![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I reverted these unexplained edits. Although they seem in good faith, they put forward what appears to be a misreading of original sources. A couple of sources are cited by 24.11.88.78 for the early use of the term "Scotch-Irish" in Britain. However, see the essay What's in a Name? by Michael Montgomery of the University of South Carolina concerning these early cases at the Ulster-Scots Language Society website. Both instances refer to "Gaelic-speaking Highlanders and Islanders from western Scotland" and not to the English-speaking Ulster Scots who later came to be called "Scotch-Irish" in America. Eastcote ( talk) 02:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
Removal of the following unreferenced speculation has been reverted twice. It needs to go.
Other occupants of the White House said to have weasel words some family ties with Ulster include presidents John Adams, citation needed John Quincy Adams, citation needed James Monroe, citation needed Dwight D. Eisenhower, citation needed Harry S. Truman, citation needed Jimmy Carter, citation needed Ronald Reagan, clarification needed George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush. [1]
Could those reverting its removal give their reasoning here?-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 07:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Just about every President (JFK would be an exception) would probably have "some" Scotch-Irish ancestry because that ethnic strain was present in such large numbers from such an early point in the country's history, and has become so thoroughly absorbed into the American mainstream. The Scotch-Irish did not constitute a distinct group after their first very few years in America, if even then. 70.233.134.48 ( talk) 16:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi everyone! I had a quick suggestion but didn't feel comfortable editing the page without having an immediate solution. Ulysses S. Grant is not Scots-Irish. In fact, he's not Scot nor Irish. His earliest kown ancestor was from SW England (Matthew Grant born 1601) and his DNA signature suggests Anglo-Saxon roots. I know this for fact as I am related to him and my DNA as well as 4 other people who share the same ancestry as U.S. and I have had there DNA tested. However I don't have a suggestion for a replacement picture, hence my note and no edit. gigrant74 gigrant74 ( talk) 22:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
that is a good point regarding the mother (i read that part again after my message). on his father's side though i'm 100% sure his ancestors never saw scotland. the surname pattan could also be belgian. i've seen it spelled pattyn before. i know nothing about his family though. moore is a common scots-irish name in america. almost all of them came from the ulster plantation in the early 1700's. they bred like rabbits as soon as they got here. what about patrick mcenroe?? gigrant74 ( talk) 01:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Given the hundreds of thousands of Scots-Irish Americans, any selection of just six is almost certain to be wildly unrepresentative. Most of the six shown are appallingly conservative, and generally not the sort of people I would hold up as role models. If you're going to give examples, you should have at least two dozen, and they should be chosen from a range of beliefs and backgrounds. For starters, I nominate the late Popcorn Sutton. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 19:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Giving American census figures for those who identified "Scotch-Irish" ancestry is a given. Giving the figure for those who identified "Irish" or "Scottish" ancestry in the census is iffy. It could be misleading, because some who identify "Irish" might be of Scotch-Irish ancestry, and some might not be. Some who identify "Scottish" might be of Scotch-Irish ancestry, and some might not be. If giving the numbers for "Irish" it makes sense to give the numbers for "Scottish". It is not irrelevant, although in both cases it could be misleading. What are we trying to say with giving these numbers?
Perhaps the best way is to give only those numbers who identify as "Scotch-Irish" and leave it at that. The problem is that Americans of Scotch-Irish descent don't really know which way to turn to develop a "foreign" ethnic identity. Most don't care to, and identify as just plain "American", sticking to homegrown country music and NASCAR. But some are seeking some "old country" roots. There are those who emphasize "Irish" and listen to Irish music, celebrate St. Pat's Day and wear green and all that. Then there are others who emphasize "Scottish" and wear tartan, play bagpipes, watch "Brave Heart", and hold "Highland Games". See here [1], and [2]
Back in the 1700s, they physically came to America from the land that is Ireland. But culturally they were from north Britain, primarily the Scottish Lowlands, and to this day their cousins in Ireland identify as Ulster "Scots". Are we to say in America they were Irish, but in Ireland they were Scots? Eastcote ( talk) 16:44, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the links to ethnic slurs (again) as they have no place here other than to increase animosity. It may be worth pointing out that other pages regarding American ethnic groups do NOT contain links to ethnic slurs under 'see also' so, unless that is to become standard (I hope not), they do not belong here either. Duedemagistris ( talk) 11:27, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Recently reference to "Ullans" as a language spoken by the Scotch-Irish was removed on the justification that the ancestors of the Scotch-Irish Americans do not currently speak it in the United States. Whether or not that is true it has not been contended that the Scotch-Irish Americans did not speak it when they arrived, which is more to the point. Therefore the reference has been restored until consensus. Shoreranger ( talk) 22:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I did some preliminary research and I'm backing off the rewrite request. Notice that the article mentions an American use unknown on the continent. Wouldn't you know it, that is one I use. The original is the Scot-in-northern-Ireland. There is no point in getting into a dither over what might be called by some a provincialism. It can be handled without a rewrite. If I tweaked your triggers, I am sorry.
