This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | → | Archive 50 |
Gallup is showing [1] Palin as the world's second-most admired woman by Americans, behind Hillary Clinton and ahead of Oprah Winfrey. Is this notable enough for inclusion, and, if so, should it go here, in the "Public image and reception" subarticle, or both. Cheers - Kelly hi! 17:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that the "public image" section includes basically every self-described Republican that has criticized Palin - even such non-entities as
Kathleen Parker, who probably 1% of Americans have never ever heard of. However, the only Republican described as praising her in this section is
Bill Kristol, a noted neocon. It's pretty easy to dig up statements from other conservatives who praise her in print - ranging from
Rush Limbaugh to
Mark Steyn to
Fred Thompson to
Byron York, and even praise from liberals and feminists -
Lynn Forester de Rothschild,
Camille Paglia, and
Elaine Lafferty come to mind.
How should we handle this - trim back the "conservative" criticism section, beef up the praise section, both, or eliminate both altogether? Kelly hi! 21:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Just curious about how we should handle this article going forward, post-election...looking at the discussion above, the Campaign '08 rhetoric seems to be going full swing. However, we've got some new notable information happening since the election, and I'm wondering how we should structure this article as a result. Some of the information undoubtedly belongs in the "Governorship" section and/or subarticle (like the rollout of her comprehensive energy plan for Alaska), but other things are not directly related to her governorship...for instance, Saxby Chambliss credited her as a significant factor in his Senate runoff victory [2], Human Events named her Conservative of the Year [3], and she's been invited to speak at the Conservative Political Action Conference [4]. Assuming the info is notable enough for inclusion, where should we place it? Kelly hi! 16:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Kelly, if you can incorporate the Conservative of the Year and CPAC appearance in the article here, I suggest this is the appropriate place. The Chambliss content IMO is more appropriat3ely kept on his article. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Consensus
Three guidelines from
WP:ETIQUETTE aka
WP:EQ are particularly useful:
'Do not'. Not, 'it is best not to', or 'it is good to respond to questions', or, 'responding to questions is part of the process'. Do Not.
In other words, respond to responses.
And that doesn't mean, respond to some relatively unimportant aspect related to it, nor does it mean, respond with a new issue, it means, aid the process of definition of the consensus by defining the boundaries of your argument. Faced with these guidelines being ignored, go to arbitration. This is intended to focus attention on these three rules, as key to beginning a consensus-building process. It is not intended to focus attention away from other rules such as WP:NPA or WP:AGF.
Additions?
Can we please try to use this page for discussing how to improve the article rather than just linking to garbage (see above)? Also the single purpose trolls still seem to be out in force here. Oh well, -- Tom 18:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I will continue to remove the POV pushing essay crap which is being posted here as vandalism, and will start blocking vandals if you do not cease. Puppy has spoken; puppy is in no mood to tolerate this crap. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Whether you agree with the comments in question or not, they seemed to be posted as a good faith attempt to improve the article, as opposed to the obvious attempts at vandalism. Jimmuldrow ( talk) 00:28, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) What was posted here was in no way a suggestion for improving the article. It was links, with very long excerpts, to opinion pieces. If someone has a suggestion for article improvement, we all welcome it. Make it concise, please, and make it clear. Do not edit war when a long post with no reference to the article is removed from an article talk page; this is appropriate and I will continue to do it if it happens again. I play no favorites (Well ok, Bishonen and Giano and a few other editors will virtually always get my support but that's because they write too damn well to disagree with) and have little patience for WP:TE. I also keep no grudges, so shall we move along now? I for one am past done with this; it is a closed subject, or should be. Enough bits have been wasted on it. KillerChihuahua ?!? 03:49, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. KillerChihuahua ?!? 21:31, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
All of the below changes up to 'Public image section' were originally added to the main article in my edit of 22nd Dec 08 at 1:25 although earlier versions of the kit material and the Critters material were added on 19 Dec 08 at 21:07 and 21:09 respectively. As the kit material summary says, the Palin quote itself had been in the article before that, in and out since September, as I recall, but I haven't checked lately.
An early proponent, and as far back as I have checked, the originator of the idea of including some reference to the questions that Palin was asked was [ http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sarah_Palin&diff=249463399&oldid=249462526 Factcheckeratyourservice on 3 Nov.
Editor Coemgenus was the originator of the Stambaugh-mentioned-SB177 material on Nov 3, although not in this form, and he removed the Palin quote and replaced it with the
negative proof fallacy mentioned below. One step forward, one step back. He also removed the Obama-Meyers material, which had remained for quite a long time, right up until election day.
I have changed my position on the Stambaugh-mentioned-SB177 issue considerably. From what I can tell, everyone including myself were reading the
bill wrongly; making this text a perfect case of not only why primary sources are considered a problem, but also why they are not banned outright. They are extremely easy to misuse (our error) and yet they can be, as in this case, the most reliable source of information if they are used properly. To clarify the error: The underlined text is deleted from AS whatever it was, and the CAPITAL LETTERS text is what is added. SB177 turns out to be a much different bill than anyone was representing it as, including Stambaugh and Knowles. Whether that was due to perfidy or lack of knowledge, I wonder if we'll ever know. In Stambaugh's case, I doubt very much if it was perfidy; he had every opportunity to misunderstand the bill, as he didn't even have access to the information we have, and he was just a small town cop. It may well have been misrepresented during the debate. Now I can bet you think that that means we should automatically discard this sentence. I contend that is not so, although this does complicate the issue so much that we may have to. SB177 wasn't a gun bill that would have allowed guns in schools. There's that. But neither was it legislation that prohibited guns in schools;
my initial edit was to replace a sentence saying that, with the sentence saying it allowed guns in colleges, which was also wrong, as they had always been allowed in colleges, before SB177, and weren't allowed by SB177, and for all I know, are still allowed. Stambaugh believed SB177 to be gun control legislation that would have allowed guns in schools, he reported as such in every interview that brought the subject up, and for all we know, Palin believed it to be so, but we can't rely on that in any way. Stambaugh is reported in various news sources, and this is reflected, although not confirmed, in the Alaska Legislature's own record of Tony Knowles' veto, as having objected to Knowles about SB177, leading to Knowles' veto. Palin had been supported by the NRA since early in her career, and you better believe they knew about the veto, and possibly who influenced Knowles to veto. We can't prove that yet.
So I dunno. Include or not, revamp, whatever, we'll see. I thought I ought to give the whole story though.
Propose adding this to the First term section, and preferably make separate subheadings within that section per Mayoralty of Sarah Palin Palin appointed<ref name="WasMuniCode">{{cite web|title=Wasilla municipal code|url=http://www.codepublishing.com/AK/Wasilla/Wasilla02/Wasilla0216.html|accessdate=22 Dec 08}}sections 2.16.020 & 2.16.040</ref> [[Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#Police matters|Charles Fannon]] to replace Irl Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon's department charged the cost of sexual assault evidence collection kits to the victims;<ref name="Fquote">{{cite web|url=http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt |title=Knowles signs sexual assault bill |publisher=Frontiersman |first=Jo C. |last=Goode |date=May 23, 2000 |accessdate=2008-11-09}}""In the past we've charged the cost of exams to the victims insurance company when possible. I just don't want to see any more burden put on the taxpayer", Fannon said. According to Fannon, the new law will cost the Wasilla Police Department approximately $5,000 to $14,000 a year to collect evidence for sexual assault cases." -Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman</ref><ref name="CNNCharge">{{cite news|title=Palin's town charged women for rape exams|url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/21/palin.rape.exams/index.html|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=22 Sep 08|accessdate=22 Dec 08}}includes link to video: "Multiple sources tell CNN...her police department charged some rape victims the cost of the forensic exam..."</ref> he opposed a 2001 state law requiring police departments to pay for the kits.<ref name="Fquote"/> Palin, who was responsible for creating and overseeing the budget,<ref name="WasMuniCode"/> cut funds to the "Contractual Services" line item for the kits;<ref name="Budget"/> Stambaugh said he had included the line item to cover the kits when he was police chief under Stein.<ref name="CNNCharge"/><ref name="Budget">{{cite news|title=New Evidence: Palin Had Direct Role In Charging Rape Victims For Exams|url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jacob-alperinsheriff/sarah-palin-instituted-ra_b_125833.html|author=Jacob Alperin-Sheriff|publisher=Huffington Post|date=September 11, 2008 08:30 PM (EST)|accessdate=Dec 22 08}} The exam kits, and other "Contractual Services", including removing snow from the nearby airport runway, were allocated an average of $2,600 for the years 1998-2001, compared with $3000 for the previous four years. Includes link to budget PDF; line item-page 42.</ref><blockquote>Frontiersman: During your tenure as Mayor, what was the police department and city’s standard operating procedure in recovering costs of rape kits? Were any sexual assault victims ever charged for this testing while you were mayor?"<br>Sarah Palin: "The entire notion of making a victim of a crime pay for anything is crazy. I do not believe, nor have I ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test. As governor, I worked in a variety of ways to tackle the problem of sexual assault and rape, including making domestic violence a priority of my administration."<br> - Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman, September 30, 2008<ref>{{cite web|url=http://frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/30/breaking_news/doc48e1e1294d418713321438.txt|title=FRONTIERSMAN EXCLUSIVE: Palin responds to questions|publisher|Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman|date=Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:39 AM AKDT|access=3rd Dec, 08}}</ref></blockquote> The above text to replace the current version below: Palin appointed<ref name="WasMuniCode"/> [[Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#Police matters|Charles Fannon]] to replace Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon later publicly opposed new legislation preventing police departments from billing adult rape victims or their health insurance for evidence collection kits,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt |title=Knowles signs sexual assault bill |publisher=Frontiersman |first=Jo C. |last=Goode |date=May 23, 2000 |accessdate=2008-11-09}}</ref> stating that the Wasilla police had sometimes billed victims' health insurance in the past. An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy. Note that the current version ends with a sentence that, as it is not cited, is currently unverifiable. Note also that it in fact can never be verified, even by a citation, as it is a near-perfect example of a negative proof fallacy.
