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salafism has alot to do with islam, people have mixed up views, the text bellow is describing not salafism but sufism, which is another sect of sunni in islam. people who write this comment have a wrong method of thinking, as you can see he claims to talk to 1 salaf muslim and stereotypes to them all. this method of thinking, if everyone had this they would claim all muslims are terrorists.
salafism go on one strong belief and thats to only take information with evidence. This means taking information from hadith which are authentic and quran. The prophet (saws) said to his wife verily for you i am a salif, salafi means piest. the sahaba are sometimes refered to as the salif, so this individual who wrote these comments should not talk without information.
Salafiism includes several non-classical views, that are implicitly prohibited in Qur'an and Sahih Hadith (ALL SALAFIS I HAVE MET SUBSCRIBE TO THESE BELIEFS):
- Employing a "Piir", (GRAVE WORSHIPPERs, HARAM ACCORDING TO QURAN) to pray for you, in exchange for money. - The justification of acts such as the London 7/7 bombings, WHICH IS ALSO HARAM, (QURAN; FIGHT ONLY COMBATANTS) - The theft of items from non-Muslims, WHICH IS ALSO HARAM. - They also buy and sell Drugs, Narcotics and Alcohol, they say it is OK to sell these to non-Muslims, AGAIN HARAM. (QUazzarn) - AND MUCH MORE.
They are not Muslims in my opinion, and the opinion of Sheikhs that follow no Bid'a (Innovated) group or sect.
I hope I have not offended anyone, because I said the Salafis I HAVE MET!
--- can I just say how ridiculous this persons comment is. You are saying that in salafi Islam that we think it is halal to sell drugs and worship graves? you clearly have no idea who the slaafi are and you are spreading hate propoganda and speaking when you have no knowledge which is completely haram btw and is how rumours get started.
The salafi are the least likely to worship graves out of ALL the islamic groups and you'd know that if you read Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahab's "Book of Islamic Monotheism" or "Kitab at Tauheed" but you clearly know very little of this situation know offence. Speaking without knowledge is very dangerous and i advise you to fear allah. To say all these things about salafism from the stereotype of one person. shows your method of thinking is very bad. Individuals like this with this method of thinking would assume all muslims are terrorists, from that minority which do extremism (blowing them selfs up)which is haram and will repeatedly do this in the hell fire.
I can tell you truth regarding salaafi if you are interested.
Salaafi and Wahabi are the same but Wahabbi is a derogatory term. The term Wahabbi comes from the scholar Sheik ul Islam Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahhab and is taught by the salafi as a great way of understanding SHIRK (such as worshipping graves which is why this comment is so ridiculous because salaafi always talk about everything being bid'ah (innovated) or shirk (worshipping other than Allah). We do not even wear any sort of qur'an around our necks because we consider this shirk as we should only put out faith in Allah and not created objects and we dislike the new things introduced into Islam after the first three generations of Muslims because the Prophet (pease be upon him) said many things on this sibject that leads us to believe innovations are always a misguidance. Ia m happy to put the salafi POV accross but not if it gets deleted by sufi types the second I create it because people get political about it and dont wnat other people viewing anything that might change their oppinion. I am giving these facts to you straight up but no doubt a sufi or other sects opposed to salafism would like to put a spin on this article to put people off it and to give us a bad reputation. I first came to Islam and met some sufi before going to salafism and they call nayone who is not sufi a "Wahabi" who apparently promotes terrorism and is apparently "evil" because we dont like your bid'ah and shirk.
Regarding Madhabs, we do not folow madhabs because we consider this to be taqleed (blind following) although we completely respect the four great imams who began the madhabs and are more opposed to the staunch supporting of a particulraly madhab, even when the daleel (evidence from teh qur'an and sunnah) is much stronger than the oppinion of a particular madhab. We also dont aggree with the actual labels used for each individual madhab. there is no issue with people praying differently, we completely accept VALID difference of oppinions as long as proof can be found in teh two authentic sources and if someone sprayer or any other fiqh issue appears to adhere to any particular madhab, this is no issue as long as the individual does not label themselves with that madhab and does not hold onto it so much that they refuse to do anything the madhab doesn't sanction. We follow the sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him) and commands from teh qur'an. the four greta imams were great scholars and we can look at their analysis of teh qur'an and sunnah but not follow on eof them blindly but try to find teh truth by finding the true belief and practice of the prophet Muhammed SAW. This is the salafi belief. We believe that we must follow the madhab of the prophet SAW and not anyone else. Hope this clarify's things. If you need any fiurther info from a salafi ask away, if you are interested only in pushing your POV then go ahead, Allah decides who is guided and you will not misguide someone by misleading or biased info on a wiki sight. With regards to terrorism, what is terrorism? Killing innocent civilians? then is america and Israel terrorists? We dont believe in harming non combatants but we do believe in teh right to defend yourself from foreign invaders as is the case in occupied palestine and afghanistan and iraq etc. this is honest salafi belief, no messin, no sugar coating, no bias, straight up from a salafi. Hope it helps. Assalamu Alaykum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.253.19 ( talk) 22:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Although I have previously responded to these sophmoric, unreferenced claims regarding the issue of taking a Math'hab. Ibn Taymiyyah, who hopefully Shaikh User:86.139.253.19 has at least heard of, said that the one who is incapable of understanding the ruling that Allah or his Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alaihi wa Salam) have given in a particular matter, than this person is "to be praised and rewarded and not dispraised or punished" for sollowing a person of knowledge so long as the opinion of other than that person does not seem stronger (Majmoo' al-Fataawaa 20-225). This clearly illustrated the moderation with which a Muslim, a Salafi, deals with matters such as these: not calling for absolute taqleed as the one who falsely attributed the statement "Whoever blindly follows a scholar meets Allah safely" nor calling for unqualified people to give their own rulings. Supertouch ( talk) 12:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Assalamu alaykum brother, would a polite salaam not be appropraite for your brother in islam?
Yes of course I have herad of Ibn Taimya (RA) Brother im a little confused as to what the issue is? A bunch of sufi's were talking on behalf of the salaafi's and you consdier them more qualified than me? Considering somoene was accusing teh salaafi of worshipping graves? Aoudhu Billah. Of course I am not an authority to talk on behalf of all salaafi, I am simply passing on teh correct manhaj of the salaafya because of teh gross ignorance of the people on this website. Of course if you can get a member of the ulema of saudia to register with wikipedia and speak on our behalf I will certainly step down. if you wish to correct anything I said regarding teh salaafi manhaj then I will certainly check up on your corrcetions. But the Salaafi manhaj is one so when I say "we" there is no issue with this unless I state something incorrectly in which case, point out my mistake and inshallah I will make taubah.
And where on earth did yo get arm chair Jihaadi from brother, I am no Jihaadi, the salaafi ulema have pronounced that there is no jihad to be faught on the planet right now and that the best thing for any muslim to do is to return to the sunnah and then call others to the sunnah after him (first by his family, then the community etc etc and working outwards).
Im sorry you took offence to something I said but I think considering there were no other salaafi's speaking out I felt the need to step up and defend all this garbage that people were saying about teh salaafi. WOudl you rather I stay quiet and everyone can see how apparently we sell drugs and support 9/11? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.211.126 ( talk) 20:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
by the way my username is Ahmed khan, sorry sometimes I post without logging in as Im using public computers. I go to masjid as salifyah in birmingham and am involved in the salaafi dawah in the wouth west alhamdulillah. Its not difficult to wirte a non biased article without swaying either way and sticking to the facts so I see no reason why people make such difficult work of this, they should stop seeing it as a place for dawah. Also please visit the wahhabi page and contribute their. the article is hideously biased and so we need to work on making it neutral inshallah because a lie against Allah is the worst lie and we must correct it inshallah.
ahmedKhan ( talk) 21:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Note: Ahmed, please don't take it out on Sufis (as you have done here and elsewhere, both in talk and article edits) simply because you are ideologically opposed to the Sufi ways. Having studied the Sufis since 1986, I could take offense ... but I won't. That is not what I am here for. You need to leave the donkey at the door before you enter. Esowteric+ Talk 21:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Supertouch ( talk) 12:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
One sentence in the article should be reworded or changed: "Salafism may have more appeal than secularism by appropriating secularisms' traditional role of defending the socially and politically weak against the powerful.[43]" This sentence is important, because it depicts the reasoning behind the political choices of Salafis, and partially explains why Eastern Muslims, specifically Salafis, don't except what the West hopes they will accept: secularism. Still, this sentence describes secularism as having the "traditional role of defending the socially and politically weak against the powerful." Both Secularism and Salafism defend the weak against the powerful, but secularism isn't the originator of such policies, and is thus, not the bearer of the "traditional role." Only in the eyes of a Westerner does Secularism bear the traditional role of defending the weak against the powerful. Before either of these philosophies emerged, Islam and Christianity specifically defended the weak against the powerful. Indeed this was a specific political goal of these two religions. It must be remembered that both of these religions declare themselves as "the religion of the poor." Secularism is a movement that, like many others, traces its roots to the philosophers of greeks, but secular societies never emerged until far later, and the true intellectual founders of Secularism were Age of Enlightenment thinkers. Secularism is a new modern basis for a state, and does not hold the "traditional role of defending the socially and politically weak against the powerful." I do not have access to the citation, but I would like to see its context. Additionally, if the citation is solid, I hope that the article would mention that neither Salafis nor secularist can claim the traditional role of defending the weak. This should be especially clear with regards to the locations that Salafis are prevalent. Most of the societies where Salafis are present in great numbers are not or have never been secular. -- 98.209.237.136 ( talk) 22:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
In favor -- I suggest merging Wahhabism into this article and redirecting. I also suggest that the name be moved to Salafism, since Salafi is an adjective and shouldn't be used as an article title if possible. 170.160.9.3 00:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- I don't think anybody here understands the term Salafi or wahaabi. Anybody who knows arabic linguistically knows the term salafi means those people are from the salaf meaning those who adhere to their understanding. Wahaabi is a name given to those salafis led by Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahaab; who were dedicated to removing lewd practices within the islamic world such as grave worshipping, which none of the companions were reported to have done. It has now become a derogatory name thrown at those salafi's by non-muslims and opposing muslims alike —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.176.60 ( talk) 11:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Oppose -- I don't think that both should be merged,as salafis are pure muslims following nothing but Quran and Sahi Hadith, the name salafi given is because salafi derives from the word salaf (salf sualeheen), its better we call ourselves Muslims. 10 Oct 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atif79 ( talk • contribs) 11:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
OPPOSE Ibn Abdul Wahhab was an 18th-century scholar not a 13th-cent. scholar. He was specifically concerned with practices which had developed in the central Arabian Peninsula which he thought were innovations or reversions to pre-Muhammad Beduin customs. His life and work were closely connected to the al-Saudi tribe and is part of the history of Saudi Arabia. The Wiki Wahabbi article, as of 5 August 2009, is a mess. Merging it here would ruin this article, which seems pretty good. All it needs is a few references. The section on the different schools of jurisprudence is not relevant but is very interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.79.137 ( talk) 19:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Beliefs are same.Founders are Same.Ideological Scholars are Same.Place of Origin is same.Present Institutions are Same.present activities are same.The difference is of Just name.Neutral Scholars and People Uses Wahabism while salafism is Used by the Followers of this Movement.
