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Scottish cuisine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article is written in Scottish English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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All other articles on aspects of Scottish life follow the form of "X or/in Scotland," save Scots law. What do folks think of the title of the current article? Canæn 03:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
"Hearty Scots food rich in Meats and Fats". I take it someone here has mistaken the modern "mechanically reclaimed meat" and chippie diet for traditional "scran". Real Scots food, high as it is in dairy products, is as healthy a diet as one can get. With a large part of carbohydrate, essential fats and proteins. "Hearty" to me conjures images of Stews, Broths, Game pies, Stovies, Collops, Cullen Skink, Roast Game, Black bun, Crowtowdie, Atholl Brose with Raspberries, not to mention Chicken Jalfrezi, or the Chieftain o' the puddins. It is a failure of Scots society in the 20/21st c. to appreciate this. This results in most of our quality produce being sent abroad where they appreciate it, and importation of produce of dubious merit here where we couldn't care less supposedly. A vicious cycle emerges, when we are too lazy and lethargic to prepare decent food and rely on shoddy ready-meals and takeaways, thereby lowering our energy levels further. Right, rant over and my kebab awaits.
Seriously, can we try not to go along with the sick man of Europe line, it doesn't seem to be within the remit of this article. Scots food is as diverse as any in Europe and little known apart from Haggis. Surely health issues should be discussed elsewhere, and this page reserved for the joys of Gigot of Mutton, Cock-a -Leekie etc.? Brendandh 23:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I think using this article to describe Scottish cuisine in its ideal form, or as you think it should be, is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Hearty was perhaps a poor choice of word on my part but there's no denying that the failure of Scottish society, as you put it, is very much a real one and a recognition of the atrocious state of the Scottish diet is 100% needed in an article on the Scottish cuisine. Do you honestly think that Cullen Skink and Crowtowdie are more indicative of the everyday diet of your average Scot than, say, a Scotch pie or a pizza crunch? I certainly don't and I think the vast majority of people and printed/web sources based in Scotland, at least in the West, would agree.
There is certainly room to discuss the proud elements of Scottish cuisine but to attempt to "not go along with the sick man of Europe" line is, I'm sorry to say, an attempt not to go along with reality. Nach0king 10:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
If you read the English cuisine article, there is little mention of poor diet, when it is also one of the worst in Europe. So why is this issue of diet and health so prominient in the Scottish cuisine article but not in the others? IManOM ( talk) 11:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Forgive me if this has been raised before. Accordingly with the subject I REALLY do have a big greasy caledonian chip on my shoulder. Surely this is within the remit of Scottish cuisine, not as a byblow of English/UK culturally imperialistic opinion, viz. all the chat about the Scots Tung being a dialect of English. Full English Breakfast surely has its place, (obviously without those dodgy American Hash Browns shewn in the illustration for the so-called English Breakfast :)), But Scotland is the home of the Black pudding, at least in the last hundred or so years, just as Ireland is home to the White pudding, not to mention Scotland's wonderful Square sausage, tattie scone, dumpling, and the recent arrival of haggis as a morning bite.(dubious however, as it's a bit of a "We're different" token). Let's see who has the best coronaries in these islands. I think our menu is far better qualified to stand on its own rather than perch on the back of a Saxon Greasy-spoons menu. Brendandh 00:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion the current article is not written in a neutral point of view. One paragraph in particular concerns me.
In the following
I dont know what can be salvaged fom the above or whether it would be better to delete the whole quoted piece. All views welcome. GameKeeper 23:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The cuisine articles (of Britain) originally started out as British cuisine but for presumably nationalistic reasons someone decided to split out Scottish, Welsh and Irish/Northern Irish and rename the old British article to English cuisine. I think this was a mistake. There is so much crossover here that it makes sens to discuss them all together and then have subsections explaining English/Scots/Welsh/Irish/Cornish etc specialities. I was particularly annoyed when someone removed references to the fact that "Britain became a net importer of food" from the English cuisine article because they, they said in the edit summary "British isn't English", they also removed referenced to Gordon Ramsay because he was born in Scotland. This is where it becomes plain silly and the problem would be solved by simply remerging the articles. Jooler ( talk) 16:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It is widely and citably claimed, whether correct or not, that chicken tikka masala has its origins in Scotland. This has a place in the article. It is currently listed in the section Traditional Scottish foods. What is the cut-off point for "traditional"? As the article is Scottish cuisine should the section simply be "Scottish foods"? Should there instead be separate lists of traditional and (more) modern Scottish foods (the newer cheeses, Tayberries and the pan loaf, already listed; other fusion foods such as haggis pakora; deep fried Mars bars)? Should the section "Scottish beverages" be listed as "Traditional Scottish beverages" for consistency or divided into traditional and modern? Mutt Lunker ( talk) 00:09, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
In an article about Scottish cuisine, the inclusion of a popular dish which, at the very least, is verifiably claimed to have Scottish origins is not "stupid and idiotic". Its inclusion in a list of traditional foods may well be more debatable but if we were to have two lists, there is a problem with deciding what the demarcation of traditional or otherwise is. Per beverages, a solution could simply be to drop the designation "traditional" from the list.
