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Has the city Vladikavkaz been also occupied by the Russian army, does anyone know ? Prunk ( talk) 17:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The war has not only taken place in South Ossetia as the article title currently suggests, but in many other places in Georgia such as Abkhazia, Gori, the Black Sea, Zugdidi and outskirts of Tibilsi, ect. So we need to have another name for this article. Ijanderson ( talk) 18:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/14/AR2008081401611.html?hpid=topnews
From the article: "Russia appears to be withdrawing its forces from positions inside Georgia in initial compliance with a cease-fire agreement"..."Russian forces have practically ceased air operations in Georgia and are cooperating with U.S. military deliveries of humanitarian supplies for Georgia."
If this holds true, then the conflict appears to have ended, and we should edit the infobox accordingly.
Alphabravo11 ( talk) 18:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, we should wait a few additional days before coming to any sort of conclusion, from what i have heard on FNC as soon as that report came out they also reported 100 Russian tanks moving deeper inside Georgia. The only thing we know for certian is the fog of war is extremely heavy in this war- from Georgian irregulars militia units, to Russia saying one thing and doing the opposite. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 13:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the autocomment facility. It discourages editors who arrive here with an idea from looking to see if we've already discussed it, which means we get a half-dozen discussions on the same topic. I don't see why this is a good thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I changed the status in the info box, this war is not "ongoing", its already over, Georgia lost.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 19:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Is that why the Russians sank what was left of the docked Georgian navy just yesterday? As well as starting a brutal occupation of Georgia, letting rebels massager villages in the name of "justice" after feeding them all the propaganda? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 03:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
No, Jade, the rebels didn't give massages to anyone. As far as "massacres", please read and watch and listen to something else then Western media's pro-Georgian propaganda.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 16:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
You misunderstood what i said, i said Russia has blared it's accusations of genocide and 'unspeak-able horrors' by the Georgian army time and time again to the world, its people and the rebel factions. This has been seen as provoking the rebels to do the same to the Georgians- even though the majority of these claims made by the Russians are mostly only announced and defend by the Russians.
I suppose the state-run Russian media is a reliable source to independent journalists then?
There is no mention of OSCE in the article. While we're at it, there's only little and outdated in International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war also. -- Vuo ( talk) 20:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:Geogiacasualities.jpg|thumb|right|A Georgian man cries as he holds the body of his relative after a bombardment in Gori, 80 km (50 miles) from Tbilisi <ref>http://www.javno.com/en/foto.php?id=19&rbr=7941&idrf=381645</ref>]] This photo is faked. Here are the rest of the fake photos:
http://img12.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/1/2/f/8/9/12f89bef0459a49e1d9549a40e6514c4_full.jpg
The man pictured is wearing very clean clothes, and the "corpse" has no apparent damage (maybe the wound is on the back?)
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Same "corpse" turned over. No wound on the back, eh?
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/9/c/e/0/7/9ce078f42e63002a83c19031665beb61_full.jpg
The guy from the first picture is dressed up and ready for a new show
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Check out how the corpse is hanging onto the woman's shoulder! Do all corpses do that?
