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Previously removed. I plan to restore it. Not asking 'if' there are objections, that is not the purpose of discussion, and I would be naiive to assume there weren't any. Asking 'what' objections there are, and what basis there is for them. Pretty much going to ignore the usual round of un-backed assertions of 'weight', and 'main article', due to abuse of same. 'Editor bias', as I have previously shown, is never an issue, only bias in the material. These decisions of Palin's have far reaching implications and consequences.
"She brought suit to overturn the listing of [[polar bear]]s under the federal [[Endangered Species Act]],<ref>{{Citation | title = Alaska: Suit Filed Over Polar Bears | newspaper = New York Times| pages = A19| year = 2008| date = August 6, 2008| url = http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/06brfs-SUITFILEDOVE_BRF.html?_r=1}}</ref> and also opposed strengthening protections for [[Beluga (whale)|beluga whales]] in Alaska’s [[Cook Inlet]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837868,00.html|title=Palin on the Environment: Far Right|date=2008-09-01|accessdate=2008-09-04|publisher=Time|author=Bryan Walsh}}</ref>"
Anarchangel ( talk) 20:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Seems ok to me (assuming the cite checks out). Could we lengthen the sentence to include her stated reason for doing so (assuming she ever gave one)? This issue doesn't seem particularly important to me, though, and I would think that one sentence on this is enough. LedRush ( talk) 00:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
As the governor's office also issued a press release stating reasons for its actions, it would be irresponsible not to note the reasons given. And the whole issue is not really one of specific biographical interest in the first place.
Collect (
talk)
17:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
So add them. /Ignore ad nauseum weight assertion. Anarchangel ( talk) 00:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Consensus Three guidelines from WP:ETIQUETTE aka WP:EQ are particularly useful:
It says flat out, do not. Not, it is best not to, or it is good to respond to questions, or, responding to questions is part of the process.
In other words, respond to responses.
And that doesn't mean, respond to some relatively unimportant aspect related to it, nor does it mean, respond with a new issue, it means, aid the process of definition of the consensus by defining the boundaries of your argument. Faced with these guidelines being ignored, go to arbitration. Additions? Anarchangel ( talk) 18:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC) This is intended to focus attention on these three rules, as key to beginning a consensus-building process. It is not intended to focus attention away from other rules such as WP:NPA or WP:AGF. Anarchangel ( talk) 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Suggest some portion of the Palin reply to the Frontiersman question, if not the entire exchange, would be more notable than the reply of her spokesperson.
Frontiersman: "During your tenure as mayor in 2000, then police chief Charlie Fannon commented in a May 23, 2000 Frontiersman article about legislation Gov. Tony Knowles signed protecting victims of sexual assault from being billed for rape kits collected by police as part of their investigations. Fannon revealed then that Knowles’ decision would cost Wasilla $5,000 to $14,000 a year, insinuating that the department’s policy was to bill victims for this testing. During your tenure as Mayor, what was the police department and city’s standard operating procedure in recovering costs of rape kits? Were any sexual assault victims ever charged for this testing while you were mayor?"
Sarah Palin: "The entire notion of making a victim of a crime pay for anything is crazy. I do not believe, nor have I ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test. As governor, I worked in a variety of ways to tackle the problem of sexual assault and rape, including making domestic violence a priority of my administration."
FRONTIERSMAN EXCLUSIVE: Palin responds to questions Published on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:39 AM AKDT. Accessed 3rd Dec, 08.
Anarchangel (
talk)
15:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Actually, there were just two questions: "During your tenure as Mayor, what was the police department and city’s standard operating procedure in recovering costs of rape kits? Were any sexual assault victims ever charged for this testing while you were mayor?"
She answered neither. This was her opportunity to say, quite simply, "The policy was to bill the insurance company of the victim. That was Charles Fannon's idea... I had nothing to do with it," instead of evading the actual questions asked.
Anyway, I'd say it's fair to include those two questions as long as we're including her response to the questions. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 16:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
So what is wrong with what's in the article already? It establishes what we know (that Fannon grumbled about the law after it was passed), and that the SPT found there was no evidence she was involved in his practice. If one wishes to conclude from those facts that she was a detached leader and should have known about what Fannon was doing, that's their prerogative. If one wishes to conclude that she actually knew about his practice and was just being coy about it, that's also their prerogative. But neither of those conclusions is supported by fact in reliable sources, and we need to limit ourselves to those facts. Fcreid ( talk) 23:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I break the thin ice that your argument rests upon; your argument is nothing but conflation of a charge of murder with the Frontiersman's charges. It is neither the interviewer's fault nor ours, the observers, that, to follow your analogy, Mr. Doe is suspected of killing Mr. Boddy. It isn't entrapment, or dirty tricks, or unfair in any way to ask the suspected Mr. Doe if he killed Mr. Boddy, but it is evasion, if I may finish the analogy you inexplicably left unfinished, for Mr. Doe to ignore the question and say that he abhors killing and has in fact started up a program to rehabilitate killers. This is true no matter how many other politicians evade questions, how much they evade them, or how routinely they do it. Anarchangel ( talk) 20:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
White Queenism? What? Being helpful to Alice albeit in a cryptic way? (guilty) Claiming to have done 'six impossible things before breakfast'? (not usually) Living backwards in time, like Merlin? (newp) Of great speed, outdistancing the White King? (um,) Or eventually turning into a sheep? What do you mean? Anarchangel ( talk) 22:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
The CNN vid report that includes the Croft interview begins with a statement that they talked to people in Wasilla who said that Wasilla PD charged. Fannon, for crissakes, said he charged. Enough of this, only hospitals charged, nonsense, please.
You mention there was the testimony of only one woman from Juneau. It wasn't because there was only one woman charged; Hugonin herself mentioned that the same thing had occurred in the Kenai peninsula, Anchorage, Mat-Su Valley and Juneau, for example. I believe it was because the committee did not see fit to give this more time. You may agree when you look at all four meetings; Hugonin ended up giving pretty much the same testimony at least three times, and the other woman twice, so anything they can do to save time, I guess. Also see the original text of AS 11.71.900. One 'test case' in which a man was carrying a concealed weapon in his own bar is used as an illustration of something that happens repeatedly, to show the reasons for the bill.
He is implying that she knew. He can't say that she knew, but he can say that it is unlikely in his opinion. Wasn't it Collect who first suggested that this was in some way not an accusation? You have more sense than that, I think. Anarchangel ( talk) 22:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. While I agree with your case overall, I doubt that a case for slander can be brought up for so small an offense. Anarchangel ( talk) 22:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Overall, you seem eager to discount Croft entirely based on absolutely nothing except your opinion or feelings that he's lying. No, really not at all. It's more the lack of historical evidence to support his statements, and a very small leap of logic to understand them. First, one would expect there to be some evidence of a six-month long battle--a newspaper article, some legislative minutes or whatever--yet we have only the Frontiersman as a contemporaneous mention of Fannon's opposition. (Ironically, had it not been for that Frontiersman article discovered during the Obama campaign, Croft would never even have been called to be interviewed about the matter.) Next, during the course of this "fight", why would the state legislator and sponsor of the bill never have contacted the mayor of this Alaska town to resolve it? Certainly Croft would have escalated to the mayor and behind if he were getting stonewalled by Fannon, no? Finally, in view of the inexplicable event of never asking the mayor directly, why would Croft eight years later state "I can't imagine how she didn't know"? Again, there are so many holes in the historical record on this issue (and we're talking 2000 and not 1900) that make me very circumspect that perspective wasn't a bit distorted eight years later in the heat of a campaign. Fcreid ( talk) 18:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
When I look at the diff of my edit, I see, on the right hand side at the top, Line 822. Then section: Palin quote in grey. Then Line 985. Ending at Parodies of Sarah Palin in grey at the bottom. Does yours look different?