Is your view that Lanark Blue should be removed just in regard to a "Traditional Scottish foods" list or from the article altogether? The article is on Scottish cuisine, as a whole, not just those "passed down through the generations". Whether it's in that list or not, it has a place in the article. Would you like the beverage list to make similar exclusions? Would Irn Bru be "traditional" then? Neeps were still a relatively new and exotic vegetable well into the 19th century but is that old enough to be traditional? The pan loaf, in distinction to the plain loaf, was regarded as novel, posh and exotic not much before (and possibly well after) chicken tikka masala came on the scene. Is it traditional or for the immmigrant (English?) list? On which subject, I would regard a dish created in or notably adopted in Scotland as equally worthy of inclusion whether the creator was from an immigrant community or not. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 16:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Cuisine and diet are two separate issues. Fast food is not Scottish Cuisine even if it is part of the Scottish diet. This article confuses the two and so talk about chips and big macs ought to be removed. IManOM ( talk) 11:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
There are a lot of red-links in the list of Scottish Food's - I hope no one has been making stuff up or adding their own "home recipes" to the list. Every country has...interesting cuisine names but I just want to check! -- Τασουλα ( talk) 16:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
As an American, I have no idea what Heather Ale is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it isn't a character in Irish mythology. Right now, Heather Ale links to Fraoch, which redirects to Fráech who is a hero from the Ulster cycle in Irish mythology but whose article has a small note at the bottom that says that "Fraoch is also the name of the heather ale of the picts". This doesn't really seem helpful at all. I'd clean it up myself, but I don't know anything about Heather Ale. Should it perhaps just be linked to the page on Beer in Scotland? KeithyIrwin ( talk) 07:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the last paragraph of the lead, which reads;
Scottish cuisine is enjoying a renaissance[when?]. In most towns, Chinese and Indian take-away restaurants exist alongside traditional fish and chip shops. In larger towns and cities the cuisine may also include Thai, Japanese, Mexican, Pakistani, Polish and Turkish cuisines.
Apart from the fact that it partially contradicts the description given in the first two paragraphs, I think it misses the point. Indian, Chinese, etc, takaways/restaurants are not 'Scottish cuisine'; they're examples of Indian and Chinese cuisine, which happen to be available in Scotland. There are examples of Indo-Scottish fusion food (an dpossibly others too) which would warrant inclusion, but for now I'd like to remove the whole paragraph. Comments anyone? Santa Suit ( talk) 18:43, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I have a recipe for Welsh Bahn Brach, and one for Irish Barm Brack. Is there a Scottish version? Just an idle question. 71.163.114.49 ( talk) 17:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
A user has twice removed some red links for items that could feasibly and usefully have an article. I requested that they familiarise themself with WP:REDLINK but from their most recent edit summary it would seem they did not. Please restore the links or explain why WP:REDNO would apply here. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 16:29, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
I, and other editors, have reverted persistant good-faith changes to the lead by User talk:JJNito197; to maintain continuity with other articles and because TripAdvisor is not a place to promote personal agendas. If there are objections to the current format, please raise them here first, instead of edit-warring. Obscurasky ( talk) 10:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
The Scots word for spring onion is Syboes (pronounced sigh bees), a mass noun invariable as to Number; and this is the plant's Latin name (derived from Greek). It's perfectly possible, however, that ciboule comes in parallel from the same Classical source. Nuttyskin ( talk) 13:53, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
You're overlooking that it's reliably cited, and the source indeed gives cagoule as the etymology. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 14:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Scottish cuisine article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in Scottish English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
All other articles on aspects of Scottish life follow the form of "X or/in Scotland," save Scots law. What do folks think of the title of the current article? Canæn 03:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
"Hearty Scots food rich in Meats and Fats". I take it someone here has mistaken the modern "mechanically reclaimed meat" and chippie diet for traditional "scran". Real Scots food, high as it is in dairy products, is as healthy a diet as one can get. With a large part of carbohydrate, essential fats and proteins. "Hearty" to me conjures images of Stews, Broths, Game pies, Stovies, Collops, Cullen Skink, Roast Game, Black bun, Crowtowdie, Atholl Brose with Raspberries, not to mention Chicken Jalfrezi, or the Chieftain o' the puddins. It is a failure of Scots society in the 20/21st c. to appreciate this. This results in most of our quality produce being sent abroad where they appreciate it, and importation of produce of dubious merit here where we couldn't care less supposedly. A vicious cycle emerges, when we are too lazy and lethargic to prepare decent food and rely on shoddy ready-meals and takeaways, thereby lowering our energy levels further. Right, rant over and my kebab awaits.