so it must not be removed from this cat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zikrullah ( talk • contribs) 04:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
lol true say most of thestuff on this page is made up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.106.152 ( talk) 09:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
People like Rashid Rida are not even Salafi. I dont even know why they are included in the Salafi page on Wikipedia. The Salafis claim to be Salafi, and also, groups like the Mulims Brotherhood (MB) and al-Qaeda often claim to be Salafi (which is wrong of them to do so). I've never known Usama bin Laden to given dawah to non-Muslims, him and his followers only try to kill them. And this is wrong and wrong has got nothing to do with Salafiyyah. These groups who falsely claim to be Salafi are trying to confuse the people of the world. To find the reality, why not ask a real Salafi, instead of someone who is a Sufi or Shia or extremist or a non-Muslims (all of these groups of people dont even knwo about what is happening. Why should be comment? Why should they write and reference their bogus books and beliefs about the Salafis on the Salafis? This is clearly wrong. ~~~~msaqib2~~~~. 00:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
lol that true rather then critising us they should listen to a lecture on lieing — 10:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.106.152 ( talk)
I strongly recomend the removal of Da'i al-Islam Shahal as there is nothing apparent to determine he being Salafy and also being a Scholar. Also, a proper name would appropriate. I have corresponded with the one who added this name, but he was unable to produce anything to warrant the addition of this individual to the list of Salafies, just a newspaper article with a picture of this individual. The only Salafy I am aware of in Lebanon is Ahmad Fuad Zumarlee - although I do not intend that as an exclusive list. Supertouch ( talk) 17:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Salafism in Lebanon was founded by Da'ie al-Islam al-Shahal, here is an interview with him on al-Jazeera. [1] Ahmad2099 ( talk) 07:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Muhsin Khan is not an Afghan. He is a Punjabi of Pashtun descent. To call him Afghan would be like calling Imran Khan an Afghan since he is also a Punjabi Pashtun. Muhsin Khan was born in Kasur, Punjab province of Pakistan. The Pashtuns migrated here in the time of the Mughal Emperor Akbar in the early 17th century. That was too long ago for those descended from Pashtuns of this time period to be considered technical "Afghans".
"Muhammad Muhsin Khan" should be moved to "Pakistan". There are notable Salafi Afghans who should be placed under "Afghanistan" such as Abdul Rasul Sayyaf of the "Northern Alliance", Jamil al-Rahman of Kunar, and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.136.104.21 ( talk) 18:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Putting a "clarification needed" on the last para in section Muhammad Abduh, Jamal al-Din, Rashid Rida, I would like to know who says what. Being only intermittently visiting religious articles, I'm not qualified to straighten things out in an article where my knowledge is so shallow, but the last sentence of the para is a subjective statement that belongs to someone, and that someone need to be mentioned in the running text in order to fulfill WP:NPOV. ... said: Rursus ( mbork³) 15:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Needs new citation since the old link is dead. Faro0485 ( talk) 21:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Good cleanup, it looks very nice. My only issue is line 36, the statement that most historians point to 'Abduh. "Most" is usually a term equal to majority, i.e., more than 50%. Are you sure that's appropriate if there is a dispute? MezzoMezzo 18:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Man, Leroy, i'm looking forward to editing with you in the future. You're the first person i've seen on here that has actually gotten up and researched something in a library to help edit it. You definatly get my respect for that.
Anyway, for the historical reformer issue, this is what I compiled from reading over what i've researched on my own so far (no summer classes this year, so I got a lot of free time):
Just thought i'd throw that out there as some mind candy. Anyway, this leads in to my suggestion. Because there are claims for the historical first of Salafism for both 'Abduh et al and ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab, I think the middle-of-the-road solution is to avoid adjectives like "most" or "majority".
Originally I was going to edit out the section on 'Abduh entirely as I couldn't find much material on him, but as you showed me he is quite relevant to the subject so that was an extreme position on my part. I'm just trying to avoid another extreme now. You seem to be a straight shooter so honestly i'm more willing than usual to defer on this if you disagree with me, but think about the stuff I posted above. MezzoMezzo 06:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry about your Arabic, mine is terrible. I've actually been helped by two friends of mine here in town that are native speakers, so this is something we've worked on together. We're kind of like the A-Team, except Muslim and with less fighting crime and more eating Cadbury chocolate until we pass out on the floor in front of our laptops at three in the morning. First, for putting those as footnotes. I don't have the time to do so today but tomorrow (Wednesday) I can try to work on it. As for the wording, I am not opposed to "widely shared" as four separate encyclopedias does count as widely shared. My suggestion (just a suggestion for now, we can give it some thought) is to include similar wording for the section on ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab. While two biographies and two history books aren't quite as impressive, I do think it would be good backing for highlighting the historical disagreement, which i'm sure you've read up on on spubs.com. Let me know what you think and i'll see what I can do to help tuning things up tomorrow. MezzoMezzo 19:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, muhammed abduh is not salafi and is very different to what salafis ascribe to today (this article is about the salafi movement of today) also whie oxford may be an authority on many topics, its shcolarship is not respected in islamic studies. You will not hear of any modern day muslim groups refferring to oxford for a fatwa. The main scholarship is either the deobandi movement i india, the salafi movement in saudi arabia and otehr similar movements. This article is about islam and muslims, not about western perception of islam and muslims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.187 ( talk) 14:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
'Regarding Madhabs, we do not folow madhabs because we also consider this to be shirk'
This is extremely extreme! Apparently you are unaware of the fact that many, if not most of the scholars we know consider Salafi ascribed themselves to one of the four Mathaahib?? Ibn al-Salaah was Shafi'i and al-Thahabee, clearly a Salafi, said of him in Tathkirah al-Huffaath, kaan Salafiyyaan - he was Salafi??? al-Thahabe himself was Shafi'i, as was Ibn Katheer, al-Nawawee, Ibn Hajr, and al-Mizzee. Ibn Taymiiyah, Ibn al-Qayyim, Ibn Rajab and Muhammad ibn 'Abdil Wahhaab were Hanbali - the latter two actually authored books in Hanbali fiqh. Ibn al-'Arabee, Ibn 'Abd il-Barr and al-Qurtubee were all Maliki. Al-Tahaawee, Ibn Abee al-'Izz and al-Zaila'i were Hanafi - as was al-Albaanee in the first part of his life. Ibn Taymiyyah said that in extreme cases blind following could result in one's disbelief, but not always. And lastly, and most improtantly, who do you think you are, say 'we' as though you speak for other than yourself. And to make such an unprecedented statement without any reference? Apparently you didn't bother to study before speaking. Supertouch ( talk) 23:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi I posted that in great ignorance, since then I have studied the salafi manhaj a lot more and can confirm that following a madhab is not cosidered shirk. Afwaan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.187 ( talk) 14:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
"Salafism differs from the earlier contemporary Islamic revival movements of the 1970s and 1980s commonly referred to as Islamism, in that (at least many) Salafis reject not only Western ideologies such as Socialism and Capitalism"
This sentence is problematic.. First, capitalism (private control of the means of production) and socialism (democratic control of these) are economic systems, not ideologies, though both have ideologies based on them, or advocating them. If Salafis consider them to be not really economic systems, but, in fact, ideologies disguised as economic systems, or something like that, the article should make it clear, as it is not obvious. And, second, if Salafis reject both, what economic system do they favor, then? As far as I know, Islamic law, though pre-capitalist, recognizes private property, values honest trade, and makes charity mandatory, so the system that would seem to be in line with that today would be capitalism with a more or less regulated market and a welfare state, I suppose?
And what does it mean to say Salafism rejects concepts like economics? Economics is a science (however shaky it may be), not a concept; and what do they propose to replace economics with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.85.103 ( talk) 14:33, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Is this this an acceptable resource regarding Salafi? Faro0485 ( talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Definitely not. Its highly POV, is not an autheority on the subject and the people known as salafi today do not identify with this type of teaching. This article s supposed to reflect on those who follow the salafi movement today —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.187 ( talk) 14:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
One can easily understand that it's from wahabi PoV.For example,see the title:salafi,only wahabis use to describe themselves.Otherwise,Mainstream Muslims use the use the term najdi/wahabi.The rest article is much worse.
Coercorash Talk Contr. 04:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
This whole article, from start to finish, is a joke. It merely serves to highlight the ultra amateur nature of Wiki when it comes to Islam.
"Salafi is a Sunni Islamic movement....."
Wrong. For two reasons: a basic ignorance of the Arabic language, and the use of the label "movement" with all its modernist connotations. The correct term should be SALAFIYYAH, bluntly translated as salafism.
In the definition of "Salafi" there is totally unsubstantiated statement, thus: "The vast majority of muslim scholars disagree with the contemporary salafist as doing the opposite." This statement has been removed because it is unproven, to say nothing of the appalling grammar.
Next: Typically, adherents of Salafi movements describe themselves as Muwahidoon, Ahle Hadith|Ahl al-Hadith,[6] or Ahl at-Tawheed.[7] Er, wrong again! Salafis describe themselves as Salafis! Bravo to you referring to non-Muslim sources, the usual so-called "experts" in the line of Jason Burke et al (what a joke).
FACT: I have personally emailed the guy who runs globalsecurity.org and corrected him on his wildly inaccurate statements about salafiyyah. The man is so academically bankrupt that rather than doing proper research, he simply cut and pasted parts of my email onto his site!
"From the perspective of Salafis, the history of salafism starts with Muhammad himself,however this is proven to be false." Proven? Proven how? Where? Wrong again! That falsehood has now been expunged.
Rather than presenting something crystal clear, the article merely plunges the reader into a maelstrom of opinions, allegations and idle speculation.
And another thing: the remarks contained in Creed Controversy, above, are nothing but opinionated, erroneous, unsubstantiated drivel. Its author clings to this concept of the "orthodox Sunni majority", as if the majority are correct simply by virtue of their being the majority! This is something which he (she?) has lifted wholesale from democracy. Just to ponder a point, if "Uthaimeen" (sic), or rather, Muhammad ibn Salih al-Uthaymeen, to given him his proper name, claims this or that, where is the reference pointing us to a scholarly work or works?
Buck up Wiki! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.144.0 ( talk) 05:34, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
One of the quotes in this article states that none of the original Salafis ever killed anyone. Denial of atrocities is common to all religions, and is not solely a propensity of Islam. However, the history of early Islam in the Salafi period (and later) is littered with the planned murder of people and of entire settlements in the Hedjaz and elsewhere. Perhaps the most (in)famous is the wholesale slaughter of the Quraish. The history of Islam, like that of Christianity and other religions is one of bloodshed of supposed enemies and of factions within the religion. Historygypsy ( talk) 15:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:External links. To quote: "External links should be used sparingly and kept to a minimum. Wikipedia is not a web directory; there are criteria a link should meet before it is added to an article's External links section... Avoid 'Links intended to promote a site'" Almost all of the sites linked are promotional and non-informative. I browsed through most of them and didn't see anything worth keeping. www.salafipublications.com is the closest thing I could find to an official site, but even it is semi-promotional. Cuñado - Talk 19:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
There is also Salafi Manhaj which has some useful info and translations.
We're talking about salafiyya. Of course any "official website" is going to be self-promoting, as the salafis believe in the most obnoxious form of da'wah ever (personal opinion).
