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Can someone give me the rational on placing this in History of Azerbaijan? I don't get to understand why. Anatolmethanol 21:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I checked Dowsett, I don't find the relevent section where he says he was Albanian. Can someone quote? Anatolmethanol 03:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Anatolmethanol, refer to the article by C. J. F. Dowsett. "A Neglected Passage in the "History of the Caucasian Albanians"", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 19, No. 3. (1957), p.463:
Actually the footnote on page 462 of Dowsett's article, referring to an Armenian author Daghbaschean, says:
So, this basically means that Sahl was NOT the son of Smbat Bagratuni. As for Smbat not being an uncommon name in Armenian history, this name was also known in Albania and is even used in contemporary Azerbaijan, with historian Professor Sumbatzade being just one example. Similarly, many other names in Armenian history were also used or originated in other countries, not to say that many Armenian names today have clearly Turkish, Persian and/or Arabic roots, such as Kocharian, Chilingarian, Vazirian, Arzumanian, etc. and even Daghbaschean (cited above). In conclusion, nowhere does Dowsett say that Sahl was Armenian. Minorsky's reference in Caucasica IV (p. 506) completely closes the issue by saying: "Exact origin of Sahl is not explicitly stated". Minorsky also cites a Georgian chronicle, according to which Sahl's predecessors might have come from Taron in Georgia, but Dowsett also specifically dismissed this Taron reference, and added Arcruni and John Catholicos that Sahl was an Albanian prince. Atabek 13:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I fail to understand how this supports your point, if anything you admits that the source you have provided in the article does not claim him to be Albanian, claiming that Dowsett does not say he is Armenian does not mean he claims he is Albanian. If anything he is using the source which claims him to be Armenian. Also, I wonder why you have not bolded the rest. I mean, you have used a misquote to support it while the quote itself place it as the son of Smbat. And I am amazed that Grandmaster is questioning that Smbat was Armenian. Is he serious? (if he is, he could check Minorsky p.511, who calls him Armenian King, but I didn't know that even this was debated) I also fail to see how modern Azerbaijani uses of the term has any relevency here, neither your exemples, that's original research and is not allowed. Family name and first name are not the same thing.
Further, you are misinterpreting what Minorsky is saying, what he means is that the true lineage of Sahl is not known, the end of the short paragraph is explicit: ...and is likely to refer to the home of Sahl's ancestors. Minorsky actually concludes it by relating to what was reported on the deportation of Armenian kings, which included Sahl. Neither Dowsett neither Minorsky contradict the wide range of sources placing him as Armenian, to the contrary. Do you have another source? Anatolmethanol 14:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You don't need to put the caps on, I can read. Let me repeat this. The uses of Albanian princes is meant to say the princes of Albania. The source in question say the son of Smbat, who is Armenian. I doubt you will find a source which will claim that Smbat was not Armenian. When you word that that he was either Albanian or Armenian, it mislead the reader into believing that he was either ethnically Armenian or ethnically Albanian. When we say Armenian we mean ethnically, while here Albanian is used as in 'prince of Albania.' I think it makes a differences. He was one of the princes of Albania, but sources place him as Armenian. You claim that neither does Dowsett nor Minorsky claim him to be Armenian. I tend to disagree there for several reason. First, the quote you have used to claim him to be ethnically Albanian was in fact a misquote, the actual quote does place him as Armenian. Smbat being Armenian, his son would be Armenian. Dowsett on the other hand, in the footnote explicitly say that it is not because his name was Smbat that it meant that he was his son, since the name Smbat was not uncommon for an Armenian. So if anything, both do make suggestions on him being ethnically Armenian and does not contradict the rest of the sources which support the position that he was Armenian. So, having said that, I don't see how Doswett could be used to claim him to be ethnically Albanian. Please explain. Anatolmethanol 15:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you understood my point, possible neither what Dowsett wanted to say here. I know it is not the same Smbat, I was talking about Smbat Bagraduni, I gave the exemple from Minorsky of a following rule, to show Smbat is Armenian. You have to interprete what I said in light of Dowsett point in the footnote. Let me explain, it is claimed that Sahl was the son of Smbat, which people assumed to be Smbat Bagraduni. In the footnote, Dowsett say that it is not as if Smbat was that rare a name for Armenians and for this reason it does not mean that the source is talking about the Bagraduni. Smbat is actually an Armenian name, for the Sahl to claim the trone of Albania or Georgia he had to change his name, because Smbat is Armenian but its Albanian or Georgian version when written in latin alphabet has an 'u'. The reason why the Armenian version is written Smbat is because there is another later, the 'et' in Armenian which is left out in the transliteration. In all his works Dowsett actually leave that letter out not only for Smbat. Dowsett never denies, but actually confirms the Smbat in question was Armenian, but claims that it was not necessarly the Bagraduni. Anatolmethanol 16:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You have been provided with references above:
Again Smbat in Albanian and Armenian was spelled the same way, not with "n". "N" is the spelling of his name in Arabic sources. In fact, even in contemporary Azeri, it's Sumbat not Sunbat.
We are yet to see your references to say that Smbat was ethnically Armenian, citing a page and a precise quote, please, aside from just saying "he was Armenian". Please, provide those sources, just like I did above, before we may proceed in further discussion. Thanks. Atabek 16:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I feal that this discussion is going nowhere and we're turning in circle. You should have searched the matter a little bit more before asking me sources. The article arleady contain sources about him being Armenian, while the source you provided does not support your assertions.
But here few more.
He calls him an Armenian ruler.
More.
Do those satisfy you? Or perhaps do you want more sources?
Comming to you three points, I don't think you read me carefully, those sources don't do what you claim. Dowsett does not dismiss him being Armenian, he actually suggest in his footnote him being Armenian. In fact, the only place in the entire paper where he relate to his ethnicity was on the footnote, where he say that Smbat is not such an uncommon name among Armenians to suggest that he was from the Bagraduni's. Your second point does not make sense, when Dowsett say he was an Albanian prince, he means the Prince of Albania not that he was Albanian by language or by ethnicity. Those years Albania was already Armenized. As for Minorsky, I have already repeated that Minorsky is talking about his lineage not his ethnicity. The end of the short paragraph makes it clear as he suggest a lineage.
To answer Grandmaster, Smbat is Armenian by any published sources. If you claim that it is not an Armenian name, then perhaps you are not that versed in the Subject. Dowsett present this as an established fact and which is not dismissed by anyone. The reason why it is the Armenian version of the name is because of the et missing in the latin transliteration while it is fully present for both Albanian and Georgian transliteration. In fact the Albanian version is Georgian influenced, because there is no et in Georgian, they rather use the u.
On your second point, you are not understand the context in which Dowsett said that, I thought it was clear. Read the text which is footnoted. Dowsett point was in relation to the claim that Smbat was not a Bagraduni, and in his footnote he claims that Smbat was not an uncommon name by Armenians. He is implicitly saying him to be Armenian. The Bagraduni's were Armenian, and he say that it is not as if Smbat is that an uncommon name among Armenians to assume that he is Bagraduni. Nowhere have you nor Atabek provided any explicit source nor anything contradicting with the claim that Sahl was Armenian. Sources which does not say explicitly the ethnicity can not be used to dismiss what scholarly works by the large claim. It is like using a source which does not say that the current president of Armenia is ethnically Armenian to be used to claim he may not be in parallel to another source which says he is. In any case, I don't see what Atabek and your problem is. I want to expend the article, but if we can't even settle on the ethnicity of the person even though both of you have provided no source to substenciate both of your positions I don't see how I can improve this article. Anatolmethanol 17:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Anatolmethanol, this is a summary of my new edits [1], please, show me item by item, where did I remove the words Armenia or Armenians? Please, assume good faith. Thanks. Atabek 18:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The top Western expert on Caucasian Albania was CJF Dowsett, who translated Movses Kalankatuaci's "History of the Country Aluank" into English, and was also, by the way, a Professor Emeritus of Armenian Studies at Oxford. Bosworth was NOT an expert on Caucasian Albania at all. Atabek 07:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
By the early eighth century, most of Albania had come under the rule of the caliphate, and a process of Islamization of the population began, which continued under the regional dynasties of the Sheddadids and Maziadids. A number of potentates in the Transcaucasus — Armenian, Georgian, and Muslim — all continued to lay claim to the kingship of Albania until the twelfth century, although for all intents and purposes, Caucasus Albania had passed into history by the ninth century. (An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires by James Stuart, Olson Greenwood Press (1994) p.27
This is the background history of the period, which anyone who read Dowsett's specialized papers (translations of Armenian texts and analysis) should know, and he guesses that they do know. It is quite easy to manipulate texts with terms... It has to be understood in the light of the background history. Sahl, for instance, was an Armenian who assumed the title of ruler of Albania. The footnote is --Daghbaschean takes Sahl to be the son of the contemporary generalissimo of Armenia, Smbat Bagratuni; this is completely without foundation and his surprise that "Sahl is nowhere called the son of Smbat the Generalissimo but merely the son of Smbat" is wholly unjustified. Smbat is hardly an uncommon name in Armenian history-- assumes that the reader knows already that he is Armenian.
