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It appears that Bernhardt was a mistress of Edward VII of the United Kingdom for a while. Neither article mentions this, so if someone would like to do the research it would be worth adding. -- Solipsist 09:10, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you're going to put someone in the 'gay, lesbian and bisexual people' category, I need some evidence from the article. I have no evidence whatsoever that Sarah Bernhardt isn't a heterosexual. Can someone please put that information in the article? Scott Gall 08:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've honestly never read much that suggests that Bernhardt was much of a courtesan, except possibly at the very beginning of her acting career, when she had an affair with Henri de Ligne (have seen it spelled several different ways), the father of her son Maurice. Most of her money throughout her life was made through her work. I've never seen any real confirmation of any supposed affair with Edward, except that she was friendly with at least one of his known mistresses. I don't think she was bursting with the conventional sexual virtue of the period, but overstating her role as courtesan overshadows her excellent business acumen and the fact that she herself tended to support her lovers.
Her career actually began at the French national theater, but legend has it that she was dismissed because she behaved disrespectfully to an established older actress. The story is that Sarah's younger sister Regine was hanging around with her backstage, and during a procession, stood on the train of the gown of an established actress, Madame Nathalie. Nathalie either shoved or slapped Regine, and Sarah slapped Nathalie. Another version of this story has Sarah doing the accidental-standing-on-the-train and being shoved, and Nathalie being slapped. I'm not sure which is more likely, but Regine was very delicate (eventually died quite young), and Sarah was known to have been very motherly towards her, so if someone had behaved violently towards Regine, it seems more likely that Sarah would have risked her career over that than over a personal insult.
In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:11, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone claimed that Tosca, La Traviata, Fedora and La Gioconda, "to name a few" were all operas based on plays written for Bernhardt. I noticed that this certainly is not the case for La Traviata, which was written by Verdi in 1848. Since Bernhardt was only born in 1844, it seemed rather unlikely that she would be playing Violetta, the consumptive courtesan, before the age of 4. Someone should check up on the others too, just to make sure. A possible candidate for replacement here is Salome, which I believe Bernhardt performed before Strauss wrote his opera, though I cannot say if Wilde wrote the play specifically "for" her. Someone should check this up too. Also, I changed the operas to links, while before they were only in caps for some reason. eeesh 15:02, 8 May 2006
I didn't know about Sarah Bernhardt till I heard the song "Practice makes Perfect" by 70s british post-punk band Wire, this is how the lyrics go:
"Practice makes perfect, yes I can prove it Business or pleasure, the more that you do it
Please dress in your best things, this course was unplanned 'Cos you see up in my bedroom I've got Sarah Bernhardt's hand
Practice makes perfect, I've done this before Never for money, always for love
Please dress in your best things, and don't make a fuss 'Cos you see up in my bedroom Sarah's waiting for us"
I don't know if this is so important as to add it on the page but there it is for your judgement.
Sarah Bernhardt (or perhaps her character Princess Fédora) is credited with introducing a soft felt hat that became known the fedora.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=h&Category_Code=mens-fedora-hats&sort=&offset=96</ref> — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.70.8.132 (
talk)
16:03, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Most sources seem to give October 22, not October 23. By the way, "Not to be confused with comedienne Sandra Bernhard" as it says at the top of the page. That's ridiculous -- like saying George V shouldn't be confused with George Burns. It shouldn't be assumed that our readers are complete idiots. Alpheus 08:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I am the biographer of Sarony and am compiling a list of known poses of Bernhardt for Sarony. I can b contacted at broadwayhistory@msn.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.205.169.170 ( talk) 14:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
Removed the sentence that stated she was arguably the most famous actress of the 19th century. Wikipedia Manual of Style defines "arguably" as a Weasel word and states "Weasel words don't really give a neutral point of view; they just spread hearsay, or couch personal opinion in vague or indirect syntax. The consensus of editors responsible for Wikipedia encourages you to name a source rather than assign an opinion to an anonymous source".
More on this can be found at Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words.
