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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The article seriously mis-quotes a reference, when saying:
`` According to the Seljuqs, they brought to the Muslims "fighting spirit and fanatical aggression".[27]
although the quote is accurate (Previte-Orton (1971), vol.1, pg. 278), in the original source, this is simply the opinion of the author (Previte-Orton), rather than a statement attributed to Seljuqs themselves. Moreover, even according to Pervite-Orton, Seljuqs brought the "fighting spirit and fanatical aggression" to the empire (i.e. to a political entity), rather than to the Muslims in general. As a result, I have removed the quote as it was. If anyone feels that it contributes to the article, I think it needs to be quoted more accurately before being re-introduced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Movsjanka ( talk • contribs) 12:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I would like an explanation as to why the IPs are removing references, referenced information, referenced quotes. This appears to be anti-Persian POV editing. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:22, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
It's always some Pro-Turkish (not trying to insult all Turkish people) who misunderstand what Persianate means. Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 23:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
I strongly recommend deleting the adverbe Highly, i also checked the resources cited but did not detect anything like Highly Persianized, it looks like a fictitious description. Also i would like to express that the validity of encyclopedia iranica is controversial...
Besides this, Dear User:Kansas Bear, i would also like to show you this socks; User:2607:F358:21:10F:68C2:44B4:692D:E3A9, User:2607:F358:21:BD:695B:A324:9C0B:B29B as examples of the anti-turkish propaganda going on in wikipedia. In addition, please stop blaming me with being socks of some turkish user, ı am not even from turkey just check my ıp.
-- 130.88.99.230 ( talk) 21:05, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
1.I strongly recommend you stop edit warring over numerous articles. Since your edit warring mirrors the edits of a blocked user.
2.Your opinion of Encyclopedia Iranica is meaningless. When the authors of said articles are academics, you really have nothing to back your argument.
3."Highly" indicates the level by which Persian, Persian culture was used by the Seljuk Empire. And yet you have not brought any argument why this word should not be used.
4.As for the blatant sockpuppetry, I would suggest you read
Wikipedia:DUCK. I never anything about a Turkish user. You did. Freudian slip there IP. I reported what is clearly an IP making the same edit as a blocked user.
5.It is clear you have a
personal issue with the word Persia, Persian, etc. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
21:25, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
2. If you directly accept every academic article as trusted resources i can put over hundred turkish article here which describes seljuk empire as only turkish.
3. I am telling you again, none of the resources cited under number [13] for the description Highly Persiante doesnt include any word as HIGHLY, so my dear friend, it means that highly of the highly persianate is fictitious...
4. If you would even just open the link of users i gave, my dear lazy friend, you would see that they are blaming me for being a turkish sock, thanks to God, i didnt have any freudian slip.
5. I definetly dont have any issue with the world persian, but yes i have some issues with persian ultranationalistic socks who are trying to convert this place to the Encyclopedia İranica which describes everything in the world as persian. lol.
--
130.88.99.230 (
talk)
21:38, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
lol
User:Kansas Bear, just look at that, which is going on just now, with this user
2607:F358:21:BE:44E2:1CAD:84BA:6AB5 , another anonymous persian sock attacking to the articles about Turkic peoples history, i dont have time to deal with this well organizad gang everyday, but if you are an honest user which really cares about wikipedias neutrality, maybe you can do something.. Thats all im saying...--
130.88.99.230 (
talk)
21:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The resources are clearly speaking about a Turco-Persian tradition in this empire, not about a Turco-Persian Empire, there is nothing called Turco-Persian Empire, you can't find 1 resource saying Turco-Persian Empire, this expression is completely wrong and most probably has some nationalistic intentions. The word "Tradition" shouldn't be hidden from the article, when you click on Turco-Persian it even redirects to Turko-Persian_tradition page, so what are discussing about ? Please, dont hesitate to discuss how to include Turco-Persian Tradition expression on page, i said "contributed to Turco-Persian Tradition" but other expressions may be possible too. Let's discuss it here.-- Defenderofthruth ( talk) 12:27, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Even though the article itself states that the Oghuz Turks founded the empire and academic resources and resources like Britannica state this fact, why do you remove the Turkic-origins? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.131.129.81 ( talk) 21:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
] Kansas Bear, you are a Liar. you are trying to change and steal turkish history and culture. your racist and jelous claims will not change turkish empires and their history . cry out more please you are entertaining us.you want to show turkish empires as iranian . hahah you have some mental problems.please be normal and stop vandalizing turkish history —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.24.202.72 ( talk) 04:52, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Kansas Bear, in my opinion you're making a Persian Propaganda here, below you can find some reputable resources and none of them doesn't include any statement about Seljuk empire being Persian or Turco-Persian but Turkish (they generally define the Persian relation with this empire as: The Seljuk Turks rule over Persia [1] ).
None of the scholars and their sources define the Empire as Turco-Persian; at the most as a Turkish Empire influenced by Persian Culture.It's quite understandable that you're trying to make your nationalist propaganda here, but wikipedia is not a place for this so i invite you being nonpartisan about historical facts. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6].
I would also like to announce that you will be reported to the admins. Also shame on you for your highly noticable Persian propaganda and for concealing facts in a independent and neutral common resource as Wikipedia.
Regards.
