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Hi. It's really not so clear as to what their position was regarding oral law. It is still up for debate, but then again, even the Karaites did not reject oral law--they rejected a specific oral law. As for life after death, their beliefs are entirely a matter of conjecture. Whatever position we take, there will be someone who rejects it. Danny 20:37 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
That's not correct. I am a Karaite. We reject the Oral Law. One may choose to follow it if he/she wishes, as long as it does not contradict the Tanakh and as long as they do not make that tradition on par with Torah. -- Yoshiah ap 14:40, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The problem is that both sources--Christian reference books and the Talmud--are writing from the perspective of people who disagreed with the Saduccees and are trying to place them within their own world view. I have a couple of sources at work that I could check tomorrow, but I was actually reading about it a couple of months ago, and it really is pretty murky. Danny 01:43 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
They were republicans, and thats no compliment.-- Stevert
Yeah, let's go Libertarian and get rid of both evils. -- Yoshiah ap 14:40, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
And what evidence is there that any sect of the Saducees accepted the entirety of the Hebrew Bible? -Drew —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.82.136 ( talk) 15:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Feel free to compare with this wiki article
Yoshia removed this historically documented factual text under the impression that it is POV.
Since Karaites are said to descend from Sadducees I can see how this might be difficult to swallow, but I notice that Karaites do not actually claim this link themselves. The fact is that the Zadokites were forced from the temple from 175BCE onwards and those who called themselves sadducees in Jerusalem from that time until the temple was destroyed were in fact just politically powerful pretenders. Caiaphas included. Zestauferov 07:37, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I do not know where the original evidence comes from, but I do know that several experts in the field (e.g. Falk, Maccoby, Chilton) including the Jewish encyclopaedia write about the matter. Pharisees could not have been pretenders because there was no requirement for them to be Kohanim, while real Zadokites had to be. Why should it matter so much to you anyway? I thought that Karaites were descended from a variety of jews who rejected the oral tradition. Zestauferov 23:42, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For turth! :-) It is so nice to find people on wiki without an angle, I am sorry for connecting your interest in the article to your religion. Hope you can forgive me for that. Now I was speaking only about the fact that Zadokites had to be Kohanim until 175BCE, then after it became possible to buy the position the original Zadokites left in protest, while the new high-priests who according to the authors I have mentioned believed there was no requirement to be a Kohanim. Isn't this good enough to mention in the article?01:53, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
July 13, 2007: I have fixed the one reference to BC and the one reference to AD...This are not very nice things to write in an article concerning Judaism. We accept the terms BCE, and CE, respectively instead, since the terms BC, and AD are specifically references to the Christian Church and the Gregorian Calendar....
Hi Z. Below is my proposal for a new introduction. I've tried to merge both the important parts of your edit, and the existing version. Please tell me what you think.
The sect of the Sadducees - which may have originated as a Political Party - was founded in the second century BCE and ceased to exist sometime after the first century CE. It's rival, the Pharisees, is said to have originated from the same time period, but has survived as Orthodox Judaism.
The name "Sadducees" in Hebrew is "tsedduqim", a name they adopted to indicate that they were descendants of the High Priest Zadok, who anointed Solomon king during the First Temple era. While little or none of their own writings have been preserved til today, they seem to have indeed been a priestly group, associated with the leadership of the Temple in Jerusalem. Some say that they were not truly descendants of the High Priest Tzadok, but rather the followers of another Tzadok who rebelled against his Rabbinical Teacher.
Most of what we know about the Sadducees comes from Josephus, who wrote that they were a quarrelsome group whose followers were wealthy and powerful, and that he considered them boorish in social interactions. We know something of them from discussions in the Talmud, the core work of rabbinic Judaism, which is based on the teachings of Pharisaic Judaism. However, historians find the Talmud's historical statements on many issues to be suspect.
-- Josiah 02:37, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes it looks good, but since the three authors (experts in their field) seem to have some sources which indicate the Kohanim Zadokites went to the Deadsea sometime after 175BCE and that the High-priests after that date until the end were not all Kohanim as they were supposed to be don't you think that this deserves som mention too? Zestauferov 16:20, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
An important change must be made: "It's rival, the Pharisees, is said to have originated from the same time period, but has survived as rabbinic Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is characterized by adherence to the rabbinic understanding of the oral law, as understood by Jewish codes of law and the responsa literature. This would include modern day denominations of Judaism such as Hasidic Judaism, Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism. RK
RK, does that also include Progressive, Reform, Liberal, Humanist, and Reconstructionist Judaism in your opinion? Zestauferov 16:20, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 07:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
User:IZAK has posted the following proposal on the Requested moves page:
Sadducee → Sadducees : This article's title is presently in the singular form. It should be changed to the plural to match Pharisees -- its "sister" article on its related topic that is written in the plural form. (Presently, Sadducees is only a redirect page to the main Sadducee article -- but it should be the other way around.)
