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As principle filming is confirmed as having commenced, [1] the topic meets our primary notability criteria, [2] and as policy specifcally allows that it "is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced", it has been requested that this article be re-evaluated and considered for return to mainspace under WP:FFEXCEPTIONS.
The contentions here are that since incubation, the coverage of the topic of Saving Mr. Banks is proving itself enduring and persistent in multiple reliable sources and over an extended period (thus dealing with violations of WP:NOTNEWS) and there is too much verifiable information in an article (whose topic is "discussion about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur") to be reasonably placed anywhere else as no suitable merge or redirect target exists. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Article incubation assessment
99.45.57.226 posted this comment on 16 December 2013 ( view all feedback).
I am looking for information on the book that "Saving Mr. Banks" was based on.
Any thoughts?
The film is not derived from a book, hence there would be no information on such a book in the article. It was, however, initially inspired by a documentary which is mention in the first paragraph of the production section. ∆ nbmatt 23:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
While not based on them per se, the film does acknowledge Mary Poppins, She Wrote: The Life of P.L. Travers by Valerie Lawson and Moose by Robert B. Sherman. Trivialist ( talk) 23:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
I am surprised there is no mention at all of the New Yorker magazine articles about "Poppins". Although I do not know if the films used them as references, the articles surely must be germane to the subject:
Becoming Mary Poppins P. L. Travers, Walt Disney, and the making of a myth. By Caitlin Flanagan
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/12/19/becoming-mary-poppins
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1962/10/20/mary-poppins — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.173.78 ( talk) 18:58, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
I've removed these recent additions because they fail to provide any encyclopedic analysis whatsoever. They are simply a list of real-life events that don't attempt to connect to their portrayal of events shown on-screen—therefore they don't prove or disprove anything. In addition, many of these claims are actually incorrect in labeling the film's events as inaccurate for the following reasons;
The film depicts Travers coming to terms with Disney's changes to her story and appreciating the film version of Mary Poppins. In reality, she continued to disapprove of the dilution of the harsher aspects of Mary Poppins' character, felt ambivalent about the music, and so hated the use of animation that she ruled out any further adaptations of the later Mary Poppins novels.
Disney overruled her objections, citing contract stipulations that he had final say on the finished print.
At the film's premiere, which she wasn't invited to and had to confront a producer to be allowed to go, Travers reportedly approached Disney and told him that the animated sequence had to go.
Enraged at what she considered shabby treatment at Disney's hands, Travers would never again agree to another Poppins/Disney adaptation.
So fervent was Travers' dislike of the Disney adaptation and of the way she felt she had been treated during the production, that when producer Cameron Mackintosh approached her about the stage musical when she was into her 90s, she acquiesced on the condition that no one from the film production were to be directly involved with creating the stage musical.
~ Jedi94 ( Want to tell me something?) 19:48, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
To avoid further reverts, I say we reach a final consensus on where to place the historical accuracy section. Per WP:FILMHIST, such information would either be a part of the Production or Reception sections, or as its own independent section. Since the information isn't too vast (compared to that of Argo's), I suggest that we place it as a subsection of the either two aforementioned sections, preferably the Reception section, since the information exists as a critical analysis by critics and historians in response to the film. What does everyone else say on the matter? ~ Jedi94 ( Want to tell me something?) 17:58, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't have any strong preference about its placement, as the section is fairly self-contained. The inaccuracies prompted commentary from several critics, but it also describes real life and fictional events; and it's also directly related to the elements included in the film's plot, although it doesn't contain just plot elements; so both options are sensible, and both have problems. I think a good compromise is Favre1fan93's suggestion to place it in the Production section, which is not too high nor too down in the article. Being a biopic, choosing what to include in the script and how much embellishment to provide is a crucial factor of the film making process. Diego ( talk) 21:52, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I am happy with how it is now. Right after plot, in a separate section is a good option as it does directly relate to story-related accuracy more than any other kind as it compares how the events depicted actually happened in real life which are fresh in their mind as they've just read the plot. e.g. in the Lawrence of Arabia article - Historical accuracy section follows the cast list as it's mostly related to depictions of the characters.
