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I just undid a revision that would have indicated that all the energy from a sail comes from the Bernoulli effect. This is false. Almost all the energy from a sail comes from simply deflecting the air. The Bernoulli has also been greatly over-stated in layman's explanations of the lift generated by aircraft wings. The edit was also problematic because it left a paragraph in the article with strikeouts. If you want to delete something, just delete it and explain yourself in the edit summary and the talk page. Mrees1997 23:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you expect to be true, Mrees1997, but most of the energy of a sail comes from the lifting action associated with Bernoulli effect of air over the airfoil. You can google "sail bernoulli" to find out more. Here's a reference -- [1] Short answer is: The reason a sailboat wing can pull a boat into the wind (for example, close hauling) is the Bernoulli effect of fluids. This is how most sails work. Sliceofmiami ( talk) 22:04, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
That article was an interesting read, thank you Nigelj. I appreciated the video at [2]. So let's revisit Bernoulli -- the principle states: "as the fluid velocity increases, the fluid pressure decreases." This causes lift. I'm not really sure I understand how the wiki is trying to deny this, but I'll revisit it again tomorrow. As far as I know, Bernoulli's principle does not hinge on "equal transit time" at all. From a sailor's point of view, Bernoulli's principle is simply stated as, "Sails suck." Sliceofmiami ( talk) 03:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
The section Sail#Sail_aerodynamics is pretty skimpy. I think that it would be better to beef that out with more on how airfoils work, the analogies between sails and wings, and explanations of the Bernoulli effect. Most people will hear about Bernoulli in the context of sails, and I think that it should be explained in the article on sails, which is of course referenced from the article on sailing. I'm not sufficiently into the aerodynamics of sails to add material, but I would be happy to review anything that anybody wishes to add.-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 14:56, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Hmm... I got kind of lost in the car analogy. Gautier, thanks for the information, and you are likely correct -- more references are better. What happened was someone removed all the "airfoil" references from the article. I reverted the changes. Then I found the Bernoulli section and posted a note (instead of starting a new section). Anyway, to keep us on track I'll repost the discussion: "(1) Sails are airfoils, and (2) airfoils derive lift based on Bernoulli's principle."
Maybe additional references in the main article will help readers as well. I added a few, please do the same. Sliceofmiami ( talk) 14:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
References
I just found the following text commented-out in the article. I have removed it from there and include it here in case anybody wants to make use of it. There was a comment by a previous editor who had said: "being BOLD and removing how-to content." -- Nigelj ( talk) 08:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
First and foremost:
Sailing requires respect for the risks of being on the water. All sailors therefore should be sensibly prepared. Most jurisdictions have certain minimum regulations that must be met as to equipment. When engaged in publicly organized activities they may be required to take additional precautions, as detailed by the authority which regulates the training or racing.
Safety measures may include:
Aside from what may be required by law or a sailing organization, real safety on the water comes from an informed awareness of risks involved and the exercise of reasonable steps to avoid dangers. A Man overboard situation is likely to be life threatening for any of several related reasons since the most likely cause is rough waters and weather conditions. These degrade the ability to maneuver easily, result in vastly different rates of drift caused by both wind and current to the boat and the unwilling swimmer, and in rough weather the reduced visibility makes fast and sure immediate action to be paramount as it is easy to lose sight of the swimming person. In some waters, including inland Lakes, hypothermia can be a major threat to life, so quick recovery of unwilling swimmers can be life-saving. This requires practice and situational awareness.
The guiding principle is to stop the boat (or slow it, if stopping is impossible) and immediately marking the location by tossing a PFD (personal floatation device) or Man Overboard Pole into the water. To achieve this, the helmsman releases the tiller and dumps (releases) the mainsheet.
A better approach is to heaving to. To do this, the helmsman pushes the tiller to leeward (away from the wind) and loosens the mainsheet, ignoring the jib sheets. (Spinnaker guy also dumped if applicable). The sailing boat will tend to come up to weather and the jib will back. When this backing happens, the tiller must be reversed to point towards the boom. - At this stage, the mainsail is loose and flapping and the jib is backed (or spinnaker floging). The yacht is now nearly stopped close to the location of the man overboard. Correctly executed, this maneuver can be completed in a few seconds. (A wheel steered boat would move the wheel to bring the yacht towards the wind and when the jib backs he reverses the wheel rotation promptly, while also dumping the mainsheet).
This should be an instinctive reaction of all helmsmen. It works on all points of sailing. At that stage the helmsman can accomplish the launching of a LifeSling, unless another crew member has previously done so. With a bit of luck, the yacht will be within the range of the cordage on the recovery apparatus.
