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Past discussion: Talk:Scott_Baio/Archive_1#Birth_year
Some early press might help clear it up. He's quoted as saying he was 13 when shooting Bugsy, but as far as I can tell, it was a relatively quickly made film.
I think 1960 is questionable enough that it requires better sources to stand alone. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:02, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Hmmm. -- Ronz ( talk) 23:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I've found two quotes from him where he explicitly denies 1961. From his own mouth, it seems like it was an IMDb error that stuck around a while, which would explain the stray mentions of it in Time and such. Nohomersryan ( talk) 17:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
The New York Birth Index also supports 1960. Muzilon ( talk) 05:16, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
This issue is nonsense because Baio put the dispute to rest, in his own voice, on his official Twitter: ("My birthday is September 22, 1960). [1] Are there any reliable sources unequivocally in Baio's own voice saying that his birth year is 1961? No. If you think I'm wrong, please provide the proof. Even the New York Birth Index confirms it's 1960, as do similar websites which get DOBs from official sources. Right now, the only evidence holding the 1961 argument together is an incorrect IMDb mention years ago (now corrected) that some publications copied and printed, including the current, lone reliable source supporting 1961, Time magazine, in which Mark Halperin injected 1961 after taking it from the other website. Everyone here knows now that he was born in 1960 so why pretend it's not so and continue fighting for the sole purpose of playing devil's advocate? 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 21:36, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Since you wouldn't, or couldn't, provide the proof I was asking for to support your position, I did it for you because I only want accurate, solid content in the article. [5] Having a reliable source in Baio's own voice saying he was born in 1961 was vital to this dispute. All the other evidence was very weak. Although this AP source is great, it's also very old (20 years), which indicates that for some unknown reason Baio portrayed himself as being a year younger at that time. Subsequently, he stopped doing that and apparently wanted to make that clear with the relatively recent post on his Twitter account that he was born in 1960. He also did that in 2017 when he acknowledged turning 57. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 21:29, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Yet another unequivocal statement from Baio on his official Twitter account that his DOB is September 22, 1960. [6] "I was born Sept 22 19-SIXTY (NOT 1961) the media has always had it wrong." 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 23:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
We've already established that he's given both 60 and 61 as his year of birth, so we have to use independent sources at this point. We have two reliable sources for the two years, so we've been including both. -- Hipal/Ronz ( talk) 15:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Note that in a previous discussion ( Talk:Scott_Baio/Archive_1#Could_someone_flesh_out_Early_life_with_this_from_1977_interview, Baio is quoted as giving 1962 as well. I've not been able to find a copy of the reference to verify it. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
His own website said 1961 [3] [4], until 2010 when it was changed to 1960 [5]. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be changed as he's now acting again. 109.150.194.28 ( talk) 17:57, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Relevant policies are WP:BLP (especially WP:DOB, and note the 2021 RFC), WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:NPOV.
My take is that we list '60 and '61. The one ref for '62 is worth considering. I'm not finding any reliable sources for '59, nor any other years.