The word would be acceptable if a source can be credited to back the statement up. Philbertgray 15:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I think the statement is common knowledge; I would want a citation for the statement that anyone else was *more* famous than Bernhardt. I would simply delete "arguably." -- Andersonblog 20:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 08:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to discuss that image of Hamlet. Although the original image was published before 1923 and is now in the public domain, the image as it now stands is claimed to be a new version. Does that mean that copyright on the image, as it has been substantially altered and amended, is renewed? DrKiernan 10:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
rvondeh@dircon.co.uk adds: as the person who scanned the negative and then spent many hours cleaning it, removing cracks, fixing the lighting, adjusting the contrast, reconstructing parts which were missing - I would state most definitely that the Lafayette Bernhardt image is most certainly not just a simple copy. Anyone with a level of training will note that the photograph as displayed on the Wikipedia page is not a scan from a newspaper - it is far too crisp and has none of the duo-tone problems associated (i.e. small dots or lines). I generally feel that when authors add photographs to Wikipedia by copying them from obviously academic (or otherwise) web sites, the use of a small note requesting permission to use an image would be, at the last, polite. I don't believe that Wikipedia advises its authors to remain within the realms of academic politeness but it would be a step in the right direction.
Was she not also involved with Alexandre Dumas? I believe I have seen somewhere a photo of the two together. LaCritique ( talk) 21:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This page says she was born Marie Henriette Bernardt and that she added an h to her first name which makes no sense. The French page says she was born Henriette Rosine Bernard, the German page says Marie Henriette Rosine Bernard , the Italian, Dutch and Spanish pages say Rosine Bernardt, the Esperanto page (yeah I decided to get to the bottom of this!) says Henriette-Rosine Bernard, the Swedish page says Henriette-Rosine van Hard. I am lost for explanations... Mezigue ( talk) 22:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
If you think that's a conundrum, try this one on for size. The above revelation prompted me to do a similar exercise for her date of birth. I found that Wikipedia is speaking with at least 6 tongues. Her birth date depends on which article you look at:
That's just the ones where I could understand the language, or it was readily apparent what date they were quoting. Only problem is, none of them have the date I came here looking to confirm - 25 September. So, what do we make of all that? Like you, I'm no closer to being convinced about when she was actually born. -- JackofOz ( talk) 14:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I've been away from this article for quite a while, but I see the date "22 October 1844" now appears in the lede without qualification, as if it were incontrovertible fact, and in the infobox with the footnote. I have very strong reservations about this. We simply cannot claim this specific date with any degree of certainty, because any record that might corroborate it has been destroyed. We can't even be absolutely certain about the year 1844, but almost all sources agree on at least this much. Before I make any changes, I'd appreciate some input about what we should do about her birthdate. I'm still very strongly wedded to the idea of showing simply "1844". We should have a section in the article proper discussing the issue, and explaining why we can't be any more specific than "1844", and we could also mention some of the dates that are most commonly found in sources. And then readers can come to their own conclusions. We should not make that conclusion for them, because we simply do not know. -- JackofOz ( talk) 12:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
A book put out by the Bibliotheque nationale de France includes a painting by Bernhardt's friend, Louise Abbema. Apparently, the letter accompanying the painting states that it commemorated the women's relationship. This does not, however, support the idea that Bernhardt was "openly bisexual", since there are no contemporary accounts of her being open about the nature of her relationship with Abbema. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.165.143.249 ( talk) 03:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
The website which was used as a source to support that this 19th century actress “was openly bisexual”, only makes a one-liner assertion. It does not cite any credible contemporary accounts or documents. It's unfair to make deliberate assertions or misinterpreting biographical information on notable people who are deceased. I didn’t see anything about her bisexual tendencies or being “openly bisexual” in her autobiography, Britannica or other biographies.
