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This talk page certainly needs archiving. Not a chance of seeing the whole thing in Blazer. Could someone who has been paying attention oblige? Banno 00:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
In reading the article, I noticed that there was no mention that some scientific research is not available for peer review/publishing, such as classified research for the government and corporate research and development projects. A one sentence addition would be useful about that. This suggestion can be deleted (archived) if someone makes it so. 208.50.10.5 15:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This material placed yesterday into the introduction by User:Faaaa, removed yesterday: ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This placed today by User:Faaaa [1]), removed and placed here for analysis and further consideration. ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This introduction was thoroughly parsed by about 8 different editors several months ago. Any significant changes should be well researched and justified on this page. ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Faaaa, please provide citations. Otherwise, it's OR, and inadmissable. 220.244.221.35 23:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)(that was me - dang IE - Banno 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC))
yeh, i know
The ball lighting which killed Georg Richmann was observed by Sokolow, his engraver. cites are Clarke, Ronald W. Benjamin Franklin, A Biography. Random House (1983) p. 87 and Physics Today, vol. 59, #1, p.42. -- Ancheta Wis 10:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC) -- (Sokolow survived the experiment.)
Ball lightning has since been created in the laboratory. Antônio Pavão and Gerson Paiva, New Scientist, issue 2586, 10 January 2007, page 12. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19325863.500&feedId=online-news_rss20 -- Ancheta Wis 10:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
dunno who started adding this. but I don't think it helps or is accurate. it was a major change and wasn't discuss. pls discuss and get agreement before major changes Mccready 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I assume that I am talking to scientists, who are well known for their effort to be reasonable. My questions are.
The reason we named our natural world homogeneous is because we want to be able to understand it and predict it. Due to our appetence to understand and predict, we repulsed the possibility that the natural world may not be homogeneous, although we have plenty of evidences of that possibility (see Physical paradoxes, black holes e.t.c.) Faaaa 09:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the correct term symmetry? Stephen B Streater 09:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC).
JA: There was a lot of discussion in the 19th century about the role of homogeneity and regularity assumptions in science. Whether homegeneity and regularity are same thing or not is another good question. Based on a fundamental theme out of Aristotle, J.S. Mill and others derived a few simple inferences about the "regularity of nature" and its salience in science. But the analysis of C.S. Peirce, as usual, showed that the real situation was not as simple as it had been supposed. The issues involved here go to the root of scientific inquiry, and so I will take them up under the more general heading below. Jon Awbrey 14:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Being, I'm guessing, the only person or even quasi-person here with a degree in "Mathematical and Philosophical Method" (BA MPM, JMC, MSU, 1976), I feel quasi-qualified to say something on the nature of method, scientific method in particular.
JA: The first thing to know about any method is that it involves a voluntary limitation. So when you say that a method is limited this is just a tautology. It is the limit that makes it a method. The question is whether the limit that you are talking about is the one that is built into the method from the start, or perhaps some other limit that was not intended.
JA: When it comes to scientific method, the limit that defines the method was identified some time ago by Aristotle. I will comment on this after I finish my coffee. Jon Awbrey 12:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I have corrected a slight overstatement of the status of causality in science. I think that my qualifications are a fairer summary of the literature, and it's easy to come up with many citations from the likes of anybody from Peirce to Heisenberg if anybody feels the need to do so. Jon Awbrey 20:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised so little is mentioned on the role of probability, in several areas:
1. Precision of measurement and importance of including it in calculations and results.
2. Weighing of the (estimated) probability of the truth of a hypothesis with the effort involved in resolving it further. Failing to do this well is one of the main hindrances to scientific progress. For example, there was a time when the vast majority of doctors chose not to spend 30 seconds washing their hands between patients because they assigned an unreasonably low probability to the validity of the microbe hypothesis, or were simply too lazy, or both. It seems a true scientist would at least be willing to try it for a few months to conduct his own experiment. We must be careful to consider ourselves part of the "enlightened age of enlightened thinking"--those doctors probably felt the same way.
3. Philosophy: nothing can be totally proven and nothing can be totally disproven (only seat-of-the-pants probabilities can be assigned) because the laws of a universe cannot be proven consistent from within that universe. Yes, we've even learned "logic" by observing our universe.
-QZ27, Aug 13, 2006
Just posting to say my first impression of a quick look through the article is a really good one, and I especially like the bit unorthodox way of merging the DNA examples into the article to exemplify the topics that could otherwise be a bit abstract. I haven't seen the method in much use in Wikipedia, but I think it works really well. :-) -- Northgrove 22:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Kenosis, I advise you to revert your removal of observation from the callout box. I understand your concern, but I point out that the author(s) of the text have been careful to introduce observation as a 'facet' of scientific method and not as an initial step. This could be clarified without removing the text on observation.
By the way, in the article 'theory ladenness' is mentioned without reference to Popper. Isn't it Popper who speaks of 'falsifying hypotheses' rather than 'falsifying facts'. And isn't it Popper who first argued that observation can't be the first step (Yeah, I know Lakatos argued the same, but I expect he got there later). Anyhow I always thought theory ladenness was Popper's baby. -- Chris 15:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This particular callout box was largely derived from the text Research Methods in Psychology (don't recall which author, there are several such texts by this title) and is presented as one of several ways scientific method is delineated or summarized. Originally it was summarized as "description", "prediction", "control (where possible and appropriate)" and "understanding", along with the three-point addition about "time-order relationships", "covariation of events" and "identification of causes to the best achievable extent". Someone has since replaced "understanding" with "falsifiability" and attached to "falsifiability" the supplementary content about increasing confidence levels in the results of a hypothesis or theory as observations are confirmed or contradicted in accordance with the research. That's Wikipedia for ya'.
