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The entry gave the derivation of scouse from the Norwegian labskaus. The Norwegian and German pages however, derive labskaus from the English word lobscouse, supported by Duden. I updated the entry. Cavort ( talk) 10:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Having searching carefully I was not able to find any reference to validate Esasus' edit saying that scouse is a fish based dish, so I refactored to remove that.
You will see references on the web to German Labskaus being a Herring dish, but all the pictures available on Google images seem to confirm that it is indeed a beef (and or pork) hash, served with one or two rollmops (which are made from herring), pickle and sometimes fried egg added on top.
Esasus cited Chris Roberts, Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind Rhyme, Thorndike Press,2006 ( ISBN 0-7862-8517-6) as reference when he modified the page.
I found this at http://books.google.com/books?id=MdMZqhMzfpYC but I don't know if this online copy is authorized or illegally published.
On page 112 the referenced source reads:
Even 'Scouse' (and the attendant dish) comes from the north European sailors' food, lobskaus, which was brought to Liverpool by foreign mariners.
The Amazon page for the book http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Words-Lightly-Thrown-Reason/dp/1592401309 has this review:
From Publishers Weekly ... A librarian by night and a London tour guide by day, Roberts deploys an informal style of scholarship to dazzling effect, transforming a catalogue of familiar nursery rhymes into a treasure trove of tantalizingly slippery archaisms, hidden etymological layers, arcane associations and buried meanings. ... In a fluidly digressive style, he debunks accepted theories and confidently asserts his own. ...
Unless has Roberts' book has good references it can cite itself to the origin of the word, it's probably not a good source to be taken as an authority on the origin of the word, so I took that out too.
The page for Labskaus seems to have more detailed information on the derivation whether it is correct or not I don't know. If it can be validated, perhaps this should be copied or moved to this (English Labscouse) page where it is directly relevant.
Searching on Google the origin of 'Labscouse, Lapscouse, Lapskaus, Lobskaus, Lobskaus seems to turn up a strong folk perception of a conflicting direction for the English <=> Norwegian influence.
We're so used to terms in English having come from other languages so much that perhaps we don't expect to find words that came about the other way around, or maybe they're actually right and the fewer sources saying English => Norwegian are wrong.
I found many good links, but this probably isn't the right place for them.
JohnGH ( talk) 19:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 12:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
The link to the recipe on Merseyside Today is dead and I can't find it so I have replaced it with a recipe on the BBC website. Tony Corsini ( talk) 08:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
This is merely a comment. I have not researched the facts or for that matter read the article and its discussion too closely.
My initial thought is that maybe there is a circular argument developing. Scouse has an origin as none English term becoming common in English usage in Liverpool area. Initially from term similar to lobscouse possibly Norwegian. German term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labskaus then comes from the English term.
Which term came first and in what order does anyone know ? Would a German term be more likely to come from English than Norwegian, or indeed maybe come from somewhere else, or even be the origin of the Norwegian term.
As I said this is a question/comment. My only interest is that I currently reside in an area close to Liverpool, and so have an interest in reading about local matters. I am not trying to dispute or challenge any facts or statements. JohnH99 ( talk) 19:30, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
The present article lacks citations at numerous points and such citations as there are are a mix of formats. Would anyone object to my giving the article a modest overhaul to address these points? Tim riley talk 08:31, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
(@ Tim riley:, Dyveldi: If I might join the conversation) If there is a merge proposal in here I would have to disagree with it; this article is confused enough as it is.
It is ostensibly about scouse, the meat and potato stew popular on Merseyside, but then talks at length about lobscouse, a sailors dish made from salt meat and ships biscuit. So, which is it? It also mentions Norwegian lapskaus (a stew) and German labskaus (a kind of hash), and some others with similar names. I can see the name (and the names of other, equally varied dishes from the Baltic) derive from a common root, but the dishes don’t. And lumping them all together isn’t going to make that any clearer.
And I have to question the assertion made, without any evidence whatsoever, that scouse is 'almost certainly' German in origin. Scouse is a poor man's stew, made from whatever meat and veg is available: The Germans didn’t invent stew! I note Shipperbottoms article is actually about lobscouse, but the claim is still dubious; German labskaus is a form of hash, not a potage of meat and ships biscuit. If anything, the dishes from the Baltic derive their name from the English (
viz), not the other way round.
I would suggest (in fact, I am proposing to) beefing up (excuse the pun) the content on scouse (the Merseyside stew), and moving some of the more esoteric German language stuff to the Labskaus page. Thoughts?
