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The official National Anthem for Scotland is "God Save the Queen" as all countries under the rule of Westminster have this national anthem. This not only applies to Scotland but also Bermuda and other British Overseas Territories (BOTs) as well as Wales and Nothern Ireland. The only places this does not apply to are the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man and this is because they are not under the rule of Westminster and are not considered not to be BOTs but Crown Dependents". ( Alxh 13:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC))
or Pop goes the Weasel. In the face of this it is a bit disingenuous to argue over what must be or must not be the National Anthem of any part of the UK. All we can record is what the people of the UK believe to be their National Anthem. And people in different parts of the UK have different opinions. It's up to Wikipedia to record this situation -- not to simplify the truth out of existence. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
(deindent) If you don't understand what consensus is, then don't pretend to. I made an edit which was originally reverted. I realised why it was reverted and made alterations accordingly. Then that was undone for aboslutely no reason whatsoever. Just because I might be in a minority does not mean that I don't have a right to try and reach a compromise. Biofoundationsoflanguage 12:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. | ” |
GStQ simply is not the, or a , national anthem of Scotland. The fact that it is the national anthem for the UK, of which Scotland is a part, does not have any bearing on this. siarach 12:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I wish you'd all make your bally minds up. Gaelic has the SAME official status in Scotland as Scots. The ONLY difference is that the BnG has been established with a view to eventually securing a status for Gaelic equal to that of English. There is no equivalent body for Scots. Contrary to links in the article, GAELIC HAS NO OFFICIAL LANGUAGE STATUS in Scotland other than, as with Scots, under the terms of the ECRML, as ratified by the UK Govt. If the BnG achieves what it was set up to then the next step along the course of achieving official status will be for Gaelic to mirror the status of Welsh in Wales, which must be treated as being equal to English by all public bodies. The claim that official status is conferred upon Gaelic but not Scots is wrong, as the only difference between the two is the presence of a Govt. body promoting the use of Gaelic versus the lack of an equivalent body for Scots. Other than this, their status is equal under the terms of the ECRML. The ECRML is the ONLY piece of legislation under which the UK Govt. provides any status to either language. The Scottish Govt. provides no additional status for Gaelic under the terms of the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act establishing the BnG. This Act does NOT confer any additional status to Gaelic that does not already apply equally to Scots under the ECRML. People should not confuse the legislation which established the BnG with any official status as is being discussed here. If you have Gaelic in the info box, the same criteria apply to Scots and it should also be included. The establishment of BnG is NOT, and I can't stress this enough, a tacit granting of any Official Status greater to that which already applies to Scots. You either have both - or neither. Simple!!! Arguments to the contrary need to be very careful as to the wording of the Act establishing the BnG. That Act is the ONLY legislative difference between the two languages and it in itself gives Gaelic no additional status over Scots. The intention is there, certainly, but in itself the Act does nothing to the alter the status of Gaelic. 80.41.244.114 09:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
siarach. You may wish to revisit your last contribution once having read the following, from:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/lang-pol.htm
" PART 1: PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS
PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – Members of the Scottish Parliament (MSPs)
The normal working language of the Parliament is English.
The Parliament legislates in English only. Therefore, all bills, delegated legislation and their accompanying documents must be in English. When an MSP or a committee wishes the SPCB to produce a translation of a bill they are introducing, and/or its accompanying documents, they must seek the prior approval of the SPCB.
With the prior agreement of the Presiding Officer, MSPs may use any language in parliamentary debates. When MSPs use a language other than English or Scots, the SPCB will arrange interpretation.
With the prior agreement of the Presiding Officer, any person officially invited to address the Parliament may do so in any language. When they use a language other than English or Scots, the SPCB will arrange interpretation.
Motions, amendments to motions and questions must be in English, but may be accompanied by a translation in another language provided by the MSP. When such a translation is provided, the SPCB will arrange for it to be published in the Business Bulletin along with the English text of the motion, amendment or question.
When the adoption of English as the normal working language of the Parliament compromises an MSP’s ability to participate in the proceedings of the Parliament, the SPCB will take steps to provide appropriate communication support.
When a committee produces a report and considers that there are good reasons for it to be published in a language other than English, the committee must seek the prior approval of the SPCB.
PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – Witnesses
Witnesses may give evidence to a committee in any language. Witnesses who wish to use a language other than English or Scots must provide as much notice as possible to allow the SPCB to arrange interpreting services, subject to availability. Witnesses should notify the clerk to the relevant committee.
When a witness uses a language other than English, Gaelic or Scots, the SPCB will offer them a translation of the Official Report of the meeting or item concerned into the language they used. When a witness uses British Sign Language (BSL) or another sign language, individual arrangements will be made.
PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – How it is reported
When Gaelic is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report incorporates the Gaelic text before the report of the English interpretation.
When Scots is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report incorporates that language in the body of the text.
When BSL, or another sign language, is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report will include only the English interpretation. A note in the Official Report will also indicate that the text is not in the original language used. Where possible, such business will also be filmed to enable a record of the original language used to be made.
When a language other than English, Scots, Gaelic or a sign language is used, the Official Report will normally publish the report of the English interpretation only, with a note to indicate that the text is not in the original language used."
For a language which, according to you, is "not an official language", Scots gets a fair few mentions in the rule book of the Scots Pairly - along with Gaelic. If English is official by its de-facto nature, then you could easily be forgiven for applying de-facto status to Scots on the basis of that outlined above. Furthermore, your assertion that "the difference in status between Scots and Gaelic - both in terms of recognition and action by the Scottish parliament" does not seem to square with the reality of the situation, in particular with regard to Official Reports, as stated above. I fail to see how a legislature of a country which can publish Official Reports in a combination of up to three specific languages can regard one of these as being 'unofficial'. If it were not an 'Official Language', why would a body like the Scottish Parliament bother to publish Official Reports which "incorporates that language in the body of the text". Or am I missing something here... Rab-k 18:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC) PS A little bed-time reading for you ;-) http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/languagePolicy/SPCB%20Language%20Policy_Scots.pdf PPS Unless someone comes up with a sound argument against inclusion, then on the basis of the above, (once the National Anthem issue is resolved and protection of the article is lifted), I intend to edit the info box 'Official Languages' section to include both Scots and BSL, alongside English and Gaelic.
Siarach - You would appear, like so many, to have bought into the 'Spin' that the last administration used when trumpeting their Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act. Likewise the BBC, whose news articles were based pricipally upon press releases from the same source. Perhaps you'll take the view of CnG over mine, who expressed doubts during the Bill's consultation period prior to its becoming an Act:
"EQUAL STATUS – SECTION 1 OF THE BILL
4. One of our main concerns is the absence in the Bill of recognition of equal status between Gaelic and English. We believe that the Bill should specifically state that Gaelic is an official language in Scotland and will, in principle, be treated equally with English in the conduct of public business, through the language plans required of public authorities. This principle recognises the importance which the Executive has placed on the Gaelic language and culture being " important to all of Scotland and is a unique part of our culture and heritage". CnaG has consistently argued for Gaelic to be accorded the same status as Welsh in terms of the Welsh Language Act 1993. This would, in the case of Gaelic, give effect to the principle that so far as is appropriate and practicable Gaelic and English will be treated on the basis of equality, in the provision of public services. If it is possible for the Welsh Act to have the wording “so far as is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable to the principle that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales the English and Welsh languages should be treated on the basis of equality” it should be possible to have a similar provision in a Gaelic Act. It is interesting to note that the Welsh Language Board recently reported that “today those who feared what a statutory Language Board might do, based on the principle of what is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practical” are in agreement that this is an acceptable method of promoting the language. This approach is generally regarded as one which provides the necessary flexibility and sensitivity in offering a realistic solution which takes account of local circumstances, the need to provide official support for the language and the likely demand for services in Gaelic. We do not advocate one solution to all public authorities' language plans throughout Scotland, since circumstances are different throughout Scotland and this should be reflected in language plans.
5. We believe that unless the Bill is strengthened along the lines suggested we will continue to have confusion and uncertainty in what is actually meant by “the functions conferred on the Board by this Act are to be exercised with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland”. We can provide the Committee with examples of where Gaelic speakers have been denied reasonable requests to obtain services from public bodies through Gaelic because of the absence of a clear position on the legal status of Gaelic. Response from such bodies have been along the lines of "the language does not have legal status" or "does not have equal validity with English unlike the situation in Wales". It is unlikely that the present wording in the Bill will compel bodies which hold these views to change their minds in the absence of a more definitive requirement as we suggest. When the Bill was published in September, the Minister Peter Peacock MSP said that “this Bill will make it easier for people to use Gaelic and ensure that public bodies – such as Councils and Health Boards – have to take the needs of Gaelic speakers into account”. This aspiration can only be met by the inclusion of a more robust statement on the status of Gaelic to take account of the needs of Gaelic speakers along the lines of the Welsh Language Act.
6. The Committee will be aware that the UK Government’s ratification of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages provides the same status for both Gaelic and Welsh (i.e. both languages come within the provisions and undertakings of Part III). We urge the Committee to languages come within the provisions and undertakings of Part III). We urge the Committee to in the context of the Charter, should also apply in relation to domestic legislation and similar provisions as already apply for Welsh should now be accorded to Gaelic in the Gaelic Bill."
The above document bears the signature of one Donald Martin, Cheif Exec. CnaG: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/education/inquiries/gaelic%20language/A_Comunn%20na%20Gaidhlig.pdf
The Executive chose to ignore the advice and concerns raised by Donald Martin and CnaG and published the Bill as an Act with the critical passages UNALTERED!
Is it too much to ask for you to agree with Donald Martin, if you can't bring yourself to agree with me? Rab-k 15:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
"Every contribution I have made to this page has included both links to and direct quotes from original documents from/and reliable sources."
Yes indeed - quotes which have been moulded to fit your personal opinion on what the ramifications of said documents etc. This is the definition of original research. I, on the other hand, have simply pointed out that the status of Gaelic (which you dispute and thus this daft argument) is clearly stated by major, reputable sources and require no great argument to carry them as they are perfectly clear and that your claims that Scots and Gaelic are held in equal status by the powers that be simply has no basis in fact.
