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Does anyone have a photo of the STOL that they can contribute? WikiDon 16:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC) Contact FIRST AIR out of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Ph 613-521-9311 or 800-661-3591 They operate DHC2, DHC6, DHC7 and may have something you can use. We may also have something on the Found Aircraft model FBA-2C1 in about 2 or 3 weeks that could be used. J.W. McPhee, Found Aircraft Canada Inc.
I've removed some planes, like the Airbus A318, that should not be there. Lets limit this list to either planes that meet the official NATO definition, or planes that have significant design trade-offs needed for reduced runway requirements.
The first part gets you things like the Zenith CH-601, and the second part gets you the C-17 (which could have been much faster or carry more had they not needed the runway minimums.
There is no need to have a list of every plane, just a list of significant examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 ( talk • contribs)
Autogyros are STOL. Unless they have collective pitch control to give VTOL capability they need a short run to gain enough rotor speed and lift to takeoff. My understanding of STOL is that it applies to any aerodyne capable of short field takeoff, not just to fixed wing aeroplanes. Note that the NASA/DoD definition given refers to aircraft, not specifically to aeroplanes. -- Cheesy Mike 14:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay I dug up in the most authoritative references I have on this subject and I have to start off by admitting that you are right, an autogyro should be considered a STOL aircraft.
Here is what I found:
STOL (Short Take Off and Landing) STOL performance of an aircraft is the ability of the aircraft to take off and clear a 50-foot obstruction in a distance of 1,500 feet from the beginning the takeoff run.(sic) It must also be able to stop within 1,500 feet after crossing over a 50-foot obstacle on landing. (Crane, Dale, Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms page 492, Third Edition, Aviation Supplies and Academics, Newcastle Washington, 1997 ISBN 1-56027-287-2)
By this definition then clearly gyros are STOL aircraft. The same book also says:
STOVL (Short TakeOff and Vertical Landing). STOVL performance of an aircraft is the ability of the aircraft to take off and clear a 50-foot obstruction in a distance of 1,500 feet from the beginning of the takeoff run. The aircraft can land vertically, with no forward speed.(Crane, Dale, Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms page 493, Third Edition, Aviation Supplies and Academics, Newcastle Washington, 1997 ISBN 1-56027-287-2)
By this definition Gyros are also STOVL aircraft, STOVL clearly being a sub-set of STOL aircraft, since every STOVL aircraft will meet the STOL definition as well.
Furthermore:
Gyrocopters - The gyrocopter has never taken off as a viable commercial enterprise, although this has been tried many times. Where are you now, Umbaugh, Cierva, Avian? Gyroplanes offer STOL performance without helicopter costs and complexity. Gyrocopters can't hover, fly backwards or sideways, or take off and land vertically. But they can come very close to this. (Foster, Timothy RV, The Aviator's Catalog, A Source Book of Aeronautica page 94, Litton Educational Publishing, 1981, ISBN 0-442-22465-6)
I think this source pretty clearly shows that gyroplanes and helicopters too are STOL aircraft.
Of course this does all raise a problem. In checking the Cessna 172N POH I find that the gross weight/sea level/standard day field lengths required over a 50 foot obstacle are 1440 feet for take-off and 1250 feet for landing. This qualifies the unmodified (no STOL kit) 172N as a STOL aircraft. It also means that probably 70% of all the aircraft ever produced are STOL aircraft, yes including all the balloons, motor gliders, airships, ultralights, powered parachutes, paragliders, hang gliders, powered lifts and in fact every category of aircraft, since they meet these definitions and also the NASA one quoted in the article itself (virtually the same definition as here). Only airliners, some bigger twins and conventional military fighters, among a few other types would be excluded.
So by these definitions it is true that autogyros are considered STOL aircraft. It also means that the category of STOL aircraft is so broad and completely inclusive as to not be very useful. - Ahunt 02:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this webpage up. I actually did find that page in my background search. It was written in 1968, which was before the NASA definition was written. The author, Lieutenant Colonel Walter P. Maiersperger, USAF (Ret), essentially says that there is no accepted definition of STOL (at least there wasn't 40 years ago) and proposes his own:
The STOL mode of flight is one during which an airplane taking off or landing is operated at climb-out and approach speeds lower than the conventionally accepted margins of airspeed above the power-off stalling speed of the airplane.
The problems with this definition are two-fold. First it really isn't a functional definition for deciding which aircraft fit the STOL category or not, as any aircraft could be operated at airspeeds below the "conventionally accepted margins". A C-172 flown on approach at 1.2 Vso instead of the "conventionally accepted margin" of 1.3 Vso would qualify. Secondly it has been superseded by definitions like the NASA one and the similar one quoted above from the Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms.