I would be opposed to a move to within the reception section as I think that for this film it should be reserved for box office, critical reception and awards.
An alternative, I would be happy is if it were put between production and release in a separate section like the 12 Years a Slave article.
Cowlibob (
talk)
17:35, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
With other showbiz-based films based on or relating to real people that I've edited (
Dreamgirls,
The Temptations,
Ray,
What's Love Got to Do with It), the section covering where the film deviates from the factual record (or, in the case of Dreamgirls, ostensibly a work of purer fiction, where it repurposes the factual record in a different context) is near or after Production, as it involves the confluence of writing, directing, acting ,and editing to reach the final result. I have never seen it immediately following plot, and it is clear (also based on a number of edits of my own specifically talking about how things were changed and why slipping out of the article line by line) that it has to do with a bias towards Travers and against Disney/Walt Disney, the concept being that, as a Disney production, it's attempting to rewrite history by itself being biased _against_ Travers and _for_ Disney. I don't think it's a mistake that you read "this film is inaccurate because x, y, and z" before you read the production and development history.
Let it first be said that any narrative film based on a true story is a work of historical fiction: dialogue, settings, situations, characters, etc. are always made up to suit the tone and flow of the film, not reality. Second, the filmmakers were fairly transparent in multiple interviews about what is factual, what is invented, and what is adapted (for example, it is noted that Walt Disney departed for Palm Springs a few days after P.L. Travers arrived - following their trip to Disneyland, which happened first and happened so that Travers could do a paid book-reading engagement), and much of the Travers/Disney dialogue in the film is based on letters and telegrams, not face-to-face conversation. The filmmakers were also transparent about the only content edict Disney (the company) made involving the film (as noted i nthe article, the script was developed outside of Disney and placed on The Blacklist website reporting high-rated unproduced screenplays in 2011) - Walt Disney cannot be shown on-camera smoking, a studio policy against onscreen smoking characters initiated by Roy E. Disney several years before.
Finally, the fact that the film differs from the actual events has no bearing on the plot of the film itself. Look where this section is in an article I did no writing on, American Hustle - it's further down the page than it ought to be, but certainly nowhere near Plot, as it should not be anywhere near plot. Whatever, then, is going on here? -- FuriousFreddy ( talk) 01:24, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Enough. I find it incredibly puzzling that this issue has not been laid to rest. Despite 96.253.65.178's claims, there has already been an outright consensus as to where the "Historical accuracy" section should be placed; as a subsection of the production section. In fact, this entire discussion was only started in the first place as an attempt to reach a consensus. All of the active editors in the discussion (including myself, Diego, and FuriousFreddy), as well as past contributors ( Favre1fan93, GdGourou, and Epicgenius) have agreed (or at the very least, compromised) that the most appropriate and ideal location for the information is in the production section. The IP editor is the only one against and has so far failed to provide any concrete rationale against the move, and instead has continued to filibuster the idea that it belongs in the plot section because of its relevance. The consensus, in fact, has become so clear that there has even been a tertiary editor ( Mark Miller) who analyzed the whole conflict and concluded that there was already an outright consensus present, and that any further reverts from the IP editor would be treated as even more edit warring. Once again, consensus has been reached and this discussion should be over and done with.