On the other hand I support the request for authoritative references. If we had brought in the dictionaries to start with, I wouldn't have questioned it. Moreover, some of those refs are not encyclopedic. And, they do not support the article. Strict Scotch-Irish are only a minority of the Scots and Irish who came to America, and yet the references broaden it to all Scots and all Irish. So, there are different meanings. Moreover, the article defines them all as Protestant. So, it seems clear more attention should be paid to definition and nuances of meaning. I think some of references to English word usage might be useful. I'm still going to do some research, but the reason why the article is being misunderstood is its failure to be comprehensive enough in the development of the word and all its current meanings.
Anyway, the pressure being off to correct what seemed to me to be a glaring error, but is only a more minor incompleteness, I probably will spend less time on this one, concentrating on proper references and comprehensive definition. I'm going back to the stubs and the pictures, but you haven;t heard the last of me yet. Botteville ( talk) 00:35, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Added a disputed tag to a very bold and likely unjustifiable statement, which flies in the face of the duly skeptical tenor of Mecklenburg Declaration: "Many professional historians have maintained that the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence is an inaccurate rendering of an authentic document known as the Mecklenburg Resolves."
Recommend rephrasing to retain noteworthy Scots-Irish presence in South Carolina (with source) however the dubious history of the Mecklenburg Declaration must not be asserted as fact.
73.238.21.186 ( talk) 18:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. Someone undid your addition of the disputed tag, so I put it back. The claim is false and, more importantly, not sourced. It is doubted by historians and the onus of proof is on whoever wants to have this in the article to cite a source describing the Scots-Irish involvement. In fact, we should get rid of the statement altogether.
129.170.194.191 ( talk) 05:26, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
The quote from Elizabeth I of England has nothing to do with the Scotch-Irish being discussed here.
Sorley Boy MacDonnell (Somhairle Buidhe Mac Domhnaill) was a Gael from the Hebrides, who married into the native Irish clan O'Neill. Culturally he was the complete antithesis of the "Ulster Scots" ancestors of the Scotch-Irish: Catholic, not Calvinist. A member of the Gaelic culture that was common to both Ireland and the Highland and Islands of Scotland, not the Lowland culture of the Ulster Scots. A speaker of Gaelic (at this time still considered a single language not yet split into modern Irish and Scots Gaelic), not of English or Scots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.69.136 ( talk) 16:14, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Scotch is a drink. Scottish (scot) is an acensetry. Just as the term "oriental" (at least in America) has fallen out of favor and in some circles is offensive and more aptly refers to items such as rug. The term scotch is a liquor not a means of describing a heritage. Strong consideration should be given to revising the title and the information in the article accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.137.205 ( talk) 19:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I so appreciate having the term "Scotch-Irish" validated. Its the term we have been using for ourselves for hundreds of years. "Scots-Irish" sounds like a euphemism, and I don't need to use a euphemism, because I am not embarrassed. If I ever make it to the British Isles again, I will remember to be politically correct according to the linguistic standards there. 152.180.6.2 ( talk) 03:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
In Scotland, it is spelt whisky, which I suppose is closer to "uisge". According to my friend and banker, Mr. Hamill, of Castlewellan, Co. Down, a convivial conversationalist, his Scottish host offered him "Will you have whisky, or Irish?" DaveyHume ( talk) 21:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
You guessed it, I chose to start with this article of the three referenced by the disambig. Naturally, I'm American. Now that I've looked at it I must say what a great article it is. First impressions are not always accurate. Reference 1 is a dead link. It refers to the fact-finder site, so the data can be recovered and updated by a new table lookup. However, those numbers need to be qualified. The 5 mill or so from 2008 had a 30% probability of error. I'm choosing the 2013, 3-year estimate with only a 20% probability of error. There is one for 2014 but it is only 1 year, and the estimates vary a lot from year to year. These are only the households that chose to report a Scotch-Irish ancestry, so it probably reflects only the state of integration of families that have identified themselves as Scotch-Irish. There are those who didn't report it, or were mixed, or who identified with Scotch-Irish but were not that by strict definition. The people of the US generally don't use strict definition (a la Ulster Scots), as this article so propitiously points out. Scotch-Irish to them might just mean Protestant, as opposed to Catholic, or British as opposed to German or some other. The reader should be clued as to the limitations of the data. Right now the box confuses us with contradictory language. Is that or is that not a total number of Scotch-Irish in the US? So, this is going to be my first change. I'm announcing this so you may know what I am doing. Give me some time to effect the changes. I have a new table look-up here but we need to explain it and the ref should be cite web. Ciao. You'll be hearing a LOT more from me gradually, which is the result of trying to question everything I do. Let's fix this article! Botteville ( talk) 14:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