-- Yakbul ( talk) 20:46, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yakbul (
talk •
contribs)
20:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
If you are honest about that "Turko-Persian is a culture not an ethnicity.", why not indicating it on article; because the current version of article directly starts with saying "The Seljuk Empire was a medieval Turko-Persian empire" which causes people to think ethnicity more than the culture. If you are honest, we can at least change this with "The Seljuk Empire was a medieval, culturally Turko-Persian empire"
-- 130.88.99.230 ( talk) 21:24, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
You do realize the Persian language was patronized and was the court language of the Ottoman Empire.(Canfield, Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective, page 19).
Seljuks could not become Persianate. 1. Persianate is a culture, not an ethnicity. Persianate =/= Persian ethnicity. The Seljuk Turks patronized Persian culture, used the Persian language, and essentially created Turko-Persian culture.
"The Ottomans patronized Persian literature for five and a half centuries.[...] Unlike Iran they[Ottomans] gradually shed some of their Persianate qualities: they were the first of the gunpowder empires to give up Persian as the court language, using instead Turkish - that is, the vernacular of the western Turks..." -- Canfield, Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective, page 19.
That is quite the racist statement.
Wrong. See Canfield quoted above.
Nope. I base my information on academic sources. You know those things you clearly ignored while posting your nationalistic rant. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 04:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
First read this book. That is an academic sources just about The Great Seljuk Empire not Seljuk Empire like Great Britain not Britian. You find claims which try to explain the connections of Turks and other ethnic people and you are making propaganda on wikipedia by choosing the sentences. By choosing the sentences you are making perception policy. If you read Canfield book completely, you will understand the main issue. Canfield book not about The Great Seljuk Empire. It is about the connections of Turks and other ethnic people. I dont know the aim of you and why you are trying to make a Turkish state an Iranian state. But if you read the article on wikipedia, someone can understand The Great Seljuk Empire is not Turkish Empire. You are changing the truths. But everybody knows that The Great Seljuk Empire was the Turkish state not a Turko-Persian state. Everybody can angry about you because you're playing with people's history. You are shame of wikipedia and because of the people like you everybody hate wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antmqr ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The article has been taken over by an user Kansas Bear. He is not one open discussion. It is not an actual article. It is a fiction article of Kansas Bear. He is trying to impose wrong information about The Great Seljuk Empire. According to Andrew Charles Spencer The Great Seljuk Empire was the Turkish state. [1] Kansas Bear rewrites history as he wants. He tries to make the state Turko-Persian State. My english is not enough. Please somebody helps about the subject!
@ Antmqr: WP:FORUM, using multiple accounts and IPs, and personal attacks don't help you. Read WP:NOT. Our rules and policies are clear. This is an encyclopedia not a cheap forum. You can't attack and insult other editors just because they don't accept your edits/POV. -- Zyma ( talk) 04:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
Zyma I have one account, one IP, my signiture is same for years. He is changing the truth and he deletes the sentences with references because of the fact that he doesn't like the truth. Evreything is clear. This is not an encyclopedic article, this is his review. He is attacking the users and keeping his review format. So I will never read this article again. I am aware of the site. This site has to be out of person independent. But this article is yes. So this is not my problem. This is universal problem. My english is not enough to write many things. Have a good day. Antmqr ( talk) 07:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
References
I tried to correct this but my edit seems to have been undone. Turkification is the correct term for the process of a people adopting the language, culture, customs etc of Turks, not Turkicization (there is no such word in the English language).
Additionally, the Persian spelling سلجوقيان is Saljuqiyan (Se, lam, jim, vav, qaf, ye, alef, nun), not Salcuqiyan (The letter c does not exist in Farsi at all, and as a native Persian speaker I have never seen it used in transliterations). — Preceding unsigned comment added by SvoHljott ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
Put the Turkish name First in Turko-Persian dynasties
Blahhhas (
talk)
18:59, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
@ Kouhi: You don't want to discuss about the new name you brought, you want to report other people because only your way has to go through, I will be the bigger man and let you have your candy in the meantime, you are welcomed here to discuss the problem with the references you accuse. First issue I have with the name is that it is the name of the Empire, it simply translates to Kings of Seljuks or Rulers of Seljuks, the previous name was more correct and it lacked properer reference. Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 05:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Seljuk empire-Seljuk Turks military and army language not persian.yes persian language official language but they were not persian speaking . In everyday speech-army-military language Oghuz Turkic.they where persian culture and language adopted.they are not assimilate and persianate.
persianized=assimilate Turkified=assimilate Arabized=assimilate
they culture warrior culture. so the army and the Oghuz Turkic military has always been the language.The military say that language is really funny persian.
seljuk empire dynastic-military-army-In everyday language=Oghuz Turkic religion-law-theology and science language=Arabic language official-court language-lingua franca = Persian language persian language not military and dynastic language.it official language.
Seljuk dynasty has used its own language in everyday speech. /info/en/?search=Oghuz_Yabgu_State http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Seljuk_Turks http://www.themiddleages.net/people/seljuks.html http://erenow.com/books/Warinworldhistory/39.html http://www.insightturkey.com/the-seljuks-of-anatolia-court-and-society-in-the-medieval-middle-east/book-reviews/1498 turko-persian=culture They persian culture adopted.this dynasty not Turko-Persian.Seljuk dynasty not assimilated.