My edit changed the material above in a way such that the below comments on my previous edit may seem out of place. This was caused by me editing during the time that the below comments were added, resulting in an edit conflict, and was not my intention. See my previous edit diff for the version they were responding to. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Help me dig it up? Were you not among those who have added that information to the article? You certainly take every conceivable opportunity to sing SPT's praises. They won an award? Which, and when? Best editorial? Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC) No, you're supposed to go look in the article and follow the link, where you can see the budget PDF, that has Palin's signature on it, that was first mentioned in this discussion in September, and the line item within it, on the page of the PDF I specified, that is mentioned in the citation note that I added to the main article page in the edit that you deleted, with your own eyes, actually. Please rephrase 'exact delta in amounts between when Wasilla stopped billing to the insurers?' so that I can respond to that. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
More to the point, how much "Medical testing, road maintenance, equipment rental, airport snow removal" would $2600 buy? (Page H-5 of the PDF linked to in the HP article) Fannon was only budgeted $1000 that year. (link to budget PDF in article) Therefore it can't have cost $4000-15,000. Fannon was lying about how much it would cost. End of story. Against facts like that, your subjective assertions without supporting facts, like weight, go -poof- and disappear. How many rape kits did $400 buy? None. They charged for them all. Come on, admit it, you were really asking for that one. The real answer is complicated by the fact that rape exam procedures varied case by case; the Frontiersman estimate of $300-1200 is the commonly used one so far. There wasn't enough in the FY 2000 budget for a single rape kit at the upper levels of that estimate, let alone the other FY Contractual Services of "medical testing, road maintenance, equipment rental, airport snow removal". 1.Please show how cutting the budgeted amount for the line item by 13% ($400 of $3000) is " WP:UNDUE weight". 2.Please show " WP:OR". 3.Please show how 'investigative teams...refute (my) fundamental premise" 4.Show where and for what SPT won an award. 5.Explain 'delta'. Until you have gone to the site and look at the PDF and seen Palin's signature on the 2000 budget, and the "Contractual Services: Costs for medical blood tests for intoxicated drivers and medical exam / evidence collection for sexual assaults" line item you really aren't in a good position to criticize my research. Anarchangel ( talk) 14:02, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
One lie is evidence that a person is capable of others, but not proof that others occurred. I take the evidence as it comes. I was responding to your usage of Fannon's quote about the 4-15K; the fact that he was lying about it costing that much means that amount shouldn't be used in our equations. I concede that the variety within the Contractual Services line item is a problem in obtaining verifiable evidence of exactly what happened, but that has never been the objective of my proposals; I don't think there is a verifiability problem with us including cites to the line item itself or even mentions of it; my proposed text contains no assertions about its contents other than verifiable ones.
No, only evidence victims were charged
from the Alaska State Legislature Finance Committee hearings and possibly other Committees.
Ok, that's it "(and we know you're not)". That's the third time, at least. I absolve myself of the responsibility of ever answering another of your insinuations. I am always interested in a response. I don't agree with the The National Press Foundation, of course; they found the graphics 'exciting', whereas I find the Truth-o-meter to editorialise and oversimplify issues. But thank you for providing the cite.
So does that misconception, or misrepresentation, or whatever, explain why you won't go find the cite, I wonder, you're afraid that if you do it's original research? Surely not.
Please show numbers 1-5 above, or retract.
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
You repeatedly ignore my arguments; I chose numbers as a way of bringing your attention to them without having to repeatedly write out the questions. Please show numbers 1-5 above.
As for the rest of your statement:
'OR' three times, 'Cherry-picked', 'contrived', 'arranging them in an order that leads to desired conclusion', 'nonsensical', 'circuitous logic' as it is not backed by an example, or it would be worthy of consideration, 'if you really wanted'...nah, I won't address this sort of stuff anymore. Especially since arguments 1-5 are still awaiting consideration for concession or rebuttal.
Anarchangel (
talk)
11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Re: lie. Although really, why should I be having to respond to that? Still, I am used to it by now. The CNN cite, and in fact the text above includes the citation note with this quote verbatim, "Multiple sources tell CNN...her police department charged some rape victims the cost of the forensic exam...". The Fannon quote also specifically states that he charged victims. Your contention that it makes a difference that he billed insurance companies has long been noted, as has my contention, and that of others, that it does not.
Wait, so 7 out of 8 editors who responded to a proposed change above agreed that the compromise language or no language at all was appropriate, and now we have to discuss the same thing again? This is the very definition of tendentious editing. LedRush ( talk) 06:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
7 out of 8?
Oh, you bet your rare and strange hind end we're starting again. That is the very definition of an administrative review. - Anarchangel
Bizarre statement even to me, in 'hindsight'
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Have not been happy with this material since it was first introduced; just never had the time to deal with it. The article is referencing earlier statements by Palin's lawyers, not its own conclusions, when it mentions partisan smear job. It never considered that argument worthy of anything other than a mention, until this passage, which is in my opinion, an attempt to seem unbiased simply by including a mention. This is hamhanded, but neither should we misrepresent the material by giving this peripheral nod to an argument not addressed in the article the weight of inclusion in ours.
Suggest removing the material inside { }
"{Whether or not the Branchflower report -- which was launched by a bipartisan committee -- was a partisan smear job is debatable. What is not debatable is that }the report clearly states that she violated the State Ethics Act. Palin has reasonable grounds for arguing that the report cleared her of 'legal wrongdoing,' since she did have the authority to fire Monegan. But it is the reverse of the truth to claim that she was cleared of "any hint of any kind of unethical activity."
The ref for the material is
Washington Post
...And I never agreed to unilateral removal of words, let alone key sentences. Proposals here. I'm all ears. Anarchangel ( talk) 07:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of proposals, if you look at the discussion above, my insertion of the lawyer's quote, way back in September, was so that the part of the Dobbs quote at the bottom that I proposed deleting, could be removed; the first part of Dobbs' sentence only referred to the lawyer's statement; its inclusion makes equivocal what was intended to be a statement on her post-proceeding claim of victory. The author wasn't writing his sentence so that he could be quoted unequivocally, he was writing so that the article flowed nicely. What had been done is take his statement dismissing the previous material: the lawyer's statement, and move on, to Palin's quote, in one sentence. It's misleading to include the first part of the sentence. As I said, I had included the 'smear' quote in order that both sides be given a chance to speak. Her lawyer already said it; Dobb's opinion was focused in another direction. Here's the cite, you can see for yourselves. Anarchangel ( talk) 07:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Palin's public response to the Branchflower report was to claim that it had cleared her of any wrongdoing, prompting criticism alleging that it had not in fact cleared her of wrongdoing. This assertion by Palin, and the corresponding criticism, has now been removed by another editor on the grounds that Palin's claim was "silly".
While I agree that the claim itself was silly, it was also politically significant, as was the report itself, and the criticism made in response to Palin's assertion. I cannot think of a legitimate reason to remove this from the article. The actual effect of deleting this was to eliminate a significant criticism that was made. I'm not firing any shots in an edit war, but this deletion does not seem appropriate to me. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 01:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
You seem by the sweeping nature of your edits to have missed the ongoing discussion regarding the Branchflower section. The material should be restored to its former state before continuing the discussion. I don't suggest you do this, Ferrylodge, as you are currently at 5 nonconsecutive edits. Your WP:3RR warning to other editors was ill considered. Anarchangel ( talk) 06:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This material was previously proposed for addition by myself in the talk section Critters above. After a couple of days with only positive feedback, I made the error of inserting it without checking discussion, in which comments against inclusion had been posted. It was deleted by Kelly. Should it be restored, as is my hope, there is a redundancy to be removed from what I believe to be an inappropriate place: Public image section.
She brought suit to overturn the listing of [[polar bear]]s under the federal [[Endangered Species Act]],<ref>{{Citation | title = Alaska: Suit Filed Over Polar Bears | newspaper = New York Times| pages = A19| year = 2008| date = August 6, 2008| url = http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/06brfs-SUITFILEDOVE_BRF.html?_r=1}}</ref> and also opposed strengthening protections for [[Beluga (whale)|beluga whales]] in Alaska’s [[Cook Inlet]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837868,00.html|title=Palin on the Environment: Far Right|date=2008-09-01|accessdate=2008-09-04|publisher=Time|author=Bryan Walsh}}</ref>
Collect, in section Critters above, has expressed the opinion that this does not include a press release issued by Palin's staff. I noted, somewhat curtly, that he should add this information rather than deleting the material. This is my opinion still, although of course to be exact, it would be more proper to introduce it here beforehand as the material is currently under discussion, just as it would have been proper for Kelly to discuss the deletion of the above material here both before deleting it or once it had been deleted, or after my reply to Collect's comment about its deletion. Kelly has not discussed the material that Kelly deleted in any way, other than the ironic summary: "(remove the critter stuff per discussion on talk page)" I restored it along with other material, and LedRush, who had actually supported its inclusion in Critters section, reverted its a second time. Must have been the other material, I guess, but for every time I have been told that I shouldn't do large edits, I have also thought that editors ought to do a little more preserving of valuable material and not just reverting everything in a large edit, this being a prime example.
I disagree. The issue has sufficient weight to be included in the biography. Both sides of the argument should be included, but the topic is relevant to the biography. Manticore55 ( talk) 05:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
In addition to the redundancy mentioned above that would be created by the edit above, there is a redundancy already in this material. Should the above edit be accepted, the current material : |title=Is Palin foe of big oil or a new Cheney? |publisher=Reuters|date= September 12, 2008}}</ref> In turn, others have said that she is a "friend of Big Oil" due to her advocacy of oil exploitation, including her push to open the [[Arctic National Wildlife Refuge]] to drilling and an effort to de-list the [[polar bear]] as an [[endangered species]], since this could hinder oil searching.<ref name="politifact1"/><ref name="reuters1"/> would be replaced by |title=Is Palin foe of big oil or a new Cheney? |publisher=Reuters|date= September 12, 2008}}</ref> In turn, others have said that she is a "friend of Big Oil" due to her advocacy of oil exploitation.<ref name="foenews"/><ref name="Factbox">{{cite web|title=FACTBOX: Palin, Alaska and oil|url=http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1150444220080912?virtualBrandChannel=10112||publisher=Reuters|date= September 12, 2008|accessdate=22 Dec 08}}</ref> Note that this adds a new ref, which is a Factbox linked to by the Reuters page cited already. This new ref, from the Reuters site of impeccable quality, replaces what is in my opinion an editorial posing as a top 10 countdown posing as a news story from the extremely low rent St. Petersburg Times, which news outlet has in turns provided me with much grief due to its inclusion here and much amusement at seeing its opaque attempts to sway public opinion with cherry picked rehashes of other news outlets' news stories given an editorial spin. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I have been aware of both negative proof and the impossibility of proving the non-existence of God just as logical realities that must be, long before I looked logical fallacies up.