But the fact that you have removed in your first quotation the word son suggest that you knew that this would have made a lot of differences in the interpretation. It can not be only a misquote because you did not only remove son; you actually replaced the word.
Also, your assumption on what Minorsky is saying about his origin is wrong. As Fadix has stated, the paragraph in which Minorsky uses that word leaves no doubt that he is talking about the genealogy. Dowsett also raises it when he writes: Apart from minor details (from the linguistic point of view its support for the form patgos is welcome), it implies a reasonable date for the death of Khalid, gives us a plausible genealogy for the prince Sahl i Smbatean whose origin has hitherto been obscure,... (p.468) The quote is refreshing right? What more? He calls the prince Smbatean. He calls him by his Armenian name. The reason why he translated it to Smbatean and not Smbatian is because in Armenian, Armenian endings are not written with an i but the yetch, which is translated in historic documents as e rather than i His name's ending is Armenian. But obviously, since both of you are not editing in good faith, it is reasonable to assume that there is nothing which will prevent the distortion of the whole thing just to make the word Armenian disappear or to merely present it as an opinion. -- Davo88 22:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Dowsett does not say that Sahl was Albanian Atabek, thats simply your interpretation. Yes, Sahl was an Albanian prince, but this does not mean he was Albanian himself. Albanian prince in this context means a prince of Albania. Philip the Arab was also Roman Emperor, but he was not Roman (Italian) in descent. Hajji Piruz 02:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I know it says "Albanian Prince" but this does not mean that Sahl was Albanian. This means that he was simple a prince of Albania. Philip the Arab was referred to as a Roman Emperor, yet this does not mean he was of Roman descent, he was of Arab descent. Hajji Piruz 17:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Circular and endless discussion, Vartan, I don't think you need to reply here. By now, if he was contributing in good faith, he should've understood it. Armenian scholar, not as in Armenian scholar. I think this resumes the situation... no need to add more. I will be fixing this article in the near future. - Fedayee 00:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree that article should be fixed but not by using socks-- Dacy69 16:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC) I rv'ed new editor. Current version accomodate both version.-- Dacy69 16:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
You are misinterpreting Hewsen... Vartan already explained above. Hewsen is not saying that Haykazuni does not mean Armenian, he is answering an Armenian scholar who thinks that since it means descendant of Hayk, it would mean the house of Armenian origin (from the first descendant), from where Armenians allegedly started. Hewsen, to that, answers that this is not what Haykazuni means but rather that it is so old that one can not remember. He is not questioning that a Haykazuni is an Armenian; he is just questioning a word by word interpretation of it. In fact, he can't because when the term is used is to describe lineage in regions outside of the geographic Albania. From Dowsett’s translation, the Sahl was born in Siunik, which was in Armenia, not Albania.
I don't think you have read Hewsen’s paper carefully, because he admits those regions were Armenian during those periods.
That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. Contrary to Bunjatov, there is no evidence that any of this literature was translated into Armenian from another language and his assertion that the Armenian Church caused the Albanian literature to be translated into Armenian and then had originals destroyed is a flight of facy. p. 34
To repeat myself, Hewsen is answering to the claim that since it means Hayk Descendents, it means that the place was originally Armenian. Hewsen claims that Mnac'akanyan, on the other hand, oversimplifies as well. He is certainly wrong in claiming that the lands between the Kur and the Arax were originally Armenian, and he, too, underestimates both the ethnic complexity of the region in question and how late the aborigines must have survived as distinct peoples, whether under Armenian or Albanian rule.
So, you have quoted out of context Hewsen, much like Dowsett is quoted out of context. Dowsett never denies that the Sahl was Armenian, in fact even Hewsen claims that on that spot, the Partav region, the so-called Albanians were Armenians, and Dowsett’s translation says the Sahl was from Siunik, plain in Armenia. Dowsett’s footnote also explains in his footnote, not to say he calls him from his Armenian name. Albanian does not mean ethnically Albanian, this has been explained to you by providing Dowsett’s own words supported by various other materials. Now would you please stop pushing us in a circular discussion? - Fedayee 05:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, I can not understand how you can misinterpret every single author presented here. Hewsen does nothing such, the paper in question criticises two scholars, one Armenian, the other Azerbaijani. He never claims that it does not mean Armenian, he answers to the claim that the region surrounding Siwnik was from where Armenians come from, their native region. He is answering there to the erroneous use of the word to assume that it was from where Hayk comes from. He never questions that it means Armenian. And no, he does not say that the original people there were Albanian, he say that many people lived there, one of which will be founding an Albania.
As for Dowsett, you have yet to address his footnote, not that long ago, Atabek was on the other article saying that Armenian scholar does not mean ethnically Armenian and we are in the same situation. You are pulling my legs, the footnote reinterprets the sentence and you can ask any third party editor about that and he will say the same thing, please stop pushing us in a circular discussion. - Fedayee 16:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh boy, it is really difficult to maintain my cool with your provocations. Was Dowsett an Armenian? Answer to this question, his biography presented in The Independent claims him to be an Armenian scholar. Was he Armenian? Prove that The Independent article is saying he was an English Brits. The article only says Armenian scholar. You are twisting things to your advantage forcing us in an endless circular discussion and then when someone doesn't justify his edit (like in Marshall's case) because he is not interested to be engaged in a worthless, senseless, endless discussion you report him. If on the other hand, the person does decide to discuss, it is a lost cause.
I will repeat it, in the intro of the paper; the author implies he is covering Armenian history, not Albanian, not Parthian, not Chinese, but Armenian. I will requote what Davo has quoted, those are the first lines of the paper: The land of the Aluank' or Caucasian Albania, whose geography and customs already attracted the attention of Strabo and Pliny, represents the easternmost part of the Armenian sphere of influence. He is covering the subject as part of Armenian history. He calls Smbat by his Armenian name, with the ian(ean) ending, does not call him Sunbat from the Georgian or Albanian name. And then explains to the claim that it was not Smbat Bagraduni, that the name is hardly uncommon in Armenian history.
To this adds, all the rest of the sources which merely teach the history of the region that one has to know to accurately interpret the piece, like when Hewsen says: That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. Contrary to Bunjatov, there is no evidence that any of this literature was translated into Armenian from another language and his assertion that the Armenian Church caused the Albanian literature to be translated into Armenian and then had originals destroyed is a flight of facy.
If you believe that someone is Azerbaijani, Armenian, Albanian by blood, this is your problem, but this is not a position maintained by historians, certainly not Dowsett. Sahl was from Siunik, outside the realm of Albania, the princeship lineage of Siunik and the Bagraduni are believed according to those lists to have been the same as those of Albania, Sahl should have had some blood relationship with the ancient princes of Albanian to claim the throne. Those are only blood justified claims for the throne, nothing more. It has nothing to do with ethnicity. Sahl was controlling a culturally Armenian place, he spoke Armenian with his subjects, the materials written during his ruling by his subjects from the region, were exclusively Armenian. He is claimed to be Armenian, period. If please, please, would you stop bringing this up again and over again? If you don't believe what I am saying is accurate, request a third opinion but obviously you are wrongly interpreting the sources. - Fedayee 23:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Sahl is the son of Smbat. That is why he is called Sahl ibn Smbat and Dowsett calls him Sahl Smbatian. Plus Dowsett is using Armenian and Haykazuni equivalently. This is beginning to be a waste of time for everyone involved. Most, if not all, sources call him Armenian, Dowsett makes it clear he was Armenian, etc...
No other sources have been presented that say Sahl was Albanian. I have taken the initiative to end this dispute by saying that he was an Albanian prince in the first sentence, while also making it clear that he was Armenian. Hajji Piruz 16:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it isn't my fault that Fadix's arguments made sense and yours did not. You are the one who's creating the dispute. Dowsett claimed him to be ethnically Armenian, in the intro he says that it is on the Eastern sphere of Armenian influence, and calls him by his Armenian name, and on the footnote implicitly tells him to be ethnically Armenian. I told you before to bring a third party editor, instead you pushed the argument into a circular never ending maze. The only possible explanation I can think of, is that the territory he controlled is now the region of Nagorno-Karabakh, and for political reasons you're mudding down his Armenian ethnicity. VartanM 23:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I have rephrased the sentence accordingly suites the article. -- 83.181.229.63 21:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Rephrased again he says he is a albanian prince. Not sure if we should assume he was prince of Albania, since the source doesn't say that. Most sources say he is Armenian anyway.
