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VM Samael founded various organisations. And these organisations split etc. etc. This has been discussed too many times. Also, it seems as if the various organisations are adding themselves and deleting others on the page etc. etc. Instead I propose that, in fairness, we have all or nothing. So I have removed the line "He founded the non-profit corporation, Gnostic Institute of Anthropology, Inc."
Please rather than everyone just changing this backwards and forwards could we at least post some discussion and sort it out properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.222.159.54 ( talk • contribs)
OK. sorry about that... You are right. Sorry I did not discuss first, it was discussed in older versions of this page where every day the list of links would change as each of the movements squabbled. Earlier I tried to add 'The Gnostic Movement' and 'POSCLA' as these were actually founded by Samael Aun Weor to this page and they were removed. I did not realise that they would need citations...
Either way, the statement is incorrect as Samael did not found the GIA. It was created after he died as a certain offshoot of his movement. Even the GIA UK site states "Together with his wife Litelantes, he founded the International Gnostic Movement in the 1950's". So this should be corrected. -B.Jensen (IP address is an internet cafe)
To help remedy this I propose to add this site www.sos-gnosis.org. A site dedicated to help the survivors of the Latin-American gnosis. It is well researched, and published by former members of the Latin-American Gnostics, they even have the origin of rituals and explanation of them. Before anyone raises any objection I like to use a precedent in WP. In the Scientology article in the external links section there are sites of detractors of the Church of Scientology. The article of SAW should have the same.
Also I will research further and add a section to this article regarding the anti-gay, misogynic and intolerant views of SAW.
Why would someone who knows little about the subject "research further": leave it to people who are familiar. SAW's attitudes regarding homosexuality are written quite clearly in the body. Comparing Crowley and LaVey to SAW is absurd, articles only need to state the facts, they are not essays where you need to present "a balanced argument". Crowley had his followers cut their bodies with razors, etc; as far as I am aware SAW did nothing of this sort, that is why this article will not be "balanced" in the way that one on Crowley inevitably would be.
A point about reliable third party info. It seems Samael mentions them in his own work e. g. Blavatzky, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Krumm Heller et al(capone). Wouldn't it be unfair to judge this article from a purely scientific point of view e. g. trying to prove the existence of solar bodies not in the realm of Physicas by physical means. After all, at the miracle of Lourdes when the people saw the sun rock'n roll (around the clock tonight), no Physicist noticed any change in its path across the sky; not even Dr. Teller who was able to detect a slight needle motion in the meter when the first Hydrogen explosion ocurred at the Bikini archipielago was able to notice anything. Another thing, the apparent bias of the article may stem from the partly occult nature of the subject due to the terrible persecution the Gnostics have suffered from the first centuries of Christianity which forced them to go and remain underground. The article on Opus Dei has a similar label appended to it. Now, shouldn't they be judged on their own merits and then bring up the opposite view or views and so arrive at a really neutral Wikipidean view with an article really worthy of Wikipedia and what it represents rather than just bark at the wrong tree all day long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDPhD ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Insert non-formatted text here
I dont know if the book list is complete but if not could somebody kindly create a complete listing of his books. Thanks
Bill (Feb 8, 2007)( talk) 20:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC).
Was Samael really born on March 16? Some texts mention it was born on March 3, and some other on March 6.
TRUELLY SAMAEL AUN WEOR WAS BORN ON MARCH 6th. ANY OTHER DATE IS FALSE. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.70.122.124 (
talk)
13:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
yeah, March 6 was the birthday for sure —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.217.85 ( talk) 21:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia have a policy on the order of external links? I think that the most relevant to be first would be www.gnosticteachings.org since it has by far the most material related to Samael Aun Weor and his teachings, or maybe Ageac or GIA. Gnosticweb, which is first at the moment, isn't as much related to Samael Aun Weor as it is to Mark Pritchard. I wanted to discuss this here first instead of just changing it to my own preferences, so what are your opinions? -- Anton H 19:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Removed the "History" section lacking in sources and potentially being ill-intended:
Arnold Krumm-Heller traveled in occult circles around the start of the 20th century where he studied with notable figures such as Gérard Encausse of the Martinist Order and Franz Hartmann of the 'Ordo Templaris Orientis'. In 1910 he founded the Iglesia Gnostica (Gnostic Church) in Mexico. Not finding as much success as he hoped for, he moved through Latin America before settling in Brazil. There he founded the Fraternidad de Rosacruz Antiqua (Fraternity of the Ancient Rosicrucians), following Randolph's usage. Krumm-Heller moved back to Germany in 1920, where he made contact with Aleister Crowley. Krumm-Heller kept a low profile through World War II, but when he was able to travel again after the war, he resumed contact with his Latin America students. Between that time and his death in 1949, Krumm-Heller encountered and subsequently mentored Victor Rodriguez who would subsequently take the name Samael Aun Weor. [1] Weor states that Krumm-Heller taught a form of Sexual Magic without ejaculation that would become the core of his own teachings. citation needed
As you can see it claims that SAW stated the he was taught sexual magic by A. Krumm-Heller which as far as I know is far from the truth and as you can see it cites no sources to support this claim, therefore I removed this section-paragraph as being potentially ill-intended and lacking in sources. Arthur Clark 14:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
References
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I removed most of the recent edits by 201.21.144.223 because of the following:
1. That the orgasm should not be reached during sexual intercourse is well explained in context in the text and I see no reason to state it again in the beginning of the section.
2. I don't think it's relevant or even necessarily true to state that nothing about what he teaches about sex could be scientifically proved. As far as I know there have been no scientific studies on the existence of solar bodies or the transmutation of sexual energy etc. I know some research on intercourse without orgasm that supports the teachings of Samael Aun Weor, but if you really think that it should be stated that it's not proved then please say it more specifically and provide sources.
3. That there is no proof that " 'The Doctrine of the Many' has been taught in the esoteric schools and religions since the beginning of time" seems highly irrelevant and out of place since what is described is esoteric and hidden knowledge.
If you disagree then I will be happy to discuss. Anton H 09:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems the question of plagiarism should also be removed e. g. if there is no actual corroborated court case. It is mere heresay if for example the Gurdjieff Foundation never went to the courts or brought forth a formal accusation. It's mere conjecture and should be removed as heresay with no factual reference whatsoever. JDPhD ( talk) 20:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Could someone provide a link on where to get Sameal Aun Weor herbal remedies? (I'm very sick)
Bill
Apr. 22, 2007
Okay thank you Anton. I really appreciate it! Ive been to the doctor but they offer me very little solution. I would like to try alternative approaches to healing.
(Unfortunatly I dont have a link page.)
