![]() | The contents of the Cocket page were merged into Seal (emblem) on 19 September 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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Someone with a more solid historical grounding in contract law than I have should probably add a section on how seals acted as a substitute for consideration. It is my understanding that a seal on a document would previously substitute for consideration, and thus create an enforceable promise without there having to be any bargain for that promise. I have also been told that consideration is, itself, a replacement for the seal.
If anyone knows more about the history, please add it. I discovered that this article even existed here in a search for a clear answer. Thanks. Ari 06:14, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The NSA seal page includes the following text:
This image shows a seal. The use of such symbols is restricted in many countries. These restrictions are independent of the copyright status of the depiction shown here.
I came to this page expecting to find information on such restrictions, but didn't find anything
-- Tom W.M. 07:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
In my former "Seals (device)" link Not All Online Authority Seals are Credible that used to be in the "Metaphorical Use" section where the "Good Housekeeping Seal" is noted (maybe that was the wrong sub-section?), my now deleted link has a link within to Ben Edleman's "Certifications and Site Trustworthiness" which says: "Some sites that are widely regarded as extremely trustworthy present such seals. But those same seals feature prominently on sites that seek to scam users -- whether through spyware infections, spam, or other unsavory practices." Ben's "Adverse Selection in Online "Trust" Certificates" has many valid points." I guess I was hoping that my utilization of Ben's reliable source, "significant reputation" ( http://www.benedelman.org/media/ ) by linking to him would be enough "authority" to have my post allowed. I feel this online consumer protection information adds substantive value to Wikipedia and it can not be found anywhere else on the page.
But, if I can't put a link to my blog post there, can I at least put an external link to Ben Edelman's Harvard document? Thank you. Brokerblogger 21:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
"The Koreans invented both paper and the printing press centuries before they were invented again in Europe."
because, according to corresponding wikipedia entries, the Koreans didn't invent paper and print press. 68.145.105.91 07:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleated this phrase from the 'signet ring' section because it didn't seem to make any sense:
However, there has been a trend to assume arms in the British isles given the recent surge of popularity in genealogy, and so many wearers are actually not entitled to bear arms legally.
If anyone understands it and wants to rephrase it that would be good.
Tkos 23:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody please add how the word "signet" is pronounced? It would be most helpful. 14:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Bulla has no connection to the Latin for lead, which is plumbum, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karel D'huyvetters ( talk • contribs) 13:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
In recent years there has been a welcome addition of faux wax this was created by wax-works for high speed production of wax seals used as embellishments. The original faux wax was created using a blend of Scottish wax and silicon bases. This new wax is now made by extrusion and can be heated using a low temperature glue gun.
Since someone recently decided to move this article without any discussion, I think we should discuss the most appropriate name for the article. The editor who moved it most likely did so because s/he felt that seal more often refers to the (usually) wax impression than the metal device that makes the impression. I would suggest that if Seal (device) insufficiently covers the topic, then so does Seal (impression), if not more so. If I had to come up with a better suggestion, I would say Seal (heraldry) indicates the context of the word without tying itself up in this sort of chicken-or-egg question. But I am open to other suggestions. Any thoughts, anyone? Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 03:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
It occurred to me that "Seal (heraldry)" has enough going for it to at least be a redirect to this article, so I have created the redirect. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. — harej ( talk) ( cool!) 00:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Seal (impression) →
Seal (emblem) — This page was moved without discussion, and subsequent discussion points toward a consensus to move to Seal (emblem). -
Wilhelm_meis (
talk)
05:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I suggest to repeat a survey, with multiple-choice, rather than binary, poll:
Recapitulating my position from talk above and from disrespectful deletion of my other comments under formal pretext: I don't think that "emblem" is universal enough to correctly cover the subject. After looking into the dictionary.com, I see that a general word would be "symbol", not "emblem". Therefore I suggest the move to seal (symbol). Still better title is Seal (authentification). All seals discussed in this article have the same purpose: authentification of the authorship/ownership/correctness/vlidity. Unlike other suggestions, this one does not give an impression of restriction to result (impression) or tool (die): it addresses the most distinctive trait:the ultimate purpose. Timurite ( talk) 23:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
From the "Signet rings" section: "In Latin America, it is also traditional for the descendants of the old criollo aristocratic families to wear signet rings in the Spanish tradition. [Italics mine]" There needs to be a credible citation for this claim, as I can certainly attest that this is not a common usage and has not been since my grandfather's time (he was born in 1847). 75.21.111.206 ( talk) 08:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I am kind-of surprised that the first introduction section DOES NOT explain, that we are talking about:
1.--The Seal (device), and
2.--The Seal (authentication); the resultant Picture, the "Seal" is the sanctioned Authentication
The Seal-(device) is simply the means that was used to make the Authentication. And, however, not all seals were just for authentication. The first cylinder seals were probably also an art form... (there are even wonderful examples of picasso-esque styles, throughout all timeperiods, even back into the 3rd and 4th millennium BC).