There are many books written about the Seljuks.You can research. The military said that the Persian language of the Seljuk really ridiculous.-- Osman bey ( talk) 12:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I gave the source along with former Turkey Turkish alphabet recitation and I added the Turkish text(along with source).
Turkish people on this issue as it concerns directly to
so I added the Turkish text.
issue must be included in the language if it concerns a direct reading of a community.
for example:
There are many examples in this regard.the grandchildren of the empire.
alphabet and the language they use today.
then the language has nothing to do.
which is relevant here is that concern society.
so it must be added Turkish reading--
Osman bey (
talk)
12:17, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Wario-Man: You just restored the Turkish spelling in the infobox, may I ask you why? This parameter is "native name", and Modern Turkish with Latin alphabet wasn't their "native" language and, beside that, this language has nothing to do with Saljuqs (their language was Saljuq Turkish and there is no surviving evidence of that language as far as I know). It is like adding Modern Persian spelling with Perso-Arabic script to Parthian Empire. I think those who support adding Turkish spelling should cite a reliable source and show that the Turkish spelling is somehow relevant to this article. Oghuz Turkish may be relevant and it could be added to the article if we can find a source for the spelling (to be sure that it is not a made-up and fantasy spelling), but Modern Turkish is really irrelevant. -- Kouhi ( talk) 04:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
They Spoke old Anatolian Turkish. 88.240.9.226 ( talk) 11:46, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
It was sultanate of Rum.
Pertys (
talk)
12:01, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
We should add it as "Modern Turkish" but I don't know how to do it.
Even2311 (
talk)
The "last stable version" would be before people started adding fictional "eagles" without reference. Please hold everyone to high standards regarding WP:RS. If there is a recorded Turkish/Turkic name for the state recorded contemporarily, let's see a reference for it. Then add it. If you have no decent reference, you have no business editing anything whatsoever. -- dab (𒁳) 17:34, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
You should quote the relevant part of the book in the article. We don't know what it says about Arabic. Modern Cyrillic alphabet for Mongol Empire is also false, but I don't care about that article. Unless you don't cite a reliable source for Turkish, it has the same degree of relevance as Japanese. -- Kouhi ( talk) 11:43, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Kouhi:, Great Seljuk Empire is from Kınıks of Oguz tribes. Their Sultans were always Turk. If your history is strong already, you can see that war, trade and other events leads cultural interaction. It's clearly in sources that there were interaction with persians but it does not change that Seljuks were Turk. On the other hand shortly after fall of Great Seljuk Empire, Anatolian Seljuk State was founded and after that Ottoman Empire was founded. Everything is chained. Great Seljuki Empire and previous states are foundnation of the Republik of Turkey and they are Turk. Their language is also Turkish. Removing Turkish from drop box and leaving only Persian there, is clearly ignorance and hostlility. You urgently need to return from your vandal attitude.-- Urungu97 ( talk) 15:45, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
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Instead of a questionable primary source:
All which use Āl-e Saljuq.
I would strongly suggest to Franrasyan to refrain from logging out to edit war their POV into this article. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
20:22, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
The AFD closed as merge asking for any sourced content to be merged into this one. This article is quite well developed so I am wary of adding this will make it
WP:Undue. Therefor I am copying the only sourced section here so regular editors of this article can decide how to incorporate it. Remember that if you do use this you need to put Merged from
Seljuq Armenia
in the edit summary to maintain attribution (the link is also required). Thank you.
AIRcorn
(talk)
22:14, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
The Seljuq dynasty under Alp Arslan took the city of Ani in 1064. [1] In 1071, after the defeat of the Byzantine forces by the Seljuq Turks at the Battle of Manzikert, the Turks captured the rest of Greater Armenia and much of Anatolia. [2] So ended Christian leadership of Armenia for the next millennium with the exception of a period of the late 12th-early 13th centuries, when the Muslim power in Greater Armenia was seriously troubled by the resurgent Georgian monarchy. Many local nobles (nakharars) joined their efforts with the Georgians, leading to liberation of several areas in northern Armenia, which was ruled, under the authority of the Georgian crown, by the Zacharids/ Mkhargrdzeli, a prominent Armeno-Georgian noble family. [3]
- ^ "Alp Arslan". Archived from the original on 2011-08-27. Retrieved February 6, 2007.
{{ cite web}}
: Unknown parameter|deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) ( help)- ^ "Byzantium and Its Influence on Neighboring Peoples". Archived from the original on 2011-08-27. Retrieved February 8, 2007.
{{ cite web}}
: Unknown parameter|deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) ( help)- ^ Dissertation, Appendix A, Supplementary Notes on the 11-13th Century Naxarars, Turco-Mongolica, History, Historical, Medieval, Armenia, Armenian, Georgia, Georgian, Mongolian,...
Hi LouisAragon. I've restored the English transliteration of آل سلجوق (i.e., Āl-e Saljuq) per WP:TRANSLITERATE which states "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet...must be transliterated." However, I hope that we can restore the Turkish and Turkmen names of the subject per WP:ALTNAME which states:
significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages.
The Seljuk Empire was a Oghuz Turkic empire, with capitals based in modern Turkey and Turkmenistan. Which, not coincidentally, are also Oghuz speaking countries. Their renditions of the name, I do believe, are "significant". See the article on Vikings which includes the local renditions of Viking in "( Old English: wicing—"pirate", Danish and Bokmål: vikinger; Swedish and Nynorsk: vikingar; Icelandic: víkingar, from Old Norse)". The same should apply here. The Sultanate of Rum, and in turn the Ottomans, descended from the Seljuk Empire. So there is a lineage with modern Turkey. The infobox already includes, with citation, Oghuz Turkish as a language of the Empire alongside Persian.