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I undid my own edit for now. But I still think it's obvious Georgian (Western?) propaganda. Haven't you been reading the news lately? All newspapers in New York, such as Daily News, NY Post and NY Times are spilling georgian propaganda all over, with authors' last names ending in "shvili". -- Mrcatzilla 20:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, would it be good to add to the information warfare section a few sentences about fake images distributed to media? -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Something that might be worth noting is the fact Georgia actually declared war in this case. This needs to be verified with a source, but I believe this might be the first major conflict in years in which an actual declaration by one of the parties has been made. Technically (so I understand but I may be wrong) the US never actually declared war when it went into Iraq, or even when the 1991 Gulf War broke out. The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 2000 were never a declared war. Etc. Again, I may be wrong, but this would make this conflict additionally notable if it is in fact the first outright declared war in recent years. (I'm not counting the War on Terror). 23skidoo ( talk) 20:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Consequences of Russian invasion of Georgia: ABM shield will be placed in Poland.ABM shield treaty will contain statement about American military help in case of invasion by "third party" In previous days Polish officials said Georgian invasion influenced their and American stance on the issue. [5] [6]
-- Molobo ( talk) 20:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The "territorial changes" item in the infobox currently says: Georgia loses control over the ethnically Georgian loyalist territories in Abkhazia and in South Ossetia as the conflict continues. I'm confused as to how the phrase "ethnically Georgian loyalist territories" could properly describe Abkhazia or South Ossetia. I would think it'd be more appropriate to say something like Georgia loses control over the ethnically non-Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Or is the infobox text trying to say something else that I'm not grasping here (such as referring specifically to ethnic Georgian enclaves within the two breakaway regions)? Richwales ( talk) 21:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I just expanded the intro because it was way too small for an article this big and important. My goal was to present the facts as they are. I don't want any "genocide" accusations, none of that "they did this first" or "the sky is falling" statements, just verifiable facts of the conflict and the officially stated reasons that explain it. Here's what I wrote, all of it is basically from the same BBC article, which I think is a somewhat neutral source compared to most:
The 2008 South Ossetia war is a war that began on August 7, 2008, and involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the unrecognised republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The war began after a ceasefire agreement when Georgian forces launched a surprise military attack against the breakaway province of South Osseta, sending a large force and reaching the capital Tskhinvali. The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government said the troops were "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians". Russia responded the next day by pouring troops and armor into South Ossetia, in which the majority of citizens hold Russian passports, driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and taking complete control of the region and its outskirts. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated that their goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace", and that he "must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are".
Any suggestions, POV problems, additions or improvements? Please add them here first and discuss it so we don't get into anymore revert wars. LokiiT ( talk) 21:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
LokiiT, Russian troops, who were and are most certainly a party to the conflict as opposed to "neutral" peacekeepers, were stationed in Tskhinvali and from their base in that city provoked the Georgian side over a long period. Anyone who lives in Gori, a place I've visited, can tell you that few days went by when there wasn't any shelling in the area. Russian provocations were continual. Why no mention of the Russian cyberattacks in July and the violations of Georgian airspace by Russian military aircraft? Why no account of how Russia was destablizing Georgia through the criminal leadership of South Ossetia such that serious economic and political development, the second phase of the Rose Revolution if you will, was impossible without dealing with a problem on its sovereign territory and imposing the rule of law? It's as if it is warmongering to buy heavy weapons for your SWAT teams when the criminals themselves have heavy weapons. You're pushing the Russian line that an aggressive, expansionist Georgia launched an attack from out of the blue sky of peace and harmony in violation of international law. The international consensus is that it is the Russians who are in violation of international law. If you are not going to call it what it is, a Russian invasion, then don't imply that the Georgians started it on August 7, either. Bdell555 ( talk) 22:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The 2008 South Ossetia War
is a war thatbegan on August 7 2008, and involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the unrecognised republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and the breakaway province of South Ossetia broke down, and GeorgiaGeorgian forces launched a surprise military attack against South Ossetia, sendingsent a large military force into South Ossetia which reachedand reachingthe capital Tskhinvali. The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian seperatists.were "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".Russia responded the next day by pouring troops and armor across the Georgian border and into South Ossetia, in which the majority of citizens hold Russian passports, driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and taking complete control of the region and its outskirts. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated that their goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace", and that he "must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are," by which he was referring to the more than 30,000 civilians in South Ossetia who held Russian passports.