So, why not choose a name that attempts to explain the dual usage?..... Seal (authentication and device)
The Seal (emblem) NAME, shows the King-ly, or state-sponsorship Usage, starting probably in the 3rd millennium BC., post cylinder seals, and impression seals; (even the Ancient Egypt cartouche should be discussed as the usage, of the Seal (emblem)).) ------ Mmcannis ( talk) 16:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
(RESTATEMENT)--The
Seal (device), which at one time was an article, redirects here, to
Seal (emblem).... and it is partially why all the
cartouches of the pharaohs, (or other users of a cartouche), are also historically, a "seal (emblem)", and an 'authentication', (at least of timeperiod, if not official usage).
The items in this aricle, are mostly "authentications"-(i.e. Ownerships---(please understand, that a Letter, with a wax seal is Ownership, (the Egyptians did it with clay seals back into the 3rd mill BC-or 2nd-(King
Tutankhamun's tomb DOOR-1 Room))), through long timeperiods, for many levels in society; that is why the first INTRODUCTION, section should explain the A. Emblem (the symbol, of the owner, (and HIS/HER authorship)), and B. the authentication-USAGE for the EMBLEM...
postage stamps for some countries state "Postage and Revenue", as (being) for the same use as "authorization", (of a TAX,....for: govt, state, town, agency, etc.), or just stamp postage
(I do realize the complexity of the subject of "Seal (emblem), it started possibly, with the
clay tokens of Mesopotamia, or the Mohenjo-Daro script-pieces.
(I just searched the Seal (emblem) article;
cylinder seals are referenced, but the origin of the first
stamp seals are not.)
Mmcannis (
talk)
03:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
I am interested to know about security and legal considerations for seals, i.e. how difficult they are to "forge", extent of verification procedures actually used, laws regarding use of someone else's seal, joint use of a seal, verification in court, etc. In particular, I'm interested in a comparison with signatures (pros/cons). Ken6en ( talk) 02:28, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I have requested a quotation] because while Jenkinson might say that impressions in wax are the most common, I doubt the context of that statement indicates the claim applies to modern Western seals. Also, there are a wide variety of emblems impressed on media in the modern world that might or might not be considered seals. I suspect that the most common Western seals are made with ink on paper, and the next most common are embossed on paper. Of course, the sheer volume of modern commerce probably causes whatever is considered a seal in the modern Western context to vastly outnumber all pre-modern seal impressions. Jc3s5h ( talk) 21:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I have concluded this article uses American English, based on the addition of the word "watercolor" in this edit from 2005. Jc3s5h ( talk) 12:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
I recently found on academia this extremely interesting article. Unfortunately it is written in German. I frankly didn't understand everything but it seemed to me that it should be metioned here. Someone with good German knowledge should exploit the article: https://www.academia.edu/8334985/Das_alteste_Papstsiegel_Ursprung_und_Aussage_eines_Bildmotivs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.56.77.51 ( talk) 08:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Please add link to electric/gas/water meter seals article. Jidanni ( talk) 15:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Cocket is merely a dicdef for a particular kind of seal. BD2412 T 21:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:22, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