In general, the synonym Great Seljuq Empire, should be included as a "significant alternative name". Inclusion of alt names is usually common on article ledes. Any thoughts? DA1 ( talk) 12:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran apparently thinks a turkic empire should only have a persian version of its name and not a turkish nor any other oghuz name. I wonder what you're going to say this time as a reason? I hope you don't say the word "revisionism" again in wrong context as usual CuriousGolden ( talk) 13:12, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran What are you trying to get from costing Seljuk Empire for your chauvinistic ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AttilaAkay ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
There some archive discussion about the name on Talk:Seljuk Empire/Archive 2. Better @ Kansas Bear: because he was involved in this specific Talk:Seljuk Empire/Archive 2#Āl-e Saljuq discussion. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 10:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
I am calling for consistency. Wikipedia makes a distinction between the Seljuq dynasty and the Seljuk Empire. The contemporary Persian term, Al-e Saljuq, is apparently a literal translation of House of Seljuk, i.e. Seljuk dynasty. So why have it in this article? And if we were to add the non-contemporary Persian translation for the Seljuk Empire, we should be able to add the non-contemporary Turkish translation as well considering the fact it was the Seljuk Turks who created Turkey. -- Endleofan 15:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
I don't think its really relevant to mention the (alleged) religion of the Seljuks in the opening paragraph as Persia was officially secular during the Seljuk period and adjacent time periods. Also, the Seljuks, as with other adjacent dynasties, were not religious fundamentalists as is evident in their contemporary literature and art, which makes religion less worthy of emphasis in the opening line. Furthermore, the state religion is mentioned in the info box, so anyone that clicks on the article can see this either way. I'm in favor of removing religion from opening paragraph as it appears to be standard in these types of articles. Please comment below for or against. Xoltron ( talk) 07:46, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Nnadigoodluck ███ 12:14, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Seljuk Empire → Seljuq Empire – Per WP:TITLECON ( Seljuq dynasty, Mahmud I of Great Seljuq, Anatolian Seljuqs family tree, etc). Appears to be the common name and the spelling that is most frequently used. Keivan.f Talk 06:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Why is this removed from the lead? It's a lot used academically. Beshogur ( talk) 17:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Getting tired of IPs/new users constantly trying to force that most likely fictional flag and coat of arms into the article without adding any source whatsoever. Here's what the The later Ghaznavids (page 56) by C. E. Bosworth states:
"Another practice of Ibrahim's which may have been influenced by that of the Seljuqs, and by Ibrahim's connections with Malik Shah, is the Ghaznavid sultan's having a lion device on his banner (rayat), if a line of Abu'l-Faraj Runi is to be believed: Like the lion device on a banner, the bold braggart has no heart; like a gazelle's horn, the branch of his tree is without fruit. The Persian poets of the Seljuqs certainly make frequent reference to the lion device on their masters' flags, for example in the odes of Anwari addressed to Sanjar and his military commander epigoni in Khurasan."
No mention of any kind of bird.
-- HistoryofIran ( talk) 04:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
The details look very thorough but the numbering is extremely confusing. Do the numbers indicate branches of empire ruled by contemporaries? If they indicate succession, why does #1 appear several times? It would help a lot if there was a key or explanation at the bottom. Martindo ( talk) 01:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I am going to add an entire section on Seljuk art in the coming days. There is currently nothing written in that section, so I will be editing to primarily add information about both non-secular and secular Seljuk manuscripts. Other information that I plan to include (though less of) entails Seljuk ceramics and architecture.
Please let me know if you have any questions or would like to start a discussion with me about the edits that I plan to make!
Millsnaps ( talk) 21:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)Millsnaps
In class [we] had to make a map of some empires from 1200-1400, including the seljuks
But here, the "History of the Turkic Peoples" template says that the seljuks existed from 1037 to 1194!?
Eventually something was provided to finish the map ( https://www.freeman-pedia.com/dar-al-islam-global-tapestry). AltoStev Talk 15:03, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
There's been a bit of edit-warring on alternate names in the lead regarding whether or not to mention "Saljuq" as a second spelling. There are quite a lot of different spellings/variations of the name and of course "Seljuk" is certainly the most common. The alternatives, in no particular order, include:
Seljuq,
Saljuq,
Saljuk,
Saljuqid,
Seljuqid,
Seljukid, and maybe more. Some of these must be pretty marginal, but suffice to say there are multiple ones that are used in reliable sources and that therefore could be mentioned. Can I suggest that these names be mentioned in a footnote instead (e.g. right after "or the Seljuk Empire")? That way the lead doesn't get bogged down in mentioning all the different spellings and there's plenty of room to add many names in a footnote without arguing too much about which ones should be prioritized. Cheers,
R Prazeres (
talk)
16:57, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
PS: If a consensus is reached here, we may also want to consider whether it can be applied to the lead of the
Seljuk dynasty article as well.