An editor should not add dispute tags without making a good faith effort to explain why he thinks they are needed. Other editors should not remove the tags without making a good faith effort to address the issues raised (denying that an issue exists is not sufficient). When in doubt, ask for comment or a third opinion. Thatcher131 01:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
How about we avoid entirely for a while the issue of Sahl's ethnicity. Thatcher131 02:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The antecedents of Sahl i Smbatean
In this passage, Sahl i Smbatean, who is called Eransahik at III 19, is said to be of ' the Zarmirhakan family of kings '. This indicates that Sahl was the descendant of the Zarmirh Eransahik who was the sole survivor of the Eransahik family when they were treacherously exterminated by Vardan K'aj of the Mihrakan dynasty and was spared only because he was the husband of one of the daughters of Vardan's family... Suggestions that Sahl was a Bagratid or that his family came originally from Tarbn are to be discarded, or at least revised, in the light of the present passage, which is the only explicit statement on Sahl's origin, hitherto a mystery, found in Armenian sources. One cannot exclude the possibility, however, of this eminently respectable Albanian genealogy having been falsely assumed by Sahl or invented by the historian or his source in an attempt to legitimize Sahl's claim to the throne of Albania.
Unfortunately I can not find anything out about the Zarmirhakan family of kings as to whether they were Albanian or Armenian. That would help.
I take "Albanian prince" to mean prince of Caucasian Albania, which is not the same as saying he was born in Albania. On the other hand, I do not put much faith in reading between the lines and making inferences from spelling choices made in translation. Doswett says in the now-famous footnote that there is no foundation for the belief that Sahl was a Bagratid and the son of generalissimo Smbat Bagratuni. But Dowsett does not explicity say that Sahl was Armenian, which he could have said if he wanted to. Instead, Dowsett says Sahl was from the Zarmirhakan family of kings, which is an eminently respectable Albanian genealogy but which might be false. This is of course the first translation of a passage from the Patmut'iwn Aluanic by Movses Kalankatuaci that has been missing from previous trnaslations since 1895, and it is also the only statement of Sahl's origins in an Armenian source. If someone knows what the Zarmirhakan family of kings is, then I think we should include that along with the statement that it might have been invented to legitimize his rule. Otherwise, I think we should admit ignorance on the issue of Sahl's birth. Thatcher131 03:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Minorsky in Caucasica IV writes
A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time.
So Sahl is Armenian, right? (Minorsky thinks Sahl is a mask for his Christian name.) But maybe not. Also from Minorsky,
Opposite Qaraja-dagh, on the northern bank of the Araxes and up to the course of the Kur, there lies another hilly tract which, at the time in question, was studded with small principalities. ... The southern bank of the Kur seems to have depended on the Mihranids, but the situation here was unstable. Beyond the Kur we find the considerable Muslim principality of Sharvan, a survival from Sasanian times, but now ruled by the family of the Yazidids of the Shayblni tribe. West of Sharvln was situated Qabala, with a mixed population (including even some Khazars) but ruled by a Christian prince. In the west it bordered on Shakki, also with a Christian dynasty. The origins of the princes of Qabala and Shakki are little known, but in view of constant intermarriage we have to assume their manifold links with the princes of the right bank.
So he doesn't really know either. Then later,
The exact origin of Sahl is not explicitly stated. Thomas Artsruni, iii, § 11, calls him ruler of Shak'E, and we must remember that the Hudud al-'Alam, after having spoken of Shakki, refers (§ 36, 32) to ' Sunbatman, a town at the farther end of Shakki, with a strong fortress '. The name Sunbat-man means "Sunbat's house" and is likely to refer to the home of Sahl's ancestors.
So his ancestral home is in Shaki? Interestingly, Minorsky debunks the claim that Sahl was from the "eminently respectable" Zarmirhakan family,
The title Eranshahik, under which the historian of Albania presents him in this passage, is probably given him in anticipation, for immediately after, and under the same year [822], Moses speaks of the murder of the last Mihranid Varaz-Trdad by a certain Ter-Nerseh P'ilippean. We do not know whether the latter acted on behalf of Sahl, but Sahl surely profited by the crime, as he assumed
the title of the victim. As Varaz-Trdad is called the last Mihranid, it is clear that Sahl did not belong to that house.
Ultimately, the problem is that neither Dowsett nor Minorsky ever comes out and says where Sahl was from. In fact, they go to great lengths to explain why they don't know who Sahl was. You can selectively read them both to support either view. Since neither authority makes an explicit statement, any reading between the lines to draw conclusions is original research. Thatcher131 04:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Wow, don't drink and edit Wikipedia guys, Grandmaster I apologize if I somehow offended you. But you accused me of OR, when it was a different user who made that comment. I'll get back to you on you on the Arabic sources. VartanM 20:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Dowsett says that by 835, Sahl had revolted against the Arabs and was ruler of Arran. (Apologies, this is copied from a pdf file and I have not cleaned it up)
According to the Arab historians Sahl, although he had been an ally of Babek (Baban), was prevailed upon by Afsin to deliver up the fleeing rebel who had taken refuge with him.6 For this service Sahl received, according to Mas'udi, a royal robe, a crown, and a horse, and was exempted from tribute, all of which amounts to an official investiture as ruler of Albania.8 The exemption from tribute must have been no more than official acceptance of the status quo, for already in 835, when Muhammad b. Suleymiin al-'Azdi al-Samarqandi arrived to govern Armenia, Sahl had revolted against the Arabs and made himself master of Arran ; this fact is discreetly ignored by the caliph in 837. The Armenian historian Vardan speaks only of a monetary reward : ' Sahl, son of Smbat, seizes Baban and receives from Ap'sin gifts of a thousand kiir of silver and yet another hundred thousand '.2 hlovs&' statement that Sahl received sovereignty over Armenia, Georgia, and Albania is, of course, a gross exaggeration. Sahl was not even sole ruler of Albania, and T'ovma Arcruni calls him only ' lord of Sak'B '.3 Among the prisoners captured by Bo&a al-Kabir in 854 John Catholicos and T'ovma Arcruni mention three Albanian princes : Atrnerseh, lord of XaCBn,6 Sahl son of Smbat, lord of Sak'~a, nd Esay Abu Mu&, lord of K't'is in Arqax.7 After the murder of the Mihrakan prince Varaz Trdat in 821/2,s the last vestige of political unity disappeared from Albania ; his murderer Nerseh, son of P'ilippz, although he is said to have stolen all the possessions of Varaz-Trdat, does not appear to have played any subsequent role in the destiny of Albania. The Albanian princes seem to have ruled independently, although Atrnerseh of XaCEn was probably the most powerful ;
Comments? Thatcher131 03:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This is going to far. Really, Grandmaster and Atabek have not provided a single source that says Sahl was Albanian, yet they still make the claim. Every source I have checked, including Encyclopaedia Iranica, says that Sahl was Armenian.
How far will this go? Hajji Piruz
Question: Why do you call everything OR? Do you know what constitutes OR (OR stands for original research)?
Its pretty funny Atabek that you are using Dowsett once more. It has been cleared that Dowsett has called Sahls family Armenia and that Albania in that context does not define ethnicity.
But hey, by all means, continue with the circular argument, feel free not do actually address anything presented by the other parties. Hajji Piruz 23:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The article claims that Afshin, the Persian prince of Oshrusana, was a Turk. This is wrong. Afshin (as the name suggests) was an Iranian Muslim general who served the Abbasid caliph. He is known as the great traitor who betryed Babak and the Persian nationalist movement, by fighting Babak and freeing some 7000 Arab prisoners.
Afshin's army consisted of a large number of Turkish slave soldiers, but he himself was an Iranian. His father was among the powerful Iranian Muslim advisors of the Abasids, just like the famous Barmakid family. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.83.128.189 ( talk) 18:49:32, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
[9] [10] [11] [12] I am not going to get involved on the Sahl issue here, but there is no reason to bring Afshin to the debate. -- alidoostzadeh 19:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I got a pretty concrete source calling him Armenian. If a turkish book called him Armenian and we had several to start with, this is a closed and shut case. Hetoum I 19:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
(statement redacted) I restored to previous Arabic title, as Sahl Sunbat was mostly known from Arabic sources, cited by Minorsky, CJF Dowsett, C. E. Bosworth and other authoritative scholarly sources. Please, discuss your changes and do not remove sources to important and authoritative references. Apart from Sahl being mentioned in Armenian sources, no reliable source so far says he was Armenian, they only refer to Armenian version of his name. Also refer to thread [15] by User:Thatcher131, yet again requesting reference that would show that Sahl was ethnic Armenian. Atabek 11:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, Bosworth reference is available at Google Books here, the main body of material uses ibn Sunbat while citing in footnote only that in Armenian it sounds Smbatean. It does not mean that Sahl was Armenian, it's the references to him came from Armenian sources. Again, I don't see why legitimate CJF Dowsett and Minorsky references were removed in your edit, both authors are more authoritative on the subject than those currently listed on the page. Again, no proof that Sunbat was Armenian. Regarding calling my comments as "abrasive answers", assume good faith. Atabek 05:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I see no problem in both the Armenian and Arabic names being shown in the article, however, since he was Armenian it makes sense to use his Armenian name as the title, right? Hajji Piruz 21:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored Thatcher's version. I don't see that subsequent edits had a consensus on talk. I kept Ali's edit though for the sake of avoiding another ethnicity dispute. -- Grandmaster 12:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Eupator and Vartan, not sure, what scholarly authority either of you represent vis-a-vis CJF Dowsett, Professor Emeritus, Calouste Gulbenkian Professor of Armenian Studies at Oxford University. So, until you provide some credentials to dispute the source, I see no need to engage in further dispute. Atabek ( talk) 01:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. - Robert Hewsen. Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians, in: Samuelian, Thomas J. (Hg.), Classical Armenian Culture. Influences and Creativity, Chico: 1982. p. 34.