As I stated in the edit summary, observation runs throughout the entire process. Please read the already existing text-- although much of it is currently lacking in explicit citations, this article has had ongoing participation by experts in the subject, including several professional scientists. The article amply describes how observation fits into the method at every stage of the process. Two paragraphs down from the second callout box is a paragraph stating that observation is inevitably "theory laden", that is, driven by the concepts one intends to pursue at any given stage of observation. An entire section is devoted to abductive reasoning, in addition to several additional mentions of the concept. A mere reference to "observation" is meaningless here-- everyone observes, including scientists, non-scientists, junk-scientists and pseudoscientists alike. What the article describes is how, in summary, scientific method involves specific kinds of observation, the relevant analysis, further focused observation, adaptation of the focus of the research, further analysis and testing, documentation of all data so others can similarly direct their testing and analysis, etc. ... Kenosis 16:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to challenge the statement that we have documented the standard scientific method. From the 'Elements...' section I quote,
If we mean 'standard' in the sense that a research body has seen fit to institutionalize this version of the method, then we should cite the standard. I have inserted the {{fact}} template. On the other hand, if we merely mean that it is standard in the sense that it is typical of how the scientific method is schematized, then it would be more accutare to say just that. -- Chris 19:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I've narrowed the statement and provided one citation for now. I should point out that this section was written with a cautious eye on the perspectives of Popper, Kuhn, Thagard, Lacatos, among others, and it generally applies irrespective of paradigm shifts, ant-colony behavior among scientists, jealous covetry of the next big breakthrough, etc. And nothing escapes Feyerabend. As Hugh Gauch put it in Scientific Method in Practice (2003), commenting on Feyerabend's sociological perspective: "Such critiques are unfamiliar to most scientists, although some may have heard a few distant shots from the so-called science wars. Scientists typically find those objections either silly or aggravating, so rather few engage such controversies or bother to contribute in a sophisticated and influential manner. But in the humanities, those deep critiques of rationality are currently quite influential. Anyway, by that reckoning, Figure 1.1 [which diagrams scientific method with a core set of principles and many specialized branches representing particular fields] should show blank paper."
In addition to the two callout boxes outlining aspects of scientific method generally, the Wikipedia article outlines a seven point description of the hypothesis/testing cycle, as follows:
If this isn't standard, I don't know what is. ... Kenosis 22:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Neelsmalan 17:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
What is science? Let us simplify and popularize our understanding of the concept 'science': Science is knowledge which was tested against a criterion.
Explanation:
1) Untested knowledge remains knowledge. 'That car is traveling fast' is my perception of the speed of a car. My perception may be 'true' of 'false' depending on, amongst other things, what is accepted as 'true' (e.g. faster that 80 kmh) as what as false.
2) Tested knowledge is scientific knowledge (according to my simple definition), but scientific knowledge is not necessarily true or valid. It is just as valid as the criterion on which it rests. Scientific knowledge is 'honest' or accountable knowledge, because you put all your cards on the table. You declare your criterion(s)/ assumption(s). 'That car is traveling fast' may rest on my assumption that the speed testing apparatus I may be using is giving a valid reading, and, secondly, that traveling above 80 kmp is accepted as fast.
3) Conclusion: We may have 'good' science as well as 'bad' science, but we should keep in mind that 'bad' science' is still science. What makes bad science bad is
a) the invalid testing of a valid criterion; b) the valid testing of an invalid criterion; or c) the invalid testing of an invalid criterion.
Am I right?
Stanislaw Ulam in his autobiography Adventures of a Mathematician recommended
Poincaré's Science and Hypothesis to all. A link to an e-print of this classic is listed in the bib. of the article. --
Ancheta Wis
21:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC) But the font of the e-print is pretty strong. Maybe it was meant to be read to a class of students in a classroom.
I've removed the following sentence from the first paragraph of the intro, for further consideration as to its accuracy and relevance in the intro. Perhaps it was an attempt to explain the concept of a theory?, which is already introduced elsewhere. Also, there were previously some concern about whether the statement "All such evidence is collectively called scientific evidence" belonged in that paragraph, so I've removed that pending a clarification on whether it's needed in the lead paragraph. ... Kenosis 16:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the large section on Peirce's theory. There does not appear to be a good reason to single him out for a special place in this article. Banno 21:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
In my interpretation www.wikinfo.org has a much more clear and succinct introduction for "scientific method":
What do you think? I think the current version of this article is needlessly wordy and has confusing sentence construction and its introduction misses the abstract essence of the scientific method. zen apprentice T 18:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "body of techniques" portrays too concrete a concept given that specific rules might vary from one field of inquiry to another. Only "core [abstract] principles" or at least less concrete "rules of thumb" can be common among something that is variable...? The first sentence of the current introduction reads like a definition which I consider to be incomplete because a key point, iteration/repetition, is not mentioned until later and mentioned insufficiently explicitly. I chose "iterative process" to hopefully convey that the process repeats forever or at least does not produce an absolute conclusion in and of itself [much confusion exists on this point]. The word "repetition" by itself to me means repeating the exact same concrete process over and over again which I consider to be incomplete/misleading, it's better to note the scientific method's repetitive nature more explicitly but also less specifically, something to the effect of: iteration is inherent in the scientific method. "Recursive" might actually work better than either "repetition" or "iterative" now that I think about it.
My primary issues with the current introduction is its phraseology, it has little passion and is difficult to parse and comprehend and seems written by committee (all over the place). Though, the current introduction is not as bad as I first thought after reading it a few more times, but I repeat it is difficult to parse, especially for someone with apparently poor or slow reading comprehension (me). Other issues with the current introduction: the word "taint" is better than the word "bias" in my interpretation, everyone has some sort of personal bias, "taint" in this context applies unambiguously to research/results, it's more important to note that research might be tainted (which indicates the research is potentially worthless). I asked why you labeled the above proposed definition the "essentialist view" because I still have no idea what that label means or how it is relevant. Now that I understand your other counter criticisms more I will try to come up with a hopefully better new compromise/superset introduction proposal soon. zen apprentice T 20:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I know that we never seem to get further than the introduction, but here's a thing. We say in the second sentence, "It is based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning." In the citation, Newton uses the work 'rules' rather than 'laws'. I notice that this is normally the case as in Descartes' Rules for the Direction of the Mind, Popper's "rule of thumb". Bacon, despite being a lawyer, calls his New Organon, "true directions concerning the interpretation of nature". I suggest we change the sentence to read "rules of reasoning". -- Chris 21:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The scientific method is a logical, multiple step, and recursive process to expand and improve knowledge using general principles and procedures commonly including the observation of phenomenon, formulation of hypotheses, investigation, experimentation, verification and unification. Specific procedures often vary between different fields of scientific inquiry. Other principles include requiring research to be open to both refinement and independent scrutiny.
