78 of his book that "[the event] was aimed at sowing terror among the Arab population to drive them out of the city".
WP:NPOV requires to give all minds and for the title to use a wording satisfying all of them. If somebody is not sure to have access to all minds or if he cannot at least check, he should refrain from editing related articles in wikipedia.
After some reading, you will see only some talk about a massacre for this event and that "Semiranis hotel bombing" is far more appropriate.
Ceedjee (
talk) 20:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Well I disagree with your very strict interpretation of RS in this regard. I have added information from
John B. Quigley, he's an international lawyer. If you have a problem with it, I have no problem atributing it to his voice.
Also, I deleted your insertion on
Irgun, as the party Pappe lists as responsible for the Semirami Hotel. I'd appreciate it if you could provide the next three or four sentences after the excerpt you provided.
"In the first week of January alone, Irgun executed more terrorist attacks than in any period before. These included [the Sarraya house attack]. It continued with the bombing of the Semiranis hotel (...)".
It's not clear to me if Pappe is saying the Semiramis Hotel was the work the of the Irgun or not from the fragment you gave there. Thanks.
Tiamuttalk 23:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I think Pappe is referring to the Irgun. Anyway, I have another source that says so:
J. Bowyer Bell's Terror out of Zion. --
Nudve (
talk) 13:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Thank you Nudve.
The bombing was due to Haganah. No problem with that.
What do you mean by "due to Haganah"? --
Nudve (
talk) 14:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Haganah soldiers performed the attack, not Irgun.
4 specialists in explosives with the support of 10 others. If I remember well, they [claimed they] had to open fire to cover their escape.
Ceedjee (
talk) 15:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Source? --
Nudve (
talk) 15:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Update: Well, it seems like the Haganah did assume responsibility at the time
[1]. --
Nudve (
talk) 15:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Hi Nuvde,
The source was my memory, which is far from being a
wp:rs :-)
But... in
Dominique Lapierre and
Larry Collins, O Jerusalem, p.130 it is written : "The four-man demolition team would be covered by as quad of Haganah riflemen." and p.133 ; "Twenty-six people died in the explosion of the Semiramis Hotel."
This is from google.book. I have only the French version of the book. Sorry for that.
Ceedjee (
talk) 08:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Benny Morris, in Righteous Victims, also says Haganah. Does he discuss this in 1948? Anyway, we have two sources saying Irgun, so maybe we should treat this as conflicting views? --
Nudve (
talk) 08:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Hi Nuvde,
I missed something : what is the 2nd source that say it was Irgun ?
Pappé and ?
That was Haganah. There is no single doubt about that :-)
Ceedjee (
talk) 12:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)reply
As I said,
J. Bowyer Bell's Terror out of Zion. However, he only mentions it incidentally while discussing an Arab attack that took place later, so any source talking directly about it might be preferable. --
Nudve (
talk) 13:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Sorry. It was not clear to me.
It is good to add that "some commentators" (we cannot talk about scholars given they don't even know such a basic information) attribute the bombing to Irgun. Benny Morris, 1948 writes about this, p.104 writes : "The Haganah made other mistakes. On the night of 5-6 January 1948, a squad of sappers (...) blew up a part of Semiramis Hotel, suspected of housing an Arab irregulars headquarters." Ceedjee (
talk) 18:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Thanks. Morris's is the most recent study, so it's probably the most reliable. --
Nudve (
talk) 07:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I have to disagree.
Anybody who studied a minimum the events knows that Haganah performed that attack as well as the circumstances.
A MS student in M-E history would have been sacked for such a mistake.
But we are not MS student. We just report wp:rs information.
Ceedjee (
talk) 09:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Not sure I understand. Morris says it was the Haganah, and I say Morris is reliable. So what is it that you disagree with? --
Nudve (
talk) 15:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Sorry. Sometimes I am not clear.
You wrote : "so it's probably the most reliable".
I agree Morris is reliable but not fully with your statement because it would mean the others we talked about would also be reliable, which I disagree with.
Which ones would you consider unreliable and why? --
Nudve (
talk) 05:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Hi Nuvde,
even if you would agree with me, it would not change anything.
I don't mind much the consequences of the 1948 War on the I-P conflict. I just mind history. ::::::In that context, Ilan Pappé is terrible. I still don't know if he is just incompetent, a liar, or both.
Ceedjee (
talk) 07:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Now I'm confused. Earlier
you said that he is reliable. --
Nudve (
talk) 07:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)reply
For wikipedia today,
Ilan Pappé is a
wp:rs source. That is what I wrote here above and to which you refer.