Reuters summarizes it as: Moscow attacked Georgia with troops, tanks, planes and warships last week after Tbilisi sent a force into South Ossetia to try to take back control over the province, which threw off Georgian control in a war in the 1990s. source Short, accurate, and to the point. Bdell555 ( talk) 12:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I just reverted an edit by Mrcatzilla concerning the sentence which says, "The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali." I did so because the edit read such that the Georgian troop movement was the event which broke the ceasefire agreement, which is something that Georgia disagrees with (see the following few sentences where Georgia says the troop movement was in response to shelling). Again, however, I'm certain it can be improved, I'm just leery about POV getting back into the introduction after we spent so much work here trying to get it out. croll ( talk) 13:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The 2008 South Ossetia War began on August 7, 2008, and involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the unrecognised republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia which broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s. The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down (each side accuses the other of breaking the ceasefire), and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali. The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian separatists. [1]
Something of the sort. -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 13:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this talk page proves what a joke Wikipedia has become. The POV rule means that any fact someone doesn't like can't be included. Fact is when this 'war' broke out, all the western news agencies were reporting it as 'Georgia invades South Ossetia'. 24 hours later, this changed to "Russia invades Georgia". So those of you wanting to get the truth out should try citing the earliest reports, rather than the later ones, spun ridiculously backwards in such an obvious manner that it'd be ridiculous if it weren't actually happening. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.66.20 ( talk) 22:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
During Georgian attack on Tshinvali 7-8 August, Russian troops were killed (Russian troops were inside Georgia according to 1992 Agreement between Russia and Georgia) this is important to include I think. 86.102.43.111 ( talk) 13:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Such a claim requires a source, so we can see who says so. I looked at the two sources in today's timeline, and I don't see where this comes from. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this comes under the same head as the section above: it's what a Georgian officer (unnamed) said the Russians (I think) would have done. We have enough trouble figuring out what the Russians did. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence below is in the timeline and seems so vague to me. Why did they begin an offensive? The reference mentions nothing about it beginning in the Kodori Valley nor does it mention that the 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians were a part of the retreat? Am I missing something obvious?
"Also on August 9, an offensive was begun by the military of the Republic of Abkhazia in the Kodori Valley, the only region of Abkhazia that was, before the war began, still in effective control of Georgian loyalists. By August 13, all of the remaining Georgian forces, including 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians, in the Kodori Valley had retreated to Georgia proper. [47]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmedinacorona ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It reads somewhat better now. I understood the why of it, it was just that the entry in the article seemed vague for someone coming to read it and having no understanding previously. It just kind of hangs there and I couldn't wrap my mind on how to make it more informative. Thx -- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 16:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am requesting that someone edit the article to include a "US Connections" (or appropriately similar) section to talk about things like how it is being related to the Cold War (Georgia and the Baltic States who have recently openly supported Georgia are former Soviet republics - http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/world/2008/08/13/todd.russian.threat.cnn ) the recent Poland-US defense deal (which has upset Russia - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm).
A good video with some good info: http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/bestoftv/2008/08/08/pilgrim.david.satter.interview.cnn
Danielgleckler ( talk) 23:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I can't fix it cause of the protection, but there's a massive gap where the background is supposed to be. I assume this was an edit gone wrong or something. Andrew's Concience ( talk) 00:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This seems like a variation of a trivia section. A long list of interesting facts but not properly incorporated into the article. I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but the article is getting long and stuff like this really "should" be in the article itself (if it's relevant enough to be so included). croll ( talk) 01:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
AGREE I think the statements should be spun out into the appopriate article because otherwise the article is too long. Bdell555 ( talk) 23:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
See below. There's a huge amount of contention about the content of the article. If the statements section was integrated into the article, everything in it would be lost in a hurry -- with the war raging in the main body of the article, we really ought to preserve a section of primary-source statements, letting the reader see what both sides sound like and judge for him/herself. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 00:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The war is not ongoing, it ended when the ceasefire was signed. This is clearly a Russian victory and there are plenty of sources that describe it as such. Georgians lose the Kodori Gorge previously held by Georgia and the Abkhaz also took a peace of Georgia proper as well. There are many sources that describe Georgia's loses in Abkhazia. What I'm not yet clear about is whether Russia will give back parts of South Ossetia that Georgia had control over prior to the war so I've left it out of territorial changes. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Andrew's Concience ( talk) 02:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Conflict is definitely ongoing--anything else is premature. Publicus 03:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The NYTimes e-story has changed; as best I recall they were more definite about it at 17:30 UTC than they were when they went to press, probably about 02:00, but they don't mention Poti now. I have summarized the print edition, and will return to this tomorrow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's mini Oskar Dirlewanger.
