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Should the name of this article be "Samuel R. Delany" instead of "Samuel Delany"? That is how the author is named on all his published work.
Could someone also add a pronounciation guide as well? It would be a great help to non-native english speakers as myself, espescially since his name keeps being misspellled. I have no idea if it's Delaney or Delany or some other way entirely. Axel Löfving ( talk) 16:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I removed the phrase "though this is a sobriquet and not part of his actual name" from the first sentence of the body of the article; the article reads more smoothly without it. I'll add an IPA pronunciation of the name per Axel Löfving's request. Skald the Rhymer ( talk) 17:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone else think the phrase "extreme aspects of human sexuality" is POV? --MJ
"Moot" means debatable, not irrelevant. 71.245.114.202 ( talk) 04:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)Miles Archer
To be consistent with other wiki articles about writers, should the biographical material be a section "below the line," and perhaps filled out a bit, with a more general "who is SRD?" statement "above the line?" [User:Sturgeonslawyer|Sturgeonslawyer]
I strongly disagree with this statement. It is untrue, trivial, and misleading:
"Delany vaulted onto the literary stage when he was included in Harlan Ellison's Dangerous Visions. Harlan gave a short introduction that ironically pointed out how Delany was one of the last straight science fiction authors. "
Dangerous Visions was published in 1967. Delany did not 'vault' onto any 'literary stage' at that point; he was a published science fiction author of six science fiction novels and one novella, all published by Ace. 'Literary stage' is misleading and hackneyed.
The stuff about the short introduction to him in Dangerous Visions is at best irrelevant. It's not an important milestone in his life or the science fiction field.
If I don't hear some comments for keeping it, I'd like to take it out.
ZviGilbert 20:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I fixed it and moved it under 'Other Facts' where it belongs. ZviGilbert 20:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Probably the Neveryon books should not be under "novels" in the bibliography - three of the four are collections of novellas and short stories. Does anyone have any strong objection to moving them? [User:Sturgeonslawyer|Sturgeonslawyer]
The pop-up text on the image has his first name misspelled "Sauel", but I don't know how to fix that. (Ironically, part of the article mentions his name being frequently misspelled!)
How to rephrase this? Given SRD's orientation, the quote "Delany was one of the last straight science fiction authors" acquires an unintentional ambiguity. Tearlach 7 July 2005 01:50 (UTC)
Samuel R. Delany is bisexual see his own words in his own writing in his memoir The Motion of Light in Water. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.163.99 ( talk) 21:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
What is the context of the word? What precedes and follows the word? The way I read it, it can have two (one unintentional) meaning(s). Straight as a sexual reference or straight as in straight (up), unadulterated, incontrovertible, unequivocal, science fiction writer; or in another form straight-science-fiction-writer, no waffling, no ambiguity, definitely science fiction with no leakage of other genres into his writing. The following entry of the "Genre?" section of talk is a specific example:
–––– Actually, I said that he should NOT be genrefied - i.e. it should not list him specifically as a "science fiction author". He actually hasn't written [straight science fiction] in roughly 30 years. Luminifer (talk) 01:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC) ––––
Perhaps this appearant ambiguity can be explored further so it can be stated clearly. Quisizyx ( talk) 07:12, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
They Fly At Ciron [1] is missing, but I'm only familiar with the 1996 reprint [2]. Given the disparity in page lengths (171 vs 256) I'm uncertain of differences.
Should there be a discussion of the repeated imagery woven into Delany's works? Perhaps as a part of the Themes section? Some examples would be a character missing one shoe or biting his nails. Or the name of the city in both Dhalgren and Trouble on Triton being "Bellona."
Is this worth expanding upon? -- Kdring 23:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Besides the "The Dartmouth" cite, Google returns over 100,000 hits for "samuel chip delany", most of which refer to the subject of this article. I'd move it back to the lead, but there was at least a little resistance to that. -- SatyrTN ( talk | contribs) 02:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the "more sources" template from the article because I don't see anything that particularly needs a citation. If there are facts that you think ought to be referenced, please indicate them within the body of the text so I can supply a reference for them. Jd4v15 06:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I was startled to find (on a search on 28 aug 07) that Amazon lists just ONE title by Delaney, and B&N.com only ONE (a different one). None of the novels or critical works cited are listed for current purchase. Can it be true that all of this author's works are so out of print as not to merit listing? Or is something more nefarious going on?
Shouldn't information about his work come before his biography? The main reason we are interested is his stories. Life.temp ( talk) 23:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
However it is ordered, shouldn't it be Life and Works rather than Biography/Themes? The word 'Themes' in particular seems to make too little of Delany as a writer. His work is so much more than a collection of thematic preoccupations.
