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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 February 2019 and 31 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TheOnlyAussy.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This sounds like original research or some fringe idea. The only thing connecting it to sagging is the last sentence. Either way do we need a whole section summarizing the tignon law and its effect?Just reference the original article on tignon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.106.70 ( talk) 23:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Why do we need 3 images? A couple months ago there was just 1 image, one on the right. -- Mjrmtg ( talk) 21:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the two sections recently added on 'types of sagging' and 'sagging underwear'. Both were completely uncited and a google search for some of the terms indicates that the material is most likely a violation of Wikipedia's original research policies. The 'sagging underwear' section was just a laundry listing of the common types of male underwear, which really adds nothing to the article. If the sections are added back, there needs to be reliable sources. WTF? ( talk) 15:48, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Wow. Do we really need 7 photos to demonstrate what it looks like when guys "(wear) trousers...below the waist...revealing much of the underwear"? It seems this page is quickly becoming a place for guys to post photos of themselves sagging. That's not what Wikipedia is for. Unless someone ould explain, based on policy, why we need so many, I propose we select one. My !vote is for File:Boy sagging.jpg for the sole reason that it is most accurate: all of the others have the guys holding up their shirts. Comments? - SummerPhD ( talk) 12:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree it is absolutely tacky to have this "gallery." One more concern: if you're going to have multiple pictures of sagged pants why are all of the people in them white, especially when it's mostly African American young men who are doing this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.131.49 ( talk) 13:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Don't we have any pictures of rappers or something? I'm sure that there's a 90% chance they'll be wearing saggy pants. Really, it's nor politically incorrect to say that the majority a lot of saggy pants wearers (in the US, at least) are African-American dudes. It's kinda true. Seriously, look through
Google Images, and tell me I'm wrong.
24.189.90.68 (
talk)
22:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
But the most likely explanation is that it comes from an eccentric American youth translation of old African culture blended with exaggerated street fashion of the time.
There is a thourogh explanation in this article. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=280977 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.251.231.35 ( talk) 22:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Is it true that it actually started as a means to identify which convicts had been "taken". I was told it was like being branded, so other convicts would know that they were already someones b*tch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.147.119 ( talk) 18:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
One of the "reliable" sources for the gay origin was Professor Mark Anthony Neal in 2007 - or you could just ask any savy ex-con in the US. As for Professor Neal, he wrote an article on it, which was posted on Duke.edu here: [1] But given pop culture and political correctness has higher priority than actual fact in wiki sometimes, due to the number of people who will simply remove something they dont agree with even if it has reputable sources, I doubt anyone who re-adds the gay reference will find it stays there very long no matter how many sources are quoted. Sorry to be a cynic but i am very sceptical about the accuracy of wiki on a range of topics for this very reason. We all know that is the one limitation of wiki, and we all live with it. 203.123.90.144 ( talk) 00:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I am sure this "style" started much earlier than the 1990s. I saw this in the late 1970s or very early 1980s in central New Jersey. This likely predates popular rap (the land mark song rappers delight did not come out until 1979 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUqvPJ3cbUQ but rap music was in its infancy in parts of New York City in the early 1970's. http://www.npr.org/2000/12/29/1116242/rappers-delight. I do not dispute the origin nor can I support it. However, the style was displayed in New Jersey cities such as Plainfield where I grew up and likely in Newark and New York City itself in the late 1970's 24.99.139.107 ( talk) 20:01, 17 September 2013 (UTC) Steven A Sawyer MD