Swanny18 (
talk) 04:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)The dish is called «Lapskaus» in Norwegian. 158.248.97.83 ( talk) 16:33, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
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The entry gave the derivation of scouse from the Norwegian labskaus. The Norwegian and German pages however, derive labskaus from the English word lobscouse, supported by Duden. I updated the entry. Cavort ( talk) 10:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Having searching carefully I was not able to find any reference to validate Esasus' edit saying that scouse is a fish based dish, so I refactored to remove that.
You will see references on the web to German Labskaus being a Herring dish, but all the pictures available on Google images seem to confirm that it is indeed a beef (and or pork) hash, served with one or two rollmops (which are made from herring), pickle and sometimes fried egg added on top.
Esasus cited Chris Roberts, Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind Rhyme, Thorndike Press,2006 ( ISBN 0-7862-8517-6) as reference when he modified the page.
I found this at http://books.google.com/books?id=MdMZqhMzfpYC but I don't know if this online copy is authorized or illegally published.
On page 112 the referenced source reads:
Even 'Scouse' (and the attendant dish) comes from the north European sailors' food, lobskaus, which was brought to Liverpool by foreign mariners.
The Amazon page for the book http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Words-Lightly-Thrown-Reason/dp/1592401309 has this review:
From Publishers Weekly ... A librarian by night and a London tour guide by day, Roberts deploys an informal style of scholarship to dazzling effect, transforming a catalogue of familiar nursery rhymes into a treasure trove of tantalizingly slippery archaisms, hidden etymological layers, arcane associations and buried meanings. ... In a fluidly digressive style, he debunks accepted theories and confidently asserts his own. ...
Unless has Roberts' book has good references it can cite itself to the origin of the word, it's probably not a good source to be taken as an authority on the origin of the word, so I took that out too.
The page for Labskaus seems to have more detailed information on the derivation whether it is correct or not I don't know. If it can be validated, perhaps this should be copied or moved to this (English Labscouse) page where it is directly relevant.
Searching on Google the origin of 'Labscouse, Lapscouse, Lapskaus, Lobskaus, Lobskaus seems to turn up a strong folk perception of a conflicting direction for the English <=> Norwegian influence.
We're so used to terms in English having come from other languages so much that perhaps we don't expect to find words that came about the other way around, or maybe they're actually right and the fewer sources saying English => Norwegian are wrong.
I found many good links, but this probably isn't the right place for them.
JohnGH ( talk) 19:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
This article talk page was automatically added with {{ WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot ( talk) 12:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
The link to the recipe on Merseyside Today is dead and I can't find it so I have replaced it with a recipe on the BBC website. Tony Corsini ( talk) 08:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
This is merely a comment. I have not researched the facts or for that matter read the article and its discussion too closely.
My initial thought is that maybe there is a circular argument developing. Scouse has an origin as none English term becoming common in English usage in Liverpool area. Initially from term similar to lobscouse possibly Norwegian. German term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labskaus then comes from the English term.
Which term came first and in what order does anyone know ? Would a German term be more likely to come from English than Norwegian, or indeed maybe come from somewhere else, or even be the origin of the Norwegian term.
As I said this is a question/comment. My only interest is that I currently reside in an area close to Liverpool, and so have an interest in reading about local matters. I am not trying to dispute or challenge any facts or statements. JohnH99 ( talk) 19:30, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
The present article lacks citations at numerous points and such citations as there are are a mix of formats. Would anyone object to my giving the article a modest overhaul to address these points? Tim riley talk 08:31, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
(@ Tim riley:, Dyveldi: If I might join the conversation) If there is a merge proposal in here I would have to disagree with it; this article is confused enough as it is.
It is ostensibly about scouse, the meat and potato stew popular on Merseyside, but then talks at length about lobscouse, a sailors dish made from salt meat and ships biscuit. So, which is it? It also mentions Norwegian lapskaus (a stew) and German labskaus (a kind of hash), and some others with similar names. I can see the name (and the names of other, equally varied dishes from the Baltic) derive from a common root, but the dishes don’t. And lumping them all together isn’t going to make that any clearer.
And I have to question the assertion made, without any evidence whatsoever, that scouse is 'almost certainly' German in origin. Scouse is a poor man's stew, made from whatever meat and veg is available: The Germans didn’t invent stew! I note Shipperbottoms article is actually about lobscouse, but the claim is still dubious; German labskaus is a form of hash, not a potage of meat and ships biscuit. If anything, the dishes from the Baltic derive their name from the English (
viz), not the other way round.
I would suggest (in fact, I am proposing to) beefing up (excuse the pun) the content on scouse (the Merseyside stew), and moving some of the more esoteric German language stuff to the Labskaus page. Thoughts?
Swanny18 (
talk) 04:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)The dish is called «Lapskaus» in Norwegian. 158.248.97.83 ( talk) 16:33, 17 November 2022 (UTC)