R Prazeres (
talk)
18:05, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 April 2021 and 26 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Millsnaps. Peer reviewers: Figapartmenttoast, Autonomous owl ch.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The article seriously mis-quotes a reference, when saying:
`` According to the Seljuqs, they brought to the Muslims "fighting spirit and fanatical aggression".[27]
although the quote is accurate (Previte-Orton (1971), vol.1, pg. 278), in the original source, this is simply the opinion of the author (Previte-Orton), rather than a statement attributed to Seljuqs themselves. Moreover, even according to Pervite-Orton, Seljuqs brought the "fighting spirit and fanatical aggression" to the empire (i.e. to a political entity), rather than to the Muslims in general. As a result, I have removed the quote as it was. If anyone feels that it contributes to the article, I think it needs to be quoted more accurately before being re-introduced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Movsjanka ( talk • contribs) 12:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I would like an explanation as to why the IPs are removing references, referenced information, referenced quotes. This appears to be anti-Persian POV editing. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:22, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
It's always some Pro-Turkish (not trying to insult all Turkish people) who misunderstand what Persianate means. Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 23:24, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
I strongly recommend deleting the adverbe Highly, i also checked the resources cited but did not detect anything like Highly Persianized, it looks like a fictitious description. Also i would like to express that the validity of encyclopedia iranica is controversial...
Besides this, Dear User:Kansas Bear, i would also like to show you this socks; User:2607:F358:21:10F:68C2:44B4:692D:E3A9, User:2607:F358:21:BD:695B:A324:9C0B:B29B as examples of the anti-turkish propaganda going on in wikipedia. In addition, please stop blaming me with being socks of some turkish user, ı am not even from turkey just check my ıp.
-- 130.88.99.230 ( talk) 21:05, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
1.I strongly recommend you stop edit warring over numerous articles. Since your edit warring mirrors the edits of a blocked user.
2.Your opinion of Encyclopedia Iranica is meaningless. When the authors of said articles are academics, you really have nothing to back your argument.
3."Highly" indicates the level by which Persian, Persian culture was used by the Seljuk Empire. And yet you have not brought any argument why this word should not be used.
4.As for the blatant sockpuppetry, I would suggest you read
Wikipedia:DUCK. I never anything about a Turkish user. You did. Freudian slip there IP. I reported what is clearly an IP making the same edit as a blocked user.
5.It is clear you have a
personal issue with the word Persia, Persian, etc. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
21:25, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
2. If you directly accept every academic article as trusted resources i can put over hundred turkish article here which describes seljuk empire as only turkish.
3. I am telling you again, none of the resources cited under number [13] for the description Highly Persiante doesnt include any word as HIGHLY, so my dear friend, it means that highly of the highly persianate is fictitious...
4. If you would even just open the link of users i gave, my dear lazy friend, you would see that they are blaming me for being a turkish sock, thanks to God, i didnt have any freudian slip.
5. I definetly dont have any issue with the world persian, but yes i have some issues with persian ultranationalistic socks who are trying to convert this place to the Encyclopedia İranica which describes everything in the world as persian. lol.
--
130.88.99.230 (
talk)
21:38, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
lol
User:Kansas Bear, just look at that, which is going on just now, with this user
2607:F358:21:BE:44E2:1CAD:84BA:6AB5 , another anonymous persian sock attacking to the articles about Turkic peoples history, i dont have time to deal with this well organizad gang everyday, but if you are an honest user which really cares about wikipedias neutrality, maybe you can do something.. Thats all im saying...--
130.88.99.230 (
talk)
21:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The resources are clearly speaking about a Turco-Persian tradition in this empire, not about a Turco-Persian Empire, there is nothing called Turco-Persian Empire, you can't find 1 resource saying Turco-Persian Empire, this expression is completely wrong and most probably has some nationalistic intentions. The word "Tradition" shouldn't be hidden from the article, when you click on Turco-Persian it even redirects to Turko-Persian_tradition page, so what are discussing about ? Please, dont hesitate to discuss how to include Turco-Persian Tradition expression on page, i said "contributed to Turco-Persian Tradition" but other expressions may be possible too. Let's discuss it here.-- Defenderofthruth ( talk) 12:27, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Even though the article itself states that the Oghuz Turks founded the empire and academic resources and resources like Britannica state this fact, why do you remove the Turkic-origins? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.131.129.81 ( talk) 21:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
] Kansas Bear, you are a Liar. you are trying to change and steal turkish history and culture. your racist and jelous claims will not change turkish empires and their history . cry out more please you are entertaining us.you want to show turkish empires as iranian . hahah you have some mental problems.please be normal and stop vandalizing turkish history —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.24.202.72 ( talk) 04:52, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Kansas Bear, in my opinion you're making a Persian Propaganda here, below you can find some reputable resources and none of them doesn't include any statement about Seljuk empire being Persian or Turco-Persian but Turkish (they generally define the Persian relation with this empire as: The Seljuk Turks rule over Persia [1] ).
None of the scholars and their sources define the Empire as Turco-Persian; at the most as a Turkish Empire influenced by Persian Culture.It's quite understandable that you're trying to make your nationalist propaganda here, but wikipedia is not a place for this so i invite you being nonpartisan about historical facts. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6].
I would also like to announce that you will be reported to the admins. Also shame on you for your highly noticable Persian propaganda and for concealing facts in a independent and neutral common resource as Wikipedia.
Regards.