MarshallBagramyan, "Sahl Smbatyan was an Armenian, simple as that", your opinion in this case is a conviction, which isn't confirmed by an expert scholar, who said "three Albanian princes... Sahl Smbatean". What I seek is not your acceptance of fact that he was Albanian (your comment highlighted above clearly shows that you just can't), but simply being fair and incorporating all references in good faith. Atabek ( talk) 08:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Dont waste your time guys, his not worth it. VartanM ( talk) 10:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Moreschi, the version which you edited was already a compromise, as stated in the talkpage. There was not only a conflict about the ethnicity, but also about if whatever or not his realm was in Caucasian Albania or Armenia. Note that what is Albania was classified by the Arabs under their rules as Armenia I. Several sources were provided placing it in Armenia. It was explained that Caucasian Albania was nothing more than a geographic region during that time. Much like Anatolia is in Turkey, there is no contradiction between being in Anatolia and Turkey. So the compromise was to leave Caucasian Albania but adding that the Sahl was Armenian. Note that most sources, particularly intended for the general public, claim it in Armenia. Because the general public has no knowledge of the history of the period and has no knowledge that by then Caucasian Albania was nothing more than a geographic region. You can email Hewsen (who Grandmaster likes to quote), Hewsen is easily accessible, and he will gladly reply to you by confirming this, including the rest of the scholars Grandmaster quotes and they will confirm this.
See the references already provided.
Babak refused the offer and went to Armenia to settle with a certain Sahl b. Sunbat in his castle. The latter betrayed him to the agents of al-Afshin. Also betrayed was the brother of Babak, Abd Allah. With the situation in the Jibal area so well in the hands of al-Afshin's the Armenian rulers had every reason to please their new powerful neighbour. Prelude to the Generals Study of Some Aspects of the Regn of the Eighth Abbasid Caliph, Al ... Osman Sayyid Ahmad Ismail Al-Bili Garnet & Ithaca Press (2001) p.77
He was handed to Afshin's troops by Sahl b. Sunbadh, an Armenian prince in 222/836-7. The Cambridge History of Iran. W B Fisher, Richard Nelson Frye, J A Boyle, Ehsan Yar-Shater, Peter Jackson, Lawrence Lockhart, Cambridge University Press (1968) p.506
...Babek took to flight and fell into the hands of Sahl b. Sonbat, the Armenian Patriarch who had him arrested while hunting. E. J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936 Par M. Th. Houtsma, E. van Donzel, BRILL, (1993) p.547
...an Armenian prince called Sahl b. Sanbat,... Islamic Culture by Islamic Cultural Board, Editors: -Oct. 1936, Marmaduke Pickthall; Jan. 1937- Oct. 1938, Muhammad Asad-Weiss. (1927) p. 23
The Mihranids were extinguished through the assassination of Varaz-Trdat II by Nerseh Philippean in 207/822-23, and the Armenian prince of Shakki to the north of Arran, Sahl i Smbatean (Arabic, Sahl b. Sonbatean), extended his power over Arran. C.E Bosworth, Encyclopaedia Iranica
"After four years, in the year when New Year's Day coincided with Easter Day, Abu Ali, the native Armenian (Haykazuni) prince of Albania was killed by his full brother Smbat, king of Armenia, son of Ashot Bagratuni"( The History of the Caucasian Albanians (translated by C. F. J. Dowsett). London: (London Oriental Series, Vol. 8). Pg 220).
A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time. Minorsky in Caucasica IV. Note that Thatcher's comment on the matter shows how easily someone who does not know the history of the region can easily be fooled. While he claims that it seems Minorsky say he is Armenian, he then is not so sure, because he does not know from where he was, neither about the genealogy. But, knowing the period, and knowing the fact that it was a geographic region, and that by then Albania vanished as a true entity, it becomes clear that the second part of Minorsky paper does not question that quote, but simply wonders about his origins.
In the ninth century (Sahl era), Armenian, Georgian and Muslims all laid claims on Caucasian Albania which was a geographic region, up until the twelfth century. But in the ninth century when Sahl claimed the throne, there was no Albania left, it was some geographic region. See here, another source provided here: By the early eighth century, most of Albania had come under the rule of the caliphate, and a process of Islamization of the population began, which continued under the regional dynasties of the Sheddadids and Maziadids. A number of potentates in the Transcaucasus — Armenian, Georgian, and Muslim — all continued to lay claim to the kingship of Albania until the twelfth century, although for all intents and purposes, Caucasus Albania had passed into history by the ninth century. (An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires by James Stuart, Olson Greenwood Press (1994) p.27
Already starting with the fifth century the modern Albania of the time had become culturally Armenian. This too was already provided, from Hewsen:
That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. Contrary to Bunjatov, there is no evidence that any of this literature was translated into Armenian from another language and his assertion that the Armenian Church caused the Albanian literature to be translated into Armenian and then had originals destroyed is a flight of facy. (Hewsen, Robert H. Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians, in: Samuelian, Thomas J. (Hg.), Classical Armenian Culture. Influences and Creativity, Chico: 1982).
Here is more, which I add to the sources already provided.
So he came to the marches of Armenia, and the lands of Sahl, one of the Patricians of that kingdom. Muhammad's People: An Anthology of Muslim Civilization, Eric Schroeder, Courier Dover Publications, 2002, p. 386 The Sahl is Smbat, as in the next paragraph the author writes: Sahl first brought him into his castle and feasted him. Then suddenly he had him seized and loaded with heavy chains. Is this treachery, Sahl? Said Babak. Sahl Smbat kept Babak captive.
But the fates betrayed him; actually, one of the Armenian patriarchs, Sahl b. Sunbat, from whom Babak asked protection, betrayed him. Interpreting Islam, Bandali Jawzi's Islamic Intellectual History, Tamara Sonn, Panteleĭmon Krestovich Zhuze, Oxford University Press US, 1996, p. 118
Sunbat b. Ashut, Sahl b. Sunbat were personalities from the border areas of Northern Persia and Armenia... Judaeo-Arabic Studies, Society for Judaeo-Arabic Studies Conference, Norman Golb, Routledge, 1997, p. 139
In conclusion, your removal of Armenian was specifically what Atabek was after, from all the authors, he has found one, from who the quotes could have been interpreted the way he wanted and used to sustain something which will justify the removal or the balancing of the reality that Sahl realm was culturally Armenian. We compromised over this by leaving Caucasian Albania, but including Armenian for Sahl. VartanM ( talk) 02:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Իսկ իբրև նա ըմբռնեցաւ, և գիտաց զօրավարն եթէ ոչ ոք այնուհետև յիշխանացն Հայոց մնաց, որ ոչ համագունդ ժողովեալ են առ նա (...) եդին զոտս նոցա ի կապանս երկաթիս և բարձին ուղտուց և խաղացուցին ի Սամառայ. որոց անուանք ճանաչի սոցա՝ տէր Սմբատ սպարապետ Հայոց, և Գրիգոր Քուրդկայ որդի Մամիկոնէից տէր, և Ատրներսէհ Աղուանից իշխան, և Գրիգոր Սիւնաց տէր, և Սահլ Սմբատայ որդի, Շաքեո տէր, որ զԲաբանն կալավ, և իշխանական Վասակ Վայոց Ձորոյ տէրն, և Փիլիպպէ իշխանն Սիւնաց, և Ներսէհ իշխան Գարիփայանից և ապա Եսայի Ապումուսէ, որ զշատ պատերազմունսն եհար։
And when the general [Bugha] was certain that no one of the Princes of Armenia was left, who was not gathered by him (...), their [Princes' of Armenia] foots were claped in iron, they were lifted up on camels and carried to Samara. The ones, who are known by their names, are: Lord Smbat - Sparapet of Armenia, Grigor son of Kourd - Mamikonian Lord, Atrnerseh - Prince of Aghuank, Grigor - Lord of Syunik, Sahl son of Smbat - Lord of Shakke, who had captured Baban [Babek], Ishkhanakn Vasak - Lord of Vayots Dzor, Philippe - Lord of Syunik, Nerseh - Prince of Garipayank, and finally Esayi Abumuse, who fought many battles.
Thovma Artsruni & Anon, History of the House of Artsruni. Yerevan, 1985, pp. 297-298.