Bill 25 April, 2007
Just to let the editors of this article know that I've added some cleanup tags. I can see that a lot of the content of the article is from primary sources written by Samael Aun Weor himself. Please try to find some other reliable sources. Also, as a result of this primary source editing, there is a lot of quotes on the text. Please try to rewrite their content outside the quote. Also i was tempted to put an "unencyclopedical" tag on this article. The article is about the character in question, but much of its content is an explanation of his philosophy. Please clean it up. BTW, most of his work is based on theosophy, so a lot of this content could be added to that article, in order to clean up this one. Thanks a lot. -- Legion fi 07:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
About a year ago I try to bring in o more balanced view of Victor Gomez. The religious zealots did not allow so. As balance go there are a lot of inconsistencies in the samaelian Gnosticism. Not to mention all the teachings that are left out (maybe on purpose?) that is not good for public relations or a recruitment paper. With quite the skill misogynic and homophobic teachings are suppress. Not to mention all the plagiarism that Victor Gomez did. For closer inspections many of Victor Gomez works are translations or plagiarism from Victor Krumm-Heller, Gurdjieff, Gerard Encausse, Blavasky and Crowley (the samaelian Gnostic 1st Degree or Gnostic Mass in a variation of Crowleys Liber XV)
I invite any one to read Bel’s Revolution to read how Victor Gomez relate to others and the hate he display against other occult/esoteric organizations… also Tarot and Kabbalah for the way he expresses his opinion on woman… and finally Elementary Treatise on Magic on what he considers those who do not follow its doctrine… food for though.
Further for try www.sos-gnosis.org to have a different view on Victor Gomez Gnosticism.
Latin-American Gnosticism has little to do with Gnosticism or Christian Gnosticism… its just Victor Gomez take on the occult…
Legion Fi if you are an idiot, at least you are an intelligent one. This article needs a lot of work to be encyclopedia worthy. The “unsigned” is nothing more than a religious zealot trying to sell its religion… Tanuky 21:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)tanuky October 10, 2007 Tanuky 21:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The question of plagiarism should be taken out of the article as mere heresay. If there is no formal accusation or court case then it should be taken out. Here say, it's hearsay. So is there a reference that the Gurdjieff Foundation brought charges of plagiarism against him in a court of law. Then the insinuation should be treated as such and considered unworthy of Wikipedia. The same goes for accusations of plagiarism in relation to other personalities of the occult e.g. Crowley. JDPhD ( talk) 20:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
How can I find more of his books. I'm very interested in learning more. I'm very excited.
-Bill May 30, 2007
Wow! Thank you Anton. I'm soo excited! I want to read all his books.
-Bill June 1, 2007
All original books in Spanish can be found at
http://www.gnosis2002.com/tabla.htm for free download.
119.160.141.222 (
talk)
10:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)Rodrigo
Nov, 22nd 2009
I disagree to the Anael website because it is not about the subject of the article and the material there is not his original teachings but the modified ones by Rabolu. The Thelema Press website has a lot more information which covers that on the Anael website. I also disagree to any link to a website that is mainly about an organization, such as AGEAC and GIA, because if we have one we should have all, and that would be too many. Please see WP:EL. Why do you think "educator" and "author" are more correct than "teacher" and "writer", respectively? Perhaps I can agree with author, but educator seems to be more rarely used than teacher, while having practically the same meaning. Thank you, Anton H 20:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
This website support my claim
http://www.ageacac.net/secciones/ageacac/index.php
http://www.google.com/translate_t
Use Google Translate, the translation is so so, but the point comes across. Helios solaris 23:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
We need to come to an agreement on which external links should be included in the article. There is no need for a great many, and I don't think that links to websites about a specific organization should be included, because there are many of those. What do you think? Make sure that you are familiar with the external links guideline before stating your opinion. Thank you. Anton H 21:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Many of the recent additions made to the article have been unreferenced, original research and POV. Please read the policies listed on the top of this talk page before making any more edits. Thank you. Anton H 21:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Check http://www.gnosticbooks.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=2&Itemid=5 at the end of the text.
There is a difference in opinions whether the article should include information and history about different schools, organizations and associations. Perhaps a distinction between official schools that are under the authority of Osiris Gomez Garro, the son of Samael Aun Weor and Litelantes. State below if you agree, disagree or are undecided. Afterwards, if you want, add arguments for your position. Thank you.
Aside from agreeing, disagreeing or being undecided, it looks like if this article is about Samael Aun Weor and he estblished an organization then it should be accepted as such on its own merits if well referenced not merely by hearsay. Also if there are opposing or dissenting organizations and they are well referenced they should also be presented. Only in this way will the article create a spirit of Wikipedean neutrality. JDPhD ( talk) 20:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
How do you suggest that we create a history section that is well-referenced with reliable sources and NPOV? It seems to me to be impossible because of the lack of reliable sources and the controversy surrounding this area. Each source will say a different thing. One says that Litelantes was appointed the legitimate successor by Samael Aun Weor, another says that Joaquín Amortegui (Rabolu) was, and so on. The issue is difficult because if we add a statement that is disputed by others without allowing room for the other versions, it will be POV. And if we talk about the other versions that are out there it will become a mess. Maybe we should mention that since his death there have been several divisions within the Gnostic Movement and different persons claim to be his legitimate successor? I believe that would be NPOV, but the question is whether it should be in the article. What do the rest of you think? Anton H 15:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
There should be a separate article within wikipedia which gives reference to all official & unofficial schools. Arthur Clark 13:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I am moving a part of the text that JDPhD added here because it seems to be original research. The following part explaining about fallen bodhisattvas will be superfluous if the first part wasn't there, so I'm moving that too. If a reference is provided I will move it back again.
Anton H ( talk) 23:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Most of the article seems to be written with a bit of an appreciative / adulatory tone. And there are clearly some POV in the text, take a look at this:
Weor, without any lucrative ends, possesses activities for the International Gnostic Movement that promote and objectify to fight for the regeneration of the human being, raising its spiritual, moral, physical and intellectual level.