From the page, which admittedly I left a red link to, by including fallacy in the link. This logical fallacy is so far as I know unique in not being titled on its page with the complete name :
"Negative proof, the fallacy of appealing to lack of proof of the negative, is a logical fallacy of the following form:
"X is true because there is no proof that X is false."
It is asserted that a proposition is true, only because it has not been proven false. The negative proof fallacy often occurs in the debate of the existence of supernatural phenomena, in the following form:
"A supernatural force must exist, because there is no proof that it does not exist".
However, the fallacy can also occur when the predicate of a subject is denied:
"Religious people haven't been able to produce conclusive evidence to support the existence of a "God", therefore such a being must not exist."
"I am not sure that Anarchangel understands the negative proof fallacy. It is when the lack of evidence that something is true is used to definitively state that that thing is true. That is not the case here. We are using a citation from a reliable source which says only that they didn't find evidence that Palin knew about something. The article doesn't state that Palin didn't know about something. The difference is huge." - LedRush
Now, consider the statement, currently in the article uncited, "An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy."
X=Palin never "explicitly supported or opposed this policy" . It is true because "An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy."
A perfect match to "X is true because there is no proof that X is false."
This statement is a negative proof fallacy.
But there is evidence, although it has its own baggage, that Sarah Palin had nothing to do with Fannon's misdeeds, namely her statement of it; I have been supporting its inclusion in the article.("And the answer is direct from Palin. I support its inclusion most strongly,"-3 Dec. Because that statement is itself suspect, however, I have insisted that the question that prompted the answer be included, the question being notable as it is notable that anyone notable would evade a question put to them regarding a notable issue. Notable. Sorry, I ordered one too many 'Notables' and didn't have anywhere else to put it. Merry X. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I have changed Fannon's "involvement" to Fannon later did not agree with new legislation per the citation given. Are there more citations about his "involement" in this "matter" so it can be clarified?. Thank you, -- Tom 21:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Fannon is quoted in:
Anarchangel ( talk) 06:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This is yet again about Fannon. While The Frontiersman article did include the phrase "does not agree with the new legislation," a direct quote should be optional, and honestly describing the article should be required. The phrase "does not agree with" by itself is (perhaps intentionally) misleading, in that it portrays public opposition before the Alaska state government and the local newspaper as though it were a private, personal opinion. More important than a direct quote, could the article clarify that Fannon's disagreement was in the form of very public opposition to an Alaska state law. The quote is ok on that condition, but accuracy is more important than quotiness.
I personally think it would combine conciseness and accuracy (even though at the expense of being less quoty) to say that Fannon "publicly opposed" the law, not as "POV pushing" but because this is true.
Inaccurate and misleading statements fit the definition of "POV pushing" more than lack of direct quotes, as does Tom's imaginary Fannon page and imaginary (up to now) love of discussion and consensus. Jimmuldrow ( talk) 22:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I've been involved with this article since before Palin was nominated for VP...the whole rape kit meme is prime FRINGE material, and that includes the section at Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#HB 270. Nobody has ever come up with a case that Palin supported billing rape victims, and it just doesn't pass the common sense test anyway. Palin is a feminist, a woman, and the mother of three daughters - all of that aside, even the most misogynistic politician wouldn't support billing rape victims, it would be political suicide. And although many argue that Palin wasn't ready for a national campaign, everyone who knows her seems to agree that she has killer political instincts. All of this rape kit nonsense seems to originate in an attempt to drive a wedge between Palin and feminists for the 2008 national campaign - that's fine as a campaign talking point, but it doesn't belong in the encyclopedia. Propose removing all of the rape kit stuff from both here and Mayoralty of Sarah Palin. An argument could be made for keeping it in John McCain presidential campaign, 2008, since it was a talking point of Obama supporters, but it should be removed from the Palin biographical articles. Kelly hi! 22:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Discussion degenerates into squabbling and mudslinging here, mainly finger pointing, accusations, and dare-like challenges to escalate.
|
---|
(outdent) "evil trolls"? Don't know about evil, but troll definately fits. -- Tom 21:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
|
(undent)I'll agree with Kelly and LedRush. Except I'd like to point out that there is no Willie Horton here; no rape victim in Wasilla is known to have come forward or lodged any complaint with anyone, saying that she was billed. No news article or government record indicates that any victim in Wasilla was ever billed (though insurance companies were evidently billed), so it's understandable why no outraged victims came forward to complain to then-Mayor Palin about having been billed. There's no indication she became aware of this issue during her time as mayor., the notoriety of this matter is not comparable to the Horton matter. And, Dukakis had personally vetoed a bill to ban furloughs for first-degree murderers, saying that it would “cut the heart out of efforts of inmate rehabilitation.” [5] Where is Palin’s statement supporting billing victims for rape kits?
It's hard to see why we should hang Fannon’s position around Palin’s neck. Fannon said that the proposed legislation would prevent rapists themselves from being billed, which is a perfectly normal sentiment. Fannon also acknowledged billing insurance companies, but did not acknowledge billing victims. There is no indication that Palin was involved in any of this. Ferrylodge ( talk) 00:15, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)"00 CS FOR SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 270(HES) 01 "An Act relating to payment for certain examinations in cases of sexual assault." 02 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF ALASKA: 03 * Section 1. AS 18.68 is amended by adding a new section to read: 04 Sec. 18.68.040. Sexual assault victim may not be required to pay for 05 examination. A law enforcement agency, health care facility, or other entity may not 06 require a victim of sexual assault under AS 11.41.410 - 11.41.425 who is 16 years of 07 age or older to pay, directly or indirectly, through health insurance or any other means, 08 for the costs of examination of the victim necessary for 09 (1) collecting evidence using the sexual assault examination kit under 10 AS 18.68.010 or otherwise; or 11 (2) determining whether a sexual assault has occurred. "
Very obviously? It might have been one of the reasons. Your claim to know for certain is more than just mistaken. It is not logical. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I have to say, again, that is not a certainty. This argument is over the factual basis of two conjectures. I do agree with you insofar as deletion of the mention of HB 270 and Fannon's quotes about the cost and the charging. Insertion of the quote about his brand new idea that he had just that week thought of, or during the interview for all we know, after it turned out -he- had to pay, of charging someone other than rape victims, is completely out of context in its current usage. Its current usage is completely out of the question. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
His quotes, as you well know, are the proof that victims were charged. It is pointless even trying to remove it, as it is quite obviously the primary evidence for the case. You would be laughed out of any hearing on it. I am interested to hear of why you have changed your position on those quotes, Ferrylodge. When I first came to this article, you were at great pains to include as much as possible about Fannon and what he said as you possibly could, to the extent of adding his quotes to what is normally the spot for citation clarification, and which ended up looking more like footnotes. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Not any more. Currently it says, "Palin appointed<ref name="WasMuniCode"/> [[Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#Police matters|Charles Fannon]] to replace Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon later did not agree with new legislation preventing police departments from billing adult rape victims or their health insurance for evidence collection kits,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt |title=Knowles signs sexual assault bill |publisher=Frontiersman |first=Jo C. |last=Goode |date=May 23, 2000 |accessdate=2008-11-09}}</ref> stating that the Wasilla police had sometimes billed victims' health insurance in the past. An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy. It still needs work, as I mistakenly picked up the version that existed at my last edit, forgetting that people had already messed it up by then. I wanted to take it back to the version that was on the page for a month or so. Someone has been trying to make some obscure point by adding 'later' and such. The 'later did not agree' part in particular was something I had been wanting to fix before all this started; when you keep messing with the edits, I don't have time to set things right. And of course the SPT thing relies for its notability on a negative proof. As it is not true that finding no evidence means that Palin did not support the policy, the sentence has no notability. No one so far has been able to wrap their head around that one. Ask yourselves, does this prove that Palin did not support the policy? It does not. So if it doesn't mean that, what exactly does it mean? Only the implication that it in fact means anything keeps it going. Anyways, even if you don't understand it, someone else will, I am not bothered about that. Just prefer to get you on board if possible. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
What a load. The most egregious thing is that the victims got either a bill straight from the source, or got an item on their statement from the insurance company, reminding them of the rape, as the expert in the Committees pointed out. The money is incidental, it is the emotional impact. All this dreck about insurance is completely beside the point in the first place. That's a new low, and no surprise it came from that scumpit SPT.
I really think it is about time you considered that the difference between a person being personally sent the bill and their insurance company being sent the bill is no more than matter of them having sent their hard earned cash to the insurance company; a person's insurance is their asset, that they paid for. I first mentioned this in October. The insured person is charged; note that the law specifically states, "A law enforcement agency, health care facility, or other entity may not require a victim of sexual assaulta victim of sexual assault ... to pay, directly or indirectly, through health insurance or any other means," See, they say 'a victim...pay', even when it is via insurance. Also, the reason for specifying insurance was based on a narrow interpretation of Fannon's statement. There is the possibility he meant, "tried to bill", as in, when we weren't able to bill the insurers, we had to bill the victims. And although you don't know that he didn't, and I don't know that he did, there is the possibility. So the language should reflect that victims were charged for three reasons; the Legislature considers a charge to the insurer as 'requiring the victim to pay'; we don't know that Fannon only billed insurance; a bill to the insurer is a charge to the insuree in any case.
It is true that there was no specific mention of Wasilla, but there was a mention of Mat-Su Valley among other areas. And neither was Wasilla excluded as a place where it happened. Wasilla is 50% of the population of Mat-Su Valley, once you exclude Palmer, whose police chief, in the Fannon interview story, said he would 'never charge' in very strong terms. Plus Fannon said he charged. It's obvious they meant Wasilla, and were just being discrete, or being seen to be discrete, as far as I am concerned.
Anarchangel (
talk)
11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it has never been as bad as this. Unless you mean, when it was utterly deleted. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, check that sentence. No consensus needed to remove? You might want to amend that statement. You are confusing need for consensus with the burden of proof. The burden of proof for inclusion lies on the included material, which is why the negative proof of the SPT is OUTTAHERE. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Check WP:BLP about contentious material and the like. It is up to those who wish to INCLUDE to provide proof. Absent that, there is an obligation to remove. Collect ( talk) 13:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
An unbacked assertion, in lieu of concession. Some facts are presented, that seems indisputable. Your statement is even now, as the conversation ensues, being disputed, 'by' the current conversation. How can you expect it to be considered a statement of fact?
I would agree that it wasn't a consensus as it is known by
WP:CONSENSUS, but then I am not entirely convinced we mean the same thing by that word, F. You have certainly never used it as it is described on that page. It was a truce. And as this page goes, that's not too shabby, and we must respect as much as possible what vestiges of WP rules are to be found here.