The link to Balk in the following phrase goes to the infraction in baseball. I didn't find a correct link so I leave that to others. "...committed atrocities against the revolted Armenians of Balk, Gegharkunik and Lachin (the three cantons of Syunik)..." WithGLEE ( talk) 15:54, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
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Can someone give me the rational on placing this in History of Azerbaijan? I don't get to understand why. Anatolmethanol 21:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I checked Dowsett, I don't find the relevent section where he says he was Albanian. Can someone quote? Anatolmethanol 03:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Anatolmethanol, refer to the article by C. J. F. Dowsett. "A Neglected Passage in the "History of the Caucasian Albanians"", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 19, No. 3. (1957), p.463:
Actually the footnote on page 462 of Dowsett's article, referring to an Armenian author Daghbaschean, says:
So, this basically means that Sahl was NOT the son of Smbat Bagratuni. As for Smbat not being an uncommon name in Armenian history, this name was also known in Albania and is even used in contemporary Azerbaijan, with historian Professor Sumbatzade being just one example. Similarly, many other names in Armenian history were also used or originated in other countries, not to say that many Armenian names today have clearly Turkish, Persian and/or Arabic roots, such as Kocharian, Chilingarian, Vazirian, Arzumanian, etc. and even Daghbaschean (cited above). In conclusion, nowhere does Dowsett say that Sahl was Armenian. Minorsky's reference in Caucasica IV (p. 506) completely closes the issue by saying: "Exact origin of Sahl is not explicitly stated". Minorsky also cites a Georgian chronicle, according to which Sahl's predecessors might have come from Taron in Georgia, but Dowsett also specifically dismissed this Taron reference, and added Arcruni and John Catholicos that Sahl was an Albanian prince. Atabek 13:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I fail to understand how this supports your point, if anything you admits that the source you have provided in the article does not claim him to be Albanian, claiming that Dowsett does not say he is Armenian does not mean he claims he is Albanian. If anything he is using the source which claims him to be Armenian. Also, I wonder why you have not bolded the rest. I mean, you have used a misquote to support it while the quote itself place it as the son of Smbat. And I am amazed that Grandmaster is questioning that Smbat was Armenian. Is he serious? (if he is, he could check Minorsky p.511, who calls him Armenian King, but I didn't know that even this was debated) I also fail to see how modern Azerbaijani uses of the term has any relevency here, neither your exemples, that's original research and is not allowed. Family name and first name are not the same thing.
Further, you are misinterpreting what Minorsky is saying, what he means is that the true lineage of Sahl is not known, the end of the short paragraph is explicit: ...and is likely to refer to the home of Sahl's ancestors. Minorsky actually concludes it by relating to what was reported on the deportation of Armenian kings, which included Sahl. Neither Dowsett neither Minorsky contradict the wide range of sources placing him as Armenian, to the contrary. Do you have another source? Anatolmethanol 14:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You don't need to put the caps on, I can read. Let me repeat this. The uses of Albanian princes is meant to say the princes of Albania. The source in question say the son of Smbat, who is Armenian. I doubt you will find a source which will claim that Smbat was not Armenian. When you word that that he was either Albanian or Armenian, it mislead the reader into believing that he was either ethnically Armenian or ethnically Albanian. When we say Armenian we mean ethnically, while here Albanian is used as in 'prince of Albania.' I think it makes a differences. He was one of the princes of Albania, but sources place him as Armenian. You claim that neither does Dowsett nor Minorsky claim him to be Armenian. I tend to disagree there for several reason. First, the quote you have used to claim him to be ethnically Albanian was in fact a misquote, the actual quote does place him as Armenian. Smbat being Armenian, his son would be Armenian. Dowsett on the other hand, in the footnote explicitly say that it is not because his name was Smbat that it meant that he was his son, since the name Smbat was not uncommon for an Armenian. So if anything, both do make suggestions on him being ethnically Armenian and does not contradict the rest of the sources which support the position that he was Armenian. So, having said that, I don't see how Doswett could be used to claim him to be ethnically Albanian. Please explain. Anatolmethanol 15:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you understood my point, possible neither what Dowsett wanted to say here. I know it is not the same Smbat, I was talking about Smbat Bagraduni, I gave the exemple from Minorsky of a following rule, to show Smbat is Armenian. You have to interprete what I said in light of Dowsett point in the footnote. Let me explain, it is claimed that Sahl was the son of Smbat, which people assumed to be Smbat Bagraduni. In the footnote, Dowsett say that it is not as if Smbat was that rare a name for Armenians and for this reason it does not mean that the source is talking about the Bagraduni. Smbat is actually an Armenian name, for the Sahl to claim the trone of Albania or Georgia he had to change his name, because Smbat is Armenian but its Albanian or Georgian version when written in latin alphabet has an 'u'. The reason why the Armenian version is written Smbat is because there is another later, the 'et' in Armenian which is left out in the transliteration. In all his works Dowsett actually leave that letter out not only for Smbat. Dowsett never denies, but actually confirms the Smbat in question was Armenian, but claims that it was not necessarly the Bagraduni. Anatolmethanol 16:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You have been provided with references above:
Again Smbat in Albanian and Armenian was spelled the same way, not with "n". "N" is the spelling of his name in Arabic sources. In fact, even in contemporary Azeri, it's Sumbat not Sunbat.
We are yet to see your references to say that Smbat was ethnically Armenian, citing a page and a precise quote, please, aside from just saying "he was Armenian". Please, provide those sources, just like I did above, before we may proceed in further discussion. Thanks. Atabek 16:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I feal that this discussion is going nowhere and we're turning in circle. You should have searched the matter a little bit more before asking me sources. The article arleady contain sources about him being Armenian, while the source you provided does not support your assertions.
But here few more.
He calls him an Armenian ruler.
More.
Do those satisfy you? Or perhaps do you want more sources?
Comming to you three points, I don't think you read me carefully, those sources don't do what you claim. Dowsett does not dismiss him being Armenian, he actually suggest in his footnote him being Armenian. In fact, the only place in the entire paper where he relate to his ethnicity was on the footnote, where he say that Smbat is not such an uncommon name among Armenians to suggest that he was from the Bagraduni's. Your second point does not make sense, when Dowsett say he was an Albanian prince, he means the Prince of Albania not that he was Albanian by language or by ethnicity. Those years Albania was already Armenized. As for Minorsky, I have already repeated that Minorsky is talking about his lineage not his ethnicity. The end of the short paragraph makes it clear as he suggest a lineage.
To answer Grandmaster, Smbat is Armenian by any published sources. If you claim that it is not an Armenian name, then perhaps you are not that versed in the Subject. Dowsett present this as an established fact and which is not dismissed by anyone. The reason why it is the Armenian version of the name is because of the et missing in the latin transliteration while it is fully present for both Albanian and Georgian transliteration. In fact the Albanian version is Georgian influenced, because there is no et in Georgian, they rather use the u.
On your second point, you are not understand the context in which Dowsett said that, I thought it was clear. Read the text which is footnoted. Dowsett point was in relation to the claim that Smbat was not a Bagraduni, and in his footnote he claims that Smbat was not an uncommon name by Armenians. He is implicitly saying him to be Armenian. The Bagraduni's were Armenian, and he say that it is not as if Smbat is that an uncommon name among Armenians to assume that he is Bagraduni. Nowhere have you nor Atabek provided any explicit source nor anything contradicting with the claim that Sahl was Armenian. Sources which does not say explicitly the ethnicity can not be used to dismiss what scholarly works by the large claim. It is like using a source which does not say that the current president of Armenia is ethnically Armenian to be used to claim he may not be in parallel to another source which says he is. In any case, I don't see what Atabek and your problem is. I want to expend the article, but if we can't even settle on the ethnicity of the person even though both of you have provided no source to substenciate both of your positions I don't see how I can improve this article. Anatolmethanol 17:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Anatolmethanol, this is a summary of my new edits [1], please, show me item by item, where did I remove the words Armenia or Armenians? Please, assume good faith. Thanks. Atabek 18:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The top Western expert on Caucasian Albania was CJF Dowsett, who translated Movses Kalankatuaci's "History of the Country Aluank" into English, and was also, by the way, a Professor Emeritus of Armenian Studies at Oxford. Bosworth was NOT an expert on Caucasian Albania at all. Atabek 07:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
By the early eighth century, most of Albania had come under the rule of the caliphate, and a process of Islamization of the population began, which continued under the regional dynasties of the Sheddadids and Maziadids. A number of potentates in the Transcaucasus — Armenian, Georgian, and Muslim — all continued to lay claim to the kingship of Albania until the twelfth century, although for all intents and purposes, Caucasus Albania had passed into history by the ninth century. (An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires by James Stuart, Olson Greenwood Press (1994) p.27
This is the background history of the period, which anyone who read Dowsett's specialized papers (translations of Armenian texts and analysis) should know, and he guesses that they do know. It is quite easy to manipulate texts with terms... It has to be understood in the light of the background history. Sahl, for instance, was an Armenian who assumed the title of ruler of Albania. The footnote is --Daghbaschean takes Sahl to be the son of the contemporary generalissimo of Armenia, Smbat Bagratuni; this is completely without foundation and his surprise that "Sahl is nowhere called the son of Smbat the Generalissimo but merely the son of Smbat" is wholly unjustified. Smbat is hardly an uncommon name in Armenian history-- assumes that the reader knows already that he is Armenian.
But the fact that you have removed in your first quotation the word son suggest that you knew that this would have made a lot of differences in the interpretation. It can not be only a misquote because you did not only remove son; you actually replaced the word.