This website chronicles the Rise and Fall of Salafism in America http://www.umarlee.com/rise-fall.html and it's certainly not a flattering view, but it's one worth reading if you want a balanced look at what salafism is. Umm huraira ( talk) 21:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
What is the relation between Ghair Muqallid (gheyr muqallid) and Salafi? My initial impression is that Ghair Muqallid is a subset of Salafi, where the basics of the Quran and hadith are used to evaluate behaviour to determine whether it is ethical or appropriate or not. As such, it promotes thought (reasoned analysis) over authority. It does seem that Ghair Muqallid is sometimes used as a derogatory term? Is this true? I am surprised that this article does not mention Ghair Muqallid when that term redirects here. -- Bejnar ( talk) 16:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Please only list people who qualify as notable under Wikipedia criteria. In general, either the person is already the subject of an article, or they are prominently named in an article (for example, as a member of a movement), or you are getting started on writing that article. If the person's connection to Salafi is not mentioned in their Wikipedia article please include a source citation for the Salafi connection. If they are notable, have no article, but are prominently named in a Wikipedia article, please use a piped link to that article (and section) from their name. If you are inserting a name prefatory to writing the article about a notable person, please cite a source here for notability and for their Salafi connection. Thanks. See in particular Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Lists of people. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:57, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
The article implies that false Muslims arose after three generations at the time of the murder of Uthman, but that murder happened well before three generations had passed away - Uthman died a mere 24 years after Muhammad's death. Something doesn't rhyme here. -- 77.187.35.129 ( talk) 11:42, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
I found this page devoid of any reasonable mentions of current events related to Salafism, or more specifically Salafist jihadism/terrorism. Imho that's an NPOV violation that I tried to correct to give people a more balanced view when they come here looking for information on why someone would murder Italian peace activist Vittorio Arrigoni. Feel free to argue that I have myself violated NPOV, but if you're going to revert the changes I made, please put an NPOV tag on the page so we can get it resolved. Again, I'm not exactly neutral here, but all my edits were well supported by mainstream media sources. If reverts are done without an NPOV tag then I will respond with such a tag. Thank you. Pär Larsson ( talk) 19:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Page is a clear candidate for an NPOV tag imho. I'll work on figuring out the procedures and rules for such and make sure it's done right. Pär Larsson ( talk) 23:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
IMHO this article does a very poor job, especially in its long introduction... it needs to be written in layman terms. Rather than saying it is based on the three pure generations - i suggest explaining what the principles of those three generations were, and doing so in the intro. 84.111.132.40 ( talk) 20:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Muhammad Abduh, Jamal al-Din Afghani, Rashid Rida ane in no way associated with dawa as salafiyah. they have been refuted by salafi scholars time and time again. this is misleading english readers with useless information that is not asssociated with this topic. this mention was on this page for too long and must end. Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida were both soofi and Jamal al-Din Afghani was shia (you can even tell by the black turban he has on his head only worn by shia sayads).
http://al-athariyyah.com/media/pdf/manhaj/the_reality.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.235.255 ( talk) 15:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I moved all the information on China to a new section. It was mislabeled in other sections. Also, the information on China is disproportionate to the information on Salafism in other countries. It probably should be moved to its own article or shortened a little. Also, the Persecution section needs to be added back in with information that actually relates to Persecution because it was only about China previously.
Yes, I did not sign in. But I hope this edit is uncontroversial as I did not change any wording, only placement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.122.185.138 ( talk) 16:38, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The criticism section was certainly overwhelming! Too much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.194.148 ( talk) 18:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Two things
1. The title sounds like a misnomer Salafis are considered to be Islamists albeit a particular grouping. If anything the title should be changed to something like "Salafism Compared to Other Forms of Islamism."
2. "Western concepts like economics, constitutions" doesn't sound correct. Particular concepts that are western in nature within these fields but one might be hard pressed to make the case that they were invented in the Western World. So at the very least there should be citations for the claim.
-- Doctorkc ( talk) 04:33, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree, and made the first change. I added
citation needed tags for the second issue.
Zuky79 ( talk) 07:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
This is a controversial topic. This section contains names such as Abu Hanifah, Sha'fi, Sufyan Thuwri, Hasan Basri and etc. These people are claimed as "elders" by virtually all Sunni Muslim groups and hence do not exclusively belong to Salafi.
Even out of these names such as Sufyan Thawri, Hasan Basri and etc are closely related to Sufism. The point is the list as it stands gives a clearly misleading impression. There is a clear hierarchy as to how different personalities allegedly belong to a particular group. Some names such as Ibn Taymiyah & Abdul Wahab are idetified far more with Salafism than say likes of Abu Hanfia or Sha'fi
1. Either the list should be removed - for all
2. Other groups should be allowed to create similar
3. The list should be hierarchica. {my recommendation}
[I have just signed up - forgive my poor etiquettes]
Mohamin007 ( talk) 21:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed this section; it's replete with problems. The point being made is a good one, but the tone is all wrong and fails to conform with NPOV. The reference to the website appears to be a plug. I reviewed the website for about half an hour, but wasn't able to find anything which specifically supported this point. Someone who's more knowledgeable on the subject than I should try to fix this.
Zuky79 ( talk) 06:54, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi; uninvolved editor, and though had heard of the oppositional schools of kalam and Salaf, but could not figure out the Salafi jihadism section. Problem is that while it is obvious that not all Salafi are jihadists (just as the Kingdom of Saud is Wahabi, but jihadists are a fringe group in that country), the article leaves me confused as to whether jihadists THEMSELVES adopt the term. It is pretty clear that mainstream Salafis reject the extremists, but, for instance, many Al-Quaeda self-identify as Wahabi, not sure whether the tag is one APPLIED by others TO a group of jihadists or if jihadists adopt the designation.-- Anonymous209.6 ( talk) 13:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Looking from the article, it is pretty clear from even the certain usage of words that the idea behind Salafism is "disputed". At least that is case with the understandings of those who have been editing the article. To put it frankly, Salafism is best compared to Protestanism. The reason Salafiyya calls to follow the "salaf" (first three generations), is because of the rejection of Taqlid. In other words, just as Protestants reject the Catholic and Orthodox Church hierarchies, so too do Salafis reject Madhab. The idea of following a madhab is what is known as Taqlid, and one who does so is a "Muqallid", and one who rejects such is a "Ghair-Muqallid".
So a Protestant would say that, to be a true Christian you need to read the Bible for yourself and not what the Church says. A Salafi would say the same with regards to the Quran and Salaf, as opposed to what a certain Madhab says. Salafi Jihadism can also be compared to Protestanism if one merely looks at the European Wars of Religion, where the early Protestants took up arms against their rulers who were of traditional (Catholic) church faith. 108.14.176.32 ( talk) 10:32, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
First of all;
Two references that were both relevant to the text were removed;
شرف أصحاب الحديث (The Noble Status of the People of Hadeeth, al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi
cite web url= http://islameye.com/%D8%AD%D9%83%D9%85-%D9%82%D9%88%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7-%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%81%D9%89-%D9%84%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%89%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%89-t4699s150.html%7Ctitle= حكم قول انا سلفي (The Ruling On Saying "I am Salafi", Shaikh al-Albani|publisher= islameye.com|date= |accessdate= 10/12/2010
The line explaining the theological school of the Salafi movement was removed and replaced with inadequate diatribe;
This was followed by insertion of a large bulk of text being mainly empty rhetoric and soap boxing against the Salafi movement the article aims to address (and not "attack", as one might understand from the following text);
This is a straw-man argument since its chief claim is a fabrication, the rejection of madh'habs is complete fiction and contradicts other parts of the article that define Salafism as a movement or Daw`ah to return to the original spirit of Islam and evidently not a fiqh identity. Most Salafis do in fact follow a madh'hab, such as the late Sheikh Ibn Baz rahimahullah the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia who was a Hanbali jurist. The highest figure associated with the Salafi movement Sheikk ul Islam of the Hanbali Madh'hab was Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah, Sheikh Ibn Abdul Wahhab rahimahullah was Hanbali and never claimed to represent in fiqh anything other than traditional Hanbali fiqh, the issue he addressed and that which Salafism addresses isn't regarding fiqh par se it is the removal of innovation in Islam and reviving the creed and practice of the early Salaf, including that of the four Imams of the madha'hib may Allah be pleased with them and have mercy on them.
The references given are;
- Don't want to spend too much time on these but simply (a.) they don't address the claims in the edit (b.) they are all from one source (c.) they don't address the claims in the edit (d.) Oh yeah did I mention that they don't address the claims in the edit - they are interesting reads and point to an idealistic concept of Aqeedah, my suggestion is they can be added to further general reading unless one actually uses as a source and doesn't chuck in a link or two simply to farce referencing :)
From the text itself; these are very, very weak arguments and the accusations can be broken down very easily, first off;
1. The only Hanbali scholar quoted as being the kind of "Athari" (who in fact differed in his theological understanding of the siffat of Allah) who refuted the other Athari Hanbalis as being close to having an anthropomorphic understanding was Ibn al Jawzi rahimahullah who is consistently quoted repeatedly by those who have a grudge against the salafi movement; however they fail to understand that Ibn Al-Jawzi rahimahullah was also widely famous across the Islamic world for his unmatched refutations of the Asha'rites and he is still referred to till today. He was refuted by the majority of Hanbali scholars with regards to his understanding in this matter of creed though he was upheld in his refutation of the deviant groups wa Allahu alim through the ages and this was a mistake on his part may Allah forgive him for his mistakes and raise him in his reward and place in the hereafter; he never did represent the Hanbali school in creed and wasn't highly regarded for his own theological viewpoints by other Hanbali scholars & there are many, many sources that can prove this - however the typical teenage internet surfer won't know this when he starts reading anti-Salafi orientated websites that have a hatred for those who disagree with them and use misinformation to mislead people - in one sense you can call this academic fraud.
2. Secondly, Al-Aqidah al-Tahawiyyah you will be pleased to know that I was the one who created the page ;) is in fact affirmed as being one of the key scriptures in Athari theology whom the "Salafis" ascribe themselves to. In fact every single Sunni movement ascribes themselves to the text since it discusses the essential core points in creed and doesn't delve into issues of the Sifaat of Allah, the authour clearly negates that Allah is confined in space, that He is contained in the six directions or that He has limbs or body parts (far is He exalted from the confines of His own creation) - The Athari school affirms this and in reality affimrs that Allah is "fi sama" or Above (uloww) the Heavens, that He is transcendent by His self yet imminent by His Knowledge, that He is not divided into body parts and Limbs but He has the Sifaat of His noble Hands and Face which are not anything like from the creation, not limbs or anything of the like that He has created far exalted is He from such but that He has mentioned this in the Qur`an and we affirm this without speculation or delving into the reality of His siffat if you understand this wa Allahu alim, only Allah knows best.
3. The misunderstanding here, one which Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah addressed hundreds of years ago, is that Atharism is anthropomorphism where in fact it is furthest from being such. The Sifaat or attributes of Allah ARE AFFIRMED on their APPARENT (Dhaahir) in MEANING however their MODALITY is NEGATED and tafweedh is done relating it to Allah alone. Whereas the Atharism you CLAIM to be true is TAFWEEDH (relating to Allah alone) in MEANING AND MODALITY which leaves one to ask why did Rasul Allah peace and blessings be upon him relate the words to us and why would Allah even mention and reveal the Qur`an to humanity with words which have no meaning? Subhan Allah.
Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah in his scholarly work Al-Aqidah Al-Waasitiyyah refutes the stance of the Mushabbihah (those who liken the creation with God: anthropomorphism) and those who deny, negate, and resort to allegorical/metaphorical interpretations of the Divine Names and Attributes. He contends that the methodology of the Salaf is to take the middle path between the extremes of anthropomorphism and negation/distortion. He further states that salaf affirmed all the Names and Attributes of God without tashbih (establishing likeness), takyeef (speculating as to "how" they are manifested in the divine), ta'teel (negating/denying their apparent meaning) and without ta'weel (giving it secondary/symbolic meaning which is different from the apparent meaning)
The rules in affirming are such that we Affirm the sifaat of Allah that He is All Hearing, All Knowing without likening any of His Sifaat to the creation, His Hearing is unlike the creation, we do not say how His Hearing is nor negate that the apparent meaning of All Hearing or saying that it's meaning is something else; the same with any of the other Sifaat Allah mentioned in the Qur`an or authentic Hadeeth.
The Sifaat of Allah are affirmed;
This is exactly what Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah wrote of in creed, this is what he addressed, this is what the Hanabila have followed as their Aqeedah wa Allahu alim.
What makes it even worse is that you quote Suhiab Webb who he himself says he is Athari and HE HIMSELF STATES;
"The most important Athari text is the Tahawiyah, then the introduction to Aqidah found in the Epistle of Abi Zaid al-Qayrawani, the Lum’a of Imam al-Maqdasi, the works of Ibn Taymiyah and so on. I would also strongly encourage one to read Imam Hassan al-Banna’s Epistle on Aqida and the recent work of Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi "The differences between the creed of the salaf and the creed of the khalaf.""
All of this is "Salafi" literature and it all contains the same exact methodology in creed wa Allahu alim.
What it boils down to is what is meant by the Salafi movement, in reality I personally do not advocate the term Salafi, I believe it is a non-nonsensical term that suggests partisanship where in fact the reality is that Orthodox Sunni Muslims who call to follow the methodology of the pious predecessors in terms of Creed and Fiqh are labelled with this term and associated with horrible innovates that either call to hatred or sectarianism or killing innocents which is in total contrast to the way of the salaf and is in contrast to the Shariah.
In fact a true person who follows the Salaf is an Orthodox Sunni that follows any one of the four Madha`hib generally, be it the classical opinions or those of the respected Mujtahids, and follows the creed of the Salaf and the manners of the Salaf and so on wa Allahu alim. There is no need to hurl insults and spread misinformation simply because you are insecure in what you follow, all I am saying is that the Qur`an and Sunnah and understanding of the Salafus saalih is far supreme that any lies or deceit used to call people to innovation.
Jazakum Allahu khair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sakimonk ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
The section on earlier scholars considerd reference points by the modern-day Salafist movement seems a bit odd. Many of the people listed there are also used as reference points by other Sunni Islamic movements, and by Sunnis unaffiliated with any movement. I think for the sake of clarity, the list shold only include individuals who specifically used the term "salafi" or "we follow as-salaf as-salih." In the same sense, we could go to other Sunni movements such as Sufis or the Muslim Brotherhood and they would include almost the same exact list. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 04:21, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Salafi Template is added to the Page to maintain its neutrality to readers.Salafism as a movement should have this template much earlier.Editors can suggest any improvements. Sunnibarelvi ( talk) 21:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Where as Salafi movement opposes this tradition of Taqlid and focused on relying directly on the basic sources of Islam. Sunnibarelvi ( talk) 14:07, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I am proposing that Salafi Jehadism should have been included in the Article. Salafist jihadism-Salafist jihadism is a jihadist movement among Salafi Muslims. The term was coined by scholar Gilles Kepel [1] [2] to describe Salafi who became interested in violent jihad during the mid-1990s. Practitioners are often referred to as Salafi jihadis or Salafi jihadists. Another definition of Salafi jihadism, offered by Mohammed M. Hafez, is an "extreme form of Sunni Islamism that rejects democracy and Shia rule." Hafez distinguished them from apolitical and conservative Salafi scholars (such as Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani, Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen, Abd al-Aziz ibn Abd Allah ibn Baaz and Abdul-Azeez ibn Abdullaah Aal ash-Shaikh), but also from the sahwa movement associated with Salman al-Ouda or Safar Al-Hawali. [3]. Shabiha ( talk) 19:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
i think there should be two separate articles..one for the "salafi movement" & the other for first three generations. Baboon43 ( talk) 20:29, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
This heading was created, because a later section goes through set of edits, and having references from previous edit discussions mixed in with it is confusion.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:30, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
BLivesey
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Can User:Shabiha explain why this, this and this aren't breaches of WP:CANVASS? The posts to Baboon43 and BoogaLouie are especially problematic. DeCausa ( talk) 23:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Should not third party ,neutral and verifiable sources support the Article ? Shabiha ( talk) 22:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Salafi moved to Salafi movement and Wahhabi moved to Wahhabi movement. No consensus on whether Ibadi should be moved and I'd recommend a new RM that focuses solely on that article. Jenks24 ( talk) 10:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
– Article titles should be nouns, not adjectives. Even if the current titles are taken as nouns, they refer to individuals, not each sect. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 16:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC) Article editor ( talk) 07:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The Salafi "infobox" doesn't appear to be editable. Can someone make a proper infobox with the info there? David O. Johnson ( talk) 06:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The Asalah and Shabab organzations in the "infobox" presumably are supposed to link to the pages for those political parties, but they link to the wrong pages. Once the format is cleaned up, that should be fixed. David O. Johnson ( talk) 06:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I figured out how to get to the template: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Salafi
It might be easier just to make it an infobox though. David O. Johnson ( talk) 07:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it's necessary; I've figured out how to edit the template, so I will leave the template as it is. Thanks for the suggestion. David O. Johnson ( talk) 06:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
i deleted some contents which were not refrenced.or refrenced to global security.org or poor sources which are reverted.can you tell me please what is the reason behind placing such type of contents in this article.as many contents are wrong among them. Dil e Muslim talk 19:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC) i also added citation template which is also reverted can you discribe please. Dil e Muslim talk 19:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
i believe this article has not highlighted the extreme nationalism behind the wahabi movement..libyan mufti wants to ban women from marrying foreigners. [7] Baboon43 ( talk) 18:27, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
The Article is full of blatant POv.Most of the statements are directed to biased Salafi websites,Publications even some are sourced to dead links and some to forums.I have found some sources directly promoting Salafi view point and that too not in English language but in Arabic. For example-
The article must be directed to third party neutral sources to present a neutral and objective picture of the movement.I have also removed un sourced blatant POV,unnecessary praising and promotion of the movement. Shabiha ( talk) 20:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Let us go through the deletions, and break them into sections. [8] If the editor who made the deletions still feels that individual deletions were merited, please could he/she explain why in each case. It is likely that some of the deletions, once explained, will be accepted by all. But maybe others were mistakes. We need to judge them on their individual merits. I hope that you do not feel that it is too burdensome to explain them individually.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:Toddy1
Dear ,I am much thankful that you have been really helpful in spending your time on these Articles to guide me and making an atmosphere of discussion.My most of the concerns are related to difference between Salaf and Salafi.The bias I complained in most of the sources is that Salafi bias through which they praise salaf in order to deceive or to give an impression to readers that they are from them.This is most biased and non neutral, POV found on Salafi sites.Where as, there is clear history available of this movement on various neutral sites I am objecting Salafi Publications and few other Salafi sites due to this blatant POV.The salafi movement must have information and headings on this 19th century Salafi movement only.The article must start from its own history not by taking the name of old Salaf.I hope u understands.Thanks Read here and here Shabiha ( talk) 00:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
The following was deleted:
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Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
This was changed from:
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Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following was deleted:
It is authentically related from ad-Daaraqutnee that he said: There is nothing more despised by me than kalam. I say: He never entered into kalam nor argumentation. Rather, he was a Salafi. [2]
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This was replaced by:
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following uncited text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? Would it not have been better to have tried to find sources for it? Or to attach "fact" tags? It does not seem to be a controversial statement.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following uncited text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? Would it not have been better to have tried to find sources for it? Or to attach "fact" tags? It does not seem to be a controversial statement.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? The first paragraph is uncited, but does not seem to be a controversial statement. Surely adding "fact tags" would have been better? What is wrong with the second paragraph?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
and replaced with:
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
"We say that suicide operations now, in the present times, all of them are without legislation and all of them are forbidden. It could be that the person who commits it could fall into the category of those who remain in the Hellfire forever, or it could be that he does not remain in the Hellfire forever..." [1]
" ...as for what some people do regarding activities of suicide, tying explosives to themselves and then approaching Unbelievers and detonating them amongst them, then this is a case of suicide, and Allaah¹s refuge is sought. So whoever commits suicide then he will be consigned eternally to Hell-Fire, remaining there forever, as occurs in the hadeeth of the Prophet, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam. (i.e., his, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, saying, " and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, then the iron weapon will remain in his hand, and he will continuously stab himself in his belly with it in the Fire of Hell eternally, forever and ever." Reported by al-Bukhaaree, no. 5778 and Muslim, no. 109, in the Book of Eemaan). Because this person has killed himself and has not benefited Islam. So if he kills himself along with ten, or a hundred, or two hundred other people, then Islam will not benefit by that, since the people will not accept Islam... ... Rather it will probably just make the enemy more determined, and this action will provoke malice and bitterness in his heart to such an extent that he may seek to wreak havoc upon the Muslims. This is what is found from the practice of the Jews with the people of Palestine, so when one of the Palestinian blows himself up and kills six or seven people, then in retaliation they take sixty or more. So this does not produce any benefit for the Muslims, and does not benefit those amongst whose ranks explosives are detonated. So what we hold is that those people who perform these suicide (bombings) have wrongfully committed suicide, and that this necessitates entry into Hell-Fire, and Allah¹s refuge is sought and that this person is not a martyr (shaheed). However if a person has done this based upon misinterpretation, thinking that it is permissible, then we hope that he will be saved from sin, but as for martyrdom being written for him, then no, since he has not taken the path of martyrdom. But whoever performs ijtihaad and errs will receive a single reward (if he is a person qualified to make ijtihaad)." [2]
" ...such an act is never correct because it is a form of killing oneself and Allāh subhanahu wa ta'ala says: < And do not kill yourselves. [Sūrah al-Nisā 4:29] > And the prophet salAllahu 'aleihi wa selim said: < Whoever kills himself by any means, he will be punished by it on the Day of Resurrection.” [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 670] > The person should rather strive and seek to guide them and if fighting is legalized and legislated, then he fights alongside the Muslims. If he’s then killed in this way, then Allāh is praised. But as for killing himself by booby-trapping his body with explosives, thereby killing others and himself, this is wrong and completely impermissible. Rather, he should fight with the Muslims only when fighting is legitimately legislated. As for the [suicidal] actions of (some of) the Palestinians, they are wrong and produce no benefit. Instead, it is compulsory upon them to call to Allāh by teaching, guiding, and advising and not by such actions as these." [3]
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
If islamagainstextremism website is too biased, can we at least quote the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia condemning violence in this news article by Arabnews.com?
http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/grand-mufti-denounces-violence-against-embassies — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.104.9.148 (
talk)
05:52, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
The following uncited text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? Would it not have been better to have tried to find sources for it? Or to attach "fact" tags? It does not seem to be a controversial statement.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Shabiha hasn't edited this page for 3 days now and all of the above subsections (with the exception of the first one) has outstanding points made by others awaiting responses from Shabiha. Unless Shabiha re-engages and responds properly, I think consideration needs to be given to reverting some or all of the deletions (with whatever tweaks and fact tags that have been discussed added) DeCausa ( talk) 12:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Content seems to be mostly unrelated to the main article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.13.220 ( talk) 18:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
salafism has alot to do with islam, people have mixed up views, the text bellow is describing not salafism but sufism, which is another sect of sunni in islam. people who write this comment have a wrong method of thinking, as you can see he claims to talk to 1 salaf muslim and stereotypes to them all. this method of thinking, if everyone had this they would claim all muslims are terrorists.
salafism go on one strong belief and thats to only take information with evidence. This means taking information from hadith which are authentic and quran. The prophet (saws) said to his wife verily for you i am a salif, salafi means piest. the sahaba are sometimes refered to as the salif, so this individual who wrote these comments should not talk without information.