The first few sentences are very condensed, containing two concepts, the first being a definition of Scotch-Irish, the second being the migration of Scotch-Irish to America. References 2 and 3 cover the migration, in some detail, which is good, but there is nothing at all for the definition of Scotch-Irish. In fact you expect it, but the references change the subject onto the migration. The second section gives us a much better view of the term in American English. Historically the term begins with a strict-sense definition: the person must be from Ulster, must have ancestors primarily from Scotland, and must be Presbyterian. This is the dictionary definition still maintained because over there they are not acquainted with the American local uses. Over here it is the usage that varies, the non-strict senses. After 200 years of immigration and co-existence the strict requirements have been relaxed by mechanisms of integration, such as intermarriage. The term might, for instance just mean Protestant or southern Protestant. The usages have been quite different at different times and places, but generally the dictionaries do not cover usages. Also a certain implied mythology has developed, such as that the Protestants of Ireland are or were all in the north, and the Catholics all in the republic, except for a few totally persecuted fellows in the north. Not so. The republic has substantial minorites of Protestants. It had more, but emigration decreased the ratio. So, it seems to me we need to begin with the strict-sense definition, which will take a few refs, and mention the looser uses, which will take more. I have some good refs lined up but I need to check them out and think carefully about what the first few sentences will be. As whether the Scotch-Irish were Ulster Scots, I'm passing on that for now. The claim probably is more true than not for the first wave Irish over here but after the population of the states began to build the usage was often non-strict. So, my next move will be to clarify the definition and introduce the non-strict senses. Botteville ( talk) 04:53, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
A good starting point for the intended changes outlined above is the term "Americans." Someone has been doing a lot of ethnic work on the United States, for which thank you. As far as Americans is concerned, the term is not properly applied. It is, let us say, unbalanced. For example, compare the use of the term in a certain recent film about the supposed activities of a mythical US agency in Columbia in which a bomb is dropped from the air and a Columbian official says "the Americans are here." What did he mean by that? In a second use, American archaeologists are always looking for "the first Americans." So, you can see the concept and use of Americans in these articles is not really general and balanced. In fact "American" did not originally refer to North Americans. I thought of how to fix this incorrect specificity without extensive changes on Wikipedia, this article and elsewhere, and it seems to me it can be handled by a disambig. A hatnote can thus be placed on this article for Americans even before defining Scotch-Irish. Incidentally this ethnic approach to America is strictly limited. After something like 400 years of integration just about about no one fits the same category as their ancestors. For example, the "native Americans" (another use of the term) today admit they've been having problems defining who is a member of their tribe and who not. I see "red men" in holiday parades but unless they paraded as such you'd have no way of identifying them as "red men." So, I hope to have this disambig and hatnote for you before long, maybe today, maybe tomorrow. It's a starting point on a big job, to restore balance to these articles. Botteville ( talk) 21:42, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
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You are no doubt wondering why I have put on the references tag, as there are plenty of references. However, they are not references to the use to Scotch-Irish meaning Ulster Scots. It does not mean Ulster Scots, never did. What you have here is the history of the word Scotch-Irish. Think now. How can Elizabeth I have use the term as Ulster Scots when according to you they hadn't even got to Ireland yet? The thesis that Scotch-Irish means Ulster Scots is nowhere proven. The American Heritage Dictionary, 5th edition, has a really good usage note on Scotch-Irish. It doesn't mean Ulster Scots. So, your references don't prove your thesis at all, that the Ulster Scots played a significant role in colonization of the Americas or that Scotch-Irish as used in America means Ulster Scots. Please, stop trying to push your own thesis off as conventional American word-usage. I'm American, not a young one either, and not uneducated (what difference would that make?) and this is the very first I have ever heard of it. The references tag refers to the fact that your usage of this word is incorrect, so your references are the incorrect ones for the thesis. The rewrite tag asks you to correct or prove the theses, that the Ulster Scots are the one meant by Scotch-Irish. I have an alternative of showing that each one of your references do not refer to Ulster Scots, but WP does not like over-tagging. See also my comments of the disambig and on Ulster Scots People. I should go on to the Canadian Scotch-Irish, which I never heard broken out like that from Scotch-Irish, but this is enough for now.