How much, if any, weight does Baio's recent tweets deserve, given that he's stated at least three different years, and the majority of his life he's said '61? My interpretation of policy and the general consensus is to leave them out completely, unless there's an independent, reliable source that discusses the different years. As I already pointed out, a correction from Baio would be worth considering. I expect we'll be headed to BLPN at some point, but I'd like to be at a point where all proposals are supported by policy. -- Hipal ( talk) 01:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
The lede ideally should not have any references, as it summarizes the article body. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus
per
MOS:LEADCITE. --
Hipal (
talk) 16:42, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead.The guideline also tells us that
there is not...an exception to citation requirements specific to leads.We'll assume that you're not disputing the glaring fact that the debate over the subject's birth year began over eight years ago. The birth date or year is not even mentioned in the body. Finally, it should also be noted that your edit history shows that you added a ref to the lead as early as 2018, when you took control of this message board, and also did so as recently as a few days ago. You also restored the infamous Time magazine source in 2018 that had been removed. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 18:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm not clear on what, if any, indication should be used when multiple possible birth dates are presented (eg some articles mention "sources differ"). I'll look further, but this might be best to bring to BLPN. -- Hipal ( talk) 21:53, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
A reminder to other editors that you are welcome to participate in the two previously-existing threads that Hipal/Ron started, rather than continuing the confusion caused by this third discussion he started on the same topic: "Birth year" (thread 1) and "He's not reliable for his own birth year" (thread 2). 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 00:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
I've made a version that I believe meets the relevant policies and general consensus for similar situations: [6]. -- Hipal ( talk) 01:32, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
It might be helpful to examine all references for dob information. My impression is that few said '60 before the reality shows, and very slowly '61 became more common after. If there's anything about the discrepancy in a reliable source, it would be helpful to include. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
As a side note biography.com used to list '61: [7] -- Hipal ( talk) 16:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
As we seem to still have a dispute, I'll give them a look over. -- Hipal ( talk) 22:40, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Here's an archive for the Confessions... ref: https://web.archive.org/web/20090106004523/http://www.vh1.com/shows/dyn/confessions_of_a_teen_idol/series_about.jhtml -- Hipal ( talk) 22:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Inadvertent. Stoarm ( talk) 17:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Editors may view the entire discussion, which has been closed. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 21:54, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
I've been running across mentions of pre-Bugsy acting. It might be worth searching for early biographies written around his success in Bugsy and Happy Days. -- Hipal ( talk) 20:16, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Current references in dispute: ...1960 [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] or 1961 [16] [17]
References
Born in Brooklyn, New York on Sept. 22, 1960
Scott Vincent James Baio was born in Brooklyn, New York, on September 22, 1960
Per V, OR, and POV; we don't add references to demonstrate weight or viewpoints not actually in the references.
Per NOT, POV, and OR; we don't use non-independent sources to highlight the viewpoints in them without independent sources demonstrating that those viewpoints are noteworthy and of encyclopedic value. Such independent sources have not been found.
To address these problems, I continue to propose that we remove all but the Newsweek and AP references. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:42, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Baio states he was born September 22, 1960, although for much of his career, it was reported that he was born in 1961 or 1962.Schazjmd (talk) 23:55, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
a clear and consistent date of birth has been widely reported(quote from the RfC). I didn't find either, which puts us in a situation where it's unclear what to do beyond list '60 and '61, possibly '62 as well.
If multiple independent reliable sources state differing years or dates of birth in conflict, the consensus is to include all birth dates/years for which a reliable source exists, clearly noting discrepancies. In this situation, editors must not include only one date/year which they consider "most likely", or include merely a single date from one of two or more reliable sources. Original research must not be used to extrapolate the date of birth
After hours of searching for and requesting any reliable sources for a DOB of 1961 __in Baio's own voice__, I finally found a solid one.[11] -- Hipal ( talk) 03:34, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
A verified social media account of an article subject saying about themselves something along the lines of "today is my 50th birthday" may fall under self-published sources for purposes of reporting a full date of birth. It may be usable if there is no reason to doubt it.1 Besides Baio having a 50th birthday celebration in 2010, and 60th in 2020, which received media coverage, we have, most importantly, his multiple tweets unequivocally stating his full birth date. Cherry-picking information from (unlinked) policies, guidelines, and other useful pages creates an impediment to problem-solving. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 14:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Anyone against removing all but three refs, as in: ...September 22, 1960 [1] [2] or 1961 [3]
(I'm not concerned at this moment which location in the article this is done, or if we group these refs into a single note) -- Hipal ( talk) 16:03, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
References