Should have been fairly obvious, but Kilkenny is covering up for herself. She isn't covering up for Palin, SPT is covering up for Palin by not noting they were colleagues, not only in the sense I described earlier, but that their ad hominem assessment of her testimony as coming from a 'critic' would be weakened by SPT admitting that they worked together.
I don't introduce the Huffington Post as reliable. It has always been considered reliable. To my knowledge, only Ferrylodge has ever suggested otherwise. Et tu?
"the reason you're not likely to find anything contemporaneous is because this issue is and always has been Campaign 2008 nonsense."
Nonsense, no. I concede that much of the information comes from 2008. There is a whole discussion we could get into there, about the merits of information from a later date. It most certainly does not exclude any of the information, but obviously newer information should be used if it is found. The Fannon interview, for example, comes from 2000, and the Palin interview directly deals with events of 96-00 by interviewing someone who was there, at that time, in that office. The spokeswoman's testimony, which I attempted to replace, is none of those things. So in fact, if being as close to the center of an incident is truly an issue for you, then you have at least one reason to support the Palin quote.
Frontiersman:
The forensic exam is just one part of the equation. Id like to see the courts make these people pay restitution for these things, Fannon said."
From the same article, Tony Knowles: "We would never bill the victim of a burglary for fingerprinting and photographing the crime scene, or for the cost of gathering other evidence. Nor should we bill rape victims just because the crime scene happens to be their bodies."
[1]
Published on Monday, May 22, 2000 9:00 PM AKDT
"The town sherriff had no business billing his expense (for the rape investigation kit) to anyone's private medical insurance. It has nothing to do with rape or crime or sensitivity. It's a matter of appropriate responsibility of government agencies."
Agree Fannon had no business charging. Disagree, it has everything to do with rape and crime and sensitivity. Also, none of the above arguments on either side, after the discussion of the SPT & HuffPo, have anything to do with improving the article. Well, they do in that if people believed them as you appear to, they would wonder what all the fuss was about, I suppose. But I have disproved them all with exactly the same cites as this time, many times. How come you haven't gotten it yet? Please would you confine yourself to discussion of the material?Not that it concerns the article, but have you not considered that the billing of PDs will continue even should this 'instituting medical insurance as communal property' take place?"that didn't stick because there is no evidence she had anything to do with it"
Ignore 'campaign smear'. It stuck. I concede that that had more to do with agendas than evidence. You wish to keep out of the article the only evidence available that shows that she either knew of the policy or was not acting competently with regard to the policy, though. That is what this section is about. You wrote hundreds of words and not one of them is about that.
Anarchangel (
talk)
06:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
When I have made 4 edits that are separated by intervening type, amidst a sea of other type, and I get an edit conflict of one passage, it is more difficult to add my 4 comments separately than it is to add the one to my version. So I copy my version of the page, and paste it, after having copied and pasted the single comment to add at the end. Is there no way that you can view the page normally? Edit conflict is a common occurrence; it happened twice again today.
Agenda is none of editors' concern, as has been pointed out previously, although not as many times as agenda has been used as a argument; oftentimes I have merely ignored it. I will continue to point this out whenever I feel good about it; I am most certainly not obligated to address this or any of your other would-be arguments that fail to follow WP procedure. I have already conceded that there most of the stories are from 2008. The SPT article picks at the carcasses of 2008 articles for whatever bits it finds to its taste, and yet you claim to prefer timeliness. You 'concede' that Palin wasn't aware? You're a little unclear on the concept of concede there, F. The track of subverting the process that you're on goes straight thru RFC on an express train to Arb. But by all means, carry on creating more documentation.
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Only one thing in here to address. See above for everything else. Or possibly below, as these are new additions to a tertiary threadlet. ...And the one thing is: Pretty much, we have access to the same evidence. I contend that your assertions' interpretation of it, such as maintaining that 'no evidence' is notable, is faulty. So if you find there is a lack of evidence in a particular area, be assured that I am aware of this, but don't take that to mean that we interpret those facts or the lack of them to mean the same thing. So, a qualified concession. Can't really see what I would get out of Arb at this point. My point was that, after I had made an effort to introduce the procedure of making concessions, your very first 'concession' ever was a subversion of that process. I should add, I am disappointed, to what I said before. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:21, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I would say the discussion has gone full circle, but it is more like, turned around and gone back over old unrelated ground. The Palin quote and the two questions address the issue of whether or not and to what extent Palin was involved. They show that we can't know, because Palin won't tell. The preamble isn't necessary, forget it. Its usefulness as a precis is weakened by its length. Two questions, 29 words I think it was, and the Palin quote instead of the first part of the Palin spokeswoman's quote. We should keep the second part of the spokeswoman's quote, as was done in the Mayoralty article. Notability is from notoriety.
I will not accept the old order of: suggestion, unsupported assertions against, and then endless wide-ranging debate with the only opposer here who gives a damn enough to actually answer assertions. If you don't contribute, you don't count. The opinions are two to one in favor, and even if he bothers to show up, F still isn't covering all the assertions. Material inserted.
Inevitably, it will be reverted, with something in the page summary about no consensus, by someone who didn't even bother coming to the discussion to see if there is a consensus, because they only come to the discussion to type a single contentious unsupported assertion one sentence long every week or so. Anarchangel ( talk) 23:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
There is no consensus here, and I have not seen one from Oct 7th to this day. I don't think anyone here knows what one is, or how to go about achieving it, despite my attempts to quote WP:EQ as an illustration. Consensus is not achieved by a tally. That's a vote. Consensus is the result of discussion that considers each person's assertions, and by a process of eliminating assertions that do not stand, arrives at a definitive conclusion. In lieu of challenges to my assertions, and having challenged all others, my assertions stand. That's not consensus either, but it is a damn sight nearer to it than, 'we all say no, so no'. In short, if you don't show up to the discussion, you are not part of the consensus. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Note that discussion has recommenced around a topic of your choosing, which is argument about "silly assertions" and "insulting". This is not a step forward. I urge everyone to talk about the material, the meaning and procedure of consensus, anything that might actually lead to improving the article. Anarchangel ( talk) 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Just to make sure I understand, the current consensus is that we remove all "material" related to "rape kits" and Wasilla from this current bio and possibly include that material in a bio about Fannon or a Palin subarticle as it currently is, correct? Thanks for everybodies help!! -- Tom 18:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I have made many arguments for why the info shouldn't be included, as have many others. Unfortunately, you would have to be a longer term contributor to know this as they are in the archives. Just because all editors don't run out and respond to walls of text every 5th day when someone tries to undo the fragile peace we spend countless hours crafting doesn't mean our opinions don't matter. LedRush ( talk) 00:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
"The info"? That sounds awfully inclusive. We were discussing the insertion of the Palin interview. Your objections are in the archives? Now that makes it objection to entirely different material, or objection to the article as a whole. For someone who deleted material with a claims to be representing 'consensus', that is at least two very substantive anamolies. Stop me if I go off track: you're opposed to inclusion of the rape kit material in general, and just thought any bit you could take out would be lending a helping hand? Anarchangel ( talk)
"I will readily change my position on inclusion if that fact is suppressed" : Holding inclusion of the three sentences for a ransom that isn't supported by any facts, and never will be, as by definition, 'no evidence' can never be supported by facts. Wiki editors bear the burden of proof. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
So let's delete the whole thing and you guys can try and demonstrate why the rape kit "controversy" even belongs at all in a BLP when such living person has no provable connection to it. If you convince people here and your insertion of language gains acceptance, we'll include it. Wait, we already did that? And now people are greatly expanding the section? Oh yeah... LedRush ( talk) 22:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I believe the following was the consensus insertion (though I admit it is a little awkward):
Palin appointed [1] Charles Fannon to replace Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon later opposed a state law preventing police departments from billing rape victims or their health insurance for evidence collection kits. [2] Fannon said that the Wasilla police had sometimes billed victims' health insurance in the past; Stambaugh said that under his tenure the city had paid. [3] An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed the policy. [4]
End Quote. LedRush ( talk) 22:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Led. Tom already tried that. Your yearning for the good old days of extremely bad behaviour, that attempted to bypass and even subvert WP procedures, and was resoundingly unpopular to boot, is noted.
