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"Over 26,000 women and children were to perish in these concentration camps." "the life or death of the 154,000 Boer and African civilians in the camps rated as an abysmally low priority" "by February 1902 the annual death-rate in the concentration camps for white inmates dropped to 6.9 percent and eventually to 2 percent, which was a lower rate than pertained in many British cities at the time." Comparing "27,927 Boers (of whom 24,074 [50 percent of the Boer child population] were children under 16) had died " with the death rates in British cities seems quite unlikely, and in any case unsupported with any evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomxcoady ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
It's tricky making comparisons. But here's a link to a report about health in Scotland in the same period.
http://www.scran.ac.uk/scotland/pdf/SP2_3Health.pdf
For example 'As late as 1898 the infant mortality rate (deaths under the age of one) in Glasgow Gorbals was 200 per 1000 live births'. We forget just how commonplace death was just over a century ago. Cassandra. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.105.241.76 (
talk)
13:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
Salting of the fields is fake. There are no references given. It's made up.
Discussed here : /info/en/?search=Talk:Salting_the_earth#Second_Boer_War_and_"unfeasible_for_herbicidal_warfare"? (Possible original edit: Salting of fields https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Second_Boer_War&diff=159136406&oldid=159013150 )
I will also remove "Poisoning of wells" since this is unsourced, unlikely and is part of this "salting of fields edit". ( Possible original edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Second_Boer_War&diff=160709578&oldid=160388483 )
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 10:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Starvation in the camps is mentioned twice in this wikipedia entry as a cause of death.
"Disease and starvation killed thousands" is apparently backed up by 2 sources however...
1) "Hasian Marouf, Western journal of communication, 2003" - I don't have access to this paper, the paper's summary says "This essay provides a rhetorical analysis of some of the gender, class, and racial politics of the "concentration camp" controversy of the Anglo-Boer war. Key words: Boer war, concentration camps, hysteria, Emily Hobhouse, ideographic, rhetoric, synchronic." I can't think that anyone would think this was a good reference.
2) "Scars from a Childhood Disease: Measles in the Concentration Camps during the Boer War" which talks about the measles epidemic and does not mention starvation.
the paper is available here : https://pdfslide.net/documents/scars-from-a-childhood-disease-measles-in-the-concentration-camps-during-the.html
"A report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boers (of whom 24,074 [50 percent of the Boer child population] were children under 16) had died of starvation, disease and exposure in the concentration camps." - Which report? Who wrote it?
We need proper references for these claims. Until then I'm removing them.
1) I'm going to delete claims of starvation and exposure. 2) I'm going to delete the reference to the Marouf Hasian paper.
A breakdown of the the causes of death can be found in "Measles Epidemics of Variable Lethality in the Early 20th Century" a copy of which can be accessed here... ( warning pdf, but small)
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 22:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Both of these definitions currently mean prisons. The camps operated by the British during the Boer War weren't prisons. Stating absolutely that they were concentration camps or internment camps is therefore wrong. I will alter the opening statement to better reflect the history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheezypeaz ( talk • contribs) 23:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
While I was not the user to make this edit I nevertheless believe that the inclusion of the distinction for Cyprus internment camps is valid. There are three reasons for this. The first is that the Cyprus Internment Camps fit the definition for a concentration camp and are even included as an example on /info/en/?search=Internment (the page that concentration camp redirects to). The second is that it is feasible that someone unaware of the history of the Second Boer War but who was aware of the Cyprus camps could search for "British concentration camps" in order to discover more information on the Cyprus Internment Camps. The third is that I see no harm in the inclusion of this link which could aid user navigation of Wikipedia although its inclusion could be seen as controversial due to the connotations of the term "concentration camp". CumbrianCorrector ( talk) 14:30, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
User Gtmeyer has added
"raping of women and children as young as 10,[3][4]"
to the following section which describes the scorched earth policy.
"As Boer farms were destroyed by the British under their "Scorched Earth" policy—including the systematic destruction of crops and the slaughtering or removal of livestock, raping of women and children as young as 10,[3][4]"
the description with the edit says "Added details about the tactics employed by English soldiers during Scorched Earth Policy'"
Gtmeyer has also added this claim to the Second Boer War page. Where an additional reference has been added which appears to be the source of this information "The Havenga Report on Rapes"
I am going to revert this edit because the following document which includes an analysis of the claims of rape makes the following point...
"Even allowing for under-reporting, in this war rape was not a common occurrence; instances of savagery are associated with reports of doubtful authenticity; and the only suggestion of organization that was encountered was a threat on the part of Col. T.D. Pilcher that if any harm came to eighteen black scouts captured by Com. J.J. Koen, he would not be able to protect Boer women against the anger of the other blacks under his command."
Also specifically referring to the Havenga Collection "This is the only instance in the collection of the plaintiff stating unambiguously that she was raped by a soldier."