The steps of scientific method are currently our best approach to understanding, and they are rooted in our history, but it has taken the best minds of our civilization to come up with the steps. Most people can only hope to engage in only one or two of the steps at a time. Scientists work in communities and specialize in one or two of the steps themselves; since unusual people like Newton or Galileo showed the breadth and depth of comprehension to be able to engage in all the steps (see the yellow boxes), then it may help to characterize what one or two of them has done, before proposing a succinct intro paragraph. That of course limits the scope of generality of any proposed intro paragraph. -- Ancheta Wis 10:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Responding to everyone above, in my interpretation my proposed new introduction at the top of this section is better than the current introduction but since allegedly "seven" or "eight" user accounts disagree I suppose I will continue to discuss and work toward a larger consensus with more and more people. I would not characterize the current introduction's deficiencies as being merely "stylistic" but instead I interpret them to be fundamental deficiencies. Though I am not saying necessarily throw away the current introduction completely, just that the top proposal is a good first introductory paragraph (there can be more than one introductory paragraph, feel free to add on to it if you think it is incomplete). The way the current intro is written does not lead the reader onward in my interpretation and seems almost as if it was fabricated for the purpose of befuddling readers subtly. Please explain how you think the proposed new top introduction gives readers a "false impression of comprehension of comprehesiveness"? If an introduction is just a tease readers are more likely to keep reading. Note: I added the word "investigation" to the proposal at the top of this section. zen apprentice T 00:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
John Rennie wrote:
Is there anyone who has ever sought to generalize science beyond the self-imposed limitation of naturalism? That is, to extend the range of science beyond the physical, material world of nature and to explore the inner realm of thought or the spiritual world ( afterlife) spoken of by religions? -- Uncle Ed 20:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
1) One never proves the hypothesis to be true--they fail to disprove it.
2)What about mentioning the null hypothesis. In some circumstances the null hypothesis is tested to prove good research methods/techniques.
I just hacked away at the intro. We really need to keep this as simple as possible. I have tried to rewrite it in a way that is more crisp and simple. I hope this is OK. Comments welcomed. David D. (Talk) 16:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Having said that, I think that sentence should be simple and straightforward, avoiding qualifications such as "that is not to imply..." or other attempts to get excessively detailed about it. Underneath this assertion in the introduction, however it is phrased, are issues such as countering subject and observer bias (double blind studies with human subjects, but other methods must be used to minimize or eliminate other forms of observer bias), the Hawthorne effect (if it in fact exists), fudging of data (called fraud but under the same rubrick of non-objectivity), junk science (not quite fraud, but involving experimental designs and interpretations designed to make one's backers willing to hire you again), etc. Whatever it is that is said should be said very quickly and move right on to quickly touching the next necessary basic introductory point. ... Kenosis 21:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand that such wholesale changes to an introduction are likely to rock the boat but i thought that giving you a complete version of where i think the introduction should be heading might be a good start before arguing individual points. I disagree that a stable introduction represents the best introduction. The first time I edited this page the introduction was monstrous and jargon heavy to the point it made it hard to comprehend without rereading two or three times. I believe that version had been quite stable too. While this introduction is much better, in my opinion there is still room for improvement.
Here is one specific point with respect to the second paragraph: Present version:
Proposed version:
First, what is the point of this sentence? I think it is that "there are common features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of inquiry".
I removed the bold text since it was not clear that it is important with regard to this point and may actually impede comprehension. For example, does field of inquiry refer to scientific fields of inquiry only, or does it have a broader meaning to include other methods of developing knowledge too? As currently written, this could be taken either way. If it refers to 'scientific inquiry only' (which I think is the case), then it appears to be unnecessary with respect to the point being made. Why is it necessary to discuss that the specialized procedures vary? This seems to be unrelated to the take home point of the sentence.
With respect to the word identifiable. What does this add to the content? Wouldn't any feature be identifiable by definition? This word seems redundant in the current context. I favor removing such words since they distract from the point being made. i have other comments but lets start with this sentence. David D. (Talk) 21:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, the reason for the wording of that sentence is to account for the demarcation problem identified both above and below on this talk page. Popper, Thagard, Kuhn, Lakatos and others made attempts at it, and it turns out that scientific method has wide differences in what is considered acceptable method, depending on field of inquiry. Nonetheless, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific method from other forms of inquiry. There was a reason for the inclusion of the words "[A]lthough specialized procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another," which was to state the point consistently with the fact that the acceptable method(s) can vary from one field to another. This is, of course, substantially why many commentators and educators have advocated avoiding the use of the word "the" attached to the words "scientific method". ... Kenosis 02:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
First I want to thank Banno for his recent edits which I believe were an improvement. It's only a shame that the demarcation section had to go, although I understand why it had to. A lot of work is required on the demarcation article itself. Once things start to shape up there, maybe we can re-introduce the section. -- Chris 20:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just reverted an anon user's contrubution from the intro, specifically one which replaced the longstanding second paragraph of the lead ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scientific_method&diff=84756426&oldid=84514984 implemented here). Because it appears to be an explanation that could be of potential future value in the future, I'm placing it immediately below for futher reference. The removed material is as follows: ... Kenosis 04:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised that this is not a featured article yet. What's the holdup? Sr13 07:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
These ideas were skipped over by Isaac Newton with, "I do not define time, space, place and motion, as being well known to all."
