This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sanaa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Faraz khan raja — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.184.189 ( talk) 14:47, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi all, the lead says Sana'a is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world. However, Sana'a is not listed at the linked place and no references have been provided for that claim. Is there no source for when it was established, even approximately (which century, even millenium)? -- Pgallert ( talk) 09:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: There is consensus to move the article to Sanaa without any marks, and this article will be moved accordingly. No action will be taken on related articles, but a multi RM is encouraged — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 21:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC) — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 21:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Sanaʽa → Sana'a – Curly apostrophes are discouraged even in titles per MOS:CURLY. Jalen Folf (talk) 03:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
..., various apostrophe(-like) variants (’ʻ ʾ ʿ ᾿ ῾ ‘ ’ c), should generally not be used in page titles. A common exception is the apostrophe character (') itself (e.g. Anthony d'Offay), which should, however, be used sparingly (e.g. Quran instead of Qur'an). If, exceptionally, other variants are used, a redirect with the apostrophe variant should be created (e.g. 'Abdu'l-Bahá redirects to `Abdu'l-Bahá).
It's an ayin. A straight apostrophe could be a typewriter substitution for either an ayin or a glottal stop, so such usage would be ambiguous. (A reader wouldn't know if it's supposed to be Sanaʽa or Sanaʼa.) At least, I don't think we purposefully misspell the titles of our articles like that. Also, a straight apostrophe is a punctuation mark, and this isn't -- it's a letter. It's equivalent to the many WP articles that use the Hawaiian ʻokina, like ʻIolani Palace, Queen Liliʻuokalani, the interstellar asteroid ʻOumuamua, Kaʻaʻawa, Hawaii, Israel Kamakawiwoʻole, Auliʻi Cravalho, Hōkūleʻa, Lōʻihi Seamount, etc. Also the IPA glottalization diacritic in the TNO 229762 Gǃkúnǁʼhòmdímà (that <ǃ> is not an exclamation mark either, but a letter from the Khoekhoe alphabet), Kwakʼwala and their language Kwakwakaʼwakw, etc. In the past, those have been accepted under the argument that they're an IPA and alphabetic diacritic/letter, not an apostrophe, and that the 'no curly apostrophe' rule was intended to stop edit wars over whether or not to use curly apostrophes as punctuation.
ISO is starting to replace straight ASCII apostrophes with Unicode ayin, aspiration and glottal stop in language names.
There are other articles where a straight "apostrophe" is retained, but it's actually the saltillo <Ꞌ ꞌ>. People might not object to that because it's not curly, but it's the same kind of use of a dedicated Unicode character instead of substituting an alphabetic letter with a punctuation mark. — kwami ( talk) 05:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
"Sanaa" would be acceptable, IMO, if people judge it to be sufficiently anglicized (like we have "Hawaii" instead of "Hawaiʻi". `Abdu'l-Bahá is a stupid example, and should be moved. It's the worst of ASCII substitutions for names people can't be bothered to typeset correctly, and there's no excuse for it now that we have Unicode. It would've been okay in the early 1990s when people were still printing on dot-matrix, but not now. — kwami ( talk) 05:30, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Hope I didn't mis any, and avoided doubles. When moving Sana'a (and variants) to the related Sanaʽa variant, there's not only a multi RM with 23 pages, but also a multi CfD for 19 categories (where I don't know very well whether RMs and CfDs can be united in a single procedure). When proposing to move all Sanaʽa (and variants) to the corresponding Sana'a version, there's only a multi RM with 26 pages to consider. Moving all to the Sanaa variant (without ayin or apostrophe) would involve 48 pages and 19 categories, while currently there's afaik not a single page or category with a referral to the Yemeni city in its name that uses a diacritic-free name variant. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I moved to <Sanaa> those I could, but left a (Unicode) ayin for the schools that has established English spellings with ayin. — kwami ( talk) 01:23, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The closure report mentioned "... a multi RM is encouraged", so I propose to proceed with one. Several pages were moved to the "Sanaa" version, leaving others at "Sana'a" or "Sanaʽa" if I understand correctly (will try to make an overview later today). This means that there is even less consistency than before the 14 November RM, thus calling for a multi, as recommended by the closer of that RM. Afaics there has been no effort, thus far, to harmonise article content to new page names which is also something that should be looked into (although not part of RM proceedings). Since all categories are still at the "Sana'a" version afaics, and I'd try to avoid a combined multi-RM and multi-CfD (which I don't even know how to conduct), and the "Sana'a" version seems very common in various reliable sources, I'd try to harmonise on that version – despite the outcome of the closed RM (I suppose potential !voters might have refrained from participating in that RM seeing that a multi was more than likely to come). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:38, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi I just want to note that Sana'a city is different geographically from the old city. The old city is part of Sana'a city but it is not the Sana'a city. Even in Arabic Wikipedia we have a separated article for the old city. Yet this article says that the official name of Sana'a city is the old city of Sana'a which is not true. The official name is Amanat al-Asimah which is usually translated to "Sana'a" in English, that's per my passport which says in Arabic that I was born in Amant al-Asimah but in English it is translated to Sana'a.-- SharabSalam ( talk) 09:18, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