Anarchangel (
talk)
11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)"I can’t imagine any police chief, big city or small, who would take on the entire State Legislature on a bill that passed unanimously and not mention to their mayor that they’re doing this,” Mr. Croft said. Even if he didn’t inform her, the newspaper article would have been hard for her to miss." and also "I find it hard to believe that for six months a small town, a police chief, would lead the fight against a statewide piece of legislation receiving unanimous support and the mayor not know about it," and also "It's incomprehensible to me that this could be a rogue police chief and not a policy decision. It lasted too long and it was too high-profile,"... see also the NYT opinion piece which opined that even if she didn't know, she owed voters an answer on the issue, as she was asking to be elected VP and presenting her credentials as mayor of Wasilla as evidence of her leadership experience. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 02:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
In this above argument, we have seen:
charged.
Anyone have anything to add? I haven't gotten to conclusions or disputed statements yet, but it's quittin' time. Anyway, by this hopefully you've got an idea of how this should be run. Point, counterpoint, note all the results, til we arrive at a Consensus.
The WP:EQ points are back up in the Post-election information section, as they were deleted in this last round of Archiving. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
To my mind, it is completely 100% unacceptable for this article to mention anything about billing victims. There was a concerted attempt in the blogosphere to confuse billing victims with billing insurance companies: "Bloggers have portrayed it as a heartless rule seeking money from rape victims, but they have neglected to mention that the policy seems to have been aimed more at getting money from insurance companies than from victims." [11]
There is zero evidence that Wasilla ever billed a victim. There is zero evidence that Palin even knew the town was billing insurance companies, and less than zero evidence that she conspired to bill any victims. It's simply not appropriate to mention in this article a horrible, disgusting billing practice that occurred in Juneau (not Wasilla), thereby sliming Palin in the process. I don't care how long this article mentioned billing victims, the fact is it shouldn't be in this article. At most, we can mention billing insurance companies. Otherwise, it's an egregious BLP violation, guilt by association, WP:Undue weight, original research, POV, and a whole bunch of other acronyms that I can get into if you like. Ferrylodge ( talk) 20:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Just a reminder to assume good faith and be nice. I don't actually care if you really truly are agf'ing; but if you parse your posts as though you were the end effect is virtually the same. Demanding apologies, accusing others of deliberate falsehoods, etc are unhelpful. I will start removing uncivil posts if you cannot learn to moderate your tone (this is a blanket message to all who have become a little heated.) KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Try the video link. It is in the first line of the video report. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, ok, fine, you answered Kelly's point, I answered Kelly's point and her false analogy combined. And the issue of not answering rebuttals is a long standing one. In case you haven't seen it, Kelly, it was addressed at the beginning of the Palin quote section. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Another false analogy. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
The problem with Factchecker's arguments, and all arguments on this subject (of course including mine), is that it comes down to a matter of opinion, not some clearly objective "yes" or "no" answer. In his opinion it's relevant to her notability. In mine it's not because I don't believe that there is evidence that she knew of this issue or that it was relevant to her political history. While it has been mentioned in reliable sources, so have lawsuits about Obama not being a natural born citizen. In my mind, it is clearly off topic and the mere inclusion of this type of inflammatory innuendo is a violation of our BLP standards. Alas, this policy, like almost all, is rarely cut and dry in its interpretation. I honestly belive both sides of this issue have clearly stated their reasons numerous times, and both sides can be defended, and we seem to be at an impass. That's why we agreed on the consensus language above. LedRush ( talk) 03:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Should we move discussion of the rape kit thingy to Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard? Kelly hi! 02:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
It's a minority criticism, not a fringe theory, as I think is pretty clearly indicated by WP:Fringe, but knock yourself out. Please go ahead and give notice here if you start a discussion on that noticeboard to get it removed. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 02:27, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
This would be fringy if any allegation that Palin is pro-rape were made, or if any Willie Horton level of exageration was made of it. However, is the CEO at Merryll Lynch responsible for massive failure? Is anyone in a decision making decision ever responsible for anything, including poor leadership and management decisions and complete lack of oversight? I think this is what is getting lost in the shuffle. Jimmuldrow ( talk) 02:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the fact that victims were charged for their own rape kits in Wasilla is not a fringe theory, as the Fannon quote and CNN article prove. It does not speak well of your time on this page, as evidenced by your user page, that you are not familiar with those facts. I suggest not ignoring them again. I have an interest in acquainting myself with the appeal process and a nice low learning curve is very appealing. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain why the rape kit thing belongs in Sarah Palin, as opposed to Wasilla, Alaska, History of Alaska, United States presidential election, 2008 or some other more general article? Kelly hi! 03:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Kelly mentioning Factchecker's experience is close to an attack - it's completely irrelevant and you were obviously saying it as a way of disregarding his points. Kelly and Factchecker: both of you might want to take a step back - this argument seems to be getting a little politicized. What we need to do is to find sources that directly comment on the Palin issue. If there are enough sources, i.e. if the topic is notable, it should be mentioned. Controversy surrounding Palin's alleged beliefs is relevant to the article as her notability exists outside the realm of the 2008 presidential race; as the governor of a state her beliefs are relevant, and therefore a belief that she is alleged to have is relevant if there has been significant news coverage (and if there has been significant news coverage, to my understanding WP:FRINGE would not apply, as it is not a matter of whether many people believe Palin wanted to charge rape victims, it is a matter of whether there was significant coverage of this alleged belief - and the latter is what would be mentioned in the article). My word is obviously not final, so I don't mean to distract too much from the debate, I'm just saying that compiling sources might give us a place to start.-- daniel folsom 04:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
With respect, Daniel, note who is initiating each exchange. WP:EQ recommends that assertions be answered. What's missing is conceding when points are made. Anarchangel ( talk) 05:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Writegeist has also been here the whole time, and Jimmuldrow edited a lot recently. Greekparadise was writing in favor of it when I first got here in early October. Not an exhaustive list by any means. We get a lot of support from IPs and people who come in and post two or three times and then leave. Probably they don't realize it's a siege.
But that is all peripheral. What matters is reaching consensus. You have an opportunity to start, above, by conceding that there is in fact evidence that victims were charged in Wasilla.
Anarchangel (
talk)
21:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
I can see that the rape kit section is once again being mediated by edit war rather than by discussion. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 02:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
The Rape Kit must be included in the article. Given the history on this topic, any attempt to remove it is a deliberate and flagrant attempt to violate consensus if any of those attempting to remove it were involved in previous consensus. I will immediately escalate to mediation if it is removed. Manticore55 ( talk) 05:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I suggest everyone ignore and move past the several posts above. Work with your fellow editors to build consensus, Manticore; do not accuse them of ill motives or make ultimatums. Collect, please do not escalate but rather attempt to calm the situation, ok? And Factchecker, accusing others of lying is beyond unhelpful; I would appreciate it if you would strike your accusation. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
"Personal remark" in full.: "I will stop, but I think singling me out for a single infraction belies the more widespread abuse to which I have been subjected, with nary a comment by you"-Factchecker atyourservice Anarchangel ( talk) 21:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC) I can attest to this. So can the record of this very page, without even having to go to archives. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
After reading this article which says that rape victims in North Carolina were billed for evidence kits until recently, and that rape victims in Illinois, Georgia, and Arkansas are continuing to be billed, I looked at a few random biographies of executive and legislative politicians from those states - and can find no mention of their states' rape kit policies in their biographies. Why the disparity? Kelly hi! 20:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Just a dump of some evidence links regarding the rape kit controversy... Kelly hi! 21:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
1. SART was an operation allowed to use the City of Wasilla police facilities. Their charges to the hospital are not relevant, and as one might expect from a biased blog, are used in a misleading way. It is made up to look like an official bill but it isn't. I forgot this even existed, it was so obviously fabricated.
2. Opinion piece. Its first opinion runs along the lines of, although Wrong A was done in this case, Wrong A was done all the time, so why is everyone complaining?
3. This is at least based on fact. It attempts to gloss over the mention of Mat-Su Valley by rating it by size, rather than population. As noted above, Wasilla was half the population of the Mat-Su Valley once you take out the second biggest town, Palmer, whose police chief vowed he would never charge. To say nothing of the fact that the point is moot as Fannon already had said he charged. Slam dunk all over the debunk. Del Smith the desk jockey at Safety, speaking for police departments all over the state that he had quite obviously never visited, let alone supervised, was contradicted by both other witnesses in that they all reported victims were charged. Not content with reporting the fact that the other two witnesses at the Hearings told that hospitals charged, the article adds "not police stations", which the witnesses did not and would not have said, as their field of expertise did not include that.
4. Naff link. Better one with all the committees' links on one page, above.
5. Interesting. Is this to be considered proof that this compensation was readily available and widely known? Or that Fannon was incompetent in not advising victims of their options as well as charging them? It seems sure that he was less competent than the room full of Palin supporters with an internet connection it took to track this down, or he would have mentioned it in the Frontiersman interview. Shame they weren't there when victims were charged.
Anarchangel (
talk)
06:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Anarchangel ( talk) 06:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Im prepared to pay every dime in an investigation. As long as I am chief, I would never bill a victim, Zager said." Frontiersman
The letter from, you claim, the police chief, to a blogger, is manufactured evidence after the controversy started, let alone after the bill was passed and other time frames that have been brought up to show irrelevance ad nauseum. If it confirms anything it is that the police dept. had a backlog of charges that it felt required to settle with the hospital after the law was passed. I had, and still have, considerably better evidence that police depts. were handing along the charges to the hospitals, and therefore, most likely the job of collecting evidence. Which can't be very good for the reliability of the evidence. There is no way you can slice this and not come up with something rotten. And we haven't even gotten to the takeover of the hospital. Anarchangel ( talk) 20:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
1. I do wish to retract. You did not describe it as from the police chief. It is the original label of the link that describes it as from the police chief. I made a mistake.
2.I find my use of the word "fabricated", in the initial comment on the links, regrettable. That was rhetoric. However, you are cherry picking. I did not refer to it as fabricated in the reply to your edit, but 'manufactured'.
The form and content of the letter were misleading; the source would therefore seem to be either biased or incompetent. In this way the appearance of an official document is, 'manufactured'; it is not even a copy, merely a list. The conclusions drawn from it in the accompanying article are erroneous, and the forum in which they appear, excruciatingly biased. The veracity of the information in the letter remains unclear.