"Your attitude towards Scots mirrors that of those who for years sought to extinguish "Erse" completely from these shores."
Absolute nonsense. I dont doubt its comforting for you to imagine this to be the case and it always amuses me when people desperately attempt to transfer their own, or someone elses, bigotry onto me. I am concerned with facts - nothing more. My involvement in this debate rooted in the same motivation which led to my involve in the almost equally ridiculous argument over the (undoubted amongst the worlds expert orientalists and related academics but disputed by a hardcore of persian nationalists on wikipedia) ethnicity of the Safavid dynasty of Iran or the "controversy" over the term 'British Isles' (by far the most common term with great historical precedence and international usage but disputed by a small core of petty Irish nationalists) or any other edit war/debate which has featured a small core of users who argue consistently against facts or the accepted orthodoxy regardless of how many facts and references are thrown at them. I am motivated by a desire to see articles based on simple, objective fact and untainted by wishful thinking, original research and POV. siarach 18:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
In the hope that I should cease feeling like the small child in the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes and equally so as to counter accusations of selectivity - links to the pertinent documents for anyone with an hour or two free to read.
Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Introduced)
Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Passed)
Submission from Comunn na Gàidhlig on the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Passed)
Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, 2005
Explanatory Notes to Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, 2005
Scottish Executive News Release
Scottish Parliament Corporate Body Language Policy
Scottish Parliament Scots Language Policy
European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages
UK Govt. Explanatory Memorandum for ECRML
Rab-k 20:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC) PS Stemonitis - Don't protect on my account - no change from me without concensus for such.
Eagle-eyed editors will have noticed that I have protected this page on account of the not-about-to-end-any-time-soon edit war. I would like to think that the issue can be resolved by discussion and, perhaps, by the study of reliable sources. I assume that the content of the article national anthem of Scotland is not disputed, so perhaps you could start by working out how best to summarise that in the rather limited space available in the infobox. -- Stemonitis 12:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The "form of government" entry in the summary box does not mention that it is a parliamentary democracy. That is out of line with other summary boxes with for states with similar government. (new zealand say) —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Can I move that the following be put back in the section on politics of Scotland as it is relevant to the current situation and is needed I feel to put the section on the main into some sort of context that isn't all one sided. "the latest opinion polls show that support for Scottish independence with the Scottish people is currently at around 31%. [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Movellon ( talk • contribs).
Agree with Globaltraveller. This is not a news commentary to be updated every time there is an article on the subject. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This reference's only comment on the official anthem is to say replacing GStQ, but this can easily be read (and I read it that way) as a colloquilaism, not as a statement of the current anthem. This has been discussed ad naseum here and the consensus is to leave it as it stands at "multiple national anthems." I personally tried to find official references (such as a Scotland national website, Scotland tourist site, etc.) that explicitly stated any national anthem, and found none. In lack of a direct, definitive reference, the consensus is the, well, consensus, and thus the page stands as it is now. VigilancePrime 06:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Mais Oui, I think it's fairly well known and accepted that fluent Scottish Gaelic use is exclusivly found in the Western Isles and not anywhere on the mainland, pls discuss in future and maintain Wiki's good faith editing policy. 194.193.170.84 13:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
It took you 1 minute and 8 minutes respectively to rv my edits, yet my offer to discuss these edits has sat here ignored for almost an hour. This would suggest to me that you are solely interested in reverting edits as opposed to discussing the improvement of the article; however I hope that I am wrong. 194.193.170.84 14:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is it so that Scotland is called a "nation" in the opening lines, and indeed thereafter, in the text of this article? Is not it so that the nation is in fact the ancient island of Great Britain? Is it not the case that Scotland for 300 years past has been rejoined to Mother England in the nation of Great Britain; that the common race of our Great British Island as sired from the fruitful loins of our sturdy ancestors, the noble Hengest and Horsa, has for these three long, prosperous and happy centuries been joined in one nation? Therefore how can it be accurate to refer to one part of our Mother's body by the term "Nation", when that term is surely reserved for it whole? The wording is sad, and wrong, but there's nothing I can do. No-one here will stand up for Lady Britannia, no-one here will hear her cry of sorrow and act manfully; no-one here will stand up for her. Am I the only person here of noble spirit, prepared to hear her cries? Will no-one else stand up for what is right? Will no-one here stand up for our Lady Britannia, our Mother? name: England's Rose 19:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
As a friendly tip, rather than simply debate whether or not off-topic conversation should be allowed, why doesn't someone involved just remove it. And if any of participant's wish to continue the conversation elsewhere, feel free to do so. By the by, English Rose, you typed: "theater" which is the American English version of "theatre". Scarian Talk 22:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
(time to shorten the indent) Agreeing with Jza84, may I point out that (first) the standard usage in the first sentence of country articles in Wikipedia is "Xland is a country..."; see for examples England, Wales, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, France, Poland, Czech Republic, Spain, and Portugal (though Switzerland anomalously uses nation): (second) Scotland is commonly described as a country- see all the examples in Talk:Country/Archive 1#Examples of official use in British English, illustrating how the word country is used (the Scottish government examples were Labour/LibDem, if that matters)- but I don't think equally authoritative sources could be found for "Scotland is a nation" : (third) as a matter of language "nation" refers to people, "country" to land- see standard dictionaries such as OED or Chambers. The archive summary at Talk:Scotland/Archive_Summary#Scotland - A Nation? suggests either nation or country would sit with the editing consensus. As a newcomer to this debate, I don't want to get into an inevitable edit war, but why shouldn't the first sentence of this article follow standard usage and use 'country'? ariwara 21:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to argue this point before, without success, but I will repeat in the hope it might be successful this time. "Scotland is a nation" is a nonsense, as Scotland is a division of land, and a nation means a people. Constituent country seems to be the standard term used in Wikipedia, and whilst it is stated in the first sentence that Scotland is a constituent country of the UK, this is after saying it is a nation of Europe. Scotland's first sentence should mirror that of England, Wales and NI stating it to be a constituent country (or "part" in NI's case) of the UK, not primarily a part of Europe. AlexOUK 11:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The term has become synonymous with 'country' where nations without sovereignty (that is, nations that are not states) have aimed to identify themselves on the same terms as sovereign states
The coordinates given for Edinburgh in the Infobox (55°57′N, 3°12′W) point to somewhere in the middle of Princes Street Gardens West. Now, while this is undoubtably a very fine spot indeed for an ice cream on a summers day, is it really the centre of the city?
I would have thought that there were several better candidates: the castle at the top of the royal mile; the palace or the parliament at the bottom; or, perhaps for the more scholarly, the Tolbooth (which is surrounded by the city chambers, St Giles, the Heart of Midlothian and the supreme courts).
Whatever, I do not think that the Bandstand is really a very satisfactory centre point. But perhaps there is nothing better we can do with the current blunt coordinates? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mais oui! ( talk • contribs) 09:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Try asking Google Maps for 55°57′N, 3°13′W - that minimal change already takes you right out of the old town centre. You would need to go to tenths of a minute to get anywhere more precise in the centre. And when it is a question of locating a place the size of Edinburgh, that would be slightly strange. -- Doric Loon 17:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
As I've come across many instances where it is insisted that it is people, not places, that form nations I am surprised this page has escaped being edited.
To pre-empt the dispute: should we alter the introduction to clarify that it is the Scottish people who are often believed to form a nation, or leave it as is and hope the implication is enough? -- Breadandcheese 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
There are probably still a few tweaks required, but hopefully nothing of major significance. I shall require the services of a competitively-priced optician prior to any further such maintenance. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 21:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Pass! Great work. It doesn't look too far from FA now. Epbr123 16:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
So is scotland a part of england or is it actually a country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.88.152 ( talk) 18:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Many years ago I had to put an American couple right when telling me that England was a beautiful country (I was in oban at the time) If we don't differentiate between Scotland and England as countries then many people will continue to believe we are part of England.-- Sandbagger 22:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why someone with a GB IP address needs to ask that question. Lurker ( said · done) 12:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone trying to stir things up?-- Sandbagger 13:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Really it is'nt but if u say it is,OK! Fila934 ( talk) 06:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In 1962 King Olav V of Norway made a formal state visit to Scotland. A full three day formal program was done as if it was in London as usual. According to this article unfortunately in Norwegian it was the first state visit to Scotland in 150 years. It also says that this state visit was a speshial request from King Olav to express gratitude to the Scottish people. Have there ever been any other state visits to Scotland since? Inge 19:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The Norwegian consulate website is a good place for details on the relationship between the two countries. Enough, in fact, that there could be the beginnings of a Wikipedia article on the subject. I didn't know there were 9 honorary norwegian consuls in Scotland, in addition to the official Edinburgh Consulate General. Lurker ( said · done) 13:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that while most European monarchs are made honorary Knights of the Garter, Olav V was an honorary Knight of the Thistle. Doops | talk 17:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello there,
A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I recently changed the map to the same style used in the articles on England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Iceland and Norway - all the countries surrounding Scotland. However, it has been reverted by someone saying I need to obtain "concensus" before doing this, even though the kind used by all the above-mentioned countries is far superior to that being used in the Scotland article. May I have concensus, please? JPBarrass 07:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
We seem to come back to the fact that there is, thankfully, no requirement for continuity/consistency between the UK Constituent Country articles, nor IMHO should there be. (From what I understand, this article gains more plaudits for layout, content, etc. than its Home Nations counterparts, therefore if one particular article should be emulated, one need look no further!). Rab-k ( talk) 20:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I find it odd that there is no mention of viking influence at all in this article (and very little in the History of Scotland article). Is that topic generally deemed to be of such a low importance among Scottish scolars? Or is this particular article the victim of some sort of bias?