Needs cleaning up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.130.216 ( talk) 18:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree 100%. This article is going down the tubes fast. It needs a swift and strict cleaning. -- T. Baphomet ( talk) 00:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the article is too verbose, or wordy. It really detracts from the article. I am going to work to make it more concise. -- T. Baphomet ( talk) 00:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
An encyclopedia article should not read like a novel. This article uses too many loquacious adjectives and adverbs. It should be much more 'dry' (but not too dry!). By being wordy, the validity of the article is called into question. -- T. Baphomet ( talk) 01:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
In trying to edit objectively, one should watch one's own subjectivity. If the link appears first in an article, it adds to the value of the encyclopedia to keep it rather than remove it. If it is used a second time, then it is politically correct to remove it without much ado. Try some dry vermouth! Ain't that what you saying? A truly Wikipedean article is neutral so it does not add to or take away from an article if used as a link the first time it appears and no more. Rather it adds to the value of the encyclopedia and makes use of one of the greatest information weapons ever designed by man THE CYBERLINK. JDPhD ( talk) 21:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't look like the statement "proliferated throughout the world" can be supported by ref(1) which is just the websight of Gnostic Institute of Anthropology UK. If there is another reference that is more encompassing it should be used. Otherwise, it should be dropped. JDPhD ( talk) 21:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
There is not even one note that a reader can refer to a specific page of the work cited e. g. Note (32) ..."all sexual desire is held as degenerate" (WOW!) then mention is made of a book published by Glorian but no exact page indicated where it may be corroborated that "all sexual desire is held as degenerate". Please, if you can't be truthful, at least be specific. Thank you. JDPhD ( talk) 21:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I've just read the chapter in The Perfect Marriage titled The Work with the Demon and there's not the slightest hint there that "all sex is degenerate" as note (51) presumably indicates. This chapter is mainly about the dissolution of the ego. There're some points about sex but none goes so far as to state that all sex is degenerate as note (51) seems to indicate. The on-line version of the Perfect Marriage that I consulted is at the following link: [1] JDPhD ( talk) 22:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Will someone please fix the notes from 26 on; they've gone awry. JDPhD ( talk) 21:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Will someone please give me a hand with this note #51, I've not seen the Glorian Perfect Marriage of more than 250 pages. I've seen the original Spanish and it has about 179 pages. I've also seen two English versions that have one 189 pages and the other one about 215 pages. The section where the note appears it mentions a passage from the Gospel according to St. Luke but I've tried to locate this passage in the Perfect Matrimony and I've not been able to. There are some passages from the Gospel according to St. Mark but that's about it. Anyway, this passage in St. Luke 21: 19 is in the context of Jesus and his followers and the end of times. Nothing about soulless anything. JDPhD ( talk) 20:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Good job! May I suggest then that the statement that appears on the page be removed. It states: "Samael Aun Weor states that according to Jesus in the New Testament, the ordinary person does not actually possess a soul". The whole idea behind my introducing the statements from the Holy Bible and Buddhism was simply to bring up the point that the doctrine of no-soul is not Christian but Buddhist. The statement "...according to Jesus in the New Testament" clearly means Christianity. JDPhD ( talk) 19:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, first of all I have to state that I have been following Helios edits closely. And I haven't reversed them because I felt I didn't have any arguments against them. And I still don't. But his clearance of the NPOV tag was the drop that spilled the glass. Im sorry. But all of the "Doctrine of Synthesis" section references come from primary sources from Samael Aun Weor himself. This clearly violates WP:PSTS. I beg someone with enought knowledge and/or time to dig into this articles problems besides Helios Solaris. Thanks. -- Legion fi ( talk) 05:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
* only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and * make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source."
Frankly I don't see the point of all these new references that are being added to the text. More is not necessarily better in this case. References should provide support for statements made in the article, not additional information on a subject. Quoted from Wikipedia:Verifiability:
For example, the very first source listed: G. R. S. Mead, M. A. Fragments of a Faith Forgotten: the Gnostics, a contribution to the origins of Christianity. I have not read this book, but I'm sure that it does not say anything about the International Gnostic Movement formed by Samael Aun Weor, since it was written before his time. It seems the Notes section needs a good clean-up. Anton H ( talk) 16:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I have removed from the section "Doctrine of Synthesis" the following text as sourced with inadequate references:
Neither [[Eliphas Levi]] nor [[Madame Blavatsky|H. P. Blavatsky]], [[Gurdjieff]], [[P. D. Ouspensky]], [[Rudolf Steiner|Steiner]], [[H. Spencer Lewis]], [[R. Swinburne Clymer]], [[Manly Palmer Hall]], [[Max Heindel]] or any other prominent exponent of [[esoteric]] lore<ref>[[Dion Fortune]] ''Esoteric Orders And Their Work'', Red Wheel/Weiser, 2007 ISBN 978-1578631841; Rider & Co., 1st ed. 1928 </ref> ever revealed publicly the Secret of the Great Arcanum: only Samael Aun Weor has. <ref>Eliphas Levi ''Transcendental Magic'', p. 94, Weiser, 1995 ISBN 0-87728-079-7</ref>
__ meco ( talk) 14:48, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
"...the fact that more people are being born as homosexuals..." from the Homosexuality section isn't, in fact, a fact at all. If it is, it needs a reference since it's not referenced as a quote from Aun Weor's teachings.
Presently the article has "Aun Weor" as sort key for its categories. Is this correct? __ meco ( talk) 08:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
While your intention to contribute to this article is appreciated, there are certain rules and guidelines on Wikipedia that need to be followed. Your edits lacked an encyclopedic tone which is preferred on Wikipedia. Moreover, the added texts seem to be negatively biased by what appears to be your own opinions and experiences with the subject of the article, this is in conflict with the policies of Neutral Point of View as well as Original Research. The statements made need proper references as Wikipedia is not a place to state your own opinion but, as far as possible, to reflect statements already made in the published literature. I'm sorry having to remove all of that text which I'm sure took some time to write. Please read through the mentioned guidelines and make sure that your future edits are in accordance with these. Thank you. Anton H ( talk) 16:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Since the discovery of the gnostic texts and much exploration and research as to the authenticity of these topics, we might also as students and scholars of all ancient texts, recognize that there will certainly be a wave of interest that will result in one of two outcomes. Since Gnosticism is a form of knowledge that is pure and absent from any attachments to conventional religion, the most effectual influence it may have is on students seeking a pure doctrine of Christ. This is a positive outcome for the discovery of the Gnostic texts, as the original message teaches that each and every one must come to 'gnosis' by seeking knowledge on a single and solitary path. The other effect it may have, is as in the days of Roman rule, is to create a variety of 'sects' or 'cults' which are fallibly based on the underdeveloped intellect of the 'worldly' as the Savior describes it in some of the readings. These sects and cults although very knowledgeable about the 'techniques' of occult and hermetic (black magic) arts may superimpose their interests and ideas as 'gnosis' although they may be far from a true and mystic gnosis. This negative coloring thus would be expanded to serve a selfish interest and promote the 'worldly', that which the Savior states he hated about those who revel in darkness. It is important to understand that now in our modern times, as Gnostic scriptures are once again being revealed, that we guard carefully against this sort of mingling the sciences and arts with concepts of knowledge that were meant to enliven or illuminate, not to darken or decieve. The capacity of cults and sects in our age is just as potentially proliferant as it was in the times of the early Christians, and has happened again in the growth of a gnostic movement that is not truly gnostic in origin. To avoid occult contamination of the mind with what is not the true Gnostic teachings, one must first search for the authenticity of the real documents, read the real documents as found in thier original state and read them as they were written from direct literal translations in the original language. Each seeker must have a chance to examine the real historical documents and references so that he/she would know what the real teachings are. Certain prolific authors who may or may not have good intentions, may have rewritten their 'idea' of what the gnostic teachings said without giving any reference to the original documents. In some extreme cases, they may have proselytized their 'own' version of gnosticism by not considering whether their quotations and discourse about the original texts differs in 'meaning' from the original text. Meditating on what was said in the gnostic scriptures and then writing about one's meditations is truly different from the actual reading and contemplation of the gnostic scriptures and actually teaching it verbatim. To do the former, is an outrage to all seekers who are seeking their own path indiscriminately from the polluted viewpoints of others. To do the latter is to receive the message as written by the historical recorder in its true form. To read the original writings and to evaluate them for what they truly say in the original language and regard them as similar or dissimilar to one's own is to be truthful to oneself. Each seeker of truth must examine oneself prior to applying these gospels or any other ancient writing. A benevolent seeker of truth may be more interested in his or her salvation rather than trying to sway or influence others towards a particular idea or application of doctrine. Remember each must follow his own path. That is the true gist of Gnosticism. Currently I am aware of only a handful of gnostic thinkers that serve a group. In any event, I am sure none of these would be interested in leading a group because 'leading' itself is unworthy of 'gnosis'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.88.240 ( talk) 04:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I see a 2009 discussion comment that the clean up is largely done.