http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=1622 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[11] Detailed map and timeline of Russian air strikes in Georgia. Source: Georgian mInistry of Defense.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
http://monolith.irsrv.ru/war/ http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551 Maybe we could use some of them for the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.17.65 ( talk) 08:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw, RIA Novosti allows us to use its materials (including photos) for free in "public free reference, educational and country-research (страноведческих) resources". Alæxis ¿question? 12:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I asked Arkady Babchenko on the forum personally. Let's wait and see if he grants us permission to use the photos. -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Vostok Battalion article requested. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, there's one already (covering also Zapad). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[12] -- Molobo ( talk) 08:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 09:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[13] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Longer video [14] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[15] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
We have basically four categories of civilians affected by the war (forgetting Abkhazia for the minute):
I think this is four different stories that deserve four sections (or three if Ossetians living in Georgia are not important enough) Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgians living in Georgia proper - they suffer from the bombing" No, they were also forced to flee (most of the refugees!) and their houses are looted and destroyed (like villages around Gori).
You also forgot the Georgians in Abkhazia (upper Kodori/Abkhazian AR), same thing as in SO.
And again, we hould stop pretending it's "South Ossetia war". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
How about a fifth category, Georgians living in Russia - "there are reports that they are harrassed and some" are trying "to take refuge in" Georgia but are being denied exit into Georgia by Russian authorities. Bdell555 ( talk) 10:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
And how about Russians living in Georgia (I mean citizens of Georgia)? They are harassed too. [16]-- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 11:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we need such section? We could use This Times article for the start Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course we should use an outdated article which is contradicting itself!
"Georgia loses the fight with Russia, but manages to win the PR war"
Yes, thank you The Times. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a note for this conversation. Someone has to police name-calling and incivility. Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog and the unsigned person he was fighting with should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Lihaas ( talk) 14:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[18] It seems that Russian Army freely shoots at civilians in Georgia. -- Molobo ( talk) 10:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Мнение о ямадаевцах я изменил. Это не батальон, это семья. Остались только те, кто не ушел к Кадырову. Отношения типа «эй ты, иди сюда» здесь немыслимы. Много молодых. Все воюют великолепно. С одним проговорили полночи. Он рассказал, как забрали в заложники его жену, чтобы он перешел к Кадырову, и как держали в плену его самого. Пытали. Но много и тех, кто воевал в первую Чечню.
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Грузинских пленных никто не бьет, дают воду, еду, бушлаты на ночь. Это обычные мужики, резервисты. Они говорят, что за уклонение от мобилизации дают четыре года тюрьмы. Сдавать их собираются кому угодно, только не осетинам — убьют сразу.
The fact that they (not some abstract "Russia") treat Georgians humanely I would like more credible sources then Russian newspapers. Russia is a the bottom of Free Press index and its media are completely controlled by the authoritarian regime that rules the state(that includes fake opposition parties and publications created to control resistance)-- Molobo ( talk) 13:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC) "In the thick of the battle, I don't beleive the soldiers are ruminating on what exactly their behavior means in the diplomatic gargon" At least here every soldiers needs to learn international law regarding warfare(Geneva Convention and so on). And the Russian soldiers long ago stopped being peacekeppers and became one of the sides, which finally ended in invasion of Georgia(plans of which were revealed month ago).-- Molobo ( talk) 13:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Some of you is citing some facts that make me laugh. A video with Russian soldier with Chechen or Ossetian accent (belive me there is a big difference) trying to shoot a journalist / or media news where Russian troops occupated (!) Vladikavkaz (for those who doesn't know Vladikavkaz is part of Russia). Video and Media sources can be interpreted as you want. So, please turn on your brains before editing! Taamu ( talk) 12:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
What happened is that, after that Turkish TV video, the Russians took them to Vladikavkaz for interrogation, according to the International Press Institute. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The journalists had passed through an unmanned Georgian checkpoint into the South Ossetian capital There they were interrogated for a number of hours by Russian officials, asked to explain why they did not have Russian visas, and warned not to leave their rooms.
