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I have again reverted changes made by DP Raja. They introduce a lot of unsourced and poorly sourced material and overall do not improve the article. We can hammer out the issue here on the talk page, but just continuously re-inserting it is not the way to go. Thanks.-- Cúchullain t/ c 15:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
edit source is mentioned, this is not a "kudubhacharithram" to write some hoaxes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DP Raja ( talk • contribs) 07:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I have spent some time attempting to put the sentences in the section "Social mobility" into Standard English. I also added several "citation needed" and "clarification needed" tags, the latter accompanied by notes to editors.
In addition to the lack of references and frequent lack of clarity and precision, I wonder whether the entire section is perhaps too long and detailed. I also noticed that at a certain point, about two-thirds to three-quarters of the way through, the syntax suddenly changed to perfect English, and I wonder whether some of that material were not taken directly from a source. If it was, those lines either need to be changed to paraphrase (and sourced) or put into quotation marks (or block quotes if long). CorinneSD ( talk) 23:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
It is true that there are Pentecostal St Thomas Christians. This can also be seen as seperate articles are already there for some of the St. Thomas Pentecostal churches. I do not understand what @ Sitush: is wanting as citation. Even as perWP:Burden, the editors should allow time to add citations by adding citation needed tags, before deleting a portion. --~ ScitDei Wanna talk? 12:14, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
3O Response: The 3O request asked specifically for an opinion on the use of this source to support this edit, so that's what I'm restricting myself to. Whilst the Burgess source can certainly be used to support the claim that "Another new movement called Pentecostalism attracted quite a few of the Syrian Christians, from the already existing denominations in the latter half of the 20th century", it emphatically cannot support the statement that "The pioneers of many Pentecostal and evangelical groups in Kerala, like the Brethren, IPC, Assemblies of God, Church of God, and many other similar churches were Saint Thomas Christians." Nowhere in the source does it say anything of the kind. If the latter claim is to be included, a different reliable source needs to be found which unambiguously states that the Pentecostal pioneers were originally St Thomas Christians. Yunshui 雲 水 13:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The introduction line and the well-accepted infobox have been in the article since the beginning. I have tried to reinstate them.
I request the Admins to check the following three accounts for sock-puppetry.
It seems that the same person edits the articles using different names. 117.217.128.253 ( talk) 17:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
An issue here is that St. Thomas Christians by name and by faith believe themselves to be converted by St. Thomas, Apostle of Christ in India. Catholics in India are only established after the arrival of Portuguese. and the catholics are hellbent on change of history to their favour using all their resources. If Wikipedia doesn't stop this nonsene then there is no use to referering this page for any good use. If you are so desirous of spreading the word of god then do it to the masses and not in the history books, because if you change your history you are not worth any message you spread. 117.227.19.58 ( talk) 01:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC) George 117.227.19.58 ( talk) 01:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Does those sources refer to Catholics converted or aligned to Roman Catholic church as indigenous St. Thomas Christians or they used the term to generally refer to christians. Further the Original Saint thomas christians was a name give by europeans to people who were the ones who were already christians before the evangelical movement of catholics. even if some St Thomas christians may have joined them, Catholics have converted more indigenous population to roman catholics and by and large very far away from the traditions of the real st. thomas christians. If you say history of 200-300 hundred years can whitewash the history of almost 2000 years your sources may be right. 117.233.14.192 ( talk) 10:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)George
Further i would like to add if what people believe is to taken as measure i believe they are not st. thomas christians, if you want proof from reliable sources, take any and read them they refer to christians who were not catholics before the arrival portugese. George 117.233.14.192 ( talk) 10:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
For the sake of argument would you address white Americans or for that matter any black American by the nationality of their ancestors. They have culturally and habitually so diverged from that of their ancestors from different nations that they have attained a divergent and unique and different distinct american identity. such is the case with malabar catholics and they had joined the catholic faith (even if some people doubt, they sincerely hold their allegiance to the pope) long time back, even converted many indigenous hindus and other religions elements ( through their early evangilical work which is still continuing) into their fold. their rank and file are mostly filled with those people who have very little to do with the real st. thomas christians. Just because someone has published something it doens't become 'an authentic source'. You have corrected me twice, may i ask you how much do you know about st. thomas christians. I am not alleging that you are biased nor do i want to believe the same (to much politics in religion nowadays). Taking time out to monitor this page in itself is very big. I am a jacobite and i live in Kerala, India, and don't really care what anyone says or for that matter even less for what are published on the internet, but to see a page which many see and many more may see in future i would like the page to reflect authentic records. and to see something based on evangilical publicity materials, i don't hold it on high values. rest assured i hope the matter is settled. I have by reason of my origins never ventured into seeking sources for my origin as they were as they are to me since the time i was born. hope somebody finds relevant sources. I have nothing more to say. George 117.227.85.127 ( talk) 15:28, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
the schism occurred around 400 AD and since then the churches have remained different, actually four different places 1 at rome,2 at constantinople, 3 alexandria, 4 at antiochia which has been the see of christians in india before the evangilical movement by catholics. ScitDei your sources are very unrealiable because there was only one church before the portugese arrived in India. people didn't have any denominations before the evangilical movement. they only went to one church that church definitely wasn't catholic. constantinople and alexandria later merged with rome but the see of antiochia has not till date. schism of 1054 had in no way altered the church in india atleast upto and until the catholic evangilical movemement in india. my church teaches there are two measning of catholisism one to meant one in christ and one that means in agreement with the pope of rome. so which catholic church are you referring to [1] 117.251.187.24 ( talk) 05:07, 28 May 2014 (UTC)George
Quote An organised Christian presence in India dates to the arrival of East Syrian settlers and missionaries from Persia, members of the Church of the East or Nestorian Church, in around the 3rd century. Unquote
How on earth can that be true when Nestorius didn't live until the 5th century? There are similar wild statements in other articles here about the history of Christianity In India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.49.221.127 ( talk) 21:35, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
reference from well reputed historians are provided but then also removed and false information and hoaxes are everywhere and these stories are project as history!.made up stories of some "family historians" are used as authentic history!. There has been an awful lot of well-sourced content removed over the last month or two, and a lot of poorly-sourced content added - notably, too much reliance on nasrani.net. Unless people come up with decent explanations for the removals, I am going to add the material back. - Sitush ( talk) 18:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
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117.196.150.216 ( talk) is engaging in an edit war. The user repeatedly reverting edits I did- mainly stylistic but also to make the text more in line with the sources.
They have not supported their edits or objections.
The substantive edits is the following: STC origin is clarified to be being believed to be *possibly* some time in the first few centuries A.D. There is no historical certainty.
The stylistic edits was to refer Indian Christianity. STC is clearly a form of Indian Christianity, one could even say it is the most Indian of Indian Christianities being the oldest and the most integrated forms..
Josslined ( talk) 14:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
To talk about sock puppetry you've used I believe 3 different IP address to revert the article 5 times. I have reported you for edit warring.
As for A.D.52 some traditional sources say A.D. 52. other say 50- the date is clearly not a fact. My main source is Frykenberg. But you are correct the source currently cited is inadequate and will need changing. There is not 'one standard tradition' but many.
STC is Indian Christianity that is indigenous (dictionary definition : "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native") to India, even if some have taken citizenship elsewhere or have migrated. It's defining characteristic is that it is a form of Christianity that formed India before European contact. Josslined ( talk) 16:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Reasons for edits:
Many of the edits I made today were purely stylistic. Rearranging awkward sentences. Other than that here are the edits I made and the reasons:
1. First paragraph: I changed 'commonly called' to 'referred to'. Reason: the Saint Thomas Christians is no more an official appellation than Syrian Christians or Nasrani. Indeed officially the community is called Syrian Christians, and historically Nasrani. Saint Thomas Christians is more a recent coinage that probably took place during European missionary work and is not used much in official or even scholarly discourse. I wanted to give emphasize that Syrian Christian or Nasrani are not nick-names or colloquialism. I understand in an international setting Syrian Christian can be confusing and so can Nasrani. But in actuality and in official record those are the names used historically.