96.253.65.178, I suggest (if you haven't already done so) that you please go and completely read Mark's reasoning as to why your logic was mistaken. Also, please be advised that—per Mark's previous suggestions—we will enforce WP:ANI on the article, if you continue to go against consensus and/or revert any edits related to this issue. ~ Jedi94 ( Want to tell me something?) 02:52, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
User 96.253.65.178 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS), you can't insert your opinion on what Travers' "true feelings" were in the article. Speaking of contradiction, we have a reliable source stating that "the only person who could verify that died in 1996". If you want to bring in the idea that Travers disliked all of the film, all of the time, good; but do so by quoting a source that makes that same point, not by imposing your own words in the text. I think it's very clear in context that Travers wasn't thrilled by the premiere; no need to distort the sources or write in pointy style to right a wrong. Diego ( talk) 10:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
We have a conflict between this article and P.L. Traver's article. In this one, it says, "Travers' last will, in fact, bans any Americans from adapting her works to any form of media." In Travers's article it says, "she acquiesced on the condition that only English-born writers and no one from the film production were to be directly involved with creating the stage musical. Contrary to popular belief these points were not stipulated in her last will and testament. A section in her will (section 5-c) directs the trustees to follow her wishes regarding exploitation of her literary estate, but these wishes have not been made public." Both statements are sourced but both cannot be accurate. 2001:5B0:26FF:2EF0:0:0:0:38 ( talk) 01:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Walt Disney was depicted at least once before in a mainstream film, Once Upon a Time. Disney is shown from the rear, talking on the telephone, but we hear his voice, which bears no resemblance whatever to the real Disney's voice. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 21:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I have some observations and questions about the plot section.
The salient point (to me, anyhow) that Travers only finally agreed to discuss a film adaptation when she was out of money and risked losing her home. Therefore, she was at Disney Studios almost against her will, practically under duress, and so was a hostile participant from the start. (Her home represented a stable anchor for her that her childhood lacked, but that is my OR. .^_^. )
There are instances of awkward wording.
There's not a single inline citation. Some of the interpretations are personal interpretations, unless they come from extra content added to a disk or in a printed source. If that's the case, then citations are mandatory clarifications. There are also what appears to be cases of original research and synthesis.
I'm sure there are more examples, but I'm tired. Good night everybody, Wordreader ( talk) 05:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi all. I wanted to work Travers' final line in the movie "No, no. It’s just that-- I can’t, I can’t abide cartoons!" into the article. I feel it would make the historical innacuacies section clearer and, well, more accurate, if we say that the movie attempted to address her anger at the final product in this way. However, as currently written and sourced, I couldn't find a good place for it. Any suggestions?-- Once in a Blue Moon ( talk) 14:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
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Saving Mr. Banks has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Saving Mr. Banks article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
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As principle filming is confirmed as having commenced, [1] the topic meets our primary notability criteria, [2] and as policy specifcally allows that it "is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced", it has been requested that this article be re-evaluated and considered for return to mainspace under WP:FFEXCEPTIONS.
The contentions here are that since incubation, the coverage of the topic of Saving Mr. Banks is proving itself enduring and persistent in multiple reliable sources and over an extended period (thus dealing with violations of WP:NOTNEWS) and there is too much verifiable information in an article (whose topic is "discussion about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur") to be reasonably placed anywhere else as no suitable merge or redirect target exists. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Article incubation assessment
99.45.57.226 posted this comment on 16 December 2013 ( view all feedback).
I am looking for information on the book that "Saving Mr. Banks" was based on.
Any thoughts?
The film is not derived from a book, hence there would be no information on such a book in the article. It was, however, initially inspired by a documentary which is mention in the first paragraph of the production section. ∆ nbmatt 23:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
While not based on them per se, the film does acknowledge Mary Poppins, She Wrote: The Life of P.L. Travers by Valerie Lawson and Moose by Robert B. Sherman. Trivialist ( talk) 23:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
I am surprised there is no mention at all of the New Yorker magazine articles about "Poppins". Although I do not know if the films used them as references, the articles surely must be germane to the subject:
Becoming Mary Poppins P. L. Travers, Walt Disney, and the making of a myth. By Caitlin Flanagan
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/12/19/becoming-mary-poppins
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1962/10/20/mary-poppins — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.173.78 ( talk) 18:58, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
I've removed these recent additions because they fail to provide any encyclopedic analysis whatsoever. They are simply a list of real-life events that don't attempt to connect to their portrayal of events shown on-screen—therefore they don't prove or disprove anything. In addition, many of these claims are actually incorrect in labeling the film's events as inaccurate for the following reasons;
The film depicts Travers coming to terms with Disney's changes to her story and appreciating the film version of Mary Poppins. In reality, she continued to disapprove of the dilution of the harsher aspects of Mary Poppins' character, felt ambivalent about the music, and so hated the use of animation that she ruled out any further adaptations of the later Mary Poppins novels.