@Schazjmd, please indicate if you would be willing to start an RFC? If not, another unbiased editor can be found. We cannot make any changes to the disputed content until we receive input from numerous editors over an appropriate period of time and reach a clear consensus. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 03:18, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and reduced the references to just three. -- Hipal ( talk) 15:29, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Going over the items listed above: -- Hipal ( talk) 17:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I was born on September 22, 1962...The ref was rejected then, so it may be best to do so again. The information on his pre-Bugsy work might be worth a mention though. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I looked for current references for '61, and the best I could find is
https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrities/scott-baio/ . I did find lots poor or unreliable sources likely based upon old versions of this Wikipedia article, or similarly unreliable or outdated references. --
Hipal (
talk) 20:29, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Meanwhile, I'll be reverting to the compromise to reduce the refs to just three, as there are still no responses. I'd prefer just two. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
No reliable sources related to the disputed content will be removed until a proper discussion, such as an RfC, with input from numerous editors takes place, and then an uninvolved editor analyzes the responses and makes a determination. Stoarm ( talk) 18:18, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I'm moving ahead with #4 above, a note describing the discrepancies with the references. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:47, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
In one ear... Resolution necessitates each party doing a lot of listening and very little talking. When that forumla is reversed, failure is virtually guaranteed. Stoarm ( talk) 17:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
As far as the #4 note goes, my main concerns are SYN/OR problems making any general statement about sources, eg "Baio's year of birth was widely reported as 1961 through most of his career, but 1960 is now widely reported." vs "Sources differ. 1960 is currently widely reported, but 1961 was common throughout most of his career." -- Hipal ( talk) 18:19, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
...and out the other. No changes to the disputed content can be made until a proper discussion, such as an RfC, with input from numerous editors takes place, and then an uninvolved editor analyzes the responses and makes a determination. If one believes they are right, they should not fear and avoid the unbiased scrutiny of others. To stop talking and start listening takes courage. Stoarm ( talk) 19:14, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
"Sources differ. Baio's year of birth was widely reported as 1961 through most of his career, but references currently report 1960". I'd rather leave it to others, but it's a start. -- Hipal ( talk) 19:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
References
Talking non-stop for nearly four years and ignoring all input from virtually every editor. WP:NOTTHERE. WP:RFC. Stoarm ( talk) 02:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Ignoring prior warning to use sandbox and not article for test edits, and previewing intent to continue hostile and escalating behavior. 1 2 3 Stoarm ( talk) 03:05, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
So we have a proposal, strongly supported by policy and relevant general consensus [14]. I was unable to get alternative proposals from anyone else after over a month of discussion. I think focus should be on what we can state in a footnote given what references we have available. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
If one believes they are right, they should not fear and avoid the unbiased scrutiny of others. To stop talking and start listening takes courage. Stoarm ( talk) 16:36, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
So no policy-based objections then. -- Hipal ( talk) 20:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Resolution necessitates each party doing a lot of listening and very little talking. When that forumla is reversed, failure is virtually guaranteed. No changes to the disputed content can be made until a proper discussion, such as an RfC, with input from numerous editors takes place, and then an uninvolved editor analyzes the responses and makes a determination. Stoarm ( talk) 14:08, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
A verified social media account of an article subject saying about themselves something along the lines of "today is my 50th birthday" may fall under self-published sources for purposes of reporting a full date of birth. It may be usable if there is no reason to doubt it.4 We of course have this and this. Stoarm ( talk) 18:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Milowent, please give your thoughts on the current version, so that we can determine if we finally have a resolution. Let us know if the note, as opposed to covering it in the text, is acceptable to you. I think the note eliminates unnecessary drama that text might bring to the article. Either way, thank you. Your common sense, civility, and good humor has (hopefully) guided us to a speedy end to this very long-standing dispute. Stoarm ( talk) 07:01, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed two of the primary sources. I changed the biography.com archive link to the earliest version, where afterwards I noticed it has both dates. This should probably not be treated as reliable then. It would be good to have a very early, reliable source for '60. -- Hipal ( talk) 15:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Any further surreptitious changes to sources related to DOB without consensus will be reverted. Stoarm ( talk) 22:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The current note ("a") reads, "Baio was born in 1960, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] though some past sources have said 1961. [7] [8]"
Born in Brooklyn, New York on Sept. 22, 1960
Scott Vincent James Baio was born in Brooklyn, New York, on September 22, 1960
Reviewing the references in more detail than the previous discussion, since we are still stuck on them for unclear reasons: -- Hipal ( talk) 18:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Since we don't have any references that discuss the different dates, there's no need for multiple independent sources, and providing them suggests POV and OR problems. Yes, it would be nice to have some very early and late instances for each date on this talk page to consider. We should probably add the ref for '62 as well, but first we need to get some basic adherence to BLP reference quality policy. -- Hipal ( talk) 18:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
"since we are still stuck on them"."We"? Clearly, the only editor that's "stuck" is you. Read the room... literally. Stoarm ( talk) 19:15, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Quoting from User_talk:Milowent#Update:
They want to remove four refs, including one of the two Baio tweets from his official account, both which are vital to settling the dispute.