So it seems now Russia treats the Georgian territory as part of Russia demanding Russian visas to enter it.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no mentioning in this article, that Georgia starts it massive offence. The article says "ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali." But that doesn't mean, that is is Georgia attacked Osethinans first. Then there is no mentioning also, that Georgians attacked and sieged Russias peacemakers base. We should add them.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 12:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
As South Ossetia is not really where the war is taking place any more, but all over Georgia with the continued Russian attacks would this article be better off being renamed? Something along the lines of "Russian War on Georgia - 2008"? 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 13:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Previously the article (some time yesterday US Time) was stating something like Georgia lost control over the enthicly Georgian portions of South Ossetia and Abzahia[sp?]. Now it's merely stating "cease fire taking place". I think the former is more accurate; it's clear that before the major fighting began that Georgia was in effective control of large parts of South Ossetia and now that they aren't in effective control of any of South Ossetia. And meanwhile there has been quite a bit of dispute over weather or not Russia is actualy taking anything more than a highly literial meaning of cease fire (re: perhaps not firing but still advancing after the cease fire was signed). Jon ( talk) 13:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Not exactly, Carl. There WERE ethnic Georgian enclaves in Ossetia and Abkhazia, but now, most of those people either died or fled to Georgia. War is a terrible thing...-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Please first learn to read before directing others to "check out". And if you don't know such basics about the conflict, what are you doing here in first place? "Anyone can edit", but come on. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm rather disappointed at the allegations and at the words like "couldn't shut up". I've never considered myself a propagandist. I do not see a reason to remain silent then I see that the matieral is being presented with a preferential connotations to either side of the conflict. We should abstain from such things here, and remain neutral. I quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#The_wording_at_the_beginning - propagandist couldn't shut up about the demands of the "mention of the massive artillery-and-rocket shelling leading to the near-almost-destroyed city", "the heavy shelling laid the city in ruins," "the merciless wiping out of a city" and what not. But, not only the damage is limited, not only was inflicted by both sides during a regular battle, but also the rebels seem to be destroying "deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods" of the city right now, during "ceasefire". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for that. Should be rather "these who apparently believe in the propaganda without independent confirmation" or something. The Russian claim about "complete destruction" just turned out to be false/lies (just like the claims of "complete genocide", voiced by the Russian leaders on the highest level - and what it would even mean, that the Georgians just killed all Ossetians in the world overnight?). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This source is full of anti Estonian and anti European propaganda: [20]. I suppose there must me more proof of Estonia's involvement. This is not right to have propaganda sources on wikipedia. It is a violation. Pleckaitis ( talk) 14:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
egarding the allegations published in media, according to which „the Estonian government sent its servicemen to protect Georgia's sovereignty and ensure a Russian troop withdrawal from Georgian territory“, the Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs makes the following statement:
Estonian government has sent neither military units nor servicemen to Georgia to carry out military tasks.
Estonian ambassador to Tbilisi, Mr. Toomas Lukk has spoken with the Georgian deputy Defence Minister, who said that the quotations ascribed to Nino Bakradze, Head of Department of the Georgian Ministry of Defence by the Russian news agency Interfax are not true. -- Molobo ( talk) 14:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I've looked around and found these pages on the Cyberattacks by/on Estonia and Russia. Poland and the Ukraine also offered a 'web-page in exile' ti the Georgian Goverment at one point to.
[ [22]]
[ [23]]
[ [24]]
[ [25]]
[ [26]]
[ [27]]
[ [28]]
[ [29]]
[ [30]]
[ [31]]
[ [32]]
[ [33]]
[ [34]]
[ [35]] -- 86.29.245.87 ( talk) 18:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The Kokoity government stated that they start a war with marauders and looters<:ref name=KokoytyKommersant/>.
This is ungrammatical, unclear, and has lost its source. I suspect that Kokoity is denouncing the Georgians, but since he was declaring this morning that "such things happen in war" when it is his people who are looting, I'm not sure how much weight to put on this. In any case, please clarify before restoring. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29033/video Aedile ( talk) 16:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Gentle reminder, fellas, we should keep conversations limited to the article's content and not turn this into a forum about the relative merits of Russia Today as a reliable source. :-) I'm not sure what the point of posting that link here was, but it doesn't seem like there's any discussion of where (or if) it belongs in the article. Peace. croll ( talk) 17:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we talk about the article please? I don't see "Gori in ruins" in the article. If it were, then if it were cited to a reliable source, it should stay. If another source of comparable reliability says it is NOT "in ruins", then, generally, BOTH allegations go in, acknowledging the dispute, with it being made clear to the reader what the sources are so the reader can draw his or her own conclusion. Bdell555 ( talk) 18:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
It probably is, just like Chechenya was in the mid 1990's. -- 86.29.245.87 ( talk) 18:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
A Russian news agency would be the last thing i would trust for a reliable source- its a state-run agency and i do not think its trust worthy. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 13:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Can't we just call them breakaway Republics like CNN and save a lot of changes between unrecognized/seccesionist/and just regular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.140.56.121 ( talk) 17:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
German source, reporting on casualty counts. S Ossetian authorities report 200 dead, 700 missing; HRW and Russians are apparently aware of 44-60+ in Tskhinvali and counting. Not 2,000, that much seems certain by now.