Disney overruled her objections, citing contract stipulations that he had final say on the finished print.
At the film's premiere, which she wasn't invited to and had to confront a producer to be allowed to go, Travers reportedly approached Disney and told him that the animated sequence had to go.
Enraged at what she considered shabby treatment at Disney's hands, Travers would never again agree to another Poppins/Disney adaptation.
So fervent was Travers' dislike of the Disney adaptation and of the way she felt she had been treated during the production, that when producer Cameron Mackintosh approached her about the stage musical when she was into her 90s, she acquiesced on the condition that no one from the film production were to be directly involved with creating the stage musical.
~ Jedi94 ( Want to tell me something?) 19:48, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
To avoid further reverts, I say we reach a final consensus on where to place the historical accuracy section. Per WP:FILMHIST, such information would either be a part of the Production or Reception sections, or as its own independent section. Since the information isn't too vast (compared to that of Argo's), I suggest that we place it as a subsection of the either two aforementioned sections, preferably the Reception section, since the information exists as a critical analysis by critics and historians in response to the film. What does everyone else say on the matter? ~ Jedi94 ( Want to tell me something?) 17:58, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't have any strong preference about its placement, as the section is fairly self-contained. The inaccuracies prompted commentary from several critics, but it also describes real life and fictional events; and it's also directly related to the elements included in the film's plot, although it doesn't contain just plot elements; so both options are sensible, and both have problems. I think a good compromise is Favre1fan93's suggestion to place it in the Production section, which is not too high nor too down in the article. Being a biopic, choosing what to include in the script and how much embellishment to provide is a crucial factor of the film making process. Diego ( talk) 21:52, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I am happy with how it is now. Right after plot, in a separate section is a good option as it does directly relate to story-related accuracy more than any other kind as it compares how the events depicted actually happened in real life which are fresh in their mind as they've just read the plot. e.g. in the Lawrence of Arabia article - Historical accuracy section follows the cast list as it's mostly related to depictions of the characters.
I would be opposed to a move to within the reception section as I think that for this film it should be reserved for box office, critical reception and awards.
An alternative, I would be happy is if it were put between production and release in a separate section like the 12 Years a Slave article.
Cowlibob (
talk)
17:35, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
With other showbiz-based films based on or relating to real people that I've edited (
Dreamgirls,
The Temptations,
Ray,
What's Love Got to Do with It), the section covering where the film deviates from the factual record (or, in the case of Dreamgirls, ostensibly a work of purer fiction, where it repurposes the factual record in a different context) is near or after Production, as it involves the confluence of writing, directing, acting ,and editing to reach the final result. I have never seen it immediately following plot, and it is clear (also based on a number of edits of my own specifically talking about how things were changed and why slipping out of the article line by line) that it has to do with a bias towards Travers and against Disney/Walt Disney, the concept being that, as a Disney production, it's attempting to rewrite history by itself being biased _against_ Travers and _for_ Disney. I don't think it's a mistake that you read "this film is inaccurate because x, y, and z" before you read the production and development history.
Let it first be said that any narrative film based on a true story is a work of historical fiction: dialogue, settings, situations, characters, etc. are always made up to suit the tone and flow of the film, not reality. Second, the filmmakers were fairly transparent in multiple interviews about what is factual, what is invented, and what is adapted (for example, it is noted that Walt Disney departed for Palm Springs a few days after P.L. Travers arrived - following their trip to Disneyland, which happened first and happened so that Travers could do a paid book-reading engagement), and much of the Travers/Disney dialogue in the film is based on letters and telegrams, not face-to-face conversation. The filmmakers were also transparent about the only content edict Disney (the company) made involving the film (as noted i nthe article, the script was developed outside of Disney and placed on The Blacklist website reporting high-rated unproduced screenplays in 2011) - Walt Disney cannot be shown on-camera smoking, a studio policy against onscreen smoking characters initiated by Roy E. Disney several years before.
