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"male sons": I know it's not correct in English, but the distinctions I meant was: "sons and not daughters". I hope "sons" does not include them both, so to keep clear that it is the "male descendance" (but no one else apart from sons - if there are any). G
Yes, figli means 'children' (any combination of sons and daughters). Sons are necessarily male.
S.
Gianfranco -- I've always thought that Salic Law is traditionally supposed to come from the Laws of the Salian (as opposed to Ripuarian) Franks -- not from the Salian dynasty, which is not normally associated with France -- am I mistaken? JHK
---
Altering this: "Finally, Queen Elizabeth II is Duke, not Duchess, of Normandy, because the duchy (consisting of the Channel Islands, not Normandy in France) is both under the control of the British monarch and governed by the Salic law. Therefore, for the purpose of that duchy, the Queen must be construed as legally male ", which is a frequently seen canard, (based mostly on the frisson it gives to toast to "To the Queen, our Duke").
At this point, the article still does not even mention the Salian Franks. It reads as though Shakespeare wrote the damned thing. I'm fixing, but shouldn't have to... JHK
With respect to the 100 years war, no jurist mentioned the Salic Law as a reason why the English king should not be the king of France before the 15th century. Although the accession of Philip of Valois followed the Salic law, this does not mean that the Salic law determined the succession.
If Philip of Valois had been unambiguously the legal heir to the French throne in 1328, there would have been no need for him to require his neice Joan (the daughter of Louis X who had been passed up for the succession when she was six years old due to some combination her gender, minority, and possible illegitimacy, later Joan II, Queen of Navarre) to renounce her claim on the French throne. Shimmin 20:15, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
Isn't Luxembourg's independence due in some way to the Salic Law? If so anyone who knows the facts would be most welcome to add it to the interesting twists section at the end.
I've moved a large part of the article out into a sub article and have split the article up more. - FrancisTyers 19:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
this paragraph only states in general that Victoria could not inherit Hanover "because of Salic law", but it fails to explain what part of the law. I assume it was because Salic law may require a male successor, but it doesn't say so. It would be helpful if that was explained.. Dunnhaupt 19:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Both here and in the section above on Luxembourg, and in several places in the article itself, the "Salic" explanation given for various successions is wrong. Neither Luxembourg nor Hannover had Salic law. Rather, they had semi-Salic law, which means that a female member of a dynasty can only inherit the throne after all males of the dynasty have died out. In both Luxembourg and Hannover, since there were males (albeit distantly related) who belonged to the same agnatic dynasty, when their respective King Williams died, the thrones went to those men instead of to their nearer-related female kin. Salic law was extremely rare by the 19th century, only being practiced by France, Sardinia and Sweden (with Bernadotte: Vasa Sweden allowed females to succeed), until the new Balkan monarchies (and Norway) took it up in the latter half of the 1800s and the early 20th century. Nor does "agnatic succession" absolutely exclude women: in English it means hereditary succession exclusively through males, not exclusively by males. The article needs re-writing with corrections. Lethiere ( talk) 03:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Please see Category talk:Earliest known manuscripts by language. Enaidmawr ( talk) 01:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't appear to me that the Frankish inheritance law described in this article and the material about male primogeniture in later kingdoms have much to do with one another except for the word "Salic". As the Frankish content appears fragmented and unclear to me (especially as it contains much less detail about Salic Law than the Early Germanic law article does), I wonder whether it would be improved by putting the two subjects in different articles. Aoeuidhtns ( talk) 04:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
How about a link to Irish celtic Brahon(spelling?) law ? They seem somewhat / much related. Would be interesting with a few words of comparison between the two as well (by someone who knows a bit more than I do on both :) 84.215.32.86 ( talk) 10:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Also, while it might be fun and interesting (to law nerds such as myself) there's another hazard: The Salic Law adherents were surrounded by a number of other cultures. If I added Salic Law's comparison to, say, the Cymri (closer than the Irish Celts), the Swiss Celts or Avars, then the article can expand to unwieldy. We can always leave the comparisons to the diligent student. (As an aside - I know at least one person with scholar's credentials who does write WP articles to do his best to keep his students best informed by developments in the field.) LTC (Ret.) David J. Cormier ( talk) 13:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
What is an "attestation" in here and how is it "direct"? Is the meaning "the only known remaining written instances of Old Dutch"?
Richard Ong ( talk) 05:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I suppose an attestation is a written utterance. I suppose a direct attestation is a written witness to the utterance as opposed to a reconstructed form. I don't know, however, as this is not linguistic language. I suppose the editor means the Malberg Glosses are the only known instances of Old Low Franconian. Needs to be checked. Never can tell what has turned up; new things are discovered every year. Generally there is not enough here on language. I do plan to rewrite it. Dave ( talk) 04:37, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
The article omits the use of the Salic Law after the death of Kings Louis XII and Henri III and the abdication of King Charles X. Thank you, Nerissa-Marie ( talk) 22:39, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Salic law article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"male sons": I know it's not correct in English, but the distinctions I meant was: "sons and not daughters". I hope "sons" does not include them both, so to keep clear that it is the "male descendance" (but no one else apart from sons - if there are any). G
Yes, figli means 'children' (any combination of sons and daughters). Sons are necessarily male.