Anarchangel (
talk)
22:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | → | Archive 50 |
Gallup is showing [1] Palin as the world's second-most admired woman by Americans, behind Hillary Clinton and ahead of Oprah Winfrey. Is this notable enough for inclusion, and, if so, should it go here, in the "Public image and reception" subarticle, or both. Cheers - Kelly hi! 17:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that the "public image" section includes basically every self-described Republican that has criticized Palin - even such non-entities as
Kathleen Parker, who probably 1% of Americans have never ever heard of. However, the only Republican described as praising her in this section is
Bill Kristol, a noted neocon. It's pretty easy to dig up statements from other conservatives who praise her in print - ranging from
Rush Limbaugh to
Mark Steyn to
Fred Thompson to
Byron York, and even praise from liberals and feminists -
Lynn Forester de Rothschild,
Camille Paglia, and
Elaine Lafferty come to mind.
How should we handle this - trim back the "conservative" criticism section, beef up the praise section, both, or eliminate both altogether? Kelly hi! 21:30, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Just curious about how we should handle this article going forward, post-election...looking at the discussion above, the Campaign '08 rhetoric seems to be going full swing. However, we've got some new notable information happening since the election, and I'm wondering how we should structure this article as a result. Some of the information undoubtedly belongs in the "Governorship" section and/or subarticle (like the rollout of her comprehensive energy plan for Alaska), but other things are not directly related to her governorship...for instance, Saxby Chambliss credited her as a significant factor in his Senate runoff victory [2], Human Events named her Conservative of the Year [3], and she's been invited to speak at the Conservative Political Action Conference [4]. Assuming the info is notable enough for inclusion, where should we place it? Kelly hi! 16:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Kelly, if you can incorporate the Conservative of the Year and CPAC appearance in the article here, I suggest this is the appropriate place. The Chambliss content IMO is more appropriat3ely kept on his article. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Consensus
Three guidelines from
WP:ETIQUETTE aka
WP:EQ are particularly useful:
'Do not'. Not, 'it is best not to', or 'it is good to respond to questions', or, 'responding to questions is part of the process'. Do Not.
In other words, respond to responses.
And that doesn't mean, respond to some relatively unimportant aspect related to it, nor does it mean, respond with a new issue, it means, aid the process of definition of the consensus by defining the boundaries of your argument. Faced with these guidelines being ignored, go to arbitration. This is intended to focus attention on these three rules, as key to beginning a consensus-building process. It is not intended to focus attention away from other rules such as WP:NPA or WP:AGF.
Additions?
Can we please try to use this page for discussing how to improve the article rather than just linking to garbage (see above)? Also the single purpose trolls still seem to be out in force here. Oh well, -- Tom 18:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I will continue to remove the POV pushing essay crap which is being posted here as vandalism, and will start blocking vandals if you do not cease. Puppy has spoken; puppy is in no mood to tolerate this crap. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Whether you agree with the comments in question or not, they seemed to be posted as a good faith attempt to improve the article, as opposed to the obvious attempts at vandalism. Jimmuldrow ( talk) 00:28, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) What was posted here was in no way a suggestion for improving the article. It was links, with very long excerpts, to opinion pieces. If someone has a suggestion for article improvement, we all welcome it. Make it concise, please, and make it clear. Do not edit war when a long post with no reference to the article is removed from an article talk page; this is appropriate and I will continue to do it if it happens again. I play no favorites (Well ok, Bishonen and Giano and a few other editors will virtually always get my support but that's because they write too damn well to disagree with) and have little patience for WP:TE. I also keep no grudges, so shall we move along now? I for one am past done with this; it is a closed subject, or should be. Enough bits have been wasted on it. KillerChihuahua ?!? 03:49, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. KillerChihuahua ?!? 21:31, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
All of the below changes up to 'Public image section' were originally added to the main article in my edit of 22nd Dec 08 at 1:25 although earlier versions of the kit material and the Critters material were added on 19 Dec 08 at 21:07 and 21:09 respectively. As the kit material summary says, the Palin quote itself had been in the article before that, in and out since September, as I recall, but I haven't checked lately.
An early proponent, and as far back as I have checked, the originator of the idea of including some reference to the questions that Palin was asked was [ http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sarah_Palin&diff=249463399&oldid=249462526 Factcheckeratyourservice on 3 Nov.
Editor Coemgenus was the originator of the Stambaugh-mentioned-SB177 material on Nov 3, although not in this form, and he removed the Palin quote and replaced it with the
negative proof fallacy mentioned below. One step forward, one step back. He also removed the Obama-Meyers material, which had remained for quite a long time, right up until election day.
I have changed my position on the Stambaugh-mentioned-SB177 issue considerably. From what I can tell, everyone including myself were reading the
bill wrongly; making this text a perfect case of not only why primary sources are considered a problem, but also why they are not banned outright. They are extremely easy to misuse (our error) and yet they can be, as in this case, the most reliable source of information if they are used properly. To clarify the error: The underlined text is deleted from AS whatever it was, and the CAPITAL LETTERS text is what is added. SB177 turns out to be a much different bill than anyone was representing it as, including Stambaugh and Knowles. Whether that was due to perfidy or lack of knowledge, I wonder if we'll ever know. In Stambaugh's case, I doubt very much if it was perfidy; he had every opportunity to misunderstand the bill, as he didn't even have access to the information we have, and he was just a small town cop. It may well have been misrepresented during the debate. Now I can bet you think that that means we should automatically discard this sentence. I contend that is not so, although this does complicate the issue so much that we may have to. SB177 wasn't a gun bill that would have allowed guns in schools. There's that. But neither was it legislation that prohibited guns in schools;
my initial edit was to replace a sentence saying that, with the sentence saying it allowed guns in colleges, which was also wrong, as they had always been allowed in colleges, before SB177, and weren't allowed by SB177, and for all I know, are still allowed. Stambaugh believed SB177 to be gun control legislation that would have allowed guns in schools, he reported as such in every interview that brought the subject up, and for all we know, Palin believed it to be so, but we can't rely on that in any way. Stambaugh is reported in various news sources, and this is reflected, although not confirmed, in the Alaska Legislature's own record of Tony Knowles' veto, as having objected to Knowles about SB177, leading to Knowles' veto. Palin had been supported by the NRA since early in her career, and you better believe they knew about the veto, and possibly who influenced Knowles to veto. We can't prove that yet.
So I dunno. Include or not, revamp, whatever, we'll see. I thought I ought to give the whole story though.
Propose adding this to the First term section, and preferably make separate subheadings within that section per Mayoralty of Sarah Palin Palin appointed<ref name="WasMuniCode">{{cite web|title=Wasilla municipal code|url=http://www.codepublishing.com/AK/Wasilla/Wasilla02/Wasilla0216.html|accessdate=22 Dec 08}}sections 2.16.020 & 2.16.040</ref> [[Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#Police matters|Charles Fannon]] to replace Irl Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon's department charged the cost of sexual assault evidence collection kits to the victims;<ref name="Fquote">{{cite web|url=http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt |title=Knowles signs sexual assault bill |publisher=Frontiersman |first=Jo C. |last=Goode |date=May 23, 2000 |accessdate=2008-11-09}}""In the past we've charged the cost of exams to the victims insurance company when possible. I just don't want to see any more burden put on the taxpayer", Fannon said. According to Fannon, the new law will cost the Wasilla Police Department approximately $5,000 to $14,000 a year to collect evidence for sexual assault cases." -Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman</ref><ref name="CNNCharge">{{cite news|title=Palin's town charged women for rape exams|url=http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/21/palin.rape.exams/index.html|publisher=[[CNN]]|date=22 Sep 08|accessdate=22 Dec 08}}includes link to video: "Multiple sources tell CNN...her police department charged some rape victims the cost of the forensic exam..."</ref> he opposed a 2001 state law requiring police departments to pay for the kits.<ref name="Fquote"/> Palin, who was responsible for creating and overseeing the budget,<ref name="WasMuniCode"/> cut funds to the "Contractual Services" line item for the kits;<ref name="Budget"/> Stambaugh said he had included the line item to cover the kits when he was police chief under Stein.<ref name="CNNCharge"/><ref name="Budget">{{cite news|title=New Evidence: Palin Had Direct Role In Charging Rape Victims For Exams|url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jacob-alperinsheriff/sarah-palin-instituted-ra_b_125833.html|author=Jacob Alperin-Sheriff|publisher=Huffington Post|date=September 11, 2008 08:30 PM (EST)|accessdate=Dec 22 08}} The exam kits, and other "Contractual Services", including removing snow from the nearby airport runway, were allocated an average of $2,600 for the years 1998-2001, compared with $3000 for the previous four years. Includes link to budget PDF; line item-page 42.</ref><blockquote>Frontiersman: During your tenure as Mayor, what was the police department and city’s standard operating procedure in recovering costs of rape kits? Were any sexual assault victims ever charged for this testing while you were mayor?"<br>Sarah Palin: "The entire notion of making a victim of a crime pay for anything is crazy. I do not believe, nor have I ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test. As governor, I worked in a variety of ways to tackle the problem of sexual assault and rape, including making domestic violence a priority of my administration."<br> - Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman, September 30, 2008<ref>{{cite web|url=http://frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/30/breaking_news/doc48e1e1294d418713321438.txt|title=FRONTIERSMAN EXCLUSIVE: Palin responds to questions|publisher|Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman|date=Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:39 AM AKDT|access=3rd Dec, 08}}</ref></blockquote> The above text to replace the current version below: Palin appointed<ref name="WasMuniCode"/> [[Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#Police matters|Charles Fannon]] to replace Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon later publicly opposed new legislation preventing police departments from billing adult rape victims or their health insurance for evidence collection kits,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt |title=Knowles signs sexual assault bill |publisher=Frontiersman |first=Jo C. |last=Goode |date=May 23, 2000 |accessdate=2008-11-09}}</ref> stating that the Wasilla police had sometimes billed victims' health insurance in the past. An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy. Note that the current version ends with a sentence that, as it is not cited, is currently unverifiable. Note also that it in fact can never be verified, even by a citation, as it is a near-perfect example of a negative proof fallacy.