I am surprised there is no mention of west coast gang culture. While the exact origins of the style may be disputed there should be very little dispute that it was Southern California street gangs (Crips & Bloods) that first popularized the style. Before it became a "HipHop" or "skater" thing it was associated with gang-banging and only gangsters or wanna-be's wore their pants like that. And it was at least the mid to late 1980's when it started. But we didn't sag to our knees back then but maybe at most mid-buttox. The "deep" sag didn't become a thing until the 1990's in conjunction with the baggy/over-sized clothing trend. 97.120.113.125 ( talk) 06:00, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Hannerz, Ulf (2004). Soulside: Inquires into Ghetto Cultures and Community. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. pp. 177-183. ISBN 0226315762. http://books.google.com/books?id=7nmKKvYzj48C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Soulside:+Inquiries+into+Ghetto+Cultures+and+Community&hl=en&ei=IhBGTJDNGIPmsQPByMCuAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false. Marburgh claims, after a series of disputed edits sourced to an internet forum, that the above referenced book (with a misspelled title, btw) is a source for claim of sagging as a way for prisoners to broadcast homosexual availability. I pointed out the book in question is an ethnography of late 1960s Washington, DC (first published 1969). The editor makes the claim, "Book was updated to include new research." Yes, there was a new edition in 2004. However, by this point, Hannerz was at Stockholm University or University of Oslo. While Soulside likely includes an introductory remark by the publisher, "updating" a work from his graduate studies at the University of Chicago from 35 years ago is beyond unlikely. - SummerPhD ( talk) 00:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I would like to suggest the essay in Baker, Lee D. (2009), "Saggin' and Braggin'", in Waterston, Alisse; Vesperi, Maria D. (eds.), Anthropology off the shelf: anthropologists on writing, Wiley-Blackwell, p. 47, ISBN 9781405189200 which relates to the modern trend of sagging, explains the belief that this may have been adopted from prison culture and can be verified by anybody by reading the relevant page on Google Books.
To confirm the credibility of the author of this chapter, Lee Baker, it should be noted that he is an Associate Professor of Cultural Anthropology and the Dean of Academic Affairs at Duke University, see http://www.duke.edu/~ldbaker/. Fæ ( talk) 07:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=11280612 -- Mjrmtg ( talk) 20:32, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article explain how the pants are kept up? Are their hidden pins...or suspenders? Whenever my pants start to sag, if I don't pull 'em up, they fall to the floor. Is there a certain way to walk? I really did come to this article looking for an explanation. Is there one? Buster Seven Talk 04:42, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I like to sag but where i'm from it's called busting low what is it's original name? How do you put a picture — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrech32 ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
I think there are a few sentences in this article which might be confuding to British readers, due to the fact that in Britain "pants" means "underpants", not "trousers". I don't know if there's a way of making it clear for both dialects of English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.96.22 ( talk) 14:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
The state by state breakdown of reactions to sagging is bizarrely detailed, one could be mislead into thinking no country in the world apart from the USA ever has people with low-hanging pants as a fashion or that no non-American had ever published or expressed an opinion on the matter. Fæ ( talk) 22:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
If you feel this should be added, then I highly encourage you to edit the article yourself and add it. That's the purpose of the Wiki. But simply slapping "globalize" tags around and expecting other people to edit the article to your specifications is not only counter-productive, but just plain lazy. And you people wonder why Wikipedia is losing editors in droves? It's editors such as yourself that tag articles and expect other people to fix them that frustrate everyone else. WTF? ( talk) 16:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
This article needs a newer section that mentions that "sagging" has become popular among white (and Asian) youths in not just the USA but also the UK, Japan, etc. The article focuses too heavily on sagging as an "African American" cultural phenomenon. Whether it started out that way, there are plenty of Justin Bieber wannabees around that are not African American and practice "sagging". 96.25.189.9 ( talk) 19:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
It is in the interest of stopping an edit war that I chime in here: the article blatantly focuses too closely on the United States, though thankfully the infobox picture is in a London location. Surely other sources about reactions/responses exist outside the U.S.? -- Lexein ( talk) 20:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to add to the introduction in the 'Reaction' section specifying that these are all examples from North America, to more heavily affirm the article doesn't represent a worldwide view. -- 78.150.157.252 ( talk) 13:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
It looks like the reaction section is getting a bit large and primarily becoming a sounding board for listing every incident of sagging that makes headlines. It might be better to completely rewrite this section and focus more on the legal aspects and less of a timeline of events. This might also help with the US bias in the article as well. WTF? ( talk) 22:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