Salafiism includes several non-classical views, that are implicitly prohibited in Qur'an and Sahih Hadith (ALL SALAFIS I HAVE MET SUBSCRIBE TO THESE BELIEFS):
- Employing a "Piir", (GRAVE WORSHIPPERs, HARAM ACCORDING TO QURAN) to pray for you, in exchange for money. - The justification of acts such as the London 7/7 bombings, WHICH IS ALSO HARAM, (QURAN; FIGHT ONLY COMBATANTS) - The theft of items from non-Muslims, WHICH IS ALSO HARAM. - They also buy and sell Drugs, Narcotics and Alcohol, they say it is OK to sell these to non-Muslims, AGAIN HARAM. (QUazzarn) - AND MUCH MORE.
They are not Muslims in my opinion, and the opinion of Sheikhs that follow no Bid'a (Innovated) group or sect.
I hope I have not offended anyone, because I said the Salafis I HAVE MET!
--- can I just say how ridiculous this persons comment is. You are saying that in salafi Islam that we think it is halal to sell drugs and worship graves? you clearly have no idea who the slaafi are and you are spreading hate propoganda and speaking when you have no knowledge which is completely haram btw and is how rumours get started.
The salafi are the least likely to worship graves out of ALL the islamic groups and you'd know that if you read Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahab's "Book of Islamic Monotheism" or "Kitab at Tauheed" but you clearly know very little of this situation know offence. Speaking without knowledge is very dangerous and i advise you to fear allah. To say all these things about salafism from the stereotype of one person. shows your method of thinking is very bad. Individuals like this with this method of thinking would assume all muslims are terrorists, from that minority which do extremism (blowing them selfs up)which is haram and will repeatedly do this in the hell fire.
I can tell you truth regarding salaafi if you are interested.
Salaafi and Wahabi are the same but Wahabbi is a derogatory term. The term Wahabbi comes from the scholar Sheik ul Islam Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahhab and is taught by the salafi as a great way of understanding SHIRK (such as worshipping graves which is why this comment is so ridiculous because salaafi always talk about everything being bid'ah (innovated) or shirk (worshipping other than Allah). We do not even wear any sort of qur'an around our necks because we consider this shirk as we should only put out faith in Allah and not created objects and we dislike the new things introduced into Islam after the first three generations of Muslims because the Prophet (pease be upon him) said many things on this sibject that leads us to believe innovations are always a misguidance. Ia m happy to put the salafi POV accross but not if it gets deleted by sufi types the second I create it because people get political about it and dont wnat other people viewing anything that might change their oppinion. I am giving these facts to you straight up but no doubt a sufi or other sects opposed to salafism would like to put a spin on this article to put people off it and to give us a bad reputation. I first came to Islam and met some sufi before going to salafism and they call nayone who is not sufi a "Wahabi" who apparently promotes terrorism and is apparently "evil" because we dont like your bid'ah and shirk.
Regarding Madhabs, we do not folow madhabs because we consider this to be taqleed (blind following) although we completely respect the four great imams who began the madhabs and are more opposed to the staunch supporting of a particulraly madhab, even when the daleel (evidence from teh qur'an and sunnah) is much stronger than the oppinion of a particular madhab. We also dont aggree with the actual labels used for each individual madhab. there is no issue with people praying differently, we completely accept VALID difference of oppinions as long as proof can be found in teh two authentic sources and if someone sprayer or any other fiqh issue appears to adhere to any particular madhab, this is no issue as long as the individual does not label themselves with that madhab and does not hold onto it so much that they refuse to do anything the madhab doesn't sanction. We follow the sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him) and commands from teh qur'an. the four greta imams were great scholars and we can look at their analysis of teh qur'an and sunnah but not follow on eof them blindly but try to find teh truth by finding the true belief and practice of the prophet Muhammed SAW. This is the salafi belief. We believe that we must follow the madhab of the prophet SAW and not anyone else. Hope this clarify's things. If you need any fiurther info from a salafi ask away, if you are interested only in pushing your POV then go ahead, Allah decides who is guided and you will not misguide someone by misleading or biased info on a wiki sight. With regards to terrorism, what is terrorism? Killing innocent civilians? then is america and Israel terrorists? We dont believe in harming non combatants but we do believe in teh right to defend yourself from foreign invaders as is the case in occupied palestine and afghanistan and iraq etc. this is honest salafi belief, no messin, no sugar coating, no bias, straight up from a salafi. Hope it helps. Assalamu Alaykum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.253.19 ( talk) 22:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Although I have previously responded to these sophmoric, unreferenced claims regarding the issue of taking a Math'hab. Ibn Taymiyyah, who hopefully Shaikh User:86.139.253.19 has at least heard of, said that the one who is incapable of understanding the ruling that Allah or his Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alaihi wa Salam) have given in a particular matter, than this person is "to be praised and rewarded and not dispraised or punished" for sollowing a person of knowledge so long as the opinion of other than that person does not seem stronger (Majmoo' al-Fataawaa 20-225). This clearly illustrated the moderation with which a Muslim, a Salafi, deals with matters such as these: not calling for absolute taqleed as the one who falsely attributed the statement "Whoever blindly follows a scholar meets Allah safely" nor calling for unqualified people to give their own rulings. Supertouch ( talk) 12:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Assalamu alaykum brother, would a polite salaam not be appropraite for your brother in islam?
Yes of course I have herad of Ibn Taimya (RA) Brother im a little confused as to what the issue is? A bunch of sufi's were talking on behalf of the salaafi's and you consdier them more qualified than me? Considering somoene was accusing teh salaafi of worshipping graves? Aoudhu Billah. Of course I am not an authority to talk on behalf of all salaafi, I am simply passing on teh correct manhaj of the salaafya because of teh gross ignorance of the people on this website. Of course if you can get a member of the ulema of saudia to register with wikipedia and speak on our behalf I will certainly step down. if you wish to correct anything I said regarding teh salaafi manhaj then I will certainly check up on your corrcetions. But the Salaafi manhaj is one so when I say "we" there is no issue with this unless I state something incorrectly in which case, point out my mistake and inshallah I will make taubah.
And where on earth did yo get arm chair Jihaadi from brother, I am no Jihaadi, the salaafi ulema have pronounced that there is no jihad to be faught on the planet right now and that the best thing for any muslim to do is to return to the sunnah and then call others to the sunnah after him (first by his family, then the community etc etc and working outwards).
Im sorry you took offence to something I said but I think considering there were no other salaafi's speaking out I felt the need to step up and defend all this garbage that people were saying about teh salaafi. WOudl you rather I stay quiet and everyone can see how apparently we sell drugs and support 9/11? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.211.126 ( talk) 20:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
by the way my username is Ahmed khan, sorry sometimes I post without logging in as Im using public computers. I go to masjid as salifyah in birmingham and am involved in the salaafi dawah in the wouth west alhamdulillah. Its not difficult to wirte a non biased article without swaying either way and sticking to the facts so I see no reason why people make such difficult work of this, they should stop seeing it as a place for dawah. Also please visit the wahhabi page and contribute their. the article is hideously biased and so we need to work on making it neutral inshallah because a lie against Allah is the worst lie and we must correct it inshallah.
ahmedKhan ( talk) 21:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Note: Ahmed, please don't take it out on Sufis (as you have done here and elsewhere, both in talk and article edits) simply because you are ideologically opposed to the Sufi ways. Having studied the Sufis since 1986, I could take offense ... but I won't. That is not what I am here for. You need to leave the donkey at the door before you enter. Esowteric+ Talk 21:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Supertouch ( talk) 12:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
One sentence in the article should be reworded or changed: "Salafism may have more appeal than secularism by appropriating secularisms' traditional role of defending the socially and politically weak against the powerful.[43]" This sentence is important, because it depicts the reasoning behind the political choices of Salafis, and partially explains why Eastern Muslims, specifically Salafis, don't except what the West hopes they will accept: secularism. Still, this sentence describes secularism as having the "traditional role of defending the socially and politically weak against the powerful." Both Secularism and Salafism defend the weak against the powerful, but secularism isn't the originator of such policies, and is thus, not the bearer of the "traditional role." Only in the eyes of a Westerner does Secularism bear the traditional role of defending the weak against the powerful. Before either of these philosophies emerged, Islam and Christianity specifically defended the weak against the powerful. Indeed this was a specific political goal of these two religions. It must be remembered that both of these religions declare themselves as "the religion of the poor." Secularism is a movement that, like many others, traces its roots to the philosophers of greeks, but secular societies never emerged until far later, and the true intellectual founders of Secularism were Age of Enlightenment thinkers. Secularism is a new modern basis for a state, and does not hold the "traditional role of defending the socially and politically weak against the powerful." I do not have access to the citation, but I would like to see its context. Additionally, if the citation is solid, I hope that the article would mention that neither Salafis nor secularist can claim the traditional role of defending the weak. This should be especially clear with regards to the locations that Salafis are prevalent. Most of the societies where Salafis are present in great numbers are not or have never been secular. -- 98.209.237.136 ( talk) 22:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
In favor -- I suggest merging Wahhabism into this article and redirecting. I also suggest that the name be moved to Salafism, since Salafi is an adjective and shouldn't be used as an article title if possible. 170.160.9.3 00:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose -- I don't think anybody here understands the term Salafi or wahaabi. Anybody who knows arabic linguistically knows the term salafi means those people are from the salaf meaning those who adhere to their understanding. Wahaabi is a name given to those salafis led by Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahaab; who were dedicated to removing lewd practices within the islamic world such as grave worshipping, which none of the companions were reported to have done. It has now become a derogatory name thrown at those salafi's by non-muslims and opposing muslims alike —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.176.60 ( talk) 11:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Oppose -- I don't think that both should be merged,as salafis are pure muslims following nothing but Quran and Sahi Hadith, the name salafi given is because salafi derives from the word salaf (salf sualeheen), its better we call ourselves Muslims. 10 Oct 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atif79 ( talk • contribs) 11:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
OPPOSE Ibn Abdul Wahhab was an 18th-century scholar not a 13th-cent. scholar. He was specifically concerned with practices which had developed in the central Arabian Peninsula which he thought were innovations or reversions to pre-Muhammad Beduin customs. His life and work were closely connected to the al-Saudi tribe and is part of the history of Saudi Arabia. The Wiki Wahabbi article, as of 5 August 2009, is a mess. Merging it here would ruin this article, which seems pretty good. All it needs is a few references. The section on the different schools of jurisprudence is not relevant but is very interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.79.137 ( talk) 19:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Beliefs are same.Founders are Same.Ideological Scholars are Same.Place of Origin is same.Present Institutions are Same.present activities are same.The difference is of Just name.Neutral Scholars and People Uses Wahabism while salafism is Used by the Followers of this Movement.