S.
Gianfranco -- I've always thought that Salic Law is traditionally supposed to come from the Laws of the Salian (as opposed to Ripuarian) Franks -- not from the Salian dynasty, which is not normally associated with France -- am I mistaken? JHK
---
Altering this: "Finally, Queen Elizabeth II is Duke, not Duchess, of Normandy, because the duchy (consisting of the Channel Islands, not Normandy in France) is both under the control of the British monarch and governed by the Salic law. Therefore, for the purpose of that duchy, the Queen must be construed as legally male ", which is a frequently seen canard, (based mostly on the frisson it gives to toast to "To the Queen, our Duke").
At this point, the article still does not even mention the Salian Franks. It reads as though Shakespeare wrote the damned thing. I'm fixing, but shouldn't have to... JHK
With respect to the 100 years war, no jurist mentioned the Salic Law as a reason why the English king should not be the king of France before the 15th century. Although the accession of Philip of Valois followed the Salic law, this does not mean that the Salic law determined the succession.
If Philip of Valois had been unambiguously the legal heir to the French throne in 1328, there would have been no need for him to require his neice Joan (the daughter of Louis X who had been passed up for the succession when she was six years old due to some combination her gender, minority, and possible illegitimacy, later Joan II, Queen of Navarre) to renounce her claim on the French throne. Shimmin 20:15, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
Isn't Luxembourg's independence due in some way to the Salic Law? If so anyone who knows the facts would be most welcome to add it to the interesting twists section at the end.
I've moved a large part of the article out into a sub article and have split the article up more. - FrancisTyers 19:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
this paragraph only states in general that Victoria could not inherit Hanover "because of Salic law", but it fails to explain what part of the law. I assume it was because Salic law may require a male successor, but it doesn't say so. It would be helpful if that was explained.. Dunnhaupt 19:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Both here and in the section above on Luxembourg, and in several places in the article itself, the "Salic" explanation given for various successions is wrong. Neither Luxembourg nor Hannover had Salic law. Rather, they had semi-Salic law, which means that a female member of a dynasty can only inherit the throne after all males of the dynasty have died out. In both Luxembourg and Hannover, since there were males (albeit distantly related) who belonged to the same agnatic dynasty, when their respective King Williams died, the thrones went to those men instead of to their nearer-related female kin. Salic law was extremely rare by the 19th century, only being practiced by France, Sardinia and Sweden (with Bernadotte: Vasa Sweden allowed females to succeed), until the new Balkan monarchies (and Norway) took it up in the latter half of the 1800s and the early 20th century. Nor does "agnatic succession" absolutely exclude women: in English it means hereditary succession exclusively through males, not exclusively by males. The article needs re-writing with corrections. Lethiere ( talk) 03:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Please see Category talk:Earliest known manuscripts by language. Enaidmawr ( talk) 01:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't appear to me that the Frankish inheritance law described in this article and the material about male primogeniture in later kingdoms have much to do with one another except for the word "Salic". As the Frankish content appears fragmented and unclear to me (especially as it contains much less detail about Salic Law than the Early Germanic law article does), I wonder whether it would be improved by putting the two subjects in different articles. Aoeuidhtns ( talk) 04:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
How about a link to Irish celtic Brahon(spelling?) law ? They seem somewhat / much related. Would be interesting with a few words of comparison between the two as well (by someone who knows a bit more than I do on both :) 84.215.32.86 ( talk) 10:39, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Also, while it might be fun and interesting (to law nerds such as myself) there's another hazard: The Salic Law adherents were surrounded by a number of other cultures. If I added Salic Law's comparison to, say, the Cymri (closer than the Irish Celts), the Swiss Celts or Avars, then the article can expand to unwieldy. We can always leave the comparisons to the diligent student. (As an aside - I know at least one person with scholar's credentials who does write WP articles to do his best to keep his students best informed by developments in the field.) LTC (Ret.) David J. Cormier ( talk) 13:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
What is an "attestation" in here and how is it "direct"? Is the meaning "the only known remaining written instances of Old Dutch"?
Richard Ong ( talk) 05:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I suppose an attestation is a written utterance. I suppose a direct attestation is a written witness to the utterance as opposed to a reconstructed form. I don't know, however, as this is not linguistic language. I suppose the editor means the Malberg Glosses are the only known instances of Old Low Franconian. Needs to be checked. Never can tell what has turned up; new things are discovered every year. Generally there is not enough here on language. I do plan to rewrite it. Dave ( talk) 04:37, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
The article omits the use of the Salic Law after the death of Kings Louis XII and Henri III and the abdication of King Charles X. Thank you, Nerissa-Marie ( talk) 22:39, 26 May 2012 (UTC)