Seriously, can we try not to go along with the sick man of Europe line, it doesn't seem to be within the remit of this article. Scots food is as diverse as any in Europe and little known apart from Haggis. Surely health issues should be discussed elsewhere, and this page reserved for the joys of Gigot of Mutton, Cock-a -Leekie etc.? Brendandh 23:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I think using this article to describe Scottish cuisine in its ideal form, or as you think it should be, is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Hearty was perhaps a poor choice of word on my part but there's no denying that the failure of Scottish society, as you put it, is very much a real one and a recognition of the atrocious state of the Scottish diet is 100% needed in an article on the Scottish cuisine. Do you honestly think that Cullen Skink and Crowtowdie are more indicative of the everyday diet of your average Scot than, say, a Scotch pie or a pizza crunch? I certainly don't and I think the vast majority of people and printed/web sources based in Scotland, at least in the West, would agree.
There is certainly room to discuss the proud elements of Scottish cuisine but to attempt to "not go along with the sick man of Europe" line is, I'm sorry to say, an attempt not to go along with reality. Nach0king 10:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
If you read the English cuisine article, there is little mention of poor diet, when it is also one of the worst in Europe. So why is this issue of diet and health so prominient in the Scottish cuisine article but not in the others? IManOM ( talk) 11:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Forgive me if this has been raised before. Accordingly with the subject I REALLY do have a big greasy caledonian chip on my shoulder. Surely this is within the remit of Scottish cuisine, not as a byblow of English/UK culturally imperialistic opinion, viz. all the chat about the Scots Tung being a dialect of English. Full English Breakfast surely has its place, (obviously without those dodgy American Hash Browns shewn in the illustration for the so-called English Breakfast :)), But Scotland is the home of the Black pudding, at least in the last hundred or so years, just as Ireland is home to the White pudding, not to mention Scotland's wonderful Square sausage, tattie scone, dumpling, and the recent arrival of haggis as a morning bite.(dubious however, as it's a bit of a "We're different" token). Let's see who has the best coronaries in these islands. I think our menu is far better qualified to stand on its own rather than perch on the back of a Saxon Greasy-spoons menu. Brendandh 00:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion the current article is not written in a neutral point of view. One paragraph in particular concerns me.
In the following
I dont know what can be salvaged fom the above or whether it would be better to delete the whole quoted piece. All views welcome. GameKeeper 23:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The cuisine articles (of Britain) originally started out as British cuisine but for presumably nationalistic reasons someone decided to split out Scottish, Welsh and Irish/Northern Irish and rename the old British article to English cuisine. I think this was a mistake. There is so much crossover here that it makes sens to discuss them all together and then have subsections explaining English/Scots/Welsh/Irish/Cornish etc specialities. I was particularly annoyed when someone removed references to the fact that "Britain became a net importer of food" from the English cuisine article because they, they said in the edit summary "British isn't English", they also removed referenced to Gordon Ramsay because he was born in Scotland. This is where it becomes plain silly and the problem would be solved by simply remerging the articles. Jooler ( talk) 16:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It is widely and citably claimed, whether correct or not, that chicken tikka masala has its origins in Scotland. This has a place in the article. It is currently listed in the section Traditional Scottish foods. What is the cut-off point for "traditional"? As the article is Scottish cuisine should the section simply be "Scottish foods"? Should there instead be separate lists of traditional and (more) modern Scottish foods (the newer cheeses, Tayberries and the pan loaf, already listed; other fusion foods such as haggis pakora; deep fried Mars bars)? Should the section "Scottish beverages" be listed as "Traditional Scottish beverages" for consistency or divided into traditional and modern? Mutt Lunker ( talk) 00:09, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
In an article about Scottish cuisine, the inclusion of a popular dish which, at the very least, is verifiably claimed to have Scottish origins is not "stupid and idiotic". Its inclusion in a list of traditional foods may well be more debatable but if we were to have two lists, there is a problem with deciding what the demarcation of traditional or otherwise is. Per beverages, a solution could simply be to drop the designation "traditional" from the list.
