This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I would like to propose that the SU-100, SU-85 and SU-122 be merged into a single article. The vehicles are basically the same differing guns. Oberiko 15:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
This image is grossly incorrect for the SU-122. It is quite obviously an SU-85. The name of the image even calls it an SU-85. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.91.69 ( talk • contribs)
"Whoever made the image photoshopped it"—please assume just a bit of good faith before making unfounded accusations. — Michael Z. 2006-02-08 20:31 Z
There was a wrong image, added by Megapixie. SU-100 SPG is pictured on it. I replaced it by correct image of SU-122. LostArtilleryman 05:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There are some incorrect facts in this section. According to my native Russian AFV experts book A.G.Solyankin et al. "Soviet medium self-propelled guns 1941-1945", there were four subvariants of SU-122:
There was not any SU-122s on the SU-100 base - it is quite obvious confuse with SU-85M variant. LostArtilleryman 05:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
This article does not need to begin with the story of why tanks were invented or the Red Army's experiments with SPGs in the 1920s....nor should it invent new terms like "SPH". A link to History of the tank will do that quite well.
This is what the web is about - give the content that is relevant to the immediate subject and use links for anything that might be supplemental or related. A user who wants info on some of this background stuff should be offered the chance to easily get to it - but should not be forced to wade through peripheral material and run-on sentences.
If an article on Red Army self-propelled artillery of the 1920s and 30s is needed, great, let's write it. But not here.
Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 16:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
If the material also exists in the SU-57-2 article that is all the more reason to not re-create teh same error here. Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 16:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
English-language sources on this vehicle are plentiful. In accordance with wikipedia policy please use those unless nothing else is available. DMorpheus ( talk) 22:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Please do not quote from sources unless the text is shown in quotes and credited. Cut-and-paste from other sources is a no-no. Thanks. DMorpheus ( talk) 12:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
From the cited source: http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-tango/tango-numbers-su/t-34_series/su122/su122-intro.html
"They first saw combat on the Volchov Front in the winter of 1942-1943, and it took part in the Battle at Kursk. It proved to be effective as an assault gun, delivering direct fire during attacks on strongpoints. However the guns armour penetration was less than expected and therefore a HEAT projectile was developed, but it was only accurate at short ranges and its penetration was still disapointing."
From the article: "The SU-122 did reasonably well in combat against the Wehrmacht, although the HEAT round for its gun didn't perform up to expectations. The SU-122 proved effective in direct fire on strongholds. The armour penetration value of the 122 mm howitzer was less than expected, so the new BP-460A HEAT projectile was developed and used from May 1943. However, this also didn't perform up to expectations as it was only accurate at short ranges and its penetration was still disappointing.[1][5]"
Not verbatim but awfully close. DMorpheus ( talk) 15:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
←Thank you for locating this issue. I have revised infringing or derivative text that I have identified at the identified source at [1]. If there are additional infringements remaining from other sources, please note these or re-tag the article and relist it at the copyright problems board. I have some concerns that the source in question, battlefield.ru, though evidently an impressive site, may constitute a "self published source". I note that the referenced page offers no clarification on where it draws its information. The article would likely be improved by the location of better sources to substantiate this information. I have tagged it {{ self-published}} accordingly. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Soviet tank and AFV production never stopped in 1941-42 and not every factory moved (STZ for example did not move, and not all of the Kirov plant moved). This is another example of content that, if referenced properly, belongs in another article, not the SU-122 article. Perhaps soviet tank production article? Not here, because the issue is not unique to or owned by the SU-122. DMorpheus ( talk) 22:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This page is filling up and is in danger of getting too long.
I suggest creating a new article called "Development of the Soviet Self-Propelled Howitzer in World War 2" and moving much of the information here to that.