But to me the very long piece still reads like a tract for Weor-ism, very unlike the typical, concise, neutral encyclopedia style of Wikipedia.
Is the section title "Master and avatar" a little promotional?
With reference to the long paragraph on "Initiations of higher mysteries," the article on Buddha headlines similar experiences with the more neutral "Enlightenment."
The text of the Buddha article runs 23 screens on my computer, the Weor article 38, suggesting to me that we're over-emphasizing the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.186.248 ( talk) 04:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I have added sections on 'The Social Christ', 'Elemental Medicine' etc and will be cleaning up some things in the article over the next few days or weeks.
I dispute T. Baphomet's comment that "The Social Christ" is not encyclopedic as it is a key aspect of the life and work of Samael Aun Weor and POSCLA was one of the key elements of his doctrine. To write an article on him without devoting fair space to this is absurd.
Furthermore "Elemental Medicine" was also a key aspect of his life and work, it is mentioned in the first part of the article that he was a wanderer living with the Indians of the Sierra Nevada and so this is evidently a crucially important aspect of his life. "The Esoteric Antithesis" was a key element of his teaching as it says in practically all his books "sex is the key which creates Angels or Demons", and in all of his books there is mentioned the duality of the White and Black lodge.
However there are many things in the article which are evidently just gleaned from his work and improperly explained. I dispute the neutrality of this as it leans towards promoting the doctrine of the Glorian school, of who I assume Mr 'T Baphomet' is a follower.
For example there are direct links within the article to the website of Glorian publishing.
This article should not be promoting any particular school, rather it should explain the life and doctrine of Samael Aun Weor. Furthermore why are the books given as 'Thelema Press' books with their ISBN, are the freely available online translations made by his early students mentioned anywhere?
I will try over the next few days to place these entries in their proper position within the article and to add to and clean up the article where it is necessary, for example in "The Esoteric Antithesis" I should have mentioned his second book "The Revolution of Beelzebub", and also I must clear up mistakes in other parts of the article like where it says "any school which does not posess the three factors (sexual yoga etc) is degenerated". This is not directly quoting Samael Aun Weor and is creating a misconception of his teachings, he did not use the word degenerated in relation to any religion in fact he said "we are not against any religion, school, sect etc.
At present the entire article reads like a Theosophical reference book, it's far too wordy, and everything seems to have about 6 different terms from different religions attached to it, endless qualifications and justifications etc. It would take a big spade for your average person to dig through this article hey!
Regards,
'sparkandstir' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.100.123 ( talk) 14:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
ALRIGHT YO! Samael Aun Weor stated in clear terms in a 1977 letter published in Bolivia;
"In the circular 007 aimed at Colombia we declared in an emphatic way that the Gnostic Church, movement and organisation in general are living organisms of the POSCLA and of CHRISTISM SOCIALISM...
...The authorities of the Gnostic Church and Movement as well as any affiliated organisations are absolutely Christian and Social. They are never anti-Christian or antisocial."
Therefore, yes, The Social Christ is a key element of the doctrine in fact quite as important as the Esoteric Inner Work of the Gnosis.
Links to Glorian publishing should be removed since it is concretely demonstrated that they have intentionally falsified words and edited translations such as in the book "Logos, Mantram, Theurgy" where they edited the Seventh Key to Astral Projection by adding words decrying the use of Yage. Therefore they cannot be regarded as a reliable source for information about the Doctrine of Samael Aun Weor, as no group who are proven to have released false translations can be regarded as such. I am speaking in the realm of concrete and verifiable facts, which if you wish to dispute you must dispute from the same platform of verifiable fact. Speculation and emotional loyalty to a certain source is not the same thing as the facts of the Truth of the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparkandstir ( talk • contribs) 18:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Glorian Publishing have proven themselves to be a disreputable source. For example in the editing of "Logos, Mantram, Theurgy", there are also some changes made to "The Revolution of The Dialectic" and to other books. Unfortunately as there is not time to embark on a project of cataloguing and verifying every one of these errors in translation, it is not possible to provide a complete list, nonetheless it is concretely demonstrated and proven that Glorian have made intentional edits to the work of Samael Aun Weor, which they have later defended and not acknowledged their error. Given this we see that according to academic good practise and logical sense, Glorian cannot be regarded as a verifiable source for the works of Samael Aun Weor until they have publicly acknowledged their errors.
Therefore all references to Glorian publishing should be removed from the article. Does anyone have any reason to dispute this? Perhaps this case should be heard before the Wikipedia sources verification board or some independent adjudicator. If this must be the case then I will make efforts to collect all of the errors in translation found in Glorian books, comparing them to the original Spanish editions of which it is possible for me to obtain copies. If nobody has any objections to make within one week, I will begin this project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparkandstir ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
The whole The Doctrine of Synthesis reads horrible & the Religions may be the worst. For example the section Psychology, under The Doctrine of Synthesis, uses words & phrases like "stated," "taught" and "responded." The "Religions" section reads like it was either lifted directly from another source &/or sci-meta mumbo-jumbo. Dubious &/or neutrality issue?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ka'Jong ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi everybody. I have read a lot of marvellous books of this man. Thats why im speaking and writing. I see your beautiful article in "esoterism" category not complete. As a reader of this author - Samael Aun Weor, i appreciate his works very much, because i found them very real or very close to reality. As a reader i know that in many of his works he give various predictions very well and logically described. Some of them i saw. Some of them im seeing in present moment. I know that others i will see in close future.
I advise you to form a headline about this. What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evgeny Latishev ( talk • contribs) 13:00, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree to the above - please put in the predictions.
samael — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.81.176.167 ( talk) 13:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
The current state of the article is that it to 65% cites Samael Aun Weor, and 35% others. That and the fact that citations are used to make a factual saga of Samael Aun Weor's life to sound like a bit of ueberfantatic:
While I admit that such citations might be very hard to find, as a general measure, the article should include more non-primary sources. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 11:10, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
It's pathetically obvious that this article is completely biased. I have nothing against Samael, but this article desperately needs a hatchet job. It looks like no-one but Samael devotees has looked at this article since the day it was born. Sardaka ( talk) 08:15, 1 August 2021 (UTC) Sardaka ( talk) 08:15, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
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VM Samael founded various organisations. And these organisations split etc. etc. This has been discussed too many times. Also, it seems as if the various organisations are adding themselves and deleting others on the page etc. etc. Instead I propose that, in fairness, we have all or nothing. So I have removed the line "He founded the non-profit corporation, Gnostic Institute of Anthropology, Inc."