On a related and slightly off topic issue I became curious as to if there is a nation building process going on in Scotland now? If so is it centering only on gælic or celtic culture and history? Inge 09:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest this article seems to be of questionable neutrality - there are several phrases '...despite widespread protest across Scotland...' in the introduction being an example and others with regards to the Act of Union with England that breach wikipedia's neutrality guidance. Despite being referenced, they give only a single viewpoint (primarily against the union and pro-independence). Such discussion with regards to union and the nationhood of Scotland belongs on its own separate page (with BOTH sides of the arguement). 81.96.243.127 17:00, 14 October 2007 (GMT)
The phrase is entirely unnecessary! 'The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent state until 1 May 1707, when the Acts of Union resulted in a union with the Kingdom of England to create the Kingdom of Great Britain.' is an entirely neutral representation of historical events. This phrase has been inserted (by the above user) along with others to editorialise and promote a view that the act of union was entirely and always negative with regards to current discussion of Scottish independence. How about reporting the 'minority' views of the Scottish nobles who signed the act? Jw2034 17:30, 14 October 2007 (GMT)
Ah yes, those nobles remembered in tradition with great fondness by Scots and English folk alike. There is little doubt that for better or worse the Act of Union was a defining moment in Scottish history and unquestionably deeply unpopular at the time. By all means argue for a better way to say this, or for the subject to be enlarged on, but to describe the presentation of known facts as POV is simply over-the-top. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, that particular error is alive and well. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)It is rather similar with the petitions against the Union of 1707. It is useless to produce the figures showing that the number of petitions which came in from the grass-roots - presbyteries and parishes - was pitifully small: we still hear that 'one of the most striking demonstrations of virtually unanimous opposition is the Addresses of rejection of the Union which poured into parliament from all over Scotland'.
Does anybody know what the image guidance is regarding Featured article status. We cannot just allow people to keep adding more images. In my opinion just one image per subsection is plenty and all other images should be added to the appropriate subarticles, not this main article.
Further, we should really be picking iconic images that undeniably represents a key notable aspect of the topic. Eg, is that dull stone representation of the arms of Edinburgh University really a good representative image of Scottish education? Nope. -- Mais oui! 09:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, in every respect.
WP:FA insists that the article has “images and other media where they are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status.” The lengthy woffle on some captions was an issue in the recent GA review.
WP:MOS says : “▪ Most captions are not complete sentences, but extended phrases, which should not finish with a period. ▪ Complete sentences in captions always end in a period. ▪ Captions should not be italicized, except for words that would otherwise be italicized. ▪ Captions should be succinct; more information on the file can be included in the image or media description page, or in the main text.”
However, User:Yannismarou/Ten rules to make an article FA says “ ▪ Find or create pictures and maps with OK copyright status. Try to have informative captions. As Peirigill once told me: "Some FA reviewers want captions to be complete sentences. Take advantage of this to relocate or reinforce some information from the article into the captions".”
I am afraid MOS and its cousins has numerous internal contradictions of this kind and so far as I can see there is no method of creating any kind of consistency except by dedicating a year of one’s life to the project or appealing to ArbCom.
WP:IUP says “In articles, if you wish to have a photo beside the text, you should generally use the "thumbnail" option available in the "Image markup" (this results in 180 pixels wide display in standard preferences default setting).” In other words, we should avoid using specified pixel settings.
WP:PIC asks us to “Avoiding image "stackups"” – co-incidentally using a saltire image as an example. We are close to falling foul of this in the military section a present.
MOS itself says “ ▪ If there are too many images in a given article, consider using a gallery.” – although I have had to remove a gallery as a condition of a GA Review. So it goes. I would definitely avoid having one here.
All in all there is nothing definitive that I can see, and indeed a degree of inconsistency.
I suggest the following:
.
I've removed the nation in Northwestern Europe term, Scotland isn't independant. The opeing is made to match England, Northern Ireland (which I've also corrected) and Wales. GoodDay 20:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I hate to be a gripe, but the infobox seems to be spurning a life of its own at the side of the article - especially the section on Unification and Annexation, which is far too detailed for what it is trying to show - and I think missing the point completely. I realise the land area of what is Scotland has changed substantially from the earliest times - bit have been added and bits have been subtracted. It is certainly fascinating and perhaps deserves its own article, but does it really need to be recounted in detail (including the annexation of Rockall in 1972) at the side of the page, in something that is meant to give but the briefest snapshot of the country in question? Globaltraveller 21:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC) 21:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll go back to my initial point. I'm not sure we require a compendium of the gains and losses of Scottish territory from the earliest times - up to as late as 1955 (Rockall) I'm not sure that is the point of what is trying to be ascertained when we're talking about unification or annexation (ie the "geographical" aspect). Allied to that, even if it were relevant - does it need to clutter - a summary infobox? Thanks Globaltraveller 12:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay... In that case should the list only include the first event, along the lines of Version 3? Rab-k 11:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Essentially yes. The formation, is not really important, the establishment of the political entity is. To take an example Switzerland was technically "unified" in 1291, but the geographical areas involved are a fraction of the current state of Switzerland. I'm no expert on the issue but the Kingdom of Scotland article suggests the Kingdom of Scotland - what we shall the call the political entity of Scotland (notice how I neatly swerve round the country/nation thing by using that term) existed from c843. The point is that the geographical area of Scotland has changed, even the name of the country might have changed and its political status might have changed, but the state (using the term loosely) existed despite these changes. That is what we should be showing. Globaltraveller 18:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Under the section national symbols it states that the flag of Scotland is the oldest national flag still in use. The Wiki page on flags ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag) states that the flag of Denmark is the oldest flag still in use. ~ColonySwiss~01/11/2007~
You will have noted the recent reverts in the geography section. It is not a big deal, but I would prefer not to have this reference here on two main grounds. Firstly we already have a sufficiency of history. To clutter up the geography section with it seems unnecessary. Secondly, it's not as if Berwick was simply a time-honoured Scottish possession that was, as the current version suggests, lost to perfidious Albion in 1482. If its article is to be believed it first came into Scottish hands in 1018 and changed hands umpteen times between then and the fifteenth century. A third and related issue I'd like to bring back to our attention concerns the difficulties of maintaining coherency in this article. It has been pretty stable of late, with much of the discussion concerning the images and infobox. This suggests to me that (by and large) its contents are considered generally satisfactory by most editors. This is an opportunity to remind ourselves that one of the main problems we face is not in finding notable new material, but in limiting the content to the most notable and relevant. Comments welcome. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 18:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, few of us are 'bovvered' one way or the other. I shall let the matter rest, but encourage all of us to consider whether our additional tweaks here and there are really necessary. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 21:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the Scots translation is wrong for two reasons: firstly, when I was a kid I had a Scottish nanny, and she used to talk to me in Scots to make me laugh, and from what I can remember, Scots is pretty much modified form of English. The meaning of the Scots motto listed is different from the meaning of the English motto. The Second reason is that, even if I am misunderstanding the Scots, it seems unlikely that the same motto would be both a statement and a question. There's a question mark at the end of the scots translation. This is illogical. Please, someone fix this. Quodfui 00:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
In keeping with other articles, the Scotland article should IMHO retain the International Phonetic Alphabet pronunciation for Alba in the opening sentence. (Particularly given that it is so frequently mis-pronounced). When included in the article I took my version from Macleod, Iseabail (1998) The Pocket Guide to Scots Words. Glasgow: Scaramouche 1998. ISBN 1-899471-01-4. This publication has the pronunciation as alapə, stating that "stressed syllables are in bold type". Given the recent removal, restoration and subsequent revision, can someone confirm if the current version by Akerbeltz is correct, in as much as it differs from my reference by inclusion of ɫ ? (I'm afraid I sold my copy of Dwelly's years ago - that might possibly be regarded as the source for confirmation should someone have a copy to hand). Regards Rab-k ( talk) 23:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
PS I have created a new page Etymology of Scotland based on two recent versions of this section and the (to my mind somewhat speculative) information at List of country name etymologies. This includes a reference to the pronunciation of Alba, and is, I believe, the appropriate location for this kind of detail. Ideally those with strong and informed views on this subject will sort out any remaining issues with the section of this article there. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 10:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Scotland has more than one Patron Saint. Queen Margaret, Saint Margaret of Scotland was declared Patroness of Scotland in 1673
For the same reasons we don't need to list every animal of significance that once lived in Scotland but is now extinct here. The Scotland article should be a summary of good work in other articles that have the space to go into all the details as the section below suggests. By all means create a page called 'Patron saints of Scotland' and then it can be linked too from here. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 11:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Yep, now at 86 kilobytes, and counting...
For the umpteenth time I now raise this issue once again here at Talk. Is no-one around here genuinely interested at getting this article through FA?
I propose that we ought to shunt off some things onto the relevant sub-articles, which, heaven knows, could nearly all do with vast improvement (notable exception being the Economy of Scotland article). Each section here at the main article should be just 2-5 paragraphs long. It is very hard to cut down History, although I wish someone would give it an honest crack, but certain other sections could be easily edited down, eg. Politics, Military and Transport. And some of the images have to go: they are just clutter, and can very easily be moved to the relevant sub-articles.
We have to ask ourselves: what is the really important information that must be conveyed to the reader? What is it that makes Scotland a distinctive and notable topic in an encyclopaedia? Is there anything unusual about the topic that differentiates it from other, at-first-sight-similar, topics? We need to present the essence of the topic, clearly and succinctly, and leave the detail to the sub-articles, which readers can very easily access at a click of the provided link. -- Mais oui! 07:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. The Geography etc. section has expanded despite my best attempts. I have pruned it back again. Looking at the recent edit history its mostly the accretion of small edits, especially images that are causing the problem, although this edit [3] by your good self, whilst relatively trivial added nearly 2MB. No idea why. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 12:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much we can do with it to be honest. In my opinion, the large majority of this article needs to stay. We have far too many articles this one has been split into in the first place. Oh, and the pictures at the side of the "Etymology" section obstruct the text quite a lot. WBOSITG ( talk) 20:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
For a few suggestions, could the Politics section be trimmed a bit. Do we need to know the leaders of all the political parties, for example? Alex Sammond is notable as First Minister not the leader of the SNP. Do we need to know that the styling of the Queen as Elizabeth II is controversial here, or in the sub article. Can we trim some of the UK constitutional information and put a main/see also to Her Majesty's Government / Politics of the United Kingdom. Whilst reference to the constitutional position of Scotland within the Union is importance, there has to be a balance between some of the fine detail here when a broad stroke and position is required. In Economy, could we take away the currency sub-section? Does the difficulty of using Scottish money in England that can be found sometimes, need to be in the main article? In Transport, can we trim back some of the railway info as it far exceeds the roads for example and is larger than the airline section. I don't think the article needs wholesale cuts, but trimmed here and there to basic but informative detail and clear direction to the sub articles. For a comparison, Australia is an FA and is 59k. Germany is an FA and is 99k. Maybe country articles can be a bit bigger? Anyway, just some thoughts. Regan123 ( talk) 19:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the military section also needs a trim. It is pretty long for such a specialist area. Lurker ( said · done) 13:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've manged to cut or move quite a lot of info. The article is now 79 kilobytes, which I think is short enough, even if we need to add quite a lot of extra info to make this into a FA. I've cut military, politics and transport. I think the history and geography sections are an appropriate size for a country article. The culture section could maybe be shortened, but I'll leave that for someone else to have a go at. I saw no need to remove any images. Lurker ( said · done) 16:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I have recently undertaken to restore the original map by David Liuzzo, [Image:Europe location SCO.png], depicting Scotland within the context of the United Kingdom, as well as within the wider European continent. This reflects Scotland's constitutional position as a Constituent country or one of the four Home Nations of the United Kingdom, and as such is also consistent with the maps featured in the England, Wales and Northern Ireland articles. It would appear that the individual who created the current revised map is attempting to airbrush reality by removing any reference to the UK. The current reality is that Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom, and as such should be reflected in this map, in accordance with the precedent established on the other Home Nations articles.