The Stambaugh info was inserted in place of a large amount of text by Coemgenus: "(Summary:(this is way too much weight on one topic, and way too long for a summary-style article -- let's get consensus before re-adding (or not)) Revision as of 22:51, 3 November 2008)" I looked for your comments in the archives from that period on, and this is the first time you've mentioned it. So I concede that you have not expressly supported it, but on the other hand, you have never objected to it until now. If you're looking for something to do, there are quite a few other pages out there.
Coemgenus' edit
The Stambaugh material was good enough to keep me from objecting to the SPT dreck for many weeks. Coemgenus is no Palin basher; he trimmed the material, pro and con, down to two sentences, and he was right; he cut right to the heart of things, past all the back and forth of 'Fannon: I am fiscally responsible', 'USA Today: victims pay a deductible', 'SPT: no evidence (gotta laugh at the repeat MO) anyone paid such a deductible', and SPT again 'no evidence', which he kept, while trashing the Palin quote. Yep, he was the one who replaced
"When asked by the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman what the policy had been and whether any victims had been required to pay, Palin stated: "I do not believe, nor have I ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test."<ref name=PalinResponds">{{cite news |title=FRONTIERSMAN EXCLUSIVE: Palin responds to questions |publisher=Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman |date=September 30, 2008 |url=http://frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/30/breaking_news/doc48e1e1294d418713321438.txt |accessdate=[[2008-10-07]] }}</ref>.
with the SPT 'no evidence'
negative proof fallacy. This of course is where I begin to disagree with his edit, and even more so, the outrageous gallons of dismissive whitewash in the wording "There is no proof Palin had anything to do with this matter". Factchecker changed it, and someone else changed it again, to its most recent form, which is considerably less obfuscating.
If I had been paying closer attention, I would have called for the Palin quote to replace the SPT story immediately. But o well, someone else, again, basically had already done it for me. So you see, the history of your SPT material includes the fact that editors from both sides of the issue didn't and presumably still don't much care for it, preferring something a little closer to Palin's own words. It is a point particularly worth considering that all this time, you have been arguing that a quote directly from Palin and the question that prompted it are less valuable than a quote from her spokeswoman. Or do I have your concession on that point, which is why you have switched to the Stambaugh material?
Coemgenus seems to have thought the Stambaugh phrase more noteworthy than five other pieces of info on the topic. I think it shows an irreplacable part of the continuum: Stambaugh paid for kits, and was fired. Palin replaced him with Fannon, who charged for them. You say you think "I don't see how that's relevant to Palin's biography given our closing statement"; the closing statement I presume is the disputed SPT phrase. Even if that were included, they are about two different things. If you are giving the closing statement as evidence, how does it pertain to the Stambaugh statement? What is it evidence of? And then you repeat that it has no relevance, again without providing reasons.
The Stambaugh phrase needs to stay, and the Palin quote needs to stay.
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Anarchangel said: Your [LedRush] yearning for the good old days of extremely bad behaviour, that attempted to bypass and even subvert WP procedures, and was resoundingly unpopular to boot, is noted.
This statemtn is inaccurate, insulting, and offensive. Please apologize as their is no evidence that I tried to bypass or subvert WP procedures or engaged in bad behavior on this issue. LedRush ( talk) 16:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Let's assume that we take your interpretation of her answers. (I don't, but let's play pretend for a moment). Why would we include a non-answer in a BLP? Why would we include a statement about someone not directly answering a question to some small matter in a small town? How would this be relevent to a biography of a person of her stature unless we are assuming that she knew about it and is covering it up? Because that is an assumption we cannot make in a BLP, the info is not notable and cannot be included. LedRush ( talk) 03:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Concerning "Generally you don't include the previous question to a quote, just the quote." et al: Articles are not required to be written like other articles, they are required to be written following WP rules. Therefore, the common form of inserting quotes is not relevant, only rules governing inserting quotes. There are no prohibitions of questions preceding answers in MOS:QUOTE; the subject is not mentioned. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Obviously not. Restoring Palin quote and question that prompted it. Present assertions against this previous wording with logical reasons, preferably cited. The cat's back, playtime's over. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
No solid reasons for your reversion. Sorry to point this out. Collect ( talk) 12:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Anarchangel, you're being kind of obtuse on this, and I will revert once more after I post this until you convince us it should be in there. The majority of editors feel that the mention of this should be within the agreed upon scope defined in our earlier consensus on the topic (before you ever arrived to edit here, I believe). The only reason you want a lengthy diatribe of this question and answer is because you hope to lead a reader to conclude that Palin was aware of or even involved in Fannon's practice because she didn't answer the questions to your satisfaction. That is tantamount to WP:OR and is disingenuous editing. Unless you can provide actual evidence she was involved in the matter, anything beyond the concise wording above constitutes WP:UNDUE weight on the matter. As far as the question/answer itself, you're equally wrong on your interpretation. Again, you assume the answer reflects some attempt on her part to hide involvement. In fact, her response to this series of "when did you stop beating your wife" style questions is absolutely appropriate. Would you have her respond with, "Yeah, that was Charlie Fannon's doing" or "Yeah, I was an oblivious mayor for not knowing about this"? Her answer was the only feasible one, i.e. any suggestion that she advocated charging rape victims is preposterous, and her record reflects that. Fcreid ( talk) 21:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The majority of students receive C's in school. Please show where they actually got the answers right and it is all a conspiracy. I showed that the SPT material was deficient, the Palin quote was straight from the source, and the questions were the most revealing detail of the entire affair. You have never shown that the material shouldn't be included. Quite obviously this could go on forever, and quite obviously, it should have ended with my insertion of the material. Might does not make right. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Collect wrote "No solid reasons for your reversion..."
Fcreid wrote, "... and I will revert once more..."
I didn't revert. I mistook your continued opposition as a sign that you had, and didn't check the History first. You are characterizing this as me making multiple reverts, yet in fact there has been only one: your revert of my version.
Fcreid: "The only reason you want a lengthy diatribe of this question and answer is because you hope to lead a reader to conclude that Palin was aware of or even involved in Fannon's practice because she didn't answer the questions to your satisfaction. That is tantamount to
WP:OR and is disingenuous editing."
My reasons for inclusion are quite separate from the included material, and I can make as many observations or assumptions about the material as I feel furthers the course of discussion on it; that is not OR, it is contributing to the discussion. I took great care to preface the material in a non-PoV way, and would never include my views on the reason she did not answer, in the article, as you can see above, in my reply to Buster 7, more than a day before your edit.
"her response to this series of "when did you stop beating your wife" style questions is absolutely appropriate...Would you have her respond with, "Yeah, that was Charlie Fannon's doing" or "Yeah, I was an oblivious mayor for not knowing about this"?"
You misrepresent the questions as misrepresenting the issue. You've limited my choice of responses for her, particularly with the "oblivious mayor" answer, but basically, yes. Why would she not answer?
Kelly wrote, with a depth and relevance I find is best described as 'fatuous': "Agree with Fcreid (and Collect) above"
Kelly, for what reasons and in what way do you agree? Do you have anything to add to the discussion?