While I share the dislike of criticism that makes the work secondary to the life, the following points could be made: 1] Life seems to precede Works in major author articles on Wikipedia. (though I'm sure there are exceptions) 2] Delany has (at times) made books out of his own life, both in writing memoirs and in explicitly introducing topics related to his times and experiences into his fiction. 3] Perhaps the introduction paragraph should emphasise his work in order to solve the problem identified by Life.temp? I'm not a regular editor at all, so please forgive me if these points aren't helpful. Millichip ( talk) 12:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
"also published as the substantially different, more definitive[4] Out of the Dead City" To my mind, if a book is published under a different title and substantially different content, it is a different book. So 'also published as' is not quite right. Also, the reference cited isn't much use - is Delany saying that Out of the Dead City is more 'definitive' a telling of the same story? As Out of the Dead City is a rewritten version pub.1968, the edition cited must be after this time. Should we just have an entry in 1968 for Out of the Dead City, perhaps with explanatory text? Clearly this needs to be in the bibliography, along with Delany's reasoning (if that is what is referred to by the citation). I just don't think we are doing it correctly at the moment. Millichip ( talk) 08:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
So a citation is needed on something that was added a few days ago. The request for a citation was made on the third of July, and the item was removed before the next business day? Why not give someone a chance to actually cite something?
Furthermore, did anyone notice that the IP address that was used to make the addition was from Boston University? Since that archival center is IN Boston University, it makes sense that someone there would know better than most.
Finally, just a bit of Google research turned up a page on the Archival Center site (part of the BU main site) that lists "Twentieth and Twenty-First Century individuals collected by the Center." Yes, on that list is one "Samuel R. Delany." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdring ( talk • contribs) 22:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, this quick removal intrigued me, too. A little further into the library site, there is a page suggesting that the Delany holdings are being updated. I've just sent a request to the librarian to explain what this means. [3] Millichip ( talk) 10:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I see this has been reinserted already, but here is what the library told me via email: "Yes, Samuel Delany's papers are housed at the Howard Gotlieb Archival Research Center at Boston University. The page with the collection's scope and his biography is currently being updated." Millichip ( talk) 15:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I think that the bibliography might want to be its own page by now - it's pretty big, and there's a lot of textual stuff that can be added on the nature/history of various reprints... Anyone agree? Luminifer ( talk) 22:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Is that link really necessary? I know there's a video (one of eight) about Delany, but the site is about Fred Barney Taylor, not Delany, and I'm not sure it's all that important. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 19:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't know a great deal about WP conventions (or about Delany), so forgive me if this is gormless. I found the link quite an interesting insight into Delany's life at the beginning of his career. I guess the part of WP:NOT invoked is "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files", that is to say, the only reason the link can take up space on the crowded page is if it contributes to the understanding of the subject on its own terms. I must say, I think it does. I'm not sure what else 'necessary' means in this context. WP is not a paper encyclopaedia, but neither is it an indiscriminate collection of information. THe answer lies somehwere in the middle, and I would suggest keeping the link, perhaps tying it into the biographical material a little more. Millichip ( talk) 22:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The following is unsourced information:
While this is interesting, we can't use it unless you provide a source. Also, none of this is really trivia, as trivia by its definition is "unimportant information" - it therefore shouldn't be in a trivia section but instead the information should be incorporated into the main article. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 03:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit changed his identity to African American. I would have thought that the national identity in the first para would be that which he has on his passport. Of course his identity as an African American may be (and in this case, of course, is) immensely important to the subject. But presumably style would suggest a neutral, value-free approach and a simple' American', with something about his African American identity high up in the article? I haven't changed because I'm no expert on these matters in Wiki, but if no-one objects I will. Millichip ( talk) 10:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The fact that people seem to committed to omitting the fact that he's African-American is very telling. It's important enough to people to point out that the first sentence in the lede usually refers to nationality, which is an excellent way to safeguard unexamined racist ideology and camouflage it behind rules. But the fact that nobody thinks it's significant at all to point out his groundbreaking status as specifically African-American writer any where in the article speaks volumes about science fiction fans and Wikipedia editors in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.105.247.189 ( talk) 16:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The initial paragraph of the article mentions that Delany is a Science Fiction author. I don't know if that's true, any more. Yes, he wrote a great deal of SF, but he is also a critic and has written quite a lot of non-SF fiction. Should he just be an "American writer"? Kdring ( talk) 17:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Chip did not stop being a science fiction writer and science fiction critic when he started getting university teaching gigs. He remains, for example, a contributing editor to The New York Review of Science Fiction. He has not in any way tried to distance himself from science fiction although he has actively engaged himself in a number of other communities. -- Pleasantville ( talk) 12:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC) aka Kathryn Cramer
There's a neat little Invisible Theater[ article, which claims it to be a very recent phenomenon. I recall that Chip Delany had a troupe of folks doing this (street theater that just ppopped up) in one of his great mainstream SF novels, but which one? Thx in advance. Bellagio99 ( talk) 14:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I have had my edits undone a total of four times by different folks. Today they rolled them back twice immediately after I restored AND edited my material regarding Delany's endorsement of NAMBLA that cannot be linked to directly do to the NAMBLA URL being blacklisted by Wikipedia. I did however find an additional endorsement that is in a published interview. If I find this undone, I can only be left to suspect an intentional effort to suppress the truth of his public statements.
