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In the external links section, there's a link to vipassana.com, a school offering classes in Vipassana meditation, not Samatha. That link should be removed. JasonAdama ( talk) 07:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
re: * A Honed and Heavy Axe
The removal of this link without consensus was certainly an oversight. As far as I can tell, this comes in under WP:ELYES point 3, and the condition of reasoned and reasonable dissent has not been met. I agree that a copy of the work should be located from a better mediating website, but the work in and of itself is relevant to the article and appears reputable. I would suggest some editorial courtesy in the future, just a thought. -- BE TA 01:11, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
See WP:ELBURDEN regarding continuing to edit-war over the links while they under dispute. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
What would be the criterion of a ‘recognized authority’, academic credentials? Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu is ‘recognized’ and has written on this topic (samatha ca vipassanā) in A Tool Among Many, which would be as concise reading as Ajahn Chandako’s article. There is also Bhante Gunaratana ‘recognized’ as such, and has discussed the topic in a larger work (Mindfulness in Plain English) [1], although this is not as concise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.108.1.54 ( talk) 19:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
In the wiki article, the Thai Forest Tradition is mentioned in context of samatha and vipassanā being a unified contemplative dynamic as found in the Pāḷi canon, citing Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu from his article A Tool Among Many. As Ajhan Chandako is also a well respected teacher in the TFT, I can find citing from his article appropriate to the Pāḷi-Dhamma section to add his perspective to this section.
Because both articles are on point with this topic perhaps this would be a suitable way of linking the articles:
A Tool Among Many by Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu A Honed and Heavy Axe by Ajahn Chandako — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.108.1.54 ( talk) 14:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure there are noted publications and noted experts that we're overlooking in this article, suitable for references or external links. Anyone want to help find them? -- Ronz ( talk) 19:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Who is disputing the link in question other than you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.184.198 ( talk) 18:26, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Posting a dismissive is not productive to a discussion. As for 'focus on content’, Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu is quoted ‘in the early suttas’ section, it would support this citing to link his article. The Ajhan Chandako article also supports the suttanta method this section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.184.198 ( talk • contribs) 15:05, 26 July 2011
The New Burmese Method (which is completely erroneously titled as it is as ancient as the hills) and the Vipassana school of U Ba Khin are two different traditions. Mahasi Sayadaw teaches a different technique to U Ba Khin. Also, it is completely untrue that either tradition teaches that samatha is 'optional'. Where's your source? I shall answer for you: There is no source for such an absurd statement. Samatha is a prerequisite for vipassana meditation (satipatthana). That is why this section has been removed. Also I have removed the statement "In Sri Lanka samatha includes all the meditations directed at static objects." because it is untrue as well as uncited. 81.106.127.14 ( talk) 22:01, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: I don't know why, neither the reason was stated in edit summaryfor revert, which is important, if it is revert. But May I know, why my edits got reverted. The template was placed in wrong place, that template is placed belowthe section heading.. Also, for see also of the page normally there is special section below the page, which already exist here also. and contains the same links. May I know, the reason of revert, Please ? JaMongKut ( talk) 02:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: Yeah that's what I was saying. JaMongKut ( talk) 04:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi, This article seems to me long-winded and hard to digest. I suggest breaking it into separate articles. One, the practice itself. Another, the history. Of course, that could be further refined into separate articles on the individual traditions, Indian, Indio-Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, etc. Also, some illustrations would be helpful, one of the Ten Bulls, the Tibetan meditation path thangka, that sort of thing. It needs to be succinct and lucid, and right now it is not, probably as a result of multiple editors all adding various topics and subtopics. But at that rate, you can write hundreds of pages on this, and still not be exhaustive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1017:B8AA:E50:D4F6:937C:71C2:FD9A ( talk) 17:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Wikiman5676: you added back diff
This method is the one most often described in the Pāli canon, as a practice where samatha and vipassana are practiced together. One who uses this method is referred to as a "tranquility worker" ( Pali: samatha yānika). Buddhist texts describe that all Buddhas and their chief disciples used this method.
