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"Without effective leadership of their own against the combined might of the Jacobins, the sans-culottes scattered into the rural areas of France to form renegade groups." How many people did this? Presumably, not all of the poor of Paris melted out of the city. Is there some citation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
It is true that the term sans-culottes is pretty general, it does not necessarily mean that they were unorganized and the a group of united sans-culottes managed to storm numerous prisons containing wealthy upper class, performing their own short, quick, trials and executing the prisoners on the spot. This occured during the period known as the
September massacres. --
Jsnit
Also, perhaps to keep the statement more politically correct based on the lack of statistics on how many sans-culottes fled, the statement could be restated to say "some sans-culottes" or "a majority/minority of sans-culottes." JSnit 01:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
While sans-culottes was originally a class term, as I understand it, it came to refer more to people holding a particularly radical (left of Jacobin) political position. Does someone have some citations for the evolution of the use of the term? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the basis for claiming that the term was of aristocratic rather than bourgeois origin? What other theories are there that make us refer to this etymology as "the dominant theory" rather than merely stating it? And is there a citation for any of this? - Jmabel | Talk 16:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
add a section Cal.2018 ( talk) 17:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
add a section on how they impacted the reign of terror and the culture of the revolution. ie legislators, manipulation, and mass violence Cal.2018 ( talk) 17:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
"Culottes" is also french for "knickers" or "panties": http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr?doit=done&intl=1&tt=urltext&trtext=panties&lp=en_fr&btnTrTxt=Translate ("panties" translated into French)
"sans" means "Without". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.47.53 ( talk • contribs) 8 September 2006.
This article positions Robespierre as an "extreme" radical but this was not the case relative to the opinion of the sans-culottes and Hebert, who viewed Robespierre as too moderate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sirgrotius ( talk • contribs) 21 November 2006.
I removed this editorial comment from the article. Maybe it will be useful here. "They didn't support the Jacobins. They supported radicals and the Jacobins were hated by them. And Mr. Laity is wrong." Notinasnaid 08:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Everything is relative, and it appears Robespierre was actually trying to maintain the central position in terms of Revolutionary French politics. Compare his thoughts with Ebert and Danton, both of whom fell either side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.162.20 ( talk) 13:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the San-cullottes were one of the Jacobins' chief sources of support. The Jacobins were radicals, all of whose members in the legislature had voted for the death of the king. Robespierre was the President of the Paris branch of the Jacobin Club, and, hence, the consumate radical. The most radical Leftists tended to be members of the Corderliers Club of Paris, because of the fact that they were poor, and the Cordeliers charged lower dues that did the Jacobins. Marat & Danton were both members of the Cordeliers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edmonddantes92091 ( talk • contribs) 04:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Two of the three sans-culottes in the bottom picture are, in fact, wearing culottes. Does that confuse the issue? Susan Davis ( talk) 20:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
to bad you are both wrong the sans culottes was a group of pretty much peasents who became uncontrolable and began to kill wrecklessly. They hated aristocrats and pretty much everyone who had money or property value. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:|User:]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs) 24 January 2009
Regarding Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pantlessness: the sans-culottes were not "without pants". This is a mis-translation. Culottes are distinct from trousers, and that was the distinction: see the contemporary images of sans-culottes for evidence. I've corrected this article appropriately. -- The Anome ( talk) 16:57, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Sans-culottes/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
It's mostly text from 1911 Britannica, but there are significant contributions from other sources. There are two illustrations. A note in the "Sources" indicate they are incomplete, probably meaning there is text which can't be found in either 1911 or the other ref cited. This needs to be fixed, and probably more details on this group could be provided. Maybe some French Revolution infobox would be appropriate. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 11:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 11:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 05:26, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
This article and others employ a variety of styles for the term sans-culotte. Before I begin trying to standardise them, I thought I should seek some sort of consensus here.
The most common style seems to be lower case, hyphenated, italicised: singular sans-culotte, plural sans-culottes. In French, the word culotte is a feminine singular, so the garment is properly a culotte, not culottes. There are adjectival uses of the term in which the singular use seems appropriate: "sans-culotte army", not "sans-culottes army", for example.
In this article in particular, is it appropriate to italicise every example of the term? At present, most of the examples toward the beginning of the article are italicised, while many toward the end are not. I've obtained a copy of Soboul's The Sans-Culottes, and the choice made in the English translation is not to italicise the phrase at all.
What say you all?
Jean-de-Nivelle ( talk) 17:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
{{
lang}}
everywhere for this French term, so it would be convenient (and consistent with MOS recommendation regarding foreign language text) to italicise it. I've been rendering it in sentence case without any particular thought for consensus (just
WP:BOLD, it seems the natural way to do it). The hyphen seems universal, being a way to make it a noun-phrase term rather than just an adjectival phrase. Regarding that and also plurals, we should generally do whatever the English-language sources do – if that's inconsistent with French-language sources or even French grammar, that's an interesting historiographical datum but shouldn't ultimately affect what we do here on English Wikipedia.