This is not right. He doesn't skip over them. Newton is saying that he is not defining what is popularly understood as these things and immediately goes on to define each of them in detail in absolute and relative terms. The text is at http://pratt.edu/~arch543p/readings/Newton.html
-Pepper 150.203.227.130 05:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I made some changes to the first 3 paras. I find that in most of this,that too much the "results of" and/or "the management of" science, it's experiments and it' "useful paradigms and expectations" (e.g. that hypotheses will get broader, more accurate, etc., or that they must be made by the "rules of logic" which themselves have yet to have a fully acceptable foundation, as is the same with math, that measurement is indirect "obervations usually based on a theory", etc., etc., is all only an observation that hypotheses agglomerate into theories, that these so very often are expressed in math terms, that so much of physics can be based on Lagrangians, etc., etc. I vote to keep it to the bare 3 steps. Any more is as yet untested, unhypothesized "observations" on our proceedings to date with the three steps. We may call much of it meta scientific method or emerging philosophy and separate, but not all that is put forth here is really needed, or I believe really is in sci meth. 129.24.141.64 23:32, 25 November 2006 LekLiberty
I did not know that laughter (hahahaha), which I have never done before, explained the scientific method. Hey everyone! Laughter is the best way to solve and conduct an experiment! 67.86.24.40 00:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
1. Experiment is part of "Observation" and/of of "Testing of Hypotheses" which is part of SM. Experimentless observation/testing is possible and allowed, required some might say when a discipline is very new, cuz at that time there is not enuf "known" to even think of hypothesizing or testing! So Experimentation is not the top level part of the SM definition; Observation and/or Testing is and they includes Experimentation as subsets. 2. The problem mentioned is better stated "there is a problem with desining experiments without a Hypothesis in mind". And research is a synonym for either SM or literature review/search! 3. The research is necessarily in the hands of the researchers, with errors, ignorance and even game playing if "so unethical". Replication of any of the three steps of SM I suggest is it's definition, Observation, Hypothesis and Test, catches all these: errors, ignorance and even game playing and unethical practices. LekLibertyLekLiberty
To Wjbeaty and anyone else out there:---
How do you define, and get a list of cooperating members for us to querry, experts in science, without a definition of science? And how do you get them without a definition, and get a list of cooperating cooperating memebers for us to query, of experts? This progression is essentially an infinite regression and won't terminate.
Agree, getting a definition of SM gets us to a definition of science. Still I submit the majority of practitioners (experts if you must) will ultimately agree that the SM is only the Three Steps of Observe, Hypothesize, and Test. All other suggested components are essenially only management and dissemination and "commercialization", I submit!
There will be discussion, because, today there are few Renaissance science experts to get at due to extreme specialization. And there will be a need to distinguish the active practice of science, the verb, and the body of knowledge that presently considered true (which only means it has not yet been disproved), the noun(s).
I'd like to see my definition presented to your experts, etc., cuz I think most all of the stuff I've read misses the mark. And in so doing, ya'll are allowong the very distortions you speak of to exist and procreate. And, some of that will get to less than expert in science funders who will then waste and abuse.
I don't want the job of "expert", but neither can I claim ignorance and unfamiliarity. FYI, and not to be bragging, or one upsmanshipping in any way, I've got 30+ years in RDT&E, Academia, Industry, Gov't Scientific Advisor positions, and BA, BS, MS, PH.D., post doc, and secondary ed theough grad school teaching on all this. I really fear for it being "gotten wrong".
Please advise me how I can get "reviewed", "critiqued", etc.---LekLiberty 1/4/07
This article seems very theoretical: is there data showing to what extent the scientific method is actually used by actual, practicing scientists or by non professional scientists ?
Do you really mean theoretical or are you meaning abstract and still not understandable? It's an important distinction for those of us who are trying to get it all right. The street English expressions along the lines of "the thoretical" verses "the practical" have no use in this effort and may be part of where you are coming from. If so, don't worry, you have much company, and if ever we converge to an agreed definition of the "Scintific Method" and "Science", hopefully it will become more clear.
If there is no DATA to show that scientists use the SM described in the article, then the SM is in and of itself, non scientific - not quite sure how to deal with the sort of recursive questions that this raises. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.60.137.141 ( talk) 02:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
Answers for some of what you ask otherwise, follows: Theory is another name for a hypothesis or the collection of hypotheses in some domain of discussion, in the scientific method. Theories are tested by experiments, observations, and predictions of the theory that are tested in the same manner. Data is that which is observed. It is the result of the second step of the scientific method of Observe, Hypothesize, Test which I am advocating in some of the above. For an article along the lines you request I suggest: Lightman, Alan, "Moments of Truth", page 36, New Scientist, 19 November 2005. 129.24.141.152 23:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)LekLiberty
I've made some comments on Scientific Method and Peer Review in these discusssion sections and have read it all. In my opinion, and I am a practicing "scientist", and I don't think what we have here is "correct" or shows any sign of "converging to anything" near to correct. FYI on my "concerns" are that I see the base SM missed and over defined, and added to it a bunch of subsidiary issues such as propagation of "results", management of SM activities, validation "types" for SM, old historical views from the early days when it was part of "natural philosophy", and such that is basicly confused and confusing to "students and teachers" (cuz they took me to task and told me so!!)