I know you don't like this correction very much. I would say, make the best of it! Give us a history of the word Scotch-Irish, proper use, for which you have already found the references. Luck. Botteville ( talk) 16:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
"Scotch" is regarded in the British Isles as a racial slur. "Scotch" is used correctly when referring to food and drink associated with Scotland. For example, scotch whisky, scotch egg, scotch beef, scotch lamb. The correct terms to use for people of ethnic Scottish or Scots-Irish heritage are " Scots" and "Scots-Irish." An equivalence would be the use of "spook" to describe an African American - also unacceptable. Neilsplace ( talk) 22:08, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I reverted these unexplained edits. Although they seem in good faith, they put forward what appears to be a misreading of original sources. A couple of sources are cited by 24.11.88.78 for the early use of the term "Scotch-Irish" in Britain. However, see the essay What's in a Name? by Michael Montgomery of the University of South Carolina concerning these early cases at the Ulster-Scots Language Society website. Both instances refer to "Gaelic-speaking Highlanders and Islanders from western Scotland" and not to the English-speaking Ulster Scots who later came to be called "Scotch-Irish" in America. Eastcote ( talk) 02:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
Removal of the following unreferenced speculation has been reverted twice. It needs to go.
Other occupants of the White House said to have weasel words some family ties with Ulster include presidents John Adams, citation needed John Quincy Adams, citation needed James Monroe, citation needed Dwight D. Eisenhower, citation needed Harry S. Truman, citation needed Jimmy Carter, citation needed Ronald Reagan, clarification needed George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush. [1]
Could those reverting its removal give their reasoning here?-- Pontificalibus ( talk) 07:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Just about every President (JFK would be an exception) would probably have "some" Scotch-Irish ancestry because that ethnic strain was present in such large numbers from such an early point in the country's history, and has become so thoroughly absorbed into the American mainstream. The Scotch-Irish did not constitute a distinct group after their first very few years in America, if even then. 70.233.134.48 ( talk) 16:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi everyone! I had a quick suggestion but didn't feel comfortable editing the page without having an immediate solution. Ulysses S. Grant is not Scots-Irish. In fact, he's not Scot nor Irish. His earliest kown ancestor was from SW England (Matthew Grant born 1601) and his DNA signature suggests Anglo-Saxon roots. I know this for fact as I am related to him and my DNA as well as 4 other people who share the same ancestry as U.S. and I have had there DNA tested. However I don't have a suggestion for a replacement picture, hence my note and no edit. gigrant74 gigrant74 ( talk) 22:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
that is a good point regarding the mother (i read that part again after my message). on his father's side though i'm 100% sure his ancestors never saw scotland. the surname pattan could also be belgian. i've seen it spelled pattyn before. i know nothing about his family though. moore is a common scots-irish name in america. almost all of them came from the ulster plantation in the early 1700's. they bred like rabbits as soon as they got here. what about patrick mcenroe?? gigrant74 ( talk) 01:50, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Given the hundreds of thousands of Scots-Irish Americans, any selection of just six is almost certain to be wildly unrepresentative. Most of the six shown are appallingly conservative, and generally not the sort of people I would hold up as role models. If you're going to give examples, you should have at least two dozen, and they should be chosen from a range of beliefs and backgrounds. For starters, I nominate the late Popcorn Sutton. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 19:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Giving American census figures for those who identified "Scotch-Irish" ancestry is a given. Giving the figure for those who identified "Irish" or "Scottish" ancestry in the census is iffy. It could be misleading, because some who identify "Irish" might be of Scotch-Irish ancestry, and some might not be. Some who identify "Scottish" might be of Scotch-Irish ancestry, and some might not be. If giving the numbers for "Irish" it makes sense to give the numbers for "Scottish". It is not irrelevant, although in both cases it could be misleading. What are we trying to say with giving these numbers?