so it must not be removed from this cat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zikrullah ( talk • contribs) 04:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
lol true say most of thestuff on this page is made up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.106.152 ( talk) 09:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
People like Rashid Rida are not even Salafi. I dont even know why they are included in the Salafi page on Wikipedia. The Salafis claim to be Salafi, and also, groups like the Mulims Brotherhood (MB) and al-Qaeda often claim to be Salafi (which is wrong of them to do so). I've never known Usama bin Laden to given dawah to non-Muslims, him and his followers only try to kill them. And this is wrong and wrong has got nothing to do with Salafiyyah. These groups who falsely claim to be Salafi are trying to confuse the people of the world. To find the reality, why not ask a real Salafi, instead of someone who is a Sufi or Shia or extremist or a non-Muslims (all of these groups of people dont even knwo about what is happening. Why should be comment? Why should they write and reference their bogus books and beliefs about the Salafis on the Salafis? This is clearly wrong. ~~~~msaqib2~~~~. 00:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
lol that true rather then critising us they should listen to a lecture on lieing — 10:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.106.152 ( talk)
I strongly recomend the removal of Da'i al-Islam Shahal as there is nothing apparent to determine he being Salafy and also being a Scholar. Also, a proper name would appropriate. I have corresponded with the one who added this name, but he was unable to produce anything to warrant the addition of this individual to the list of Salafies, just a newspaper article with a picture of this individual. The only Salafy I am aware of in Lebanon is Ahmad Fuad Zumarlee - although I do not intend that as an exclusive list. Supertouch ( talk) 17:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Salafism in Lebanon was founded by Da'ie al-Islam al-Shahal, here is an interview with him on al-Jazeera. [1] Ahmad2099 ( talk) 07:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Muhsin Khan is not an Afghan. He is a Punjabi of Pashtun descent. To call him Afghan would be like calling Imran Khan an Afghan since he is also a Punjabi Pashtun. Muhsin Khan was born in Kasur, Punjab province of Pakistan. The Pashtuns migrated here in the time of the Mughal Emperor Akbar in the early 17th century. That was too long ago for those descended from Pashtuns of this time period to be considered technical "Afghans".
"Muhammad Muhsin Khan" should be moved to "Pakistan". There are notable Salafi Afghans who should be placed under "Afghanistan" such as Abdul Rasul Sayyaf of the "Northern Alliance", Jamil al-Rahman of Kunar, and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.136.104.21 ( talk) 18:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Putting a "clarification needed" on the last para in section Muhammad Abduh, Jamal al-Din, Rashid Rida, I would like to know who says what. Being only intermittently visiting religious articles, I'm not qualified to straighten things out in an article where my knowledge is so shallow, but the last sentence of the para is a subjective statement that belongs to someone, and that someone need to be mentioned in the running text in order to fulfill WP:NPOV. ... said: Rursus ( mbork³) 15:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Needs new citation since the old link is dead. Faro0485 ( talk) 21:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Good cleanup, it looks very nice. My only issue is line 36, the statement that most historians point to 'Abduh. "Most" is usually a term equal to majority, i.e., more than 50%. Are you sure that's appropriate if there is a dispute? MezzoMezzo 18:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Man, Leroy, i'm looking forward to editing with you in the future. You're the first person i've seen on here that has actually gotten up and researched something in a library to help edit it. You definatly get my respect for that.
Anyway, for the historical reformer issue, this is what I compiled from reading over what i've researched on my own so far (no summer classes this year, so I got a lot of free time):
Just thought i'd throw that out there as some mind candy. Anyway, this leads in to my suggestion. Because there are claims for the historical first of Salafism for both 'Abduh et al and ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab, I think the middle-of-the-road solution is to avoid adjectives like "most" or "majority".
Originally I was going to edit out the section on 'Abduh entirely as I couldn't find much material on him, but as you showed me he is quite relevant to the subject so that was an extreme position on my part. I'm just trying to avoid another extreme now. You seem to be a straight shooter so honestly i'm more willing than usual to defer on this if you disagree with me, but think about the stuff I posted above. MezzoMezzo 06:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry about your Arabic, mine is terrible. I've actually been helped by two friends of mine here in town that are native speakers, so this is something we've worked on together. We're kind of like the A-Team, except Muslim and with less fighting crime and more eating Cadbury chocolate until we pass out on the floor in front of our laptops at three in the morning. First, for putting those as footnotes. I don't have the time to do so today but tomorrow (Wednesday) I can try to work on it. As for the wording, I am not opposed to "widely shared" as four separate encyclopedias does count as widely shared. My suggestion (just a suggestion for now, we can give it some thought) is to include similar wording for the section on ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab. While two biographies and two history books aren't quite as impressive, I do think it would be good backing for highlighting the historical disagreement, which i'm sure you've read up on on spubs.com. Let me know what you think and i'll see what I can do to help tuning things up tomorrow. MezzoMezzo 19:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, muhammed abduh is not salafi and is very different to what salafis ascribe to today (this article is about the salafi movement of today) also whie oxford may be an authority on many topics, its shcolarship is not respected in islamic studies. You will not hear of any modern day muslim groups refferring to oxford for a fatwa. The main scholarship is either the deobandi movement i india, the salafi movement in saudi arabia and otehr similar movements. This article is about islam and muslims, not about western perception of islam and muslims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.187 ( talk) 14:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
'Regarding Madhabs, we do not folow madhabs because we also consider this to be shirk'
This is extremely extreme! Apparently you are unaware of the fact that many, if not most of the scholars we know consider Salafi ascribed themselves to one of the four Mathaahib?? Ibn al-Salaah was Shafi'i and al-Thahabee, clearly a Salafi, said of him in Tathkirah al-Huffaath, kaan Salafiyyaan - he was Salafi??? al-Thahabe himself was Shafi'i, as was Ibn Katheer, al-Nawawee, Ibn Hajr, and al-Mizzee. Ibn Taymiiyah, Ibn al-Qayyim, Ibn Rajab and Muhammad ibn 'Abdil Wahhaab were Hanbali - the latter two actually authored books in Hanbali fiqh. Ibn al-'Arabee, Ibn 'Abd il-Barr and al-Qurtubee were all Maliki. Al-Tahaawee, Ibn Abee al-'Izz and al-Zaila'i were Hanafi - as was al-Albaanee in the first part of his life. Ibn Taymiyyah said that in extreme cases blind following could result in one's disbelief, but not always. And lastly, and most improtantly, who do you think you are, say 'we' as though you speak for other than yourself. And to make such an unprecedented statement without any reference? Apparently you didn't bother to study before speaking. Supertouch ( talk) 23:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi I posted that in great ignorance, since then I have studied the salafi manhaj a lot more and can confirm that following a madhab is not cosidered shirk. Afwaan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.187 ( talk) 14:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
"Salafism differs from the earlier contemporary Islamic revival movements of the 1970s and 1980s commonly referred to as Islamism, in that (at least many) Salafis reject not only Western ideologies such as Socialism and Capitalism"
This sentence is problematic.. First, capitalism (private control of the means of production) and socialism (democratic control of these) are economic systems, not ideologies, though both have ideologies based on them, or advocating them. If Salafis consider them to be not really economic systems, but, in fact, ideologies disguised as economic systems, or something like that, the article should make it clear, as it is not obvious. And, second, if Salafis reject both, what economic system do they favor, then? As far as I know, Islamic law, though pre-capitalist, recognizes private property, values honest trade, and makes charity mandatory, so the system that would seem to be in line with that today would be capitalism with a more or less regulated market and a welfare state, I suppose?
And what does it mean to say Salafism rejects concepts like economics? Economics is a science (however shaky it may be), not a concept; and what do they propose to replace economics with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.85.103 ( talk) 14:33, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Is this this an acceptable resource regarding Salafi? Faro0485 ( talk) 00:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Definitely not. Its highly POV, is not an autheority on the subject and the people known as salafi today do not identify with this type of teaching. This article s supposed to reflect on those who follow the salafi movement today —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.27.17.187 ( talk) 14:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
One can easily understand that it's from wahabi PoV.For example,see the title:salafi,only wahabis use to describe themselves.Otherwise,Mainstream Muslims use the use the term najdi/wahabi.The rest article is much worse.
Coercorash Talk Contr. 04:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
This whole article, from start to finish, is a joke. It merely serves to highlight the ultra amateur nature of Wiki when it comes to Islam.
"Salafi is a Sunni Islamic movement....."
Wrong. For two reasons: a basic ignorance of the Arabic language, and the use of the label "movement" with all its modernist connotations. The correct term should be SALAFIYYAH, bluntly translated as salafism.
In the definition of "Salafi" there is totally unsubstantiated statement, thus: "The vast majority of muslim scholars disagree with the contemporary salafist as doing the opposite." This statement has been removed because it is unproven, to say nothing of the appalling grammar.
Next: Typically, adherents of Salafi movements describe themselves as Muwahidoon, Ahle Hadith|Ahl al-Hadith,[6] or Ahl at-Tawheed.[7] Er, wrong again! Salafis describe themselves as Salafis! Bravo to you referring to non-Muslim sources, the usual so-called "experts" in the line of Jason Burke et al (what a joke).
FACT: I have personally emailed the guy who runs globalsecurity.org and corrected him on his wildly inaccurate statements about salafiyyah. The man is so academically bankrupt that rather than doing proper research, he simply cut and pasted parts of my email onto his site!
"From the perspective of Salafis, the history of salafism starts with Muhammad himself,however this is proven to be false." Proven? Proven how? Where? Wrong again! That falsehood has now been expunged.
Rather than presenting something crystal clear, the article merely plunges the reader into a maelstrom of opinions, allegations and idle speculation.
And another thing: the remarks contained in Creed Controversy, above, are nothing but opinionated, erroneous, unsubstantiated drivel. Its author clings to this concept of the "orthodox Sunni majority", as if the majority are correct simply by virtue of their being the majority! This is something which he (she?) has lifted wholesale from democracy. Just to ponder a point, if "Uthaimeen" (sic), or rather, Muhammad ibn Salih al-Uthaymeen, to given him his proper name, claims this or that, where is the reference pointing us to a scholarly work or works?
Buck up Wiki! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.144.0 ( talk) 05:34, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
One of the quotes in this article states that none of the original Salafis ever killed anyone. Denial of atrocities is common to all religions, and is not solely a propensity of Islam. However, the history of early Islam in the Salafi period (and later) is littered with the planned murder of people and of entire settlements in the Hedjaz and elsewhere. Perhaps the most (in)famous is the wholesale slaughter of the Quraish. The history of Islam, like that of Christianity and other religions is one of bloodshed of supposed enemies and of factions within the religion. Historygypsy ( talk) 15:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:External links. To quote: "External links should be used sparingly and kept to a minimum. Wikipedia is not a web directory; there are criteria a link should meet before it is added to an article's External links section... Avoid 'Links intended to promote a site'" Almost all of the sites linked are promotional and non-informative. I browsed through most of them and didn't see anything worth keeping. www.salafipublications.com is the closest thing I could find to an official site, but even it is semi-promotional. Cuñado - Talk 19:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
There is also Salafi Manhaj which has some useful info and translations.
We're talking about salafiyya. Of course any "official website" is going to be self-promoting, as the salafis believe in the most obnoxious form of da'wah ever (personal opinion).