The section consists of incidents that are not worthy of encyclopedia treatment and are mostly no longer even newsworthy. It should be summarized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:7600:4C97:B85A:1F80:AEB7:47E2 ( talk) 00:16, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
It started in Mexico by actor Mario Moreno "Cantinflas" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.243.142 ( talk) 18:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
" is not generally described as sagging.[1]The reference cited leads to a photograph with a text about the origin possible coming from prisons -- there is NOTHING there about the application or non-application of the term to women. 76.126.195.34 ( talk) 16:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
This is balanced towards showing sagging in a negative light. It doesn't become a blatant joke though until the Music video section when individuals of little or no actual notability are chosen and specifically those speaking out against the practice of sagging. -Serialjoepsycho- ( talk) 02:00, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
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A rough count of examples of governmental or organisational reaction against this 'style' gets me 18. That's people wanting to add _their_ favourite example, as recent as Sept 2020. Since 'stupid' never goes out of fashion, and the list will only increase, maybe active pruning is warranted? Shenme ( talk) 03:56, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
This article does not cover a worldwide subject as it just focuses on sagging in the United States. Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias Cwater1 ( talk) 16:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Good thing, there is an article for each case... Let me elaborate. There are several concepts involved. Some pictures in this article DO NOT BELONG HERE.
- Baggy pants: The pants are NOT SAGGING. Pockets are at standard heights. They are worn at the waist.
- Phat pants: Correctly defined in its corresponding article.
- Low-rise pants: Correctly defined in its corresponding article. These ARE NOT REGULAR trousers worn under the waist. There is little fabric from the hips up. So, there is no way to wear them "correctly".
- Sagging pants: There are two sub-classes.
The only question is if regular sagging trousers should be considered "real" sagging pants or if they should have their own article.
George Rodney Maruri Game (
talk)
01:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Can we not have an image of 'a boy sagging with exposed underwear'? How hard can it be to find images of men sagging. Prodigial Son ( talk) 23:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sagging (fashion) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 February 2019 and 31 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TheOnlyAussy.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This sounds like original research or some fringe idea. The only thing connecting it to sagging is the last sentence. Either way do we need a whole section summarizing the tignon law and its effect?Just reference the original article on tignon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.106.70 ( talk) 23:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Why do we need 3 images? A couple months ago there was just 1 image, one on the right. -- Mjrmtg ( talk) 21:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the two sections recently added on 'types of sagging' and 'sagging underwear'. Both were completely uncited and a google search for some of the terms indicates that the material is most likely a violation of Wikipedia's original research policies. The 'sagging underwear' section was just a laundry listing of the common types of male underwear, which really adds nothing to the article. If the sections are added back, there needs to be reliable sources. WTF? ( talk) 15:48, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Wow. Do we really need 7 photos to demonstrate what it looks like when guys "(wear) trousers...below the waist...revealing much of the underwear"? It seems this page is quickly becoming a place for guys to post photos of themselves sagging. That's not what Wikipedia is for. Unless someone ould explain, based on policy, why we need so many, I propose we select one. My !vote is for File:Boy sagging.jpg for the sole reason that it is most accurate: all of the others have the guys holding up their shirts. Comments? - SummerPhD ( talk) 12:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree it is absolutely tacky to have this "gallery." One more concern: if you're going to have multiple pictures of sagged pants why are all of the people in them white, especially when it's mostly African American young men who are doing this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.131.49 ( talk) 13:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Don't we have any pictures of rappers or something? I'm sure that there's a 90% chance they'll be wearing saggy pants. Really, it's nor politically incorrect to say that the majority a lot of saggy pants wearers (in the US, at least) are African-American dudes. It's kinda true. Seriously, look through
Google Images, and tell me I'm wrong.
24.189.90.68 (
talk)
22:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
But the most likely explanation is that it comes from an eccentric American youth translation of old African culture blended with exaggerated street fashion of the time.