Any objections?-- S Marshall Talk/ Cont 13:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the uncited, unsourced claim that any SU-122s entered Wehrmacht service. There is no source to back this at present. Two sources previously cited include one low-quality self-published site, and one with a photo of a single vehicle. This SU-122 is unquestionably in German hands; whether it is in operational service is a different matter. There is no way to tell. Although I suspect it is under evaluation, my suspicion is no more a credible source than any other speculation. Therefore, all we can say is that the Germans captured at least one SU-122. What they did with it, we don't know. Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 17:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I just did a quick re-write to address some of the tagging concerns raised over the last couple months. I eliminated all self-published references and references to plastic model kit instructions. I did an extensive copyedit. I shortened what I felt was undue weight given to prototypes and variants that never reached production (some of which was duplicative anyway). I took out some content that is questionable in terms of copyright. I slightly reorganized the article so that all variants are in a single section. I think the article still needs some better referencing but it is hopefully in better shape than it was. DMorpheus ( talk) 14:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I've never done this before, looking for a little help. The close range commentary about the effectiveness of the HE round for the 122mm gun violates the basic principles of how HE penetration works, versus AP shot. I've rewritten this, along with a link to a US Army publication at the University of Nebraska with copies of Soviet provided information on the Mean Variance on this SU-122. Please note the vehicle involved is not clear, however a 122mm armed SP gun in 1943 must be the SU-122 as there is no other vehicle in production at that time. My cite format is terrible, and one of the two cites didn't copy on the main article. I was editing the last full paragraph of the "Service Hitory" secton. http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1164&context=usarmyresearch
Soviet table are different than other countries tables in what numbers they use reference 50% dispersion values and means. A very good web-published page on how to compare these tables is my second reference. Again, this is a simple understanding of statistics and math, and I included the cite so people can explore the issue by someone who has already written an excellent exposition. http://www.panzer-war.com/page34.html
Shawnmmcc ( talk) 22:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Trials ran from 30 November to 19 December 1942, and uncovered various faults in the design, including insufficient elevation, a flawed shell transfer mechanism, poor ventilation for the crew compartment, and the fact that the commander had to assist in operating the gun, which made him unable to successfully carry out his other duties.
I just happened to be flipping through Zaloga 1984, and my eyes lit on one of the photos of an SU-122 with German markings. FYI: Zaloga's caption reads in part “This particular SU-122 was captured by the Germans and sent to Prague for trials.” Page 160, in case it's needed for a reference. — Michael Z. 2008-08-27 00:13 z
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I would like to propose that the SU-100, SU-85 and SU-122 be merged into a single article. The vehicles are basically the same differing guns. Oberiko 15:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
This image is grossly incorrect for the SU-122. It is quite obviously an SU-85. The name of the image even calls it an SU-85. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.91.69 ( talk • contribs)
"Whoever made the image photoshopped it"—please assume just a bit of good faith before making unfounded accusations. — Michael Z. 2006-02-08 20:31 Z
There was a wrong image, added by Megapixie. SU-100 SPG is pictured on it. I replaced it by correct image of SU-122. LostArtilleryman 05:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There are some incorrect facts in this section. According to my native Russian AFV experts book A.G.Solyankin et al. "Soviet medium self-propelled guns 1941-1945", there were four subvariants of SU-122:
There was not any SU-122s on the SU-100 base - it is quite obvious confuse with SU-85M variant. LostArtilleryman 05:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
This article does not need to begin with the story of why tanks were invented or the Red Army's experiments with SPGs in the 1920s....nor should it invent new terms like "SPH". A link to History of the tank will do that quite well.
This is what the web is about - give the content that is relevant to the immediate subject and use links for anything that might be supplemental or related. A user who wants info on some of this background stuff should be offered the chance to easily get to it - but should not be forced to wade through peripheral material and run-on sentences.
If an article on Red Army self-propelled artillery of the 1920s and 30s is needed, great, let's write it. But not here.
Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 16:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
If the material also exists in the SU-57-2 article that is all the more reason to not re-create teh same error here. Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 16:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
English-language sources on this vehicle are plentiful. In accordance with wikipedia policy please use those unless nothing else is available. DMorpheus ( talk) 22:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Please do not quote from sources unless the text is shown in quotes and credited. Cut-and-paste from other sources is a no-no. Thanks. DMorpheus ( talk) 12:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
From the cited source: http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-tango/tango-numbers-su/t-34_series/su122/su122-intro.html
"They first saw combat on the Volchov Front in the winter of 1942-1943, and it took part in the Battle at Kursk. It proved to be effective as an assault gun, delivering direct fire during attacks on strongpoints. However the guns armour penetration was less than expected and therefore a HEAT projectile was developed, but it was only accurate at short ranges and its penetration was still disapointing."