-- Yakbul ( talk) 20:46, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Yakbul (
talk •
contribs)
20:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
If you are honest about that "Turko-Persian is a culture not an ethnicity.", why not indicating it on article; because the current version of article directly starts with saying "The Seljuk Empire was a medieval Turko-Persian empire" which causes people to think ethnicity more than the culture. If you are honest, we can at least change this with "The Seljuk Empire was a medieval, culturally Turko-Persian empire"
-- 130.88.99.230 ( talk) 21:24, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
You do realize the Persian language was patronized and was the court language of the Ottoman Empire.(Canfield, Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective, page 19).
Seljuks could not become Persianate. 1. Persianate is a culture, not an ethnicity. Persianate =/= Persian ethnicity. The Seljuk Turks patronized Persian culture, used the Persian language, and essentially created Turko-Persian culture.
"The Ottomans patronized Persian literature for five and a half centuries.[...] Unlike Iran they[Ottomans] gradually shed some of their Persianate qualities: they were the first of the gunpowder empires to give up Persian as the court language, using instead Turkish - that is, the vernacular of the western Turks..." -- Canfield, Turko-Persia in Historical Perspective, page 19.
That is quite the racist statement.
Wrong. See Canfield quoted above.
Nope. I base my information on academic sources. You know those things you clearly ignored while posting your nationalistic rant. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 04:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
First read this book. That is an academic sources just about The Great Seljuk Empire not Seljuk Empire like Great Britain not Britian. You find claims which try to explain the connections of Turks and other ethnic people and you are making propaganda on wikipedia by choosing the sentences. By choosing the sentences you are making perception policy. If you read Canfield book completely, you will understand the main issue. Canfield book not about The Great Seljuk Empire. It is about the connections of Turks and other ethnic people. I dont know the aim of you and why you are trying to make a Turkish state an Iranian state. But if you read the article on wikipedia, someone can understand The Great Seljuk Empire is not Turkish Empire. You are changing the truths. But everybody knows that The Great Seljuk Empire was the Turkish state not a Turko-Persian state. Everybody can angry about you because you're playing with people's history. You are shame of wikipedia and because of the people like you everybody hate wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antmqr ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The article has been taken over by an user Kansas Bear. He is not one open discussion. It is not an actual article. It is a fiction article of Kansas Bear. He is trying to impose wrong information about The Great Seljuk Empire. According to Andrew Charles Spencer The Great Seljuk Empire was the Turkish state. [1] Kansas Bear rewrites history as he wants. He tries to make the state Turko-Persian State. My english is not enough. Please somebody helps about the subject!
@ Antmqr: WP:FORUM, using multiple accounts and IPs, and personal attacks don't help you. Read WP:NOT. Our rules and policies are clear. This is an encyclopedia not a cheap forum. You can't attack and insult other editors just because they don't accept your edits/POV. -- Zyma ( talk) 04:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
Zyma I have one account, one IP, my signiture is same for years. He is changing the truth and he deletes the sentences with references because of the fact that he doesn't like the truth. Evreything is clear. This is not an encyclopedic article, this is his review. He is attacking the users and keeping his review format. So I will never read this article again. I am aware of the site. This site has to be out of person independent. But this article is yes. So this is not my problem. This is universal problem. My english is not enough to write many things. Have a good day. Antmqr ( talk) 07:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
References
I tried to correct this but my edit seems to have been undone. Turkification is the correct term for the process of a people adopting the language, culture, customs etc of Turks, not Turkicization (there is no such word in the English language).
Additionally, the Persian spelling سلجوقيان is Saljuqiyan (Se, lam, jim, vav, qaf, ye, alef, nun), not Salcuqiyan (The letter c does not exist in Farsi at all, and as a native Persian speaker I have never seen it used in transliterations). — Preceding unsigned comment added by SvoHljott ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
Put the Turkish name First in Turko-Persian dynasties
Blahhhas (
talk)
18:59, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
@ Kouhi: You don't want to discuss about the new name you brought, you want to report other people because only your way has to go through, I will be the bigger man and let you have your candy in the meantime, you are welcomed here to discuss the problem with the references you accuse. First issue I have with the name is that it is the name of the Empire, it simply translates to Kings of Seljuks or Rulers of Seljuks, the previous name was more correct and it lacked properer reference. Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 05:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Seljuk empire-Seljuk Turks military and army language not persian.yes persian language official language but they were not persian speaking . In everyday speech-army-military language Oghuz Turkic.they where persian culture and language adopted.they are not assimilate and persianate.
persianized=assimilate Turkified=assimilate Arabized=assimilate
they culture warrior culture. so the army and the Oghuz Turkic military has always been the language.The military say that language is really funny persian.
seljuk empire dynastic-military-army-In everyday language=Oghuz Turkic religion-law-theology and science language=Arabic language official-court language-lingua franca = Persian language persian language not military and dynastic language.it official language.
Seljuk dynasty has used its own language in everyday speech. /info/en/?search=Oghuz_Yabgu_State http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Seljuk_Turks http://www.themiddleages.net/people/seljuks.html http://erenow.com/books/Warinworldhistory/39.html http://www.insightturkey.com/the-seljuks-of-anatolia-court-and-society-in-the-medieval-middle-east/book-reviews/1498 turko-persian=culture They persian culture adopted.this dynasty not Turko-Persian.Seljuk dynasty not assimilated.
There are many books written about the Seljuks.You can research. The military said that the Persian language of the Seljuk really ridiculous.-- Osman bey ( talk) 12:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I gave the source along with former Turkey Turkish alphabet recitation and I added the Turkish text(along with source).