2. First Paragraph: I clarified that while the community is no doubt old, no one really knows exactly when it began, even if legends (the sources we have don't date more than 4/5 hundred years max) claim the 1st century A.D or even more and very dubiously specify exactly the year as A.D. 52.
3. I added Frykenberg as the source for the first paragraph- he is the most comprehensive source on the topic.
3. First portion of Early History and Tradition. Following edits made:
a. I clarified many sources don't list the names of the gramams that are purportedly converted but do mention the tradition of Brahmin conversions. The sources for the list is Frykenberg and Thoma.
b. I added one sentence to clarify why this legend has some significance- it was the basis or the rationality for a class system in place in the community for hundreds of years. This is clear from Frykenberg.
Josslined ( talk) 16:09, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
One rogue editor, ManofManyTrophies has been attempting do the following:
1. Add claims of a large number of Jews converting to christianity, and then adding false citations. 2. Remove content written on the basis of Prof Malekandathil's published research. Nasrani.net reproduced a chapter from his book. His claim is that the source is not reliable.
Prof Malekandathil is professor of history at JNU, I believe India's most recognized History department, and his book has been reviewed in international journals. His book can be accessed here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=rN69iFj1PJoC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=pius+malekandathil+&ots=zC_bWvYX01&sig=fC68k0GDnxQtWn0czgDFNhWH-F0#v=onepage&q=pius%20malekandathil&f=false
Other than engaging in a discussion, he has been vandalizing my talk page with dubious warnings. I would like to ask for a third party review. Cúchullain?
Josslined ( talk) 16:13, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
The authenticity of the entries on Wikipedia is very doubtful. Some scrupulous guys edit and and changes the entire history according to their likes and to gain popularity of their groups or families. St.thomas Indian community history is the most edited version on Wikipedia. Those who edit that page has no clues of the history of Indian st Thomas Christians. If they cannot find their family name on the page, they simply add to it . and try to make it authentic. Orthodox Christian history in India clearly states that Only SEVEN FAMILIES were initially converted to Christianity. When somebody doesn't find their family name in the list , he or she simply add their family name to it and deliberately omit the original families who are on the original list. THE ORIGINAL SEVEN FAMILIES ARE KALLI,KALLIANKAL,KALLARAKAL ,MANKI,MADATHALAN,,MATTAMUK AND MANAVASRI.I don't mind anybody add their family name to it, but don't try to draw the history according to their wishes. JayMaveli ( talk) 08:08, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
It just sounds absolutely ridiculous as every 2 seconds in reading that article, I see some sort of comparison between Brahmins and Syrian Christians or Nairs and Syrian Christians. The sentence 'on par with Brahmins' or 'at the same level as savarna hindus' is probably the most common sentence in that article. It sounds like those from the community wish they were Brahmins or Nairs. If you say that there isn't any caste promotional things in the article that try to lift the status of the community, I would be more than happy to provide evidence for that. 'Privileged Military Role'...this is complete baloney. ManofManyTrophies ( talk) 19:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Had you checked the source for your particular complaint you would see it is adequately backed up. The source is L.K. Ananthakrishna Iyer's Anthropology of Syrian Christians, which is available online. The required page is 55 and you can look it up here: https://archive.org/stream/AnthropologyOfTheSyrianChristians/Anthropology%20Of%20The%20Syrian%20Christians#page/n93
Josslined ( talk) 21:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Will also like to add, it is funny that
ManofManyTrophies is accusing me for defending 'caste promotion' in this article, given judging by recent 'contributions' to other articles, caste promotion seems to be his hobby.
See /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/ManofManyTrophies
Josslined ( talk) 21:39, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Many syrian catholics good "kudikidappu avakasham", were forced to do oozhiyam service until the proclamation of Dewan reddy Rao on December 29 1815!!
All cooked up stories, most Nasranis along with ezhavas were involved in Liquor trade which is by far the biggest evidence to support their common origins, The nambudiri origin claims are all fads just to escape casteist opression, No syrian christian became the dewans or army commanders of any kingdom until the british uplifted them by giving education and estates as return for their loyal services-all to dismantle the "nair dominance" in travancore in particular 106.51.20.13 ( talk) 16:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC) It should also be noted that the ORIGINAL NAMBUDIRIS who came from Ahichatra evangelised many fisherman and localites into BRAHMANISM-(source-elamkulam kunjan pillai) So in reality most nambudiris Syrian Catholics and ezhavas have the same blood [2] 106.51.20.13 ( talk) 16:32, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The most frequently edited pages of Wikipedia is St.Thomas Christians pages and it is protected too so that other vandals cannot edit this pages anymore. Only authorized WIKI VANDALS are allowed to edit this page. Some scrupulous editors edit these pages to gain popularity of their family name distorting the real facts.I don't mind adding their family name in to this pages, but my request is that DON'T OMIT the original few families that still in existence. The original SEVEN FAMILIES from MALANKARA (Kerala) that St.Thomas converted are KALLI,KALLARAKAL,KALLIANKAL,MANKI,MADATHALAN,MATTAMUKU and MANAVASRI. If anyone wants to add their family name they can do so BUT don't distort the real HISTORY. Remember history is history and there are records to prove it.ANYHOW WIKIPEDIA IS NOTORIOUS FOR FALSIFYING THE FACTS AND PEOPLE DONT RELIE ON WIKIFACTS. JayMaveli ( talk) 11:25, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Please don't include it. The Mar Thoma people is a subset of STC who follow anglican faith. It would be confusing to merge a subset with the set, as if all STC as Mar Thoma, which is not true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josslined ( talk • contribs) 21:42, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Josslined removed an established inline citation, which is accessible online, for the 4th time. The inline citation, The Jews of India: A Story of Three Communities by Orpa Slapak, was removed because it contradicts Josslined's main claim. That citation talks about Hebrew signatures found on a 9th century Christian inscription, that is still available in Kerala for verification. No indigenous person in ancient Kerala would have signed in Hebrew in the 9th century. It is a physical evidence, not any speculation.
In the 2nd century, Pantaenus from Alexandria visited a Christian community in India using the Gospel of Mathew in Hebrew language. We have evidence of travel between Egypt and ancient Kerala (See Silk Road trade routes) in the 2nd century. No indigenous people would have used that Gospel at that time. The 2nd century South Indian epic Manimekkalai talks about a non-Indian Jewish Christian community in ancient Kerala.
The lead section should be inclusive and neutral. So I have reverted some of the edits and restored the citation removed by Josslined. I welcome other Users who have experience in editing this article to decide on the correctness of the recent changes proposed by Josslined and whether they are really needed or not. Anyway, we should not remove the citations verifiable online.