Anarchangel (
talk)
00:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Again, the old cycle of Revert, add assertions bereft of supporting facts, ignore response and go on vacation. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC) What part of this is unclear? No one made any answer to my question. They revert, they come here and blither, I answer anyway, but they have already left. What do they imagine is going to happen? I'm going to wait around for them to change their mind? Accept that a bad argument plus more deletors equals having it your way? Lots have. Lots of good editors have been worn down by this. I won't be, ever. Get over thinking that. There is no consensus for not including it, as there are no assertions for not including it that haven't been at least challenged without the challenge being answered, if not refuted. Anarchangel ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I give up. We clearly have an editor here who has no intention of ever editing in good faith or cooperating in the discussion process. Some admin needs to deal with this. Fcreid ( talk) 01:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps HuffPo does bad stories, but I haven't seen one yet. The one I quoted sure isn't. The HuffPo article is indispensable because it prints facts that no one else included, well documented, with links from the article to material to cite it. Where do you get that? Only Wikipedia and HP. The SPT printed its favorite selection of facts that everyone else had already printed. Anarchangel ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Own comment removed Anarchangel ( talk) 08:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Own comment removed Anarchangel ( talk) 08:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I suspect the reality is that admins can be as biased as you are, but it's nice to think you might get a reality check. Either way, win or lose, my argument stands on the letter of record. It's all there in the archives, to say nothing of this section. Nothing in my edit is entirely new; it has all been in the article and then out again at some point. For example, the Huffington Post article: I was pretty green when Ferrylodge pretended that HP wasn't a reliable source, so there I go off looking in vain for info on that, instead of telling him what he could do with his misinformation and stopping the insert fluff/revert substance madness. This is just, all the chickens coming home to roost. By the way, I should thank you for stopping me from making a serious error on the Stambaugh guns thing; we were all reading the amendment wrongly. So that's why that's not in. And there is still the hospital story. I was hoping for more on that, but I still have more than you've seen; I have the original Alaska Supreme Court case, and it shows how Palin's pals padded the hospital board, paying $5 to get onto the hospital board, then electing their choice to be on the next board, which then elected, surprise surprise, Palin to be on the top board, which is how she stopped abortions there. They bought policy, and the Supreme Court slapped it down, again no surprise. It's all here Palin being on the board is in the USA Today printing of the AP 'As governor, Palin at times bonds church and state' article : "In that same period, she also joined a grass-roots, faith-based movement to stop the local hospital from performing abortions, a fight that ultimately lost before the Alaska Supreme Court...Records show she was elected to the nonprofit's board in 2000."
"VHA is a membership organization. Any adult may become a VHA member upon paying a five dollar application fee. Members who are residents of the Mat-Su Borough, denominated "general members," annually elect the Association Board. Abortion has been permitted in Alaska since 1970, when the state legislature passed the current abortion law. [Fn. 1] VHA permitted lawful abortion procedures at its facility from 1970 until 1992. [Fn. 2] In 1992 abortion opponents organized a campaign to enlarge the membership of VHA. In April 1992 a larger- than-usual membership elected the Association Board, which then elected the Operating Board. In September 1992 the Operating Board enacted a new policy on abortion. The policy prohibits abortions at the hospital unless (1) there is documentation by one or more physicians that the fetus has a condition that is incompatible with life; (2) the mother's life is threatened; or (3) the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest. All VHA Operating Board members supported this new policy. The Mat-Su Coalition for Choice, Dr. Susan Lemagie, and ten unnamed women (Coalition) filed suit against VHA and its executive director, seeking declaratory and injunctive relief." Etc. Merry Christmas. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Shelving the material immediately above for a bit until at least a couple of the Proposed Changes below are dealt with. If anyone has any comments, feel free, but since there hasn't been a reply for two days, I won't be holding my breath or checking this section every hour. Might be a good idea not to archive this section; the material above the Church and State material is directly related to a few of the Proposed changes. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Consensus has been a bone of contention througout this article since late August 2008.(Was there a Consensus to Fully protect just after Palin was announced?) I tried to find a thoughtful and educational contribution by SlRubenstein...so far unsuccessful. But this caught my eye...[ [6]]..not the one I'm searching for, but good advice.-- Buster7 ( talk) 07:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
okay the elections are over young trigg(shara palin and/or her husband) have retired from wikipedia can we edit this page now or ca —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.117.236 ( talk) 12:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
okay the elections are over young trigg(shara palin and/or her husband) have retired from wikipedia can we edit this page now or ca —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.117.236 (talk) 12:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Probably inappropriate (and inaccurate) to make insinuation towards the topic of this WP:BLP, but on your question I thought anyone with an account had editing rights in the semi-protect status. I don't see this article going to fully unprotected in the near-term. Too much vandalism. Fcreid (talk) 14:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Aw, c'mon, let's allow unrestricted editing by IPs. What's the worst that could happen!? Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 18:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC) Noticed a bit of edits from IP on the main article the past couple days, but it still indicates a semi-protected status... I thought that precluded IP editing. :-\ Fcreid (talk) 17:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Something has happened to the page protection - just log out and you will see that it is no longer semi-protected even though the lock icon is still in the article. Can someone please reprotect this article? It is already getting out of hand. WTucker (talk) 19:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC) I've renewed semi-protection for a month, based on the rate of IP vandalism.--agr (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
As a general point of information, aside from protecting the article, are these scurrilous editors immediately banned from Wikipedia? Is there a "3 strikes-'yer out" policy? Just curious. (After posting this I see that Bryan Asian etc. has been banned indefinetly)--Buster7 (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC) Wikipedia's approach to vandalism is to first encourage vandals to become legit contributors, so the process is gradual with warnings that escalate. See Wikipedia:Vandalism.--agr (talk) 04:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC) There is no inherent right of a vandal to vandalize three or four times before getting blocked after a long series of graduated warnings. Sometimes an "only warning" is posted after the first vandalism, if it is egregious defamation of a living person, or otherwise clearly damaging to Wikipedia. Many vandals are blocked after fewer than 3 or 4 graduated warnings. Some vandals are quite experienced and know all the angles. Edison (talk) 17:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youngtrigg(not sharapalin) ( talk • contribs)
Currently the article reads: "City of Wasilla Library records indicate that there was never a request for the library to remove the book and that no books were ever censored or banned."
However, this is misleading. The records don't "show that there was never a request," they simply "fail to show that a request was made."
There is a difference between records showing that something didn't happen and records failing to show that something did happen. The rhetoric of the former is very misleading and in fact is inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trooper9951 ( talk • contribs) 13:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
The official records are stated to be complete. They list all requests. They even list the names of the books involved. The book in question (Daddy's Roommate) is not on any such list. Ergo, there is a positive statement that this book was not requested to be removed or banned. This was, in fact, discussed at length in the past. As is the fact that no books were removed or banned at all. The statement in the article is therefore precisely accurate. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 13:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
"religious beliefs" is in double quotes in the WP article. In the cited article, from Time, it is a paraphrase. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books" is in quotes in the cited article, but obscured by qualifications and out of quotes on WP. The statement, "Palin stated in 2006 that she would not allow her personal religious beliefs to dictate her political positions" is either a complete fabrication, good faith but OR, or good faith but poorly cited, or some combination thereof. The cite from CNN says only "Her campaign says she doesn't mix her faith with government business". Anarchangel ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | → | Archive 50 |
Previously removed. I plan to restore it. Not asking 'if' there are objections, that is not the purpose of discussion, and I would be naiive to assume there weren't any. Asking 'what' objections there are, and what basis there is for them. Pretty much going to ignore the usual round of un-backed assertions of 'weight', and 'main article', due to abuse of same. 'Editor bias', as I have previously shown, is never an issue, only bias in the material. These decisions of Palin's have far reaching implications and consequences.