Please rather than everyone just changing this backwards and forwards could we at least post some discussion and sort it out properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.222.159.54 ( talk • contribs)
OK. sorry about that... You are right. Sorry I did not discuss first, it was discussed in older versions of this page where every day the list of links would change as each of the movements squabbled. Earlier I tried to add 'The Gnostic Movement' and 'POSCLA' as these were actually founded by Samael Aun Weor to this page and they were removed. I did not realise that they would need citations...
Either way, the statement is incorrect as Samael did not found the GIA. It was created after he died as a certain offshoot of his movement. Even the GIA UK site states "Together with his wife Litelantes, he founded the International Gnostic Movement in the 1950's". So this should be corrected. -B.Jensen (IP address is an internet cafe)
To help remedy this I propose to add this site www.sos-gnosis.org. A site dedicated to help the survivors of the Latin-American gnosis. It is well researched, and published by former members of the Latin-American Gnostics, they even have the origin of rituals and explanation of them. Before anyone raises any objection I like to use a precedent in WP. In the Scientology article in the external links section there are sites of detractors of the Church of Scientology. The article of SAW should have the same.
Also I will research further and add a section to this article regarding the anti-gay, misogynic and intolerant views of SAW.
Why would someone who knows little about the subject "research further": leave it to people who are familiar. SAW's attitudes regarding homosexuality are written quite clearly in the body. Comparing Crowley and LaVey to SAW is absurd, articles only need to state the facts, they are not essays where you need to present "a balanced argument". Crowley had his followers cut their bodies with razors, etc; as far as I am aware SAW did nothing of this sort, that is why this article will not be "balanced" in the way that one on Crowley inevitably would be.
A point about reliable third party info. It seems Samael mentions them in his own work e. g. Blavatzky, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Krumm Heller et al(capone). Wouldn't it be unfair to judge this article from a purely scientific point of view e. g. trying to prove the existence of solar bodies not in the realm of Physicas by physical means. After all, at the miracle of Lourdes when the people saw the sun rock'n roll (around the clock tonight), no Physicist noticed any change in its path across the sky; not even Dr. Teller who was able to detect a slight needle motion in the meter when the first Hydrogen explosion ocurred at the Bikini archipielago was able to notice anything. Another thing, the apparent bias of the article may stem from the partly occult nature of the subject due to the terrible persecution the Gnostics have suffered from the first centuries of Christianity which forced them to go and remain underground. The article on Opus Dei has a similar label appended to it. Now, shouldn't they be judged on their own merits and then bring up the opposite view or views and so arrive at a really neutral Wikipidean view with an article really worthy of Wikipedia and what it represents rather than just bark at the wrong tree all day long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDPhD ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Insert non-formatted text here
I dont know if the book list is complete but if not could somebody kindly create a complete listing of his books. Thanks
Bill (Feb 8, 2007)( talk) 20:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC).
Was Samael really born on March 16? Some texts mention it was born on March 3, and some other on March 6.
TRUELLY SAMAEL AUN WEOR WAS BORN ON MARCH 6th. ANY OTHER DATE IS FALSE. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
84.70.122.124 (
talk)
13:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
yeah, March 6 was the birthday for sure —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.217.85 ( talk) 21:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia have a policy on the order of external links? I think that the most relevant to be first would be www.gnosticteachings.org since it has by far the most material related to Samael Aun Weor and his teachings, or maybe Ageac or GIA. Gnosticweb, which is first at the moment, isn't as much related to Samael Aun Weor as it is to Mark Pritchard. I wanted to discuss this here first instead of just changing it to my own preferences, so what are your opinions? -- Anton H 19:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Removed the "History" section lacking in sources and potentially being ill-intended:
Arnold Krumm-Heller traveled in occult circles around the start of the 20th century where he studied with notable figures such as Gérard Encausse of the Martinist Order and Franz Hartmann of the 'Ordo Templaris Orientis'. In 1910 he founded the Iglesia Gnostica (Gnostic Church) in Mexico. Not finding as much success as he hoped for, he moved through Latin America before settling in Brazil. There he founded the Fraternidad de Rosacruz Antiqua (Fraternity of the Ancient Rosicrucians), following Randolph's usage. Krumm-Heller moved back to Germany in 1920, where he made contact with Aleister Crowley. Krumm-Heller kept a low profile through World War II, but when he was able to travel again after the war, he resumed contact with his Latin America students. Between that time and his death in 1949, Krumm-Heller encountered and subsequently mentored Victor Rodriguez who would subsequently take the name Samael Aun Weor. [1] Weor states that Krumm-Heller taught a form of Sexual Magic without ejaculation that would become the core of his own teachings. citation needed
As you can see it claims that SAW stated the he was taught sexual magic by A. Krumm-Heller which as far as I know is far from the truth and as you can see it cites no sources to support this claim, therefore I removed this section-paragraph as being potentially ill-intended and lacking in sources. Arthur Clark 14:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
References
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cite book}}
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(
help)
I removed most of the recent edits by 201.21.144.223 because of the following:
1. That the orgasm should not be reached during sexual intercourse is well explained in context in the text and I see no reason to state it again in the beginning of the section.
2. I don't think it's relevant or even necessarily true to state that nothing about what he teaches about sex could be scientifically proved. As far as I know there have been no scientific studies on the existence of solar bodies or the transmutation of sexual energy etc. I know some research on intercourse without orgasm that supports the teachings of Samael Aun Weor, but if you really think that it should be stated that it's not proved then please say it more specifically and provide sources.
3. That there is no proof that " 'The Doctrine of the Many' has been taught in the esoteric schools and religions since the beginning of time" seems highly irrelevant and out of place since what is described is esoteric and hidden knowledge.
If you disagree then I will be happy to discuss. Anton H 09:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems the question of plagiarism should also be removed e. g. if there is no actual corroborated court case. It is mere heresay if for example the Gurdjieff Foundation never went to the courts or brought forth a formal accusation. It's mere conjecture and should be removed as heresay with no factual reference whatsoever. JDPhD ( talk) 20:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Could someone provide a link on where to get Sameal Aun Weor herbal remedies? (I'm very sick)
Bill
Apr. 22, 2007
Okay thank you Anton. I really appreciate it! Ive been to the doctor but they offer me very little solution. I would like to try alternative approaches to healing.
(Unfortunatly I dont have a link page.)