Perhaps the best way is to give only those numbers who identify as "Scotch-Irish" and leave it at that. The problem is that Americans of Scotch-Irish descent don't really know which way to turn to develop a "foreign" ethnic identity. Most don't care to, and identify as just plain "American", sticking to homegrown country music and NASCAR. But some are seeking some "old country" roots. There are those who emphasize "Irish" and listen to Irish music, celebrate St. Pat's Day and wear green and all that. Then there are others who emphasize "Scottish" and wear tartan, play bagpipes, watch "Brave Heart", and hold "Highland Games". See here [1], and [2]
Back in the 1700s, they physically came to America from the land that is Ireland. But culturally they were from north Britain, primarily the Scottish Lowlands, and to this day their cousins in Ireland identify as Ulster "Scots". Are we to say in America they were Irish, but in Ireland they were Scots? Eastcote ( talk) 16:44, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the links to ethnic slurs (again) as they have no place here other than to increase animosity. It may be worth pointing out that other pages regarding American ethnic groups do NOT contain links to ethnic slurs under 'see also' so, unless that is to become standard (I hope not), they do not belong here either. Duedemagistris ( talk) 11:27, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Recently reference to "Ullans" as a language spoken by the Scotch-Irish was removed on the justification that the ancestors of the Scotch-Irish Americans do not currently speak it in the United States. Whether or not that is true it has not been contended that the Scotch-Irish Americans did not speak it when they arrived, which is more to the point. Therefore the reference has been restored until consensus. Shoreranger ( talk) 22:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I did some preliminary research and I'm backing off the rewrite request. Notice that the article mentions an American use unknown on the continent. Wouldn't you know it, that is one I use. The original is the Scot-in-northern-Ireland. There is no point in getting into a dither over what might be called by some a provincialism. It can be handled without a rewrite. If I tweaked your triggers, I am sorry.
On the other hand I support the request for authoritative references. If we had brought in the dictionaries to start with, I wouldn't have questioned it. Moreover, some of those refs are not encyclopedic. And, they do not support the article. Strict Scotch-Irish are only a minority of the Scots and Irish who came to America, and yet the references broaden it to all Scots and all Irish. So, there are different meanings. Moreover, the article defines them all as Protestant. So, it seems clear more attention should be paid to definition and nuances of meaning. I think some of references to English word usage might be useful. I'm still going to do some research, but the reason why the article is being misunderstood is its failure to be comprehensive enough in the development of the word and all its current meanings.
Anyway, the pressure being off to correct what seemed to me to be a glaring error, but is only a more minor incompleteness, I probably will spend less time on this one, concentrating on proper references and comprehensive definition. I'm going back to the stubs and the pictures, but you haven;t heard the last of me yet. Botteville ( talk) 00:35, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Added a disputed tag to a very bold and likely unjustifiable statement, which flies in the face of the duly skeptical tenor of Mecklenburg Declaration: "Many professional historians have maintained that the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence is an inaccurate rendering of an authentic document known as the Mecklenburg Resolves."