I will support whatever resolution you feel is best, as long as no more than three refs are removed, both Baio tweets stay, and the article text stays as-is.
Let's see what we can do with just removing three refs then, keeping the two tweets:
The worst two, not counting the tweets: (Scottbaio.com 2017) and (Biography.com 2017), The next worse isn't as clear, but I'd say (Newsweek 2016).
Is it ok to remove those three? --
Hipal (
talk) 15:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Milowent: Do you agree to the proposal? -- Hipal ( talk) 18:28, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
RfC then. -- Hipal ( talk) 19:31, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
My preferred version ( [18] [19]) changes the note to: "Baio was born in 1960, [1] [2] though earlier sources state 1961. [3] [4]"
References
Scott Vincent James Baio was born in Brooklyn, New York, on September 22, 1960
Some early refs (published in the 70s or 80s) would be helpful. Maybe add the NY Birth Index ref? -- Hipal ( talk) 16:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Let's close the book on this birthdate dispute once and for all. Go ahead and make the changes you feel are most appropriate and will not diminish the overall credibility of the article. And to answer your question: yes, I think the NY Birth Index ref should be added if you feel it's appropriate to do so. Stoarm ( talk) 13:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Other entertainment magazines to search: The Hollywood Reporter, Us Weekly, Variety -- Hipal ( talk) 16:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
The current UPI ref verifies '62. I think it's enough for '62, with or without using 16 or Tiger Beat. -- Hipal ( talk) 18:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Why is the photo of Baio in the infobox so old and bad? Are there no better ones? Forgive me if this is foolishness, for I am an infant and cannot speak. JGT Webb ( talk) 18:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Baio's wedding to Sloan was reported to be in December'07, as the People ref verifies. However, non-disclosures from the television production makes it difficult to determine if their legal marriage date was actually Sep 14, as the Baio's subsequently said. I'm hesitant to use scottbaio.com alone, given the discussions we've already had about it. I'm not finding any refs of similar or better quality than People confirming September. --
Hipal (
talk) 15:48, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
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Past discussion: Talk:Scott_Baio/Archive_1#Birth_year
Some early press might help clear it up. He's quoted as saying he was 13 when shooting Bugsy, but as far as I can tell, it was a relatively quickly made film.
I think 1960 is questionable enough that it requires better sources to stand alone. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:02, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
Hmmm. -- Ronz ( talk) 23:23, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I've found two quotes from him where he explicitly denies 1961. From his own mouth, it seems like it was an IMDb error that stuck around a while, which would explain the stray mentions of it in Time and such. Nohomersryan ( talk) 17:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
The New York Birth Index also supports 1960. Muzilon ( talk) 05:16, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
This issue is nonsense because Baio put the dispute to rest, in his own voice, on his official Twitter: ("My birthday is September 22, 1960). [1] Are there any reliable sources unequivocally in Baio's own voice saying that his birth year is 1961? No. If you think I'm wrong, please provide the proof. Even the New York Birth Index confirms it's 1960, as do similar websites which get DOBs from official sources. Right now, the only evidence holding the 1961 argument together is an incorrect IMDb mention years ago (now corrected) that some publications copied and printed, including the current, lone reliable source supporting 1961, Time magazine, in which Mark Halperin injected 1961 after taking it from the other website. Everyone here knows now that he was born in 1960 so why pretend it's not so and continue fighting for the sole purpose of playing devil's advocate? 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 21:36, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Since you wouldn't, or couldn't, provide the proof I was asking for to support your position, I did it for you because I only want accurate, solid content in the article. [5] Having a reliable source in Baio's own voice saying he was born in 1961 was vital to this dispute. All the other evidence was very weak. Although this AP source is great, it's also very old (20 years), which indicates that for some unknown reason Baio portrayed himself as being a year younger at that time. Subsequently, he stopped doing that and apparently wanted to make that clear with the relatively recent post on his Twitter account that he was born in 1960. He also did that in 2017 when he acknowledged turning 57. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 21:29, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Yet another unequivocal statement from Baio on his official Twitter account that his DOB is September 22, 1960. [6] "I was born Sept 22 19-SIXTY (NOT 1961) the media has always had it wrong." 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 23:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
We've already established that he's given both 60 and 61 as his year of birth, so we have to use independent sources at this point. We have two reliable sources for the two years, so we've been including both. -- Hipal/Ronz ( talk) 15:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Note that in a previous discussion ( Talk:Scott_Baio/Archive_1#Could_someone_flesh_out_Early_life_with_this_from_1977_interview, Baio is quoted as giving 1962 as well. I've not been able to find a copy of the reference to verify it. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
His own website said 1961 [3] [4], until 2010 when it was changed to 1960 [5]. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be changed as he's now acting again. 109.150.194.28 ( talk) 17:57, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Relevant policies are WP:BLP (especially WP:DOB, and note the 2021 RFC), WP:V, WP:RS, WP:OR, WP:NPOV.