I suggest that if you guys need to get your "verifiable" needs met and get "practitioners of science and peer review" definitions, that you/we ask for them from: scientists, scientific organizations, science funding agencies, and the same types for history of science sources, philosophy of science sources, and any others you feel you need for your verifialbility requirements. I do feel it's presently wrong enuf to worry about. I suggest you start as Wipepedians "formally requesting inputs" and would suggest you start with the Society of Sigma Xi, which is "the" non-denominational honorary science society. Their publication "American Scientist" would I'm sure receive a letter along these lines and probably publish it in one of their publications. I am a memeber, and would do it for you; but, I think the "formal Wikepedia", whoever/whatever that is, should do it!! LekLiberty
Regarding the history article, it might be worth mentioning that I've been trying to find the original source of the common scientific method. I mean the one with a small number of steps: 1) Observe, 2) Develop hypothesis, 3) Bake for 15 minutes, 4) Serve with a selection of vegetables. Or whatever it was now. Any leads? -- ChrisSteinbach 22:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This talk page certainly needs archiving. Not a chance of seeing the whole thing in Blazer. Could someone who has been paying attention oblige? Banno 00:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
In reading the article, I noticed that there was no mention that some scientific research is not available for peer review/publishing, such as classified research for the government and corporate research and development projects. A one sentence addition would be useful about that. This suggestion can be deleted (archived) if someone makes it so. 208.50.10.5 15:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This material placed yesterday into the introduction by User:Faaaa, removed yesterday: ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This placed today by User:Faaaa [1]), removed and placed here for analysis and further consideration. ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
This introduction was thoroughly parsed by about 8 different editors several months ago. Any significant changes should be well researched and justified on this page. ... Kenosis 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Faaaa, please provide citations. Otherwise, it's OR, and inadmissable. 220.244.221.35 23:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)(that was me - dang IE - Banno 00:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC))
yeh, i know
The ball lighting which killed Georg Richmann was observed by Sokolow, his engraver. cites are Clarke, Ronald W. Benjamin Franklin, A Biography. Random House (1983) p. 87 and Physics Today, vol. 59, #1, p.42. -- Ancheta Wis 10:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC) -- (Sokolow survived the experiment.)
Ball lightning has since been created in the laboratory. Antônio Pavão and Gerson Paiva, New Scientist, issue 2586, 10 January 2007, page 12. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19325863.500&feedId=online-news_rss20 -- Ancheta Wis 10:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
dunno who started adding this. but I don't think it helps or is accurate. it was a major change and wasn't discuss. pls discuss and get agreement before major changes Mccready 15:29, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I assume that I am talking to scientists, who are well known for their effort to be reasonable. My questions are.
The reason we named our natural world homogeneous is because we want to be able to understand it and predict it. Due to our appetence to understand and predict, we repulsed the possibility that the natural world may not be homogeneous, although we have plenty of evidences of that possibility (see Physical paradoxes, black holes e.t.c.) Faaaa 09:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the correct term symmetry? Stephen B Streater 09:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC).
JA: There was a lot of discussion in the 19th century about the role of homogeneity and regularity assumptions in science. Whether homegeneity and regularity are same thing or not is another good question. Based on a fundamental theme out of Aristotle, J.S. Mill and others derived a few simple inferences about the "regularity of nature" and its salience in science. But the analysis of C.S. Peirce, as usual, showed that the real situation was not as simple as it had been supposed. The issues involved here go to the root of scientific inquiry, and so I will take them up under the more general heading below. Jon Awbrey 14:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Being, I'm guessing, the only person or even quasi-person here with a degree in "Mathematical and Philosophical Method" (BA MPM, JMC, MSU, 1976), I feel quasi-qualified to say something on the nature of method, scientific method in particular.
JA: The first thing to know about any method is that it involves a voluntary limitation. So when you say that a method is limited this is just a tautology. It is the limit that makes it a method. The question is whether the limit that you are talking about is the one that is built into the method from the start, or perhaps some other limit that was not intended.
JA: When it comes to scientific method, the limit that defines the method was identified some time ago by Aristotle. I will comment on this after I finish my coffee. Jon Awbrey 12:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I have corrected a slight overstatement of the status of causality in science. I think that my qualifications are a fairer summary of the literature, and it's easy to come up with many citations from the likes of anybody from Peirce to Heisenberg if anybody feels the need to do so. Jon Awbrey 20:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised so little is mentioned on the role of probability, in several areas:
1. Precision of measurement and importance of including it in calculations and results.
2. Weighing of the (estimated) probability of the truth of a hypothesis with the effort involved in resolving it further. Failing to do this well is one of the main hindrances to scientific progress. For example, there was a time when the vast majority of doctors chose not to spend 30 seconds washing their hands between patients because they assigned an unreasonably low probability to the validity of the microbe hypothesis, or were simply too lazy, or both. It seems a true scientist would at least be willing to try it for a few months to conduct his own experiment. We must be careful to consider ourselves part of the "enlightened age of enlightened thinking"--those doctors probably felt the same way.
3. Philosophy: nothing can be totally proven and nothing can be totally disproven (only seat-of-the-pants probabilities can be assigned) because the laws of a universe cannot be proven consistent from within that universe. Yes, we've even learned "logic" by observing our universe.
-QZ27, Aug 13, 2006
Just posting to say my first impression of a quick look through the article is a really good one, and I especially like the bit unorthodox way of merging the DNA examples into the article to exemplify the topics that could otherwise be a bit abstract. I haven't seen the method in much use in Wikipedia, but I think it works really well. :-) -- Northgrove 22:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Kenosis, I advise you to revert your removal of observation from the callout box. I understand your concern, but I point out that the author(s) of the text have been careful to introduce observation as a 'facet' of scientific method and not as an initial step. This could be clarified without removing the text on observation.
By the way, in the article 'theory ladenness' is mentioned without reference to Popper. Isn't it Popper who speaks of 'falsifying hypotheses' rather than 'falsifying facts'. And isn't it Popper who first argued that observation can't be the first step (Yeah, I know Lakatos argued the same, but I expect he got there later). Anyhow I always thought theory ladenness was Popper's baby. -- Chris 15:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This particular callout box was largely derived from the text Research Methods in Psychology (don't recall which author, there are several such texts by this title) and is presented as one of several ways scientific method is delineated or summarized. Originally it was summarized as "description", "prediction", "control (where possible and appropriate)" and "understanding", along with the three-point addition about "time-order relationships", "covariation of events" and "identification of causes to the best achievable extent". Someone has since replaced "understanding" with "falsifiability" and attached to "falsifiability" the supplementary content about increasing confidence levels in the results of a hypothesis or theory as observations are confirmed or contradicted in accordance with the research. That's Wikipedia for ya'.