P.S. Her sexual orientation isn’t an issue, if she was homosexual it wouldn't add or subtract from her legacy, but in the interests of historical scholarship it's important to view facts in their proper context. -- Grinevitski ( talk) 06:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't know the subject at all, but I was surprised to see Sarah Bernhardt in a list of famous 19th-century examples on the Courtesan page. Would this by any estimation be correct? Yours almost- instinct 14:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The most recent modern biographies indicate that when Bernhardt was young, she supplemented her income by taking lovers. (It was commonplace for young actresses, ballet dancers and singers to have "a protector" -- they weren't paid much. Bernhardt found the fact that she was received in upper class English homes surprising, since actresses had the social reputation of, say, strippers, for many in the 19th century.) Skinner (1967) writes that "Her lovers may have given her jewelry and other expensive gifts, even occasional funds, but she never took on on for mercenary purposes." (pg 42) Skinner, however, discounts a contemporary account by a fellow actress, attributing it to jealousy. The more recent biographies, including the 1991 Gold and Fitzdale biography indicate that this contemporary account, though biased, is probably accurate about this, especially since Bernhardt's mother and aunt were both courtesans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.116.123 ( talk) 04:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
In 2007, there was an exhibit on Sarah Bernhardt in the Joods Historisch Museum in Amsterdam. For this exhibit, Harmen Snel, an (/the chief?) archivist of the city of Amsterdam, did research on Sarah's origins, which apparently never had been done properly before(!). He wrote a booklet about it: " The ancestry of Sarah Bernhardt; a myth unraveled." (Jewish Museum of Amsterdam, 2007, ISBN 9789080202931) I'll try to translate what was written in a newspaper article on this here:
...Also he exposes the fraud that the actress, who had grown into an icon of French nationalism, had committed in 1914 to become eligible to receive the Légion d'honneur. She could only obtain that order [which she did] if she could prove to be French. For this reason she falsified her birth record and certificate. Since her father was unknown and she had held the surname Bernhardt her entire life, she made up a father with the name Edouard Bernhardt who supposedly had been a law student from Le Havre. For her unmarried mother, who in reality was named Julie Bernhardt (daughter of Moritz Bernhardt) she made up the new name "Judith van Hard". Snel says that up till now newspapers and biographers have taken Sarah Bernhardt's falsified documents for the real thing and have copied each other blindly. Even the American catalogue made for/before the exhbition [in 2007 in Amsterdam] made that mistake, though the exhibit displayed Snel's discovered facts correctly.
Besides exposing Sarah Bernhardts fraud, Snel also found out facts about her grandfather that explain why she had carefully never mentioned him in her life: grandfather Moritz Bernhardt was not only a spectacle merchant and "optician" of dubious character - he performed for example eye surgeries at street fairs - but also a (not so) petty criminal, perhaps the most notorious one in Amsterdam. Snel: "He committed church robbery, about the worst thing you could do as a Jew, was a pickpocket, committed armed robberies, and was the main suspect of a jewel theft from the royal palace in Brussels. However, he was so clever and glib that he never was convicted for anything"....
This from the Trouw newspaper; there was a similar article on Monday 3, 2008 in Het Parool (search in [6]). I only found one English biography on the web aware of his book.
At any rate, the current text in the wikipedia article seems copied from those sources that "copied each other blindly". If there is anyone with access to the book (anyone visiting the Jewish History Museum, for example), it would be great if he/she can rewrite the early biography (and perhaps mention the fraud). If nothing happens, I'll change it based on the above (and perhaps a bit more digging), but a primary source reference would be much better (the news paper articles may have mistakes in them).
BTW From this website I understand that Snel wrote or implied "Though Sarah celebrated her birthday on October 23rd (this based on a letter she wrote to her lover) October 28th was probably her correct birth date." Afasmit ( talk) 06:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
She had a daughter with her husband, Teresa,I think that this should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.242.225 ( talk) 20:50, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/62517/Sarah-Bernhardt/8218/Early-life-and-training#ref181930 (content added here and in subsequent edits by the same contributor). Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Can the fact that the Sarah Bernhardt Peony is named after Sarah Bernhardt please be added to this article somewhere? I have to admint, I'm somewhat stunned it isn't already in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CYL ( talk • contribs) 15:29, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
The IPA pronunciation of Bernhardt's name is not correct compared to the way Sarah pronounced her own name! On many of her recordings, namely the titles recorded for Pathé, Gramophone, and Zon-o-phone in 1902 and 1903, she introduces herself by giving the title of the piece she is going to recite, followed by the phrase "dit par Madame Sarah Bernhardt". I have closely listened to all of her surviving recordings many times, and despite the tendency of the primitive recording equipment used to blur (or completely lose) hard consonants, it's totally clear she always pronounces her family name with a short "a" and an audible final "t", with stress on the second syllable - it would be rhyming with German "vernarrt" (while the present IPA wrongly describes a long "a" and silent "t", like the French male given name "Bernard"). The clearest transcription of one of her records I could find online is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWGjd39dPg8 , there's some other examples on YouTube which all sound identical as regards the pronunciation of the name. Sorry I don't know how to type IPA symbols, but I hope there's people more versed in Wiki editing than myself who can fix the wrong pronunciation. I have not checked yet, but very likely the problem affects other language Wikis as well. ChrisZ78 ( talk) 17:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Surprised and sad to see no mention that she was an accomplished sculptor. (I just saw one of her pieces, and it was truly impressive -- even more so for someone who had so little time to spend sculpting due to her theater work. Will add info, but it would be nice if there was a creative commons photo of one of her sculptures we could inbed. -- Gwengazorn ( talk) 06:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
For details, see < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/opinion/22iht-edjohnson.3.19600014.html?%5C_r=0&_r=0> (last retrieved 7/3/13) Arreshl ( talk) 00:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I am working currently to improve the article. . I have added several new sources and added in-line citations to each paragraph, and have restructured and added to several sections, giving citations for each addition. I am also editing and added citations the list of plays in which she performed.