Here is the text in question:
On June 25th 1994, Delany endorsed "The NAMBLA Bulletin" in the following quote to "Queer Desire's Forum" in New York City:
"I read The NAMBLA Bulletin fairly regularly and I think it is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I've ever found. ... Before you start judging what NAMBLA is about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about, the issues they are really talking about; and deal with what's really there rather than this demonized notion of guys running about trying to screw little boys. I would have been so much happier as an adolescent if NAMBLA had been around when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.".
His endorsement as of this edit, is prominently posted on NAMBLA's subscription page for their periodical. A direct link for reference citation to the quoted endorsement above is blacklisted by Wikipedia and is partially included in text for this reason: nambla.org/delaney.html.In a 2004 interview about his novel Hogg he stated he supported a group like NAMBLA.[11]
To circumvent the blacklisting, I used a partial url in text. The individual STILL undid the entire section without warning. How about at least sending me a message and if I do not respond within 24 hours, feel free to edit away, but you had better be justified. The fact that Delany has endorsed NAMBLA publicly does not make it vandalism to cite it. It is relevant considering the body of all his works. Please leave my edits in place. if you do not have justification to rightly undo them as some have done.
The correctly cited and truthful statements I edited are not defamation, slander, or vandalism. They are the truth. Please note that I left out any hint of opinion and only cited quotes directly from Delaney himself, who actively supports his narrative regarding NAMBLA. MelvinPS ( talk) 00:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.67.179 ( talk) 22:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
|icon
(5 bytes) in the lead sentence. --which User:Lfdder has now fixed with no other change (-5 bytes).My edit was undone three times today [2013-08-02 -p64] by three different people. No worries if the claims are legit. I will even accept the trivial claims of the first two, although very weak, but the last did not even leave a reason for edit. incidentally, as fast as I posted the revisions to comply, they were undone by different users each time. Consider that my original edit stood for months without being challenged. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck,....just sayin'....You want the truth? Well it seems some can't handle it and choose to use trivial tactics to suppress it. Stand up and debate this like an honorable person! Don't hide behind trivial issues. One of you actually informed me to hash it out here AFTER I had already made my case here. I get confused too, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and am willing to resolve this issue here and now. Relevant truth matters folks. Don't ever forget it or willfully ignore it. Stand up and be counted, but for God's sake stand up and be truthful. MelvinPS ( talk) 00:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
|icon
--what's that about? (that has been fixed)Black Bishop
capitalized --why? (that persists)I don't see how or why Delany's POV on NAMBLA is relevant, since no secondary source is cited connecting either his opinion of the organization or of its cause to the body of work which makes him notable. It strikes me as sensationalizing and undue weight. I object to its inclusion until and unless it has been demonstrated here that there is a consensus for inclusion based on relevance, especially since I see that others have also repeatedly objected and removed the material. PlayCuz ( talk) 02:28, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
There's an interview with him here:
http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-conversation-with-samuel-r-delany.html
In which he explains his views on NAMBLA at some length. Certainly I think it should be included, but I don't want to jump into an edit war. Baron ridiculous ( talk) 04:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
How can an article which makes such wide mention of the author's ideas of sexuality in his writing *not* find his POV on NAMBLA as relevant?
An author's world view is fundamentally tied to their work. How they present ideas, oppose them, and even challenge their own, is permeated by that world view. Thus, what Delany thinks about the concept of adult-adolescent/adult-child sexual relations is an integral factor in his thinking while writing, and their presentation on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.52.212 ( talk) 16:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Section 1 is a disaster at from mid-paragraph 2, following "married five years later in August 1961", through that paragraph and the next two --o'erspanning the point where his later discussion of NAMBLA has been inserted and reverted in #Edit War; and all devoted to his sexual orientation, and his relationships down to the present day-- to the middle of the next paragraph where we are back to "dropping out of the City College of New York after one semester."
When did he attend CCNY for a single semester? Fall 1960 may be the term following his high school graduation.