It's sourced from Busweel p.889. Yet, Buswell is wrong here; this is not what the Nikaya's say, but what Buddhaghosa says. That's why I added Gunaratana. See also Richard Shankman, The experience of Samadhi, p.57, in his chapter on the Visuddhimagga. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:35, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
The most common method of meditation described in the Pali canon relies on vipassana and samatha practiced together. In this method, jhana is first induced through samatha. The meditator then exits from that state and reflects upon it with mindfulness to see that it is characterized by the three marks. In this way jhana is made the object of vipassana meditation. One who uses this method is called a tranquility worker (samatha yanika), and all buddhas and their chief disciples are described as having practiced in this way. A less com-mon method found in the canon relies on vipassana alone. Developing concentration to a lesser degree than jhana, the meditator examines ordinary mental and physical phenomena for the three marks as described above. The meditator who uses this method is called a bare insight worker (suddhavipassana yanika).
I feel like this is original research that we shouldn't be doing. And just because primary texts don't clearly show this doesn't mean there isnt scholarly or tradition wide consensus that it is to be interpreted that way. But you do have a point that the lack of evidence in primary texts suggests Buswell is wrong. So yeah, I agree we should leave those out unless we find more compelling evidence across multiple reliable sources that this is the case. Wikiman5676 ( talk) 18:38, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I've taken the bold liberty to merge Vipassana into this article, since they are not two separate subjects, but a tandem. And I've moved the page to "Samatha-vipassana," to reflect this relation. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:34, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
The displayed "Translations of" box currently covers only vipassana, and not samatha. There should probably be another translations of box for samatha to avoid the lead accumulating language clutter. Either that or the existing box needs to be amended to translate the compound "samatha-vipassana", assuming it exists as a compound or phrase in the relevant languages.
@ Joshua Jonathan: Seems to be a loose end from your merge. – Scyrme ( talk) 19:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
<br />
but that might be confusing, idk. I think it would be clearer to have two boxes or revise the current box to only list compound terms where they are attested (unless the compound is only used in English sources?). –
Scyrme (
talk) 22:11, 16 January 2023 (UTC)This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
In the external links section, there's a link to vipassana.com, a school offering classes in Vipassana meditation, not Samatha. That link should be removed. JasonAdama ( talk) 07:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
re: * A Honed and Heavy Axe
The removal of this link without consensus was certainly an oversight. As far as I can tell, this comes in under WP:ELYES point 3, and the condition of reasoned and reasonable dissent has not been met. I agree that a copy of the work should be located from a better mediating website, but the work in and of itself is relevant to the article and appears reputable. I would suggest some editorial courtesy in the future, just a thought. -- BE TA 01:11, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
See WP:ELBURDEN regarding continuing to edit-war over the links while they under dispute. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
What would be the criterion of a ‘recognized authority’, academic credentials? Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu is ‘recognized’ and has written on this topic (samatha ca vipassanā) in A Tool Among Many, which would be as concise reading as Ajahn Chandako’s article. There is also Bhante Gunaratana ‘recognized’ as such, and has discussed the topic in a larger work (Mindfulness in Plain English) [1], although this is not as concise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.108.1.54 ( talk) 19:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
In the wiki article, the Thai Forest Tradition is mentioned in context of samatha and vipassanā being a unified contemplative dynamic as found in the Pāḷi canon, citing Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu from his article A Tool Among Many. As Ajhan Chandako is also a well respected teacher in the TFT, I can find citing from his article appropriate to the Pāḷi-Dhamma section to add his perspective to this section.