My edit changed the material above in a way such that the below comments on my previous edit may seem out of place. This was caused by me editing during the time that the below comments were added, resulting in an edit conflict, and was not my intention. See my previous edit diff for the version they were responding to. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Help me dig it up? Were you not among those who have added that information to the article? You certainly take every conceivable opportunity to sing SPT's praises. They won an award? Which, and when? Best editorial? Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC) No, you're supposed to go look in the article and follow the link, where you can see the budget PDF, that has Palin's signature on it, that was first mentioned in this discussion in September, and the line item within it, on the page of the PDF I specified, that is mentioned in the citation note that I added to the main article page in the edit that you deleted, with your own eyes, actually. Please rephrase 'exact delta in amounts between when Wasilla stopped billing to the insurers?' so that I can respond to that. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
More to the point, how much "Medical testing, road maintenance, equipment rental, airport snow removal" would $2600 buy? (Page H-5 of the PDF linked to in the HP article) Fannon was only budgeted $1000 that year. (link to budget PDF in article) Therefore it can't have cost $4000-15,000. Fannon was lying about how much it would cost. End of story. Against facts like that, your subjective assertions without supporting facts, like weight, go -poof- and disappear. How many rape kits did $400 buy? None. They charged for them all. Come on, admit it, you were really asking for that one. The real answer is complicated by the fact that rape exam procedures varied case by case; the Frontiersman estimate of $300-1200 is the commonly used one so far. There wasn't enough in the FY 2000 budget for a single rape kit at the upper levels of that estimate, let alone the other FY Contractual Services of "medical testing, road maintenance, equipment rental, airport snow removal". 1.Please show how cutting the budgeted amount for the line item by 13% ($400 of $3000) is " WP:UNDUE weight". 2.Please show " WP:OR". 3.Please show how 'investigative teams...refute (my) fundamental premise" 4.Show where and for what SPT won an award. 5.Explain 'delta'. Until you have gone to the site and look at the PDF and seen Palin's signature on the 2000 budget, and the "Contractual Services: Costs for medical blood tests for intoxicated drivers and medical exam / evidence collection for sexual assaults" line item you really aren't in a good position to criticize my research. Anarchangel ( talk) 14:02, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
One lie is evidence that a person is capable of others, but not proof that others occurred. I take the evidence as it comes. I was responding to your usage of Fannon's quote about the 4-15K; the fact that he was lying about it costing that much means that amount shouldn't be used in our equations. I concede that the variety within the Contractual Services line item is a problem in obtaining verifiable evidence of exactly what happened, but that has never been the objective of my proposals; I don't think there is a verifiability problem with us including cites to the line item itself or even mentions of it; my proposed text contains no assertions about its contents other than verifiable ones.
No, only evidence victims were charged
from the Alaska State Legislature Finance Committee hearings and possibly other Committees.
Ok, that's it "(and we know you're not)". That's the third time, at least. I absolve myself of the responsibility of ever answering another of your insinuations. I am always interested in a response. I don't agree with the The National Press Foundation, of course; they found the graphics 'exciting', whereas I find the Truth-o-meter to editorialise and oversimplify issues. But thank you for providing the cite.
So does that misconception, or misrepresentation, or whatever, explain why you won't go find the cite, I wonder, you're afraid that if you do it's original research? Surely not.
Please show numbers 1-5 above, or retract.
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
You repeatedly ignore my arguments; I chose numbers as a way of bringing your attention to them without having to repeatedly write out the questions. Please show numbers 1-5 above.
As for the rest of your statement:
'OR' three times, 'Cherry-picked', 'contrived', 'arranging them in an order that leads to desired conclusion', 'nonsensical', 'circuitous logic' as it is not backed by an example, or it would be worthy of consideration, 'if you really wanted'...nah, I won't address this sort of stuff anymore. Especially since arguments 1-5 are still awaiting consideration for concession or rebuttal.
Anarchangel (
talk)
11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Re: lie. Although really, why should I be having to respond to that? Still, I am used to it by now. The CNN cite, and in fact the text above includes the citation note with this quote verbatim, "Multiple sources tell CNN...her police department charged some rape victims the cost of the forensic exam...". The Fannon quote also specifically states that he charged victims. Your contention that it makes a difference that he billed insurance companies has long been noted, as has my contention, and that of others, that it does not.
Wait, so 7 out of 8 editors who responded to a proposed change above agreed that the compromise language or no language at all was appropriate, and now we have to discuss the same thing again? This is the very definition of tendentious editing. LedRush ( talk) 06:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
7 out of 8?
Oh, you bet your rare and strange hind end we're starting again. That is the very definition of an administrative review. - Anarchangel
Bizarre statement even to me, in 'hindsight'
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Have not been happy with this material since it was first introduced; just never had the time to deal with it. The article is referencing earlier statements by Palin's lawyers, not its own conclusions, when it mentions partisan smear job. It never considered that argument worthy of anything other than a mention, until this passage, which is in my opinion, an attempt to seem unbiased simply by including a mention. This is hamhanded, but neither should we misrepresent the material by giving this peripheral nod to an argument not addressed in the article the weight of inclusion in ours.
Suggest removing the material inside { }
"{Whether or not the Branchflower report -- which was launched by a bipartisan committee -- was a partisan smear job is debatable. What is not debatable is that }the report clearly states that she violated the State Ethics Act. Palin has reasonable grounds for arguing that the report cleared her of 'legal wrongdoing,' since she did have the authority to fire Monegan. But it is the reverse of the truth to claim that she was cleared of "any hint of any kind of unethical activity."
The ref for the material is
Washington Post
...And I never agreed to unilateral removal of words, let alone key sentences. Proposals here. I'm all ears. Anarchangel ( talk) 07:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of proposals, if you look at the discussion above, my insertion of the lawyer's quote, way back in September, was so that the part of the Dobbs quote at the bottom that I proposed deleting, could be removed; the first part of Dobbs' sentence only referred to the lawyer's statement; its inclusion makes equivocal what was intended to be a statement on her post-proceeding claim of victory. The author wasn't writing his sentence so that he could be quoted unequivocally, he was writing so that the article flowed nicely. What had been done is take his statement dismissing the previous material: the lawyer's statement, and move on, to Palin's quote, in one sentence. It's misleading to include the first part of the sentence. As I said, I had included the 'smear' quote in order that both sides be given a chance to speak. Her lawyer already said it; Dobb's opinion was focused in another direction. Here's the cite, you can see for yourselves. Anarchangel ( talk) 07:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Palin's public response to the Branchflower report was to claim that it had cleared her of any wrongdoing, prompting criticism alleging that it had not in fact cleared her of wrongdoing. This assertion by Palin, and the corresponding criticism, has now been removed by another editor on the grounds that Palin's claim was "silly".
While I agree that the claim itself was silly, it was also politically significant, as was the report itself, and the criticism made in response to Palin's assertion. I cannot think of a legitimate reason to remove this from the article. The actual effect of deleting this was to eliminate a significant criticism that was made. I'm not firing any shots in an edit war, but this deletion does not seem appropriate to me. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 01:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
You seem by the sweeping nature of your edits to have missed the ongoing discussion regarding the Branchflower section. The material should be restored to its former state before continuing the discussion. I don't suggest you do this, Ferrylodge, as you are currently at 5 nonconsecutive edits. Your WP:3RR warning to other editors was ill considered. Anarchangel ( talk) 06:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This material was previously proposed for addition by myself in the talk section Critters above. After a couple of days with only positive feedback, I made the error of inserting it without checking discussion, in which comments against inclusion had been posted. It was deleted by Kelly. Should it be restored, as is my hope, there is a redundancy to be removed from what I believe to be an inappropriate place: Public image section.
She brought suit to overturn the listing of [[polar bear]]s under the federal [[Endangered Species Act]],<ref>{{Citation | title = Alaska: Suit Filed Over Polar Bears | newspaper = New York Times| pages = A19| year = 2008| date = August 6, 2008| url = http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/06brfs-SUITFILEDOVE_BRF.html?_r=1}}</ref> and also opposed strengthening protections for [[Beluga (whale)|beluga whales]] in Alaska’s [[Cook Inlet]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837868,00.html|title=Palin on the Environment: Far Right|date=2008-09-01|accessdate=2008-09-04|publisher=Time|author=Bryan Walsh}}</ref>
Collect, in section Critters above, has expressed the opinion that this does not include a press release issued by Palin's staff. I noted, somewhat curtly, that he should add this information rather than deleting the material. This is my opinion still, although of course to be exact, it would be more proper to introduce it here beforehand as the material is currently under discussion, just as it would have been proper for Kelly to discuss the deletion of the above material here both before deleting it or once it had been deleted, or after my reply to Collect's comment about its deletion. Kelly has not discussed the material that Kelly deleted in any way, other than the ironic summary: "(remove the critter stuff per discussion on talk page)" I restored it along with other material, and LedRush, who had actually supported its inclusion in Critters section, reverted its a second time. Must have been the other material, I guess, but for every time I have been told that I shouldn't do large edits, I have also thought that editors ought to do a little more preserving of valuable material and not just reverting everything in a large edit, this being a prime example.
I disagree. The issue has sufficient weight to be included in the biography. Both sides of the argument should be included, but the topic is relevant to the biography. Manticore55 ( talk) 05:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
In addition to the redundancy mentioned above that would be created by the edit above, there is a redundancy already in this material. Should the above edit be accepted, the current material : |title=Is Palin foe of big oil or a new Cheney? |publisher=Reuters|date= September 12, 2008}}</ref> In turn, others have said that she is a "friend of Big Oil" due to her advocacy of oil exploitation, including her push to open the [[Arctic National Wildlife Refuge]] to drilling and an effort to de-list the [[polar bear]] as an [[endangered species]], since this could hinder oil searching.<ref name="politifact1"/><ref name="reuters1"/> would be replaced by |title=Is Palin foe of big oil or a new Cheney? |publisher=Reuters|date= September 12, 2008}}</ref> In turn, others have said that she is a "friend of Big Oil" due to her advocacy of oil exploitation.<ref name="foenews"/><ref name="Factbox">{{cite web|title=FACTBOX: Palin, Alaska and oil|url=http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1150444220080912?virtualBrandChannel=10112||publisher=Reuters|date= September 12, 2008|accessdate=22 Dec 08}}</ref> Note that this adds a new ref, which is a Factbox linked to by the Reuters page cited already. This new ref, from the Reuters site of impeccable quality, replaces what is in my opinion an editorial posing as a top 10 countdown posing as a news story from the extremely low rent St. Petersburg Times, which news outlet has in turns provided me with much grief due to its inclusion here and much amusement at seeing its opaque attempts to sway public opinion with cherry picked rehashes of other news outlets' news stories given an editorial spin. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
I have been aware of both negative proof and the impossibility of proving the non-existence of God just as logical realities that must be, long before I looked logical fallacies up.
From the page, which admittedly I left a red link to, by including fallacy in the link. This logical fallacy is so far as I know unique in not being titled on its page with the complete name :
"Negative proof, the fallacy of appealing to lack of proof of the negative, is a logical fallacy of the following form:
"X is true because there is no proof that X is false."