"Upon the death of Delany's father from lung cancer in October and his marriage in August" [1961, we say above]. --nothing can happen "upon" two events that are ten months apart.
To depart from a chronological account is perilous. -- P64 ( talk) 00:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
[ref name=agapakis> Marina Agapakis (November 1, 2005). "Delany comments on gay life, AIDS". The Dartmouth. Archived from the original on 2006-11-20. Retrieved 2007-02-12. Covering that week's address by Delany to a Dartmouth audience, "Queer Thoughts and the Politics of Sex".</ref>
That category was for some reason marked red when I removed it so I thought it was a nonexistant category and wasn't aiming at vandalism. Anyway, why sholdn't Hogg be listed among his most notable works? 109.186.234.86 ( talk) 18:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Well, I've read this novel and highly appreciated it so I thought I could spread the word to others by inserting it into the notable works category... Reading the Wikipedia article dealing with it, it does seem to have gathered a lot of critical praise. Do with it whatever you wish. I hope you understand that I wasn't under any circumstance attempting to vandalize the article by removing that category. It was a pure mistake. 109.186.234.86 ( talk) 18:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
I keep trying to add Delany's retirement at the end of the 2015 academic year and it continues to be reverted for reasons mysterious to me, but I may be violating a Wikipedia code/guideline/rule that I'm not familiar with. Nonetheless, it is a fact that Delany retired at the end of this academic year from Temple, and he had not been coordinator of the graduate writing program for at least a year, so the implication that he still teaches at Temple and that he has been chair/coordinator for that entire time is inaccurate. I don't care enough to keep revising and undoing my attempt to make the entry more accurate, but thought it was worth noting here in case someone else has a better approach and can have more success. Metalepsis ( talk) 14:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)Metalepsis
Could someone fix the citation for Balled of Beta-2. It was a Nebula Award nominee in 1965 in the novella category, the first year the Nebulas were given out. I messed up the citation in the edits. If someone could fix it I would appreciate it. It's cited among the nominees in the first Nebula Awards volume. (SRD.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.81.184 ( talk) 21:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
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I notice his support for NAMBLA has been scrubbed. I think that warrants a POV tag warning. What do others think? Edgespath24 ( talk) 05:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
come on, NAMBLA itself cites him on their own website as a supporter of their bulletin in the 1990s how hard is it to keep a literal fact where it belongs Wikidude10000 ( talk) 04:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the 2009 book Conversations with Samuel R. Delany (editor Carl Freedman, publisher University Press of Mississippi) includes a 2004 interview with Delany in which he briefly mentions his support for NAMBLA (the relevant passage is on page 143):
It may seem paradoxical from my statement that generally speaking I think sexual relations between children and adults are likely to go wrong and that most of them are likely to be, start off as, or quickly become, abusive, that I also support a group like NAMBLA—which I do. But that’s because I feel one of the largest factors in the abuse is fostered by the secrecy itself and lack of social policing of the relationships.
However, as this is simply a mention in passing, and the interview itself doesn't appear to have prompted much discussion, I'm not sure there's any way for this information to be added to the article without running afoul of original research guidelines. DorVS ( talk) 13:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
We currently have "Their marriage (which alternatively encompassed periods of cohabitation and separation, experiments in
polyamory, and extramarital affairs with men and women conducted by both parties) ...".
I am a straight, married, monogamous (without exception since marriage), heterosexual, and if that's still too vague for you (bcz I don't mind you considering it your business, if that's your kink or professional role) devoid of each of post-adolescent, and penetrative, homosexual experience. (So to speak, a straight supporter of gay liberation and of inter-orientation sociality and alliance.) Not that you should care, but of course
YMMV.
My concern is with, I think, the overly clinical and/or legalistic wording that for me (at least) suggests an excess of moralism toward, or an intolerant clinicalization of, an often under-empowered and isolated human category. (I don't deny that "minority" is ever a valid analytical concept; it is an overused and thereby an abusively wielded one. If you regard it as an importantly relevant one here, please say so, and explain.)
First, perhaps "party" is a clear-cut term in law (for those constituting a group without relevantly conflicting interests in the legal action at hand). If there was a relevant legal dispute at hand, it should have been identified; if not, something along the lines of "each" or "between them" is obligatory, bcz calling the couple "parties" is dehumanizing, and insinuates misconduct by one or both. The insinuator should be at least anonymously admonished by admins, on behalf of the community of editors, whether or not we undertake identifying, or perhaps even publicly naming, them. I probably need say no more, tho I shall reword, at least to the extent I have just advocated.