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/53114/Boje_Sexual_2016.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
I will also remove the citation of W.T.Stead because he isn't an historian. The above document describes him as an "anti war propagandist"
So in conclusion: It wasn't policy, there appears to be fewer instances of sexual misbehaviour than might be expected and the document cited by the contributor don't support the claim of policy.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 17:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
The official name was refuge camps. Why has the POV been allowed to rename these when all the sources cite them as refuge camps? 2A00:23C4:21B:5601:61B4:A92C:F2DF:CE69 ( talk) 12:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
It seems like this article is, in parts, worded in a way that isn't neutral. Rather than simply stating things matter-of-factly it definitely seems to me like there is some slant here towards "this was a bad thing" – and of course, that may well be true, but just-the-facts is what a Wikipedia article should be. Does anyone else have any comments on this? Regards, DesertPipeline ( talk) 14:54, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
There are quotes in the post-war debate thread that need citations. I'm also not sure why Niall Ferguson has to be qualified as a "Right wing" historian? It should be enough to state his viewpoint. F.M. Sir D.H ( talk) 10:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
I think there is a need in this article for clarity on the matter of when and where the camps were voluntary (i.e. you could freely leave) and when they were in effect prisons. I realise the freedom to leave is not worth a whole lot if the entire countryside has been scorched, but the difference is still important, not least as it shines a light on the attitude of those conducting the policy. Does anyone have more precise information on this? Really what we want is the number of camps (and inmates), that are voluntary and involuntary at a given moment in time. LastDodo ( talk) 14:33, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
As a 4th generation South African and descendant of ancestors who fought and suffered on both sides of the conflict (my great uncles fought on both sides, my grandmother was born in a concentration camp) my view is that there is little foundation for calling this the Boer War, apart from the historic English imperialism perspective and every reason to call it an invasion by armed English colonial forces. 105.232.127.133 ( talk) 08:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
In the article on South African British concentration camps, the white population are systematically referred to as Boers. This is incorrect. There was a very diverse white population in South Africa at the time. French, Irish, British, German, Portuguese and other. Many people of origins were also interned. My great, great grandparents who were Scottish/German were put in a camp as the British wanted their land and horses and their sons were resisting. They died there and my great grandmother was orphaned at the age of about 8. This was not as simple as British versus Boers. It was about land grabs and a systematic effort to exterminate or at least seriously diminish the settled white population. There were signs in the camps regulating what people could be fed and encouraging the reduction of vegetables and fruit. I have looked for sources but it is very hard to find them. Especially in English. This information comes from family research, private records in South Africa and visits to camps now museums. Please do not refer to all settled European South Africans as Boers. JSFedwards2021 ( talk) 12:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
"Over 26,000 women and children were to perish in these concentration camps." "the life or death of the 154,000 Boer and African civilians in the camps rated as an abysmally low priority" "by February 1902 the annual death-rate in the concentration camps for white inmates dropped to 6.9 percent and eventually to 2 percent, which was a lower rate than pertained in many British cities at the time." Comparing "27,927 Boers (of whom 24,074 [50 percent of the Boer child population] were children under 16) had died " with the death rates in British cities seems quite unlikely, and in any case unsupported with any evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomxcoady ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
It's tricky making comparisons. But here's a link to a report about health in Scotland in the same period.
http://www.scran.ac.uk/scotland/pdf/SP2_3Health.pdf
For example 'As late as 1898 the infant mortality rate (deaths under the age of one) in Glasgow Gorbals was 200 per 1000 live births'. We forget just how commonplace death was just over a century ago. Cassandra. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.105.241.76 (
talk)
13:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
Salting of the fields is fake. There are no references given. It's made up.
Discussed here : /info/en/?search=Talk:Salting_the_earth#Second_Boer_War_and_"unfeasible_for_herbicidal_warfare"? (Possible original edit: Salting of fields https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Second_Boer_War&diff=159136406&oldid=159013150 )
I will also remove "Poisoning of wells" since this is unsourced, unlikely and is part of this "salting of fields edit". ( Possible original edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Second_Boer_War&diff=160709578&oldid=160388483 )
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 10:08, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
Starvation in the camps is mentioned twice in this wikipedia entry as a cause of death.
"Disease and starvation killed thousands" is apparently backed up by 2 sources however...
1) "Hasian Marouf, Western journal of communication, 2003" - I don't have access to this paper, the paper's summary says "This essay provides a rhetorical analysis of some of the gender, class, and racial politics of the "concentration camp" controversy of the Anglo-Boer war. Key words: Boer war, concentration camps, hysteria, Emily Hobhouse, ideographic, rhetoric, synchronic." I can't think that anyone would think this was a good reference.
2) "Scars from a Childhood Disease: Measles in the Concentration Camps during the Boer War" which talks about the measles epidemic and does not mention starvation.
the paper is available here : https://pdfslide.net/documents/scars-from-a-childhood-disease-measles-in-the-concentration-camps-during-the.html
"A report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boers (of whom 24,074 [50 percent of the Boer child population] were children under 16) had died of starvation, disease and exposure in the concentration camps." - Which report? Who wrote it?
We need proper references for these claims. Until then I'm removing them.