Finally, the fact that the film differs from the actual events has no bearing on the plot of the film itself. Look where this section is in an article I did no writing on, American Hustle - it's further down the page than it ought to be, but certainly nowhere near Plot, as it should not be anywhere near plot. Whatever, then, is going on here? -- FuriousFreddy ( talk) 01:24, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Enough. I find it incredibly puzzling that this issue has not been laid to rest. Despite 96.253.65.178's claims, there has already been an outright consensus as to where the "Historical accuracy" section should be placed; as a subsection of the production section. In fact, this entire discussion was only started in the first place as an attempt to reach a consensus. All of the active editors in the discussion (including myself, Diego, and FuriousFreddy), as well as past contributors ( Favre1fan93, GdGourou, and Epicgenius) have agreed (or at the very least, compromised) that the most appropriate and ideal location for the information is in the production section. The IP editor is the only one against and has so far failed to provide any concrete rationale against the move, and instead has continued to filibuster the idea that it belongs in the plot section because of its relevance. The consensus, in fact, has become so clear that there has even been a tertiary editor ( Mark Miller) who analyzed the whole conflict and concluded that there was already an outright consensus present, and that any further reverts from the IP editor would be treated as even more edit warring. Once again, consensus has been reached and this discussion should be over and done with.
96.253.65.178, I suggest (if you haven't already done so) that you please go and completely read Mark's reasoning as to why your logic was mistaken. Also, please be advised that—per Mark's previous suggestions—we will enforce WP:ANI on the article, if you continue to go against consensus and/or revert any edits related to this issue. ~ Jedi94 ( Want to tell me something?) 02:52, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
User 96.253.65.178 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS), you can't insert your opinion on what Travers' "true feelings" were in the article. Speaking of contradiction, we have a reliable source stating that "the only person who could verify that died in 1996". If you want to bring in the idea that Travers disliked all of the film, all of the time, good; but do so by quoting a source that makes that same point, not by imposing your own words in the text. I think it's very clear in context that Travers wasn't thrilled by the premiere; no need to distort the sources or write in pointy style to right a wrong. Diego ( talk) 10:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
We have a conflict between this article and P.L. Traver's article. In this one, it says, "Travers' last will, in fact, bans any Americans from adapting her works to any form of media." In Travers's article it says, "she acquiesced on the condition that only English-born writers and no one from the film production were to be directly involved with creating the stage musical. Contrary to popular belief these points were not stipulated in her last will and testament. A section in her will (section 5-c) directs the trustees to follow her wishes regarding exploitation of her literary estate, but these wishes have not been made public." Both statements are sourced but both cannot be accurate. 2001:5B0:26FF:2EF0:0:0:0:38 ( talk) 01:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Walt Disney was depicted at least once before in a mainstream film, Once Upon a Time. Disney is shown from the rear, talking on the telephone, but we hear his voice, which bears no resemblance whatever to the real Disney's voice. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 21:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I have some observations and questions about the plot section.
The salient point (to me, anyhow) that Travers only finally agreed to discuss a film adaptation when she was out of money and risked losing her home. Therefore, she was at Disney Studios almost against her will, practically under duress, and so was a hostile participant from the start. (Her home represented a stable anchor for her that her childhood lacked, but that is my OR. .^_^. )
There are instances of awkward wording.
There's not a single inline citation. Some of the interpretations are personal interpretations, unless they come from extra content added to a disk or in a printed source. If that's the case, then citations are mandatory clarifications. There are also what appears to be cases of original research and synthesis.
I'm sure there are more examples, but I'm tired. Good night everybody, Wordreader ( talk) 05:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi all. I wanted to work Travers' final line in the movie "No, no. It’s just that-- I can’t, I can’t abide cartoons!" into the article. I feel it would make the historical innacuacies section clearer and, well, more accurate, if we say that the movie attempted to address her anger at the final product in this way. However, as currently written and sourced, I couldn't find a good place for it. Any suggestions?-- Once in a Blue Moon ( talk) 14:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
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