I also am addressing the number of images. I agree that there are too many in the two final galleries; I propose to select a few images from those galleries for inclusion in the article, and then to eliminate those two galleries. The article still needs a few images of her in her later years and final performances, and an image of her in her coffin, which I am trying to find.
Given the length of her career and the number of plays she performed and the things she did, I don't think the current overall length is too excessive. Some of the lists near the end, such as the list of magazine articles, might possibly be shortened or consolidated, and with the galleries gone, it should be within the norm.. .
Suggestions for further additions and changes are welcome. Cordially, SiefkinDR ( talk) 12:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
See if you can get Snel's book; it's an interesting read. Afasmit ( talk) 10:48, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
References
In Ma Double Vie, we have Sarah Bernhardt's story of her confrontation and conflict with "Madame Nathalie." Bernhardt describes this person as "the very fat and solemn Madame Nathalie. She was a Sociètaire of the Comédie, old, spiteful and surly." (anonymous translation published by William Heinemann, 1907, p. 101.)
In Comédie-française (1658-1900): Liste alphabétique des sociétaires depuis Molière jusqu'à nos jours by Georges Monval, published by Aux Bureaux de l'Amateur d'autographes, 1900, p. 93 ( https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gRYbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA93) we find an entry for Zaire-Nathalie Martel (1816-1885) who became a Sociètaire January 1, 1852 and retired April 1, 1876.
According to Monval, Bernhardt separated from the theater May 1863. That conflicts with the dates given in the article, which indicates that Bernhardt's conflict with "Madame Nathalie" ooccured in Januay 1862 and her departure from the Comédie-Française occured in early 1862. The article also gives the date of Bernhardt's debut as August 31, 1862, which agrees with Monval (p. 11). Bernhardt can't very well have had her conflict with "Madame Nathalie" before her debut. So I take Monval's date of separation of 1863.
In 1863 Zaire-Nathalie Martel was a Sociétaire. The only other Sociétaire named Nathalie listed in Monval is Anais-Pauline-Nathalie Aubert, who retired in 1851. So it can't be Aubert.
The photo of Martel available at http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/zaire-said-miss-nathalie-martel-comedienne-photo-published-news-photo/89865560#zaire-said-miss-nathalie-martel-comedienne-photo-published-in-of-16-picture-id89865560 does indeed show a woman of significant avoirdupois.
Bernhardt describes "Madame Nathalie" as "old." Martel was 47 in 1863. We might not think of that as "old" but to the 18- or 19-year-old Bernhardt a person 48 years hold, thirty years her senior, probably qualified as "old."
We are left wth Martel as the only candidate.
Poihths ( talk) 20:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
I have made a number of changes to the article in response to the helpful comments made in this section and in the templates.
This article contains two incidents, both while on tour in South America, where Bernhardt leapt at the end of a performance Tosca and missed the mattress which had not been placed correctly. Both times, she hit the stage and injured her knee. This accident eventually led to the amputation of her leg.