I just removed a whole piece of text in this edit. It appears that the text was added by User:173.170.206.182 in this edit a week ago. Various people have tried to tidy it up since then, but really I think the cause was hopeless. It made a complex attempt at explaining the points of sail, nautical terms, and Lift (force). It made a bad job on lift, but that is not needed here as the term is linked and fully described in its own article. We have been through the Bernoulli effect for example recently above, and the topic is really too complex, with some people's views so entrenched, that its full explanation is best kept in one place, I believe. The added text was also completely uncited, and there are numerous texts on each of the topics that it attempted. -- Nigelj ( talk) 19:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I see that a paragraph has been added specifically about the Laser. I doubt that this is appropriate. Why mention that particular boat and not other very popular boats such as the Star, Soling, Hobie Cat, etc. etc. I propose that this para be deleted, otherwise we will have to expand to include a large number of popular designs. Comments?-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 07:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
The separate article on Heeling should probably be merged with the section in this article.-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 19:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the section on licensing is accurate. I only know the rules in 2 countries, US and Switzerland. In the US, licenses are not required unless you are operating as a professional skipper. In Switzerland, licenses are only required if the boat is above a certain size. Shouldn't this section use more tentative, less definitive, language?-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 09:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I'm not sure about this... some boats are equipped with ballast systems, can those ballast systems be used during a race?
One writer removed the note that racers use ballast. Here are the two works that I think are part of this.
And here are references to races that used movable ballast --
Sliceofmiami ( talk) 00:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm worried that this section seems to imply, a couple of times, that sailing boats are not subjects to the international colregs. This is legally and patently untrue. All vessels are subject to these under international law. Individual club and race 'sailing regulations' apply in addition to the colregs, not in place of them. To imply otherwise seems grossly irresponsible of us.
I think some editor(s) has got mixed up between the rules that may apply on a private course (for example an Olympic event) and what applies to the majority of yacht and dinghy racing that goes on on public waters. There is also the confusion that other members of a yacht-racing club may be under club rules to stay away from racers, but other users of the open water are under no such requirement: if they want to cruise, tow or fish through the middle of a sailboat race, they are perfectly entitled to do so, under nothing but colregs, except that these apply to all. This comes up time and again with offshore racing and such events as 'round the island' races where yacht racers come up against other seafarers and unreasonably expect all kind of strange behaviour from them. I think this section should be greatly clarified. -- Nigelj ( talk) 18:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Re:
"In some sailing events, such as the Olympic Games, which are held on closed courses where no other boating is allowed, specific racing rules such as the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) may apply. Often, in club racing, specific club racing rules, perhaps based on RRS, may be superimposed onto the more general regulations such as COLREGS or CEVNI."
This is incorrect. The RRS apply to nearly all organized racing events world wide, not just at events on closed courses. Some local club events may choose to use other rules, but this is not common. Classes and clubs frequently modify some of the rules, as permitted by RRS, and sometimes in other ways as well. When racing under RRS, the RRS replace COLREGS when meeting another boat racing under RRS, even a boat racing in a different event. However, "When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with" COLREGS (preface to RRS Part 2.)
Re Nigelj's comment on 13 April 2010: "the offending skipper could be prosecuted under law by anybody else,..." You can not be prosecuted under law for a violation of RRS. However, "responsibility for damages arising from any breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules..." (US Sailing prescription to Rule 68.) You may not be protested by "anyone else", only someone who "was involved in or saw the incident" RRS (60.1).
The article on the RRS also needs some work.
EricKent ( talk) 22:06, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
I recently edited the section on knots to bring the section in line with Wiki standards. My edit was reverted, and rather than get into an edit war I thought I'd give my reasons here.
The current section on knots is not in line with the Wikipedia manual of style. For instance
These are examples of peacock terms, weasel words, and editorializing. The last sentence reads like a |how-to guide or advice column.
We need to replace this section with something that is more neutral in tone and stick to the facts. If we're going to present opinions then we need to clearly indicate that they are someone else's opinions and provide attribution. Mr. Swordfish ( talk) 14:28, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Outdent. I see that the section has now been updated very nicely. I'd like to thank all editors for this good teamwork.-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 09:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge points of sail are defined relative to the true wind, not the apparent wind. Yoavt ( talk) 10:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Outdent. Dear Swordfish, I fully agree with you analysis and conclusions. We should leave both the Sailing and Points of Sails articles are they are now, without a clear explanation as to whether the point of sail refers to apparent or true wind. The term was no doubt coined in the days when boats did not go fast enough for there to be any significant difference between true and apparent wind, and today the term is probably used in different ways in different contexts, as you ably point out above.-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 10:25, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
In order to be an acclaimed sailor, you must more so understand how the wind works than how the water works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bronwyn owens ( talk • contribs) 19:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
The section "Beating or working" doesn't actually define what beating and working are. It describes a number of actions but doesn't define 'beating', then starts using 'beating' as if it was defined. I think 'beating' refers to the zig-zag maneuvering, and that is hinted at elsewhere in the article, but as someone who knows nothing about sailing I was left uncertain. I think all that is needed is a change from
"By this method of zig-zagging into the wind it is possible to reach any upwind destination."
to something like this:
"This method of zig-zagging into the wind is called beating (or working) and makes it possible to reach any upwind destination."