1) I'm going to delete claims of starvation and exposure. 2) I'm going to delete the reference to the Marouf Hasian paper.
A breakdown of the the causes of death can be found in "Measles Epidemics of Variable Lethality in the Early 20th Century" a copy of which can be accessed here... ( warning pdf, but small)
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 22:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Both of these definitions currently mean prisons. The camps operated by the British during the Boer War weren't prisons. Stating absolutely that they were concentration camps or internment camps is therefore wrong. I will alter the opening statement to better reflect the history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheezypeaz ( talk • contribs) 23:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
While I was not the user to make this edit I nevertheless believe that the inclusion of the distinction for Cyprus internment camps is valid. There are three reasons for this. The first is that the Cyprus Internment Camps fit the definition for a concentration camp and are even included as an example on /info/en/?search=Internment (the page that concentration camp redirects to). The second is that it is feasible that someone unaware of the history of the Second Boer War but who was aware of the Cyprus camps could search for "British concentration camps" in order to discover more information on the Cyprus Internment Camps. The third is that I see no harm in the inclusion of this link which could aid user navigation of Wikipedia although its inclusion could be seen as controversial due to the connotations of the term "concentration camp". CumbrianCorrector ( talk) 14:30, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
User Gtmeyer has added
"raping of women and children as young as 10,[3][4]"
to the following section which describes the scorched earth policy.
"As Boer farms were destroyed by the British under their "Scorched Earth" policy—including the systematic destruction of crops and the slaughtering or removal of livestock, raping of women and children as young as 10,[3][4]"
the description with the edit says "Added details about the tactics employed by English soldiers during Scorched Earth Policy'"
Gtmeyer has also added this claim to the Second Boer War page. Where an additional reference has been added which appears to be the source of this information "The Havenga Report on Rapes"
I am going to revert this edit because the following document which includes an analysis of the claims of rape makes the following point...
"Even allowing for under-reporting, in this war rape was not a common occurrence; instances of savagery are associated with reports of doubtful authenticity; and the only suggestion of organization that was encountered was a threat on the part of Col. T.D. Pilcher that if any harm came to eighteen black scouts captured by Com. J.J. Koen, he would not be able to protect Boer women against the anger of the other blacks under his command."
Also specifically referring to the Havenga Collection "This is the only instance in the collection of the plaintiff stating unambiguously that she was raped by a soldier."
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/53114/Boje_Sexual_2016.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
I will also remove the citation of W.T.Stead because he isn't an historian. The above document describes him as an "anti war propagandist"
So in conclusion: It wasn't policy, there appears to be fewer instances of sexual misbehaviour than might be expected and the document cited by the contributor don't support the claim of policy.
Cheezypeaz ( talk) 17:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
The official name was refuge camps. Why has the POV been allowed to rename these when all the sources cite them as refuge camps? 2A00:23C4:21B:5601:61B4:A92C:F2DF:CE69 ( talk) 12:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
It seems like this article is, in parts, worded in a way that isn't neutral. Rather than simply stating things matter-of-factly it definitely seems to me like there is some slant here towards "this was a bad thing" – and of course, that may well be true, but just-the-facts is what a Wikipedia article should be. Does anyone else have any comments on this? Regards, DesertPipeline ( talk) 14:54, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
There are quotes in the post-war debate thread that need citations. I'm also not sure why Niall Ferguson has to be qualified as a "Right wing" historian? It should be enough to state his viewpoint. F.M. Sir D.H ( talk) 10:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
I think there is a need in this article for clarity on the matter of when and where the camps were voluntary (i.e. you could freely leave) and when they were in effect prisons. I realise the freedom to leave is not worth a whole lot if the entire countryside has been scorched, but the difference is still important, not least as it shines a light on the attitude of those conducting the policy. Does anyone have more precise information on this? Really what we want is the number of camps (and inmates), that are voluntary and involuntary at a given moment in time. LastDodo ( talk) 14:33, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
As a 4th generation South African and descendant of ancestors who fought and suffered on both sides of the conflict (my great uncles fought on both sides, my grandmother was born in a concentration camp) my view is that there is little foundation for calling this the Boer War, apart from the historic English imperialism perspective and every reason to call it an invasion by armed English colonial forces. 105.232.127.133 ( talk) 08:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
In the article on South African British concentration camps, the white population are systematically referred to as Boers. This is incorrect. There was a very diverse white population in South Africa at the time. French, Irish, British, German, Portuguese and other. Many people of origins were also interned. My great, great grandparents who were Scottish/German were put in a camp as the British wanted their land and horses and their sons were resisting. They died there and my great grandmother was orphaned at the age of about 8. This was not as simple as British versus Boers. It was about land grabs and a systematic effort to exterminate or at least seriously diminish the settled white population. There were signs in the camps regulating what people could be fed and encouraging the reduction of vegetables and fruit. I have looked for sources but it is very hard to find them. Especially in English. This information comes from family research, private records in South Africa and visits to camps now museums. Please do not refer to all settled European South Africans as Boers. JSFedwards2021 ( talk) 12:33, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)