Did this really happen twice? Or is it one story that is being recounted in two different years and cities? It seems like an unusual accident to happen twice with such similarities. I was hoping that some editor who has worked on this article or who knows French theater could confirm this. Not having on hand any sources about this actress, I'm unable to confirm or consolidate these reports. Thanks. Liz Read! Talk! 00:02, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It appears that Bernhardt was a mistress of Edward VII of the United Kingdom for a while. Neither article mentions this, so if someone would like to do the research it would be worth adding. -- Solipsist 09:10, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you're going to put someone in the 'gay, lesbian and bisexual people' category, I need some evidence from the article. I have no evidence whatsoever that Sarah Bernhardt isn't a heterosexual. Can someone please put that information in the article? Scott Gall 08:52, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've honestly never read much that suggests that Bernhardt was much of a courtesan, except possibly at the very beginning of her acting career, when she had an affair with Henri de Ligne (have seen it spelled several different ways), the father of her son Maurice. Most of her money throughout her life was made through her work. I've never seen any real confirmation of any supposed affair with Edward, except that she was friendly with at least one of his known mistresses. I don't think she was bursting with the conventional sexual virtue of the period, but overstating her role as courtesan overshadows her excellent business acumen and the fact that she herself tended to support her lovers.
Her career actually began at the French national theater, but legend has it that she was dismissed because she behaved disrespectfully to an established older actress. The story is that Sarah's younger sister Regine was hanging around with her backstage, and during a procession, stood on the train of the gown of an established actress, Madame Nathalie. Nathalie either shoved or slapped Regine, and Sarah slapped Nathalie. Another version of this story has Sarah doing the accidental-standing-on-the-train and being shoved, and Nathalie being slapped. I'm not sure which is more likely, but Regine was very delicate (eventually died quite young), and Sarah was known to have been very motherly towards her, so if someone had behaved violently towards Regine, it seems more likely that Sarah would have risked her career over that than over a personal insult.
In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:11, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone claimed that Tosca, La Traviata, Fedora and La Gioconda, "to name a few" were all operas based on plays written for Bernhardt. I noticed that this certainly is not the case for La Traviata, which was written by Verdi in 1848. Since Bernhardt was only born in 1844, it seemed rather unlikely that she would be playing Violetta, the consumptive courtesan, before the age of 4. Someone should check up on the others too, just to make sure. A possible candidate for replacement here is Salome, which I believe Bernhardt performed before Strauss wrote his opera, though I cannot say if Wilde wrote the play specifically "for" her. Someone should check this up too. Also, I changed the operas to links, while before they were only in caps for some reason. eeesh 15:02, 8 May 2006
I didn't know about Sarah Bernhardt till I heard the song "Practice makes Perfect" by 70s british post-punk band Wire, this is how the lyrics go:
"Practice makes perfect, yes I can prove it Business or pleasure, the more that you do it
Please dress in your best things, this course was unplanned 'Cos you see up in my bedroom I've got Sarah Bernhardt's hand
Practice makes perfect, I've done this before Never for money, always for love
Please dress in your best things, and don't make a fuss 'Cos you see up in my bedroom Sarah's waiting for us"
I don't know if this is so important as to add it on the page but there it is for your judgement.
Sarah Bernhardt (or perhaps her character Princess Fédora) is credited with introducing a soft felt hat that became known the fedora.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=h&Category_Code=mens-fedora-hats&sort=&offset=96</ref> — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.70.8.132 (
talk)
16:03, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Most sources seem to give October 22, not October 23. By the way, "Not to be confused with comedienne Sandra Bernhard" as it says at the top of the page. That's ridiculous -- like saying George V shouldn't be confused with George Burns. It shouldn't be assumed that our readers are complete idiots. Alpheus 08:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I am the biographer of Sarony and am compiling a list of known poses of Bernhardt for Sarony. I can b contacted at broadwayhistory@msn.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.205.169.170 ( talk) 14:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
Removed the sentence that stated she was arguably the most famous actress of the 19th century. Wikipedia Manual of Style defines "arguably" as a Weasel word and states "Weasel words don't really give a neutral point of view; they just spread hearsay, or couch personal opinion in vague or indirect syntax. The consensus of editors responsible for Wikipedia encourages you to name a source rather than assign an opinion to an anonymous source".
More on this can be found at Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words.