Also, your assumption on what Minorsky is saying about his origin is wrong. As Fadix has stated, the paragraph in which Minorsky uses that word leaves no doubt that he is talking about the genealogy. Dowsett also raises it when he writes: Apart from minor details (from the linguistic point of view its support for the form patgos is welcome), it implies a reasonable date for the death of Khalid, gives us a plausible genealogy for the prince Sahl i Smbatean whose origin has hitherto been obscure,... (p.468) The quote is refreshing right? What more? He calls the prince Smbatean. He calls him by his Armenian name. The reason why he translated it to Smbatean and not Smbatian is because in Armenian, Armenian endings are not written with an i but the yetch, which is translated in historic documents as e rather than i His name's ending is Armenian. But obviously, since both of you are not editing in good faith, it is reasonable to assume that there is nothing which will prevent the distortion of the whole thing just to make the word Armenian disappear or to merely present it as an opinion. -- Davo88 22:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Dowsett does not say that Sahl was Albanian Atabek, thats simply your interpretation. Yes, Sahl was an Albanian prince, but this does not mean he was Albanian himself. Albanian prince in this context means a prince of Albania. Philip the Arab was also Roman Emperor, but he was not Roman (Italian) in descent. Hajji Piruz 02:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I know it says "Albanian Prince" but this does not mean that Sahl was Albanian. This means that he was simple a prince of Albania. Philip the Arab was referred to as a Roman Emperor, yet this does not mean he was of Roman descent, he was of Arab descent. Hajji Piruz 17:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Circular and endless discussion, Vartan, I don't think you need to reply here. By now, if he was contributing in good faith, he should've understood it. Armenian scholar, not as in Armenian scholar. I think this resumes the situation... no need to add more. I will be fixing this article in the near future. - Fedayee 00:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree that article should be fixed but not by using socks-- Dacy69 16:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC) I rv'ed new editor. Current version accomodate both version.-- Dacy69 16:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
You are misinterpreting Hewsen... Vartan already explained above. Hewsen is not saying that Haykazuni does not mean Armenian, he is answering an Armenian scholar who thinks that since it means descendant of Hayk, it would mean the house of Armenian origin (from the first descendant), from where Armenians allegedly started. Hewsen, to that, answers that this is not what Haykazuni means but rather that it is so old that one can not remember. He is not questioning that a Haykazuni is an Armenian; he is just questioning a word by word interpretation of it. In fact, he can't because when the term is used is to describe lineage in regions outside of the geographic Albania. From Dowsett’s translation, the Sahl was born in Siunik, which was in Armenia, not Albania.
I don't think you have read Hewsen’s paper carefully, because he admits those regions were Armenian during those periods.
That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. Contrary to Bunjatov, there is no evidence that any of this literature was translated into Armenian from another language and his assertion that the Armenian Church caused the Albanian literature to be translated into Armenian and then had originals destroyed is a flight of facy. p. 34
To repeat myself, Hewsen is answering to the claim that since it means Hayk Descendents, it means that the place was originally Armenian. Hewsen claims that Mnac'akanyan, on the other hand, oversimplifies as well. He is certainly wrong in claiming that the lands between the Kur and the Arax were originally Armenian, and he, too, underestimates both the ethnic complexity of the region in question and how late the aborigines must have survived as distinct peoples, whether under Armenian or Albanian rule.
So, you have quoted out of context Hewsen, much like Dowsett is quoted out of context. Dowsett never denies that the Sahl was Armenian, in fact even Hewsen claims that on that spot, the Partav region, the so-called Albanians were Armenians, and Dowsett’s translation says the Sahl was from Siunik, plain in Armenia. Dowsett’s footnote also explains in his footnote, not to say he calls him from his Armenian name. Albanian does not mean ethnically Albanian, this has been explained to you by providing Dowsett’s own words supported by various other materials. Now would you please stop pushing us in a circular discussion? - Fedayee 05:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, I can not understand how you can misinterpret every single author presented here. Hewsen does nothing such, the paper in question criticises two scholars, one Armenian, the other Azerbaijani. He never claims that it does not mean Armenian, he answers to the claim that the region surrounding Siwnik was from where Armenians come from, their native region. He is answering there to the erroneous use of the word to assume that it was from where Hayk comes from. He never questions that it means Armenian. And no, he does not say that the original people there were Albanian, he say that many people lived there, one of which will be founding an Albania.
As for Dowsett, you have yet to address his footnote, not that long ago, Atabek was on the other article saying that Armenian scholar does not mean ethnically Armenian and we are in the same situation. You are pulling my legs, the footnote reinterprets the sentence and you can ask any third party editor about that and he will say the same thing, please stop pushing us in a circular discussion. - Fedayee 16:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh boy, it is really difficult to maintain my cool with your provocations. Was Dowsett an Armenian? Answer to this question, his biography presented in The Independent claims him to be an Armenian scholar. Was he Armenian? Prove that The Independent article is saying he was an English Brits. The article only says Armenian scholar. You are twisting things to your advantage forcing us in an endless circular discussion and then when someone doesn't justify his edit (like in Marshall's case) because he is not interested to be engaged in a worthless, senseless, endless discussion you report him. If on the other hand, the person does decide to discuss, it is a lost cause.
I will repeat it, in the intro of the paper; the author implies he is covering Armenian history, not Albanian, not Parthian, not Chinese, but Armenian. I will requote what Davo has quoted, those are the first lines of the paper: The land of the Aluank' or Caucasian Albania, whose geography and customs already attracted the attention of Strabo and Pliny, represents the easternmost part of the Armenian sphere of influence. He is covering the subject as part of Armenian history. He calls Smbat by his Armenian name, with the ian(ean) ending, does not call him Sunbat from the Georgian or Albanian name. And then explains to the claim that it was not Smbat Bagraduni, that the name is hardly uncommon in Armenian history.
To this adds, all the rest of the sources which merely teach the history of the region that one has to know to accurately interpret the piece, like when Hewsen says: That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. Contrary to Bunjatov, there is no evidence that any of this literature was translated into Armenian from another language and his assertion that the Armenian Church caused the Albanian literature to be translated into Armenian and then had originals destroyed is a flight of facy.
If you believe that someone is Azerbaijani, Armenian, Albanian by blood, this is your problem, but this is not a position maintained by historians, certainly not Dowsett. Sahl was from Siunik, outside the realm of Albania, the princeship lineage of Siunik and the Bagraduni are believed according to those lists to have been the same as those of Albania, Sahl should have had some blood relationship with the ancient princes of Albanian to claim the throne. Those are only blood justified claims for the throne, nothing more. It has nothing to do with ethnicity. Sahl was controlling a culturally Armenian place, he spoke Armenian with his subjects, the materials written during his ruling by his subjects from the region, were exclusively Armenian. He is claimed to be Armenian, period. If please, please, would you stop bringing this up again and over again? If you don't believe what I am saying is accurate, request a third opinion but obviously you are wrongly interpreting the sources. - Fedayee 23:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Sahl is the son of Smbat. That is why he is called Sahl ibn Smbat and Dowsett calls him Sahl Smbatian. Plus Dowsett is using Armenian and Haykazuni equivalently. This is beginning to be a waste of time for everyone involved. Most, if not all, sources call him Armenian, Dowsett makes it clear he was Armenian, etc...
No other sources have been presented that say Sahl was Albanian. I have taken the initiative to end this dispute by saying that he was an Albanian prince in the first sentence, while also making it clear that he was Armenian. Hajji Piruz 16:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it isn't my fault that Fadix's arguments made sense and yours did not. You are the one who's creating the dispute. Dowsett claimed him to be ethnically Armenian, in the intro he says that it is on the Eastern sphere of Armenian influence, and calls him by his Armenian name, and on the footnote implicitly tells him to be ethnically Armenian. I told you before to bring a third party editor, instead you pushed the argument into a circular never ending maze. The only possible explanation I can think of, is that the territory he controlled is now the region of Nagorno-Karabakh, and for political reasons you're mudding down his Armenian ethnicity. VartanM 23:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I have rephrased the sentence accordingly suites the article. -- 83.181.229.63 21:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Rephrased again he says he is a albanian prince. Not sure if we should assume he was prince of Albania, since the source doesn't say that. Most sources say he is Armenian anyway.
An editor should not add dispute tags without making a good faith effort to explain why he thinks they are needed. Other editors should not remove the tags without making a good faith effort to address the issues raised (denying that an issue exists is not sufficient). When in doubt, ask for comment or a third opinion. Thatcher131 01:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
How about we avoid entirely for a while the issue of Sahl's ethnicity. Thatcher131 02:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The antecedents of Sahl i Smbatean
In this passage, Sahl i Smbatean, who is called Eransahik at III 19, is said to be of ' the Zarmirhakan family of kings '. This indicates that Sahl was the descendant of the Zarmirh Eransahik who was the sole survivor of the Eransahik family when they were treacherously exterminated by Vardan K'aj of the Mihrakan dynasty and was spared only because he was the husband of one of the daughters of Vardan's family... Suggestions that Sahl was a Bagratid or that his family came originally from Tarbn are to be discarded, or at least revised, in the light of the present passage, which is the only explicit statement on Sahl's origin, hitherto a mystery, found in Armenian sources. One cannot exclude the possibility, however, of this eminently respectable Albanian genealogy having been falsely assumed by Sahl or invented by the historian or his source in an attempt to legitimize Sahl's claim to the throne of Albania.