"She brought suit to overturn the listing of [[polar bear]]s under the federal [[Endangered Species Act]],<ref>{{Citation | title = Alaska: Suit Filed Over Polar Bears | newspaper = New York Times| pages = A19| year = 2008| date = August 6, 2008| url = http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/06brfs-SUITFILEDOVE_BRF.html?_r=1}}</ref> and also opposed strengthening protections for [[Beluga (whale)|beluga whales]] in Alaska’s [[Cook Inlet]].<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837868,00.html|title=Palin on the Environment: Far Right|date=2008-09-01|accessdate=2008-09-04|publisher=Time|author=Bryan Walsh}}</ref>"
Anarchangel ( talk) 20:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Seems ok to me (assuming the cite checks out). Could we lengthen the sentence to include her stated reason for doing so (assuming she ever gave one)? This issue doesn't seem particularly important to me, though, and I would think that one sentence on this is enough. LedRush ( talk) 00:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
As the governor's office also issued a press release stating reasons for its actions, it would be irresponsible not to note the reasons given. And the whole issue is not really one of specific biographical interest in the first place.
Collect (
talk)
17:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
So add them. /Ignore ad nauseum weight assertion. Anarchangel ( talk) 00:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Consensus Three guidelines from WP:ETIQUETTE aka WP:EQ are particularly useful:
It says flat out, do not. Not, it is best not to, or it is good to respond to questions, or, responding to questions is part of the process.
In other words, respond to responses.
And that doesn't mean, respond to some relatively unimportant aspect related to it, nor does it mean, respond with a new issue, it means, aid the process of definition of the consensus by defining the boundaries of your argument. Faced with these guidelines being ignored, go to arbitration. Additions? Anarchangel ( talk) 18:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC) This is intended to focus attention on these three rules, as key to beginning a consensus-building process. It is not intended to focus attention away from other rules such as WP:NPA or WP:AGF. Anarchangel ( talk) 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Suggest some portion of the Palin reply to the Frontiersman question, if not the entire exchange, would be more notable than the reply of her spokesperson.
Frontiersman: "During your tenure as mayor in 2000, then police chief Charlie Fannon commented in a May 23, 2000 Frontiersman article about legislation Gov. Tony Knowles signed protecting victims of sexual assault from being billed for rape kits collected by police as part of their investigations. Fannon revealed then that Knowles’ decision would cost Wasilla $5,000 to $14,000 a year, insinuating that the department’s policy was to bill victims for this testing. During your tenure as Mayor, what was the police department and city’s standard operating procedure in recovering costs of rape kits? Were any sexual assault victims ever charged for this testing while you were mayor?"
Sarah Palin: "The entire notion of making a victim of a crime pay for anything is crazy. I do not believe, nor have I ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test. As governor, I worked in a variety of ways to tackle the problem of sexual assault and rape, including making domestic violence a priority of my administration."
FRONTIERSMAN EXCLUSIVE: Palin responds to questions Published on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:39 AM AKDT. Accessed 3rd Dec, 08.
Anarchangel (
talk)
15:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Actually, there were just two questions: "During your tenure as Mayor, what was the police department and city’s standard operating procedure in recovering costs of rape kits? Were any sexual assault victims ever charged for this testing while you were mayor?"
She answered neither. This was her opportunity to say, quite simply, "The policy was to bill the insurance company of the victim. That was Charles Fannon's idea... I had nothing to do with it," instead of evading the actual questions asked.
Anyway, I'd say it's fair to include those two questions as long as we're including her response to the questions. Factchecker atyourservice ( talk) 16:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
So what is wrong with what's in the article already? It establishes what we know (that Fannon grumbled about the law after it was passed), and that the SPT found there was no evidence she was involved in his practice. If one wishes to conclude from those facts that she was a detached leader and should have known about what Fannon was doing, that's their prerogative. If one wishes to conclude that she actually knew about his practice and was just being coy about it, that's also their prerogative. But neither of those conclusions is supported by fact in reliable sources, and we need to limit ourselves to those facts. Fcreid ( talk) 23:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I break the thin ice that your argument rests upon; your argument is nothing but conflation of a charge of murder with the Frontiersman's charges. It is neither the interviewer's fault nor ours, the observers, that, to follow your analogy, Mr. Doe is suspected of killing Mr. Boddy. It isn't entrapment, or dirty tricks, or unfair in any way to ask the suspected Mr. Doe if he killed Mr. Boddy, but it is evasion, if I may finish the analogy you inexplicably left unfinished, for Mr. Doe to ignore the question and say that he abhors killing and has in fact started up a program to rehabilitate killers. This is true no matter how many other politicians evade questions, how much they evade them, or how routinely they do it. Anarchangel ( talk) 20:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
White Queenism? What? Being helpful to Alice albeit in a cryptic way? (guilty) Claiming to have done 'six impossible things before breakfast'? (not usually) Living backwards in time, like Merlin? (newp) Of great speed, outdistancing the White King? (um,) Or eventually turning into a sheep? What do you mean? Anarchangel ( talk) 22:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
The CNN vid report that includes the Croft interview begins with a statement that they talked to people in Wasilla who said that Wasilla PD charged. Fannon, for crissakes, said he charged. Enough of this, only hospitals charged, nonsense, please.
You mention there was the testimony of only one woman from Juneau. It wasn't because there was only one woman charged; Hugonin herself mentioned that the same thing had occurred in the Kenai peninsula, Anchorage, Mat-Su Valley and Juneau, for example. I believe it was because the committee did not see fit to give this more time. You may agree when you look at all four meetings; Hugonin ended up giving pretty much the same testimony at least three times, and the other woman twice, so anything they can do to save time, I guess. Also see the original text of AS 11.71.900. One 'test case' in which a man was carrying a concealed weapon in his own bar is used as an illustration of something that happens repeatedly, to show the reasons for the bill.
He is implying that she knew. He can't say that she knew, but he can say that it is unlikely in his opinion. Wasn't it Collect who first suggested that this was in some way not an accusation? You have more sense than that, I think. Anarchangel ( talk) 22:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. While I agree with your case overall, I doubt that a case for slander can be brought up for so small an offense. Anarchangel ( talk) 22:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Overall, you seem eager to discount Croft entirely based on absolutely nothing except your opinion or feelings that he's lying. No, really not at all. It's more the lack of historical evidence to support his statements, and a very small leap of logic to understand them. First, one would expect there to be some evidence of a six-month long battle--a newspaper article, some legislative minutes or whatever--yet we have only the Frontiersman as a contemporaneous mention of Fannon's opposition. (Ironically, had it not been for that Frontiersman article discovered during the Obama campaign, Croft would never even have been called to be interviewed about the matter.) Next, during the course of this "fight", why would the state legislator and sponsor of the bill never have contacted the mayor of this Alaska town to resolve it? Certainly Croft would have escalated to the mayor and behind if he were getting stonewalled by Fannon, no? Finally, in view of the inexplicable event of never asking the mayor directly, why would Croft eight years later state "I can't imagine how she didn't know"? Again, there are so many holes in the historical record on this issue (and we're talking 2000 and not 1900) that make me very circumspect that perspective wasn't a bit distorted eight years later in the heat of a campaign. Fcreid ( talk) 18:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
When I look at the diff of my edit, I see, on the right hand side at the top, Line 822. Then section: Palin quote in grey. Then Line 985. Ending at Parodies of Sarah Palin in grey at the bottom. Does yours look different?