It is probably a good thing that Maiersperger's definition isn't generally used or this talk page would get very long debating which aircraft were "in" or "out". It may do anyway. - Ahunt 15:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
You do make a good point - that aircraft should only be considered to be STOL if they have shorter take-off and landing performance than a comparable aircraft. That is exactly the point of installing a "STOL kit"! Unfortunately we seem to be stuck with the NASA definition or the similar Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms one, both of which makes the category itself rather moot. I think you are suggesting that this article needs a better definition that would be more "exclusive"? - Ahunt 16:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Well I guess we could collect up a list of definitions of STOL that all contradict each other and then the article would cite them all and say that there is no agreement on what STOL means. But that would be the whole article, as you couldn't make any pronouncements as to which aircraft (or airplanes) are included or not. It does all start to form a picture here that this isn't a very useful article. I really don't see a solution here, except to "unwatch" the article! - Ahunt 23:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
A discussion about the future of the aircraft list in this article is going on at WikiProject Aircraft. Any editors watching this article are welcome to join in. - Ahunt ( talk) 19:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
But the link does not have many of the aircraft on this list.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 18:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Really, I have many hours flying C-130's for Uncle Sam and I beg to differ.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 18:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Never claimed that, statement is this: any Herc driver worth his salt can do things with one that Lockheed never anticipated. The aircraft is capable of so much more than its "official" designed uses. As you can tell by its multiple variants. And the newer ones even more so as Uncle Sam's official usage parameters are relatively narrow and blithely ignored by the crews.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 02:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't helicopters and airships also qualify as STOL? If vertical takeoff is a separate classification then helicopters wouldn't qualify, but still, what about airships? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.9.129 ( talk) 00:11, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
User:WikiFlier removed three definitions (Aeronautical dictionary, Transport Canada/Arizona DOT and Columbia) with the edit summary "Deleted excess definitions". I have restored these. I fail to see how you can arbitrarily remove three well-referenced definitions. If it has no other effect, the deletion makes the article more US-centric. One of the main points of this article is that there is no single accepted definition of STOL - the multiplicity of definitions proves this point. If you want to remove definitions please discuss here and gain consensus first. - Ahunt ( talk) 14:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Is it "a STOL" or "an EsTeeOhEll"? This is not an idle question, a wikipedian (and anyone) must know the proper article a/an. - Altenmann >talk 22:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
STOL article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Does anyone have a photo of the STOL that they can contribute? WikiDon 16:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC) Contact FIRST AIR out of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Ph 613-521-9311 or 800-661-3591 They operate DHC2, DHC6, DHC7 and may have something you can use. We may also have something on the Found Aircraft model FBA-2C1 in about 2 or 3 weeks that could be used. J.W. McPhee, Found Aircraft Canada Inc.
I've removed some planes, like the Airbus A318, that should not be there. Lets limit this list to either planes that meet the official NATO definition, or planes that have significant design trade-offs needed for reduced runway requirements.
The first part gets you things like the Zenith CH-601, and the second part gets you the C-17 (which could have been much faster or carry more had they not needed the runway minimums.
There is no need to have a list of every plane, just a list of significant examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitplane01 ( talk • contribs)
Autogyros are STOL. Unless they have collective pitch control to give VTOL capability they need a short run to gain enough rotor speed and lift to takeoff. My understanding of STOL is that it applies to any aerodyne capable of short field takeoff, not just to fixed wing aeroplanes. Note that the NASA/DoD definition given refers to aircraft, not specifically to aeroplanes. -- Cheesy Mike 14:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay I dug up in the most authoritative references I have on this subject and I have to start off by admitting that you are right, an autogyro should be considered a STOL aircraft.
Here is what I found:
STOL (Short Take Off and Landing) STOL performance of an aircraft is the ability of the aircraft to take off and clear a 50-foot obstruction in a distance of 1,500 feet from the beginning the takeoff run.(sic) It must also be able to stop within 1,500 feet after crossing over a 50-foot obstacle on landing. (Crane, Dale, Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms page 492, Third Edition, Aviation Supplies and Academics, Newcastle Washington, 1997 ISBN 1-56027-287-2)
By this definition then clearly gyros are STOL aircraft. The same book also says:
STOVL (Short TakeOff and Vertical Landing). STOVL performance of an aircraft is the ability of the aircraft to take off and clear a 50-foot obstruction in a distance of 1,500 feet from the beginning of the takeoff run. The aircraft can land vertically, with no forward speed.(Crane, Dale, Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms page 493, Third Edition, Aviation Supplies and Academics, Newcastle Washington, 1997 ISBN 1-56027-287-2)
By this definition Gyros are also STOVL aircraft, STOVL clearly being a sub-set of STOL aircraft, since every STOVL aircraft will meet the STOL definition as well.