Unfortunately I can not find anything out about the Zarmirhakan family of kings as to whether they were Albanian or Armenian. That would help.
I take "Albanian prince" to mean prince of Caucasian Albania, which is not the same as saying he was born in Albania. On the other hand, I do not put much faith in reading between the lines and making inferences from spelling choices made in translation. Doswett says in the now-famous footnote that there is no foundation for the belief that Sahl was a Bagratid and the son of generalissimo Smbat Bagratuni. But Dowsett does not explicity say that Sahl was Armenian, which he could have said if he wanted to. Instead, Dowsett says Sahl was from the Zarmirhakan family of kings, which is an eminently respectable Albanian genealogy but which might be false. This is of course the first translation of a passage from the Patmut'iwn Aluanic by Movses Kalankatuaci that has been missing from previous trnaslations since 1895, and it is also the only statement of Sahl's origins in an Armenian source. If someone knows what the Zarmirhakan family of kings is, then I think we should include that along with the statement that it might have been invented to legitimize his rule. Otherwise, I think we should admit ignorance on the issue of Sahl's birth. Thatcher131 03:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Minorsky in Caucasica IV writes
A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time.
So Sahl is Armenian, right? (Minorsky thinks Sahl is a mask for his Christian name.) But maybe not. Also from Minorsky,
Opposite Qaraja-dagh, on the northern bank of the Araxes and up to the course of the Kur, there lies another hilly tract which, at the time in question, was studded with small principalities. ... The southern bank of the Kur seems to have depended on the Mihranids, but the situation here was unstable. Beyond the Kur we find the considerable Muslim principality of Sharvan, a survival from Sasanian times, but now ruled by the family of the Yazidids of the Shayblni tribe. West of Sharvln was situated Qabala, with a mixed population (including even some Khazars) but ruled by a Christian prince. In the west it bordered on Shakki, also with a Christian dynasty. The origins of the princes of Qabala and Shakki are little known, but in view of constant intermarriage we have to assume their manifold links with the princes of the right bank.
So he doesn't really know either. Then later,
The exact origin of Sahl is not explicitly stated. Thomas Artsruni, iii, § 11, calls him ruler of Shak'E, and we must remember that the Hudud al-'Alam, after having spoken of Shakki, refers (§ 36, 32) to ' Sunbatman, a town at the farther end of Shakki, with a strong fortress '. The name Sunbat-man means "Sunbat's house" and is likely to refer to the home of Sahl's ancestors.
So his ancestral home is in Shaki? Interestingly, Minorsky debunks the claim that Sahl was from the "eminently respectable" Zarmirhakan family,
The title Eranshahik, under which the historian of Albania presents him in this passage, is probably given him in anticipation, for immediately after, and under the same year [822], Moses speaks of the murder of the last Mihranid Varaz-Trdad by a certain Ter-Nerseh P'ilippean. We do not know whether the latter acted on behalf of Sahl, but Sahl surely profited by the crime, as he assumed
the title of the victim. As Varaz-Trdad is called the last Mihranid, it is clear that Sahl did not belong to that house.
Ultimately, the problem is that neither Dowsett nor Minorsky ever comes out and says where Sahl was from. In fact, they go to great lengths to explain why they don't know who Sahl was. You can selectively read them both to support either view. Since neither authority makes an explicit statement, any reading between the lines to draw conclusions is original research. Thatcher131 04:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Wow, don't drink and edit Wikipedia guys, Grandmaster I apologize if I somehow offended you. But you accused me of OR, when it was a different user who made that comment. I'll get back to you on you on the Arabic sources. VartanM 20:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Dowsett says that by 835, Sahl had revolted against the Arabs and was ruler of Arran. (Apologies, this is copied from a pdf file and I have not cleaned it up)
According to the Arab historians Sahl, although he had been an ally of Babek (Baban), was prevailed upon by Afsin to deliver up the fleeing rebel who had taken refuge with him.6 For this service Sahl received, according to Mas'udi, a royal robe, a crown, and a horse, and was exempted from tribute, all of which amounts to an official investiture as ruler of Albania.8 The exemption from tribute must have been no more than official acceptance of the status quo, for already in 835, when Muhammad b. Suleymiin al-'Azdi al-Samarqandi arrived to govern Armenia, Sahl had revolted against the Arabs and made himself master of Arran ; this fact is discreetly ignored by the caliph in 837. The Armenian historian Vardan speaks only of a monetary reward : ' Sahl, son of Smbat, seizes Baban and receives from Ap'sin gifts of a thousand kiir of silver and yet another hundred thousand '.2 hlovs&' statement that Sahl received sovereignty over Armenia, Georgia, and Albania is, of course, a gross exaggeration. Sahl was not even sole ruler of Albania, and T'ovma Arcruni calls him only ' lord of Sak'B '.3 Among the prisoners captured by Bo&a al-Kabir in 854 John Catholicos and T'ovma Arcruni mention three Albanian princes : Atrnerseh, lord of XaCBn,6 Sahl son of Smbat, lord of Sak'~a, nd Esay Abu Mu&, lord of K't'is in Arqax.7 After the murder of the Mihrakan prince Varaz Trdat in 821/2,s the last vestige of political unity disappeared from Albania ; his murderer Nerseh, son of P'ilippz, although he is said to have stolen all the possessions of Varaz-Trdat, does not appear to have played any subsequent role in the destiny of Albania. The Albanian princes seem to have ruled independently, although Atrnerseh of XaCEn was probably the most powerful ;
Comments? Thatcher131 03:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This is going to far. Really, Grandmaster and Atabek have not provided a single source that says Sahl was Albanian, yet they still make the claim. Every source I have checked, including Encyclopaedia Iranica, says that Sahl was Armenian.
How far will this go? Hajji Piruz
Question: Why do you call everything OR? Do you know what constitutes OR (OR stands for original research)?
Its pretty funny Atabek that you are using Dowsett once more. It has been cleared that Dowsett has called Sahls family Armenia and that Albania in that context does not define ethnicity.
But hey, by all means, continue with the circular argument, feel free not do actually address anything presented by the other parties. Hajji Piruz 23:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The article claims that Afshin, the Persian prince of Oshrusana, was a Turk. This is wrong. Afshin (as the name suggests) was an Iranian Muslim general who served the Abbasid caliph. He is known as the great traitor who betryed Babak and the Persian nationalist movement, by fighting Babak and freeing some 7000 Arab prisoners.
Afshin's army consisted of a large number of Turkish slave soldiers, but he himself was an Iranian. His father was among the powerful Iranian Muslim advisors of the Abasids, just like the famous Barmakid family. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.83.128.189 ( talk) 18:49:32, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
[9] [10] [11] [12] I am not going to get involved on the Sahl issue here, but there is no reason to bring Afshin to the debate. -- alidoostzadeh 19:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I got a pretty concrete source calling him Armenian. If a turkish book called him Armenian and we had several to start with, this is a closed and shut case. Hetoum I 19:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
(statement redacted) I restored to previous Arabic title, as Sahl Sunbat was mostly known from Arabic sources, cited by Minorsky, CJF Dowsett, C. E. Bosworth and other authoritative scholarly sources. Please, discuss your changes and do not remove sources to important and authoritative references. Apart from Sahl being mentioned in Armenian sources, no reliable source so far says he was Armenian, they only refer to Armenian version of his name. Also refer to thread [15] by User:Thatcher131, yet again requesting reference that would show that Sahl was ethnic Armenian. Atabek 11:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, Bosworth reference is available at Google Books here, the main body of material uses ibn Sunbat while citing in footnote only that in Armenian it sounds Smbatean. It does not mean that Sahl was Armenian, it's the references to him came from Armenian sources. Again, I don't see why legitimate CJF Dowsett and Minorsky references were removed in your edit, both authors are more authoritative on the subject than those currently listed on the page. Again, no proof that Sunbat was Armenian. Regarding calling my comments as "abrasive answers", assume good faith. Atabek 05:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I see no problem in both the Armenian and Arabic names being shown in the article, however, since he was Armenian it makes sense to use his Armenian name as the title, right? Hajji Piruz 21:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored Thatcher's version. I don't see that subsequent edits had a consensus on talk. I kept Ali's edit though for the sake of avoiding another ethnicity dispute. -- Grandmaster 12:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Eupator and Vartan, not sure, what scholarly authority either of you represent vis-a-vis CJF Dowsett, Professor Emeritus, Calouste Gulbenkian Professor of Armenian Studies at Oxford University. So, until you provide some credentials to dispute the source, I see no need to engage in further dispute. Atabek ( talk) 01:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. - Robert Hewsen. Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians, in: Samuelian, Thomas J. (Hg.), Classical Armenian Culture. Influences and Creativity, Chico: 1982. p. 34.