As I stated in the edit summary, observation runs throughout the entire process. Please read the already existing text-- although much of it is currently lacking in explicit citations, this article has had ongoing participation by experts in the subject, including several professional scientists. The article amply describes how observation fits into the method at every stage of the process. Two paragraphs down from the second callout box is a paragraph stating that observation is inevitably "theory laden", that is, driven by the concepts one intends to pursue at any given stage of observation. An entire section is devoted to abductive reasoning, in addition to several additional mentions of the concept. A mere reference to "observation" is meaningless here-- everyone observes, including scientists, non-scientists, junk-scientists and pseudoscientists alike. What the article describes is how, in summary, scientific method involves specific kinds of observation, the relevant analysis, further focused observation, adaptation of the focus of the research, further analysis and testing, documentation of all data so others can similarly direct their testing and analysis, etc. ... Kenosis 16:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to challenge the statement that we have documented the standard scientific method. From the 'Elements...' section I quote,
If we mean 'standard' in the sense that a research body has seen fit to institutionalize this version of the method, then we should cite the standard. I have inserted the {{fact}} template. On the other hand, if we merely mean that it is standard in the sense that it is typical of how the scientific method is schematized, then it would be more accutare to say just that. -- Chris 19:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I've narrowed the statement and provided one citation for now. I should point out that this section was written with a cautious eye on the perspectives of Popper, Kuhn, Thagard, Lacatos, among others, and it generally applies irrespective of paradigm shifts, ant-colony behavior among scientists, jealous covetry of the next big breakthrough, etc. And nothing escapes Feyerabend. As Hugh Gauch put it in Scientific Method in Practice (2003), commenting on Feyerabend's sociological perspective: "Such critiques are unfamiliar to most scientists, although some may have heard a few distant shots from the so-called science wars. Scientists typically find those objections either silly or aggravating, so rather few engage such controversies or bother to contribute in a sophisticated and influential manner. But in the humanities, those deep critiques of rationality are currently quite influential. Anyway, by that reckoning, Figure 1.1 [which diagrams scientific method with a core set of principles and many specialized branches representing particular fields] should show blank paper."
In addition to the two callout boxes outlining aspects of scientific method generally, the Wikipedia article outlines a seven point description of the hypothesis/testing cycle, as follows:
If this isn't standard, I don't know what is. ... Kenosis 22:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Neelsmalan 17:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
What is science? Let us simplify and popularize our understanding of the concept 'science': Science is knowledge which was tested against a criterion.
Explanation:
1) Untested knowledge remains knowledge. 'That car is traveling fast' is my perception of the speed of a car. My perception may be 'true' of 'false' depending on, amongst other things, what is accepted as 'true' (e.g. faster that 80 kmh) as what as false.
2) Tested knowledge is scientific knowledge (according to my simple definition), but scientific knowledge is not necessarily true or valid. It is just as valid as the criterion on which it rests. Scientific knowledge is 'honest' or accountable knowledge, because you put all your cards on the table. You declare your criterion(s)/ assumption(s). 'That car is traveling fast' may rest on my assumption that the speed testing apparatus I may be using is giving a valid reading, and, secondly, that traveling above 80 kmp is accepted as fast.
3) Conclusion: We may have 'good' science as well as 'bad' science, but we should keep in mind that 'bad' science' is still science. What makes bad science bad is
a) the invalid testing of a valid criterion; b) the valid testing of an invalid criterion; or c) the invalid testing of an invalid criterion.
Am I right?
Stanislaw Ulam in his autobiography Adventures of a Mathematician recommended
Poincaré's Science and Hypothesis to all. A link to an e-print of this classic is listed in the bib. of the article. --
Ancheta Wis
21:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC) But the font of the e-print is pretty strong. Maybe it was meant to be read to a class of students in a classroom.
I've removed the following sentence from the first paragraph of the intro, for further consideration as to its accuracy and relevance in the intro. Perhaps it was an attempt to explain the concept of a theory?, which is already introduced elsewhere. Also, there were previously some concern about whether the statement "All such evidence is collectively called scientific evidence" belonged in that paragraph, so I've removed that pending a clarification on whether it's needed in the lead paragraph. ... Kenosis 16:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the large section on Peirce's theory. There does not appear to be a good reason to single him out for a special place in this article. Banno 21:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
In my interpretation www.wikinfo.org has a much more clear and succinct introduction for "scientific method":
What do you think? I think the current version of this article is needlessly wordy and has confusing sentence construction and its introduction misses the abstract essence of the scientific method. zen apprentice T 18:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "body of techniques" portrays too concrete a concept given that specific rules might vary from one field of inquiry to another. Only "core [abstract] principles" or at least less concrete "rules of thumb" can be common among something that is variable...? The first sentence of the current introduction reads like a definition which I consider to be incomplete because a key point, iteration/repetition, is not mentioned until later and mentioned insufficiently explicitly. I chose "iterative process" to hopefully convey that the process repeats forever or at least does not produce an absolute conclusion in and of itself [much confusion exists on this point]. The word "repetition" by itself to me means repeating the exact same concrete process over and over again which I consider to be incomplete/misleading, it's better to note the scientific method's repetitive nature more explicitly but also less specifically, something to the effect of: iteration is inherent in the scientific method. "Recursive" might actually work better than either "repetition" or "iterative" now that I think about it.
My primary issues with the current introduction is its phraseology, it has little passion and is difficult to parse and comprehend and seems written by committee (all over the place). Though, the current introduction is not as bad as I first thought after reading it a few more times, but I repeat it is difficult to parse, especially for someone with apparently poor or slow reading comprehension (me). Other issues with the current introduction: the word "taint" is better than the word "bias" in my interpretation, everyone has some sort of personal bias, "taint" in this context applies unambiguously to research/results, it's more important to note that research might be tainted (which indicates the research is potentially worthless). I asked why you labeled the above proposed definition the "essentialist view" because I still have no idea what that label means or how it is relevant. Now that I understand your other counter criticisms more I will try to come up with a hopefully better new compromise/superset introduction proposal soon. zen apprentice T 20:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I know that we never seem to get further than the introduction, but here's a thing. We say in the second sentence, "It is based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning." In the citation, Newton uses the work 'rules' rather than 'laws'. I notice that this is normally the case as in Descartes' Rules for the Direction of the Mind, Popper's "rule of thumb". Bacon, despite being a lawyer, calls his New Organon, "true directions concerning the interpretation of nature". I suggest we change the sentence to read "rules of reasoning". -- Chris 21:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
The scientific method is a logical, multiple step, and recursive process to expand and improve knowledge using general principles and procedures commonly including the observation of phenomenon, formulation of hypotheses, investigation, experimentation, verification and unification. Specific procedures often vary between different fields of scientific inquiry. Other principles include requiring research to be open to both refinement and independent scrutiny.