Should have been fairly obvious, but Kilkenny is covering up for herself. She isn't covering up for Palin, SPT is covering up for Palin by not noting they were colleagues, not only in the sense I described earlier, but that their ad hominem assessment of her testimony as coming from a 'critic' would be weakened by SPT admitting that they worked together.
I don't introduce the Huffington Post as reliable. It has always been considered reliable. To my knowledge, only Ferrylodge has ever suggested otherwise. Et tu?
"the reason you're not likely to find anything contemporaneous is because this issue is and always has been Campaign 2008 nonsense."
Nonsense, no. I concede that much of the information comes from 2008. There is a whole discussion we could get into there, about the merits of information from a later date. It most certainly does not exclude any of the information, but obviously newer information should be used if it is found. The Fannon interview, for example, comes from 2000, and the Palin interview directly deals with events of 96-00 by interviewing someone who was there, at that time, in that office. The spokeswoman's testimony, which I attempted to replace, is none of those things. So in fact, if being as close to the center of an incident is truly an issue for you, then you have at least one reason to support the Palin quote.
Frontiersman:
The forensic exam is just one part of the equation. Id like to see the courts make these people pay restitution for these things, Fannon said."
From the same article, Tony Knowles: "We would never bill the victim of a burglary for fingerprinting and photographing the crime scene, or for the cost of gathering other evidence. Nor should we bill rape victims just because the crime scene happens to be their bodies."
[1]
Published on Monday, May 22, 2000 9:00 PM AKDT
"The town sherriff had no business billing his expense (for the rape investigation kit) to anyone's private medical insurance. It has nothing to do with rape or crime or sensitivity. It's a matter of appropriate responsibility of government agencies."
Agree Fannon had no business charging. Disagree, it has everything to do with rape and crime and sensitivity. Also, none of the above arguments on either side, after the discussion of the SPT & HuffPo, have anything to do with improving the article. Well, they do in that if people believed them as you appear to, they would wonder what all the fuss was about, I suppose. But I have disproved them all with exactly the same cites as this time, many times. How come you haven't gotten it yet? Please would you confine yourself to discussion of the material?Not that it concerns the article, but have you not considered that the billing of PDs will continue even should this 'instituting medical insurance as communal property' take place?"that didn't stick because there is no evidence she had anything to do with it"
Ignore 'campaign smear'. It stuck. I concede that that had more to do with agendas than evidence. You wish to keep out of the article the only evidence available that shows that she either knew of the policy or was not acting competently with regard to the policy, though. That is what this section is about. You wrote hundreds of words and not one of them is about that.
Anarchangel (
talk)
06:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
When I have made 4 edits that are separated by intervening type, amidst a sea of other type, and I get an edit conflict of one passage, it is more difficult to add my 4 comments separately than it is to add the one to my version. So I copy my version of the page, and paste it, after having copied and pasted the single comment to add at the end. Is there no way that you can view the page normally? Edit conflict is a common occurrence; it happened twice again today.
Agenda is none of editors' concern, as has been pointed out previously, although not as many times as agenda has been used as a argument; oftentimes I have merely ignored it. I will continue to point this out whenever I feel good about it; I am most certainly not obligated to address this or any of your other would-be arguments that fail to follow WP procedure. I have already conceded that there most of the stories are from 2008. The SPT article picks at the carcasses of 2008 articles for whatever bits it finds to its taste, and yet you claim to prefer timeliness. You 'concede' that Palin wasn't aware? You're a little unclear on the concept of concede there, F. The track of subverting the process that you're on goes straight thru RFC on an express train to Arb. But by all means, carry on creating more documentation.
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Only one thing in here to address. See above for everything else. Or possibly below, as these are new additions to a tertiary threadlet. ...And the one thing is: Pretty much, we have access to the same evidence. I contend that your assertions' interpretation of it, such as maintaining that 'no evidence' is notable, is faulty. So if you find there is a lack of evidence in a particular area, be assured that I am aware of this, but don't take that to mean that we interpret those facts or the lack of them to mean the same thing. So, a qualified concession. Can't really see what I would get out of Arb at this point. My point was that, after I had made an effort to introduce the procedure of making concessions, your very first 'concession' ever was a subversion of that process. I should add, I am disappointed, to what I said before. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:21, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I would say the discussion has gone full circle, but it is more like, turned around and gone back over old unrelated ground. The Palin quote and the two questions address the issue of whether or not and to what extent Palin was involved. They show that we can't know, because Palin won't tell. The preamble isn't necessary, forget it. Its usefulness as a precis is weakened by its length. Two questions, 29 words I think it was, and the Palin quote instead of the first part of the Palin spokeswoman's quote. We should keep the second part of the spokeswoman's quote, as was done in the Mayoralty article. Notability is from notoriety.
I will not accept the old order of: suggestion, unsupported assertions against, and then endless wide-ranging debate with the only opposer here who gives a damn enough to actually answer assertions. If you don't contribute, you don't count. The opinions are two to one in favor, and even if he bothers to show up, F still isn't covering all the assertions. Material inserted.
Inevitably, it will be reverted, with something in the page summary about no consensus, by someone who didn't even bother coming to the discussion to see if there is a consensus, because they only come to the discussion to type a single contentious unsupported assertion one sentence long every week or so. Anarchangel ( talk) 23:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
There is no consensus here, and I have not seen one from Oct 7th to this day. I don't think anyone here knows what one is, or how to go about achieving it, despite my attempts to quote WP:EQ as an illustration. Consensus is not achieved by a tally. That's a vote. Consensus is the result of discussion that considers each person's assertions, and by a process of eliminating assertions that do not stand, arrives at a definitive conclusion. In lieu of challenges to my assertions, and having challenged all others, my assertions stand. That's not consensus either, but it is a damn sight nearer to it than, 'we all say no, so no'. In short, if you don't show up to the discussion, you are not part of the consensus. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Note that discussion has recommenced around a topic of your choosing, which is argument about "silly assertions" and "insulting". This is not a step forward. I urge everyone to talk about the material, the meaning and procedure of consensus, anything that might actually lead to improving the article. Anarchangel ( talk) 23:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Just to make sure I understand, the current consensus is that we remove all "material" related to "rape kits" and Wasilla from this current bio and possibly include that material in a bio about Fannon or a Palin subarticle as it currently is, correct? Thanks for everybodies help!! -- Tom 18:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I have made many arguments for why the info shouldn't be included, as have many others. Unfortunately, you would have to be a longer term contributor to know this as they are in the archives. Just because all editors don't run out and respond to walls of text every 5th day when someone tries to undo the fragile peace we spend countless hours crafting doesn't mean our opinions don't matter. LedRush ( talk) 00:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
"The info"? That sounds awfully inclusive. We were discussing the insertion of the Palin interview. Your objections are in the archives? Now that makes it objection to entirely different material, or objection to the article as a whole. For someone who deleted material with a claims to be representing 'consensus', that is at least two very substantive anamolies. Stop me if I go off track: you're opposed to inclusion of the rape kit material in general, and just thought any bit you could take out would be lending a helping hand? Anarchangel ( talk)
"I will readily change my position on inclusion if that fact is suppressed" : Holding inclusion of the three sentences for a ransom that isn't supported by any facts, and never will be, as by definition, 'no evidence' can never be supported by facts. Wiki editors bear the burden of proof. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
So let's delete the whole thing and you guys can try and demonstrate why the rape kit "controversy" even belongs at all in a BLP when such living person has no provable connection to it. If you convince people here and your insertion of language gains acceptance, we'll include it. Wait, we already did that? And now people are greatly expanding the section? Oh yeah... LedRush ( talk) 22:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I believe the following was the consensus insertion (though I admit it is a little awkward):
Palin appointed [1] Charles Fannon to replace Stambaugh as police chief. Fannon later opposed a state law preventing police departments from billing rape victims or their health insurance for evidence collection kits. [2] Fannon said that the Wasilla police had sometimes billed victims' health insurance in the past; Stambaugh said that under his tenure the city had paid. [3] An investigation by the St. Petersburg Times found no evidence that Palin had explicitly supported or opposed the policy. [4]
End Quote. LedRush ( talk) 22:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Led. Tom already tried that. Your yearning for the good old days of extremely bad behaviour, that attempted to bypass and even subvert WP procedures, and was resoundingly unpopular to boot, is noted.