I do not intend getting into an edit war over this and will be happy to go with the consensus, if we can establish one here, however was there ever a consensus in changing the original map in the first place? 139.153.13.68 ( talk) 13:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
As the "individual who created the current revised map" I can assure you I am not "attempting to airbrush" anything, but thank you for your insight (sic) into the reasons for my having created the map. Allow me to enlighten you as to why I spent the time doing so.
The Liuzzo series of maps are, IMHO, the best 'Wiki-world' has to offer. The original version showing Scotland within the UK/EU was not included in the info-box because it was felt that a map simply showing Scotland's location was entirely appropriate, given the article concerns Scotland, not Scotland (United Kingdom) or Scotland (European Union). Given that Scotland pre-dates the UK and to this day continues to distinguish itself in many respects from the remainder of UK, I too saw no problem with this argument. The map chosen to show only Scotland on the European continent was IMHO inferior to that of the Liuzzo maps, and I decided to alter a Liuzzo map, in keeping with the terms of use, to that now in the info-box.
This was not, as you seem to imply, part of a nationalist plot to deny the existance of the UK or even EU, but to improve upon that which had existed previously, while maintaining the concensus which had been reached, namely that the article is about Scotland and therefore that should be what the map shows, with no need whatsoever to refer visually to either the UK or EU.
As I have been reminded by other editors, what other articles may or may not adopt as standard does not automatically follow for this article. Rab-k ( talk) 18:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Why is there so many completely irrelevant projects on this article? Did the projects on here ask for the article to be included? I tried to remove some of the ones which are clearly nothing to with the article but User:Mais oui! re-added them for no real reason. This kind of misuse can damage projects by having articles outside the scope added it can cause other users to begin adding similiar articles to the projects e.g. Wales being in WP:History which clearly is nonsense. Projects are there to help articles improve and only if they fall within the scope of the project. Please desist from re-adding the projects. └ and-rew┘┌ talk┐ 18:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
This article looks in pretty good shape, but one sentence in the above section lept out as not being up to the same standard as the rest of the page "Following the Scottish Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, Scotland became one of the commercial, intellectual and industrial powerhouses of Europe.". Looking at Powerhouse didn't really help and how important is "one of"? I couldn't think of a short and simple way to fix it, but hopefully everyone will see that it does need fixing. Mighty Antar ( talk) 23:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It also looks a bit peacockish. The whole article is in the middle of being improved, someone will get to this section in the near future and give it a copyedit. Lurker ( said · done) 13:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This section merits attention, not least because it jumps from the Enlightenment to post-industrial decline in just one sentence! Shortening some of the other sentences (I've edited a couple) may create some space for more about the C19? AllyD ( talk) 17:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be too many sections in the article. The TOC has a whopping 17! I think we could merge some of them, but I'm unsure how. Looking at country FAs, Chad and Cameroon have Economy and Infrastructure sections. Could the transport section go here? What about putting subdivisons into the geography section? Education seems to be included in Demography/Demographics in many country FAs. I'd also consider putting National symbols in Culture. Does anyone else have nay ideas how we can reduce the number of sections? Lurker ( said · done) 14:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a somewhat sharp message left on my talk page. I understood that the consensus was that she would be referred to as Elizabeth II but I am happy to be proved wrong...
Queen Elizabeth is NOT referred to as Queen Elizabeth II in Scotland. On ALL official documentation she is simply 'Queen Elizabeth'. On post boxes, she is Queen Elizabeth, on the royal crest and at the royal palaces, she is Queen Elizabeth...in the Scottish Parliament, she is referred to as Queen Elizabeth...hence why, on the Scotland page, I changed the text to Queen Elizabeth...you seem to wish to perpetuat the myth than Queen Elizabeth is 'Queen Elizabeth II' in Scotland, which is facutally and legally incorrect...call yourself a moderator...rubbish!
Which style do we use? Regan123 ( talk) 14:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks all. Elizabeth II it is! Regan123 ( talk) 19:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
It is a Very controversial issue to refer to Queen Elizabeth of Scotland as Queen Elizabeth the Second. Queen Elizabeth the First of England Was well known for being only queen of 'half an island' and she was also responsible for the execution of Mary, queen of Scots. It is also important to note that on post boxes (A controversy that resulted in many new post boxes being replaced) and most official documentation She is Referred to as simply Queen Elizabeth.
Of course, It is common sense that in general she is reffered to as Queen Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth, (Many other states were never under the crown of Queen Elizabeth of England) but I think the article should at least mention that the Queens title in Scotland is a controversial one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.102.151.151 ( talk) 06:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is it being insisted that Scotland is a country? Can you have a Scottish nationality? No! If you are from Scotland you are British. If you are using the term nation to identify a group of people then why isn't the Basque region or Brittany considered nations? It is a completely false statement and should be removed. Melvo ( talk) 19:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I see the request for copy editing is still live. But having read the discussion above in its entirety, I would suggest there may be very few brave enough to tackle the task. You've done a fantastic job on getting it to where it's at now but may I respectfully suggest at least one modification to shorten what is a rather lengthy entry? The early lines where it states The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent state until May 1, 1707, when the Acts of Union, despite widespread protest across Scotland,[9][10] resulted in a union with the Kingdom of England to create the Kingdom of Great Britain.[11][12] appears to suffer from having superflous info in it - namely the words - despite widespread protest across Scotland - Any political decision ordinarily brings protest of one sort or another and in that respect the words tend to convey a partisanship which shouldn't really be in an entry of this nature. The opening info should be establishing the 'facts' for the reader, and the fact is The Acts of Union resulted in the union and any reference to how it was percieved or reacted against should be in an analysis of the political situation historically and not in the main 'Scotland' entry? I'm really sorry for parachuting in on you folks like this but like you, I want to see the best, most neutral, most accessible entry on Wiki for Scotland. OzScot ( talk) 03:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, it's possible my use of the word partisanship was the wrong term, however the point I was trying to make is that you (or whoever created that line) are describing the reaction to an event and not the event in and of itself which is all that should be there at that point. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that it makes 'uncomfortable reading' - it makes good reading but is in the wrong place contextually (IMO). As for dancing in the streets there will have been those who at least metaphorically were - I'm well aware of the protests which took place as chronicled by T C Smout and others but there were those who stood to gain much from the Union - all I am saying is that in a general intro it appears out of context as it's like saying Geologically - Scotland upped stilts and set out North much to the annoyance of Pangea. It's not the content I question, it's the context. OzScot ( talk) 18:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
As you quite rightly say - it was pivotal, it is a key moment or event, but is the introduction to Scottish 'events' the place for recording the reaction to it? You see, in the same entry the North sea is mentioned - the North Sea is pivotal in shaping our economy so why is there no mention of the multitude of claims and counter claims about our territorial disputes over who owns what? The Church of Scotland is mentioned but no mention is made of the often bloody deaths which ensued in establishing it in Scotland - deaths and protestations I hasten to add which were on a far grander scale than the protests at the legitimising of the Act of the Union - why is the Act of Union being singled out as THE event which needs a counterpoint when other events or organisations in the opening entry have had far fiercer battles in the course of their history? I'm not saying for one second that the protests should not be pointed out to the reader - but the opening is not the place to do it unless you are going to treat each subject accordingly - and that would lead to an intro of huge length. Please note - I have no gripe about the content only the context - for an encyclopedic entry to afford 'one' event a counterpoint when the others are just as deserving is completely baffling me?
OzScot (
talk) 02:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Re "
Community councils are informal organisations that represent specific sub-divisions of a council area.":
With its use of "informal", this statement does not look quite right. I believe that each local authority is required by statute to have a 'community council scheme', and the Scottish Government recognises community councils as constituting 'a level of statutory representation'. It is true however that boundaries of community council areas have no statutory definition and there is no clear statutory provision for the conduct of elections - to the extent that it can be difficult for an individual elector to know to which community community council area they belong and whether, from one election to the next, a local authority is using a consistent sense of boundaries.
Laurel Bush (
talk) 11:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC).