Is your view that Lanark Blue should be removed just in regard to a "Traditional Scottish foods" list or from the article altogether? The article is on Scottish cuisine, as a whole, not just those "passed down through the generations". Whether it's in that list or not, it has a place in the article. Would you like the beverage list to make similar exclusions? Would Irn Bru be "traditional" then? Neeps were still a relatively new and exotic vegetable well into the 19th century but is that old enough to be traditional? The pan loaf, in distinction to the plain loaf, was regarded as novel, posh and exotic not much before (and possibly well after) chicken tikka masala came on the scene. Is it traditional or for the immmigrant (English?) list? On which subject, I would regard a dish created in or notably adopted in Scotland as equally worthy of inclusion whether the creator was from an immigrant community or not. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 16:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Cuisine and diet are two separate issues. Fast food is not Scottish Cuisine even if it is part of the Scottish diet. This article confuses the two and so talk about chips and big macs ought to be removed. IManOM ( talk) 11:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
There are a lot of red-links in the list of Scottish Food's - I hope no one has been making stuff up or adding their own "home recipes" to the list. Every country has...interesting cuisine names but I just want to check! -- Τασουλα ( talk) 16:36, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
As an American, I have no idea what Heather Ale is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it isn't a character in Irish mythology. Right now, Heather Ale links to Fraoch, which redirects to Fráech who is a hero from the Ulster cycle in Irish mythology but whose article has a small note at the bottom that says that "Fraoch is also the name of the heather ale of the picts". This doesn't really seem helpful at all. I'd clean it up myself, but I don't know anything about Heather Ale. Should it perhaps just be linked to the page on Beer in Scotland? KeithyIrwin ( talk) 07:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the last paragraph of the lead, which reads;
Scottish cuisine is enjoying a renaissance[when?]. In most towns, Chinese and Indian take-away restaurants exist alongside traditional fish and chip shops. In larger towns and cities the cuisine may also include Thai, Japanese, Mexican, Pakistani, Polish and Turkish cuisines.
Apart from the fact that it partially contradicts the description given in the first two paragraphs, I think it misses the point. Indian, Chinese, etc, takaways/restaurants are not 'Scottish cuisine'; they're examples of Indian and Chinese cuisine, which happen to be available in Scotland. There are examples of Indo-Scottish fusion food (an dpossibly others too) which would warrant inclusion, but for now I'd like to remove the whole paragraph. Comments anyone? Santa Suit ( talk) 18:43, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I have a recipe for Welsh Bahn Brach, and one for Irish Barm Brack. Is there a Scottish version? Just an idle question. 71.163.114.49 ( talk) 17:55, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
A user has twice removed some red links for items that could feasibly and usefully have an article. I requested that they familiarise themself with WP:REDLINK but from their most recent edit summary it would seem they did not. Please restore the links or explain why WP:REDNO would apply here. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 16:29, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
I, and other editors, have reverted persistant good-faith changes to the lead by User talk:JJNito197; to maintain continuity with other articles and because TripAdvisor is not a place to promote personal agendas. If there are objections to the current format, please raise them here first, instead of edit-warring. Obscurasky ( talk) 10:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
The Scots word for spring onion is Syboes (pronounced sigh bees), a mass noun invariable as to Number; and this is the plant's Latin name (derived from Greek). It's perfectly possible, however, that ciboule comes in parallel from the same Classical source. Nuttyskin ( talk) 13:53, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
You're overlooking that it's reliably cited, and the source indeed gives cagoule as the etymology. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 14:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)