This website chronicles the Rise and Fall of Salafism in America http://www.umarlee.com/rise-fall.html and it's certainly not a flattering view, but it's one worth reading if you want a balanced look at what salafism is. Umm huraira ( talk) 21:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
What is the relation between Ghair Muqallid (gheyr muqallid) and Salafi? My initial impression is that Ghair Muqallid is a subset of Salafi, where the basics of the Quran and hadith are used to evaluate behaviour to determine whether it is ethical or appropriate or not. As such, it promotes thought (reasoned analysis) over authority. It does seem that Ghair Muqallid is sometimes used as a derogatory term? Is this true? I am surprised that this article does not mention Ghair Muqallid when that term redirects here. -- Bejnar ( talk) 16:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Please only list people who qualify as notable under Wikipedia criteria. In general, either the person is already the subject of an article, or they are prominently named in an article (for example, as a member of a movement), or you are getting started on writing that article. If the person's connection to Salafi is not mentioned in their Wikipedia article please include a source citation for the Salafi connection. If they are notable, have no article, but are prominently named in a Wikipedia article, please use a piped link to that article (and section) from their name. If you are inserting a name prefatory to writing the article about a notable person, please cite a source here for notability and for their Salafi connection. Thanks. See in particular Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Lists of people. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:57, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
The article implies that false Muslims arose after three generations at the time of the murder of Uthman, but that murder happened well before three generations had passed away - Uthman died a mere 24 years after Muhammad's death. Something doesn't rhyme here. -- 77.187.35.129 ( talk) 11:42, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
I found this page devoid of any reasonable mentions of current events related to Salafism, or more specifically Salafist jihadism/terrorism. Imho that's an NPOV violation that I tried to correct to give people a more balanced view when they come here looking for information on why someone would murder Italian peace activist Vittorio Arrigoni. Feel free to argue that I have myself violated NPOV, but if you're going to revert the changes I made, please put an NPOV tag on the page so we can get it resolved. Again, I'm not exactly neutral here, but all my edits were well supported by mainstream media sources. If reverts are done without an NPOV tag then I will respond with such a tag. Thank you. Pär Larsson ( talk) 19:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Page is a clear candidate for an NPOV tag imho. I'll work on figuring out the procedures and rules for such and make sure it's done right. Pär Larsson ( talk) 23:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
IMHO this article does a very poor job, especially in its long introduction... it needs to be written in layman terms. Rather than saying it is based on the three pure generations - i suggest explaining what the principles of those three generations were, and doing so in the intro. 84.111.132.40 ( talk) 20:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Muhammad Abduh, Jamal al-Din Afghani, Rashid Rida ane in no way associated with dawa as salafiyah. they have been refuted by salafi scholars time and time again. this is misleading english readers with useless information that is not asssociated with this topic. this mention was on this page for too long and must end. Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida were both soofi and Jamal al-Din Afghani was shia (you can even tell by the black turban he has on his head only worn by shia sayads).
http://al-athariyyah.com/media/pdf/manhaj/the_reality.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.235.255 ( talk) 15:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I moved all the information on China to a new section. It was mislabeled in other sections. Also, the information on China is disproportionate to the information on Salafism in other countries. It probably should be moved to its own article or shortened a little. Also, the Persecution section needs to be added back in with information that actually relates to Persecution because it was only about China previously.
Yes, I did not sign in. But I hope this edit is uncontroversial as I did not change any wording, only placement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.122.185.138 ( talk) 16:38, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The criticism section was certainly overwhelming! Too much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.194.148 ( talk) 18:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Two things
1. The title sounds like a misnomer Salafis are considered to be Islamists albeit a particular grouping. If anything the title should be changed to something like "Salafism Compared to Other Forms of Islamism."
2. "Western concepts like economics, constitutions" doesn't sound correct. Particular concepts that are western in nature within these fields but one might be hard pressed to make the case that they were invented in the Western World. So at the very least there should be citations for the claim.
-- Doctorkc ( talk) 04:33, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree, and made the first change. I added
citation needed tags for the second issue.
Zuky79 ( talk) 07:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
This is a controversial topic. This section contains names such as Abu Hanifah, Sha'fi, Sufyan Thuwri, Hasan Basri and etc. These people are claimed as "elders" by virtually all Sunni Muslim groups and hence do not exclusively belong to Salafi.
Even out of these names such as Sufyan Thawri, Hasan Basri and etc are closely related to Sufism. The point is the list as it stands gives a clearly misleading impression. There is a clear hierarchy as to how different personalities allegedly belong to a particular group. Some names such as Ibn Taymiyah & Abdul Wahab are idetified far more with Salafism than say likes of Abu Hanfia or Sha'fi
1. Either the list should be removed - for all
2. Other groups should be allowed to create similar
3. The list should be hierarchica. {my recommendation}
[I have just signed up - forgive my poor etiquettes]
Mohamin007 ( talk) 21:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed this section; it's replete with problems. The point being made is a good one, but the tone is all wrong and fails to conform with NPOV. The reference to the website appears to be a plug. I reviewed the website for about half an hour, but wasn't able to find anything which specifically supported this point. Someone who's more knowledgeable on the subject than I should try to fix this.
Zuky79 ( talk) 06:54, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi; uninvolved editor, and though had heard of the oppositional schools of kalam and Salaf, but could not figure out the Salafi jihadism section. Problem is that while it is obvious that not all Salafi are jihadists (just as the Kingdom of Saud is Wahabi, but jihadists are a fringe group in that country), the article leaves me confused as to whether jihadists THEMSELVES adopt the term. It is pretty clear that mainstream Salafis reject the extremists, but, for instance, many Al-Quaeda self-identify as Wahabi, not sure whether the tag is one APPLIED by others TO a group of jihadists or if jihadists adopt the designation.-- Anonymous209.6 ( talk) 13:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Looking from the article, it is pretty clear from even the certain usage of words that the idea behind Salafism is "disputed". At least that is case with the understandings of those who have been editing the article. To put it frankly, Salafism is best compared to Protestanism. The reason Salafiyya calls to follow the "salaf" (first three generations), is because of the rejection of Taqlid. In other words, just as Protestants reject the Catholic and Orthodox Church hierarchies, so too do Salafis reject Madhab. The idea of following a madhab is what is known as Taqlid, and one who does so is a "Muqallid", and one who rejects such is a "Ghair-Muqallid".
So a Protestant would say that, to be a true Christian you need to read the Bible for yourself and not what the Church says. A Salafi would say the same with regards to the Quran and Salaf, as opposed to what a certain Madhab says. Salafi Jihadism can also be compared to Protestanism if one merely looks at the European Wars of Religion, where the early Protestants took up arms against their rulers who were of traditional (Catholic) church faith. 108.14.176.32 ( talk) 10:32, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
First of all;
Two references that were both relevant to the text were removed;
شرف أصحاب الحديث (The Noble Status of the People of Hadeeth, al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi
cite web url= http://islameye.com/%D8%AD%D9%83%D9%85-%D9%82%D9%88%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7-%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%81%D9%89-%D9%84%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%89%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%89-t4699s150.html%7Ctitle= حكم قول انا سلفي (The Ruling On Saying "I am Salafi", Shaikh al-Albani|publisher= islameye.com|date= |accessdate= 10/12/2010
The line explaining the theological school of the Salafi movement was removed and replaced with inadequate diatribe;
This was followed by insertion of a large bulk of text being mainly empty rhetoric and soap boxing against the Salafi movement the article aims to address (and not "attack", as one might understand from the following text);
This is a straw-man argument since its chief claim is a fabrication, the rejection of madh'habs is complete fiction and contradicts other parts of the article that define Salafism as a movement or Daw`ah to return to the original spirit of Islam and evidently not a fiqh identity. Most Salafis do in fact follow a madh'hab, such as the late Sheikh Ibn Baz rahimahullah the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia who was a Hanbali jurist. The highest figure associated with the Salafi movement Sheikk ul Islam of the Hanbali Madh'hab was Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah, Sheikh Ibn Abdul Wahhab rahimahullah was Hanbali and never claimed to represent in fiqh anything other than traditional Hanbali fiqh, the issue he addressed and that which Salafism addresses isn't regarding fiqh par se it is the removal of innovation in Islam and reviving the creed and practice of the early Salaf, including that of the four Imams of the madha'hib may Allah be pleased with them and have mercy on them.
The references given are;
- Don't want to spend too much time on these but simply (a.) they don't address the claims in the edit (b.) they are all from one source (c.) they don't address the claims in the edit (d.) Oh yeah did I mention that they don't address the claims in the edit - they are interesting reads and point to an idealistic concept of Aqeedah, my suggestion is they can be added to further general reading unless one actually uses as a source and doesn't chuck in a link or two simply to farce referencing :)
From the text itself; these are very, very weak arguments and the accusations can be broken down very easily, first off;
1. The only Hanbali scholar quoted as being the kind of "Athari" (who in fact differed in his theological understanding of the siffat of Allah) who refuted the other Athari Hanbalis as being close to having an anthropomorphic understanding was Ibn al Jawzi rahimahullah who is consistently quoted repeatedly by those who have a grudge against the salafi movement; however they fail to understand that Ibn Al-Jawzi rahimahullah was also widely famous across the Islamic world for his unmatched refutations of the Asha'rites and he is still referred to till today. He was refuted by the majority of Hanbali scholars with regards to his understanding in this matter of creed though he was upheld in his refutation of the deviant groups wa Allahu alim through the ages and this was a mistake on his part may Allah forgive him for his mistakes and raise him in his reward and place in the hereafter; he never did represent the Hanbali school in creed and wasn't highly regarded for his own theological viewpoints by other Hanbali scholars & there are many, many sources that can prove this - however the typical teenage internet surfer won't know this when he starts reading anti-Salafi orientated websites that have a hatred for those who disagree with them and use misinformation to mislead people - in one sense you can call this academic fraud.
2. Secondly, Al-Aqidah al-Tahawiyyah you will be pleased to know that I was the one who created the page ;) is in fact affirmed as being one of the key scriptures in Athari theology whom the "Salafis" ascribe themselves to. In fact every single Sunni movement ascribes themselves to the text since it discusses the essential core points in creed and doesn't delve into issues of the Sifaat of Allah, the authour clearly negates that Allah is confined in space, that He is contained in the six directions or that He has limbs or body parts (far is He exalted from the confines of His own creation) - The Athari school affirms this and in reality affimrs that Allah is "fi sama" or Above (uloww) the Heavens, that He is transcendent by His self yet imminent by His Knowledge, that He is not divided into body parts and Limbs but He has the Sifaat of His noble Hands and Face which are not anything like from the creation, not limbs or anything of the like that He has created far exalted is He from such but that He has mentioned this in the Qur`an and we affirm this without speculation or delving into the reality of His siffat if you understand this wa Allahu alim, only Allah knows best.
3. The misunderstanding here, one which Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah addressed hundreds of years ago, is that Atharism is anthropomorphism where in fact it is furthest from being such. The Sifaat or attributes of Allah ARE AFFIRMED on their APPARENT (Dhaahir) in MEANING however their MODALITY is NEGATED and tafweedh is done relating it to Allah alone. Whereas the Atharism you CLAIM to be true is TAFWEEDH (relating to Allah alone) in MEANING AND MODALITY which leaves one to ask why did Rasul Allah peace and blessings be upon him relate the words to us and why would Allah even mention and reveal the Qur`an to humanity with words which have no meaning? Subhan Allah.
Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah in his scholarly work Al-Aqidah Al-Waasitiyyah refutes the stance of the Mushabbihah (those who liken the creation with God: anthropomorphism) and those who deny, negate, and resort to allegorical/metaphorical interpretations of the Divine Names and Attributes. He contends that the methodology of the Salaf is to take the middle path between the extremes of anthropomorphism and negation/distortion. He further states that salaf affirmed all the Names and Attributes of God without tashbih (establishing likeness), takyeef (speculating as to "how" they are manifested in the divine), ta'teel (negating/denying their apparent meaning) and without ta'weel (giving it secondary/symbolic meaning which is different from the apparent meaning)
The rules in affirming are such that we Affirm the sifaat of Allah that He is All Hearing, All Knowing without likening any of His Sifaat to the creation, His Hearing is unlike the creation, we do not say how His Hearing is nor negate that the apparent meaning of All Hearing or saying that it's meaning is something else; the same with any of the other Sifaat Allah mentioned in the Qur`an or authentic Hadeeth.
The Sifaat of Allah are affirmed;
This is exactly what Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah wrote of in creed, this is what he addressed, this is what the Hanabila have followed as their Aqeedah wa Allahu alim.
What makes it even worse is that you quote Suhiab Webb who he himself says he is Athari and HE HIMSELF STATES;
"The most important Athari text is the Tahawiyah, then the introduction to Aqidah found in the Epistle of Abi Zaid al-Qayrawani, the Lum’a of Imam al-Maqdasi, the works of Ibn Taymiyah and so on. I would also strongly encourage one to read Imam Hassan al-Banna’s Epistle on Aqida and the recent work of Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi "The differences between the creed of the salaf and the creed of the khalaf.""
All of this is "Salafi" literature and it all contains the same exact methodology in creed wa Allahu alim.
What it boils down to is what is meant by the Salafi movement, in reality I personally do not advocate the term Salafi, I believe it is a non-nonsensical term that suggests partisanship where in fact the reality is that Orthodox Sunni Muslims who call to follow the methodology of the pious predecessors in terms of Creed and Fiqh are labelled with this term and associated with horrible innovates that either call to hatred or sectarianism or killing innocents which is in total contrast to the way of the salaf and is in contrast to the Shariah.
In fact a true person who follows the Salaf is an Orthodox Sunni that follows any one of the four Madha`hib generally, be it the classical opinions or those of the respected Mujtahids, and follows the creed of the Salaf and the manners of the Salaf and so on wa Allahu alim. There is no need to hurl insults and spread misinformation simply because you are insecure in what you follow, all I am saying is that the Qur`an and Sunnah and understanding of the Salafus saalih is far supreme that any lies or deceit used to call people to innovation.
Jazakum Allahu khair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sakimonk ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
The section on earlier scholars considerd reference points by the modern-day Salafist movement seems a bit odd. Many of the people listed there are also used as reference points by other Sunni Islamic movements, and by Sunnis unaffiliated with any movement. I think for the sake of clarity, the list shold only include individuals who specifically used the term "salafi" or "we follow as-salaf as-salih." In the same sense, we could go to other Sunni movements such as Sufis or the Muslim Brotherhood and they would include almost the same exact list. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 04:21, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Salafi Template is added to the Page to maintain its neutrality to readers.Salafism as a movement should have this template much earlier.Editors can suggest any improvements. Sunnibarelvi ( talk) 21:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Where as Salafi movement opposes this tradition of Taqlid and focused on relying directly on the basic sources of Islam. Sunnibarelvi ( talk) 14:07, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I am proposing that Salafi Jehadism should have been included in the Article. Salafist jihadism-Salafist jihadism is a jihadist movement among Salafi Muslims. The term was coined by scholar Gilles Kepel [1] [2] to describe Salafi who became interested in violent jihad during the mid-1990s. Practitioners are often referred to as Salafi jihadis or Salafi jihadists. Another definition of Salafi jihadism, offered by Mohammed M. Hafez, is an "extreme form of Sunni Islamism that rejects democracy and Shia rule." Hafez distinguished them from apolitical and conservative Salafi scholars (such as Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani, Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen, Abd al-Aziz ibn Abd Allah ibn Baaz and Abdul-Azeez ibn Abdullaah Aal ash-Shaikh), but also from the sahwa movement associated with Salman al-Ouda or Safar Al-Hawali. [3]. Shabiha ( talk) 19:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
i think there should be two separate articles..one for the "salafi movement" & the other for first three generations. Baboon43 ( talk) 20:29, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
This heading was created, because a later section goes through set of edits, and having references from previous edit discussions mixed in with it is confusion.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:30, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
BLivesey
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Can User:Shabiha explain why this, this and this aren't breaches of WP:CANVASS? The posts to Baboon43 and BoogaLouie are especially problematic. DeCausa ( talk) 23:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Should not third party ,neutral and verifiable sources support the Article ? Shabiha ( talk) 22:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Salafi moved to Salafi movement and Wahhabi moved to Wahhabi movement. No consensus on whether Ibadi should be moved and I'd recommend a new RM that focuses solely on that article. Jenks24 ( talk) 10:55, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
– Article titles should be nouns, not adjectives. Even if the current titles are taken as nouns, they refer to individuals, not each sect. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 16:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC) Article editor ( talk) 07:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The Salafi "infobox" doesn't appear to be editable. Can someone make a proper infobox with the info there? David O. Johnson ( talk) 06:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The Asalah and Shabab organzations in the "infobox" presumably are supposed to link to the pages for those political parties, but they link to the wrong pages. Once the format is cleaned up, that should be fixed. David O. Johnson ( talk) 06:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I figured out how to get to the template: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Salafi
It might be easier just to make it an infobox though. David O. Johnson ( talk) 07:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it's necessary; I've figured out how to edit the template, so I will leave the template as it is. Thanks for the suggestion. David O. Johnson ( talk) 06:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
i deleted some contents which were not refrenced.or refrenced to global security.org or poor sources which are reverted.can you tell me please what is the reason behind placing such type of contents in this article.as many contents are wrong among them. Dil e Muslim talk 19:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC) i also added citation template which is also reverted can you discribe please. Dil e Muslim talk 19:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
i believe this article has not highlighted the extreme nationalism behind the wahabi movement..libyan mufti wants to ban women from marrying foreigners. [7] Baboon43 ( talk) 18:27, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
The Article is full of blatant POv.Most of the statements are directed to biased Salafi websites,Publications even some are sourced to dead links and some to forums.I have found some sources directly promoting Salafi view point and that too not in English language but in Arabic. For example-
The article must be directed to third party neutral sources to present a neutral and objective picture of the movement.I have also removed un sourced blatant POV,unnecessary praising and promotion of the movement. Shabiha ( talk) 20:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Let us go through the deletions, and break them into sections. [8] If the editor who made the deletions still feels that individual deletions were merited, please could he/she explain why in each case. It is likely that some of the deletions, once explained, will be accepted by all. But maybe others were mistakes. We need to judge them on their individual merits. I hope that you do not feel that it is too burdensome to explain them individually.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:Toddy1
Dear ,I am much thankful that you have been really helpful in spending your time on these Articles to guide me and making an atmosphere of discussion.My most of the concerns are related to difference between Salaf and Salafi.The bias I complained in most of the sources is that Salafi bias through which they praise salaf in order to deceive or to give an impression to readers that they are from them.This is most biased and non neutral, POV found on Salafi sites.Where as, there is clear history available of this movement on various neutral sites I am objecting Salafi Publications and few other Salafi sites due to this blatant POV.The salafi movement must have information and headings on this 19th century Salafi movement only.The article must start from its own history not by taking the name of old Salaf.I hope u understands.Thanks Read here and here Shabiha ( talk) 00:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
The following was deleted:
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Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:22, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
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Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
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It is authentically related from ad-Daaraqutnee that he said: There is nothing more despised by me than kalam. I say: He never entered into kalam nor argumentation. Rather, he was a Salafi. [2]
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Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following uncited text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? Would it not have been better to have tried to find sources for it? Or to attach "fact" tags? It does not seem to be a controversial statement.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following uncited text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? Would it not have been better to have tried to find sources for it? Or to attach "fact" tags? It does not seem to be a controversial statement.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? The first paragraph is uncited, but does not seem to be a controversial statement. Surely adding "fact tags" would have been better? What is wrong with the second paragraph?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
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Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
The following text was deleted:
"We say that suicide operations now, in the present times, all of them are without legislation and all of them are forbidden. It could be that the person who commits it could fall into the category of those who remain in the Hellfire forever, or it could be that he does not remain in the Hellfire forever..." [1]
" ...as for what some people do regarding activities of suicide, tying explosives to themselves and then approaching Unbelievers and detonating them amongst them, then this is a case of suicide, and Allaah¹s refuge is sought. So whoever commits suicide then he will be consigned eternally to Hell-Fire, remaining there forever, as occurs in the hadeeth of the Prophet, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam. (i.e., his, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, saying, " and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, then the iron weapon will remain in his hand, and he will continuously stab himself in his belly with it in the Fire of Hell eternally, forever and ever." Reported by al-Bukhaaree, no. 5778 and Muslim, no. 109, in the Book of Eemaan). Because this person has killed himself and has not benefited Islam. So if he kills himself along with ten, or a hundred, or two hundred other people, then Islam will not benefit by that, since the people will not accept Islam... ... Rather it will probably just make the enemy more determined, and this action will provoke malice and bitterness in his heart to such an extent that he may seek to wreak havoc upon the Muslims. This is what is found from the practice of the Jews with the people of Palestine, so when one of the Palestinian blows himself up and kills six or seven people, then in retaliation they take sixty or more. So this does not produce any benefit for the Muslims, and does not benefit those amongst whose ranks explosives are detonated. So what we hold is that those people who perform these suicide (bombings) have wrongfully committed suicide, and that this necessitates entry into Hell-Fire, and Allah¹s refuge is sought and that this person is not a martyr (shaheed). However if a person has done this based upon misinterpretation, thinking that it is permissible, then we hope that he will be saved from sin, but as for martyrdom being written for him, then no, since he has not taken the path of martyrdom. But whoever performs ijtihaad and errs will receive a single reward (if he is a person qualified to make ijtihaad)." [2]
" ...such an act is never correct because it is a form of killing oneself and Allāh subhanahu wa ta'ala says: < And do not kill yourselves. [Sūrah al-Nisā 4:29] > And the prophet salAllahu 'aleihi wa selim said: < Whoever kills himself by any means, he will be punished by it on the Day of Resurrection.” [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 670] > The person should rather strive and seek to guide them and if fighting is legalized and legislated, then he fights alongside the Muslims. If he’s then killed in this way, then Allāh is praised. But as for killing himself by booby-trapping his body with explosives, thereby killing others and himself, this is wrong and completely impermissible. Rather, he should fight with the Muslims only when fighting is legitimately legislated. As for the [suicidal] actions of (some of) the Palestinians, they are wrong and produce no benefit. Instead, it is compulsory upon them to call to Allāh by teaching, guiding, and advising and not by such actions as these." [3]
Please could you explain this change?-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
If islamagainstextremism website is too biased, can we at least quote the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia condemning violence in this news article by Arabnews.com?
http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/grand-mufti-denounces-violence-against-embassies — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.104.9.148 (
talk)
05:52, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
The following uncited text was deleted:
Please could you explain this change? Would it not have been better to have tried to find sources for it? Or to attach "fact" tags? It does not seem to be a controversial statement.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 14:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Shabiha hasn't edited this page for 3 days now and all of the above subsections (with the exception of the first one) has outstanding points made by others awaiting responses from Shabiha. Unless Shabiha re-engages and responds properly, I think consideration needs to be given to reverting some or all of the deletions (with whatever tweaks and fact tags that have been discussed added) DeCausa ( talk) 12:29, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Content seems to be mostly unrelated to the main article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.242.13.220 ( talk) 18:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)