The Caste System that existed in the northern part of India did not exist as such in Kerala in the early centuries. Some obviously unreliable wild guesswork, which was not there in the article before 2015, like different castes, number of people converted, etc. can be removed. Jossyys ( talk) 01:23, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
Users like Achayan or his sock puppet post many pictures in this article. Please remember to post pictures of relevance to the concerned matter. There are so many ceremonies and rituals among St Thomas Christians. Some of them are not common also. For example baptismal font is used in Malankara Church. I don't understand what is the importance of 21 beads on the thali as stated in the picture. Also would like to keep the pure east Syrian crowning ceremony picture of the Chaldean Syrian Church as this Church is not represented. In my opinion, all St Thomas Churches should be given some representation rather than posting pictures of a particular Church. Also I noticed that user Achayan or his sock puppet with IP address starting 202 is so much interested in projecting his family and his marriage photo on this site. He had inserted his family name Payyapilly along with the early families converted by St Thomas. Later I noticed it and removed it. Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 16:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
On division and defiance it is better to post the picture of MarThoma I as he was the primary person concerned with the Coonan cross oath and the first division in the Church. Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 16:16, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
The source you add is a reference work on Roman Catholic history and belief edited by the faculty of the Catholic University of America. It cannot be considered an independent source. It says that Theophilus (surnamed the Indian) — an Arian, sent by Emperor Constantius (about 354) on a mission to Arabia Felix and Abyssinia — is one of the earliest, if not the first, who draws our attention to them. Note the point, "our attention to them". In fact, Christians existed in Kerala before that period; however, they could not notice those Christians. I shall explain it. We have to note that Christianity was illegal in Rome until the 4th century AD, until AD 313 and Christians were persecuted in the Roman Empire until then. In AD 313, the Edict of Milan decriminalizing Christian worship was issued. So, only after that period, they started taking interest in Christianity. The Church of the East is a different Church. A particular Church's version cannot be considered the definition of another independent Church. We have to verify different independent sources.
The term 'Malankara' was used originally, not 'Malabar'. See the picture of the tomb that was removed from the article by Kokkarani the other day; the term 'Malankara Nasrani' is used. Jossyys ( talk) 00:32, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Your point: The Chronicle of Seert reports that a Bishop David of Basra engaged in missionary activity in India around 295/300, and it seems that Joseph of Edessa was named bishop of India by the catholicos of the Church of the East in 345.
This has been discussed a lot by many learned historians. The India mentioned here is NOT about St.Thomas Christians. Please go through more sources to clarify it. I have gone through a number of books and Encyclopedias and none of them state anything like you claimed. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 04:03, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Your point:it seems that Joseph of Edessa was named bishop of India by the catholicos of the Church of the East in 345.
Do you have any reference for your assertion that he was a bishop of St Thomas Christians? India mentioned at that time included a region east of Hindukush mountains.There was grater India and lesser India. Your claim is based on vague things. The reference you provided is NOT sufficient to accept your claim. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 04:10, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
The Chronicle of Seert (or Siirt) is an ecclesiastical history written in Arabic by an anonymous Nestorian writer, at an unknown date between the ninth and the eleventh century. How much reliability it has? Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 04:36, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Please stick to the TOPIC. We r not discussing about the dependence of the Church of the East on Antioch. You said St.Thomas Christians started relationship/communion with the Church of the East from 4th century. Please bring forth sufficient credible reference to prove it and convince others. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 05:22, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Even though that is NOT our topic, I just quote a part from page 19 of the book-Church of the East A concise history-Wilhelm Baum and Dietmar W. Winkler for your information.
The synod of 424 is widely regarded as the occasion on which the Church of the East stated its claim to autocephaly through the rejection of the “right of appeal” to the West. It has been assumed that in this year the Church of the East declared itself independent of the patriarch of Antioch. One must realize, however, that such a declaration of independence from the patriarch of Antioch need not have taken place, as this presupposes an earlier dependence. The Church of the East can be considered to have been autocephalous since the Synod of Isaac in Seleucia-Ctesiphon (410). Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 05:29, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
OK. The history-divisions diagram is changed accordingly. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 19:08, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Saint Thomas Christians has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please edit
"The community was historically united in leadership and liturgy, but since the 17th century have been split into several different church denominations and traditions"
"[[Thomas_the_Apostle|Saint Thomas the Apostle]] reached India in AD 52, who was followed by [[Thomas_of_Cana|Knai Thoma]] in AD 345 along with 72 families and clergymen. The second Syrian migration to Kerala happened in AD 825 along with two bishops [[Mar_Sabor_and_Mar_Proth|Mar Sapor and Mar Aproth]] further strengthen the relationship between Saint Thomas Christians and the Syrian liturgy. The community was historically united in leadership and liturgy, but since the 17th century have been split into several different church denominations and traditions."
-- Gibies ( talk · contribs) 05:58, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
yrian Christians are Ezhava converts. This was even acknowledged by Fr Paul Thelekkatu{ priest of syro malabar sabha}. This article seems to have been written by people who can't digest their slave past and want to satisfy their vanity. These guys received Kudikidappu Avakasham from Nair feudal lords and Namboothiri jenmis. Even today they live under false notion that they are upper caste. Fact is that even today these guys are not allowed to enter temples or Purification rituals are performed if they enter... So much for their Nambudiri ancestry. Men can lie but his genes can never lie. Their genes are most similar to other South Indian communities (except nairs) [3]. This is an excerpt from Harappa DNA project Syrian Christians surnames like Thampan and Panicker were commonly used by Ezhavas. Both these communities were into liquor brewing Vallyathampran ( talk) 14:44, 30 December 2016 (UTC)Vallyathampran
References
I'm choosing to revert this page back to a previous version used in an antecedent revert, for the following reasons:
1. The edits by User:Mages Mathew lack justification, respect for the style guidelines and deleted or replace reference-supported text for no visible reason.
2. The section on genetic composition of Saint Thomas Christians, as it stands, is incorrectly formatted and lacks context. See Assyrian_people#Genetics for an example of well-contextualised genetic research, which describes the results in plain English.
This will make the recent change by User:Maproom void, sorry about that.
Maximilian Aigner ( talk) 13:53, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
We routinely disregard genetics studies in Indian articles relating to Indian social groups, for a bunch of reasons best highlighted in the post of Fowler&fowler that can be found here. Such studies might be appropriately mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia but they are not considered suitable here. That is why I have been removing information from this article and will continue to do so. I'm not even convinced that this is actually a reliable source. - Sitush ( talk) 11:54, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
I note that the source was briefly mentioned in this discussion. - Sitush ( talk) 14:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
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The St Thomas Christians church or "Malankara Sabha", was split into two because of Catholic Church authorities tried to tie it under its belt, now the details about the division is also seemed to have influenced by Catholics. Need to edit the details given about the divisions of Nasranis Syriannasrani ( talk) 15:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
The pattern of writing is not easy to read, can we edit to make it more lucid and simple to read ( 45.248.92.96 ( talk) 13:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC))
The result of the move request was: WP:SNOW not moved. This RM is clearly not going to pass. ( closed by page mover) GeoffreyT2000 ( talk) 02:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Saint Thomas Christians → Mar Thoma Nasrani – per WP:COMMON NAME, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) - Self identification Achayan ( talk) 20:56, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Iyer is probably C. P. Ramaswami Iyer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.13.95.139 ( talk) 10:37, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
1) Essenes was a community that existed between 2nd century and 1st century AD. Manimekalai may or may not refer to a community existing in South India. However there are no credible sources linking Essenes to the Nasrani community of today. Please provide reference to an academic text or paper. 2) Rabbinic Judaism barely influenced the Cochin Jews by the 16th century. There is no way it influenced in any meaningful way the Nasrani community particularly after the Portuguese Synod. I do grant that Portuguese did proscribe the following of some Jewish customs. 3) Judeo-christian roots. The Thoma Parvam mention some Jews who converted to Judaism, but very little academic sources linking the two communities (though there is some reason to believe the Knanayas have had some links).
I suggest these connections are speculative. At best they are new theories and not established knowledge.