Bill 25 April, 2007
Just to let the editors of this article know that I've added some cleanup tags. I can see that a lot of the content of the article is from primary sources written by Samael Aun Weor himself. Please try to find some other reliable sources. Also, as a result of this primary source editing, there is a lot of quotes on the text. Please try to rewrite their content outside the quote. Also i was tempted to put an "unencyclopedical" tag on this article. The article is about the character in question, but much of its content is an explanation of his philosophy. Please clean it up. BTW, most of his work is based on theosophy, so a lot of this content could be added to that article, in order to clean up this one. Thanks a lot. -- Legion fi 07:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
About a year ago I try to bring in o more balanced view of Victor Gomez. The religious zealots did not allow so. As balance go there are a lot of inconsistencies in the samaelian Gnosticism. Not to mention all the teachings that are left out (maybe on purpose?) that is not good for public relations or a recruitment paper. With quite the skill misogynic and homophobic teachings are suppress. Not to mention all the plagiarism that Victor Gomez did. For closer inspections many of Victor Gomez works are translations or plagiarism from Victor Krumm-Heller, Gurdjieff, Gerard Encausse, Blavasky and Crowley (the samaelian Gnostic 1st Degree or Gnostic Mass in a variation of Crowleys Liber XV)
I invite any one to read Bel’s Revolution to read how Victor Gomez relate to others and the hate he display against other occult/esoteric organizations… also Tarot and Kabbalah for the way he expresses his opinion on woman… and finally Elementary Treatise on Magic on what he considers those who do not follow its doctrine… food for though.
Further for try www.sos-gnosis.org to have a different view on Victor Gomez Gnosticism.
Latin-American Gnosticism has little to do with Gnosticism or Christian Gnosticism… its just Victor Gomez take on the occult…
Legion Fi if you are an idiot, at least you are an intelligent one. This article needs a lot of work to be encyclopedia worthy. The “unsigned” is nothing more than a religious zealot trying to sell its religion… Tanuky 21:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)tanuky October 10, 2007 Tanuky 21:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The question of plagiarism should be taken out of the article as mere heresay. If there is no formal accusation or court case then it should be taken out. Here say, it's hearsay. So is there a reference that the Gurdjieff Foundation brought charges of plagiarism against him in a court of law. Then the insinuation should be treated as such and considered unworthy of Wikipedia. The same goes for accusations of plagiarism in relation to other personalities of the occult e.g. Crowley. JDPhD ( talk) 20:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
How can I find more of his books. I'm very interested in learning more. I'm very excited.
-Bill May 30, 2007
Wow! Thank you Anton. I'm soo excited! I want to read all his books.
-Bill June 1, 2007
All original books in Spanish can be found at
http://www.gnosis2002.com/tabla.htm for free download.
119.160.141.222 (
talk)
10:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)Rodrigo
Nov, 22nd 2009
I disagree to the Anael website because it is not about the subject of the article and the material there is not his original teachings but the modified ones by Rabolu. The Thelema Press website has a lot more information which covers that on the Anael website. I also disagree to any link to a website that is mainly about an organization, such as AGEAC and GIA, because if we have one we should have all, and that would be too many. Please see WP:EL. Why do you think "educator" and "author" are more correct than "teacher" and "writer", respectively? Perhaps I can agree with author, but educator seems to be more rarely used than teacher, while having practically the same meaning. Thank you, Anton H 20:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
This website support my claim
http://www.ageacac.net/secciones/ageacac/index.php
http://www.google.com/translate_t
Use Google Translate, the translation is so so, but the point comes across. Helios solaris 23:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
We need to come to an agreement on which external links should be included in the article. There is no need for a great many, and I don't think that links to websites about a specific organization should be included, because there are many of those. What do you think? Make sure that you are familiar with the external links guideline before stating your opinion. Thank you. Anton H 21:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Many of the recent additions made to the article have been unreferenced, original research and POV. Please read the policies listed on the top of this talk page before making any more edits. Thank you. Anton H 21:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Check http://www.gnosticbooks.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=2&Itemid=5 at the end of the text.
There is a difference in opinions whether the article should include information and history about different schools, organizations and associations. Perhaps a distinction between official schools that are under the authority of Osiris Gomez Garro, the son of Samael Aun Weor and Litelantes. State below if you agree, disagree or are undecided. Afterwards, if you want, add arguments for your position. Thank you.
Aside from agreeing, disagreeing or being undecided, it looks like if this article is about Samael Aun Weor and he estblished an organization then it should be accepted as such on its own merits if well referenced not merely by hearsay. Also if there are opposing or dissenting organizations and they are well referenced they should also be presented. Only in this way will the article create a spirit of Wikipedean neutrality. JDPhD ( talk) 20:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
How do you suggest that we create a history section that is well-referenced with reliable sources and NPOV? It seems to me to be impossible because of the lack of reliable sources and the controversy surrounding this area. Each source will say a different thing. One says that Litelantes was appointed the legitimate successor by Samael Aun Weor, another says that Joaquín Amortegui (Rabolu) was, and so on. The issue is difficult because if we add a statement that is disputed by others without allowing room for the other versions, it will be POV. And if we talk about the other versions that are out there it will become a mess. Maybe we should mention that since his death there have been several divisions within the Gnostic Movement and different persons claim to be his legitimate successor? I believe that would be NPOV, but the question is whether it should be in the article. What do the rest of you think? Anton H 15:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
There should be a separate article within wikipedia which gives reference to all official & unofficial schools. Arthur Clark 13:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I am moving a part of the text that JDPhD added here because it seems to be original research. The following part explaining about fallen bodhisattvas will be superfluous if the first part wasn't there, so I'm moving that too. If a reference is provided I will move it back again.
Anton H ( talk) 23:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Most of the article seems to be written with a bit of an appreciative / adulatory tone. And there are clearly some POV in the text, take a look at this:
Weor, without any lucrative ends, possesses activities for the International Gnostic Movement that promote and objectify to fight for the regeneration of the human being, raising its spiritual, moral, physical and intellectual level.