For me and I am convinced all serious historians without agenda,
Ilan Pappé is not reliable for a wide number of facts and analysis. That is what I have just written and that confuses you.
That is the reason why, "even if you would agree with me" for the 2nd point, the 1st point means that "it would not change anything" because we are on wp.
Would you mind posting a link where the full text of this resolution could be read? I could not find it on-line.
NoCal100 (
talk) 01:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)reply
You are right. That is why I added a "reference needed".
Ceedjee (
talk) 07:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Obviously Taimut has a link to a copy - she can post it.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I did not post the information, and accepted it in good faith, without digging further. But after you both raised concerns, I did some digging, and found nothing in the UN databases on the issue. It's possible their "Supplements" are not archived for public access or that I did not do the search correctly, but I could not confirm the information in UN primary sources.
I did find this
link in a google search, which seems to be the source for this information. The website is obviously not an
WP:RS, so I think that Ceedjee's tagging was a right step forward, and that the information should be deleted until it can be found in an
WP:RS.
Tiamuttalk 20:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)reply
I removed it, per the above discussion. Next - which reliable sources call it a "massacre"? It seems that the sources quote din the article call it a "bombing", or an "attack".
NoCal100 (
talk) 04:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Since no reliable sources have been presented which call it a massacre, I've renamed it. I notice that was done once before, and someone moved it back to "massacre" - please do not do that again unless it can be shown that a significant number of reliable sources call it a massacre.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)reply
"that turned out to be false"
I am quite confident that this sentence is just the author pov. I will check if I can find more information and will bring the wp:rs sources, if any. Ceedjee (
talk) 08:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Quibley
I think what Quibley reports is wp:undue.
except that, i don't see an wp:npov issue and we could remove the tag.
I don't think it's undue at all. But if you would like, we can attribute the statement directly to him, per
WP:NPOV and
WP:ATT.
Tiamuttalk 11:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)reply
If we summarize by "The Mandatory authorities strongly condemned the action", ok. We could even write that the "The Mandatory authorities commented that the bombing was an "offence to civilisation", that I can source.
But the whole story about the discussion (with comments and replies) is useless. More, the end is particularly misleading because on 22 february, some men of al-Husseini put a bomb in the "Ben Yehuda market" that killed 53 people... If the British at that time could not know the future, we should not give voice to Quibley when he tries to argue that one side was kind and the other wicked. Or, at least, we have to add whole his analysis (as polemists) but not just the facts he biasedly reports.
Per NPOV, we represent all significant viewpoints on a subject. The viewpoint of the Mandatory authorities in significant. That of Quigley's is as well. If you have sources that express other viewpoints, please bring them forward. The information in Quigley's book is relevant to this article and is going in, attributed to him if necessary. There's no policy that discounts reporting "the facts he biasedly reports." The very essence of NPOV is not to "neutralize" people's statements, but to express as many POVs as possible. So bring it on. But keep what others add, attributed and sourced, in.
Tiamuttalk 00:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)reply
Christian persecution?
A few editors have added [[Category:Persecution of Christians]] to this page. I strongly disagree with applying that category to this page. The "Persecution of Christians" category is intended to be for articles that are about or related to intentional crimes/persecution against Christians as a result of their religion. This article contains only one reference to Christianity, and does not in any way suggest that the business was targeted due to the faith of the owners - quite the opposite, actually. If we broadly define "persecution of Christians" as every crime against a Christian ever, then I might as well go around and add every single article about a serial killer in the US to the category, as it's almost assured that at least one of their victims is Christian. As that
reductio ad absurdum hopefully convinces the editors involved, we should not define "persecution of Christians" so broadly as to include this article. Doing so would make the category meaningless. Please provide thoughts here so as to reach a consensus. ~ RobTalk 11:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
I agree that category should not be here. Undoing its deletion was an error of mine.
Zerotalk 12:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
I agree 100%. You explained the point better than me. I just reverted myself because Zero0000
warned me that I was breaking 1RR, despite I thought reverting anonymous IP wasn't included within 1RR. If nobody has a reasonable objection to remove the category, I'll do it myself after 24 hours. Unless there is no answer here and Zero or Rob decide to do it first.--
Averysoda (
talk) 21:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply
Alright, it looks like another editor has removed it for now. We can leave this discussion here, so that if anyone objects, we have it as a reference. Thanks for your input. ~ RobTalk 22:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)reply