Turkish people on this issue as it concerns directly to
so I added the Turkish text.
issue must be included in the language if it concerns a direct reading of a community.
for example:
There are many examples in this regard.the grandchildren of the empire.
alphabet and the language they use today.
then the language has nothing to do.
which is relevant here is that concern society.
so it must be added Turkish reading--
Osman bey (
talk)
12:17, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Wario-Man: You just restored the Turkish spelling in the infobox, may I ask you why? This parameter is "native name", and Modern Turkish with Latin alphabet wasn't their "native" language and, beside that, this language has nothing to do with Saljuqs (their language was Saljuq Turkish and there is no surviving evidence of that language as far as I know). It is like adding Modern Persian spelling with Perso-Arabic script to Parthian Empire. I think those who support adding Turkish spelling should cite a reliable source and show that the Turkish spelling is somehow relevant to this article. Oghuz Turkish may be relevant and it could be added to the article if we can find a source for the spelling (to be sure that it is not a made-up and fantasy spelling), but Modern Turkish is really irrelevant. -- Kouhi ( talk) 04:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
They Spoke old Anatolian Turkish. 88.240.9.226 ( talk) 11:46, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
It was sultanate of Rum.
Pertys (
talk)
12:01, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
We should add it as "Modern Turkish" but I don't know how to do it.
Even2311 (
talk)
The "last stable version" would be before people started adding fictional "eagles" without reference. Please hold everyone to high standards regarding WP:RS. If there is a recorded Turkish/Turkic name for the state recorded contemporarily, let's see a reference for it. Then add it. If you have no decent reference, you have no business editing anything whatsoever. -- dab (𒁳) 17:34, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
You should quote the relevant part of the book in the article. We don't know what it says about Arabic. Modern Cyrillic alphabet for Mongol Empire is also false, but I don't care about that article. Unless you don't cite a reliable source for Turkish, it has the same degree of relevance as Japanese. -- Kouhi ( talk) 11:43, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Kouhi:, Great Seljuk Empire is from Kınıks of Oguz tribes. Their Sultans were always Turk. If your history is strong already, you can see that war, trade and other events leads cultural interaction. It's clearly in sources that there were interaction with persians but it does not change that Seljuks were Turk. On the other hand shortly after fall of Great Seljuk Empire, Anatolian Seljuk State was founded and after that Ottoman Empire was founded. Everything is chained. Great Seljuki Empire and previous states are foundnation of the Republik of Turkey and they are Turk. Their language is also Turkish. Removing Turkish from drop box and leaving only Persian there, is clearly ignorance and hostlility. You urgently need to return from your vandal attitude.-- Urungu97 ( talk) 15:45, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
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Instead of a questionable primary source:
All which use Āl-e Saljuq.
I would strongly suggest to Franrasyan to refrain from logging out to edit war their POV into this article. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
20:22, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
The AFD closed as merge asking for any sourced content to be merged into this one. This article is quite well developed so I am wary of adding this will make it
WP:Undue. Therefor I am copying the only sourced section here so regular editors of this article can decide how to incorporate it. Remember that if you do use this you need to put Merged from
Seljuq Armenia
in the edit summary to maintain attribution (the link is also required). Thank you.
AIRcorn
(talk)
22:14, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
The Seljuq dynasty under Alp Arslan took the city of Ani in 1064. [1] In 1071, after the defeat of the Byzantine forces by the Seljuq Turks at the Battle of Manzikert, the Turks captured the rest of Greater Armenia and much of Anatolia. [2] So ended Christian leadership of Armenia for the next millennium with the exception of a period of the late 12th-early 13th centuries, when the Muslim power in Greater Armenia was seriously troubled by the resurgent Georgian monarchy. Many local nobles (nakharars) joined their efforts with the Georgians, leading to liberation of several areas in northern Armenia, which was ruled, under the authority of the Georgian crown, by the Zacharids/ Mkhargrdzeli, a prominent Armeno-Georgian noble family. [3]
- ^ "Alp Arslan". Archived from the original on 2011-08-27. Retrieved February 6, 2007.
{{ cite web}}
: Unknown parameter|deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) ( help)- ^ "Byzantium and Its Influence on Neighboring Peoples". Archived from the original on 2011-08-27. Retrieved February 8, 2007.
{{ cite web}}
: Unknown parameter|deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) ( help)- ^ Dissertation, Appendix A, Supplementary Notes on the 11-13th Century Naxarars, Turco-Mongolica, History, Historical, Medieval, Armenia, Armenian, Georgia, Georgian, Mongolian,...
Hi LouisAragon. I've restored the English transliteration of آل سلجوق (i.e., Āl-e Saljuq) per WP:TRANSLITERATE which states "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet...must be transliterated." However, I hope that we can restore the Turkish and Turkmen names of the subject per WP:ALTNAME which states:
significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages.
The Seljuk Empire was a Oghuz Turkic empire, with capitals based in modern Turkey and Turkmenistan. Which, not coincidentally, are also Oghuz speaking countries. Their renditions of the name, I do believe, are "significant". See the article on Vikings which includes the local renditions of Viking in "( Old English: wicing—"pirate", Danish and Bokmål: vikinger; Swedish and Nynorsk: vikingar; Icelandic: víkingar, from Old Norse)". The same should apply here. The Sultanate of Rum, and in turn the Ottomans, descended from the Seljuk Empire. So there is a lineage with modern Turkey. The infobox already includes, with citation, Oghuz Turkish as a language of the Empire alongside Persian.