The Stambaugh info was inserted in place of a large amount of text by Coemgenus: "(Summary:(this is way too much weight on one topic, and way too long for a summary-style article -- let's get consensus before re-adding (or not)) Revision as of 22:51, 3 November 2008)" I looked for your comments in the archives from that period on, and this is the first time you've mentioned it. So I concede that you have not expressly supported it, but on the other hand, you have never objected to it until now. If you're looking for something to do, there are quite a few other pages out there.
Coemgenus' edit
The Stambaugh material was good enough to keep me from objecting to the SPT dreck for many weeks. Coemgenus is no Palin basher; he trimmed the material, pro and con, down to two sentences, and he was right; he cut right to the heart of things, past all the back and forth of 'Fannon: I am fiscally responsible', 'USA Today: victims pay a deductible', 'SPT: no evidence (gotta laugh at the repeat MO) anyone paid such a deductible', and SPT again 'no evidence', which he kept, while trashing the Palin quote. Yep, he was the one who replaced
"When asked by the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman what the policy had been and whether any victims had been required to pay, Palin stated: "I do not believe, nor have I ever believed, that rape victims should have to pay for an evidence-gathering test."<ref name=PalinResponds">{{cite news |title=FRONTIERSMAN EXCLUSIVE: Palin responds to questions |publisher=Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman |date=September 30, 2008 |url=http://frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/30/breaking_news/doc48e1e1294d418713321438.txt |accessdate=[[2008-10-07]] }}</ref>.
with the SPT 'no evidence'
negative proof fallacy. This of course is where I begin to disagree with his edit, and even more so, the outrageous gallons of dismissive whitewash in the wording "There is no proof Palin had anything to do with this matter". Factchecker changed it, and someone else changed it again, to its most recent form, which is considerably less obfuscating.
If I had been paying closer attention, I would have called for the Palin quote to replace the SPT story immediately. But o well, someone else, again, basically had already done it for me. So you see, the history of your SPT material includes the fact that editors from both sides of the issue didn't and presumably still don't much care for it, preferring something a little closer to Palin's own words. It is a point particularly worth considering that all this time, you have been arguing that a quote directly from Palin and the question that prompted it are less valuable than a quote from her spokeswoman. Or do I have your concession on that point, which is why you have switched to the Stambaugh material?
Coemgenus seems to have thought the Stambaugh phrase more noteworthy than five other pieces of info on the topic. I think it shows an irreplacable part of the continuum: Stambaugh paid for kits, and was fired. Palin replaced him with Fannon, who charged for them. You say you think "I don't see how that's relevant to Palin's biography given our closing statement"; the closing statement I presume is the disputed SPT phrase. Even if that were included, they are about two different things. If you are giving the closing statement as evidence, how does it pertain to the Stambaugh statement? What is it evidence of? And then you repeat that it has no relevance, again without providing reasons.
The Stambaugh phrase needs to stay, and the Palin quote needs to stay.
Anarchangel (
talk)
04:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Anarchangel said: Your [LedRush] yearning for the good old days of extremely bad behaviour, that attempted to bypass and even subvert WP procedures, and was resoundingly unpopular to boot, is noted.
This statemtn is inaccurate, insulting, and offensive. Please apologize as their is no evidence that I tried to bypass or subvert WP procedures or engaged in bad behavior on this issue. LedRush ( talk) 16:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Let's assume that we take your interpretation of her answers. (I don't, but let's play pretend for a moment). Why would we include a non-answer in a BLP? Why would we include a statement about someone not directly answering a question to some small matter in a small town? How would this be relevent to a biography of a person of her stature unless we are assuming that she knew about it and is covering it up? Because that is an assumption we cannot make in a BLP, the info is not notable and cannot be included. LedRush ( talk) 03:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
Concerning "Generally you don't include the previous question to a quote, just the quote." et al: Articles are not required to be written like other articles, they are required to be written following WP rules. Therefore, the common form of inserting quotes is not relevant, only rules governing inserting quotes. There are no prohibitions of questions preceding answers in MOS:QUOTE; the subject is not mentioned. Anarchangel ( talk) 02:57, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Obviously not. Restoring Palin quote and question that prompted it. Present assertions against this previous wording with logical reasons, preferably cited. The cat's back, playtime's over. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
No solid reasons for your reversion. Sorry to point this out. Collect ( talk) 12:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Anarchangel, you're being kind of obtuse on this, and I will revert once more after I post this until you convince us it should be in there. The majority of editors feel that the mention of this should be within the agreed upon scope defined in our earlier consensus on the topic (before you ever arrived to edit here, I believe). The only reason you want a lengthy diatribe of this question and answer is because you hope to lead a reader to conclude that Palin was aware of or even involved in Fannon's practice because she didn't answer the questions to your satisfaction. That is tantamount to WP:OR and is disingenuous editing. Unless you can provide actual evidence she was involved in the matter, anything beyond the concise wording above constitutes WP:UNDUE weight on the matter. As far as the question/answer itself, you're equally wrong on your interpretation. Again, you assume the answer reflects some attempt on her part to hide involvement. In fact, her response to this series of "when did you stop beating your wife" style questions is absolutely appropriate. Would you have her respond with, "Yeah, that was Charlie Fannon's doing" or "Yeah, I was an oblivious mayor for not knowing about this"? Her answer was the only feasible one, i.e. any suggestion that she advocated charging rape victims is preposterous, and her record reflects that. Fcreid ( talk) 21:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The majority of students receive C's in school. Please show where they actually got the answers right and it is all a conspiracy. I showed that the SPT material was deficient, the Palin quote was straight from the source, and the questions were the most revealing detail of the entire affair. You have never shown that the material shouldn't be included. Quite obviously this could go on forever, and quite obviously, it should have ended with my insertion of the material. Might does not make right. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Collect wrote "No solid reasons for your reversion..."
Fcreid wrote, "... and I will revert once more..."
I didn't revert. I mistook your continued opposition as a sign that you had, and didn't check the History first. You are characterizing this as me making multiple reverts, yet in fact there has been only one: your revert of my version.
Fcreid: "The only reason you want a lengthy diatribe of this question and answer is because you hope to lead a reader to conclude that Palin was aware of or even involved in Fannon's practice because she didn't answer the questions to your satisfaction. That is tantamount to
WP:OR and is disingenuous editing."
My reasons for inclusion are quite separate from the included material, and I can make as many observations or assumptions about the material as I feel furthers the course of discussion on it; that is not OR, it is contributing to the discussion. I took great care to preface the material in a non-PoV way, and would never include my views on the reason she did not answer, in the article, as you can see above, in my reply to Buster 7, more than a day before your edit.
"her response to this series of "when did you stop beating your wife" style questions is absolutely appropriate...Would you have her respond with, "Yeah, that was Charlie Fannon's doing" or "Yeah, I was an oblivious mayor for not knowing about this"?"
You misrepresent the questions as misrepresenting the issue. You've limited my choice of responses for her, particularly with the "oblivious mayor" answer, but basically, yes. Why would she not answer?