Hairy Dude (
talk)
03:34, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
"Without effective leadership of their own against the combined might of the Jacobins, the sans-culottes scattered into the rural areas of France to form renegade groups." How many people did this? Presumably, not all of the poor of Paris melted out of the city. Is there some citation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
It is true that the term sans-culottes is pretty general, it does not necessarily mean that they were unorganized and the a group of united sans-culottes managed to storm numerous prisons containing wealthy upper class, performing their own short, quick, trials and executing the prisoners on the spot. This occured during the period known as the
September massacres. --
Jsnit
Also, perhaps to keep the statement more politically correct based on the lack of statistics on how many sans-culottes fled, the statement could be restated to say "some sans-culottes" or "a majority/minority of sans-culottes." JSnit 01:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
While sans-culottes was originally a class term, as I understand it, it came to refer more to people holding a particularly radical (left of Jacobin) political position. Does someone have some citations for the evolution of the use of the term? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
What is the basis for claiming that the term was of aristocratic rather than bourgeois origin? What other theories are there that make us refer to this etymology as "the dominant theory" rather than merely stating it? And is there a citation for any of this? - Jmabel | Talk 16:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
add a section Cal.2018 ( talk) 17:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
add a section on how they impacted the reign of terror and the culture of the revolution. ie legislators, manipulation, and mass violence Cal.2018 ( talk) 17:37, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
"Culottes" is also french for "knickers" or "panties": http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr?doit=done&intl=1&tt=urltext&trtext=panties&lp=en_fr&btnTrTxt=Translate ("panties" translated into French)
"sans" means "Without". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.47.53 ( talk • contribs) 8 September 2006.
This article positions Robespierre as an "extreme" radical but this was not the case relative to the opinion of the sans-culottes and Hebert, who viewed Robespierre as too moderate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sirgrotius ( talk • contribs) 21 November 2006.
I removed this editorial comment from the article. Maybe it will be useful here. "They didn't support the Jacobins. They supported radicals and the Jacobins were hated by them. And Mr. Laity is wrong." Notinasnaid 08:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Everything is relative, and it appears Robespierre was actually trying to maintain the central position in terms of Revolutionary French politics. Compare his thoughts with Ebert and Danton, both of whom fell either side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.162.20 ( talk) 13:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the San-cullottes were one of the Jacobins' chief sources of support. The Jacobins were radicals, all of whose members in the legislature had voted for the death of the king. Robespierre was the President of the Paris branch of the Jacobin Club, and, hence, the consumate radical. The most radical Leftists tended to be members of the Corderliers Club of Paris, because of the fact that they were poor, and the Cordeliers charged lower dues that did the Jacobins. Marat & Danton were both members of the Cordeliers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edmonddantes92091 ( talk • contribs) 04:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Two of the three sans-culottes in the bottom picture are, in fact, wearing culottes. Does that confuse the issue? Susan Davis ( talk) 20:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
to bad you are both wrong the sans culottes was a group of pretty much peasents who became uncontrolable and began to kill wrecklessly. They hated aristocrats and pretty much everyone who had money or property value. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:|User:]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs) 24 January 2009
Regarding Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pantlessness: the sans-culottes were not "without pants". This is a mis-translation. Culottes are distinct from trousers, and that was the distinction: see the contemporary images of sans-culottes for evidence. I've corrected this article appropriately. -- The Anome ( talk) 16:57, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Sans-culottes/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
It's mostly text from 1911 Britannica, but there are significant contributions from other sources. There are two illustrations. A note in the "Sources" indicate they are incomplete, probably meaning there is text which can't be found in either 1911 or the other ref cited. This needs to be fixed, and probably more details on this group could be provided. Maybe some French Revolution infobox would be appropriate. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 11:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 11:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 05:26, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
This article and others employ a variety of styles for the term sans-culotte. Before I begin trying to standardise them, I thought I should seek some sort of consensus here.
The most common style seems to be lower case, hyphenated, italicised: singular sans-culotte, plural sans-culottes. In French, the word culotte is a feminine singular, so the garment is properly a culotte, not culottes. There are adjectival uses of the term in which the singular use seems appropriate: "sans-culotte army", not "sans-culottes army", for example.
In this article in particular, is it appropriate to italicise every example of the term? At present, most of the examples toward the beginning of the article are italicised, while many toward the end are not. I've obtained a copy of Soboul's The Sans-Culottes, and the choice made in the English translation is not to italicise the phrase at all.
What say you all?
Jean-de-Nivelle ( talk) 17:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
{{
lang}}
everywhere for this French term, so it would be convenient (and consistent with MOS recommendation regarding foreign language text) to italicise it. I've been rendering it in sentence case without any particular thought for consensus (just
WP:BOLD, it seems the natural way to do it). The hyphen seems universal, being a way to make it a noun-phrase term rather than just an adjectival phrase. Regarding that and also plurals, we should generally do whatever the English-language sources do – if that's inconsistent with French-language sources or even French grammar, that's an interesting historiographical datum but shouldn't ultimately affect what we do here on English Wikipedia.
Hairy Dude (
talk)
03:34, 30 November 2022 (UTC)