It is asserted that a proposition is true, only because it has not been proven false. The negative proof fallacy often occurs in the debate of the existence of supernatural phenomena, in the following form:
"A supernatural force must exist, because there is no proof that it does not exist".
However, the fallacy can also occur when the predicate of a subject is denied:
"Religious people haven't been able to produce conclusive evidence to support the existence of a "God", therefore such a being must not exist."
"I am not sure that Anarchangel understands the negative proof fallacy. It is when the lack of evidence that something is true is used to definitively state that that thing is true. That is not the case here. We are using a citation from a reliable source which says only that they didn't find evidence that Palin knew about something. The article doesn't state that Palin didn't know about something. The difference is huge." - LedRush
Now, consider the statement, currently in the article uncited, "An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy."
X=Palin never "explicitly supported or opposed this policy" . It is true because "An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy."
A perfect match to "X is true because there is no proof that X is false."
This statement is a negative proof fallacy.
But there is evidence, although it has its own baggage, that Sarah Palin had nothing to do with Fannon's misdeeds, namely her statement of it; I have been supporting its inclusion in the article.("And the answer is direct from Palin. I support its inclusion most strongly,"-3 Dec. Because that statement is itself suspect, however, I have insisted that the question that prompted the answer be included, the question being notable as it is notable that anyone notable would evade a question put to them regarding a notable issue. Notable. Sorry, I ordered one too many 'Notables' and didn't have anywhere else to put it. Merry X. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I have changed Fannon's "involvement" to Fannon later did not agree with new legislation per the citation given. Are there more citations about his "involement" in this "matter" so it can be clarified?. Thank you, -- Tom 21:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Fannon is quoted in:
Anarchangel ( talk) 06:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This is yet again about Fannon. While The Frontiersman article did include the phrase "does not agree with the new legislation," a direct quote should be optional, and honestly describing the article should be required. The phrase "does not agree with" by itself is (perhaps intentionally) misleading, in that it portrays public opposition before the Alaska state government and the local newspaper as though it were a private, personal opinion. More important than a direct quote, could the article clarify that Fannon's disagreement was in the form of very public opposition to an Alaska state law. The quote is ok on that condition, but accuracy is more important than quotiness.
I personally think it would combine conciseness and accuracy (even though at the expense of being less quoty) to say that Fannon "publicly opposed" the law, not as "POV pushing" but because this is true.
Inaccurate and misleading statements fit the definition of "POV pushing" more than lack of direct quotes, as does Tom's imaginary Fannon page and imaginary (up to now) love of discussion and consensus. Jimmuldrow ( talk) 22:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
I've been involved with this article since before Palin was nominated for VP...the whole rape kit meme is prime FRINGE material, and that includes the section at Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#HB 270. Nobody has ever come up with a case that Palin supported billing rape victims, and it just doesn't pass the common sense test anyway. Palin is a feminist, a woman, and the mother of three daughters - all of that aside, even the most misogynistic politician wouldn't support billing rape victims, it would be political suicide. And although many argue that Palin wasn't ready for a national campaign, everyone who knows her seems to agree that she has killer political instincts. All of this rape kit nonsense seems to originate in an attempt to drive a wedge between Palin and feminists for the 2008 national campaign - that's fine as a campaign talking point, but it doesn't belong in the encyclopedia. Propose removing all of the rape kit stuff from both here and Mayoralty of Sarah Palin. An argument could be made for keeping it in John McCain presidential campaign, 2008, since it was a talking point of Obama supporters, but it should be removed from the Palin biographical articles. Kelly hi! 22:23, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
Discussion degenerates into squabbling and mudslinging here, mainly finger pointing, accusations, and dare-like challenges to escalate.
|
---|
(outdent) "evil trolls"? Don't know about evil, but troll definately fits. -- Tom 21:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
|
(undent)I'll agree with Kelly and LedRush. Except I'd like to point out that there is no Willie Horton here; no rape victim in Wasilla is known to have come forward or lodged any complaint with anyone, saying that she was billed. No news article or government record indicates that any victim in Wasilla was ever billed (though insurance companies were evidently billed), so it's understandable why no outraged victims came forward to complain to then-Mayor Palin about having been billed. There's no indication she became aware of this issue during her time as mayor., the notoriety of this matter is not comparable to the Horton matter. And, Dukakis had personally vetoed a bill to ban furloughs for first-degree murderers, saying that it would “cut the heart out of efforts of inmate rehabilitation.” [5] Where is Palin’s statement supporting billing victims for rape kits?
It's hard to see why we should hang Fannon’s position around Palin’s neck. Fannon said that the proposed legislation would prevent rapists themselves from being billed, which is a perfectly normal sentiment. Fannon also acknowledged billing insurance companies, but did not acknowledge billing victims. There is no indication that Palin was involved in any of this. Ferrylodge ( talk) 00:15, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)"00 CS FOR SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 270(HES) 01 "An Act relating to payment for certain examinations in cases of sexual assault." 02 BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF ALASKA: 03 * Section 1. AS 18.68 is amended by adding a new section to read: 04 Sec. 18.68.040. Sexual assault victim may not be required to pay for 05 examination. A law enforcement agency, health care facility, or other entity may not 06 require a victim of sexual assault under AS 11.41.410 - 11.41.425 who is 16 years of 07 age or older to pay, directly or indirectly, through health insurance or any other means, 08 for the costs of examination of the victim necessary for 09 (1) collecting evidence using the sexual assault examination kit under 10 AS 18.68.010 or otherwise; or 11 (2) determining whether a sexual assault has occurred. "
Very obviously? It might have been one of the reasons. Your claim to know for certain is more than just mistaken. It is not logical. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I have to say, again, that is not a certainty. This argument is over the factual basis of two conjectures. I do agree with you insofar as deletion of the mention of HB 270 and Fannon's quotes about the cost and the charging. Insertion of the quote about his brand new idea that he had just that week thought of, or during the interview for all we know, after it turned out -he- had to pay, of charging someone other than rape victims, is completely out of context in its current usage. Its current usage is completely out of the question. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
His quotes, as you well know, are the proof that victims were charged. It is pointless even trying to remove it, as it is quite obviously the primary evidence for the case. You would be laughed out of any hearing on it. I am interested to hear of why you have changed your position on those quotes, Ferrylodge. When I first came to this article, you were at great pains to include as much as possible about Fannon and what he said as you possibly could, to the extent of adding his quotes to what is normally the spot for citation clarification, and which ended up looking more like footnotes. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Not any more. Currently it says, "Palin appointed<ref name="WasMuniCode"/> [[Mayoralty of Sarah Palin#Police matters|Charles Fannon]] to replace Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon later did not agree with new legislation preventing police departments from billing adult rape victims or their health insurance for evidence collection kits,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2000/05/23/news.txt |title=Knowles signs sexual assault bill |publisher=Frontiersman |first=Jo C. |last=Goode |date=May 23, 2000 |accessdate=2008-11-09}}</ref> stating that the Wasilla police had sometimes billed victims' health insurance in the past. An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed this policy. It still needs work, as I mistakenly picked up the version that existed at my last edit, forgetting that people had already messed it up by then. I wanted to take it back to the version that was on the page for a month or so. Someone has been trying to make some obscure point by adding 'later' and such. The 'later did not agree' part in particular was something I had been wanting to fix before all this started; when you keep messing with the edits, I don't have time to set things right. And of course the SPT thing relies for its notability on a negative proof. As it is not true that finding no evidence means that Palin did not support the policy, the sentence has no notability. No one so far has been able to wrap their head around that one. Ask yourselves, does this prove that Palin did not support the policy? It does not. So if it doesn't mean that, what exactly does it mean? Only the implication that it in fact means anything keeps it going. Anyways, even if you don't understand it, someone else will, I am not bothered about that. Just prefer to get you on board if possible. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
What a load. The most egregious thing is that the victims got either a bill straight from the source, or got an item on their statement from the insurance company, reminding them of the rape, as the expert in the Committees pointed out. The money is incidental, it is the emotional impact. All this dreck about insurance is completely beside the point in the first place. That's a new low, and no surprise it came from that scumpit SPT.
I really think it is about time you considered that the difference between a person being personally sent the bill and their insurance company being sent the bill is no more than matter of them having sent their hard earned cash to the insurance company; a person's insurance is their asset, that they paid for. I first mentioned this in October. The insured person is charged; note that the law specifically states, "A law enforcement agency, health care facility, or other entity may not require a victim of sexual assaulta victim of sexual assault ... to pay, directly or indirectly, through health insurance or any other means," See, they say 'a victim...pay', even when it is via insurance. Also, the reason for specifying insurance was based on a narrow interpretation of Fannon's statement. There is the possibility he meant, "tried to bill", as in, when we weren't able to bill the insurers, we had to bill the victims. And although you don't know that he didn't, and I don't know that he did, there is the possibility. So the language should reflect that victims were charged for three reasons; the Legislature considers a charge to the insurer as 'requiring the victim to pay'; we don't know that Fannon only billed insurance; a bill to the insurer is a charge to the insuree in any case.
It is true that there was no specific mention of Wasilla, but there was a mention of Mat-Su Valley among other areas. And neither was Wasilla excluded as a place where it happened. Wasilla is 50% of the population of Mat-Su Valley, once you exclude Palmer, whose police chief, in the Fannon interview story, said he would 'never charge' in very strong terms. Plus Fannon said he charged. It's obvious they meant Wasilla, and were just being discrete, or being seen to be discrete, as far as I am concerned.
Anarchangel (
talk)
11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it has never been as bad as this. Unless you mean, when it was utterly deleted. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, check that sentence. No consensus needed to remove? You might want to amend that statement. You are confusing need for consensus with the burden of proof. The burden of proof for inclusion lies on the included material, which is why the negative proof of the SPT is OUTTAHERE. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Check WP:BLP about contentious material and the like. It is up to those who wish to INCLUDE to provide proof. Absent that, there is an obligation to remove. Collect ( talk) 13:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
An unbacked assertion, in lieu of concession. Some facts are presented, that seems indisputable. Your statement is even now, as the conversation ensues, being disputed, 'by' the current conversation. How can you expect it to be considered a statement of fact?
I would agree that it wasn't a consensus as it is known by
WP:CONSENSUS, but then I am not entirely convinced we mean the same thing by that word, F. You have certainly never used it as it is described on that page. It was a truce. And as this page goes, that's not too shabby, and we must respect as much as possible what vestiges of WP rules are to be found here.