In general, the synonym Great Seljuq Empire, should be included as a "significant alternative name". Inclusion of alt names is usually common on article ledes. Any thoughts? DA1 ( talk) 12:50, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran apparently thinks a turkic empire should only have a persian version of its name and not a turkish nor any other oghuz name. I wonder what you're going to say this time as a reason? I hope you don't say the word "revisionism" again in wrong context as usual CuriousGolden ( talk) 13:12, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran What are you trying to get from costing Seljuk Empire for your chauvinistic ideas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AttilaAkay ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
There some archive discussion about the name on Talk:Seljuk Empire/Archive 2. Better @ Kansas Bear: because he was involved in this specific Talk:Seljuk Empire/Archive 2#Āl-e Saljuq discussion. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 10:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
I am calling for consistency. Wikipedia makes a distinction between the Seljuq dynasty and the Seljuk Empire. The contemporary Persian term, Al-e Saljuq, is apparently a literal translation of House of Seljuk, i.e. Seljuk dynasty. So why have it in this article? And if we were to add the non-contemporary Persian translation for the Seljuk Empire, we should be able to add the non-contemporary Turkish translation as well considering the fact it was the Seljuk Turks who created Turkey. -- Endleofan 15:09, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
I don't think its really relevant to mention the (alleged) religion of the Seljuks in the opening paragraph as Persia was officially secular during the Seljuk period and adjacent time periods. Also, the Seljuks, as with other adjacent dynasties, were not religious fundamentalists as is evident in their contemporary literature and art, which makes religion less worthy of emphasis in the opening line. Furthermore, the state religion is mentioned in the info box, so anyone that clicks on the article can see this either way. I'm in favor of removing religion from opening paragraph as it appears to be standard in these types of articles. Please comment below for or against. Xoltron ( talk) 07:46, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Nnadigoodluck ███ 12:14, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Seljuk Empire → Seljuq Empire – Per WP:TITLECON ( Seljuq dynasty, Mahmud I of Great Seljuq, Anatolian Seljuqs family tree, etc). Appears to be the common name and the spelling that is most frequently used. Keivan.f Talk 06:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Why is this removed from the lead? It's a lot used academically. Beshogur ( talk) 17:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Getting tired of IPs/new users constantly trying to force that most likely fictional flag and coat of arms into the article without adding any source whatsoever. Here's what the The later Ghaznavids (page 56) by C. E. Bosworth states:
"Another practice of Ibrahim's which may have been influenced by that of the Seljuqs, and by Ibrahim's connections with Malik Shah, is the Ghaznavid sultan's having a lion device on his banner (rayat), if a line of Abu'l-Faraj Runi is to be believed: Like the lion device on a banner, the bold braggart has no heart; like a gazelle's horn, the branch of his tree is without fruit. The Persian poets of the Seljuqs certainly make frequent reference to the lion device on their masters' flags, for example in the odes of Anwari addressed to Sanjar and his military commander epigoni in Khurasan."
No mention of any kind of bird.
-- HistoryofIran ( talk) 04:59, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
The details look very thorough but the numbering is extremely confusing. Do the numbers indicate branches of empire ruled by contemporaries? If they indicate succession, why does #1 appear several times? It would help a lot if there was a key or explanation at the bottom. Martindo ( talk) 01:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I am going to add an entire section on Seljuk art in the coming days. There is currently nothing written in that section, so I will be editing to primarily add information about both non-secular and secular Seljuk manuscripts. Other information that I plan to include (though less of) entails Seljuk ceramics and architecture.
Please let me know if you have any questions or would like to start a discussion with me about the edits that I plan to make!
Millsnaps ( talk) 21:48, 13 May 2021 (UTC)Millsnaps
In class [we] had to make a map of some empires from 1200-1400, including the seljuks
But here, the "History of the Turkic Peoples" template says that the seljuks existed from 1037 to 1194!?
Eventually something was provided to finish the map ( https://www.freeman-pedia.com/dar-al-islam-global-tapestry). AltoStev Talk 15:03, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
There's been a bit of edit-warring on alternate names in the lead regarding whether or not to mention "Saljuq" as a second spelling. There are quite a lot of different spellings/variations of the name and of course "Seljuk" is certainly the most common. The alternatives, in no particular order, include:
Seljuq,
Saljuq,
Saljuk,
Saljuqid,
Seljuqid,
Seljukid, and maybe more. Some of these must be pretty marginal, but suffice to say there are multiple ones that are used in reliable sources and that therefore could be mentioned. Can I suggest that these names be mentioned in a footnote instead (e.g. right after "or the Seljuk Empire")? That way the lead doesn't get bogged down in mentioning all the different spellings and there's plenty of room to add many names in a footnote without arguing too much about which ones should be prioritized. Cheers,
R Prazeres (
talk)
16:57, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
PS: If a consensus is reached here, we may also want to consider whether it can be applied to the lead of the
Seljuk dynasty article as well.
R Prazeres (
talk)
18:05, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 April 2021 and 26 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Millsnaps. Peer reviewers: Figapartmenttoast, Autonomous owl ch.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)