The word would be acceptable if a source can be credited to back the statement up. Philbertgray 15:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I think the statement is common knowledge; I would want a citation for the statement that anyone else was *more* famous than Bernhardt. I would simply delete "arguably." -- Andersonblog 20:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 08:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to discuss that image of Hamlet. Although the original image was published before 1923 and is now in the public domain, the image as it now stands is claimed to be a new version. Does that mean that copyright on the image, as it has been substantially altered and amended, is renewed? DrKiernan 10:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
rvondeh@dircon.co.uk adds: as the person who scanned the negative and then spent many hours cleaning it, removing cracks, fixing the lighting, adjusting the contrast, reconstructing parts which were missing - I would state most definitely that the Lafayette Bernhardt image is most certainly not just a simple copy. Anyone with a level of training will note that the photograph as displayed on the Wikipedia page is not a scan from a newspaper - it is far too crisp and has none of the duo-tone problems associated (i.e. small dots or lines). I generally feel that when authors add photographs to Wikipedia by copying them from obviously academic (or otherwise) web sites, the use of a small note requesting permission to use an image would be, at the last, polite. I don't believe that Wikipedia advises its authors to remain within the realms of academic politeness but it would be a step in the right direction.
Was she not also involved with Alexandre Dumas? I believe I have seen somewhere a photo of the two together. LaCritique ( talk) 21:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This page says she was born Marie Henriette Bernardt and that she added an h to her first name which makes no sense. The French page says she was born Henriette Rosine Bernard, the German page says Marie Henriette Rosine Bernard , the Italian, Dutch and Spanish pages say Rosine Bernardt, the Esperanto page (yeah I decided to get to the bottom of this!) says Henriette-Rosine Bernard, the Swedish page says Henriette-Rosine van Hard. I am lost for explanations... Mezigue ( talk) 22:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
If you think that's a conundrum, try this one on for size. The above revelation prompted me to do a similar exercise for her date of birth. I found that Wikipedia is speaking with at least 6 tongues. Her birth date depends on which article you look at:
That's just the ones where I could understand the language, or it was readily apparent what date they were quoting. Only problem is, none of them have the date I came here looking to confirm - 25 September. So, what do we make of all that? Like you, I'm no closer to being convinced about when she was actually born. -- JackofOz ( talk) 14:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I've been away from this article for quite a while, but I see the date "22 October 1844" now appears in the lede without qualification, as if it were incontrovertible fact, and in the infobox with the footnote. I have very strong reservations about this. We simply cannot claim this specific date with any degree of certainty, because any record that might corroborate it has been destroyed. We can't even be absolutely certain about the year 1844, but almost all sources agree on at least this much. Before I make any changes, I'd appreciate some input about what we should do about her birthdate. I'm still very strongly wedded to the idea of showing simply "1844". We should have a section in the article proper discussing the issue, and explaining why we can't be any more specific than "1844", and we could also mention some of the dates that are most commonly found in sources. And then readers can come to their own conclusions. We should not make that conclusion for them, because we simply do not know. -- JackofOz ( talk) 12:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
A book put out by the Bibliotheque nationale de France includes a painting by Bernhardt's friend, Louise Abbema. Apparently, the letter accompanying the painting states that it commemorated the women's relationship. This does not, however, support the idea that Bernhardt was "openly bisexual", since there are no contemporary accounts of her being open about the nature of her relationship with Abbema. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.165.143.249 ( talk) 03:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
The website which was used as a source to support that this 19th century actress “was openly bisexual”, only makes a one-liner assertion. It does not cite any credible contemporary accounts or documents. It's unfair to make deliberate assertions or misinterpreting biographical information on notable people who are deceased. I didn’t see anything about her bisexual tendencies or being “openly bisexual” in her autobiography, Britannica or other biographies.