Kelly wrote, with a depth and relevance I find is best described as 'fatuous': "Agree with Fcreid (and Collect) above"
Kelly, for what reasons and in what way do you agree? Do you have anything to add to the discussion?
Anarchangel (
talk)
00:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Again, the old cycle of Revert, add assertions bereft of supporting facts, ignore response and go on vacation. Anarchangel ( talk) 21:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC) What part of this is unclear? No one made any answer to my question. They revert, they come here and blither, I answer anyway, but they have already left. What do they imagine is going to happen? I'm going to wait around for them to change their mind? Accept that a bad argument plus more deletors equals having it your way? Lots have. Lots of good editors have been worn down by this. I won't be, ever. Get over thinking that. There is no consensus for not including it, as there are no assertions for not including it that haven't been at least challenged without the challenge being answered, if not refuted. Anarchangel ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I give up. We clearly have an editor here who has no intention of ever editing in good faith or cooperating in the discussion process. Some admin needs to deal with this. Fcreid ( talk) 01:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps HuffPo does bad stories, but I haven't seen one yet. The one I quoted sure isn't. The HuffPo article is indispensable because it prints facts that no one else included, well documented, with links from the article to material to cite it. Where do you get that? Only Wikipedia and HP. The SPT printed its favorite selection of facts that everyone else had already printed. Anarchangel ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Own comment removed Anarchangel ( talk) 08:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Own comment removed Anarchangel ( talk) 08:14, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I suspect the reality is that admins can be as biased as you are, but it's nice to think you might get a reality check. Either way, win or lose, my argument stands on the letter of record. It's all there in the archives, to say nothing of this section. Nothing in my edit is entirely new; it has all been in the article and then out again at some point. For example, the Huffington Post article: I was pretty green when Ferrylodge pretended that HP wasn't a reliable source, so there I go off looking in vain for info on that, instead of telling him what he could do with his misinformation and stopping the insert fluff/revert substance madness. This is just, all the chickens coming home to roost. By the way, I should thank you for stopping me from making a serious error on the Stambaugh guns thing; we were all reading the amendment wrongly. So that's why that's not in. And there is still the hospital story. I was hoping for more on that, but I still have more than you've seen; I have the original Alaska Supreme Court case, and it shows how Palin's pals padded the hospital board, paying $5 to get onto the hospital board, then electing their choice to be on the next board, which then elected, surprise surprise, Palin to be on the top board, which is how she stopped abortions there. They bought policy, and the Supreme Court slapped it down, again no surprise. It's all here Palin being on the board is in the USA Today printing of the AP 'As governor, Palin at times bonds church and state' article : "In that same period, she also joined a grass-roots, faith-based movement to stop the local hospital from performing abortions, a fight that ultimately lost before the Alaska Supreme Court...Records show she was elected to the nonprofit's board in 2000."
"VHA is a membership organization. Any adult may become a VHA member upon paying a five dollar application fee. Members who are residents of the Mat-Su Borough, denominated "general members," annually elect the Association Board. Abortion has been permitted in Alaska since 1970, when the state legislature passed the current abortion law. [Fn. 1] VHA permitted lawful abortion procedures at its facility from 1970 until 1992. [Fn. 2] In 1992 abortion opponents organized a campaign to enlarge the membership of VHA. In April 1992 a larger- than-usual membership elected the Association Board, which then elected the Operating Board. In September 1992 the Operating Board enacted a new policy on abortion. The policy prohibits abortions at the hospital unless (1) there is documentation by one or more physicians that the fetus has a condition that is incompatible with life; (2) the mother's life is threatened; or (3) the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest. All VHA Operating Board members supported this new policy. The Mat-Su Coalition for Choice, Dr. Susan Lemagie, and ten unnamed women (Coalition) filed suit against VHA and its executive director, seeking declaratory and injunctive relief." Etc. Merry Christmas. Anarchangel ( talk) 03:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Shelving the material immediately above for a bit until at least a couple of the Proposed Changes below are dealt with. If anyone has any comments, feel free, but since there hasn't been a reply for two days, I won't be holding my breath or checking this section every hour. Might be a good idea not to archive this section; the material above the Church and State material is directly related to a few of the Proposed changes. Anarchangel ( talk) 09:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
Consensus has been a bone of contention througout this article since late August 2008.(Was there a Consensus to Fully protect just after Palin was announced?) I tried to find a thoughtful and educational contribution by SlRubenstein...so far unsuccessful. But this caught my eye...[ [6]]..not the one I'm searching for, but good advice.-- Buster7 ( talk) 07:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
okay the elections are over young trigg(shara palin and/or her husband) have retired from wikipedia can we edit this page now or ca —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.117.236 ( talk) 12:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
okay the elections are over young trigg(shara palin and/or her husband) have retired from wikipedia can we edit this page now or ca —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.117.236 (talk) 12:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Probably inappropriate (and inaccurate) to make insinuation towards the topic of this WP:BLP, but on your question I thought anyone with an account had editing rights in the semi-protect status. I don't see this article going to fully unprotected in the near-term. Too much vandalism. Fcreid (talk) 14:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Aw, c'mon, let's allow unrestricted editing by IPs. What's the worst that could happen!? Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 18:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC) Noticed a bit of edits from IP on the main article the past couple days, but it still indicates a semi-protected status... I thought that precluded IP editing. :-\ Fcreid (talk) 17:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Something has happened to the page protection - just log out and you will see that it is no longer semi-protected even though the lock icon is still in the article. Can someone please reprotect this article? It is already getting out of hand. WTucker (talk) 19:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC) I've renewed semi-protection for a month, based on the rate of IP vandalism.--agr (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
As a general point of information, aside from protecting the article, are these scurrilous editors immediately banned from Wikipedia? Is there a "3 strikes-'yer out" policy? Just curious. (After posting this I see that Bryan Asian etc. has been banned indefinetly)--Buster7 (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC) Wikipedia's approach to vandalism is to first encourage vandals to become legit contributors, so the process is gradual with warnings that escalate. See Wikipedia:Vandalism.--agr (talk) 04:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC) There is no inherent right of a vandal to vandalize three or four times before getting blocked after a long series of graduated warnings. Sometimes an "only warning" is posted after the first vandalism, if it is egregious defamation of a living person, or otherwise clearly damaging to Wikipedia. Many vandals are blocked after fewer than 3 or 4 graduated warnings. Some vandals are quite experienced and know all the angles. Edison (talk) 17:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youngtrigg(not sharapalin) ( talk • contribs)
Currently the article reads: "City of Wasilla Library records indicate that there was never a request for the library to remove the book and that no books were ever censored or banned."
However, this is misleading. The records don't "show that there was never a request," they simply "fail to show that a request was made."
There is a difference between records showing that something didn't happen and records failing to show that something did happen. The rhetoric of the former is very misleading and in fact is inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trooper9951 ( talk • contribs) 13:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
The official records are stated to be complete. They list all requests. They even list the names of the books involved. The book in question (Daddy's Roommate) is not on any such list. Ergo, there is a positive statement that this book was not requested to be removed or banned. This was, in fact, discussed at length in the past. As is the fact that no books were removed or banned at all. The statement in the article is therefore precisely accurate. Thanks! Collect ( talk) 13:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
"religious beliefs" is in double quotes in the WP article. In the cited article, from Time, it is a paraphrase. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books" is in quotes in the cited article, but obscured by qualifications and out of quotes on WP. The statement, "Palin stated in 2006 that she would not allow her personal religious beliefs to dictate her political positions" is either a complete fabrication, good faith but OR, or good faith but poorly cited, or some combination thereof. The cite from CNN says only "Her campaign says she doesn't mix her faith with government business". Anarchangel ( talk) 18:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)