The steps of scientific method are currently our best approach to understanding, and they are rooted in our history, but it has taken the best minds of our civilization to come up with the steps. Most people can only hope to engage in only one or two of the steps at a time. Scientists work in communities and specialize in one or two of the steps themselves; since unusual people like Newton or Galileo showed the breadth and depth of comprehension to be able to engage in all the steps (see the yellow boxes), then it may help to characterize what one or two of them has done, before proposing a succinct intro paragraph. That of course limits the scope of generality of any proposed intro paragraph. -- Ancheta Wis 10:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Responding to everyone above, in my interpretation my proposed new introduction at the top of this section is better than the current introduction but since allegedly "seven" or "eight" user accounts disagree I suppose I will continue to discuss and work toward a larger consensus with more and more people. I would not characterize the current introduction's deficiencies as being merely "stylistic" but instead I interpret them to be fundamental deficiencies. Though I am not saying necessarily throw away the current introduction completely, just that the top proposal is a good first introductory paragraph (there can be more than one introductory paragraph, feel free to add on to it if you think it is incomplete). The way the current intro is written does not lead the reader onward in my interpretation and seems almost as if it was fabricated for the purpose of befuddling readers subtly. Please explain how you think the proposed new top introduction gives readers a "false impression of comprehension of comprehesiveness"? If an introduction is just a tease readers are more likely to keep reading. Note: I added the word "investigation" to the proposal at the top of this section. zen apprentice T 00:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
John Rennie wrote:
Is there anyone who has ever sought to generalize science beyond the self-imposed limitation of naturalism? That is, to extend the range of science beyond the physical, material world of nature and to explore the inner realm of thought or the spiritual world ( afterlife) spoken of by religions? -- Uncle Ed 20:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
1) One never proves the hypothesis to be true--they fail to disprove it.
2)What about mentioning the null hypothesis. In some circumstances the null hypothesis is tested to prove good research methods/techniques.
I just hacked away at the intro. We really need to keep this as simple as possible. I have tried to rewrite it in a way that is more crisp and simple. I hope this is OK. Comments welcomed. David D. (Talk) 16:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Having said that, I think that sentence should be simple and straightforward, avoiding qualifications such as "that is not to imply..." or other attempts to get excessively detailed about it. Underneath this assertion in the introduction, however it is phrased, are issues such as countering subject and observer bias (double blind studies with human subjects, but other methods must be used to minimize or eliminate other forms of observer bias), the Hawthorne effect (if it in fact exists), fudging of data (called fraud but under the same rubrick of non-objectivity), junk science (not quite fraud, but involving experimental designs and interpretations designed to make one's backers willing to hire you again), etc. Whatever it is that is said should be said very quickly and move right on to quickly touching the next necessary basic introductory point. ... Kenosis 21:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand that such wholesale changes to an introduction are likely to rock the boat but i thought that giving you a complete version of where i think the introduction should be heading might be a good start before arguing individual points. I disagree that a stable introduction represents the best introduction. The first time I edited this page the introduction was monstrous and jargon heavy to the point it made it hard to comprehend without rereading two or three times. I believe that version had been quite stable too. While this introduction is much better, in my opinion there is still room for improvement.
Here is one specific point with respect to the second paragraph: Present version:
Proposed version:
First, what is the point of this sentence? I think it is that "there are common features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of inquiry".
I removed the bold text since it was not clear that it is important with regard to this point and may actually impede comprehension. For example, does field of inquiry refer to scientific fields of inquiry only, or does it have a broader meaning to include other methods of developing knowledge too? As currently written, this could be taken either way. If it refers to 'scientific inquiry only' (which I think is the case), then it appears to be unnecessary with respect to the point being made. Why is it necessary to discuss that the specialized procedures vary? This seems to be unrelated to the take home point of the sentence.
With respect to the word identifiable. What does this add to the content? Wouldn't any feature be identifiable by definition? This word seems redundant in the current context. I favor removing such words since they distract from the point being made. i have other comments but lets start with this sentence. David D. (Talk) 21:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, the reason for the wording of that sentence is to account for the demarcation problem identified both above and below on this talk page. Popper, Thagard, Kuhn, Lakatos and others made attempts at it, and it turns out that scientific method has wide differences in what is considered acceptable method, depending on field of inquiry. Nonetheless, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific method from other forms of inquiry. There was a reason for the inclusion of the words "[A]lthough specialized procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another," which was to state the point consistently with the fact that the acceptable method(s) can vary from one field to another. This is, of course, substantially why many commentators and educators have advocated avoiding the use of the word "the" attached to the words "scientific method". ... Kenosis 02:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
First I want to thank Banno for his recent edits which I believe were an improvement. It's only a shame that the demarcation section had to go, although I understand why it had to. A lot of work is required on the demarcation article itself. Once things start to shape up there, maybe we can re-introduce the section. -- Chris 20:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I've just reverted an anon user's contrubution from the intro, specifically one which replaced the longstanding second paragraph of the lead ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scientific_method&diff=84756426&oldid=84514984 implemented here). Because it appears to be an explanation that could be of potential future value in the future, I'm placing it immediately below for futher reference. The removed material is as follows: ... Kenosis 04:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised that this is not a featured article yet. What's the holdup? Sr13 07:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
These ideas were skipped over by Isaac Newton with, "I do not define time, space, place and motion, as being well known to all."