173.172.95.186 ( talk) 18:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
There is a new Manual of Style talk page discussion that questions the practice of referring to commercial and naval vessels as "she" and "her" taking place here. One or more editors have proposed a change to the Manual of Style which would require the use of the gender-neutral pronoun "it" when referring to vessels. Please take the time to express your opinion on this matter. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 00:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The section on maritime history seems to be a bit too European centric, Polynesian seamanship and equipment seemed to have been superior yet the Polynesians haven't been mentioned, nor is Ui-te-Rangiora. The Polynesian catamaran (7th century) was even superior than the best 18th century European vessels. See Talk:Maritime_history#Speed_of_historical_ship_types 91.182.55.169 ( talk) 08:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Polynesian seamanship was indeed excellent. Their craft design has given rise to western catamarans but they are faster not better and catamarans are still not suited to all boat usage and have unrecoverable dangers. Many many polynesians were drowned during their migrations and their technology was not a pancea for all the problems of stormy oceans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.31.202.145 ( talk) 12:15, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
In the section on Reducing sail, it says: 'newly developed vertical battens'. I question this statement. Firstly, it is not dated, so there's no way to know what it means by 'new'. Secondly, it doesn't provide any reference to justify the assertion. Thirdly, I don't believe the statement! I don't have a reference for the date - that's what I was looking for - but my memory tells me that I've known about vertical battens in mast-reefing mainsails for a long time. I believe they were invented by North, but I'm not sure of that. In any case, I believe the article is inaccurate and of poor quality in this specific regard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.184.42 ( talk) 18:40, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
I started to edit the Universal Rule page. Can we collaborate? Americascupfreak ( talk) 20:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I just undid a revision that would have indicated that all the energy from a sail comes from the Bernoulli effect. This is false. Almost all the energy from a sail comes from simply deflecting the air. The Bernoulli has also been greatly over-stated in layman's explanations of the lift generated by aircraft wings. The edit was also problematic because it left a paragraph in the article with strikeouts. If you want to delete something, just delete it and explain yourself in the edit summary and the talk page. Mrees1997 23:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you expect to be true, Mrees1997, but most of the energy of a sail comes from the lifting action associated with Bernoulli effect of air over the airfoil. You can google "sail bernoulli" to find out more. Here's a reference -- [1] Short answer is: The reason a sailboat wing can pull a boat into the wind (for example, close hauling) is the Bernoulli effect of fluids. This is how most sails work. Sliceofmiami ( talk) 22:04, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
That article was an interesting read, thank you Nigelj. I appreciated the video at [2]. So let's revisit Bernoulli -- the principle states: "as the fluid velocity increases, the fluid pressure decreases." This causes lift. I'm not really sure I understand how the wiki is trying to deny this, but I'll revisit it again tomorrow. As far as I know, Bernoulli's principle does not hinge on "equal transit time" at all. From a sailor's point of view, Bernoulli's principle is simply stated as, "Sails suck." Sliceofmiami ( talk) 03:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
The section Sail#Sail_aerodynamics is pretty skimpy. I think that it would be better to beef that out with more on how airfoils work, the analogies between sails and wings, and explanations of the Bernoulli effect. Most people will hear about Bernoulli in the context of sails, and I think that it should be explained in the article on sails, which is of course referenced from the article on sailing. I'm not sufficiently into the aerodynamics of sails to add material, but I would be happy to review anything that anybody wishes to add.-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 14:56, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Hmm... I got kind of lost in the car analogy. Gautier, thanks for the information, and you are likely correct -- more references are better. What happened was someone removed all the "airfoil" references from the article. I reverted the changes. Then I found the Bernoulli section and posted a note (instead of starting a new section). Anyway, to keep us on track I'll repost the discussion: "(1) Sails are airfoils, and (2) airfoils derive lift based on Bernoulli's principle."