http://www.n-tv.de/1009353.html
I have changed the "2,000" claim in the infobox, added "initially". For as early as Saturday or perhaps Friday even, Russian sources were talking about "casualties" (dead + wounded), then they dropped the number altogether. Sources ought to be in the text already. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 17:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
why this category? This isn't an article about any "non-combat military operation", let alone one involving the United States. dab (𒁳) 18:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
um, this article mentions some US plane and this is grounds for categorizing it as concerning a US military operation? Hey, the article also mentions Dick Cheney -- how about we place it in Category:Dick Cheney? dab (𒁳) 19:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully Condoleezza Rice didn't pass gas while she was in country or it will be added as U.S. supplies chemical weapons --
Jmedinacorona (
talk) 20:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC) I struck my comment. --
Jmedinacorona (
talk) 23:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
=)))))))))))))))) lol, man, you made me crawl under my table and weep. Just the remark to relax international situation! Well, i've read some article which mentions Cheney, is yours the one, which alleges neo-conservatists conspiracy in US, or something like it? Well, while all of it seems to me somewhat controversial to me, it was written, i recall, by some quite serious russian(?) institute of politics. At least, the war is, indeed, clearly making McCain more popular, as far as i can judge about american politics that is. But aside from that, all of this "Tiger Jump" and "Immediate Responce" stuff looks very shifty to me, and i see no reason, why it shouldn't be included into the article. ETST ( talk) 11:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Potential edit warring in this subsection over the last few days. I believe it is important to delineate between the terms "the foreign media" and "non-regional media" (implied in the source), and am being ignored by editors who twice removed the tag for what is likely a selective interpretation. In this update the Deputy Foreign Minister is quoted as accusing Western media of pro-Georgian bias, in this interview he notes that "Russia has been ... voicing its position not only to leaderships of western countries, but to the western media as well ... for discussing the most acute world order issues." Ottre ( talk) 18:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I leave you all with Orwell’s warning not to dismiss accounts simply because of their source.
“what impressed me then, and has impressed me ever since, is that atrocities are believed in or disbelieved in solely on grounds of political predilection. Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence.” George Orwell http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/lookingback1.htm
Adjpro ( talk) 19:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I forgot this last link on the U.S. role in the conflict, lots of history
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5465
Adjpro ( talk) 20:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The user Ostap R deleted the following paragraph in this section:
It's surprising that this hasn't yet come up, at least in the background section. But there are sources for Kosovo being the an important part to the decision to take this to a larger scale war.