--
JerzyA (
talk) 07:40, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
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Should the name of this article be "Samuel R. Delany" instead of "Samuel Delany"? That is how the author is named on all his published work.
Could someone also add a pronounciation guide as well? It would be a great help to non-native english speakers as myself, espescially since his name keeps being misspellled. I have no idea if it's Delaney or Delany or some other way entirely. Axel Löfving ( talk) 16:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I removed the phrase "though this is a sobriquet and not part of his actual name" from the first sentence of the body of the article; the article reads more smoothly without it. I'll add an IPA pronunciation of the name per Axel Löfving's request. Skald the Rhymer ( talk) 17:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone else think the phrase "extreme aspects of human sexuality" is POV? --MJ
"Moot" means debatable, not irrelevant. 71.245.114.202 ( talk) 04:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)Miles Archer
To be consistent with other wiki articles about writers, should the biographical material be a section "below the line," and perhaps filled out a bit, with a more general "who is SRD?" statement "above the line?" [User:Sturgeonslawyer|Sturgeonslawyer]
I strongly disagree with this statement. It is untrue, trivial, and misleading:
"Delany vaulted onto the literary stage when he was included in Harlan Ellison's Dangerous Visions. Harlan gave a short introduction that ironically pointed out how Delany was one of the last straight science fiction authors. "
Dangerous Visions was published in 1967. Delany did not 'vault' onto any 'literary stage' at that point; he was a published science fiction author of six science fiction novels and one novella, all published by Ace. 'Literary stage' is misleading and hackneyed.
The stuff about the short introduction to him in Dangerous Visions is at best irrelevant. It's not an important milestone in his life or the science fiction field.
If I don't hear some comments for keeping it, I'd like to take it out.
ZviGilbert 20:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I fixed it and moved it under 'Other Facts' where it belongs. ZviGilbert 20:36, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Probably the Neveryon books should not be under "novels" in the bibliography - three of the four are collections of novellas and short stories. Does anyone have any strong objection to moving them? [User:Sturgeonslawyer|Sturgeonslawyer]
The pop-up text on the image has his first name misspelled "Sauel", but I don't know how to fix that. (Ironically, part of the article mentions his name being frequently misspelled!)
How to rephrase this? Given SRD's orientation, the quote "Delany was one of the last straight science fiction authors" acquires an unintentional ambiguity. Tearlach 7 July 2005 01:50 (UTC)
Samuel R. Delany is bisexual see his own words in his own writing in his memoir The Motion of Light in Water. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.163.99 ( talk) 21:43, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
What is the context of the word? What precedes and follows the word? The way I read it, it can have two (one unintentional) meaning(s). Straight as a sexual reference or straight as in straight (up), unadulterated, incontrovertible, unequivocal, science fiction writer; or in another form straight-science-fiction-writer, no waffling, no ambiguity, definitely science fiction with no leakage of other genres into his writing. The following entry of the "Genre?" section of talk is a specific example:
–––– Actually, I said that he should NOT be genrefied - i.e. it should not list him specifically as a "science fiction author". He actually hasn't written [straight science fiction] in roughly 30 years. Luminifer (talk) 01:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC) ––––
Perhaps this appearant ambiguity can be explored further so it can be stated clearly. Quisizyx ( talk) 07:12, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
They Fly At Ciron [1] is missing, but I'm only familiar with the 1996 reprint [2]. Given the disparity in page lengths (171 vs 256) I'm uncertain of differences.
Should there be a discussion of the repeated imagery woven into Delany's works? Perhaps as a part of the Themes section? Some examples would be a character missing one shoe or biting his nails. Or the name of the city in both Dhalgren and Trouble on Triton being "Bellona."
Is this worth expanding upon? -- Kdring 23:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Besides the "The Dartmouth" cite, Google returns over 100,000 hits for "samuel chip delany", most of which refer to the subject of this article. I'd move it back to the lead, but there was at least a little resistance to that. -- SatyrTN ( talk | contribs) 02:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the "more sources" template from the article because I don't see anything that particularly needs a citation. If there are facts that you think ought to be referenced, please indicate them within the body of the text so I can supply a reference for them. Jd4v15 06:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I was startled to find (on a search on 28 aug 07) that Amazon lists just ONE title by Delaney, and B&N.com only ONE (a different one). None of the novels or critical works cited are listed for current purchase. Can it be true that all of this author's works are so out of print as not to merit listing? Or is something more nefarious going on?
Shouldn't information about his work come before his biography? The main reason we are interested is his stories. Life.temp ( talk) 23:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
However it is ordered, shouldn't it be Life and Works rather than Biography/Themes? The word 'Themes' in particular seems to make too little of Delany as a writer. His work is so much more than a collection of thematic preoccupations.