Notice kilt isn't mentioned anywhere on the page, though tartan is (under national symbol), which is a pattern found on a kilt. There's also a piper pictured wearing one on the page. I know everything cannot be mentioned but isn't a kilt one of the most known symbols (or stereotypes) of Scotland? Something very small mentioned in the line with tartan perhaps. Is it officially classed anywhere as national dress? -- Revolt ( talk) 12:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The link within the Medieval Scotland section to the "Scottish Renaissance" takes us to a Wikipedia entry that describes the Scottish Renaissance as a 20th Century Scottish literary movement. There is no mention of any kind of Medieval Renaissance in Scotland and speaking to a more historically inclined cousin, this was indeed the only Scottish Renaissance. Of course I'm not 100% sure, so could someone with a bit more knowledge and time please look into this further. Ta. Davidonut ( talk) 15:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
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The official National Anthem for Scotland is "God Save the Queen" as all countries under the rule of Westminster have this national anthem. This not only applies to Scotland but also Bermuda and other British Overseas Territories (BOTs) as well as Wales and Nothern Ireland. The only places this does not apply to are the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man and this is because they are not under the rule of Westminster and are not considered not to be BOTs but Crown Dependents". ( Alxh 13:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC))
or Pop goes the Weasel. In the face of this it is a bit disingenuous to argue over what must be or must not be the National Anthem of any part of the UK. All we can record is what the people of the UK believe to be their National Anthem. And people in different parts of the UK have different opinions. It's up to Wikipedia to record this situation -- not to simplify the truth out of existence. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
(deindent) If you don't understand what consensus is, then don't pretend to. I made an edit which was originally reverted. I realised why it was reverted and made alterations accordingly. Then that was undone for aboslutely no reason whatsoever. Just because I might be in a minority does not mean that I don't have a right to try and reach a compromise. Biofoundationsoflanguage 12:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
“ | We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. | ” |
GStQ simply is not the, or a , national anthem of Scotland. The fact that it is the national anthem for the UK, of which Scotland is a part, does not have any bearing on this. siarach 12:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I wish you'd all make your bally minds up. Gaelic has the SAME official status in Scotland as Scots. The ONLY difference is that the BnG has been established with a view to eventually securing a status for Gaelic equal to that of English. There is no equivalent body for Scots. Contrary to links in the article, GAELIC HAS NO OFFICIAL LANGUAGE STATUS in Scotland other than, as with Scots, under the terms of the ECRML, as ratified by the UK Govt. If the BnG achieves what it was set up to then the next step along the course of achieving official status will be for Gaelic to mirror the status of Welsh in Wales, which must be treated as being equal to English by all public bodies. The claim that official status is conferred upon Gaelic but not Scots is wrong, as the only difference between the two is the presence of a Govt. body promoting the use of Gaelic versus the lack of an equivalent body for Scots. Other than this, their status is equal under the terms of the ECRML. The ECRML is the ONLY piece of legislation under which the UK Govt. provides any status to either language. The Scottish Govt. provides no additional status for Gaelic under the terms of the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act establishing the BnG. This Act does NOT confer any additional status to Gaelic that does not already apply equally to Scots under the ECRML. People should not confuse the legislation which established the BnG with any official status as is being discussed here. If you have Gaelic in the info box, the same criteria apply to Scots and it should also be included. The establishment of BnG is NOT, and I can't stress this enough, a tacit granting of any Official Status greater to that which already applies to Scots. You either have both - or neither. Simple!!! Arguments to the contrary need to be very careful as to the wording of the Act establishing the BnG. That Act is the ONLY legislative difference between the two languages and it in itself gives Gaelic no additional status over Scots. The intention is there, certainly, but in itself the Act does nothing to the alter the status of Gaelic. 80.41.244.114 09:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
siarach. You may wish to revisit your last contribution once having read the following, from:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/lang-pol.htm
" PART 1: PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS
PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – Members of the Scottish Parliament (MSPs)
The normal working language of the Parliament is English.
The Parliament legislates in English only. Therefore, all bills, delegated legislation and their accompanying documents must be in English. When an MSP or a committee wishes the SPCB to produce a translation of a bill they are introducing, and/or its accompanying documents, they must seek the prior approval of the SPCB.
With the prior agreement of the Presiding Officer, MSPs may use any language in parliamentary debates. When MSPs use a language other than English or Scots, the SPCB will arrange interpretation.
With the prior agreement of the Presiding Officer, any person officially invited to address the Parliament may do so in any language. When they use a language other than English or Scots, the SPCB will arrange interpretation.
Motions, amendments to motions and questions must be in English, but may be accompanied by a translation in another language provided by the MSP. When such a translation is provided, the SPCB will arrange for it to be published in the Business Bulletin along with the English text of the motion, amendment or question.
When the adoption of English as the normal working language of the Parliament compromises an MSP’s ability to participate in the proceedings of the Parliament, the SPCB will take steps to provide appropriate communication support.
When a committee produces a report and considers that there are good reasons for it to be published in a language other than English, the committee must seek the prior approval of the SPCB.
PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – Witnesses
Witnesses may give evidence to a committee in any language. Witnesses who wish to use a language other than English or Scots must provide as much notice as possible to allow the SPCB to arrange interpreting services, subject to availability. Witnesses should notify the clerk to the relevant committee.
When a witness uses a language other than English, Gaelic or Scots, the SPCB will offer them a translation of the Official Report of the meeting or item concerned into the language they used. When a witness uses British Sign Language (BSL) or another sign language, individual arrangements will be made.
PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS – How it is reported
When Gaelic is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report incorporates the Gaelic text before the report of the English interpretation.
When Scots is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report incorporates that language in the body of the text.
When BSL, or another sign language, is used in meetings of the Parliament and committee meetings, the Official Report will include only the English interpretation. A note in the Official Report will also indicate that the text is not in the original language used. Where possible, such business will also be filmed to enable a record of the original language used to be made.
When a language other than English, Scots, Gaelic or a sign language is used, the Official Report will normally publish the report of the English interpretation only, with a note to indicate that the text is not in the original language used."
For a language which, according to you, is "not an official language", Scots gets a fair few mentions in the rule book of the Scots Pairly - along with Gaelic. If English is official by its de-facto nature, then you could easily be forgiven for applying de-facto status to Scots on the basis of that outlined above. Furthermore, your assertion that "the difference in status between Scots and Gaelic - both in terms of recognition and action by the Scottish parliament" does not seem to square with the reality of the situation, in particular with regard to Official Reports, as stated above. I fail to see how a legislature of a country which can publish Official Reports in a combination of up to three specific languages can regard one of these as being 'unofficial'. If it were not an 'Official Language', why would a body like the Scottish Parliament bother to publish Official Reports which "incorporates that language in the body of the text". Or am I missing something here... Rab-k 18:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC) PS A little bed-time reading for you ;-) http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/languagePolicy/SPCB%20Language%20Policy_Scots.pdf PPS Unless someone comes up with a sound argument against inclusion, then on the basis of the above, (once the National Anthem issue is resolved and protection of the article is lifted), I intend to edit the info box 'Official Languages' section to include both Scots and BSL, alongside English and Gaelic.
Siarach - You would appear, like so many, to have bought into the 'Spin' that the last administration used when trumpeting their Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act. Likewise the BBC, whose news articles were based pricipally upon press releases from the same source. Perhaps you'll take the view of CnG over mine, who expressed doubts during the Bill's consultation period prior to its becoming an Act:
"EQUAL STATUS – SECTION 1 OF THE BILL
4. One of our main concerns is the absence in the Bill of recognition of equal status between Gaelic and English. We believe that the Bill should specifically state that Gaelic is an official language in Scotland and will, in principle, be treated equally with English in the conduct of public business, through the language plans required of public authorities. This principle recognises the importance which the Executive has placed on the Gaelic language and culture being " important to all of Scotland and is a unique part of our culture and heritage". CnaG has consistently argued for Gaelic to be accorded the same status as Welsh in terms of the Welsh Language Act 1993. This would, in the case of Gaelic, give effect to the principle that so far as is appropriate and practicable Gaelic and English will be treated on the basis of equality, in the provision of public services. If it is possible for the Welsh Act to have the wording “so far as is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practicable to the principle that in the conduct of public business and the administration of justice in Wales the English and Welsh languages should be treated on the basis of equality” it should be possible to have a similar provision in a Gaelic Act. It is interesting to note that the Welsh Language Board recently reported that “today those who feared what a statutory Language Board might do, based on the principle of what is both appropriate in the circumstances and reasonably practical” are in agreement that this is an acceptable method of promoting the language. This approach is generally regarded as one which provides the necessary flexibility and sensitivity in offering a realistic solution which takes account of local circumstances, the need to provide official support for the language and the likely demand for services in Gaelic. We do not advocate one solution to all public authorities' language plans throughout Scotland, since circumstances are different throughout Scotland and this should be reflected in language plans.
5. We believe that unless the Bill is strengthened along the lines suggested we will continue to have confusion and uncertainty in what is actually meant by “the functions conferred on the Board by this Act are to be exercised with a view to securing the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland”. We can provide the Committee with examples of where Gaelic speakers have been denied reasonable requests to obtain services from public bodies through Gaelic because of the absence of a clear position on the legal status of Gaelic. Response from such bodies have been along the lines of "the language does not have legal status" or "does not have equal validity with English unlike the situation in Wales". It is unlikely that the present wording in the Bill will compel bodies which hold these views to change their minds in the absence of a more definitive requirement as we suggest. When the Bill was published in September, the Minister Peter Peacock MSP said that “this Bill will make it easier for people to use Gaelic and ensure that public bodies – such as Councils and Health Boards – have to take the needs of Gaelic speakers into account”. This aspiration can only be met by the inclusion of a more robust statement on the status of Gaelic to take account of the needs of Gaelic speakers along the lines of the Welsh Language Act.
6. The Committee will be aware that the UK Government’s ratification of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages provides the same status for both Gaelic and Welsh (i.e. both languages come within the provisions and undertakings of Part III). We urge the Committee to languages come within the provisions and undertakings of Part III). We urge the Committee to in the context of the Charter, should also apply in relation to domestic legislation and similar provisions as already apply for Welsh should now be accorded to Gaelic in the Gaelic Bill."
The above document bears the signature of one Donald Martin, Cheif Exec. CnaG: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/committees/education/inquiries/gaelic%20language/A_Comunn%20na%20Gaidhlig.pdf
The Executive chose to ignore the advice and concerns raised by Donald Martin and CnaG and published the Bill as an Act with the critical passages UNALTERED!
Is it too much to ask for you to agree with Donald Martin, if you can't bring yourself to agree with me? Rab-k 15:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
"Every contribution I have made to this page has included both links to and direct quotes from original documents from/and reliable sources."
Yes indeed - quotes which have been moulded to fit your personal opinion on what the ramifications of said documents etc. This is the definition of original research. I, on the other hand, have simply pointed out that the status of Gaelic (which you dispute and thus this daft argument) is clearly stated by major, reputable sources and require no great argument to carry them as they are perfectly clear and that your claims that Scots and Gaelic are held in equal status by the powers that be simply has no basis in fact.