Please add * Support or * Oppose followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~"
Doesn't the name "Zadokite" suggest that the party originates back to a time when the high priests weere Zadokites - that is, prior to the Hasmonean usurpation of the priesthood? john k 06:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Is the Jewish word "צְדוּקִים" correct? I ran it through Google Translate and it came up with "Inspection". Can anybody confirm? -- Nosehair2200 ( talk) 00:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
I haven't time to work on this now but Meyer Waxman in History of Jewish Literature vol. 1 makes a strong case that Josephus is highly unreliable. Josepus was attempting to parallel the Saducees to the greek epicureans (for propoganda purposes). It's very possible that Saducees did believe in some form of afterlife. Wolf2191 17:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
"Many scholars are skeptical of the historicity of this tradition." weaselish which scholars. Was a census done? It can easily be argued that Tzadok made a weak Saduccean sect into a powerful one. (Waxman- though he recants for some reason.) In any event will delete. Wolf2191 17:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
If you want to establish that the Sadducees believed in some sort of afterlife, you will need to present some sort of evidence in favor of it.
I have removed the "probably" from the article. There is no probably about it. It is a popular position, but the Essenes were excluded from the temple and eschewed bloodline, making any Zadokite connection with the Essenes highly improbable. The fact that there were at least 800 scribal hands responsible for the copies of scrolls found at Qumran suggests that the scrolls were the product of somewhere that could support so many scribes, ie Jerusalem. It is safer not to assume an Essene connection with the DSS community. -- spin control 12:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Wow! Someone knew exactly what he or she wanted to do on this page and exactly how to work Wikipedia to sort of game the system, but the person still does not want to identify him or herself. Let's see: person first made major edits from IP address 138.16.115.05. But, the bot saw that an unregistered user was making major changes on a page and simply reverted everything back! So, the user registered first as HBSamuels and redid all the major edits. Then the same user registered again as Katherineblessing and corrected a bunch of formatting errors that were left on the page after the major rewrite. And then, to cap it off, the user still logged in just from a different IP address (138.16.115.05) and did 2 more minor corrections (the second of which is still incorrect...). Now, this last correction from this last unidentified/unregistered user also precludes any editor of reverting the edits. So, someone that does not want to identify him or herself just did a major rewrite on this page, and for anyone interested in a due process of change here, the step by step option doesn't even exist any more. All that is left to the average editor is to go an look at each change that was made, one by one, and decide which version is better. The problem is that close to 50 major changes (I am estimating, guessing only here) were done, and going over them one by one is going to be a very long process, that could take a couple of hours at the least. Now, the changes that were made are serious, they are not vandalism. Looks like some scholar on the field studied the page carefully, and had the final product already written even before he or she came in and did the job in the manner described above. So, for me, the option left now is to study carefully all the major changes that were made, and decide if there is anything from the tens of lines of the old article that were obliterated that could still apply to the subject. I intend to do that sometime in the future, time allowing. I just wanted to record here what happened in case there are any admins around looking at it, and who would also have some insights or opinions on due change process in Wikipedia and on the 'system' that was used here today to accomplish a major rewrite of this page in one fell swoop, precluding even the possibility of asking the author to redo his changes step by step. warshy talk 20:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I think P.D. is correct here. My question, to anyone interested would be:
The problem is that the "Oral Law" is not 'oral' any more, but has also been written down. Not only written down, but for some, who argue that the "Oral Law" had already also been given to Moses on Sinai, but written in stone, as it were. So where do we go from here?