While I share the dislike of criticism that makes the work secondary to the life, the following points could be made: 1] Life seems to precede Works in major author articles on Wikipedia. (though I'm sure there are exceptions) 2] Delany has (at times) made books out of his own life, both in writing memoirs and in explicitly introducing topics related to his times and experiences into his fiction. 3] Perhaps the introduction paragraph should emphasise his work in order to solve the problem identified by Life.temp? I'm not a regular editor at all, so please forgive me if these points aren't helpful. Millichip ( talk) 12:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
"also published as the substantially different, more definitive[4] Out of the Dead City" To my mind, if a book is published under a different title and substantially different content, it is a different book. So 'also published as' is not quite right. Also, the reference cited isn't much use - is Delany saying that Out of the Dead City is more 'definitive' a telling of the same story? As Out of the Dead City is a rewritten version pub.1968, the edition cited must be after this time. Should we just have an entry in 1968 for Out of the Dead City, perhaps with explanatory text? Clearly this needs to be in the bibliography, along with Delany's reasoning (if that is what is referred to by the citation). I just don't think we are doing it correctly at the moment. Millichip ( talk) 08:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
So a citation is needed on something that was added a few days ago. The request for a citation was made on the third of July, and the item was removed before the next business day? Why not give someone a chance to actually cite something?
Furthermore, did anyone notice that the IP address that was used to make the addition was from Boston University? Since that archival center is IN Boston University, it makes sense that someone there would know better than most.
Finally, just a bit of Google research turned up a page on the Archival Center site (part of the BU main site) that lists "Twentieth and Twenty-First Century individuals collected by the Center." Yes, on that list is one "Samuel R. Delany." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdring ( talk • contribs) 22:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, this quick removal intrigued me, too. A little further into the library site, there is a page suggesting that the Delany holdings are being updated. I've just sent a request to the librarian to explain what this means. [3] Millichip ( talk) 10:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I see this has been reinserted already, but here is what the library told me via email: "Yes, Samuel Delany's papers are housed at the Howard Gotlieb Archival Research Center at Boston University. The page with the collection's scope and his biography is currently being updated." Millichip ( talk) 15:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I think that the bibliography might want to be its own page by now - it's pretty big, and there's a lot of textual stuff that can be added on the nature/history of various reprints... Anyone agree? Luminifer ( talk) 22:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Is that link really necessary? I know there's a video (one of eight) about Delany, but the site is about Fred Barney Taylor, not Delany, and I'm not sure it's all that important. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 19:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't know a great deal about WP conventions (or about Delany), so forgive me if this is gormless. I found the link quite an interesting insight into Delany's life at the beginning of his career. I guess the part of WP:NOT invoked is "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files", that is to say, the only reason the link can take up space on the crowded page is if it contributes to the understanding of the subject on its own terms. I must say, I think it does. I'm not sure what else 'necessary' means in this context. WP is not a paper encyclopaedia, but neither is it an indiscriminate collection of information. THe answer lies somehwere in the middle, and I would suggest keeping the link, perhaps tying it into the biographical material a little more. Millichip ( talk) 22:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The following is unsourced information:
While this is interesting, we can't use it unless you provide a source. Also, none of this is really trivia, as trivia by its definition is "unimportant information" - it therefore shouldn't be in a trivia section but instead the information should be incorporated into the main article. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 03:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit changed his identity to African American. I would have thought that the national identity in the first para would be that which he has on his passport. Of course his identity as an African American may be (and in this case, of course, is) immensely important to the subject. But presumably style would suggest a neutral, value-free approach and a simple' American', with something about his African American identity high up in the article? I haven't changed because I'm no expert on these matters in Wiki, but if no-one objects I will. Millichip ( talk) 10:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The fact that people seem to committed to omitting the fact that he's African-American is very telling. It's important enough to people to point out that the first sentence in the lede usually refers to nationality, which is an excellent way to safeguard unexamined racist ideology and camouflage it behind rules. But the fact that nobody thinks it's significant at all to point out his groundbreaking status as specifically African-American writer any where in the article speaks volumes about science fiction fans and Wikipedia editors in general. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.105.247.189 ( talk) 16:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The initial paragraph of the article mentions that Delany is a Science Fiction author. I don't know if that's true, any more. Yes, he wrote a great deal of SF, but he is also a critic and has written quite a lot of non-SF fiction. Should he just be an "American writer"? Kdring ( talk) 17:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Chip did not stop being a science fiction writer and science fiction critic when he started getting university teaching gigs. He remains, for example, a contributing editor to The New York Review of Science Fiction. He has not in any way tried to distance himself from science fiction although he has actively engaged himself in a number of other communities. -- Pleasantville ( talk) 12:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC) aka Kathryn Cramer
There's a neat little Invisible Theater[ article, which claims it to be a very recent phenomenon. I recall that Chip Delany had a troupe of folks doing this (street theater that just ppopped up) in one of his great mainstream SF novels, but which one? Thx in advance. Bellagio99 ( talk) 14:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I have had my edits undone a total of four times by different folks. Today they rolled them back twice immediately after I restored AND edited my material regarding Delany's endorsement of NAMBLA that cannot be linked to directly do to the NAMBLA URL being blacklisted by Wikipedia. I did however find an additional endorsement that is in a published interview. If I find this undone, I can only be left to suspect an intentional effort to suppress the truth of his public statements.