Recommend rephrasing to retain noteworthy Scots-Irish presence in South Carolina (with source) however the dubious history of the Mecklenburg Declaration must not be asserted as fact.
73.238.21.186 ( talk) 18:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. Someone undid your addition of the disputed tag, so I put it back. The claim is false and, more importantly, not sourced. It is doubted by historians and the onus of proof is on whoever wants to have this in the article to cite a source describing the Scots-Irish involvement. In fact, we should get rid of the statement altogether.
129.170.194.191 ( talk) 05:26, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
The quote from Elizabeth I of England has nothing to do with the Scotch-Irish being discussed here.
Sorley Boy MacDonnell (Somhairle Buidhe Mac Domhnaill) was a Gael from the Hebrides, who married into the native Irish clan O'Neill. Culturally he was the complete antithesis of the "Ulster Scots" ancestors of the Scotch-Irish: Catholic, not Calvinist. A member of the Gaelic culture that was common to both Ireland and the Highland and Islands of Scotland, not the Lowland culture of the Ulster Scots. A speaker of Gaelic (at this time still considered a single language not yet split into modern Irish and Scots Gaelic), not of English or Scots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.69.136 ( talk) 16:14, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Scotch is a drink. Scottish (scot) is an acensetry. Just as the term "oriental" (at least in America) has fallen out of favor and in some circles is offensive and more aptly refers to items such as rug. The term scotch is a liquor not a means of describing a heritage. Strong consideration should be given to revising the title and the information in the article accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.137.205 ( talk) 19:52, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I so appreciate having the term "Scotch-Irish" validated. Its the term we have been using for ourselves for hundreds of years. "Scots-Irish" sounds like a euphemism, and I don't need to use a euphemism, because I am not embarrassed. If I ever make it to the British Isles again, I will remember to be politically correct according to the linguistic standards there. 152.180.6.2 ( talk) 03:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
In Scotland, it is spelt whisky, which I suppose is closer to "uisge". According to my friend and banker, Mr. Hamill, of Castlewellan, Co. Down, a convivial conversationalist, his Scottish host offered him "Will you have whisky, or Irish?" DaveyHume ( talk) 21:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
You guessed it, I chose to start with this article of the three referenced by the disambig. Naturally, I'm American. Now that I've looked at it I must say what a great article it is. First impressions are not always accurate. Reference 1 is a dead link. It refers to the fact-finder site, so the data can be recovered and updated by a new table lookup. However, those numbers need to be qualified. The 5 mill or so from 2008 had a 30% probability of error. I'm choosing the 2013, 3-year estimate with only a 20% probability of error. There is one for 2014 but it is only 1 year, and the estimates vary a lot from year to year. These are only the households that chose to report a Scotch-Irish ancestry, so it probably reflects only the state of integration of families that have identified themselves as Scotch-Irish. There are those who didn't report it, or were mixed, or who identified with Scotch-Irish but were not that by strict definition. The people of the US generally don't use strict definition (a la Ulster Scots), as this article so propitiously points out. Scotch-Irish to them might just mean Protestant, as opposed to Catholic, or British as opposed to German or some other. The reader should be clued as to the limitations of the data. Right now the box confuses us with contradictory language. Is that or is that not a total number of Scotch-Irish in the US? So, this is going to be my first change. I'm announcing this so you may know what I am doing. Give me some time to effect the changes. I have a new table look-up here but we need to explain it and the ref should be cite web. Ciao. You'll be hearing a LOT more from me gradually, which is the result of trying to question everything I do. Let's fix this article! Botteville ( talk) 14:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
The first few sentences are very condensed, containing two concepts, the first being a definition of Scotch-Irish, the second being the migration of Scotch-Irish to America. References 2 and 3 cover the migration, in some detail, which is good, but there is nothing at all for the definition of Scotch-Irish. In fact you expect it, but the references change the subject onto the migration. The second section gives us a much better view of the term in American English. Historically the term begins with a strict-sense definition: the person must be from Ulster, must have ancestors primarily from Scotland, and must be Presbyterian. This is the dictionary definition still maintained because over there they are not acquainted with the American local uses. Over here it is the usage that varies, the non-strict senses. After 200 years of immigration and co-existence the strict requirements