There is a thourogh explanation in this article. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=280977 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.251.231.35 ( talk) 22:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Is it true that it actually started as a means to identify which convicts had been "taken". I was told it was like being branded, so other convicts would know that they were already someones b*tch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.147.119 ( talk) 18:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
One of the "reliable" sources for the gay origin was Professor Mark Anthony Neal in 2007 - or you could just ask any savy ex-con in the US. As for Professor Neal, he wrote an article on it, which was posted on Duke.edu here: [1] But given pop culture and political correctness has higher priority than actual fact in wiki sometimes, due to the number of people who will simply remove something they dont agree with even if it has reputable sources, I doubt anyone who re-adds the gay reference will find it stays there very long no matter how many sources are quoted. Sorry to be a cynic but i am very sceptical about the accuracy of wiki on a range of topics for this very reason. We all know that is the one limitation of wiki, and we all live with it. 203.123.90.144 ( talk) 00:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
I am sure this "style" started much earlier than the 1990s. I saw this in the late 1970s or very early 1980s in central New Jersey. This likely predates popular rap (the land mark song rappers delight did not come out until 1979 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUqvPJ3cbUQ but rap music was in its infancy in parts of New York City in the early 1970's. http://www.npr.org/2000/12/29/1116242/rappers-delight. I do not dispute the origin nor can I support it. However, the style was displayed in New Jersey cities such as Plainfield where I grew up and likely in Newark and New York City itself in the late 1970's 24.99.139.107 ( talk) 20:01, 17 September 2013 (UTC) Steven A Sawyer MD
I am surprised there is no mention of west coast gang culture. While the exact origins of the style may be disputed there should be very little dispute that it was Southern California street gangs (Crips & Bloods) that first popularized the style. Before it became a "HipHop" or "skater" thing it was associated with gang-banging and only gangsters or wanna-be's wore their pants like that. And it was at least the mid to late 1980's when it started. But we didn't sag to our knees back then but maybe at most mid-buttox. The "deep" sag didn't become a thing until the 1990's in conjunction with the baggy/over-sized clothing trend. 97.120.113.125 ( talk) 06:00, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Hannerz, Ulf (2004). Soulside: Inquires into Ghetto Cultures and Community. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. pp. 177-183. ISBN 0226315762. http://books.google.com/books?id=7nmKKvYzj48C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Soulside:+Inquiries+into+Ghetto+Cultures+and+Community&hl=en&ei=IhBGTJDNGIPmsQPByMCuAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false. Marburgh claims, after a series of disputed edits sourced to an internet forum, that the above referenced book (with a misspelled title, btw) is a source for claim of sagging as a way for prisoners to broadcast homosexual availability. I pointed out the book in question is an ethnography of late 1960s Washington, DC (first published 1969). The editor makes the claim, "Book was updated to include new research." Yes, there was a new edition in 2004. However, by this point, Hannerz was at Stockholm University or University of Oslo. While Soulside likely includes an introductory remark by the publisher, "updating" a work from his graduate studies at the University of Chicago from 35 years ago is beyond unlikely. - SummerPhD ( talk) 00:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I would like to suggest the essay in Baker, Lee D. (2009), "Saggin' and Braggin'", in Waterston, Alisse; Vesperi, Maria D. (eds.), Anthropology off the shelf: anthropologists on writing, Wiley-Blackwell, p. 47, ISBN 9781405189200 which relates to the modern trend of sagging, explains the belief that this may have been adopted from prison culture and can be verified by anybody by reading the relevant page on Google Books.