The current title, Seal (emblem), conjures up an image of some graphics, not of a physical imprint or tool. An unsuspecting reader would look here for a Presidential Seal of Turkey, not a signet ring. I have read the discussions above, but 10+ years seems to be a sufficient time for consensus to change, so let's try again. Few proposals along the lines previously suggested: Seal (mark) (similar to Seal (authentication), as the purpose of seal is to add a mark), Seal (tool and imprint), Seal (die and mark). Викидим ( talk) 19:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 05:57, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Seal (emblem) → Seal (device) – The current title, Seal (emblem), conjures up an image of some graphics, not of a physical imprint or tool (which are the most important meanings here). An unsuspecting reader would look here for a Presidential Seal of Turkey, not a signet ring. We are really trying to encompass three different closely related concepts: (a) the physical implement (tool, matrix, die); (b) the impression; and (c) the graphic design (emblem), which may not even exist in a "physical" manifestation. Reverting name to Seal (device) will work, because the word "device" is itself ambiguous: in colloquial English it means a tool or implement, but in heraldry (and therefore sigillography) it means a symbol or emblem. One more meaning, "a method, or trick with a particular aim" covers the purpose of the seal: authentication. The last informal proposal to move ( Talk:Seal (emblem)#Name (yet again)) was unopposed, but due to previous discussions ( Talk:Seal (emblem)#Recent move, Talk:Seal (emblem)#Requested move) I am initiating a potentially contested move. Викидим ( talk) 23:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 05:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
璽 has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 28 § 璽 until a consensus is reached.
Rusalkii (
talk)
20:46, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | The contents of the Cocket page were merged into Seal (emblem) on 19 September 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 13 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Seal (device). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Someone with a more solid historical grounding in contract law than I have should probably add a section on how seals acted as a substitute for consideration. It is my understanding that a seal on a document would previously substitute for consideration, and thus create an enforceable promise without there having to be any bargain for that promise. I have also been told that consideration is, itself, a replacement for the seal.
If anyone knows more about the history, please add it. I discovered that this article even existed here in a search for a clear answer. Thanks. Ari 06:14, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The NSA seal page includes the following text:
This image shows a seal. The use of such symbols is restricted in many countries. These restrictions are independent of the copyright status of the depiction shown here.
I came to this page expecting to find information on such restrictions, but didn't find anything
-- Tom W.M. 07:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
In my former "Seals (device)" link Not All Online Authority Seals are Credible that used to be in the "Metaphorical Use" section where the "Good Housekeeping Seal" is noted (maybe that was the wrong sub-section?), my now deleted link has a link within to Ben Edleman's "Certifications and Site Trustworthiness" which says: "Some sites that are widely regarded as extremely trustworthy present such seals. But those same seals feature prominently on sites that seek to scam users -- whether through spyware infections, spam, or other unsavory practices." Ben's "Adverse Selection in Online "Trust" Certificates" has many valid points." I guess I was hoping that my utilization of Ben's reliable source, "significant reputation" ( http://www.benedelman.org/media/ ) by linking to him would be enough "authority" to have my post allowed. I feel this online consumer protection information adds substantive value to Wikipedia and it can not be found anywhere else on the page.
But, if I can't put a link to my blog post there, can I at least put an external link to Ben Edelman's Harvard document? Thank you. Brokerblogger 21:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
"The Koreans invented both paper and the printing press centuries before they were invented again in Europe."
because, according to corresponding wikipedia entries, the Koreans didn't invent paper and print press. 68.145.105.91 07:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I deleated this phrase from the 'signet ring' section because it didn't seem to make any sense:
However, there has been a trend to assume arms in the British isles given the recent surge of popularity in genealogy, and so many wearers are actually not entitled to bear arms legally.