Anarchangel (
talk)
11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)"I can’t imagine any police chief, big city or small, who would take on the entire State Legislature on a bill that passed unanimously and not mention to their mayor that they’re doing this,” Mr. Croft said. Even if he didn’t inform her, the newspaper article would have been hard for her to miss." and also "I find it hard to believe that for six months a small town, a police chief, would lead the fight against a statewide piece of legislation receiving unanimous support and the mayor not know about it," and also "It's incomprehensible to me that this could be a rogue police chief and not a policy decision. It lasted too long and it was too high-profile,"... see also the NYT opinion piece which opined that even if she didn't know, she owed voters an answer on the issue, as she was asking to be elected VP and presenting her credentials as mayor of Wasilla as evidence of her leadership experience. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 02:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
In this above argument, we have seen:
charged.
Anyone have anything to add? I haven't gotten to conclusions or disputed statements yet, but it's quittin' time. Anyway, by this hopefully you've got an idea of how this should be run. Point, counterpoint, note all the results, til we arrive at a Consensus.
The WP:EQ points are back up in the Post-election information section, as they were deleted in this last round of Archiving. Anarchangel ( talk) 11:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
To my mind, it is completely 100% unacceptable for this article to mention anything about billing victims. There was a concerted attempt in the blogosphere to confuse billing victims with billing insurance companies: "Bloggers have portrayed it as a heartless rule seeking money from rape victims, but they have neglected to mention that the policy seems to have been aimed more at getting money from insurance companies than from victims." [11]
There is zero evidence that Wasilla ever billed a victim. There is zero evidence that Palin even knew the town was billing insurance companies, and less than zero evidence that she conspired to bill any victims. It's simply not appropriate to mention in this article a horrible, disgusting billing practice that occurred in Juneau (not Wasilla), thereby sliming Palin in the process. I don't care how long this article mentioned billing victims, the fact is it shouldn't be in this article. At most, we can mention billing insurance companies. Otherwise, it's an egregious BLP violation, guilt by association, WP:Undue weight, original research, POV, and a whole bunch of other acronyms that I can get into if you like. Ferrylodge ( talk) 20:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Just a reminder to assume good faith and be nice. I don't actually care if you really truly are agf'ing; but if you parse your posts as though you were the end effect is virtually the same. Demanding apologies, accusing others of deliberate falsehoods, etc are unhelpful. I will start removing uncivil posts if you cannot learn to moderate your tone (this is a blanket message to all who have become a little heated.) KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Try the video link. It is in the first line of the video report. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, ok, fine, you answered Kelly's point, I answered Kelly's point and her false analogy combined. And the issue of not answering rebuttals is a long standing one. In case you haven't seen it, Kelly, it was addressed at the beginning of the Palin quote section. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Another false analogy. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
The problem with Factchecker's arguments, and all arguments on this subject (of course including mine), is that it comes down to a matter of opinion, not some clearly objective "yes" or "no" answer. In his opinion it's relevant to her notability. In mine it's not because I don't believe that there is evidence that she knew of this issue or that it was relevant to her political history. While it has been mentioned in reliable sources, so have lawsuits about Obama not being a natural born citizen. In my mind, it is clearly off topic and the mere inclusion of this type of inflammatory innuendo is a violation of our BLP standards. Alas, this policy, like almost all, is rarely cut and dry in its interpretation. I honestly belive both sides of this issue have clearly stated their reasons numerous times, and both sides can be defended, and we seem to be at an impass. That's why we agreed on the consensus language above. LedRush ( talk) 03:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Should we move discussion of the rape kit thingy to Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard? Kelly hi! 02:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
It's a minority criticism, not a fringe theory, as I think is pretty clearly indicated by WP:Fringe, but knock yourself out. Please go ahead and give notice here if you start a discussion on that noticeboard to get it removed. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 02:27, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
This would be fringy if any allegation that Palin is pro-rape were made, or if any Willie Horton level of exageration was made of it. However, is the CEO at Merryll Lynch responsible for massive failure? Is anyone in a decision making decision ever responsible for anything, including poor leadership and management decisions and complete lack of oversight? I think this is what is getting lost in the shuffle. Jimmuldrow ( talk) 02:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the fact that victims were charged for their own rape kits in Wasilla is not a fringe theory, as the Fannon quote and CNN article prove. It does not speak well of your time on this page, as evidenced by your user page, that you are not familiar with those facts. I suggest not ignoring them again. I have an interest in acquainting myself with the appeal process and a nice low learning curve is very appealing. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain why the rape kit thing belongs in Sarah Palin, as opposed to Wasilla, Alaska, History of Alaska, United States presidential election, 2008 or some other more general article? Kelly hi! 03:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Kelly mentioning Factchecker's experience is close to an attack - it's completely irrelevant and you were obviously saying it as a way of disregarding his points. Kelly and Factchecker: both of you might want to take a step back - this argument seems to be getting a little politicized. What we need to do is to find sources that directly comment on the Palin issue. If there are enough sources, i.e. if the topic is notable, it should be mentioned. Controversy surrounding Palin's alleged beliefs is relevant to the article as her notability exists outside the realm of the 2008 presidential race; as the governor of a state her beliefs are relevant, and therefore a belief that she is alleged to have is relevant if there has been significant news coverage (and if there has been significant news coverage, to my understanding WP:FRINGE would not apply, as it is not a matter of whether many people believe Palin wanted to charge rape victims, it is a matter of whether there was significant coverage of this alleged belief - and the latter is what would be mentioned in the article). My word is obviously not final, so I don't mean to distract too much from the debate, I'm just saying that compiling sources might give us a place to start.-- daniel folsom 04:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
With respect, Daniel, note who is initiating each exchange. WP:EQ recommends that assertions be answered. What's missing is conceding when points are made. Anarchangel ( talk) 05:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Writegeist has also been here the whole time, and Jimmuldrow edited a lot recently. Greekparadise was writing in favor of it when I first got here in early October. Not an exhaustive list by any means. We get a lot of support from IPs and people who come in and post two or three times and then leave. Probably they don't realize it's a siege.
But that is all peripheral. What matters is reaching consensus. You have an opportunity to start, above, by conceding that there is in fact evidence that victims were charged in Wasilla.
Anarchangel (
talk)
21:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
I can see that the rape kit section is once again being mediated by edit war rather than by discussion. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 02:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
The Rape Kit must be included in the article. Given the history on this topic, any attempt to remove it is a deliberate and flagrant attempt to violate consensus if any of those attempting to remove it were involved in previous consensus. I will immediately escalate to mediation if it is removed. Manticore55 ( talk) 05:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I suggest everyone ignore and move past the several posts above. Work with your fellow editors to build consensus, Manticore; do not accuse them of ill motives or make ultimatums. Collect, please do not escalate but rather attempt to calm the situation, ok? And Factchecker, accusing others of lying is beyond unhelpful; I would appreciate it if you would strike your accusation. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
"Personal remark" in full.: "I will stop, but I think singling me out for a single infraction belies the more widespread abuse to which I have been subjected, with nary a comment by you"-Factchecker atyourservice Anarchangel ( talk) 21:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC) I can attest to this. So can the record of this very page, without even having to go to archives. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
After reading this article which says that rape victims in North Carolina were billed for evidence kits until recently, and that rape victims in Illinois, Georgia, and Arkansas are continuing to be billed, I looked at a few random biographies of executive and legislative politicians from those states - and can find no mention of their states' rape kit policies in their biographies. Why the disparity? Kelly hi! 20:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Just a dump of some evidence links regarding the rape kit controversy... Kelly hi! 21:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
1. SART was an operation allowed to use the City of Wasilla police facilities. Their charges to the hospital are not relevant, and as one might expect from a biased blog, are used in a misleading way. It is made up to look like an official bill but it isn't. I forgot this even existed, it was so obviously fabricated.
2. Opinion piece. Its first opinion runs along the lines of, although Wrong A was done in this case, Wrong A was done all the time, so why is everyone complaining?
3. This is at least based on fact. It attempts to gloss over the mention of Mat-Su Valley by rating it by size, rather than population. As noted above, Wasilla was half the population of the Mat-Su Valley once you take out the second biggest town, Palmer, whose police chief vowed he would never charge. To say nothing of the fact that the point is moot as Fannon already had said he charged. Slam dunk all over the debunk. Del Smith the desk jockey at Safety, speaking for police departments all over the state that he had quite obviously never visited, let alone supervised, was contradicted by both other witnesses in that they all reported victims were charged. Not content with reporting the fact that the other two witnesses at the Hearings told that hospitals charged, the article adds "not police stations", which the witnesses did not and would not have said, as their field of expertise did not include that.
4. Naff link. Better one with all the committees' links on one page, above.
5. Interesting. Is this to be considered proof that this compensation was readily available and widely known? Or that Fannon was incompetent in not advising victims of their options as well as charging them? It seems sure that he was less competent than the room full of Palin supporters with an internet connection it took to track this down, or he would have mentioned it in the Frontiersman interview. Shame they weren't there when victims were charged.
Anarchangel (
talk)
06:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Anarchangel ( talk) 06:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Im prepared to pay every dime in an investigation. As long as I am chief, I would never bill a victim, Zager said." Frontiersman
The letter from, you claim, the police chief, to a blogger, is manufactured evidence after the controversy started, let alone after the bill was passed and other time frames that have been brought up to show irrelevance ad nauseum. If it confirms anything it is that the police dept. had a backlog of charges that it felt required to settle with the hospital after the law was passed. I had, and still have, considerably better evidence that police depts. were handing along the charges to the hospitals, and therefore, most likely the job of collecting evidence. Which can't be very good for the reliability of the evidence. There is no way you can slice this and not come up with something rotten. And we haven't even gotten to the takeover of the hospital. Anarchangel ( talk) 20:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
1. I do wish to retract. You did not describe it as from the police chief. It is the original label of the link that describes it as from the police chief. I made a mistake.
2.I find my use of the word "fabricated", in the initial comment on the links, regrettable. That was rhetoric. However, you are cherry picking. I did not refer to it as fabricated in the reply to your edit, but 'manufactured'.
The form and content of the letter were misleading; the source would therefore seem to be either biased or incompetent. In this way the appearance of an official document is, 'manufactured'; it is not even a copy, merely a list. The conclusions drawn from it in the accompanying article are erroneous, and the forum in which they appear, excruciatingly biased. The veracity of the information in the letter remains unclear.
Anarchangel (
talk)
22:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)