If you disagree please provide references (including page numbers), and we can go through the academic sources together. Josslined ( talk) 19:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Both the catholic church as well as several archaeological evidences have thoroughly debunked the possibility of Thomas having come to India (if he even existed). https://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com/category/christian-mythology/
Can we update this wiki to reflect this please? this is largely a folklore created to give legitimacy to the belief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.44.177.134 ( talk) 05:10, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
No, the links you have provided are not neutral and are bias. Please add other sources as well. Manabimasu ( talk) 01:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
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Please change the link destination for "Savarna" to "Varna (Hinduism)" (unfortunately, the current link destination is only a disambiguation page which brings up irrelevant information about a spider in 'Page preview'). Thanks. 203.221.188.175 ( talk) 05:37, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Done However, none of the sources contained “Varna” but “Savarna” was not contextually appropriate. Manabimasu ( talk) 06:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Saint Thomas Christians focuses on the ethnoreligious group in India. However, Chaldean Christians trace also have St. Thomas roots. Would they be considered Saint Thomas Christians as well? Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 17:56, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Several scholars of Jewish history have noted similarities and connections between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. Here are a few quotations from some of these scholars:
1) "There is at least one genre of Knanaya literature that exists also in the Jewish Malayalam corpus, the pallippattu, 'Synagogue song'." (Quote from - page 92 - Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
Note: The Malayalam term "Palli" is used to refer to the Syrian Christian "church" and also the Cochin Jewish "synagogue". Also note that the term ‘Syrian Christian’ was coined by the British. Historically, before the arrival of the British to India, the Cochin Jews were called ‘Malabar Juda Mappila’ and the so called Syrian Christians were called ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’. The term Mappila as used in Malayalam means ‘of West Asian Semitic descent’. It is better to use the term ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’ as this could reduce a lot of the confusion that arise from using the term ‘Syrian Christian.’
2) "Jussay and Weil compare some songs with the wedding songs of Knanaya Christians as suggestive of historic cultural relations between the two communities. (759) Johnson, with Daniel as her guidance in the language of the corpus, takes the songs as expressions of the socio-religious identity and ideology of Jewish women in Kerala. (760)” (Quote from – page 389 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
(Also refer to - Weil, Shalva J. (1982). "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cnanite Christian and the Cochin Jews of Kerela," Contributions to Indian Sociology 16: 175-196. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/006996678201600202 )
3) "There are genres of narrative songs about Biblical characters similar to the formulaic songs in the anthology of Knanaya Christian songs – the women's vattamkali pattu and the men's cintu. (786) • The synagogue motif suggests a linkage with the Knanaya Christians. It seems to be adopted into the Jewish Malayalam corpus from the Knanaya songs, where it stands for a more mature genre." (Quote from – page 402 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
4) "Similarities between the rites and customs of the Syrian Christians (of Kerala) and the Jews of Kerala reflect a possible common origin in the ancient Middle East, and serve as heuristic evidence in support of the historical claims of both communities." (Quote from – page 88 – Ritual and Music in South India: Syrian Christian Liturgical Music in Kerala. Author(s): Israel J. Ross. Source: Asian Music, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1979), pp. 80-98. http://www.syriacstudies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Syrian-music-in-kerala.pdf)
5) In the paper ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue (1984), the Cochin Jewish writers Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:
"...the Syrian Christian (copper) plates with the signature of four Jewish witnesses in Judeo - Persian, which incidentally is the second oldest inscription in Judeo- Persian in the world, are a few of the ancient relics that can still be seen to remind one of the glorious past of this forgotten outpost of the Jewish world. " (Page 2 Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).
6) In another quote from their text the authors Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:
"There are at least a few instances of direct evidence of a Jewish settlement on the South - West Coast of India during the first century of the Christian era. In a wedding song of the ancient Christians of Malabar, mention is made of one Habban, a Jewish merchant, who was sent by a Royal decree to fetch a man who would build a temple more beautiful than the one King Solomon had built in Palestine. Habban accompanied by St. Thomas arrived in Cranganore in 55 A. D., St. Thomas was welcomed by a Jewish flute girl. He stayed in the Jewish quarter of the town and some Jews are said to have been baptized by him in Cranganore." (Page 3 – Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).
Additional note: The copper plates of privileges granted to the Cochin Jews and the Syrian Christians of Kerala by an ancient King of Kerala are similar with 72 privileges engraved on these copper plates. It is important to note that the copper plates in possession with the Cochin Jewish synagogue is in old Malayalam script ( Vattezhuthu), while the Kollam (Quilon) copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians is in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew. Ironically, it is the Hebrew script on the Kollam copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malabar Nasranis) that is often taken as conclusive evidence for the earliest presence of Jews in Kerala and India.
“The Kollam copper-plates inscription (849 ce) in Old Malayalam is the earliest evidence of Jews reaching the region.9” (page 55 - Gamliel, O. (2018) Back from Shingly: revisiting the pre-modern history of Jews ... Indian Economic and Social History Review, 55(1), pp. 53-76.)
The subgroup of the Saint Thomas Christians known as the Knanaya or Southists trace their lineage to Thomas of Cana
How would Knanaya come under the definition of Saint Thomas Christians while they themselves consider to be descendants of immigrants came from middle east on fourth century? -- 99v ( talk) 20:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Saint Thomas Christians's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "stthoma":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:23, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
seperately -- Should be separately. Will some suitably privileged person correct this. Thank you. 78.144.83.114 ( talk) 23:02, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Done Manabimasu ( talk) 00:52, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Hi @ Elizium23:, the user @lislecowls or @ Jennaiowan (I’m not sure if this is the same person using different accounts) is repeatedly breaking copyright rules for the three following images:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knanaya_Ichappadu_Kodukkal.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knanaya_Chantham_Charthal.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knanaya_wedding_(1903).jpg#mw-jump-to-license
He or she is claiming that these are from a private family album from 1903 when in reality they are from the “Syrian Christian Marriage in India” (1985) a documentary film made by scholars Dr. Jacob Vellian, Dr. Jacob Kollaparambil, and Mr. Chummar Choondal. The film and its content are not free to use but copyrighted by the Hadusa institute. The film is even seen on YouTube used with permission by the Christian Musicological Society of India:
Aramaic Project-77 Syriac Christian Wedding in India” (I cannot post the link because of the spam filter)
I’ve mentioned this several times but the user is quite clearly deceptively making up claims about these images. I do not know if this is on purpose or they simply don’t know where this content is from and that it is copyrighted. I would like to request the images be deleted. Thomast48 ( talk) 19:52, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
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This
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Saint Thomas Christians has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change below line from
According to legend, the community began with Thomas's conversion of Brahmin families, namely Pakalomattom, Sankarapuri, Kalli, Kaliyankal, Nedumpilly, Palackal, Panakkamattom, Kunnappilly, Vazhappilly, Payyappilly, Maliakkal, Pattamukku and Thaiyil. [1]
to
According to legend, the community began with Thomas's conversion of Brahmin families, namely Pakalomattom, Sankarapuri, Kalli, Kaliyankal, Koikara, Madapoor, Muttodal, Kottakara, Nedumpilly, Palackal, Panakkamattom, Kunnappilly, Vazhappilly, Payyappilly, Maliakkal, Pattamukku and Thaiyil. [2] [3] Of these families, Sankarapuri and Palamattam (Pakalomattom) were ordained and set apart for sacred orders and bishops. The priesthood has been practically hereditary in the two families, Sankarapuri and Palamattam, for several centuries with the inheritance in the female line [4]
Reference Link: https://archive.org/stream/AnthropologyOfTheSyrianChristians/Anthropology%20Of%20The%20Syrian%20Christians_djvu.txt 116.15.38.106 ( talk) 00:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
References
@ Kokkarani: You had removed three images. Since I didn't find any justifiable reason behind their removal, I have restored two of them namely, the images of Saint Thomas and Abraham of Angamaly. However, I think your edit summary on the removal of the timeline chart require a discussion. So what prompted you to its removal? Br Ibrahim john ( talk) 23:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:23, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
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These were Arya Brahmins(Indo-Aryans) who travelled to the Southern part of India and Accepted Christianity. 117.220.249.218 ( talk) 10:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
I have again reverted changes made by DP Raja. They introduce a lot of unsourced and poorly sourced material and overall do not improve the article. We can hammer out the issue here on the talk page, but just continuously re-inserting it is not the way to go. Thanks.-- Cúchullain t/ c 15:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
edit source is mentioned, this is not a "kudubhacharithram" to write some hoaxes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DP Raja ( talk • contribs) 07:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I have spent some time attempting to put the sentences in the section "Social mobility" into Standard English. I also added several "citation needed" and "clarification needed" tags, the latter accompanied by notes to editors.