My take is that we list '60 and '61. The one ref for '62 is worth considering. I'm not finding any reliable sources for '59, nor any other years.
How much, if any, weight does Baio's recent tweets deserve, given that he's stated at least three different years, and the majority of his life he's said '61? My interpretation of policy and the general consensus is to leave them out completely, unless there's an independent, reliable source that discusses the different years. As I already pointed out, a correction from Baio would be worth considering. I expect we'll be headed to BLPN at some point, but I'd like to be at a point where all proposals are supported by policy. -- Hipal ( talk) 01:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
The lede ideally should not have any references, as it summarizes the article body. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus
per
MOS:LEADCITE. --
Hipal (
talk) 16:42, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead.The guideline also tells us that
there is not...an exception to citation requirements specific to leads.We'll assume that you're not disputing the glaring fact that the debate over the subject's birth year began over eight years ago. The birth date or year is not even mentioned in the body. Finally, it should also be noted that your edit history shows that you added a ref to the lead as early as 2018, when you took control of this message board, and also did so as recently as a few days ago. You also restored the infamous Time magazine source in 2018 that had been removed. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 18:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
I'm not clear on what, if any, indication should be used when multiple possible birth dates are presented (eg some articles mention "sources differ"). I'll look further, but this might be best to bring to BLPN. -- Hipal ( talk) 21:53, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
A reminder to other editors that you are welcome to participate in the two previously-existing threads that Hipal/Ron started, rather than continuing the confusion caused by this third discussion he started on the same topic: "Birth year" (thread 1) and "He's not reliable for his own birth year" (thread 2). 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 00:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
I've made a version that I believe meets the relevant policies and general consensus for similar situations: [6]. -- Hipal ( talk) 01:32, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
It might be helpful to examine all references for dob information. My impression is that few said '60 before the reality shows, and very slowly '61 became more common after. If there's anything about the discrepancy in a reliable source, it would be helpful to include. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
As a side note biography.com used to list '61: [7] -- Hipal ( talk) 16:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
As we seem to still have a dispute, I'll give them a look over. -- Hipal ( talk) 22:40, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Here's an archive for the Confessions... ref: https://web.archive.org/web/20090106004523/http://www.vh1.com/shows/dyn/confessions_of_a_teen_idol/series_about.jhtml -- Hipal ( talk) 22:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Inadvertent. Stoarm ( talk) 17:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Editors may view the entire discussion, which has been closed. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 21:54, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
I've been running across mentions of pre-Bugsy acting. It might be worth searching for early biographies written around his success in Bugsy and Happy Days. -- Hipal ( talk) 20:16, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Current references in dispute: ...1960 [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] or 1961 [16] [17]
References
Born in Brooklyn, New York on Sept. 22, 1960
Scott Vincent James Baio was born in Brooklyn, New York, on September 22, 1960
Per V, OR, and POV; we don't add references to demonstrate weight or viewpoints not actually in the references.
Per NOT, POV, and OR; we don't use non-independent sources to highlight the viewpoints in them without independent sources demonstrating that those viewpoints are noteworthy and of encyclopedic value. Such independent sources have not been found.
To address these problems, I continue to propose that we remove all but the Newsweek and AP references. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:42, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Baio states he was born September 22, 1960, although for much of his career, it was reported that he was born in 1961 or 1962.Schazjmd (talk) 23:55, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
a clear and consistent date of birth has been widely reported(quote from the RfC). I didn't find either, which puts us in a situation where it's unclear what to do beyond list '60 and '61, possibly '62 as well.