There was something on CNN International by George Friedman of Stratfor talking about Kosovo being a consideration for the moving into S. Ossetia (and Abhkazia). Perhaps there should also be mention of the Russian comments that the two are not likely to ever be part of Georgia again. See the following links for more on this: http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENIN276&q=george+friedman+kosovo+georgia&btnG=Search&meta= http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2008/08/russogeorgian_war_and_balance.html http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENIN276&q=kosovo+georgia&btnG=Search&meta= http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2337
ps- This could be cited too http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7563182.stm Lihaas ( talk) 19:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
UNHCR speaks of more than 118000 refugees. Maybe someone could update this number in the box. -- DanteRay ( talk) 20:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I quote from the Russian version:
Кроме того, Грузия стала резко наращивать вооружения, стараясь вступить в НАТО. Бюджетом Грузии на 2008 год запланированы расходы Министерства обороны, эквивалентные 0,99 млрд долл. США, [2] [3] что составляет более 4,5 % ВВП (оценка по паритету покупательной способности) или около 9 % ВВП (оценка по соотношению курса валют) [4] и более 25 % всех доходов бюджета Грузии на 2008 год. [5]
translated:
Besides, the military budget of Georgia was increased drastically as the country sought to join NATO. The expenses alotted for the Ministry of Defense for the 2008 amounted to 0.99$ bln. [6] [7] This represents more that 4.5% of Georgia's GDP (when calculated using the purchasing power parity) or about 9% of its GDP (based on currency exchange rates) [8] and takes up more that a quarter of all of the profits written in the state budget for the 2008. [9]
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Best regards, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 20:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I went and checked the CIA reference cited for the GDP %, and it says 0.59%! You evidently don't have a cite for either 4.5% or 9%, and calculated it yourself. Please see WP:OR: "if you use it ... to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research" Bdell555 ( talk) 05:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC) See also WP:SYN: Synthesizing material occurs when an editor comes to a conclusion by putting together different sources. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion... then the editor is engaged in original research. The fact you are citing a currency converter site here indicates that this is clear cut case of synthesizing. Bdell555 ( talk) 05:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
“ | The government’s decision encountered almost no resistance in parliament, with opposition deputies only demanding more details on how the massively increased budget - now accounting for six per cent of the country’s GDP and equivalent to spending on social and healthcare programmes - would be spent. | ” |
“ | According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, SIPRI, Georgia currently has the highest average growth rate of military spending in the world. Some independent experts are worried that the spending is not fully accounted for, while others say that it could undermine the peace processes with the breakaway territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. | ” |
Alæxis ¿question? 05:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
As a result of the budgetary amendment, the funding of the Ministry of Defense (MoD) will increase by GEL 295 million to GEL 1.395 billion. The Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA) will also benefit from the planned budgetary amendment as an additional GEL 40 million is earmarked for it. If approved, the amendment will bring the MIA’s total funding for 2008 to GEL 640 million, compared to GEL 467.4 million in 2007. At the same time the amendment envisages spending cuts for a number of ministries.
Let's discuss. I assume such statistics are highly relevant. A little country wouldn't explode its military spending just as a whim, so it shows some interest. " If there's a rifle on the wall at the beginning of the play..". Maybe the "mess of data" could be reworded but the facts speak for themselves, IMHO. I vote to
If you are going to compare Georgia's military spending from year to year, then we should be comparing the size of Georgia's military budget to Russia's. You could take the 2008 number and compare it to another year, and say that's evidence of aggressive intent, and someone else could take the same number, and compare it Russia's, and say that that's evidence not of aggression but of a recognition of a need for defence. What's absurd about this is your argument that Georgia was creating an arms race. You can't have a race when the other guy is already a mile ahead of you. Why does Russia have such a huge military budget compared to Estonia? Is Estonia going to take it over? These are all relevant comparisons if any budget comparisons are in order. I think it would expand the section too much. As it is, this "interests" section just serves to have Wikipedia lay out Russia's various arguments for invasion, without any acknowledgment of what's wrong with those arguments. It's POV enough already. Bdell555 ( talk) 06:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
If you really insist on getting your concern's about Georgia objectives into the article, start by using Alexis' non-OR numbers, above, and then create a stub "western interests" section. In that "western interests" section, it could be explained to readers why western powers think that, for example, the arguments expressed in the "Russian interests" section make for very problematic precedents. Bdell555 ( talk) 06:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
So was Russia, 400,000 conscripted men, 32 billion to 40 billion defense spending- armor division prepared and massed along the Georgian- Russian border.
Sometimes it seems, sources contradicts the article. For example, there was a statement that "on August 13 russians occupied Senaki" with links to New York Times and Anniston Star, none of the articles even mention that city. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 00:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I found this in the "censorship"
"Fox News cut off an American-Ossetia girl, Amanda Kokoeva, after she stated that she was attacked by Georgian Forces and saved by the Russian Troops."
1. If you watch the link, you will find out that not only did she complete what she said- but it rolled for another couple of minuets afterwords.
2. The commercial break was nothing special- it actually seemed to have lasted longer then most small interviews FNC dose- i will guarantee you that whoever posted this doesn't watch FNC, nothing was out of place.
3. This is speculation on my part, but how dose a 12 year old girl tell the difference between two sides who wear the same uniform, who has been in Russia right after they fled- what proof do we have that they aren't being told what happened by the Russian state-run media? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 02:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
under what section? I must have missed it.