"Your attitude towards Scots mirrors that of those who for years sought to extinguish "Erse" completely from these shores."
Absolute nonsense. I dont doubt its comforting for you to imagine this to be the case and it always amuses me when people desperately attempt to transfer their own, or someone elses, bigotry onto me. I am concerned with facts - nothing more. My involvement in this debate rooted in the same motivation which led to my involve in the almost equally ridiculous argument over the (undoubted amongst the worlds expert orientalists and related academics but disputed by a hardcore of persian nationalists on wikipedia) ethnicity of the Safavid dynasty of Iran or the "controversy" over the term 'British Isles' (by far the most common term with great historical precedence and international usage but disputed by a small core of petty Irish nationalists) or any other edit war/debate which has featured a small core of users who argue consistently against facts or the accepted orthodoxy regardless of how many facts and references are thrown at them. I am motivated by a desire to see articles based on simple, objective fact and untainted by wishful thinking, original research and POV. siarach 18:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
In the hope that I should cease feeling like the small child in the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes and equally so as to counter accusations of selectivity - links to the pertinent documents for anyone with an hour or two free to read.
Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Introduced)
Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Passed)
Submission from Comunn na Gàidhlig on the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill (As Passed)
Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, 2005
Explanatory Notes to Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, 2005
Scottish Executive News Release
Scottish Parliament Corporate Body Language Policy
Scottish Parliament Scots Language Policy
European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages
UK Govt. Explanatory Memorandum for ECRML
Rab-k 20:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC) PS Stemonitis - Don't protect on my account - no change from me without concensus for such.
Eagle-eyed editors will have noticed that I have protected this page on account of the not-about-to-end-any-time-soon edit war. I would like to think that the issue can be resolved by discussion and, perhaps, by the study of reliable sources. I assume that the content of the article national anthem of Scotland is not disputed, so perhaps you could start by working out how best to summarise that in the rather limited space available in the infobox. -- Stemonitis 12:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The "form of government" entry in the summary box does not mention that it is a parliamentary democracy. That is out of line with other summary boxes with for states with similar government. (new zealand say) —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
Can I move that the following be put back in the section on politics of Scotland as it is relevant to the current situation and is needed I feel to put the section on the main into some sort of context that isn't all one sided. "the latest opinion polls show that support for Scottish independence with the Scottish people is currently at around 31%. [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Movellon ( talk • contribs).
Agree with Globaltraveller. This is not a news commentary to be updated every time there is an article on the subject. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This reference's only comment on the official anthem is to say replacing GStQ, but this can easily be read (and I read it that way) as a colloquilaism, not as a statement of the current anthem. This has been discussed ad naseum here and the consensus is to leave it as it stands at "multiple national anthems." I personally tried to find official references (such as a Scotland national website, Scotland tourist site, etc.) that explicitly stated any national anthem, and found none. In lack of a direct, definitive reference, the consensus is the, well, consensus, and thus the page stands as it is now. VigilancePrime 06:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Mais Oui, I think it's fairly well known and accepted that fluent Scottish Gaelic use is exclusivly found in the Western Isles and not anywhere on the mainland, pls discuss in future and maintain Wiki's good faith editing policy. 194.193.170.84 13:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
It took you 1 minute and 8 minutes respectively to rv my edits, yet my offer to discuss these edits has sat here ignored for almost an hour. This would suggest to me that you are solely interested in reverting edits as opposed to discussing the improvement of the article; however I hope that I am wrong. 194.193.170.84 14:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is it so that Scotland is called a "nation" in the opening lines, and indeed thereafter, in the text of this article? Is not it so that the nation is in fact the ancient island of Great Britain? Is it not the case that Scotland for 300 years past has been rejoined to Mother England in the nation of Great Britain; that the common race of our Great British Island as sired from the fruitful loins of our sturdy ancestors, the noble Hengest and Horsa, has for these three long, prosperous and happy centuries been joined in one nation? Therefore how can it be accurate to refer to one part of our Mother's body by the term "Nation", when that term is surely reserved for it whole? The wording is sad, and wrong, but there's nothing I can do. No-one here will stand up for Lady Britannia, no-one here will hear her cry of sorrow and act manfully; no-one here will stand up for her. Am I the only person here of noble spirit, prepared to hear her cries? Will no-one else stand up for what is right? Will no-one here stand up for our Lady Britannia, our Mother? name: England's Rose 19:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
As a friendly tip, rather than simply debate whether or not off-topic conversation should be allowed, why doesn't someone involved just remove it. And if any of participant's wish to continue the conversation elsewhere, feel free to do so. By the by, English Rose, you typed: "theater" which is the American English version of "theatre". Scarian Talk 22:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
(time to shorten the indent) Agreeing with Jza84, may I point out that (first) the standard usage in the first sentence of country articles in Wikipedia is "Xland is a country..."; see for examples England, Wales, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, France, Poland, Czech Republic, Spain, and Portugal (though Switzerland anomalously uses nation): (second) Scotland is commonly described as a country- see all the examples in Talk:Country/Archive 1#Examples of official use in British English, illustrating how the word country is used (the Scottish government examples were Labour/LibDem, if that matters)- but I don't think equally authoritative sources could be found for "Scotland is a nation" : (third) as a matter of language "nation" refers to people, "country" to land- see standard dictionaries such as OED or Chambers. The archive summary at Talk:Scotland/Archive_Summary#Scotland - A Nation? suggests either nation or country would sit with the editing consensus. As a newcomer to this debate, I don't want to get into an inevitable edit war, but why shouldn't the first sentence of this article follow standard usage and use 'country'? ariwara 21:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to argue this point before, without success, but I will repeat in the hope it might be successful this time. "Scotland is a nation" is a nonsense, as Scotland is a division of land, and a nation means a people. Constituent country seems to be the standard term used in Wikipedia, and whilst it is stated in the first sentence that Scotland is a constituent country of the UK, this is after saying it is a nation of Europe. Scotland's first sentence should mirror that of England, Wales and NI stating it to be a constituent country (or "part" in NI's case) of the UK, not primarily a part of Europe. AlexOUK 11:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The term has become synonymous with 'country' where nations without sovereignty (that is, nations that are not states) have aimed to identify themselves on the same terms as sovereign states
The coordinates given for Edinburgh in the Infobox (55°57′N, 3°12′W) point to somewhere in the middle of Princes Street Gardens West. Now, while this is undoubtably a very fine spot indeed for an ice cream on a summers day, is it really the centre of the city?
I would have thought that there were several better candidates: the castle at the top of the royal mile; the palace or the parliament at the bottom; or, perhaps for the more scholarly, the Tolbooth (which is surrounded by the city chambers, St Giles, the Heart of Midlothian and the supreme courts).
Whatever, I do not think that the Bandstand is really a very satisfactory centre point. But perhaps there is nothing better we can do with the current blunt coordinates? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mais oui! ( talk • contribs) 09:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Try asking Google Maps for 55°57′N, 3°13′W - that minimal change already takes you right out of the old town centre. You would need to go to tenths of a minute to get anywhere more precise in the centre. And when it is a question of locating a place the size of Edinburgh, that would be slightly strange. -- Doric Loon 17:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
As I've come across many instances where it is insisted that it is people, not places, that form nations I am surprised this page has escaped being edited.
To pre-empt the dispute: should we alter the introduction to clarify that it is the Scottish people who are often believed to form a nation, or leave it as is and hope the implication is enough? -- Breadandcheese 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
There are probably still a few tweaks required, but hopefully nothing of major significance. I shall require the services of a competitively-priced optician prior to any further such maintenance. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 21:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Pass! Great work. It doesn't look too far from FA now. Epbr123 16:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
So is scotland a part of england or is it actually a country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.88.152 ( talk) 18:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Many years ago I had to put an American couple right when telling me that England was a beautiful country (I was in oban at the time) If we don't differentiate between Scotland and England as countries then many people will continue to believe we are part of England.-- Sandbagger 22:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why someone with a GB IP address needs to ask that question. Lurker ( said · done) 12:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Someone trying to stir things up?-- Sandbagger 13:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Really it is'nt but if u say it is,OK! Fila934 ( talk) 06:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
In 1962 King Olav V of Norway made a formal state visit to Scotland. A full three day formal program was done as if it was in London as usual. According to this article unfortunately in Norwegian it was the first state visit to Scotland in 150 years. It also says that this state visit was a speshial request from King Olav to express gratitude to the Scottish people. Have there ever been any other state visits to Scotland since? Inge 19:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The Norwegian consulate website is a good place for details on the relationship between the two countries. Enough, in fact, that there could be the beginnings of a Wikipedia article on the subject. I didn't know there were 9 honorary norwegian consuls in Scotland, in addition to the official Edinburgh Consulate General. Lurker ( said · done) 13:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that while most European monarchs are made honorary Knights of the Garter, Olav V was an honorary Knight of the Thistle. Doops | talk 17:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello there,
A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I recently changed the map to the same style used in the articles on England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Iceland and Norway - all the countries surrounding Scotland. However, it has been reverted by someone saying I need to obtain "concensus" before doing this, even though the kind used by all the above-mentioned countries is far superior to that being used in the Scotland article. May I have concensus, please? JPBarrass 07:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
We seem to come back to the fact that there is, thankfully, no requirement for continuity/consistency between the UK Constituent Country articles, nor IMHO should there be. (From what I understand, this article gains more plaudits for layout, content, etc. than its Home Nations counterparts, therefore if one particular article should be emulated, one need look no further!). Rab-k ( talk) 20:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I find it odd that there is no mention of viking influence at all in this article (and very little in the History of Scotland article). Is that topic generally deemed to be of such a low importance among Scottish scolars? Or is this particular article the victim of some sort of bias?