If multiple independent reliable sources state differing years or dates of birth in conflict, the consensus is to include all birth dates/years for which a reliable source exists, clearly noting discrepancies. In this situation, editors must not include only one date/year which they consider "most likely", or include merely a single date from one of two or more reliable sources. Original research must not be used to extrapolate the date of birth
After hours of searching for and requesting any reliable sources for a DOB of 1961 __in Baio's own voice__, I finally found a solid one.[11] -- Hipal ( talk) 03:34, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
A verified social media account of an article subject saying about themselves something along the lines of "today is my 50th birthday" may fall under self-published sources for purposes of reporting a full date of birth. It may be usable if there is no reason to doubt it.1 Besides Baio having a 50th birthday celebration in 2010, and 60th in 2020, which received media coverage, we have, most importantly, his multiple tweets unequivocally stating his full birth date. Cherry-picking information from (unlinked) policies, guidelines, and other useful pages creates an impediment to problem-solving. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 14:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Anyone against removing all but three refs, as in: ...September 22, 1960 [1] [2] or 1961 [3]
(I'm not concerned at this moment which location in the article this is done, or if we group these refs into a single note) -- Hipal ( talk) 16:03, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
References
@Schazjmd, please indicate if you would be willing to start an RFC? If not, another unbiased editor can be found. We cannot make any changes to the disputed content until we receive input from numerous editors over an appropriate period of time and reach a clear consensus. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 ( talk) 03:18, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and reduced the references to just three. -- Hipal ( talk) 15:29, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Going over the items listed above: -- Hipal ( talk) 17:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I was born on September 22, 1962...The ref was rejected then, so it may be best to do so again. The information on his pre-Bugsy work might be worth a mention though. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I looked for current references for '61, and the best I could find is
https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrities/scott-baio/ . I did find lots poor or unreliable sources likely based upon old versions of this Wikipedia article, or similarly unreliable or outdated references. --
Hipal (
talk) 20:29, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Meanwhile, I'll be reverting to the compromise to reduce the refs to just three, as there are still no responses. I'd prefer just two. -- Hipal ( talk) 17:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
No reliable sources related to the disputed content will be removed until a proper discussion, such as an RfC, with input from numerous editors takes place, and then an uninvolved editor analyzes the responses and makes a determination. Stoarm ( talk) 18:18, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
I'm moving ahead with #4 above, a note describing the discrepancies with the references. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:47, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
In one ear... Resolution necessitates each party doing a lot of listening and very little talking. When that forumla is reversed, failure is virtually guaranteed. Stoarm ( talk) 17:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
As far as the #4 note goes, my main concerns are SYN/OR problems making any general statement about sources, eg "Baio's year of birth was widely reported as 1961 through most of his career, but 1960 is now widely reported." vs "Sources differ. 1960 is currently widely reported, but 1961 was common throughout most of his career." -- Hipal ( talk) 18:19, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
...and out the other. No changes to the disputed content can be made until a proper discussion, such as an RfC, with input from numerous editors takes place, and then an uninvolved editor analyzes the responses and makes a determination. If one believes they are right, they should not fear and avoid the unbiased scrutiny of others. To stop talking and start listening takes courage. Stoarm ( talk) 19:14, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
"Sources differ. Baio's year of birth was widely reported as 1961 through most of his career, but references currently report 1960". I'd rather leave it to others, but it's a start. -- Hipal ( talk) 19:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
References
Talking non-stop for nearly four years and ignoring all input from virtually every editor. WP:NOTTHERE. WP:RFC. Stoarm ( talk) 02:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Ignoring prior warning to use sandbox and not article for test edits, and previewing intent to continue hostile and escalating behavior. 1 2 3 Stoarm ( talk) 03:05, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
So we have a proposal, strongly supported by policy and relevant general consensus [14]. I was unable to get alternative proposals from anyone else after over a month of discussion. I think focus should be on what we can state in a footnote given what references we have available. -- Hipal ( talk) 16:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
If one believes they are right, they should not fear and avoid the unbiased scrutiny of others. To stop talking and start listening takes courage. Stoarm ( talk) 16:36, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