The WHS website uses both ⟨ Sana'a⟩ and ⟨ Sana’a⟩ (in the possessive ⟨Sana’a’s⟩), the same in French, but just ⟨Sana’a⟩ in Dutch and Spanish. In other words, they just stuck something between the a's, but don't seem to have cared what it was, and presumably let their word-processor decide. In Dutch and Spanish, as well as in the English and French text, that means they got it backwards, as hamza rather than ayin. So while this is an argument to write the ayin, it doesn't do anything for how it should be written. — kwami ( talk) 22:42, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Three articles cited at fr:Sanaa#Musique which could be read and cited on the article in both languages. [1] [2] [3] Sorry I don't have time right now but maybe someday, and maybe another french translator does. Thanks 3 kids in a trenchcoat and good luck.
I asked for research help on the discussion page at fr:Discussion:Sanaa#Musique_et_chant_de_Sanaa, maybe in a few months something will appear there that can be translated. Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:26, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
References
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
It would seem to me that there is a couple topics being discussed in this article that would probably be best handled by separating the information into 2 or 3 articles. User SharabSalam has already noted that the Arabic wikipedia separates the old city from the modern distinction within Yemen, I think that a similar distinction could be useful here, as well as perhaps a sub article which discusses the history of the city. The way the article is currently designed, a lot of space and words are dedicated to the history of the city, which though is interesting, is not particularly relevant to the current demographic, cultural, and geopolitical situation of the city, which might be more important to a reader today. If the history section was shortened to a paragraph equating something to the effect of "... the city has had historical prominence both before and after the arrival of Islam. It had high importance to pre-European Colonial trade societies, and high importance to post-European Colonial islamic academic culture. In recent centuries the city has dealt with instability" this would allow more space and research to current concerns and situations about the city.
In short, I would create two sub articles, one discussing the UNESCO heritage cite of the old city of Sana'a, and one discussing the history, while the current article would be shortened by removing the history, and then could put more focus on current situations which aren't given the full space they deserve. -- Smike0512 ( talk) 16:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 25 April 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Smike0512 ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Smike0512 ( talk) 16:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
The history of the Jewish population seems very short. Anyway to make it longer? It's very interesting. Thanks! Lotrfan12345 ( talk) 18:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
While reading through this page I thought it was very well rounded and features a ton of rich information and details about Sanaa, especially for a middle eastern city. Some things I would like to see different though are as follows: I think this page in particular has a difficult time with hyperlinks. These are what make wikipedia useable and its more general topic pages digestible! Something that struck me was the conornavirus section. After having read through it, I failed to see what about Sanaa's experience with covid was so unique that it warranted its own section. The information is useful to some extent, but at this rate, why not have a corona section for every city that was affected? Does it need its own subsection if the cholera outbreak doesn't? I think more information and a greater discussion on solar panels and a consolidation of discussion on the city's energy needs would help keep the page more organized and useful to others - i.e the transportation section talks a lot about energy and resources, so why not have it as part of an energy subsection? Thanks and take care! Matthew Dottor ( talk) 05:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sanaa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Faraz khan raja — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.184.189 ( talk) 14:47, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi all, the lead says Sana'a is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world. However, Sana'a is not listed at the linked place and no references have been provided for that claim. Is there no source for when it was established, even approximately (which century, even millenium)? -- Pgallert ( talk) 09:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: There is consensus to move the article to Sanaa without any marks, and this article will be moved accordingly. No action will be taken on related articles, but a multi RM is encouraged — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 21:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC) — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 21:37, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Sanaʽa → Sana'a – Curly apostrophes are discouraged even in titles per MOS:CURLY. Jalen Folf (talk) 03:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
..., various apostrophe(-like) variants (’ʻ ʾ ʿ ᾿ ῾ ‘ ’ c), should generally not be used in page titles. A common exception is the apostrophe character (') itself (e.g. Anthony d'Offay), which should, however, be used sparingly (e.g. Quran instead of Qur'an). If, exceptionally, other variants are used, a redirect with the apostrophe variant should be created (e.g. 'Abdu'l-Bahá redirects to `Abdu'l-Bahá).