P.S. Her sexual orientation isn’t an issue, if she was homosexual it wouldn't add or subtract from her legacy, but in the interests of historical scholarship it's important to view facts in their proper context. -- Grinevitski ( talk) 06:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't know the subject at all, but I was surprised to see Sarah Bernhardt in a list of famous 19th-century examples on the Courtesan page. Would this by any estimation be correct? Yours almost- instinct 14:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The most recent modern biographies indicate that when Bernhardt was young, she supplemented her income by taking lovers. (It was commonplace for young actresses, ballet dancers and singers to have "a protector" -- they weren't paid much. Bernhardt found the fact that she was received in upper class English homes surprising, since actresses had the social reputation of, say, strippers, for many in the 19th century.) Skinner (1967) writes that "Her lovers may have given her jewelry and other expensive gifts, even occasional funds, but she never took on on for mercenary purposes." (pg 42) Skinner, however, discounts a contemporary account by a fellow actress, attributing it to jealousy. The more recent biographies, including the 1991 Gold and Fitzdale biography indicate that this contemporary account, though biased, is probably accurate about this, especially since Bernhardt's mother and aunt were both courtesans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.116.123 ( talk) 04:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
In 2007, there was an exhibit on Sarah Bernhardt in the Joods Historisch Museum in Amsterdam. For this exhibit, Harmen Snel, an (/the chief?) archivist of the city of Amsterdam, did research on Sarah's origins, which apparently never had been done properly before(!). He wrote a booklet about it: " The ancestry of Sarah Bernhardt; a myth unraveled." (Jewish Museum of Amsterdam, 2007, ISBN 9789080202931) I'll try to translate what was written in a newspaper article on this here:
...Also he exposes the fraud that the actress, who had grown into an icon of French nationalism, had committed in 1914 to become eligible to receive the Légion d'honneur. She could only obtain that order [which she did] if she could prove to be French. For this reason she falsified her birth record and certificate. Since her father was unknown and she had held the surname Bernhardt her entire life, she made up a father with the name Edouard Bernhardt who supposedly had been a law student from Le Havre. For her unmarried mother, who in reality was named Julie Bernhardt (daughter of Moritz Bernhardt) she made up the new name "Judith van Hard". Snel says that up till now newspapers and biographers have taken Sarah Bernhardt's falsified documents for the real thing and have copied each other blindly. Even the American catalogue made for/before the exhbition [in 2007 in Amsterdam] made that mistake, though the exhibit displayed Snel's discovered facts correctly.
Besides exposing Sarah Bernhardts fraud, Snel also found out facts about her grandfather that explain why she had carefully never mentioned him in her life: grandfather Moritz Bernhardt was not only a spectacle merchant and "optician" of dubious character - he performed for example eye surgeries at street fairs - but also a (not so) petty criminal, perhaps the most notorious one in Amsterdam. Snel: "He committed church robbery, about the worst thing you could do as a Jew, was a pickpocket, committed armed robberies, and was the main suspect of a jewel theft from the royal palace in Brussels. However, he was so clever and glib that he never was convicted for anything"....
This from the Trouw newspaper; there was a similar article on Monday 3, 2008 in Het Parool (search in [6]). I only found one English biography on the web aware of his book.
At any rate, the current text in the wikipedia article seems copied from those sources that "copied each other blindly". If there is anyone with access to the book (anyone visiting the Jewish History Museum, for example), it would be great if he/she can rewrite the early biography (and perhaps mention the fraud). If nothing happens, I'll change it based on the above (and perhaps a bit more digging), but a primary source reference would be much better (the news paper articles may have mistakes in them).
BTW From this website I understand that Snel wrote or implied "Though Sarah celebrated her birthday on October 23rd (this based on a letter she wrote to her lover) October 28th was probably her correct birth date." Afasmit ( talk) 06:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
She had a daughter with her husband, Teresa,I think that this should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.222.242.225 ( talk) 20:50, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/62517/Sarah-Bernhardt/8218/Early-life-and-training#ref181930 (content added here and in subsequent edits by the same contributor). Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Can the fact that the Sarah Bernhardt Peony is named after Sarah Bernhardt please be added to this article somewhere? I have to admint, I'm somewhat stunned it isn't already in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CYL ( talk • contribs) 15:29, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
The IPA pronunciation of Bernhardt's name is not correct compared to the way Sarah pronounced her own name! On many of her recordings, namely the titles recorded for Pathé, Gramophone, and Zon-o-phone in 1902 and 1903, she introduces herself by giving the title of the piece she is going to recite, followed by the phrase "dit par Madame Sarah Bernhardt". I have closely listened to all of her surviving recordings many times, and despite the tendency of the primitive recording equipment used to blur (or completely lose) hard consonants, it's totally clear she always pronounces her family name with a short "a" and an audible final "t", with stress on the second syllable - it would be rhyming with German "vernarrt" (while the present IPA wrongly describes a long "a" and silent "t", like the French male given name "Bernard"). The clearest transcription of one of her records I could find online is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWGjd39dPg8 , there's some other examples on YouTube which all sound identical as regards the pronunciation of the name. Sorry I don't know how to type IPA symbols, but I hope there's people more versed in Wiki editing than myself who can fix the wrong pronunciation. I have not checked yet, but very likely the problem affects other language Wikis as well. ChrisZ78 ( talk) 17:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Surprised and sad to see no mention that she was an accomplished sculptor. (I just saw one of her pieces, and it was truly impressive -- even more so for someone who had so little time to spend sculpting due to her theater work. Will add info, but it would be nice if there was a creative commons photo of one of her sculptures we could inbed. -- Gwengazorn ( talk) 06:46, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
For details, see < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/opinion/22iht-edjohnson.3.19600014.html?%5C_r=0&_r=0> (last retrieved 7/3/13) Arreshl ( talk) 00:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I am working currently to improve the article. . I have added several new sources and added in-line citations to each paragraph, and have restructured and added to several sections, giving citations for each addition. I am also editing and added citations the list of plays in which she performed.