As per reactions to my last comment here, right above, not too many people are checking this spot anyhow. I still am, just in case... :P warshy talk 21:08, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
The name is a greek transliteration so shouldn't the greek be in the header as well as the hebrew?. Σαδδουκαῖος -- Teacherbrock ( talk) 03:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Re: As Opposed to the Jesus Movement. This section states that Matthew depicts the Sadducees as a "Brood of Vipers" and cites Matt.3:7. It may be a small point but Matthew is describing a comment of John the Baptist, who does not appear to distinguish between the Sadducees or the Pharisees, calling them both a "Brood of Vipers". - In which case I'm not sure it's completely accurate or necessary to single the Sadducees out as the target of John's venom. Mannanan51 ( talk) 05:38, 23 May 2011 (UTC)mannanan51
Also I should add that Matthew 23:33 seems to focus on the Pharisees, not Sadducees. Overall I am under the impression that, although the Essenes and other groups may have called the Sadducees wicked and blamed them for the Judaic wars etc., Jesus was actually more opposed to the Pharisees, and his religious arguments with Sadducees were more benign. This should probably be mentioned to balance out what is said only about Sadducees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.209.146 ( talk) 22:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Why would you otherwise revert a minor edit correcting BC/AD - and occasionally, inconsistently CE(!) - to BCE/CE? -- 120.148.210.64 ( talk) 19:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
This is a quote from the article: The Rabbis, who are traditionally seen as the descendants of the Pharisees, describe the similarities and differences between the two sects in Mishnah Yadaim. The Mishnah explains that the Sadducees state, “So too, regarding the Holy Scriptures, their impurity is according to (our) love for them. But the books of Homer, which are not beloved, do not defile the hands.”[21]
Please! This is so bad it's actually funny. The Mishna in Yadayim says the exact opposite: Rabbi Yohanan Ben Zakkai, the Pharisee, said this phrase to the Sadducees. I don't have the time or inclination to change this embarrassing mistake. Maybe some noble Wikipedian will do it. 68.198.65.141 ( talk) 19:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It says they didn't believe in an afterlife, but then shortly afterward it says they believed in Sheol. This seems like a clear contradiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.100.44 ( talk) 19:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Sheol in the Torah is associated with death, as the first response above already explains, not with an 'afterlife.' Afterlife implies there is some kind of 'life' after death. Sheol is simple death, not some kind of afterlife. The Pharisees believed in some kind of afterlife, such as the resurrection of the dead, following later Hebrew prophecy, but not the Torah. Sadducees were probably focused much more specifically on the Torah itself. As for the belief in the resurrection of the dead, which the Pharisees inherited from the prophets, it was later reinterpreted in Christian theology as immortality of the soul. warshy (¥¥) 22:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi Ermenrich, why do you think that the Sadducees were not Heretics according to Judaism? See three examples: "In the Talmud the term apikoros refers to the *Sadducees (Kid. 66a); to those who denigrate rabbinic authority even in such seemingly insignificant ways as calling a sage by his first name; and to those who shame neighbors before the sages (Sanh. 99b)." from Jewish Virtual Library; "The Greek term άίρεσις originally denoted "division," "sect," "religious" or "philosophical party," and is applied by Josephus ("B. J." ii. 8, § 1, and elsewhere) to the three Jewish sects—Sadducees, Pharisees, and Essenes" from The Jewish Encyclopedia; "But the following have no portion therein [the world to come]: He who maintains that resurrection is not a biblical doctrine, the Torah was not divinely revealed, and an epikoros…Clearly, this Mishnah is not a roster of all Jewish belief, but rather focuses on the issues that fractured the Jewish community during that period. The Sages stressed these particular tenets of faith in order to distinguish the faithful rabbinic community from Sadducees and other sectarian groups." from Jewish Ideas.org I am citing WP:RS so what's your excuse for deleting my categories? IZAK ( talk) 23:10, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
As a student of European history in general and of Jewish history in Europe as part of European history I view the current attempt to expand the use of the category "Heresy in Judaism" in Wikipedia as an attempt NOT to improve the historical and encyclopedic level of the encyclopedia, but rather as an attempt to enforce religious dogma through the encyclopedia. It should be denounced and banned from Wikipedia. As a religiously and ideologically disengaged (i.e. neutral) student of history I find the entire category as it currently is rather unuseful. But the current attempt to expand and enforce its use is a clear attempt to enforce religious dogma through the encyclopedia. I completely agree with all arguments against it put forth above by Ehrmenrich. Thank you. warshy (¥¥) 17:20, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone,
I found written in the Etymology section the following
"Flavius Josephus mentions in Antiquities of the Jews that "one Judas, a Gaulonite, of a city whose name was Gamala, who taking with him Sadduc, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt".[5] Paul L. Maier suggests that the sect drew their name from the Sadduc mentioned by Josephus.[6]"
I find this to be highly unlikely as Josephus clearly explained that there were three sects among the Jews, the Sadducees being one of them; it was a fourth philosophy that became the fourth sect by the hand of this Judas. Therefore, the Sadduc that Judas took with him could not possibly have been the origin of the Sadducees. Besides, even Josephus noted about this fourth philosophy "These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." It is well known and clearly explained in the writings of Josephus that the Pharisees and Sadducees differed greatly.