Needs cleaning up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.123.130.216 ( talk) 18:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree 100%. This article is going down the tubes fast. It needs a swift and strict cleaning. -- T. Baphomet ( talk) 00:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the article is too verbose, or wordy. It really detracts from the article. I am going to work to make it more concise. -- T. Baphomet ( talk) 00:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
An encyclopedia article should not read like a novel. This article uses too many loquacious adjectives and adverbs. It should be much more 'dry' (but not too dry!). By being wordy, the validity of the article is called into question. -- T. Baphomet ( talk) 01:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
In trying to edit objectively, one should watch one's own subjectivity. If the link appears first in an article, it adds to the value of the encyclopedia to keep it rather than remove it. If it is used a second time, then it is politically correct to remove it without much ado. Try some dry vermouth! Ain't that what you saying? A truly Wikipedean article is neutral so it does not add to or take away from an article if used as a link the first time it appears and no more. Rather it adds to the value of the encyclopedia and makes use of one of the greatest information weapons ever designed by man THE CYBERLINK. JDPhD ( talk) 21:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't look like the statement "proliferated throughout the world" can be supported by ref(1) which is just the websight of Gnostic Institute of Anthropology UK. If there is another reference that is more encompassing it should be used. Otherwise, it should be dropped. JDPhD ( talk) 21:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
There is not even one note that a reader can refer to a specific page of the work cited e. g. Note (32) ..."all sexual desire is held as degenerate" (WOW!) then mention is made of a book published by Glorian but no exact page indicated where it may be corroborated that "all sexual desire is held as degenerate". Please, if you can't be truthful, at least be specific. Thank you. JDPhD ( talk) 21:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I've just read the chapter in The Perfect Marriage titled The Work with the Demon and there's not the slightest hint there that "all sex is degenerate" as note (51) presumably indicates. This chapter is mainly about the dissolution of the ego. There're some points about sex but none goes so far as to state that all sex is degenerate as note (51) seems to indicate. The on-line version of the Perfect Marriage that I consulted is at the following link: [1] JDPhD ( talk) 22:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Will someone please fix the notes from 26 on; they've gone awry. JDPhD ( talk) 21:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Will someone please give me a hand with this note #51, I've not seen the Glorian Perfect Marriage of more than 250 pages. I've seen the original Spanish and it has about 179 pages. I've also seen two English versions that have one 189 pages and the other one about 215 pages. The section where the note appears it mentions a passage from the Gospel according to St. Luke but I've tried to locate this passage in the Perfect Matrimony and I've not been able to. There are some passages from the Gospel according to St. Mark but that's about it. Anyway, this passage in St. Luke 21: 19 is in the context of Jesus and his followers and the end of times. Nothing about soulless anything. JDPhD ( talk) 20:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Good job! May I suggest then that the statement that appears on the page be removed. It states: "Samael Aun Weor states that according to Jesus in the New Testament, the ordinary person does not actually possess a soul". The whole idea behind my introducing the statements from the Holy Bible and Buddhism was simply to bring up the point that the doctrine of no-soul is not Christian but Buddhist. The statement "...according to Jesus in the New Testament" clearly means Christianity. JDPhD ( talk) 19:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, first of all I have to state that I have been following Helios edits closely. And I haven't reversed them because I felt I didn't have any arguments against them. And I still don't. But his clearance of the NPOV tag was the drop that spilled the glass. Im sorry. But all of the "Doctrine of Synthesis" section references come from primary sources from Samael Aun Weor himself. This clearly violates WP:PSTS. I beg someone with enought knowledge and/or time to dig into this articles problems besides Helios Solaris. Thanks. -- Legion fi ( talk) 05:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
* only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and * make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source."
Frankly I don't see the point of all these new references that are being added to the text. More is not necessarily better in this case. References should provide support for statements made in the article, not additional information on a subject. Quoted from Wikipedia:Verifiability:
For example, the very first source listed: G. R. S. Mead, M. A. Fragments of a Faith Forgotten: the Gnostics, a contribution to the origins of Christianity. I have not read this book, but I'm sure that it does not say anything about the International Gnostic Movement formed by Samael Aun Weor, since it was written before his time. It seems the Notes section needs a good clean-up. Anton H ( talk) 16:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I have removed from the section "Doctrine of Synthesis" the following text as sourced with inadequate references:
Neither [[Eliphas Levi]] nor [[Madame Blavatsky|H. P. Blavatsky]], [[Gurdjieff]], [[P. D. Ouspensky]], [[Rudolf Steiner|Steiner]], [[H. Spencer Lewis]], [[R. Swinburne Clymer]], [[Manly Palmer Hall]], [[Max Heindel]] or any other prominent exponent of [[esoteric]] lore<ref>[[Dion Fortune]] ''Esoteric Orders And Their Work'', Red Wheel/Weiser, 2007 ISBN 978-1578631841; Rider & Co., 1st ed. 1928 </ref> ever revealed publicly the Secret of the Great Arcanum: only Samael Aun Weor has. <ref>Eliphas Levi ''Transcendental Magic'', p. 94, Weiser, 1995 ISBN 0-87728-079-7</ref>
__ meco ( talk) 14:48, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
"...the fact that more people are being born as homosexuals..." from the Homosexuality section isn't, in fact, a fact at all. If it is, it needs a reference since it's not referenced as a quote from Aun Weor's teachings.
Presently the article has "Aun Weor" as sort key for its categories. Is this correct? __ meco ( talk) 08:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
While your intention to contribute to this article is appreciated, there are certain rules and guidelines on Wikipedia that need to be followed. Your edits lacked an encyclopedic tone which is preferred on Wikipedia. Moreover, the added texts seem to be negatively biased by what appears to be your own opinions and experiences with the subject of the article, this is in conflict with the policies of Neutral Point of View as well as Original Research. The statements made need proper references as Wikipedia is not a place to state your own opinion but, as far as possible, to reflect statements already made in the published literature. I'm sorry having to remove all of that text which I'm sure took some time to write. Please read through the mentioned guidelines and make sure that your future edits are in accordance with these. Thank you. Anton H ( talk) 16:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Since the discovery of the gnostic texts and much exploration and research as to the authenticity of these topics, we might also as students and scholars of all ancient texts, recognize that there will certainly be a wave of interest that will result in one of two outcomes. Since Gnosticism is a form of knowledge that is pure and absent from any attachments to conventional religion, the most effectual influence it may have is on students seeking a pure doctrine of Christ. This is a positive outcome for the discovery of the Gnostic texts, as the original message teaches that each and every one must come to 'gnosis' by seeking knowledge on a single and solitary path. The other effect it may have, is as in the days of Roman rule, is to create a variety of 'sects' or 'cults' which are fallibly based on the underdeveloped intellect of the 'worldly' as the Savior describes it in some of the readings. These sects and cults although very knowledgeable about the 'techniques' of occult and hermetic (black magic) arts may superimpose their interests and ideas as 'gnosis' although they may be far from a true and mystic gnosis. This negative coloring thus would be expanded to serve a selfish interest and promote the 'worldly', that which the Savior states he hated about those who revel in darkness. It is important to understand that now in our modern times, as Gnostic scriptures are once again being revealed, that we guard carefully against this sort of mingling the sciences and arts with concepts of knowledge that were meant to enliven or illuminate, not to darken or decieve. The capacity of cults and sects in our age is just as potentially proliferant as it was in the times of the early Christians, and has happened again in the growth of a gnostic movement that is not truly gnostic in origin. To avoid occult contamination of the mind with what is not the true Gnostic teachings, one must first search for the authenticity of the real documents, read the real documents as found in thier original state and read them as they were written from direct literal translations in the original language. Each seeker must have a chance to examine the real historical documents and references so that he/she would know what the real teachings are. Certain prolific authors who may or may not have good intentions, may have rewritten their 'idea' of what the gnostic teachings said without giving any reference to the original documents. In some extreme cases, they may have proselytized their 'own' version of gnosticism by not considering whether their quotations and discourse about the original texts differs in 'meaning' from the original text. Meditating on what was said in the gnostic scriptures and then writing about one's meditations is truly different from the actual reading and contemplation of the gnostic scriptures and actually teaching it verbatim. To do the former, is an outrage to all seekers who are seeking their own path indiscriminately from the polluted viewpoints of others. To do the latter is to receive the message as written by the historical recorder in its true form. To read the original writings and to evaluate them for what they truly say in the original language and regard them as similar or dissimilar to one's own is to be truthful to oneself. Each seeker of truth must examine oneself prior to applying these gospels or any other ancient writing. A benevolent seeker of truth may be more interested in his or her salvation rather than trying to sway or influence others towards a particular idea or application of doctrine. Remember each must follow his own path. That is the true gist of Gnosticism. Currently I am aware of only a handful of gnostic thinkers that serve a group. In any event, I am sure none of these would be interested in leading a group because 'leading' itself is unworthy of 'gnosis'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.88.240 ( talk) 04:14, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I see a 2009 discussion comment that the clean up is largely done.