Maybe additional references in the main article will help readers as well. I added a few, please do the same. Sliceofmiami ( talk) 14:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
References
I just found the following text commented-out in the article. I have removed it from there and include it here in case anybody wants to make use of it. There was a comment by a previous editor who had said: "being BOLD and removing how-to content." -- Nigelj ( talk) 08:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
First and foremost:
Sailing requires respect for the risks of being on the water. All sailors therefore should be sensibly prepared. Most jurisdictions have certain minimum regulations that must be met as to equipment. When engaged in publicly organized activities they may be required to take additional precautions, as detailed by the authority which regulates the training or racing.
Safety measures may include:
Aside from what may be required by law or a sailing organization, real safety on the water comes from an informed awareness of risks involved and the exercise of reasonable steps to avoid dangers. A Man overboard situation is likely to be life threatening for any of several related reasons since the most likely cause is rough waters and weather conditions. These degrade the ability to maneuver easily, result in vastly different rates of drift caused by both wind and current to the boat and the unwilling swimmer, and in rough weather the reduced visibility makes fast and sure immediate action to be paramount as it is easy to lose sight of the swimming person. In some waters, including inland Lakes, hypothermia can be a major threat to life, so quick recovery of unwilling swimmers can be life-saving. This requires practice and situational awareness.
The guiding principle is to stop the boat (or slow it, if stopping is impossible) and immediately marking the location by tossing a PFD (personal floatation device) or Man Overboard Pole into the water. To achieve this, the helmsman releases the tiller and dumps (releases) the mainsheet.
A better approach is to heaving to. To do this, the helmsman pushes the tiller to leeward (away from the wind) and loosens the mainsheet, ignoring the jib sheets. (Spinnaker guy also dumped if applicable). The sailing boat will tend to come up to weather and the jib will back. When this backing happens, the tiller must be reversed to point towards the boom. - At this stage, the mainsail is loose and flapping and the jib is backed (or spinnaker floging). The yacht is now nearly stopped close to the location of the man overboard. Correctly executed, this maneuver can be completed in a few seconds. (A wheel steered boat would move the wheel to bring the yacht towards the wind and when the jib backs he reverses the wheel rotation promptly, while also dumping the mainsheet).
This should be an instinctive reaction of all helmsmen. It works on all points of sailing. At that stage the helmsman can accomplish the launching of a LifeSling, unless another crew member has previously done so. With a bit of luck, the yacht will be within the range of the cordage on the recovery apparatus.
I just removed a whole piece of text in this edit. It appears that the text was added by User:173.170.206.182 in this edit a week ago. Various people have tried to tidy it up since then, but really I think the cause was hopeless. It made a complex attempt at explaining the points of sail, nautical terms, and Lift (force). It made a bad job on lift, but that is not needed here as the term is linked and fully described in its own article. We have been through the Bernoulli effect for example recently above, and the topic is really too complex, with some people's views so entrenched, that its full explanation is best kept in one place, I believe. The added text was also completely uncited, and there are numerous texts on each of the topics that it attempted. -- Nigelj ( talk) 19:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I see that a paragraph has been added specifically about the Laser. I doubt that this is appropriate. Why mention that particular boat and not other very popular boats such as the Star, Soling, Hobie Cat, etc. etc. I propose that this para be deleted, otherwise we will have to expand to include a large number of popular designs. Comments?-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 07:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
The separate article on Heeling should probably be merged with the section in this article.-- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 19:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the section on licensing is accurate. I only know the rules in 2 countries, US and Switzerland. In the US, licenses are not required unless you are operating as a professional skipper. In Switzerland, licenses are only required if the boat is above a certain size. Shouldn't this section use more tentative, less definitive, language?-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 09:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I'm not sure about this... some boats are equipped with ballast systems, can those ballast systems be used during a race?
One writer removed the note that racers use ballast. Here are the two works that I think are part of this.
And here are references to races that used movable ballast --
Sliceofmiami ( talk) 00:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm worried that this section seems to imply, a couple of times, that sailing boats are not subjects to the international colregs. This is legally and patently untrue. All vessels are subject to these under international law. Individual club and race 'sailing regulations' apply in addition to the colregs, not in place of them. To imply otherwise seems grossly irresponsible of us.
I think some editor(s) has got mixed up between the rules that may apply on a private course (for example an Olympic event) and what applies to the majority of yacht and dinghy racing that goes on on public waters. There is also the confusion that other members of a yacht-racing club may be under club rules to stay away from racers, but other users of the open water are under no such requirement: if they want to cruise, tow or fish through the middle of a sailboat race, they are perfectly entitled to do so, under nothing but colregs, except that these apply to all. This comes up time and again with offshore racing and such events as 'round the island' races where yacht racers come up against other seafarers and unreasonably expect all kind of strange behaviour from them. I think this section should be greatly clarified. -- Nigelj ( talk) 18:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Re:
"In some sailing events, such as the Olympic Games, which are held on closed courses where no other boating is allowed, specific racing rules such as the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) may apply. Often, in club racing, specific club racing rules, perhaps based on RRS, may be superimposed onto the more general regulations such as COLREGS or CEVNI."