"But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus’s time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." JacobLMetz ( talk) 04:44, 30 September 2020 (UTC)Antiquity of the Jews Book 18.1.6
The comparison section is sourced to the Jewish Virtual Library and appears to be a rather direct copy/paste job. Furthermore, according to Perennial sources the JVL is generally considered unreliable. As such I'm going to cut this section. I'm gonna leave this comment over at Essenes and Pharisees too. IrishStephen ( talk) 00:32, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; So this is a clear statement of the existence of the position of the prophet. Then how they can deny Moses and deny the prophets before them ? 2A02:2F0F:E001:E900:1CC7:9F8:A2AF:D1EF ( talk) 17:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
The page mentions both Mark and Matthew but omits the parallel passage in Luke 20:27-40. i.e. all 3 synoptic gospels contain this critique. I suggest edits along the lines of : "The New Testament, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, ... The parallel pericopes of Mark 12, Matthew 22, and Luke 20, recount a dispute ..." With a consequence change in the references section. My only hesitation is not being entirely sure if there was another reason for the omission for a polemical reason.
Text: The New Testament, specifically the books of Mark and Matthew, describe anecdotes which hint at hostility between Jesus and the Sadducaic establishment. A pericope in Mark 12 and Matthew 22 recounts a dispute between Jesus and a Sadducee who challenged the resurrection of the dead by asking who the husband of a resurrected woman would be who had been married to each of seven brothers at one point. Jesus responds by saying that the resurrected "neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." He also insults them on their own terms as knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God, presumably a claim that even though the Sadducee insisted on the written law, Jesus considered them to have gotten it wrong. Cjacooper ( talk) 12:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
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Hi. It's really not so clear as to what their position was regarding oral law. It is still up for debate, but then again, even the Karaites did not reject oral law--they rejected a specific oral law. As for life after death, their beliefs are entirely a matter of conjecture. Whatever position we take, there will be someone who rejects it. Danny 20:37 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
That's not correct. I am a Karaite. We reject the Oral Law. One may choose to follow it if he/she wishes, as long as it does not contradict the Tanakh and as long as they do not make that tradition on par with Torah. -- Yoshiah ap 14:40, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The problem is that both sources--Christian reference books and the Talmud--are writing from the perspective of people who disagreed with the Saduccees and are trying to place them within their own world view. I have a couple of sources at work that I could check tomorrow, but I was actually reading about it a couple of months ago, and it really is pretty murky. Danny 01:43 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
They were republicans, and thats no compliment.-- Stevert
Yeah, let's go Libertarian and get rid of both evils. -- Yoshiah ap 14:40, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
And what evidence is there that any sect of the Saducees accepted the entirety of the Hebrew Bible? -Drew —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.82.136 ( talk) 15:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Feel free to compare with this wiki article
Yoshia removed this historically documented factual text under the impression that it is POV.
Since Karaites are said to descend from Sadducees I can see how this might be difficult to swallow, but I notice that Karaites do not actually claim this link themselves. The fact is that the Zadokites were forced from the temple from 175BCE onwards and those who called themselves sadducees in Jerusalem from that time until the temple was destroyed were in fact just politically powerful pretenders. Caiaphas included. Zestauferov 07:37, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I do not know where the original evidence comes from, but I do know that several experts in the field (e.g. Falk, Maccoby, Chilton) including the Jewish encyclopaedia write about the matter. Pharisees could not have been pretenders because there was no requirement for them to be Kohanim, while real Zadokites had to be. Why should it matter so much to you anyway? I thought that Karaites were descended from a variety of jews who rejected the oral tradition. Zestauferov 23:42, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For turth! :-) It is so nice to find people on wiki without an angle, I am sorry for connecting your interest in the article to your religion. Hope you can forgive me for that. Now I was speaking only about the fact that Zadokites had to be Kohanim until 175BCE, then after it became possible to buy the position the original Zadokites left in protest, while the new high-priests who according to the authors I have mentioned believed there was no requirement to be a Kohanim. Isn't this good enough to mention in the article?01:53, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
July 13, 2007: I have fixed the one reference to BC and the one reference to AD...This are not very nice things to write in an article concerning Judaism. We accept the terms BCE, and CE, respectively instead, since the terms BC, and AD are specifically references to the Christian Church and the Gregorian Calendar....