To confirm the credibility of the author of this chapter, Lee Baker, it should be noted that he is an Associate Professor of Cultural Anthropology and the Dean of Academic Affairs at Duke University, see http://www.duke.edu/~ldbaker/. Fæ ( talk) 07:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=11280612 -- Mjrmtg ( talk) 20:32, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Shouldn't the article explain how the pants are kept up? Are their hidden pins...or suspenders? Whenever my pants start to sag, if I don't pull 'em up, they fall to the floor. Is there a certain way to walk? I really did come to this article looking for an explanation. Is there one? Buster Seven Talk 04:42, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I like to sag but where i'm from it's called busting low what is it's original name? How do you put a picture — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrech32 ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
I think there are a few sentences in this article which might be confuding to British readers, due to the fact that in Britain "pants" means "underpants", not "trousers". I don't know if there's a way of making it clear for both dialects of English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.96.22 ( talk) 14:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
The state by state breakdown of reactions to sagging is bizarrely detailed, one could be mislead into thinking no country in the world apart from the USA ever has people with low-hanging pants as a fashion or that no non-American had ever published or expressed an opinion on the matter. Fæ ( talk) 22:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
If you feel this should be added, then I highly encourage you to edit the article yourself and add it. That's the purpose of the Wiki. But simply slapping "globalize" tags around and expecting other people to edit the article to your specifications is not only counter-productive, but just plain lazy. And you people wonder why Wikipedia is losing editors in droves? It's editors such as yourself that tag articles and expect other people to fix them that frustrate everyone else. WTF? ( talk) 16:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
This article needs a newer section that mentions that "sagging" has become popular among white (and Asian) youths in not just the USA but also the UK, Japan, etc. The article focuses too heavily on sagging as an "African American" cultural phenomenon. Whether it started out that way, there are plenty of Justin Bieber wannabees around that are not African American and practice "sagging". 96.25.189.9 ( talk) 19:45, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
It is in the interest of stopping an edit war that I chime in here: the article blatantly focuses too closely on the United States, though thankfully the infobox picture is in a London location. Surely other sources about reactions/responses exist outside the U.S.? -- Lexein ( talk) 20:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to add to the introduction in the 'Reaction' section specifying that these are all examples from North America, to more heavily affirm the article doesn't represent a worldwide view. -- 78.150.157.252 ( talk) 13:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
It looks like the reaction section is getting a bit large and primarily becoming a sounding board for listing every incident of sagging that makes headlines. It might be better to completely rewrite this section and focus more on the legal aspects and less of a timeline of events. This might also help with the US bias in the article as well. WTF? ( talk) 22:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
The section consists of incidents that are not worthy of encyclopedia treatment and are mostly no longer even newsworthy. It should be summarized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:7600:4C97:B85A:1F80:AEB7:47E2 ( talk) 00:16, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
It started in Mexico by actor Mario Moreno "Cantinflas" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.243.142 ( talk) 18:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
" is not generally described as sagging.[1]The reference cited leads to a photograph with a text about the origin possible coming from prisons -- there is NOTHING there about the application or non-application of the term to women. 76.126.195.34 ( talk) 16:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
This is balanced towards showing sagging in a negative light. It doesn't become a blatant joke though until the Music video section when individuals of little or no actual notability are chosen and specifically those speaking out against the practice of sagging. -Serialjoepsycho- ( talk) 02:00, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Sagging (fashion). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.anderson.k12.ca.us/wvhs/documents/admin/dresscode.pdf{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.wyff4.com/r/29316305/detail.htmlWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:37, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
A rough count of examples of governmental or organisational reaction against this 'style' gets me 18. That's people wanting to add _their_ favourite example, as recent as Sept 2020. Since 'stupid' never goes out of fashion, and the list will only increase, maybe active pruning is warranted? Shenme ( talk) 03:56, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
This article does not cover a worldwide subject as it just focuses on sagging in the United States. Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias Cwater1 ( talk) 16:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Good thing, there is an article for each case... Let me elaborate. There are several concepts involved. Some pictures in this article DO NOT BELONG HERE.
- Baggy pants: The pants are NOT SAGGING. Pockets are at standard heights. They are worn at the waist.
- Phat pants: Correctly defined in its corresponding article.
- Low-rise pants: Correctly defined in its corresponding article. These ARE NOT REGULAR trousers worn under the waist. There is little fabric from the hips up. So, there is no way to wear them "correctly".
- Sagging pants: There are two sub-classes.
The only question is if regular sagging trousers should be considered "real" sagging pants or if they should have their own article.
George Rodney Maruri Game (
talk)
01:37, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Can we not have an image of 'a boy sagging with exposed underwear'? How hard can it be to find images of men sagging. Prodigial Son ( talk) 23:22, 17 August 2023 (UTC)