This is not right. He doesn't skip over them. Newton is saying that he is not defining what is popularly understood as these things and immediately goes on to define each of them in detail in absolute and relative terms. The text is at http://pratt.edu/~arch543p/readings/Newton.html
-Pepper 150.203.227.130 05:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I made some changes to the first 3 paras. I find that in most of this,that too much the "results of" and/or "the management of" science, it's experiments and it' "useful paradigms and expectations" (e.g. that hypotheses will get broader, more accurate, etc., or that they must be made by the "rules of logic" which themselves have yet to have a fully acceptable foundation, as is the same with math, that measurement is indirect "obervations usually based on a theory", etc., etc., is all only an observation that hypotheses agglomerate into theories, that these so very often are expressed in math terms, that so much of physics can be based on Lagrangians, etc., etc. I vote to keep it to the bare 3 steps. Any more is as yet untested, unhypothesized "observations" on our proceedings to date with the three steps. We may call much of it meta scientific method or emerging philosophy and separate, but not all that is put forth here is really needed, or I believe really is in sci meth. 129.24.141.64 23:32, 25 November 2006 LekLiberty
I did not know that laughter (hahahaha), which I have never done before, explained the scientific method. Hey everyone! Laughter is the best way to solve and conduct an experiment! 67.86.24.40 00:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
1. Experiment is part of "Observation" and/of of "Testing of Hypotheses" which is part of SM. Experimentless observation/testing is possible and allowed, required some might say when a discipline is very new, cuz at that time there is not enuf "known" to even think of hypothesizing or testing! So Experimentation is not the top level part of the SM definition; Observation and/or Testing is and they includes Experimentation as subsets. 2. The problem mentioned is better stated "there is a problem with desining experiments without a Hypothesis in mind". And research is a synonym for either SM or literature review/search! 3. The research is necessarily in the hands of the researchers, with errors, ignorance and even game playing if "so unethical". Replication of any of the three steps of SM I suggest is it's definition, Observation, Hypothesis and Test, catches all these: errors, ignorance and even game playing and unethical practices. LekLibertyLekLiberty
To Wjbeaty and anyone else out there:---
How do you define, and get a list of cooperating members for us to querry, experts in science, without a definition of science? And how do you get them without a definition, and get a list of cooperating cooperating memebers for us to query, of experts? This progression is essentially an infinite regression and won't terminate.
Agree, getting a definition of SM gets us to a definition of science. Still I submit the majority of practitioners (experts if you must) will ultimately agree that the SM is only the Three Steps of Observe, Hypothesize, and Test. All other suggested components are essenially only management and dissemination and "commercialization", I submit!
There will be discussion, because, today there are few Renaissance science experts to get at due to extreme specialization. And there will be a need to distinguish the active practice of science, the verb, and the body of knowledge that presently considered true (which only means it has not yet been disproved), the noun(s).
I'd like to see my definition presented to your experts, etc., cuz I think most all of the stuff I've read misses the mark. And in so doing, ya'll are allowong the very distortions you speak of to exist and procreate. And, some of that will get to less than expert in science funders who will then waste and abuse.
I don't want the job of "expert", but neither can I claim ignorance and unfamiliarity. FYI, and not to be bragging, or one upsmanshipping in any way, I've got 30+ years in RDT&E, Academia, Industry, Gov't Scientific Advisor positions, and BA, BS, MS, PH.D., post doc, and secondary ed theough grad school teaching on all this. I really fear for it being "gotten wrong".
Please advise me how I can get "reviewed", "critiqued", etc.---LekLiberty 1/4/07
This article seems very theoretical: is there data showing to what extent the scientific method is actually used by actual, practicing scientists or by non professional scientists ?
Do you really mean theoretical or are you meaning abstract and still not understandable? It's an important distinction for those of us who are trying to get it all right. The street English expressions along the lines of "the thoretical" verses "the practical" have no use in this effort and may be part of where you are coming from. If so, don't worry, you have much company, and if ever we converge to an agreed definition of the "Scintific Method" and "Science", hopefully it will become more clear.
If there is no DATA to show that scientists use the SM described in the article, then the SM is in and of itself, non scientific - not quite sure how to deal with the sort of recursive questions that this raises. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.60.137.141 ( talk) 02:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
Answers for some of what you ask otherwise, follows: Theory is another name for a hypothesis or the collection of hypotheses in some domain of discussion, in the scientific method. Theories are tested by experiments, observations, and predictions of the theory that are tested in the same manner. Data is that which is observed. It is the result of the second step of the scientific method of Observe, Hypothesize, Test which I am advocating in some of the above. For an article along the lines you request I suggest: Lightman, Alan, "Moments of Truth", page 36, New Scientist, 19 November 2005. 129.24.141.152 23:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)LekLiberty
I've made some comments on Scientific Method and Peer Review in these discusssion sections and have read it all. In my opinion, and I am a practicing "scientist", and I don't think what we have here is "correct" or shows any sign of "converging to anything" near to correct. FYI on my "concerns" are that I see the base SM missed and over defined, and added to it a bunch of subsidiary issues such as propagation of "results", management of SM activities, validation "types" for SM, old historical views from the early days when it was part of "natural philosophy", and such that is basicly confused and confusing to "students and teachers" (cuz they took me to task and told me so!!)
I suggest that if you guys need to get your "verifiable" needs met and get "practitioners of science and peer review" definitions, that you/we ask for them from: scientists, scientific organizations, science funding agencies, and the same types for history of science sources, philosophy of science sources, and any others you feel you need for your verifialbility requirements. I do feel it's presently wrong enuf to worry about. I suggest you start as Wipepedians "formally requesting inputs" and would suggest you start with the Society of Sigma Xi, which is "the" non-denominational honorary science society. Their publication "American Scientist" would I'm sure receive a letter along these lines and probably publish it in one of their publications. I am a memeber, and would do it for you; but, I think the "formal Wikepedia", whoever/whatever that is, should do it!! LekLiberty
Regarding the history article, it might be worth mentioning that I've been trying to find the original source of the common scientific method. I mean the one with a small number of steps: 1) Observe, 2) Develop hypothesis, 3) Bake for 15 minutes, 4) Serve with a selection of vegetables. Or whatever it was now. Any leads? -- ChrisSteinbach 22:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)