From the article: "The SU-122 did reasonably well in combat against the Wehrmacht, although the HEAT round for its gun didn't perform up to expectations. The SU-122 proved effective in direct fire on strongholds. The armour penetration value of the 122 mm howitzer was less than expected, so the new BP-460A HEAT projectile was developed and used from May 1943. However, this also didn't perform up to expectations as it was only accurate at short ranges and its penetration was still disappointing.[1][5]"
Not verbatim but awfully close. DMorpheus ( talk) 15:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
←Thank you for locating this issue. I have revised infringing or derivative text that I have identified at the identified source at [1]. If there are additional infringements remaining from other sources, please note these or re-tag the article and relist it at the copyright problems board. I have some concerns that the source in question, battlefield.ru, though evidently an impressive site, may constitute a "self published source". I note that the referenced page offers no clarification on where it draws its information. The article would likely be improved by the location of better sources to substantiate this information. I have tagged it {{ self-published}} accordingly. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Soviet tank and AFV production never stopped in 1941-42 and not every factory moved (STZ for example did not move, and not all of the Kirov plant moved). This is another example of content that, if referenced properly, belongs in another article, not the SU-122 article. Perhaps soviet tank production article? Not here, because the issue is not unique to or owned by the SU-122. DMorpheus ( talk) 22:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This page is filling up and is in danger of getting too long.
I suggest creating a new article called "Development of the Soviet Self-Propelled Howitzer in World War 2" and moving much of the information here to that.
Any objections?-- S Marshall Talk/ Cont 13:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the uncited, unsourced claim that any SU-122s entered Wehrmacht service. There is no source to back this at present. Two sources previously cited include one low-quality self-published site, and one with a photo of a single vehicle. This SU-122 is unquestionably in German hands; whether it is in operational service is a different matter. There is no way to tell. Although I suspect it is under evaluation, my suspicion is no more a credible source than any other speculation. Therefore, all we can say is that the Germans captured at least one SU-122. What they did with it, we don't know. Regards, DMorpheus ( talk) 17:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I just did a quick re-write to address some of the tagging concerns raised over the last couple months. I eliminated all self-published references and references to plastic model kit instructions. I did an extensive copyedit. I shortened what I felt was undue weight given to prototypes and variants that never reached production (some of which was duplicative anyway). I took out some content that is questionable in terms of copyright. I slightly reorganized the article so that all variants are in a single section. I think the article still needs some better referencing but it is hopefully in better shape than it was. DMorpheus ( talk) 14:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I've never done this before, looking for a little help. The close range commentary about the effectiveness of the HE round for the 122mm gun violates the basic principles of how HE penetration works, versus AP shot. I've rewritten this, along with a link to a US Army publication at the University of Nebraska with copies of Soviet provided information on the Mean Variance on this SU-122. Please note the vehicle involved is not clear, however a 122mm armed SP gun in 1943 must be the SU-122 as there is no other vehicle in production at that time. My cite format is terrible, and one of the two cites didn't copy on the main article. I was editing the last full paragraph of the "Service Hitory" secton. http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1164&context=usarmyresearch
Soviet table are different than other countries tables in what numbers they use reference 50% dispersion values and means. A very good web-published page on how to compare these tables is my second reference. Again, this is a simple understanding of statistics and math, and I included the cite so people can explore the issue by someone who has already written an excellent exposition. http://www.panzer-war.com/page34.html
Shawnmmcc ( talk) 22:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Trials ran from 30 November to 19 December 1942, and uncovered various faults in the design, including insufficient elevation, a flawed shell transfer mechanism, poor ventilation for the crew compartment, and the fact that the commander had to assist in operating the gun, which made him unable to successfully carry out his other duties.
I just happened to be flipping through Zaloga 1984, and my eyes lit on one of the photos of an SU-122 with German markings. FYI: Zaloga's caption reads in part “This particular SU-122 was captured by the Germans and sent to Prague for trials.” Page 160, in case it's needed for a reference. — Michael Z. 2008-08-27 00:13 z