Hi Z. Below is my proposal for a new introduction. I've tried to merge both the important parts of your edit, and the existing version. Please tell me what you think.
The sect of the Sadducees - which may have originated as a Political Party - was founded in the second century BCE and ceased to exist sometime after the first century CE. It's rival, the Pharisees, is said to have originated from the same time period, but has survived as Orthodox Judaism.
The name "Sadducees" in Hebrew is "tsedduqim", a name they adopted to indicate that they were descendants of the High Priest Zadok, who anointed Solomon king during the First Temple era. While little or none of their own writings have been preserved til today, they seem to have indeed been a priestly group, associated with the leadership of the Temple in Jerusalem. Some say that they were not truly descendants of the High Priest Tzadok, but rather the followers of another Tzadok who rebelled against his Rabbinical Teacher.
Most of what we know about the Sadducees comes from Josephus, who wrote that they were a quarrelsome group whose followers were wealthy and powerful, and that he considered them boorish in social interactions. We know something of them from discussions in the Talmud, the core work of rabbinic Judaism, which is based on the teachings of Pharisaic Judaism. However, historians find the Talmud's historical statements on many issues to be suspect.
-- Josiah 02:37, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes it looks good, but since the three authors (experts in their field) seem to have some sources which indicate the Kohanim Zadokites went to the Deadsea sometime after 175BCE and that the High-priests after that date until the end were not all Kohanim as they were supposed to be don't you think that this deserves som mention too? Zestauferov 16:20, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
An important change must be made: "It's rival, the Pharisees, is said to have originated from the same time period, but has survived as rabbinic Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is characterized by adherence to the rabbinic understanding of the oral law, as understood by Jewish codes of law and the responsa literature. This would include modern day denominations of Judaism such as Hasidic Judaism, Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism. RK
RK, does that also include Progressive, Reform, Liberal, Humanist, and Reconstructionist Judaism in your opinion? Zestauferov 16:20, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 07:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
User:IZAK has posted the following proposal on the Requested moves page:
Sadducee → Sadducees : This article's title is presently in the singular form. It should be changed to the plural to match Pharisees -- its "sister" article on its related topic that is written in the plural form. (Presently, Sadducees is only a redirect page to the main Sadducee article -- but it should be the other way around.)
Please add * Support or * Oppose followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~"
Doesn't the name "Zadokite" suggest that the party originates back to a time when the high priests weere Zadokites - that is, prior to the Hasmonean usurpation of the priesthood? john k 06:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Is the Jewish word "צְדוּקִים" correct? I ran it through Google Translate and it came up with "Inspection". Can anybody confirm? -- Nosehair2200 ( talk) 00:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
I haven't time to work on this now but Meyer Waxman in History of Jewish Literature vol. 1 makes a strong case that Josephus is highly unreliable. Josepus was attempting to parallel the Saducees to the greek epicureans (for propoganda purposes). It's very possible that Saducees did believe in some form of afterlife. Wolf2191 17:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
"Many scholars are skeptical of the historicity of this tradition." weaselish which scholars. Was a census done? It can easily be argued that Tzadok made a weak Saduccean sect into a powerful one. (Waxman- though he recants for some reason.) In any event will delete. Wolf2191 17:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
If you want to establish that the Sadducees believed in some sort of afterlife, you will need to present some sort of evidence in favor of it.