Furthermore:
Gyrocopters - The gyrocopter has never taken off as a viable commercial enterprise, although this has been tried many times. Where are you now, Umbaugh, Cierva, Avian? Gyroplanes offer STOL performance without helicopter costs and complexity. Gyrocopters can't hover, fly backwards or sideways, or take off and land vertically. But they can come very close to this. (Foster, Timothy RV, The Aviator's Catalog, A Source Book of Aeronautica page 94, Litton Educational Publishing, 1981, ISBN 0-442-22465-6)
I think this source pretty clearly shows that gyroplanes and helicopters too are STOL aircraft.
Of course this does all raise a problem. In checking the Cessna 172N POH I find that the gross weight/sea level/standard day field lengths required over a 50 foot obstacle are 1440 feet for take-off and 1250 feet for landing. This qualifies the unmodified (no STOL kit) 172N as a STOL aircraft. It also means that probably 70% of all the aircraft ever produced are STOL aircraft, yes including all the balloons, motor gliders, airships, ultralights, powered parachutes, paragliders, hang gliders, powered lifts and in fact every category of aircraft, since they meet these definitions and also the NASA one quoted in the article itself (virtually the same definition as here). Only airliners, some bigger twins and conventional military fighters, among a few other types would be excluded.
So by these definitions it is true that autogyros are considered STOL aircraft. It also means that the category of STOL aircraft is so broad and completely inclusive as to not be very useful. - Ahunt 02:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this webpage up. I actually did find that page in my background search. It was written in 1968, which was before the NASA definition was written. The author, Lieutenant Colonel Walter P. Maiersperger, USAF (Ret), essentially says that there is no accepted definition of STOL (at least there wasn't 40 years ago) and proposes his own:
The STOL mode of flight is one during which an airplane taking off or landing is operated at climb-out and approach speeds lower than the conventionally accepted margins of airspeed above the power-off stalling speed of the airplane.
The problems with this definition are two-fold. First it really isn't a functional definition for deciding which aircraft fit the STOL category or not, as any aircraft could be operated at airspeeds below the "conventionally accepted margins". A C-172 flown on approach at 1.2 Vso instead of the "conventionally accepted margin" of 1.3 Vso would qualify. Secondly it has been superseded by definitions like the NASA one and the similar one quoted above from the Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms.
It is probably a good thing that Maiersperger's definition isn't generally used or this talk page would get very long debating which aircraft were "in" or "out". It may do anyway. - Ahunt 15:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
You do make a good point - that aircraft should only be considered to be STOL if they have shorter take-off and landing performance than a comparable aircraft. That is exactly the point of installing a "STOL kit"! Unfortunately we seem to be stuck with the NASA definition or the similar Dictionary of Aeronautical Terms one, both of which makes the category itself rather moot. I think you are suggesting that this article needs a better definition that would be more "exclusive"? - Ahunt 16:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Well I guess we could collect up a list of definitions of STOL that all contradict each other and then the article would cite them all and say that there is no agreement on what STOL means. But that would be the whole article, as you couldn't make any pronouncements as to which aircraft (or airplanes) are included or not. It does all start to form a picture here that this isn't a very useful article. I really don't see a solution here, except to "unwatch" the article! - Ahunt 23:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
A discussion about the future of the aircraft list in this article is going on at WikiProject Aircraft. Any editors watching this article are welcome to join in. - Ahunt ( talk) 19:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
But the link does not have many of the aircraft on this list.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 18:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Really, I have many hours flying C-130's for Uncle Sam and I beg to differ.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 18:53, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Never claimed that, statement is this: any Herc driver worth his salt can do things with one that Lockheed never anticipated. The aircraft is capable of so much more than its "official" designed uses. As you can tell by its multiple variants. And the newer ones even more so as Uncle Sam's official usage parameters are relatively narrow and blithely ignored by the crews.-- Degen Earthfast ( talk) 02:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't helicopters and airships also qualify as STOL? If vertical takeoff is a separate classification then helicopters wouldn't qualify, but still, what about airships? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.9.129 ( talk) 00:11, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
User:WikiFlier removed three definitions (Aeronautical dictionary, Transport Canada/Arizona DOT and Columbia) with the edit summary "Deleted excess definitions". I have restored these. I fail to see how you can arbitrarily remove three well-referenced definitions. If it has no other effect, the deletion makes the article more US-centric. One of the main points of this article is that there is no single accepted definition of STOL - the multiplicity of definitions proves this point. If you want to remove definitions please discuss here and gain consensus first. - Ahunt ( talk) 14:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
STOL. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:47, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Is it "a STOL" or "an EsTeeOhEll"? This is not an idle question, a wikipedian (and anyone) must know the proper article a/an. - Altenmann >talk 22:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)