I also am addressing the number of images. I agree that there are too many in the two final galleries; I propose to select a few images from those galleries for inclusion in the article, and then to eliminate those two galleries. The article still needs a few images of her in her later years and final performances, and an image of her in her coffin, which I am trying to find.
Given the length of her career and the number of plays she performed and the things she did, I don't think the current overall length is too excessive. Some of the lists near the end, such as the list of magazine articles, might possibly be shortened or consolidated, and with the galleries gone, it should be within the norm.. .
Suggestions for further additions and changes are welcome. Cordially, SiefkinDR ( talk) 12:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
See if you can get Snel's book; it's an interesting read. Afasmit ( talk) 10:48, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
References
In Ma Double Vie, we have Sarah Bernhardt's story of her confrontation and conflict with "Madame Nathalie." Bernhardt describes this person as "the very fat and solemn Madame Nathalie. She was a Sociètaire of the Comédie, old, spiteful and surly." (anonymous translation published by William Heinemann, 1907, p. 101.)
In Comédie-française (1658-1900): Liste alphabétique des sociétaires depuis Molière jusqu'à nos jours by Georges Monval, published by Aux Bureaux de l'Amateur d'autographes, 1900, p. 93 ( https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gRYbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA93) we find an entry for Zaire-Nathalie Martel (1816-1885) who became a Sociètaire January 1, 1852 and retired April 1, 1876.
According to Monval, Bernhardt separated from the theater May 1863. That conflicts with the dates given in the article, which indicates that Bernhardt's conflict with "Madame Nathalie" ooccured in Januay 1862 and her departure from the Comédie-Française occured in early 1862. The article also gives the date of Bernhardt's debut as August 31, 1862, which agrees with Monval (p. 11). Bernhardt can't very well have had her conflict with "Madame Nathalie" before her debut. So I take Monval's date of separation of 1863.
In 1863 Zaire-Nathalie Martel was a Sociétaire. The only other Sociétaire named Nathalie listed in Monval is Anais-Pauline-Nathalie Aubert, who retired in 1851. So it can't be Aubert.
The photo of Martel available at http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/zaire-said-miss-nathalie-martel-comedienne-photo-published-news-photo/89865560#zaire-said-miss-nathalie-martel-comedienne-photo-published-in-of-16-picture-id89865560 does indeed show a woman of significant avoirdupois.
Bernhardt describes "Madame Nathalie" as "old." Martel was 47 in 1863. We might not think of that as "old" but to the 18- or 19-year-old Bernhardt a person 48 years hold, thirty years her senior, probably qualified as "old."
We are left wth Martel as the only candidate.
Poihths ( talk) 20:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
I have made a number of changes to the article in response to the helpful comments made in this section and in the templates.
This article contains two incidents, both while on tour in South America, where Bernhardt leapt at the end of a performance Tosca and missed the mattress which had not been placed correctly. Both times, she hit the stage and injured her knee. This accident eventually led to the amputation of her leg.
Did this really happen twice? Or is it one story that is being recounted in two different years and cities? It seems like an unusual accident to happen twice with such similarities. I was hoping that some editor who has worked on this article or who knows French theater could confirm this. Not having on hand any sources about this actress, I'm unable to confirm or consolidate these reports. Thanks. Liz Read! Talk! 00:02, 15 December 2019 (UTC)