In addition to the lack of references and frequent lack of clarity and precision, I wonder whether the entire section is perhaps too long and detailed. I also noticed that at a certain point, about two-thirds to three-quarters of the way through, the syntax suddenly changed to perfect English, and I wonder whether some of that material were not taken directly from a source. If it was, those lines either need to be changed to paraphrase (and sourced) or put into quotation marks (or block quotes if long). CorinneSD ( talk) 23:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
It is true that there are Pentecostal St Thomas Christians. This can also be seen as seperate articles are already there for some of the St. Thomas Pentecostal churches. I do not understand what @ Sitush: is wanting as citation. Even as perWP:Burden, the editors should allow time to add citations by adding citation needed tags, before deleting a portion. --~ ScitDei Wanna talk? 12:14, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
3O Response: The 3O request asked specifically for an opinion on the use of this source to support this edit, so that's what I'm restricting myself to. Whilst the Burgess source can certainly be used to support the claim that "Another new movement called Pentecostalism attracted quite a few of the Syrian Christians, from the already existing denominations in the latter half of the 20th century", it emphatically cannot support the statement that "The pioneers of many Pentecostal and evangelical groups in Kerala, like the Brethren, IPC, Assemblies of God, Church of God, and many other similar churches were Saint Thomas Christians." Nowhere in the source does it say anything of the kind. If the latter claim is to be included, a different reliable source needs to be found which unambiguously states that the Pentecostal pioneers were originally St Thomas Christians. Yunshui 雲 水 13:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The introduction line and the well-accepted infobox have been in the article since the beginning. I have tried to reinstate them.
I request the Admins to check the following three accounts for sock-puppetry.
It seems that the same person edits the articles using different names. 117.217.128.253 ( talk) 17:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
An issue here is that St. Thomas Christians by name and by faith believe themselves to be converted by St. Thomas, Apostle of Christ in India. Catholics in India are only established after the arrival of Portuguese. and the catholics are hellbent on change of history to their favour using all their resources. If Wikipedia doesn't stop this nonsene then there is no use to referering this page for any good use. If you are so desirous of spreading the word of god then do it to the masses and not in the history books, because if you change your history you are not worth any message you spread. 117.227.19.58 ( talk) 01:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC) George 117.227.19.58 ( talk) 01:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Does those sources refer to Catholics converted or aligned to Roman Catholic church as indigenous St. Thomas Christians or they used the term to generally refer to christians. Further the Original Saint thomas christians was a name give by europeans to people who were the ones who were already christians before the evangelical movement of catholics. even if some St Thomas christians may have joined them, Catholics have converted more indigenous population to roman catholics and by and large very far away from the traditions of the real st. thomas christians. If you say history of 200-300 hundred years can whitewash the history of almost 2000 years your sources may be right. 117.233.14.192 ( talk) 10:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)George
Further i would like to add if what people believe is to taken as measure i believe they are not st. thomas christians, if you want proof from reliable sources, take any and read them they refer to christians who were not catholics before the arrival portugese. George 117.233.14.192 ( talk) 10:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
For the sake of argument would you address white Americans or for that matter any black American by the nationality of their ancestors. They have culturally and habitually so diverged from that of their ancestors from different nations that they have attained a divergent and unique and different distinct american identity. such is the case with malabar catholics and they had joined the catholic faith (even if some people doubt, they sincerely hold their allegiance to the pope) long time back, even converted many indigenous hindus and other religions elements ( through their early evangilical work which is still continuing) into their fold. their rank and file are mostly filled with those people who have very little to do with the real st. thomas christians. Just because someone has published something it doens't become 'an authentic source'. You have corrected me twice, may i ask you how much do you know about st. thomas christians. I am not alleging that you are biased nor do i want to believe the same (to much politics in religion nowadays). Taking time out to monitor this page in itself is very big. I am a jacobite and i live in Kerala, India, and don't really care what anyone says or for that matter even less for what are published on the internet, but to see a page which many see and many more may see in future i would like the page to reflect authentic records. and to see something based on evangilical publicity materials, i don't hold it on high values. rest assured i hope the matter is settled. I have by reason of my origins never ventured into seeking sources for my origin as they were as they are to me since the time i was born. hope somebody finds relevant sources. I have nothing more to say. George 117.227.85.127 ( talk) 15:28, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
the schism occurred around 400 AD and since then the churches have remained different, actually four different places 1 at rome,2 at constantinople, 3 alexandria, 4 at antiochia which has been the see of christians in india before the evangilical movement by catholics. ScitDei your sources are very unrealiable because there was only one church before the portugese arrived in India. people didn't have any denominations before the evangilical movement. they only went to one church that church definitely wasn't catholic. constantinople and alexandria later merged with rome but the see of antiochia has not till date. schism of 1054 had in no way altered the church in india atleast upto and until the catholic evangilical movemement in india. my church teaches there are two measning of catholisism one to meant one in christ and one that means in agreement with the pope of rome. so which catholic church are you referring to [1] 117.251.187.24 ( talk) 05:07, 28 May 2014 (UTC)George
Quote An organised Christian presence in India dates to the arrival of East Syrian settlers and missionaries from Persia, members of the Church of the East or Nestorian Church, in around the 3rd century. Unquote
How on earth can that be true when Nestorius didn't live until the 5th century? There are similar wild statements in other articles here about the history of Christianity In India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.49.221.127 ( talk) 21:35, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
reference from well reputed historians are provided but then also removed and false information and hoaxes are everywhere and these stories are project as history!.made up stories of some "family historians" are used as authentic history!. There has been an awful lot of well-sourced content removed over the last month or two, and a lot of poorly-sourced content added - notably, too much reliance on nasrani.net. Unless people come up with decent explanations for the removals, I am going to add the material back. - Sitush ( talk) 18:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
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117.196.150.216 ( talk) is engaging in an edit war. The user repeatedly reverting edits I did- mainly stylistic but also to make the text more in line with the sources.
They have not supported their edits or objections.
The substantive edits is the following: STC origin is clarified to be being believed to be *possibly* some time in the first few centuries A.D. There is no historical certainty.
The stylistic edits was to refer Indian Christianity. STC is clearly a form of Indian Christianity, one could even say it is the most Indian of Indian Christianities being the oldest and the most integrated forms..
Josslined ( talk) 14:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
To talk about sock puppetry you've used I believe 3 different IP address to revert the article 5 times. I have reported you for edit warring.
As for A.D.52 some traditional sources say A.D. 52. other say 50- the date is clearly not a fact. My main source is Frykenberg. But you are correct the source currently cited is inadequate and will need changing. There is not 'one standard tradition' but many.
STC is Indian Christianity that is indigenous (dictionary definition : "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native") to India, even if some have taken citizenship elsewhere or have migrated. It's defining characteristic is that it is a form of Christianity that formed India before European contact. Josslined ( talk) 16:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Reasons for edits:
Many of the edits I made today were purely stylistic. Rearranging awkward sentences. Other than that here are the edits I made and the reasons:
1. First paragraph: I changed 'commonly called' to 'referred to'. Reason: the Saint Thomas Christians is no more an official appellation than Syrian Christians or Nasrani. Indeed officially the community is called Syrian Christians, and historically Nasrani. Saint Thomas Christians is more a recent coinage that probably took place during European missionary work and is not used much in official or even scholarly discourse. I wanted to give emphasize that Syrian Christian or Nasrani are not nick-names or colloquialism. I understand in an international setting Syrian Christian can be confusing and so can Nasrani. But in actuality and in official record those are the names used historically.