On a related and slightly off topic issue I became curious as to if there is a nation building process going on in Scotland now? If so is it centering only on gælic or celtic culture and history? Inge 09:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest this article seems to be of questionable neutrality - there are several phrases '...despite widespread protest across Scotland...' in the introduction being an example and others with regards to the Act of Union with England that breach wikipedia's neutrality guidance. Despite being referenced, they give only a single viewpoint (primarily against the union and pro-independence). Such discussion with regards to union and the nationhood of Scotland belongs on its own separate page (with BOTH sides of the arguement). 81.96.243.127 17:00, 14 October 2007 (GMT)
The phrase is entirely unnecessary! 'The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent state until 1 May 1707, when the Acts of Union resulted in a union with the Kingdom of England to create the Kingdom of Great Britain.' is an entirely neutral representation of historical events. This phrase has been inserted (by the above user) along with others to editorialise and promote a view that the act of union was entirely and always negative with regards to current discussion of Scottish independence. How about reporting the 'minority' views of the Scottish nobles who signed the act? Jw2034 17:30, 14 October 2007 (GMT)
Ah yes, those nobles remembered in tradition with great fondness by Scots and English folk alike. There is little doubt that for better or worse the Act of Union was a defining moment in Scottish history and unquestionably deeply unpopular at the time. By all means argue for a better way to say this, or for the subject to be enlarged on, but to describe the presentation of known facts as POV is simply over-the-top. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, that particular error is alive and well. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)It is rather similar with the petitions against the Union of 1707. It is useless to produce the figures showing that the number of petitions which came in from the grass-roots - presbyteries and parishes - was pitifully small: we still hear that 'one of the most striking demonstrations of virtually unanimous opposition is the Addresses of rejection of the Union which poured into parliament from all over Scotland'.
Does anybody know what the image guidance is regarding Featured article status. We cannot just allow people to keep adding more images. In my opinion just one image per subsection is plenty and all other images should be added to the appropriate subarticles, not this main article.
Further, we should really be picking iconic images that undeniably represents a key notable aspect of the topic. Eg, is that dull stone representation of the arms of Edinburgh University really a good representative image of Scottish education? Nope. -- Mais oui! 09:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, in every respect.
WP:FA insists that the article has “images and other media where they are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status.” The lengthy woffle on some captions was an issue in the recent GA review.
WP:MOS says : “▪ Most captions are not complete sentences, but extended phrases, which should not finish with a period. ▪ Complete sentences in captions always end in a period. ▪ Captions should not be italicized, except for words that would otherwise be italicized. ▪ Captions should be succinct; more information on the file can be included in the image or media description page, or in the main text.”
However, User:Yannismarou/Ten rules to make an article FA says “ ▪ Find or create pictures and maps with OK copyright status. Try to have informative captions. As Peirigill once told me: "Some FA reviewers want captions to be complete sentences. Take advantage of this to relocate or reinforce some information from the article into the captions".”
I am afraid MOS and its cousins has numerous internal contradictions of this kind and so far as I can see there is no method of creating any kind of consistency except by dedicating a year of one’s life to the project or appealing to ArbCom.
WP:IUP says “In articles, if you wish to have a photo beside the text, you should generally use the "thumbnail" option available in the "Image markup" (this results in 180 pixels wide display in standard preferences default setting).” In other words, we should avoid using specified pixel settings.
WP:PIC asks us to “Avoiding image "stackups"” – co-incidentally using a saltire image as an example. We are close to falling foul of this in the military section a present.
MOS itself says “ ▪ If there are too many images in a given article, consider using a gallery.” – although I have had to remove a gallery as a condition of a GA Review. So it goes. I would definitely avoid having one here.
All in all there is nothing definitive that I can see, and indeed a degree of inconsistency.
I suggest the following:
.
I've removed the nation in Northwestern Europe term, Scotland isn't independant. The opeing is made to match England, Northern Ireland (which I've also corrected) and Wales. GoodDay 20:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I hate to be a gripe, but the infobox seems to be spurning a life of its own at the side of the article - especially the section on Unification and Annexation, which is far too detailed for what it is trying to show - and I think missing the point completely. I realise the land area of what is Scotland has changed substantially from the earliest times - bit have been added and bits have been subtracted. It is certainly fascinating and perhaps deserves its own article, but does it really need to be recounted in detail (including the annexation of Rockall in 1972) at the side of the page, in something that is meant to give but the briefest snapshot of the country in question? Globaltraveller 21:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC) 21:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll go back to my initial point. I'm not sure we require a compendium of the gains and losses of Scottish territory from the earliest times - up to as late as 1955 (Rockall) I'm not sure that is the point of what is trying to be ascertained when we're talking about unification or annexation (ie the "geographical" aspect). Allied to that, even if it were relevant - does it need to clutter - a summary infobox? Thanks Globaltraveller 12:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay... In that case should the list only include the first event, along the lines of Version 3? Rab-k 11:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Essentially yes. The formation, is not really important, the establishment of the political entity is. To take an example Switzerland was technically "unified" in 1291, but the geographical areas involved are a fraction of the current state of Switzerland. I'm no expert on the issue but the Kingdom of Scotland article suggests the Kingdom of Scotland - what we shall the call the political entity of Scotland (notice how I neatly swerve round the country/nation thing by using that term) existed from c843. The point is that the geographical area of Scotland has changed, even the name of the country might have changed and its political status might have changed, but the state (using the term loosely) existed despite these changes. That is what we should be showing. Globaltraveller 18:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Under the section national symbols it states that the flag of Scotland is the oldest national flag still in use. The Wiki page on flags ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag) states that the flag of Denmark is the oldest flag still in use. ~ColonySwiss~01/11/2007~
You will have noted the recent reverts in the geography section. It is not a big deal, but I would prefer not to have this reference here on two main grounds. Firstly we already have a sufficiency of history. To clutter up the geography section with it seems unnecessary. Secondly, it's not as if Berwick was simply a time-honoured Scottish possession that was, as the current version suggests, lost to perfidious Albion in 1482. If its article is to be believed it first came into Scottish hands in 1018 and changed hands umpteen times between then and the fifteenth century. A third and related issue I'd like to bring back to our attention concerns the difficulties of maintaining coherency in this article. It has been pretty stable of late, with much of the discussion concerning the images and infobox. This suggests to me that (by and large) its contents are considered generally satisfactory by most editors. This is an opportunity to remind ourselves that one of the main problems we face is not in finding notable new material, but in limiting the content to the most notable and relevant. Comments welcome. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 18:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, few of us are 'bovvered' one way or the other. I shall let the matter rest, but encourage all of us to consider whether our additional tweaks here and there are really necessary. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 21:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the Scots translation is wrong for two reasons: firstly, when I was a kid I had a Scottish nanny, and she used to talk to me in Scots to make me laugh, and from what I can remember, Scots is pretty much modified form of English. The meaning of the Scots motto listed is different from the meaning of the English motto. The Second reason is that, even if I am misunderstanding the Scots, it seems unlikely that the same motto would be both a statement and a question. There's a question mark at the end of the scots translation. This is illogical. Please, someone fix this. Quodfui 00:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
In keeping with other articles, the Scotland article should IMHO retain the International Phonetic Alphabet pronunciation for Alba in the opening sentence. (Particularly given that it is so frequently mis-pronounced). When included in the article I took my version from Macleod, Iseabail (1998) The Pocket Guide to Scots Words. Glasgow: Scaramouche 1998. ISBN 1-899471-01-4. This publication has the pronunciation as alapə, stating that "stressed syllables are in bold type". Given the recent removal, restoration and subsequent revision, can someone confirm if the current version by Akerbeltz is correct, in as much as it differs from my reference by inclusion of ɫ ? (I'm afraid I sold my copy of Dwelly's years ago - that might possibly be regarded as the source for confirmation should someone have a copy to hand). Regards Rab-k ( talk) 23:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
PS I have created a new page Etymology of Scotland based on two recent versions of this section and the (to my mind somewhat speculative) information at List of country name etymologies. This includes a reference to the pronunciation of Alba, and is, I believe, the appropriate location for this kind of detail. Ideally those with strong and informed views on this subject will sort out any remaining issues with the section of this article there. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 10:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Scotland has more than one Patron Saint. Queen Margaret, Saint Margaret of Scotland was declared Patroness of Scotland in 1673
For the same reasons we don't need to list every animal of significance that once lived in Scotland but is now extinct here. The Scotland article should be a summary of good work in other articles that have the space to go into all the details as the section below suggests. By all means create a page called 'Patron saints of Scotland' and then it can be linked too from here. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 11:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Yep, now at 86 kilobytes, and counting...
For the umpteenth time I now raise this issue once again here at Talk. Is no-one around here genuinely interested at getting this article through FA?
I propose that we ought to shunt off some things onto the relevant sub-articles, which, heaven knows, could nearly all do with vast improvement (notable exception being the Economy of Scotland article). Each section here at the main article should be just 2-5 paragraphs long. It is very hard to cut down History, although I wish someone would give it an honest crack, but certain other sections could be easily edited down, eg. Politics, Military and Transport. And some of the images have to go: they are just clutter, and can very easily be moved to the relevant sub-articles.
We have to ask ourselves: what is the really important information that must be conveyed to the reader? What is it that makes Scotland a distinctive and notable topic in an encyclopaedia? Is there anything unusual about the topic that differentiates it from other, at-first-sight-similar, topics? We need to present the essence of the topic, clearly and succinctly, and leave the detail to the sub-articles, which readers can very easily access at a click of the provided link. -- Mais oui! 07:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. The Geography etc. section has expanded despite my best attempts. I have pruned it back again. Looking at the recent edit history its mostly the accretion of small edits, especially images that are causing the problem, although this edit [3] by your good self, whilst relatively trivial added nearly 2MB. No idea why. Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 12:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much we can do with it to be honest. In my opinion, the large majority of this article needs to stay. We have far too many articles this one has been split into in the first place. Oh, and the pictures at the side of the "Etymology" section obstruct the text quite a lot. WBOSITG ( talk) 20:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
For a few suggestions, could the Politics section be trimmed a bit. Do we need to know the leaders of all the political parties, for example? Alex Sammond is notable as First Minister not the leader of the SNP. Do we need to know that the styling of the Queen as Elizabeth II is controversial here, or in the sub article. Can we trim some of the UK constitutional information and put a main/see also to Her Majesty's Government / Politics of the United Kingdom. Whilst reference to the constitutional position of Scotland within the Union is importance, there has to be a balance between some of the fine detail here when a broad stroke and position is required. In Economy, could we take away the currency sub-section? Does the difficulty of using Scottish money in England that can be found sometimes, need to be in the main article? In Transport, can we trim back some of the railway info as it far exceeds the roads for example and is larger than the airline section. I don't think the article needs wholesale cuts, but trimmed here and there to basic but informative detail and clear direction to the sub articles. For a comparison, Australia is an FA and is 59k. Germany is an FA and is 99k. Maybe country articles can be a bit bigger? Anyway, just some thoughts. Regan123 ( talk) 19:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the military section also needs a trim. It is pretty long for such a specialist area. Lurker ( said · done) 13:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've manged to cut or move quite a lot of info. The article is now 79 kilobytes, which I think is short enough, even if we need to add quite a lot of extra info to make this into a FA. I've cut military, politics and transport. I think the history and geography sections are an appropriate size for a country article. The culture section could maybe be shortened, but I'll leave that for someone else to have a go at. I saw no need to remove any images. Lurker ( said · done) 16:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I have recently undertaken to restore the original map by David Liuzzo, [Image:Europe location SCO.png], depicting Scotland within the context of the United Kingdom, as well as within the wider European continent. This reflects Scotland's constitutional position as a Constituent country or one of the four Home Nations of the United Kingdom, and as such is also consistent with the maps featured in the England, Wales and Northern Ireland articles. It would appear that the individual who created the current revised map is attempting to airbrush reality by removing any reference to the UK. The current reality is that Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom, and as such should be reflected in this map, in accordance with the precedent established on the other Home Nations articles.