Because both articles are on point with this topic perhaps this would be a suitable way of linking the articles:
A Tool Among Many by Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu A Honed and Heavy Axe by Ajahn Chandako — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.108.1.54 ( talk) 14:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure there are noted publications and noted experts that we're overlooking in this article, suitable for references or external links. Anyone want to help find them? -- Ronz ( talk) 19:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Who is disputing the link in question other than you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.184.198 ( talk) 18:26, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Posting a dismissive is not productive to a discussion. As for 'focus on content’, Ṭhanassaro Bhikkhu is quoted ‘in the early suttas’ section, it would support this citing to link his article. The Ajhan Chandako article also supports the suttanta method this section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.184.198 ( talk • contribs) 15:05, 26 July 2011
The New Burmese Method (which is completely erroneously titled as it is as ancient as the hills) and the Vipassana school of U Ba Khin are two different traditions. Mahasi Sayadaw teaches a different technique to U Ba Khin. Also, it is completely untrue that either tradition teaches that samatha is 'optional'. Where's your source? I shall answer for you: There is no source for such an absurd statement. Samatha is a prerequisite for vipassana meditation (satipatthana). That is why this section has been removed. Also I have removed the statement "In Sri Lanka samatha includes all the meditations directed at static objects." because it is untrue as well as uncited. 81.106.127.14 ( talk) 22:01, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: I don't know why, neither the reason was stated in edit summaryfor revert, which is important, if it is revert. But May I know, why my edits got reverted. The template was placed in wrong place, that template is placed belowthe section heading.. Also, for see also of the page normally there is special section below the page, which already exist here also. and contains the same links. May I know, the reason of revert, Please ? JaMongKut ( talk) 02:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: Yeah that's what I was saying. JaMongKut ( talk) 04:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi, This article seems to me long-winded and hard to digest. I suggest breaking it into separate articles. One, the practice itself. Another, the history. Of course, that could be further refined into separate articles on the individual traditions, Indian, Indio-Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, etc. Also, some illustrations would be helpful, one of the Ten Bulls, the Tibetan meditation path thangka, that sort of thing. It needs to be succinct and lucid, and right now it is not, probably as a result of multiple editors all adding various topics and subtopics. But at that rate, you can write hundreds of pages on this, and still not be exhaustive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1017:B8AA:E50:D4F6:937C:71C2:FD9A ( talk) 17:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Wikiman5676: you added back diff
This method is the one most often described in the Pāli canon, as a practice where samatha and vipassana are practiced together. One who uses this method is referred to as a "tranquility worker" ( Pali: samatha yānika). Buddhist texts describe that all Buddhas and their chief disciples used this method.
It's sourced from Busweel p.889. Yet, Buswell is wrong here; this is not what the Nikaya's say, but what Buddhaghosa says. That's why I added Gunaratana. See also Richard Shankman, The experience of Samadhi, p.57, in his chapter on the Visuddhimagga. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:35, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
The most common method of meditation described in the Pali canon relies on vipassana and samatha practiced together. In this method, jhana is first induced through samatha. The meditator then exits from that state and reflects upon it with mindfulness to see that it is characterized by the three marks. In this way jhana is made the object of vipassana meditation. One who uses this method is called a tranquility worker (samatha yanika), and all buddhas and their chief disciples are described as having practiced in this way. A less com-mon method found in the canon relies on vipassana alone. Developing concentration to a lesser degree than jhana, the meditator examines ordinary mental and physical phenomena for the three marks as described above. The meditator who uses this method is called a bare insight worker (suddhavipassana yanika).
I feel like this is original research that we shouldn't be doing. And just because primary texts don't clearly show this doesn't mean there isnt scholarly or tradition wide consensus that it is to be interpreted that way. But you do have a point that the lack of evidence in primary texts suggests Buswell is wrong. So yeah, I agree we should leave those out unless we find more compelling evidence across multiple reliable sources that this is the case. Wikiman5676 ( talk) 18:38, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I've taken the bold liberty to merge Vipassana into this article, since they are not two separate subjects, but a tandem. And I've moved the page to "Samatha-vipassana," to reflect this relation. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:34, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
The displayed "Translations of" box currently covers only vipassana, and not samatha. There should probably be another translations of box for samatha to avoid the lead accumulating language clutter. Either that or the existing box needs to be amended to translate the compound "samatha-vipassana", assuming it exists as a compound or phrase in the relevant languages.
@ Joshua Jonathan: Seems to be a loose end from your merge. – Scyrme ( talk) 19:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
<br />
but that might be confusing, idk. I think it would be clearer to have two boxes or revise the current box to only list compound terms where they are attested (unless the compound is only used in English sources?). –
Scyrme (
talk) 22:11, 16 January 2023 (UTC)