Here is the text in question:
On June 25th 1994, Delany endorsed "The NAMBLA Bulletin" in the following quote to "Queer Desire's Forum" in New York City:
"I read The NAMBLA Bulletin fairly regularly and I think it is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I've ever found. ... Before you start judging what NAMBLA is about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about, the issues they are really talking about; and deal with what's really there rather than this demonized notion of guys running about trying to screw little boys. I would have been so much happier as an adolescent if NAMBLA had been around when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.".
His endorsement as of this edit, is prominently posted on NAMBLA's subscription page for their periodical. A direct link for reference citation to the quoted endorsement above is blacklisted by Wikipedia and is partially included in text for this reason: nambla.org/delaney.html.In a 2004 interview about his novel Hogg he stated he supported a group like NAMBLA.[11]
To circumvent the blacklisting, I used a partial url in text. The individual STILL undid the entire section without warning. How about at least sending me a message and if I do not respond within 24 hours, feel free to edit away, but you had better be justified. The fact that Delany has endorsed NAMBLA publicly does not make it vandalism to cite it. It is relevant considering the body of all his works. Please leave my edits in place. if you do not have justification to rightly undo them as some have done.
The correctly cited and truthful statements I edited are not defamation, slander, or vandalism. They are the truth. Please note that I left out any hint of opinion and only cited quotes directly from Delaney himself, who actively supports his narrative regarding NAMBLA. MelvinPS ( talk) 00:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.90.67.179 ( talk) 22:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
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(5 bytes) in the lead sentence. --which User:Lfdder has now fixed with no other change (-5 bytes).My edit was undone three times today [2013-08-02 -p64] by three different people. No worries if the claims are legit. I will even accept the trivial claims of the first two, although very weak, but the last did not even leave a reason for edit. incidentally, as fast as I posted the revisions to comply, they were undone by different users each time. Consider that my original edit stood for months without being challenged. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck,....just sayin'....You want the truth? Well it seems some can't handle it and choose to use trivial tactics to suppress it. Stand up and debate this like an honorable person! Don't hide behind trivial issues. One of you actually informed me to hash it out here AFTER I had already made my case here. I get confused too, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and am willing to resolve this issue here and now. Relevant truth matters folks. Don't ever forget it or willfully ignore it. Stand up and be counted, but for God's sake stand up and be truthful. MelvinPS ( talk) 00:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
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--what's that about? (that has been fixed)Black Bishop
capitalized --why? (that persists)I don't see how or why Delany's POV on NAMBLA is relevant, since no secondary source is cited connecting either his opinion of the organization or of its cause to the body of work which makes him notable. It strikes me as sensationalizing and undue weight. I object to its inclusion until and unless it has been demonstrated here that there is a consensus for inclusion based on relevance, especially since I see that others have also repeatedly objected and removed the material. PlayCuz ( talk) 02:28, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
There's an interview with him here:
http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-conversation-with-samuel-r-delany.html
In which he explains his views on NAMBLA at some length. Certainly I think it should be included, but I don't want to jump into an edit war. Baron ridiculous ( talk) 04:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
How can an article which makes such wide mention of the author's ideas of sexuality in his writing *not* find his POV on NAMBLA as relevant?
An author's world view is fundamentally tied to their work. How they present ideas, oppose them, and even challenge their own, is permeated by that world view. Thus, what Delany thinks about the concept of adult-adolescent/adult-child sexual relations is an integral factor in his thinking while writing, and their presentation on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.52.212 ( talk) 16:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Section 1 is a disaster at from mid-paragraph 2, following "married five years later in August 1961", through that paragraph and the next two --o'erspanning the point where his later discussion of NAMBLA has been inserted and reverted in #Edit War; and all devoted to his sexual orientation, and his relationships down to the present day-- to the middle of the next paragraph where we are back to "dropping out of the City College of New York after one semester."
When did he attend CCNY for a single semester? Fall 1960 may be the term following his high school graduation.