So no policy-based objections then. -- Hipal ( talk) 20:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Resolution necessitates each party doing a lot of listening and very little talking. When that forumla is reversed, failure is virtually guaranteed. No changes to the disputed content can be made until a proper discussion, such as an RfC, with input from numerous editors takes place, and then an uninvolved editor analyzes the responses and makes a determination. Stoarm ( talk) 14:08, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
A verified social media account of an article subject saying about themselves something along the lines of "today is my 50th birthday" may fall under self-published sources for purposes of reporting a full date of birth. It may be usable if there is no reason to doubt it.4 We of course have this and this. Stoarm ( talk) 18:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Milowent, please give your thoughts on the current version, so that we can determine if we finally have a resolution. Let us know if the note, as opposed to covering it in the text, is acceptable to you. I think the note eliminates unnecessary drama that text might bring to the article. Either way, thank you. Your common sense, civility, and good humor has (hopefully) guided us to a speedy end to this very long-standing dispute. Stoarm ( talk) 07:01, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed two of the primary sources. I changed the biography.com archive link to the earliest version, where afterwards I noticed it has both dates. This should probably not be treated as reliable then. It would be good to have a very early, reliable source for '60. -- Hipal ( talk) 15:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Any further surreptitious changes to sources related to DOB without consensus will be reverted. Stoarm ( talk) 22:16, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The current note ("a") reads, "Baio was born in 1960, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] though some past sources have said 1961. [7] [8]"
Born in Brooklyn, New York on Sept. 22, 1960
Scott Vincent James Baio was born in Brooklyn, New York, on September 22, 1960
Reviewing the references in more detail than the previous discussion, since we are still stuck on them for unclear reasons: -- Hipal ( talk) 18:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Since we don't have any references that discuss the different dates, there's no need for multiple independent sources, and providing them suggests POV and OR problems. Yes, it would be nice to have some very early and late instances for each date on this talk page to consider. We should probably add the ref for '62 as well, but first we need to get some basic adherence to BLP reference quality policy. -- Hipal ( talk) 18:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
"since we are still stuck on them"."We"? Clearly, the only editor that's "stuck" is you. Read the room... literally. Stoarm ( talk) 19:15, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Quoting from User_talk:Milowent#Update:
They want to remove four refs, including one of the two Baio tweets from his official account, both which are vital to settling the dispute.
I will support whatever resolution you feel is best, as long as no more than three refs are removed, both Baio tweets stay, and the article text stays as-is.
Let's see what we can do with just removing three refs then, keeping the two tweets:
The worst two, not counting the tweets: (Scottbaio.com 2017) and (Biography.com 2017), The next worse isn't as clear, but I'd say (Newsweek 2016).
Is it ok to remove those three? --
Hipal (
talk) 15:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Milowent: Do you agree to the proposal? -- Hipal ( talk) 18:28, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
RfC then. -- Hipal ( talk) 19:31, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
My preferred version ( [18] [19]) changes the note to: "Baio was born in 1960, [1] [2] though earlier sources state 1961. [3] [4]"
References
Scott Vincent James Baio was born in Brooklyn, New York, on September 22, 1960
Some early refs (published in the 70s or 80s) would be helpful. Maybe add the NY Birth Index ref? -- Hipal ( talk) 16:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
Let's close the book on this birthdate dispute once and for all. Go ahead and make the changes you feel are most appropriate and will not diminish the overall credibility of the article. And to answer your question: yes, I think the NY Birth Index ref should be added if you feel it's appropriate to do so. Stoarm ( talk) 13:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Other entertainment magazines to search: The Hollywood Reporter, Us Weekly, Variety -- Hipal ( talk) 16:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
The current UPI ref verifies '62. I think it's enough for '62, with or without using 16 or Tiger Beat. -- Hipal ( talk) 18:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Why is the photo of Baio in the infobox so old and bad? Are there no better ones? Forgive me if this is foolishness, for I am an infant and cannot speak. JGT Webb ( talk) 18:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Baio's wedding to Sloan was reported to be in December'07, as the People ref verifies. However, non-disclosures from the television production makes it difficult to determine if their legal marriage date was actually Sep 14, as the Baio's subsequently said. I'm hesitant to use scottbaio.com alone, given the discussions we've already had about it. I'm not finding any refs of similar or better quality than People confirming September. --
Hipal (
talk) 15:48, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
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