But to me the very long piece still reads like a tract for Weor-ism, very unlike the typical, concise, neutral encyclopedia style of Wikipedia.
Is the section title "Master and avatar" a little promotional?
With reference to the long paragraph on "Initiations of higher mysteries," the article on Buddha headlines similar experiences with the more neutral "Enlightenment."
The text of the Buddha article runs 23 screens on my computer, the Weor article 38, suggesting to me that we're over-emphasizing the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.186.248 ( talk) 04:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I have added sections on 'The Social Christ', 'Elemental Medicine' etc and will be cleaning up some things in the article over the next few days or weeks.
I dispute T. Baphomet's comment that "The Social Christ" is not encyclopedic as it is a key aspect of the life and work of Samael Aun Weor and POSCLA was one of the key elements of his doctrine. To write an article on him without devoting fair space to this is absurd.
Furthermore "Elemental Medicine" was also a key aspect of his life and work, it is mentioned in the first part of the article that he was a wanderer living with the Indians of the Sierra Nevada and so this is evidently a crucially important aspect of his life. "The Esoteric Antithesis" was a key element of his teaching as it says in practically all his books "sex is the key which creates Angels or Demons", and in all of his books there is mentioned the duality of the White and Black lodge.
However there are many things in the article which are evidently just gleaned from his work and improperly explained. I dispute the neutrality of this as it leans towards promoting the doctrine of the Glorian school, of who I assume Mr 'T Baphomet' is a follower.
For example there are direct links within the article to the website of Glorian publishing.
This article should not be promoting any particular school, rather it should explain the life and doctrine of Samael Aun Weor. Furthermore why are the books given as 'Thelema Press' books with their ISBN, are the freely available online translations made by his early students mentioned anywhere?
I will try over the next few days to place these entries in their proper position within the article and to add to and clean up the article where it is necessary, for example in "The Esoteric Antithesis" I should have mentioned his second book "The Revolution of Beelzebub", and also I must clear up mistakes in other parts of the article like where it says "any school which does not posess the three factors (sexual yoga etc) is degenerated". This is not directly quoting Samael Aun Weor and is creating a misconception of his teachings, he did not use the word degenerated in relation to any religion in fact he said "we are not against any religion, school, sect etc.
At present the entire article reads like a Theosophical reference book, it's far too wordy, and everything seems to have about 6 different terms from different religions attached to it, endless qualifications and justifications etc. It would take a big spade for your average person to dig through this article hey!
Regards,
'sparkandstir' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.100.123 ( talk) 14:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
ALRIGHT YO! Samael Aun Weor stated in clear terms in a 1977 letter published in Bolivia;
"In the circular 007 aimed at Colombia we declared in an emphatic way that the Gnostic Church, movement and organisation in general are living organisms of the POSCLA and of CHRISTISM SOCIALISM...
...The authorities of the Gnostic Church and Movement as well as any affiliated organisations are absolutely Christian and Social. They are never anti-Christian or antisocial."
Therefore, yes, The Social Christ is a key element of the doctrine in fact quite as important as the Esoteric Inner Work of the Gnosis.
Links to Glorian publishing should be removed since it is concretely demonstrated that they have intentionally falsified words and edited translations such as in the book "Logos, Mantram, Theurgy" where they edited the Seventh Key to Astral Projection by adding words decrying the use of Yage. Therefore they cannot be regarded as a reliable source for information about the Doctrine of Samael Aun Weor, as no group who are proven to have released false translations can be regarded as such. I am speaking in the realm of concrete and verifiable facts, which if you wish to dispute you must dispute from the same platform of verifiable fact. Speculation and emotional loyalty to a certain source is not the same thing as the facts of the Truth of the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparkandstir ( talk • contribs) 18:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Glorian Publishing have proven themselves to be a disreputable source. For example in the editing of "Logos, Mantram, Theurgy", there are also some changes made to "The Revolution of The Dialectic" and to other books. Unfortunately as there is not time to embark on a project of cataloguing and verifying every one of these errors in translation, it is not possible to provide a complete list, nonetheless it is concretely demonstrated and proven that Glorian have made intentional edits to the work of Samael Aun Weor, which they have later defended and not acknowledged their error. Given this we see that according to academic good practise and logical sense, Glorian cannot be regarded as a verifiable source for the works of Samael Aun Weor until they have publicly acknowledged their errors.
Therefore all references to Glorian publishing should be removed from the article. Does anyone have any reason to dispute this? Perhaps this case should be heard before the Wikipedia sources verification board or some independent adjudicator. If this must be the case then I will make efforts to collect all of the errors in translation found in Glorian books, comparing them to the original Spanish editions of which it is possible for me to obtain copies. If nobody has any objections to make within one week, I will begin this project. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sparkandstir ( talk • contribs) 19:19, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
The whole The Doctrine of Synthesis reads horrible & the Religions may be the worst. For example the section Psychology, under The Doctrine of Synthesis, uses words & phrases like "stated," "taught" and "responded." The "Religions" section reads like it was either lifted directly from another source &/or sci-meta mumbo-jumbo. Dubious &/or neutrality issue?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ka'Jong ( talk • contribs) 23:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi everybody. I have read a lot of marvellous books of this man. Thats why im speaking and writing. I see your beautiful article in "esoterism" category not complete. As a reader of this author - Samael Aun Weor, i appreciate his works very much, because i found them very real or very close to reality. As a reader i know that in many of his works he give various predictions very well and logically described. Some of them i saw. Some of them im seeing in present moment. I know that others i will see in close future.
I advise you to form a headline about this. What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evgeny Latishev ( talk • contribs) 13:00, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree to the above - please put in the predictions.
samael — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.81.176.167 ( talk) 13:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
The current state of the article is that it to 65% cites Samael Aun Weor, and 35% others. That and the fact that citations are used to make a factual saga of Samael Aun Weor's life to sound like a bit of ueberfantatic:
While I admit that such citations might be very hard to find, as a general measure, the article should include more non-primary sources. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 11:10, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
It's pathetically obvious that this article is completely biased. I have nothing against Samael, but this article desperately needs a hatchet job. It looks like no-one but Samael devotees has looked at this article since the day it was born. Sardaka ( talk) 08:15, 1 August 2021 (UTC) Sardaka ( talk) 08:15, 1 August 2021 (UTC)