2. First Paragraph: I clarified that while the community is no doubt old, no one really knows exactly when it began, even if legends (the sources we have don't date more than 4/5 hundred years max) claim the 1st century A.D or even more and very dubiously specify exactly the year as A.D. 52.
3. I added Frykenberg as the source for the first paragraph- he is the most comprehensive source on the topic.
3. First portion of Early History and Tradition. Following edits made:
a. I clarified many sources don't list the names of the gramams that are purportedly converted but do mention the tradition of Brahmin conversions. The sources for the list is Frykenberg and Thoma.
b. I added one sentence to clarify why this legend has some significance- it was the basis or the rationality for a class system in place in the community for hundreds of years. This is clear from Frykenberg.
Josslined ( talk) 16:09, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
One rogue editor, ManofManyTrophies has been attempting do the following:
1. Add claims of a large number of Jews converting to christianity, and then adding false citations. 2. Remove content written on the basis of Prof Malekandathil's published research. Nasrani.net reproduced a chapter from his book. His claim is that the source is not reliable.
Prof Malekandathil is professor of history at JNU, I believe India's most recognized History department, and his book has been reviewed in international journals. His book can be accessed here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=rN69iFj1PJoC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=pius+malekandathil+&ots=zC_bWvYX01&sig=fC68k0GDnxQtWn0czgDFNhWH-F0#v=onepage&q=pius%20malekandathil&f=false
Other than engaging in a discussion, he has been vandalizing my talk page with dubious warnings. I would like to ask for a third party review. Cúchullain?
Josslined ( talk) 16:13, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
The authenticity of the entries on Wikipedia is very doubtful. Some scrupulous guys edit and and changes the entire history according to their likes and to gain popularity of their groups or families. St.thomas Indian community history is the most edited version on Wikipedia. Those who edit that page has no clues of the history of Indian st Thomas Christians. If they cannot find their family name on the page, they simply add to it . and try to make it authentic. Orthodox Christian history in India clearly states that Only SEVEN FAMILIES were initially converted to Christianity. When somebody doesn't find their family name in the list , he or she simply add their family name to it and deliberately omit the original families who are on the original list. THE ORIGINAL SEVEN FAMILIES ARE KALLI,KALLIANKAL,KALLARAKAL ,MANKI,MADATHALAN,,MATTAMUK AND MANAVASRI.I don't mind anybody add their family name to it, but don't try to draw the history according to their wishes. JayMaveli ( talk) 08:08, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
It just sounds absolutely ridiculous as every 2 seconds in reading that article, I see some sort of comparison between Brahmins and Syrian Christians or Nairs and Syrian Christians. The sentence 'on par with Brahmins' or 'at the same level as savarna hindus' is probably the most common sentence in that article. It sounds like those from the community wish they were Brahmins or Nairs. If you say that there isn't any caste promotional things in the article that try to lift the status of the community, I would be more than happy to provide evidence for that. 'Privileged Military Role'...this is complete baloney. ManofManyTrophies ( talk) 19:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Had you checked the source for your particular complaint you would see it is adequately backed up. The source is L.K. Ananthakrishna Iyer's Anthropology of Syrian Christians, which is available online. The required page is 55 and you can look it up here: https://archive.org/stream/AnthropologyOfTheSyrianChristians/Anthropology%20Of%20The%20Syrian%20Christians#page/n93
Josslined ( talk) 21:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Will also like to add, it is funny that
ManofManyTrophies is accusing me for defending 'caste promotion' in this article, given judging by recent 'contributions' to other articles, caste promotion seems to be his hobby.
See /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/ManofManyTrophies
Josslined ( talk) 21:39, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Many syrian catholics good "kudikidappu avakasham", were forced to do oozhiyam service until the proclamation of Dewan reddy Rao on December 29 1815!!
All cooked up stories, most Nasranis along with ezhavas were involved in Liquor trade which is by far the biggest evidence to support their common origins, The nambudiri origin claims are all fads just to escape casteist opression, No syrian christian became the dewans or army commanders of any kingdom until the british uplifted them by giving education and estates as return for their loyal services-all to dismantle the "nair dominance" in travancore in particular 106.51.20.13 ( talk) 16:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC) It should also be noted that the ORIGINAL NAMBUDIRIS who came from Ahichatra evangelised many fisherman and localites into BRAHMANISM-(source-elamkulam kunjan pillai) So in reality most nambudiris Syrian Catholics and ezhavas have the same blood [2] 106.51.20.13 ( talk) 16:32, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The most frequently edited pages of Wikipedia is St.Thomas Christians pages and it is protected too so that other vandals cannot edit this pages anymore. Only authorized WIKI VANDALS are allowed to edit this page. Some scrupulous editors edit these pages to gain popularity of their family name distorting the real facts.I don't mind adding their family name in to this pages, but my request is that DON'T OMIT the original few families that still in existence. The original SEVEN FAMILIES from MALANKARA (Kerala) that St.Thomas converted are KALLI,KALLARAKAL,KALLIANKAL,MANKI,MADATHALAN,MATTAMUKU and MANAVASRI. If anyone wants to add their family name they can do so BUT don't distort the real HISTORY. Remember history is history and there are records to prove it.ANYHOW WIKIPEDIA IS NOTORIOUS FOR FALSIFYING THE FACTS AND PEOPLE DONT RELIE ON WIKIFACTS. JayMaveli ( talk) 11:25, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Please don't include it. The Mar Thoma people is a subset of STC who follow anglican faith. It would be confusing to merge a subset with the set, as if all STC as Mar Thoma, which is not true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josslined ( talk • contribs) 21:42, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Josslined removed an established inline citation, which is accessible online, for the 4th time. The inline citation, The Jews of India: A Story of Three Communities by Orpa Slapak, was removed because it contradicts Josslined's main claim. That citation talks about Hebrew signatures found on a 9th century Christian inscription, that is still available in Kerala for verification. No indigenous person in ancient Kerala would have signed in Hebrew in the 9th century. It is a physical evidence, not any speculation.
In the 2nd century, Pantaenus from Alexandria visited a Christian community in India using the Gospel of Mathew in Hebrew language. We have evidence of travel between Egypt and ancient Kerala (See Silk Road trade routes) in the 2nd century. No indigenous people would have used that Gospel at that time. The 2nd century South Indian epic Manimekkalai talks about a non-Indian Jewish Christian community in ancient Kerala.
The lead section should be inclusive and neutral. So I have reverted some of the edits and restored the citation removed by Josslined. I welcome other Users who have experience in editing this article to decide on the correctness of the recent changes proposed by Josslined and whether they are really needed or not. Anyway, we should not remove the citations verifiable online.