have been relaxed by mechanisms of integration, such as intermarriage. The term might, for instance just mean Protestant or southern Protestant. The usages have been quite different at different times and places, but generally the dictionaries do not cover usages. Also a certain implied mythology has developed, such as that the Protestants of Ireland are or were all in the north, and the Catholics all in the republic, except for a few totally persecuted fellows in the north. Not so. The republic has substantial minorites of Protestants. It had more, but emigration decreased the ratio. So, it seems to me we need to begin with the strict-sense definition, which will take a few refs, and mention the looser uses, which will take more. I have some good refs lined up but I need to check them out and think carefully about what the first few sentences will be. As whether the Scotch-Irish were Ulster Scots, I'm passing on that for now. The claim probably is more true than not for the first wave Irish over here but after the population of the states began to build the usage was often non-strict. So, my next move will be to clarify the definition and introduce the non-strict senses. Botteville ( talk) 04:53, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
A good starting point for the intended changes outlined above is the term "Americans." Someone has been doing a lot of ethnic work on the United States, for which thank you. As far as Americans is concerned, the term is not properly applied. It is, let us say, unbalanced. For example, compare the use of the term in a certain recent film about the supposed activities of a mythical US agency in Columbia in which a bomb is dropped from the air and a Columbian official says "the Americans are here." What did he mean by that? In a second use, American archaeologists are always looking for "the first Americans." So, you can see the concept and use of Americans in these articles is not really general and balanced. In fact "American" did not originally refer to North Americans. I thought of how to fix this incorrect specificity without extensive changes on Wikipedia, this article and elsewhere, and it seems to me it can be handled by a disambig. A hatnote can thus be placed on this article for Americans even before defining Scotch-Irish. Incidentally this ethnic approach to America is strictly limited. After something like 400 years of integration just about about no one fits the same category as their ancestors. For example, the "native Americans" (another use of the term) today admit they've been having problems defining who is a member of their tribe and who not. I see "red men" in holiday parades but unless they paraded as such you'd have no way of identifying them as "red men." So, I hope to have this disambig and hatnote for you before long, maybe today, maybe tomorrow. It's a starting point on a big job, to restore balance to these articles. Botteville ( talk) 21:42, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
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You are no doubt wondering why I have put on the references tag, as there are plenty of references. However, they are not references to the use to Scotch-Irish meaning Ulster Scots. It does not mean Ulster Scots, never did. What you have here is the history of the word Scotch-Irish. Think now. How can Elizabeth I have use the term as Ulster Scots when according to you they hadn't even got to Ireland yet? The thesis that Scotch-Irish means Ulster Scots is nowhere proven. The American Heritage Dictionary, 5th edition, has a really good usage note on Scotch-Irish. It doesn't mean Ulster Scots. So, your references don't prove your thesis at all, that the Ulster Scots played a significant role in colonization of the Americas or that Scotch-Irish as used in America means Ulster Scots. Please, stop trying to push your own thesis off as conventional American word-usage. I'm American, not a young one either, and not uneducated (what difference would that make?) and this is the very first I have ever heard of it. The references tag refers to the fact that your usage of this word is incorrect, so your references are the incorrect ones for the thesis. The rewrite tag asks you to correct or prove the theses, that the Ulster Scots are the one meant by Scotch-Irish. I have an alternative of showing that each one of your references do not refer to Ulster Scots, but WP does not like over-tagging. See also my comments of the disambig and on Ulster Scots People. I should go on to the Canadian Scotch-Irish, which I never heard broken out like that from Scotch-Irish, but this is enough for now.
I know you don't like this correction very much. I would say, make the best of it! Give us a history of the word Scotch-Irish, proper use, for which you have already found the references. Luck. Botteville ( talk) 16:34, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
"Scotch" is regarded in the British Isles as a racial slur. "Scotch" is used correctly when referring to food and drink associated with Scotland. For example, scotch whisky, scotch egg, scotch beef, scotch lamb. The correct terms to use for people of ethnic Scottish or Scots-Irish heritage are " Scots" and "Scots-Irish." An equivalence would be the use of "spook" to describe an African American - also unacceptable. Neilsplace ( talk) 22:08, 27 November 2017 (UTC)