"Upon the death of Delany's father from lung cancer in October and his marriage in August" [1961, we say above]. --nothing can happen "upon" two events that are ten months apart.
To depart from a chronological account is perilous. -- P64 ( talk) 00:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
[ref name=agapakis> Marina Agapakis (November 1, 2005). "Delany comments on gay life, AIDS". The Dartmouth. Archived from the original on 2006-11-20. Retrieved 2007-02-12. Covering that week's address by Delany to a Dartmouth audience, "Queer Thoughts and the Politics of Sex".</ref>
That category was for some reason marked red when I removed it so I thought it was a nonexistant category and wasn't aiming at vandalism. Anyway, why sholdn't Hogg be listed among his most notable works? 109.186.234.86 ( talk) 18:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Well, I've read this novel and highly appreciated it so I thought I could spread the word to others by inserting it into the notable works category... Reading the Wikipedia article dealing with it, it does seem to have gathered a lot of critical praise. Do with it whatever you wish. I hope you understand that I wasn't under any circumstance attempting to vandalize the article by removing that category. It was a pure mistake. 109.186.234.86 ( talk) 18:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
I keep trying to add Delany's retirement at the end of the 2015 academic year and it continues to be reverted for reasons mysterious to me, but I may be violating a Wikipedia code/guideline/rule that I'm not familiar with. Nonetheless, it is a fact that Delany retired at the end of this academic year from Temple, and he had not been coordinator of the graduate writing program for at least a year, so the implication that he still teaches at Temple and that he has been chair/coordinator for that entire time is inaccurate. I don't care enough to keep revising and undoing my attempt to make the entry more accurate, but thought it was worth noting here in case someone else has a better approach and can have more success. Metalepsis ( talk) 14:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)Metalepsis
Could someone fix the citation for Balled of Beta-2. It was a Nebula Award nominee in 1965 in the novella category, the first year the Nebulas were given out. I messed up the citation in the edits. If someone could fix it I would appreciate it. It's cited among the nominees in the first Nebula Awards volume. (SRD.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.81.184 ( talk) 21:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
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I notice his support for NAMBLA has been scrubbed. I think that warrants a POV tag warning. What do others think? Edgespath24 ( talk) 05:51, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
come on, NAMBLA itself cites him on their own website as a supporter of their bulletin in the 1990s how hard is it to keep a literal fact where it belongs Wikidude10000 ( talk) 04:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the 2009 book Conversations with Samuel R. Delany (editor Carl Freedman, publisher University Press of Mississippi) includes a 2004 interview with Delany in which he briefly mentions his support for NAMBLA (the relevant passage is on page 143):
It may seem paradoxical from my statement that generally speaking I think sexual relations between children and adults are likely to go wrong and that most of them are likely to be, start off as, or quickly become, abusive, that I also support a group like NAMBLA—which I do. But that’s because I feel one of the largest factors in the abuse is fostered by the secrecy itself and lack of social policing of the relationships.
However, as this is simply a mention in passing, and the interview itself doesn't appear to have prompted much discussion, I'm not sure there's any way for this information to be added to the article without running afoul of original research guidelines. DorVS ( talk) 13:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
We currently have "Their marriage (which alternatively encompassed periods of cohabitation and separation, experiments in
polyamory, and extramarital affairs with men and women conducted by both parties) ...".
I am a straight, married, monogamous (without exception since marriage), heterosexual, and if that's still too vague for you (bcz I don't mind you considering it your business, if that's your kink or professional role) devoid of each of post-adolescent, and penetrative, homosexual experience. (So to speak, a straight supporter of gay liberation and of inter-orientation sociality and alliance.) Not that you should care, but of course
YMMV.
My concern is with, I think, the overly clinical and/or legalistic wording that for me (at least) suggests an excess of moralism toward, or an intolerant clinicalization of, an often under-empowered and isolated human category. (I don't deny that "minority" is ever a valid analytical concept; it is an overused and thereby an abusively wielded one. If you regard it as an importantly relevant one here, please say so, and explain.)
First, perhaps "party" is a clear-cut term in law (for those constituting a group without relevantly conflicting interests in the legal action at hand). If there was a relevant legal dispute at hand, it should have been identified; if not, something along the lines of "each" or "between them" is obligatory, bcz calling the couple "parties" is dehumanizing, and insinuates misconduct by one or both. The insinuator should be at least anonymously admonished by admins, on behalf of the community of editors, whether or not we undertake identifying, or perhaps even publicly naming, them. I probably need say no more, tho I shall reword, at least to the extent I have just advocated.
--
JerzyA (
talk) 07:40, 19 August 2019 (UTC)