It's an ayin. A straight apostrophe could be a typewriter substitution for either an ayin or a glottal stop, so such usage would be ambiguous. (A reader wouldn't know if it's supposed to be Sanaʽa or Sanaʼa.) At least, I don't think we purposefully misspell the titles of our articles like that. Also, a straight apostrophe is a punctuation mark, and this isn't -- it's a letter. It's equivalent to the many WP articles that use the Hawaiian ʻokina, like ʻIolani Palace, Queen Liliʻuokalani, the interstellar asteroid ʻOumuamua, Kaʻaʻawa, Hawaii, Israel Kamakawiwoʻole, Auliʻi Cravalho, Hōkūleʻa, Lōʻihi Seamount, etc. Also the IPA glottalization diacritic in the TNO 229762 Gǃkúnǁʼhòmdímà (that <ǃ> is not an exclamation mark either, but a letter from the Khoekhoe alphabet), Kwakʼwala and their language Kwakwakaʼwakw, etc. In the past, those have been accepted under the argument that they're an IPA and alphabetic diacritic/letter, not an apostrophe, and that the 'no curly apostrophe' rule was intended to stop edit wars over whether or not to use curly apostrophes as punctuation.
ISO is starting to replace straight ASCII apostrophes with Unicode ayin, aspiration and glottal stop in language names.
There are other articles where a straight "apostrophe" is retained, but it's actually the saltillo <Ꞌ ꞌ>. People might not object to that because it's not curly, but it's the same kind of use of a dedicated Unicode character instead of substituting an alphabetic letter with a punctuation mark. — kwami ( talk) 05:25, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
"Sanaa" would be acceptable, IMO, if people judge it to be sufficiently anglicized (like we have "Hawaii" instead of "Hawaiʻi". `Abdu'l-Bahá is a stupid example, and should be moved. It's the worst of ASCII substitutions for names people can't be bothered to typeset correctly, and there's no excuse for it now that we have Unicode. It would've been okay in the early 1990s when people were still printing on dot-matrix, but not now. — kwami ( talk) 05:30, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Hope I didn't mis any, and avoided doubles. When moving Sana'a (and variants) to the related Sanaʽa variant, there's not only a multi RM with 23 pages, but also a multi CfD for 19 categories (where I don't know very well whether RMs and CfDs can be united in a single procedure). When proposing to move all Sanaʽa (and variants) to the corresponding Sana'a version, there's only a multi RM with 26 pages to consider. Moving all to the Sanaa variant (without ayin or apostrophe) would involve 48 pages and 19 categories, while currently there's afaik not a single page or category with a referral to the Yemeni city in its name that uses a diacritic-free name variant. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I moved to <Sanaa> those I could, but left a (Unicode) ayin for the schools that has established English spellings with ayin. — kwami ( talk) 01:23, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The closure report mentioned "... a multi RM is encouraged", so I propose to proceed with one. Several pages were moved to the "Sanaa" version, leaving others at "Sana'a" or "Sanaʽa" if I understand correctly (will try to make an overview later today). This means that there is even less consistency than before the 14 November RM, thus calling for a multi, as recommended by the closer of that RM. Afaics there has been no effort, thus far, to harmonise article content to new page names which is also something that should be looked into (although not part of RM proceedings). Since all categories are still at the "Sana'a" version afaics, and I'd try to avoid a combined multi-RM and multi-CfD (which I don't even know how to conduct), and the "Sana'a" version seems very common in various reliable sources, I'd try to harmonise on that version – despite the outcome of the closed RM (I suppose potential !voters might have refrained from participating in that RM seeing that a multi was more than likely to come). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:38, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi I just want to note that Sana'a city is different geographically from the old city. The old city is part of Sana'a city but it is not the Sana'a city. Even in Arabic Wikipedia we have a separated article for the old city. Yet this article says that the official name of Sana'a city is the old city of Sana'a which is not true. The official name is Amanat al-Asimah which is usually translated to "Sana'a" in English, that's per my passport which says in Arabic that I was born in Amant al-Asimah but in English it is translated to Sana'a.-- SharabSalam ( talk) 09:18, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