The Caste System that existed in the northern part of India did not exist as such in Kerala in the early centuries. Some obviously unreliable wild guesswork, which was not there in the article before 2015, like different castes, number of people converted, etc. can be removed. Jossyys ( talk) 01:23, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
Users like Achayan or his sock puppet post many pictures in this article. Please remember to post pictures of relevance to the concerned matter. There are so many ceremonies and rituals among St Thomas Christians. Some of them are not common also. For example baptismal font is used in Malankara Church. I don't understand what is the importance of 21 beads on the thali as stated in the picture. Also would like to keep the pure east Syrian crowning ceremony picture of the Chaldean Syrian Church as this Church is not represented. In my opinion, all St Thomas Churches should be given some representation rather than posting pictures of a particular Church. Also I noticed that user Achayan or his sock puppet with IP address starting 202 is so much interested in projecting his family and his marriage photo on this site. He had inserted his family name Payyapilly along with the early families converted by St Thomas. Later I noticed it and removed it. Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 16:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
On division and defiance it is better to post the picture of MarThoma I as he was the primary person concerned with the Coonan cross oath and the first division in the Church. Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 16:16, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
The source you add is a reference work on Roman Catholic history and belief edited by the faculty of the Catholic University of America. It cannot be considered an independent source. It says that Theophilus (surnamed the Indian) — an Arian, sent by Emperor Constantius (about 354) on a mission to Arabia Felix and Abyssinia — is one of the earliest, if not the first, who draws our attention to them. Note the point, "our attention to them". In fact, Christians existed in Kerala before that period; however, they could not notice those Christians. I shall explain it. We have to note that Christianity was illegal in Rome until the 4th century AD, until AD 313 and Christians were persecuted in the Roman Empire until then. In AD 313, the Edict of Milan decriminalizing Christian worship was issued. So, only after that period, they started taking interest in Christianity. The Church of the East is a different Church. A particular Church's version cannot be considered the definition of another independent Church. We have to verify different independent sources.
The term 'Malankara' was used originally, not 'Malabar'. See the picture of the tomb that was removed from the article by Kokkarani the other day; the term 'Malankara Nasrani' is used. Jossyys ( talk) 00:32, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Your point: The Chronicle of Seert reports that a Bishop David of Basra engaged in missionary activity in India around 295/300, and it seems that Joseph of Edessa was named bishop of India by the catholicos of the Church of the East in 345.
This has been discussed a lot by many learned historians. The India mentioned here is NOT about St.Thomas Christians. Please go through more sources to clarify it. I have gone through a number of books and Encyclopedias and none of them state anything like you claimed. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 04:03, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Your point:it seems that Joseph of Edessa was named bishop of India by the catholicos of the Church of the East in 345.
Do you have any reference for your assertion that he was a bishop of St Thomas Christians? India mentioned at that time included a region east of Hindukush mountains.There was grater India and lesser India. Your claim is based on vague things. The reference you provided is NOT sufficient to accept your claim. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 04:10, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
The Chronicle of Seert (or Siirt) is an ecclesiastical history written in Arabic by an anonymous Nestorian writer, at an unknown date between the ninth and the eleventh century. How much reliability it has? Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 04:36, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Please stick to the TOPIC. We r not discussing about the dependence of the Church of the East on Antioch. You said St.Thomas Christians started relationship/communion with the Church of the East from 4th century. Please bring forth sufficient credible reference to prove it and convince others. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 05:22, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Even though that is NOT our topic, I just quote a part from page 19 of the book-Church of the East A concise history-Wilhelm Baum and Dietmar W. Winkler for your information.
The synod of 424 is widely regarded as the occasion on which the Church of the East stated its claim to autocephaly through the rejection of the “right of appeal” to the West. It has been assumed that in this year the Church of the East declared itself independent of the patriarch of Antioch. One must realize, however, that such a declaration of independence from the patriarch of Antioch need not have taken place, as this presupposes an earlier dependence. The Church of the East can be considered to have been autocephalous since the Synod of Isaac in Seleucia-Ctesiphon (410). Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 05:29, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
OK. The history-divisions diagram is changed accordingly. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician ( talk) 19:08, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
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Please edit
"The community was historically united in leadership and liturgy, but since the 17th century have been split into several different church denominations and traditions"
"[[Thomas_the_Apostle|Saint Thomas the Apostle]] reached India in AD 52, who was followed by [[Thomas_of_Cana|Knai Thoma]] in AD 345 along with 72 families and clergymen. The second Syrian migration to Kerala happened in AD 825 along with two bishops [[Mar_Sabor_and_Mar_Proth|Mar Sapor and Mar Aproth]] further strengthen the relationship between Saint Thomas Christians and the Syrian liturgy. The community was historically united in leadership and liturgy, but since the 17th century have been split into several different church denominations and traditions."
-- Gibies ( talk · contribs) 05:58, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
yrian Christians are Ezhava converts. This was even acknowledged by Fr Paul Thelekkatu{ priest of syro malabar sabha}. This article seems to have been written by people who can't digest their slave past and want to satisfy their vanity. These guys received Kudikidappu Avakasham from Nair feudal lords and Namboothiri jenmis. Even today they live under false notion that they are upper caste. Fact is that even today these guys are not allowed to enter temples or Purification rituals are performed if they enter... So much for their Nambudiri ancestry. Men can lie but his genes can never lie. Their genes are most similar to other South Indian communities (except nairs) [3]. This is an excerpt from Harappa DNA project Syrian Christians surnames like Thampan and Panicker were commonly used by Ezhavas. Both these communities were into liquor brewing Vallyathampran ( talk) 14:44, 30 December 2016 (UTC)Vallyathampran
References
I'm choosing to revert this page back to a previous version used in an antecedent revert, for the following reasons:
1. The edits by User:Mages Mathew lack justification, respect for the style guidelines and deleted or replace reference-supported text for no visible reason.
2. The section on genetic composition of Saint Thomas Christians, as it stands, is incorrectly formatted and lacks context. See Assyrian_people#Genetics for an example of well-contextualised genetic research, which describes the results in plain English.
This will make the recent change by User:Maproom void, sorry about that.
Maximilian Aigner ( talk) 13:53, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
We routinely disregard genetics studies in Indian articles relating to Indian social groups, for a bunch of reasons best highlighted in the post of Fowler&fowler that can be found here. Such studies might be appropriately mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia but they are not considered suitable here. That is why I have been removing information from this article and will continue to do so. I'm not even convinced that this is actually a reliable source. - Sitush ( talk) 11:54, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
I note that the source was briefly mentioned in this discussion. - Sitush ( talk) 14:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
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The St Thomas Christians church or "Malankara Sabha", was split into two because of Catholic Church authorities tried to tie it under its belt, now the details about the division is also seemed to have influenced by Catholics. Need to edit the details given about the divisions of Nasranis Syriannasrani ( talk) 15:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
The pattern of writing is not easy to read, can we edit to make it more lucid and simple to read ( 45.248.92.96 ( talk) 13:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC))
The result of the move request was: WP:SNOW not moved. This RM is clearly not going to pass. ( closed by page mover) GeoffreyT2000 ( talk) 02:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Saint Thomas Christians → Mar Thoma Nasrani – per WP:COMMON NAME, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) - Self identification Achayan ( talk) 20:56, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Iyer is probably C. P. Ramaswami Iyer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.13.95.139 ( talk) 10:37, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
1) Essenes was a community that existed between 2nd century and 1st century AD. Manimekalai may or may not refer to a community existing in South India. However there are no credible sources linking Essenes to the Nasrani community of today. Please provide reference to an academic text or paper. 2) Rabbinic Judaism barely influenced the Cochin Jews by the 16th century. There is no way it influenced in any meaningful way the Nasrani community particularly after the Portuguese Synod. I do grant that Portuguese did proscribe the following of some Jewish customs. 3) Judeo-christian roots. The Thoma Parvam mention some Jews who converted to Judaism, but very little academic sources linking the two communities (though there is some reason to believe the Knanayas have had some links).
I suggest these connections are speculative. At best they are new theories and not established knowledge.