If anyone understands it and wants to rephrase it that would be good.
Tkos 23:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody please add how the word "signet" is pronounced? It would be most helpful. 14:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Bulla has no connection to the Latin for lead, which is plumbum, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karel D'huyvetters ( talk • contribs) 13:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
In recent years there has been a welcome addition of faux wax this was created by wax-works for high speed production of wax seals used as embellishments. The original faux wax was created using a blend of Scottish wax and silicon bases. This new wax is now made by extrusion and can be heated using a low temperature glue gun.
Since someone recently decided to move this article without any discussion, I think we should discuss the most appropriate name for the article. The editor who moved it most likely did so because s/he felt that seal more often refers to the (usually) wax impression than the metal device that makes the impression. I would suggest that if Seal (device) insufficiently covers the topic, then so does Seal (impression), if not more so. If I had to come up with a better suggestion, I would say Seal (heraldry) indicates the context of the word without tying itself up in this sort of chicken-or-egg question. But I am open to other suggestions. Any thoughts, anyone? Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 03:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
It occurred to me that "Seal (heraldry)" has enough going for it to at least be a redirect to this article, so I have created the redirect. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. — harej ( talk) ( cool!) 00:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Seal (impression) →
Seal (emblem) — This page was moved without discussion, and subsequent discussion points toward a consensus to move to Seal (emblem). -
Wilhelm_meis (
talk)
05:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I suggest to repeat a survey, with multiple-choice, rather than binary, poll:
Recapitulating my position from talk above and from disrespectful deletion of my other comments under formal pretext: I don't think that "emblem" is universal enough to correctly cover the subject. After looking into the dictionary.com, I see that a general word would be "symbol", not "emblem". Therefore I suggest the move to seal (symbol). Still better title is Seal (authentification). All seals discussed in this article have the same purpose: authentification of the authorship/ownership/correctness/vlidity. Unlike other suggestions, this one does not give an impression of restriction to result (impression) or tool (die): it addresses the most distinctive trait:the ultimate purpose. Timurite ( talk) 23:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
From the "Signet rings" section: "In Latin America, it is also traditional for the descendants of the old criollo aristocratic families to wear signet rings in the Spanish tradition. [Italics mine]" There needs to be a credible citation for this claim, as I can certainly attest that this is not a common usage and has not been since my grandfather's time (he was born in 1847). 75.21.111.206 ( talk) 08:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I am kind-of surprised that the first introduction section DOES NOT explain, that we are talking about:
1.--The Seal (device), and
2.--The Seal (authentication); the resultant Picture, the "Seal" is the sanctioned Authentication
The Seal-(device) is simply the means that was used to make the Authentication. And, however, not all seals were just for authentication. The first cylinder seals were probably also an art form... (there are even wonderful examples of picasso-esque styles, throughout all timeperiods, even back into the 3rd and 4th millennium BC).
So, why not choose a name that attempts to explain the dual usage?..... Seal (authentication and device)
The Seal (emblem) NAME, shows the King-ly, or state-sponsorship Usage, starting probably in the 3rd millennium BC., post cylinder seals, and impression seals; (even the Ancient Egypt cartouche should be discussed as the usage, of the Seal (emblem)).) ------ Mmcannis ( talk) 16:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
(RESTATEMENT)--The
Seal (device), which at one time was an article, redirects here, to
Seal (emblem).... and it is partially why all the
cartouches of the pharaohs, (or other users of a cartouche), are also historically, a "seal (emblem)", and an 'authentication', (at least of timeperiod, if not official usage).