I have removed the "probably" from the article. There is no probably about it. It is a popular position, but the Essenes were excluded from the temple and eschewed bloodline, making any Zadokite connection with the Essenes highly improbable. The fact that there were at least 800 scribal hands responsible for the copies of scrolls found at Qumran suggests that the scrolls were the product of somewhere that could support so many scribes, ie Jerusalem. It is safer not to assume an Essene connection with the DSS community. -- spin control 12:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Wow! Someone knew exactly what he or she wanted to do on this page and exactly how to work Wikipedia to sort of game the system, but the person still does not want to identify him or herself. Let's see: person first made major edits from IP address 138.16.115.05. But, the bot saw that an unregistered user was making major changes on a page and simply reverted everything back! So, the user registered first as HBSamuels and redid all the major edits. Then the same user registered again as Katherineblessing and corrected a bunch of formatting errors that were left on the page after the major rewrite. And then, to cap it off, the user still logged in just from a different IP address (138.16.115.05) and did 2 more minor corrections (the second of which is still incorrect...). Now, this last correction from this last unidentified/unregistered user also precludes any editor of reverting the edits. So, someone that does not want to identify him or herself just did a major rewrite on this page, and for anyone interested in a due process of change here, the step by step option doesn't even exist any more. All that is left to the average editor is to go an look at each change that was made, one by one, and decide which version is better. The problem is that close to 50 major changes (I am estimating, guessing only here) were done, and going over them one by one is going to be a very long process, that could take a couple of hours at the least. Now, the changes that were made are serious, they are not vandalism. Looks like some scholar on the field studied the page carefully, and had the final product already written even before he or she came in and did the job in the manner described above. So, for me, the option left now is to study carefully all the major changes that were made, and decide if there is anything from the tens of lines of the old article that were obliterated that could still apply to the subject. I intend to do that sometime in the future, time allowing. I just wanted to record here what happened in case there are any admins around looking at it, and who would also have some insights or opinions on due change process in Wikipedia and on the 'system' that was used here today to accomplish a major rewrite of this page in one fell swoop, precluding even the possibility of asking the author to redo his changes step by step. warshy talk 20:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
I think P.D. is correct here. My question, to anyone interested would be:
The problem is that the "Oral Law" is not 'oral' any more, but has also been written down. Not only written down, but for some, who argue that the "Oral Law" had already also been given to Moses on Sinai, but written in stone, as it were. So where do we go from here?
As per reactions to my last comment here, right above, not too many people are checking this spot anyhow. I still am, just in case... :P warshy talk 21:08, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
The name is a greek transliteration so shouldn't the greek be in the header as well as the hebrew?. Σαδδουκαῖος -- Teacherbrock ( talk) 03:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Re: As Opposed to the Jesus Movement. This section states that Matthew depicts the Sadducees as a "Brood of Vipers" and cites Matt.3:7. It may be a small point but Matthew is describing a comment of John the Baptist, who does not appear to distinguish between the Sadducees or the Pharisees, calling them both a "Brood of Vipers". - In which case I'm not sure it's completely accurate or necessary to single the Sadducees out as the target of John's venom. Mannanan51 ( talk) 05:38, 23 May 2011 (UTC)mannanan51
Also I should add that Matthew 23:33 seems to focus on the Pharisees, not Sadducees. Overall I am under the impression that, although the Essenes and other groups may have called the Sadducees wicked and blamed them for the Judaic wars etc., Jesus was actually more opposed to the Pharisees, and his religious arguments with Sadducees were more benign. This should probably be mentioned to balance out what is said only about Sadducees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.209.146 ( talk) 22:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Why would you otherwise revert a minor edit correcting BC/AD - and occasionally, inconsistently CE(!) - to BCE/CE? -- 120.148.210.64 ( talk) 19:07, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
This is a quote from the article: The Rabbis, who are traditionally seen as the descendants of the Pharisees, describe the similarities and differences between the two sects in Mishnah Yadaim. The Mishnah explains that the Sadducees state, “So too, regarding the Holy Scriptures, their impurity is according to (our) love for them. But the books of Homer, which are not beloved, do not defile the hands.”[21]