The WHS website uses both ⟨ Sana'a⟩ and ⟨ Sana’a⟩ (in the possessive ⟨Sana’a’s⟩), the same in French, but just ⟨Sana’a⟩ in Dutch and Spanish. In other words, they just stuck something between the a's, but don't seem to have cared what it was, and presumably let their word-processor decide. In Dutch and Spanish, as well as in the English and French text, that means they got it backwards, as hamza rather than ayin. So while this is an argument to write the ayin, it doesn't do anything for how it should be written. — kwami ( talk) 22:42, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Three articles cited at fr:Sanaa#Musique which could be read and cited on the article in both languages. [1] [2] [3] Sorry I don't have time right now but maybe someday, and maybe another french translator does. Thanks 3 kids in a trenchcoat and good luck.
I asked for research help on the discussion page at fr:Discussion:Sanaa#Musique_et_chant_de_Sanaa, maybe in a few months something will appear there that can be translated. Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:26, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
References
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
It would seem to me that there is a couple topics being discussed in this article that would probably be best handled by separating the information into 2 or 3 articles. User SharabSalam has already noted that the Arabic wikipedia separates the old city from the modern distinction within Yemen, I think that a similar distinction could be useful here, as well as perhaps a sub article which discusses the history of the city. The way the article is currently designed, a lot of space and words are dedicated to the history of the city, which though is interesting, is not particularly relevant to the current demographic, cultural, and geopolitical situation of the city, which might be more important to a reader today. If the history section was shortened to a paragraph equating something to the effect of "... the city has had historical prominence both before and after the arrival of Islam. It had high importance to pre-European Colonial trade societies, and high importance to post-European Colonial islamic academic culture. In recent centuries the city has dealt with instability" this would allow more space and research to current concerns and situations about the city.
In short, I would create two sub articles, one discussing the UNESCO heritage cite of the old city of Sana'a, and one discussing the history, while the current article would be shortened by removing the history, and then could put more focus on current situations which aren't given the full space they deserve. -- Smike0512 ( talk) 16:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 25 April 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Smike0512 ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Smike0512 ( talk) 16:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
The history of the Jewish population seems very short. Anyway to make it longer? It's very interesting. Thanks! Lotrfan12345 ( talk) 18:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
While reading through this page I thought it was very well rounded and features a ton of rich information and details about Sanaa, especially for a middle eastern city. Some things I would like to see different though are as follows: I think this page in particular has a difficult time with hyperlinks. These are what make wikipedia useable and its more general topic pages digestible! Something that struck me was the conornavirus section. After having read through it, I failed to see what about Sanaa's experience with covid was so unique that it warranted its own section. The information is useful to some extent, but at this rate, why not have a corona section for every city that was affected? Does it need its own subsection if the cholera outbreak doesn't? I think more information and a greater discussion on solar panels and a consolidation of discussion on the city's energy needs would help keep the page more organized and useful to others - i.e the transportation section talks a lot about energy and resources, so why not have it as part of an energy subsection? Thanks and take care! Matthew Dottor ( talk) 05:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)