The items in this aricle, are mostly "authentications"-(i.e. Ownerships---(please understand, that a Letter, with a wax seal is Ownership, (the Egyptians did it with clay seals back into the 3rd mill BC-or 2nd-(King
Tutankhamun's tomb DOOR-1 Room))), through long timeperiods, for many levels in society; that is why the first INTRODUCTION, section should explain the A. Emblem (the symbol, of the owner, (and HIS/HER authorship)), and B. the authentication-USAGE for the EMBLEM...
postage stamps for some countries state "Postage and Revenue", as (being) for the same use as "authorization", (of a TAX,....for: govt, state, town, agency, etc.), or just stamp postage
(I do realize the complexity of the subject of "Seal (emblem), it started possibly, with the
clay tokens of Mesopotamia, or the Mohenjo-Daro script-pieces.
(I just searched the Seal (emblem) article;
cylinder seals are referenced, but the origin of the first
stamp seals are not.)
Mmcannis (
talk)
03:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
I am interested to know about security and legal considerations for seals, i.e. how difficult they are to "forge", extent of verification procedures actually used, laws regarding use of someone else's seal, joint use of a seal, verification in court, etc. In particular, I'm interested in a comparison with signatures (pros/cons). Ken6en ( talk) 02:28, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
I have requested a quotation] because while Jenkinson might say that impressions in wax are the most common, I doubt the context of that statement indicates the claim applies to modern Western seals. Also, there are a wide variety of emblems impressed on media in the modern world that might or might not be considered seals. I suspect that the most common Western seals are made with ink on paper, and the next most common are embossed on paper. Of course, the sheer volume of modern commerce probably causes whatever is considered a seal in the modern Western context to vastly outnumber all pre-modern seal impressions. Jc3s5h ( talk) 21:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I have concluded this article uses American English, based on the addition of the word "watercolor" in this edit from 2005. Jc3s5h ( talk) 12:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
I recently found on academia this extremely interesting article. Unfortunately it is written in German. I frankly didn't understand everything but it seemed to me that it should be metioned here. Someone with good German knowledge should exploit the article: https://www.academia.edu/8334985/Das_alteste_Papstsiegel_Ursprung_und_Aussage_eines_Bildmotivs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.56.77.51 ( talk) 08:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Please add link to electric/gas/water meter seals article. Jidanni ( talk) 15:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Cocket is merely a dicdef for a particular kind of seal. BD2412 T 21:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:22, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
The current title, Seal (emblem), conjures up an image of some graphics, not of a physical imprint or tool. An unsuspecting reader would look here for a Presidential Seal of Turkey, not a signet ring. I have read the discussions above, but 10+ years seems to be a sufficient time for consensus to change, so let's try again. Few proposals along the lines previously suggested: Seal (mark) (similar to Seal (authentication), as the purpose of seal is to add a mark), Seal (tool and imprint), Seal (die and mark). Викидим ( talk) 19:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 05:57, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Seal (emblem) → Seal (device) – The current title, Seal (emblem), conjures up an image of some graphics, not of a physical imprint or tool (which are the most important meanings here). An unsuspecting reader would look here for a Presidential Seal of Turkey, not a signet ring. We are really trying to encompass three different closely related concepts: (a) the physical implement (tool, matrix, die); (b) the impression; and (c) the graphic design (emblem), which may not even exist in a "physical" manifestation. Reverting name to Seal (device) will work, because the word "device" is itself ambiguous: in colloquial English it means a tool or implement, but in heraldry (and therefore sigillography) it means a symbol or emblem. One more meaning, "a method, or trick with a particular aim" covers the purpose of the seal: authentication. The last informal proposal to move ( Talk:Seal (emblem)#Name (yet again)) was unopposed, but due to previous discussions ( Talk:Seal (emblem)#Recent move, Talk:Seal (emblem)#Requested move) I am initiating a potentially contested move. Викидим ( talk) 23:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 05:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
璽 has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 28 § 璽 until a consensus is reached.
Rusalkii (
talk)
20:46, 28 March 2024 (UTC)