Please! This is so bad it's actually funny. The Mishna in Yadayim says the exact opposite: Rabbi Yohanan Ben Zakkai, the Pharisee, said this phrase to the Sadducees. I don't have the time or inclination to change this embarrassing mistake. Maybe some noble Wikipedian will do it. 68.198.65.141 ( talk) 19:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It says they didn't believe in an afterlife, but then shortly afterward it says they believed in Sheol. This seems like a clear contradiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.100.44 ( talk) 19:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Sheol in the Torah is associated with death, as the first response above already explains, not with an 'afterlife.' Afterlife implies there is some kind of 'life' after death. Sheol is simple death, not some kind of afterlife. The Pharisees believed in some kind of afterlife, such as the resurrection of the dead, following later Hebrew prophecy, but not the Torah. Sadducees were probably focused much more specifically on the Torah itself. As for the belief in the resurrection of the dead, which the Pharisees inherited from the prophets, it was later reinterpreted in Christian theology as immortality of the soul. warshy (¥¥) 22:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi Ermenrich, why do you think that the Sadducees were not Heretics according to Judaism? See three examples: "In the Talmud the term apikoros refers to the *Sadducees (Kid. 66a); to those who denigrate rabbinic authority even in such seemingly insignificant ways as calling a sage by his first name; and to those who shame neighbors before the sages (Sanh. 99b)." from Jewish Virtual Library; "The Greek term άίρεσις originally denoted "division," "sect," "religious" or "philosophical party," and is applied by Josephus ("B. J." ii. 8, § 1, and elsewhere) to the three Jewish sects—Sadducees, Pharisees, and Essenes" from The Jewish Encyclopedia; "But the following have no portion therein [the world to come]: He who maintains that resurrection is not a biblical doctrine, the Torah was not divinely revealed, and an epikoros…Clearly, this Mishnah is not a roster of all Jewish belief, but rather focuses on the issues that fractured the Jewish community during that period. The Sages stressed these particular tenets of faith in order to distinguish the faithful rabbinic community from Sadducees and other sectarian groups." from Jewish Ideas.org I am citing WP:RS so what's your excuse for deleting my categories? IZAK ( talk) 23:10, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
As a student of European history in general and of Jewish history in Europe as part of European history I view the current attempt to expand the use of the category "Heresy in Judaism" in Wikipedia as an attempt NOT to improve the historical and encyclopedic level of the encyclopedia, but rather as an attempt to enforce religious dogma through the encyclopedia. It should be denounced and banned from Wikipedia. As a religiously and ideologically disengaged (i.e. neutral) student of history I find the entire category as it currently is rather unuseful. But the current attempt to expand and enforce its use is a clear attempt to enforce religious dogma through the encyclopedia. I completely agree with all arguments against it put forth above by Ehrmenrich. Thank you. warshy (¥¥) 17:20, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone,
I found written in the Etymology section the following
"Flavius Josephus mentions in Antiquities of the Jews that "one Judas, a Gaulonite, of a city whose name was Gamala, who taking with him Sadduc, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt".[5] Paul L. Maier suggests that the sect drew their name from the Sadduc mentioned by Josephus.[6]"
I find this to be highly unlikely as Josephus clearly explained that there were three sects among the Jews, the Sadducees being one of them; it was a fourth philosophy that became the fourth sect by the hand of this Judas. Therefore, the Sadduc that Judas took with him could not possibly have been the origin of the Sadducees. Besides, even Josephus noted about this fourth philosophy "These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." It is well known and clearly explained in the writings of Josephus that the Pharisees and Sadducees differed greatly.
"But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus’s time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy." JacobLMetz ( talk) 04:44, 30 September 2020 (UTC)Antiquity of the Jews Book 18.1.6
The comparison section is sourced to the Jewish Virtual Library and appears to be a rather direct copy/paste job. Furthermore, according to Perennial sources the JVL is generally considered unreliable. As such I'm going to cut this section. I'm gonna leave this comment over at Essenes and Pharisees too. IrishStephen ( talk) 00:32, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; So this is a clear statement of the existence of the position of the prophet. Then how they can deny Moses and deny the prophets before them ? 2A02:2F0F:E001:E900:1CC7:9F8:A2AF:D1EF ( talk) 17:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
The page mentions both Mark and Matthew but omits the parallel passage in Luke 20:27-40. i.e. all 3 synoptic gospels contain this critique. I suggest edits along the lines of : "The New Testament, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, ... The parallel pericopes of Mark 12, Matthew 22, and Luke 20, recount a dispute ..." With a consequence change in the references section. My only hesitation is not being entirely sure if there was another reason for the omission for a polemical reason.
Text: The New Testament, specifically the books of Mark and Matthew, describe anecdotes which hint at hostility between Jesus and the Sadducaic establishment. A pericope in Mark 12 and Matthew 22 recounts a dispute between Jesus and a Sadducee who challenged the resurrection of the dead by asking who the husband of a resurrected woman would be who had been married to each of seven brothers at one point. Jesus responds by saying that the resurrected "neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." He also insults them on their own terms as knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God, presumably a claim that even though the Sadducee insisted on the written law, Jesus considered them to have gotten it wrong. Cjacooper ( talk) 12:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)