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This is not my area of expertise, but someone who's been working on this page might want to look at the article "Interfacing Samuel Hartlib" by Mark Greengrass in History Today 43:12 (1993), pp. 45-49. It's available online through chadwyck.com and other academic library e-databases. -- E. F. Winerock ( talk) 10:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Space Cadet has referenced the Gdansk vote, which says "In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdańsk) and later Danzig exclusively". The goal of the vote and WP:NCGN is to determine how best to describe historically complex places. The Silesian town was predominantly known as Brieg in English until its transfer to Poland in 1945. Considering the phrasing of the vote and that Hartlib was a German, it makes sense to me to Brieg should be listed before Brzeg. The phrasing is done so as to present the term historically relevant to the biography (Brieg) and the modern placename (Brzeg). The university was known in English as the Albertina, the Albertinus, the University of Königsberg, Königsberg University, etc. Aside from the fact that it was an academic institution and not a place, it has not been known as the "University of Królewiec". Olessi ( talk) 19:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I buy Brzeg, no problem, and I know the Albertina was not called "University of Królewiec" in English, but the Polish name is important for double naming of the University location. Space Cadet ( talk) 21:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The connection with Samuel Pepys may be questionable. Pepys certainly knew Samuel Hartlib junior, the son. Charles Matthews ( talk) 15:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
...they both had to take refuge from the Thirty Years War when Elbing was taken by Catholic forces...
However, according to warbox of Thirty Years War, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth wasn't a belligerent in the war. Moreover, the Commonwealth was predominantly Catholic itself, which "Catholic forces" are mentioned here?
Top.Squark ( talk) 10:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh, it's complicated. There was the separate Polish–Swedish War (1626–1629). This left Sweden holding Elbing when a truce was concluded (allowing Sweden to enter the Thirty Years' War). There are reports from Thomas Roe, there on the ground to carry out the diplomacy, describing the Danzig area as a devasted war zone (by 1629). So the article needs to be changed, still, but there was fighting enough in Royal Prussia to explain why Hartlib was keen to leave. Charles Matthews ( talk) 21:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
(I've now read the other note above re the Polish–Swedish War.) I think the original source here is what Hugh Trevor-Roper says [1] about the "Jesuit reconquest" squeezing Dury out of Elbing. Well, Trevor-Roper may be wrong on that detail, even though that's a famous paper. Interesting! Charles Matthews ( talk) 21:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
It does need to be changed. They each had reasons for leaving what was a war zone, but in neither case was it what Trevor-Roper implies, a change of religious dominance in Elbing. I have found a few citations. Charles Matthews ( talk) 13:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I've now changed this point, and added a couple of references. Charles Matthews ( talk) 17:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The unsoured
change has been made recently regarding the origin of the subject. RS say - Samuel Hartlib (c.1599-1670) was born in Elbing in Prussia c.1600 the son of George Hartlib, a Pole, and Elizabeth Langthon. His maternal grandfather John Langthon was a wealthy English merchant
👉
[2] Where the German origin came from? -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 00:56, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
*(I properly sourced that with this edit -->
[3]) -
GizzyCatBella
🍁
01:11, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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This is not my area of expertise, but someone who's been working on this page might want to look at the article "Interfacing Samuel Hartlib" by Mark Greengrass in History Today 43:12 (1993), pp. 45-49. It's available online through chadwyck.com and other academic library e-databases. -- E. F. Winerock ( talk) 10:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Space Cadet has referenced the Gdansk vote, which says "In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdańsk) and later Danzig exclusively". The goal of the vote and WP:NCGN is to determine how best to describe historically complex places. The Silesian town was predominantly known as Brieg in English until its transfer to Poland in 1945. Considering the phrasing of the vote and that Hartlib was a German, it makes sense to me to Brieg should be listed before Brzeg. The phrasing is done so as to present the term historically relevant to the biography (Brieg) and the modern placename (Brzeg). The university was known in English as the Albertina, the Albertinus, the University of Königsberg, Königsberg University, etc. Aside from the fact that it was an academic institution and not a place, it has not been known as the "University of Królewiec". Olessi ( talk) 19:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I buy Brzeg, no problem, and I know the Albertina was not called "University of Królewiec" in English, but the Polish name is important for double naming of the University location. Space Cadet ( talk) 21:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The connection with Samuel Pepys may be questionable. Pepys certainly knew Samuel Hartlib junior, the son. Charles Matthews ( talk) 15:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
...they both had to take refuge from the Thirty Years War when Elbing was taken by Catholic forces...
However, according to warbox of Thirty Years War, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth wasn't a belligerent in the war. Moreover, the Commonwealth was predominantly Catholic itself, which "Catholic forces" are mentioned here?
Top.Squark ( talk) 10:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh, it's complicated. There was the separate Polish–Swedish War (1626–1629). This left Sweden holding Elbing when a truce was concluded (allowing Sweden to enter the Thirty Years' War). There are reports from Thomas Roe, there on the ground to carry out the diplomacy, describing the Danzig area as a devasted war zone (by 1629). So the article needs to be changed, still, but there was fighting enough in Royal Prussia to explain why Hartlib was keen to leave. Charles Matthews ( talk) 21:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
(I've now read the other note above re the Polish–Swedish War.) I think the original source here is what Hugh Trevor-Roper says [1] about the "Jesuit reconquest" squeezing Dury out of Elbing. Well, Trevor-Roper may be wrong on that detail, even though that's a famous paper. Interesting! Charles Matthews ( talk) 21:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
It does need to be changed. They each had reasons for leaving what was a war zone, but in neither case was it what Trevor-Roper implies, a change of religious dominance in Elbing. I have found a few citations. Charles Matthews ( talk) 13:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I've now changed this point, and added a couple of references. Charles Matthews ( talk) 17:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The unsoured
change has been made recently regarding the origin of the subject. RS say - Samuel Hartlib (c.1599-1670) was born in Elbing in Prussia c.1600 the son of George Hartlib, a Pole, and Elizabeth Langthon. His maternal grandfather John Langthon was a wealthy English merchant
👉
[2] Where the German origin came from? -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 00:56, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
*(I properly sourced that with this edit -->
[3]) -
GizzyCatBella
🍁
01:11, 1 November 2022 (UTC)