MarshallBagramyan, "Sahl Smbatyan was an Armenian, simple as that", your opinion in this case is a conviction, which isn't confirmed by an expert scholar, who said "three Albanian princes... Sahl Smbatean". What I seek is not your acceptance of fact that he was Albanian (your comment highlighted above clearly shows that you just can't), but simply being fair and incorporating all references in good faith. Atabek ( talk) 08:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Dont waste your time guys, his not worth it. VartanM ( talk) 10:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Moreschi, the version which you edited was already a compromise, as stated in the talkpage. There was not only a conflict about the ethnicity, but also about if whatever or not his realm was in Caucasian Albania or Armenia. Note that what is Albania was classified by the Arabs under their rules as Armenia I. Several sources were provided placing it in Armenia. It was explained that Caucasian Albania was nothing more than a geographic region during that time. Much like Anatolia is in Turkey, there is no contradiction between being in Anatolia and Turkey. So the compromise was to leave Caucasian Albania but adding that the Sahl was Armenian. Note that most sources, particularly intended for the general public, claim it in Armenia. Because the general public has no knowledge of the history of the period and has no knowledge that by then Caucasian Albania was nothing more than a geographic region. You can email Hewsen (who Grandmaster likes to quote), Hewsen is easily accessible, and he will gladly reply to you by confirming this, including the rest of the scholars Grandmaster quotes and they will confirm this.
See the references already provided.
Babak refused the offer and went to Armenia to settle with a certain Sahl b. Sunbat in his castle. The latter betrayed him to the agents of al-Afshin. Also betrayed was the brother of Babak, Abd Allah. With the situation in the Jibal area so well in the hands of al-Afshin's the Armenian rulers had every reason to please their new powerful neighbour. Prelude to the Generals Study of Some Aspects of the Regn of the Eighth Abbasid Caliph, Al ... Osman Sayyid Ahmad Ismail Al-Bili Garnet & Ithaca Press (2001) p.77
He was handed to Afshin's troops by Sahl b. Sunbadh, an Armenian prince in 222/836-7. The Cambridge History of Iran. W B Fisher, Richard Nelson Frye, J A Boyle, Ehsan Yar-Shater, Peter Jackson, Lawrence Lockhart, Cambridge University Press (1968) p.506
...Babek took to flight and fell into the hands of Sahl b. Sonbat, the Armenian Patriarch who had him arrested while hunting. E. J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936 Par M. Th. Houtsma, E. van Donzel, BRILL, (1993) p.547
...an Armenian prince called Sahl b. Sanbat,... Islamic Culture by Islamic Cultural Board, Editors: -Oct. 1936, Marmaduke Pickthall; Jan. 1937- Oct. 1938, Muhammad Asad-Weiss. (1927) p. 23
The Mihranids were extinguished through the assassination of Varaz-Trdat II by Nerseh Philippean in 207/822-23, and the Armenian prince of Shakki to the north of Arran, Sahl i Smbatean (Arabic, Sahl b. Sonbatean), extended his power over Arran. C.E Bosworth, Encyclopaedia Iranica
"After four years, in the year when New Year's Day coincided with Easter Day, Abu Ali, the native Armenian (Haykazuni) prince of Albania was killed by his full brother Smbat, king of Armenia, son of Ashot Bagratuni"( The History of the Caucasian Albanians (translated by C. F. J. Dowsett). London: (London Oriental Series, Vol. 8). Pg 220).
A particular complication results from the contemporary Armenian fashion of assuming Arabic patronymics (kunya) (such as Abii-Miisii, Abul-Asad, etc.), without any connexion with the original Armenian names. These latter too often recur in otherwise unrelated families, and it becomes difficult to discriminate between several Sahls, Vasaks, and Smbats living at the same time. Minorsky in Caucasica IV. Note that Thatcher's comment on the matter shows how easily someone who does not know the history of the region can easily be fooled. While he claims that it seems Minorsky say he is Armenian, he then is not so sure, because he does not know from where he was, neither about the genealogy. But, knowing the period, and knowing the fact that it was a geographic region, and that by then Albania vanished as a true entity, it becomes clear that the second part of Minorsky paper does not question that quote, but simply wonders about his origins.
In the ninth century (Sahl era), Armenian, Georgian and Muslims all laid claims on Caucasian Albania which was a geographic region, up until the twelfth century. But in the ninth century when Sahl claimed the throne, there was no Albania left, it was some geographic region. See here, another source provided here: By the early eighth century, most of Albania had come under the rule of the caliphate, and a process of Islamization of the population began, which continued under the regional dynasties of the Sheddadids and Maziadids. A number of potentates in the Transcaucasus — Armenian, Georgian, and Muslim — all continued to lay claim to the kingship of Albania until the twelfth century, although for all intents and purposes, Caucasus Albania had passed into history by the ninth century. (An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires by James Stuart, Olson Greenwood Press (1994) p.27
Already starting with the fifth century the modern Albania of the time had become culturally Armenian. This too was already provided, from Hewsen:
That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question, and here the arguments of Manc'akanyan are the strongest. No trace of an Albanian literature in the Albanian language survived, and all of the so-called Albanian literature which has come down to us is certainly written in Armenian. Contrary to Bunjatov, there is no evidence that any of this literature was translated into Armenian from another language and his assertion that the Armenian Church caused the Albanian literature to be translated into Armenian and then had originals destroyed is a flight of facy. (Hewsen, Robert H. Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians, in: Samuelian, Thomas J. (Hg.), Classical Armenian Culture. Influences and Creativity, Chico: 1982).
Here is more, which I add to the sources already provided.
So he came to the marches of Armenia, and the lands of Sahl, one of the Patricians of that kingdom. Muhammad's People: An Anthology of Muslim Civilization, Eric Schroeder, Courier Dover Publications, 2002, p. 386 The Sahl is Smbat, as in the next paragraph the author writes: Sahl first brought him into his castle and feasted him. Then suddenly he had him seized and loaded with heavy chains. Is this treachery, Sahl? Said Babak. Sahl Smbat kept Babak captive.
But the fates betrayed him; actually, one of the Armenian patriarchs, Sahl b. Sunbat, from whom Babak asked protection, betrayed him. Interpreting Islam, Bandali Jawzi's Islamic Intellectual History, Tamara Sonn, Panteleĭmon Krestovich Zhuze, Oxford University Press US, 1996, p. 118
Sunbat b. Ashut, Sahl b. Sunbat were personalities from the border areas of Northern Persia and Armenia... Judaeo-Arabic Studies, Society for Judaeo-Arabic Studies Conference, Norman Golb, Routledge, 1997, p. 139
In conclusion, your removal of Armenian was specifically what Atabek was after, from all the authors, he has found one, from who the quotes could have been interpreted the way he wanted and used to sustain something which will justify the removal or the balancing of the reality that Sahl realm was culturally Armenian. We compromised over this by leaving Caucasian Albania, but including Armenian for Sahl. VartanM ( talk) 02:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Իսկ իբրև նա ըմբռնեցաւ, և գիտաց զօրավարն եթէ ոչ ոք այնուհետև յիշխանացն Հայոց մնաց, որ ոչ համագունդ ժողովեալ են առ նա (...) եդին զոտս նոցա ի կապանս երկաթիս և բարձին ուղտուց և խաղացուցին ի Սամառայ. որոց անուանք ճանաչի սոցա՝ տէր Սմբատ սպարապետ Հայոց, և Գրիգոր Քուրդկայ որդի Մամիկոնէից տէր, և Ատրներսէհ Աղուանից իշխան, և Գրիգոր Սիւնաց տէր, և Սահլ Սմբատայ որդի, Շաքեո տէր, որ զԲաբանն կալավ, և իշխանական Վասակ Վայոց Ձորոյ տէրն, և Փիլիպպէ իշխանն Սիւնաց, և Ներսէհ իշխան Գարիփայանից և ապա Եսայի Ապումուսէ, որ զշատ պատերազմունսն եհար։
And when the general [Bugha] was certain that no one of the Princes of Armenia was left, who was not gathered by him (...), their [Princes' of Armenia] foots were claped in iron, they were lifted up on camels and carried to Samara. The ones, who are known by their names, are: Lord Smbat - Sparapet of Armenia, Grigor son of Kourd - Mamikonian Lord, Atrnerseh - Prince of Aghuank, Grigor - Lord of Syunik, Sahl son of Smbat - Lord of Shakke, who had captured Baban [Babek], Ishkhanakn Vasak - Lord of Vayots Dzor, Philippe - Lord of Syunik, Nerseh - Prince of Garipayank, and finally Esayi Abumuse, who fought many battles.
Thovma Artsruni & Anon, History of the House of Artsruni. Yerevan, 1985, pp. 297-298.
The link to Balk in the following phrase goes to the infraction in baseball. I didn't find a correct link so I leave that to others. "...committed atrocities against the revolted Armenians of Balk, Gegharkunik and Lachin (the three cantons of Syunik)..." WithGLEE ( talk) 15:54, 13 September 2022 (UTC)