This is incorrect. The RRS apply to nearly all organized racing events world wide, not just at events on closed courses. Some local club events may choose to use other rules, but this is not common. Classes and clubs frequently modify some of the rules, as permitted by RRS, and sometimes in other ways as well. When racing under RRS, the RRS replace COLREGS when meeting another boat racing under RRS, even a boat racing in a different event. However, "When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with" COLREGS (preface to RRS Part 2.)
Re Nigelj's comment on 13 April 2010: "the offending skipper could be prosecuted under law by anybody else,..." You can not be prosecuted under law for a violation of RRS. However, "responsibility for damages arising from any breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules..." (US Sailing prescription to Rule 68.) You may not be protested by "anyone else", only someone who "was involved in or saw the incident" RRS (60.1).
The article on the RRS also needs some work.
EricKent ( talk) 22:06, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
I recently edited the section on knots to bring the section in line with Wiki standards. My edit was reverted, and rather than get into an edit war I thought I'd give my reasons here.
The current section on knots is not in line with the Wikipedia manual of style. For instance
These are examples of peacock terms, weasel words, and editorializing. The last sentence reads like a |how-to guide or advice column.
We need to replace this section with something that is more neutral in tone and stick to the facts. If we're going to present opinions then we need to clearly indicate that they are someone else's opinions and provide attribution. Mr. Swordfish ( talk) 14:28, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Outdent. I see that the section has now been updated very nicely. I'd like to thank all editors for this good teamwork.-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 09:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge points of sail are defined relative to the true wind, not the apparent wind. Yoavt ( talk) 10:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Outdent. Dear Swordfish, I fully agree with you analysis and conclusions. We should leave both the Sailing and Points of Sails articles are they are now, without a clear explanation as to whether the point of sail refers to apparent or true wind. The term was no doubt coined in the days when boats did not go fast enough for there to be any significant difference between true and apparent wind, and today the term is probably used in different ways in different contexts, as you ably point out above.-- Gautier lebon ( talk) 10:25, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
In order to be an acclaimed sailor, you must more so understand how the wind works than how the water works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bronwyn owens ( talk • contribs) 19:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
The section "Beating or working" doesn't actually define what beating and working are. It describes a number of actions but doesn't define 'beating', then starts using 'beating' as if it was defined. I think 'beating' refers to the zig-zag maneuvering, and that is hinted at elsewhere in the article, but as someone who knows nothing about sailing I was left uncertain. I think all that is needed is a change from
"By this method of zig-zagging into the wind it is possible to reach any upwind destination."
to something like this:
"This method of zig-zagging into the wind is called beating (or working) and makes it possible to reach any upwind destination."
173.172.95.186 ( talk) 18:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
There is a new Manual of Style talk page discussion that questions the practice of referring to commercial and naval vessels as "she" and "her" taking place here. One or more editors have proposed a change to the Manual of Style which would require the use of the gender-neutral pronoun "it" when referring to vessels. Please take the time to express your opinion on this matter. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 00:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The section on maritime history seems to be a bit too European centric, Polynesian seamanship and equipment seemed to have been superior yet the Polynesians haven't been mentioned, nor is Ui-te-Rangiora. The Polynesian catamaran (7th century) was even superior than the best 18th century European vessels. See Talk:Maritime_history#Speed_of_historical_ship_types 91.182.55.169 ( talk) 08:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Polynesian seamanship was indeed excellent. Their craft design has given rise to western catamarans but they are faster not better and catamarans are still not suited to all boat usage and have unrecoverable dangers. Many many polynesians were drowned during their migrations and their technology was not a pancea for all the problems of stormy oceans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.31.202.145 ( talk) 12:15, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
In the section on Reducing sail, it says: 'newly developed vertical battens'. I question this statement. Firstly, it is not dated, so there's no way to know what it means by 'new'. Secondly, it doesn't provide any reference to justify the assertion. Thirdly, I don't believe the statement! I don't have a reference for the date - that's what I was looking for - but my memory tells me that I've known about vertical battens in mast-reefing mainsails for a long time. I believe they were invented by North, but I'm not sure of that. In any case, I believe the article is inaccurate and of poor quality in this specific regard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.184.42 ( talk) 18:40, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
I started to edit the Universal Rule page. Can we collaborate? Americascupfreak ( talk) 20:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)