I do not intend getting into an edit war over this and will be happy to go with the consensus, if we can establish one here, however was there ever a consensus in changing the original map in the first place? 139.153.13.68 ( talk) 13:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
As the "individual who created the current revised map" I can assure you I am not "attempting to airbrush" anything, but thank you for your insight (sic) into the reasons for my having created the map. Allow me to enlighten you as to why I spent the time doing so.
The Liuzzo series of maps are, IMHO, the best 'Wiki-world' has to offer. The original version showing Scotland within the UK/EU was not included in the info-box because it was felt that a map simply showing Scotland's location was entirely appropriate, given the article concerns Scotland, not Scotland (United Kingdom) or Scotland (European Union). Given that Scotland pre-dates the UK and to this day continues to distinguish itself in many respects from the remainder of UK, I too saw no problem with this argument. The map chosen to show only Scotland on the European continent was IMHO inferior to that of the Liuzzo maps, and I decided to alter a Liuzzo map, in keeping with the terms of use, to that now in the info-box.
This was not, as you seem to imply, part of a nationalist plot to deny the existance of the UK or even EU, but to improve upon that which had existed previously, while maintaining the concensus which had been reached, namely that the article is about Scotland and therefore that should be what the map shows, with no need whatsoever to refer visually to either the UK or EU.
As I have been reminded by other editors, what other articles may or may not adopt as standard does not automatically follow for this article. Rab-k ( talk) 18:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Why is there so many completely irrelevant projects on this article? Did the projects on here ask for the article to be included? I tried to remove some of the ones which are clearly nothing to with the article but User:Mais oui! re-added them for no real reason. This kind of misuse can damage projects by having articles outside the scope added it can cause other users to begin adding similiar articles to the projects e.g. Wales being in WP:History which clearly is nonsense. Projects are there to help articles improve and only if they fall within the scope of the project. Please desist from re-adding the projects. └ and-rew┘┌ talk┐ 18:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
This article looks in pretty good shape, but one sentence in the above section lept out as not being up to the same standard as the rest of the page "Following the Scottish Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, Scotland became one of the commercial, intellectual and industrial powerhouses of Europe.". Looking at Powerhouse didn't really help and how important is "one of"? I couldn't think of a short and simple way to fix it, but hopefully everyone will see that it does need fixing. Mighty Antar ( talk) 23:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It also looks a bit peacockish. The whole article is in the middle of being improved, someone will get to this section in the near future and give it a copyedit. Lurker ( said · done) 13:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This section merits attention, not least because it jumps from the Enlightenment to post-industrial decline in just one sentence! Shortening some of the other sentences (I've edited a couple) may create some space for more about the C19? AllyD ( talk) 17:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be too many sections in the article. The TOC has a whopping 17! I think we could merge some of them, but I'm unsure how. Looking at country FAs, Chad and Cameroon have Economy and Infrastructure sections. Could the transport section go here? What about putting subdivisons into the geography section? Education seems to be included in Demography/Demographics in many country FAs. I'd also consider putting National symbols in Culture. Does anyone else have nay ideas how we can reduce the number of sections? Lurker ( said · done) 14:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a somewhat sharp message left on my talk page. I understood that the consensus was that she would be referred to as Elizabeth II but I am happy to be proved wrong...
Queen Elizabeth is NOT referred to as Queen Elizabeth II in Scotland. On ALL official documentation she is simply 'Queen Elizabeth'. On post boxes, she is Queen Elizabeth, on the royal crest and at the royal palaces, she is Queen Elizabeth...in the Scottish Parliament, she is referred to as Queen Elizabeth...hence why, on the Scotland page, I changed the text to Queen Elizabeth...you seem to wish to perpetuat the myth than Queen Elizabeth is 'Queen Elizabeth II' in Scotland, which is facutally and legally incorrect...call yourself a moderator...rubbish!
Which style do we use? Regan123 ( talk) 14:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks all. Elizabeth II it is! Regan123 ( talk) 19:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
It is a Very controversial issue to refer to Queen Elizabeth of Scotland as Queen Elizabeth the Second. Queen Elizabeth the First of England Was well known for being only queen of 'half an island' and she was also responsible for the execution of Mary, queen of Scots. It is also important to note that on post boxes (A controversy that resulted in many new post boxes being replaced) and most official documentation She is Referred to as simply Queen Elizabeth.
Of course, It is common sense that in general she is reffered to as Queen Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth, (Many other states were never under the crown of Queen Elizabeth of England) but I think the article should at least mention that the Queens title in Scotland is a controversial one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.102.151.151 ( talk) 06:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is it being insisted that Scotland is a country? Can you have a Scottish nationality? No! If you are from Scotland you are British. If you are using the term nation to identify a group of people then why isn't the Basque region or Brittany considered nations? It is a completely false statement and should be removed. Melvo ( talk) 19:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I see the request for copy editing is still live. But having read the discussion above in its entirety, I would suggest there may be very few brave enough to tackle the task. You've done a fantastic job on getting it to where it's at now but may I respectfully suggest at least one modification to shorten what is a rather lengthy entry? The early lines where it states The Kingdom of Scotland was an independent state until May 1, 1707, when the Acts of Union, despite widespread protest across Scotland,[9][10] resulted in a union with the Kingdom of England to create the Kingdom of Great Britain.[11][12] appears to suffer from having superflous info in it - namely the words - despite widespread protest across Scotland - Any political decision ordinarily brings protest of one sort or another and in that respect the words tend to convey a partisanship which shouldn't really be in an entry of this nature. The opening info should be establishing the 'facts' for the reader, and the fact is The Acts of Union resulted in the union and any reference to how it was percieved or reacted against should be in an analysis of the political situation historically and not in the main 'Scotland' entry? I'm really sorry for parachuting in on you folks like this but like you, I want to see the best, most neutral, most accessible entry on Wiki for Scotland. OzScot ( talk) 03:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, it's possible my use of the word partisanship was the wrong term, however the point I was trying to make is that you (or whoever created that line) are describing the reaction to an event and not the event in and of itself which is all that should be there at that point. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that it makes 'uncomfortable reading' - it makes good reading but is in the wrong place contextually (IMO). As for dancing in the streets there will have been those who at least metaphorically were - I'm well aware of the protests which took place as chronicled by T C Smout and others but there were those who stood to gain much from the Union - all I am saying is that in a general intro it appears out of context as it's like saying Geologically - Scotland upped stilts and set out North much to the annoyance of Pangea. It's not the content I question, it's the context. OzScot ( talk) 18:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
As you quite rightly say - it was pivotal, it is a key moment or event, but is the introduction to Scottish 'events' the place for recording the reaction to it? You see, in the same entry the North sea is mentioned - the North Sea is pivotal in shaping our economy so why is there no mention of the multitude of claims and counter claims about our territorial disputes over who owns what? The Church of Scotland is mentioned but no mention is made of the often bloody deaths which ensued in establishing it in Scotland - deaths and protestations I hasten to add which were on a far grander scale than the protests at the legitimising of the Act of the Union - why is the Act of Union being singled out as THE event which needs a counterpoint when other events or organisations in the opening entry have had far fiercer battles in the course of their history? I'm not saying for one second that the protests should not be pointed out to the reader - but the opening is not the place to do it unless you are going to treat each subject accordingly - and that would lead to an intro of huge length. Please note - I have no gripe about the content only the context - for an encyclopedic entry to afford 'one' event a counterpoint when the others are just as deserving is completely baffling me?
OzScot (
talk) 02:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Re "
Community councils are informal organisations that represent specific sub-divisions of a council area.":
With its use of "informal", this statement does not look quite right. I believe that each local authority is required by statute to have a 'community council scheme', and the Scottish Government recognises community councils as constituting 'a level of statutory representation'. It is true however that boundaries of community council areas have no statutory definition and there is no clear statutory provision for the conduct of elections - to the extent that it can be difficult for an individual elector to know to which community community council area they belong and whether, from one election to the next, a local authority is using a consistent sense of boundaries.
Laurel Bush (
talk) 11:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC).
Notice kilt isn't mentioned anywhere on the page, though tartan is (under national symbol), which is a pattern found on a kilt. There's also a piper pictured wearing one on the page. I know everything cannot be mentioned but isn't a kilt one of the most known symbols (or stereotypes) of Scotland? Something very small mentioned in the line with tartan perhaps. Is it officially classed anywhere as national dress? -- Revolt ( talk) 12:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The link within the Medieval Scotland section to the "Scottish Renaissance" takes us to a Wikipedia entry that describes the Scottish Renaissance as a 20th Century Scottish literary movement. There is no mention of any kind of Medieval Renaissance in Scotland and speaking to a more historically inclined cousin, this was indeed the only Scottish Renaissance. Of course I'm not 100% sure, so could someone with a bit more knowledge and time please look into this further. Ta. Davidonut ( talk) 15:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)