If you disagree please provide references (including page numbers), and we can go through the academic sources together. Josslined ( talk) 19:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Both the catholic church as well as several archaeological evidences have thoroughly debunked the possibility of Thomas having come to India (if he even existed). https://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com/category/christian-mythology/
Can we update this wiki to reflect this please? this is largely a folklore created to give legitimacy to the belief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.44.177.134 ( talk) 05:10, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
No, the links you have provided are not neutral and are bias. Please add other sources as well. Manabimasu ( talk) 01:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
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Please change the link destination for "Savarna" to "Varna (Hinduism)" (unfortunately, the current link destination is only a disambiguation page which brings up irrelevant information about a spider in 'Page preview'). Thanks. 203.221.188.175 ( talk) 05:37, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Done However, none of the sources contained “Varna” but “Savarna” was not contextually appropriate. Manabimasu ( talk) 06:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Saint Thomas Christians focuses on the ethnoreligious group in India. However, Chaldean Christians trace also have St. Thomas roots. Would they be considered Saint Thomas Christians as well? Thoughts? Manabimasu ( talk) 17:56, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Several scholars of Jewish history have noted similarities and connections between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. Here are a few quotations from some of these scholars:
1) "There is at least one genre of Knanaya literature that exists also in the Jewish Malayalam corpus, the pallippattu, 'Synagogue song'." (Quote from - page 92 - Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
Note: The Malayalam term "Palli" is used to refer to the Syrian Christian "church" and also the Cochin Jewish "synagogue". Also note that the term ‘Syrian Christian’ was coined by the British. Historically, before the arrival of the British to India, the Cochin Jews were called ‘Malabar Juda Mappila’ and the so called Syrian Christians were called ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’. The term Mappila as used in Malayalam means ‘of West Asian Semitic descent’. It is better to use the term ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’ as this could reduce a lot of the confusion that arise from using the term ‘Syrian Christian.’
2) "Jussay and Weil compare some songs with the wedding songs of Knanaya Christians as suggestive of historic cultural relations between the two communities. (759) Johnson, with Daniel as her guidance in the language of the corpus, takes the songs as expressions of the socio-religious identity and ideology of Jewish women in Kerala. (760)” (Quote from – page 389 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
(Also refer to - Weil, Shalva J. (1982). "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cnanite Christian and the Cochin Jews of Kerela," Contributions to Indian Sociology 16: 175-196. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/006996678201600202 )
3) "There are genres of narrative songs about Biblical characters similar to the formulaic songs in the anthology of Knanaya Christian songs – the women's vattamkali pattu and the men's cintu. (786) • The synagogue motif suggests a linkage with the Knanaya Christians. It seems to be adopted into the Jewish Malayalam corpus from the Knanaya songs, where it stands for a more mature genre." (Quote from – page 402 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)
4) "Similarities between the rites and customs of the Syrian Christians (of Kerala) and the Jews of Kerala reflect a possible common origin in the ancient Middle East, and serve as heuristic evidence in support of the historical claims of both communities." (Quote from – page 88 – Ritual and Music in South India: Syrian Christian Liturgical Music in Kerala. Author(s): Israel J. Ross. Source: Asian Music, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1979), pp. 80-98. http://www.syriacstudies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Syrian-music-in-kerala.pdf)
5) In the paper ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue (1984), the Cochin Jewish writers Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:
"...the Syrian Christian (copper) plates with the signature of four Jewish witnesses in Judeo - Persian, which incidentally is the second oldest inscription in Judeo- Persian in the world, are a few of the ancient relics that can still be seen to remind one of the glorious past of this forgotten outpost of the Jewish world. " (Page 2 Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).
6) In another quote from their text the authors Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:
"There are at least a few instances of direct evidence of a Jewish settlement on the South - West Coast of India during the first century of the Christian era. In a wedding song of the ancient Christians of Malabar, mention is made of one Habban, a Jewish merchant, who was sent by a Royal decree to fetch a man who would build a temple more beautiful than the one King Solomon had built in Palestine. Habban accompanied by St. Thomas arrived in Cranganore in 55 A. D., St. Thomas was welcomed by a Jewish flute girl. He stayed in the Jewish quarter of the town and some Jews are said to have been baptized by him in Cranganore." (Page 3 – Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).
Additional note: The copper plates of privileges granted to the Cochin Jews and the Syrian Christians of Kerala by an ancient King of Kerala are similar with 72 privileges engraved on these copper plates. It is important to note that the copper plates in possession with the Cochin Jewish synagogue is in old Malayalam script ( Vattezhuthu), while the Kollam (Quilon) copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians is in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew. Ironically, it is the Hebrew script on the Kollam copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malabar Nasranis) that is often taken as conclusive evidence for the earliest presence of Jews in Kerala and India.
“The Kollam copper-plates inscription (849 ce) in Old Malayalam is the earliest evidence of Jews reaching the region.9” (page 55 - Gamliel, O. (2018) Back from Shingly: revisiting the pre-modern history of Jews ... Indian Economic and Social History Review, 55(1), pp. 53-76.)
The subgroup of the Saint Thomas Christians known as the Knanaya or Southists trace their lineage to Thomas of Cana
How would Knanaya come under the definition of Saint Thomas Christians while they themselves consider to be descendants of immigrants came from middle east on fourth century? -- 99v ( talk) 20:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Saint Thomas Christians's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "stthoma":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:23, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
seperately -- Should be separately. Will some suitably privileged person correct this. Thank you. 78.144.83.114 ( talk) 23:02, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Done Manabimasu ( talk) 00:52, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Hi @ Elizium23:, the user @lislecowls or @ Jennaiowan (I’m not sure if this is the same person using different accounts) is repeatedly breaking copyright rules for the three following images:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knanaya_Ichappadu_Kodukkal.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knanaya_Chantham_Charthal.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Knanaya_wedding_(1903).jpg#mw-jump-to-license
He or she is claiming that these are from a private family album from 1903 when in reality they are from the “Syrian Christian Marriage in India” (1985) a documentary film made by scholars Dr. Jacob Vellian, Dr. Jacob Kollaparambil, and Mr. Chummar Choondal. The film and its content are not free to use but copyrighted by the Hadusa institute. The film is even seen on YouTube used with permission by the Christian Musicological Society of India:
Aramaic Project-77 Syriac Christian Wedding in India” (I cannot post the link because of the spam filter)
I’ve mentioned this several times but the user is quite clearly deceptively making up claims about these images. I do not know if this is on purpose or they simply don’t know where this content is from and that it is copyrighted. I would like to request the images be deleted. Thomast48 ( talk) 19:52, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
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Please change below line from
According to legend, the community began with Thomas's conversion of Brahmin families, namely Pakalomattom, Sankarapuri, Kalli, Kaliyankal, Nedumpilly, Palackal, Panakkamattom, Kunnappilly, Vazhappilly, Payyappilly, Maliakkal, Pattamukku and Thaiyil. [1]
to
According to legend, the community began with Thomas's conversion of Brahmin families, namely Pakalomattom, Sankarapuri, Kalli, Kaliyankal, Koikara, Madapoor, Muttodal, Kottakara, Nedumpilly, Palackal, Panakkamattom, Kunnappilly, Vazhappilly, Payyappilly, Maliakkal, Pattamukku and Thaiyil. [2] [3] Of these families, Sankarapuri and Palamattam (Pakalomattom) were ordained and set apart for sacred orders and bishops. The priesthood has been practically hereditary in the two families, Sankarapuri and Palamattam, for several centuries with the inheritance in the female line [4]
Reference Link: https://archive.org/stream/AnthropologyOfTheSyrianChristians/Anthropology%20Of%20The%20Syrian%20Christians_djvu.txt 116.15.38.106 ( talk) 00:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
References
@ Kokkarani: You had removed three images. Since I didn't find any justifiable reason behind their removal, I have restored two of them namely, the images of Saint Thomas and Abraham of Angamaly. However, I think your edit summary on the removal of the timeline chart require a discussion. So what prompted you to its removal? Br Ibrahim john ( talk) 23:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
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These were Arya Brahmins(Indo-Aryans) who travelled to the Southern part of India and Accepted Christianity. 117.220.249.218 ( talk) 10:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)