Jade Rat ( talk) 02:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
Ah, ok i missed that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
There were allegations in the internet that the Fox News channel cut off an American-Ossetian girl, Amanda Kokoeva, after she stated that she was attacked by Georgian Forces and saved by the Russian Troops, while the people accustomed to Fox programmes said that such commercial cut-offs of are not out of order there. This video also allegedly experienced multiple problems with the counters available on YouTube. The video rating and view count are not being updated and new comments are being deleted.[187]
Yeah, that sounds a lot better- its a lot more neutral i think.
Jade Rat (
talk) 10:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
The time line skips from August 9 to August 11. Important stuff happened on the 10th. Jason3777 ( talk) 03:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Bdell, I don't understand two things: why you're deleting so much material on the the grounds of original research when the sources are listed, and why you're so passionate about the material being deleted. It doesn't seem very important or contentious to me. AzureFury ( talk | contribs) 06:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Sergei Bagapsh claimed the republic spent 25% of its 2006 income on defence. The whole income was 1.1 bln roubles ($ 40 mln approximately) so Abkhazian military expenditures were about $10 mln then.. Alæxis ¿question? 08:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not trying to say that Russian media are unbiased, but look at this brilliant piece of journalism from Fox News: Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia. -- Eraser ( talk) 07:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Myself, and about 12 other have already disputed this. We watch FNC, cutting people off to go to a commercial break is extremaly common- nothing is out of place. This also happened at the end of Studio B they had no choice but to go to a commercial.
Jade Rat ( talk) 09:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9 at the Reference desk. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought Lihaas ( talk) 10:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I visit and see LOTS of discussion lately is about Fox fucking News. Can't you people discuss any reliable sources, instead? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
FNC is one of the most reliable, and the most watched cable news in America- i don't know where you are getting that it's "unreliable" unless your into the conspiracy that its the "Vast right wing propaganda station".
Jade Rat ( talk) 09:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
" * Russian Air Force- retired during the 1990s."
Obviously false, as at laeast one was shot down by Georgians in 2008. In 2007, RIAN also had a story " Russia conducts Tu-22 strategic bomber drills in the south".
Maybe retired and then brought back, as no replacements came?
"Operational history" section should be too updated. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, it's Tupolev Tu-22M. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1. UN refugee agency - 88,000 Georgians Displaced
2. No Signs of Russian Withdrawal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Do not clear it, please, be objective. If it is possible - add it to the page.
The new Internet site Russia-vs-Georgia have been created recently. The main goal of this site is to give all visitors do voting one of the side and comment it . The authors asserts that «Project doesn't support any of the sides. Our aim – together with visitors investigate real situation.» [1]. The abbreviation vs is striked, obviously it is the hint to understanding that «Russia is not versus Georgia». -- Korolev Alexandr ( talk) 11:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The lead section no longer accurately serves as an introduction to the entire article. It seems rather to merely describe the initial days of the conflict. I think it needs to be rewritten so have tagged the article. Perhaps we could discuss on this Talk page and get some consensus first as to what elements ought to be in the lead section. N2e ( talk) 16:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.antiwar.com/regions/regions.php?c=Georgia has good list of article links going way back which is a good chronological overview and has some good reliable sources. Carol Moore 17:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
New report by Human Rights Watch. [37] -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon." This should also be mentioned in the cluster bomb article.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw: bombing of Gori notbale enough, now? (Plus killing of journalists including the Dutch and injuring of the Israeli one and a lot of attention/reports in the media.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
That's all so strange. I'm absolutely sure, that the first time i've heard of cluster bombs, was report in russian media, accusing Georgians of their usage. There was video footage, showing unexploded allegedly western-made bomb found in Tskhinvali right after Russians took it. Wasn't that shown on some western media channel? And i didn't get it from the HRW report, but whether they've seen any evidence to russian cluster bombing, except photos and georgian doctors' statements? Cus, usage of cluster bombs for the purpose of destroying "warplanes producing factory" seems laughable to me - they're designed to take out uncovered people, not factory equipment safely hidden inside buildings. ETST ( talk) 12:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's an interesting video from FOX News: http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3029011&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://search2.foxnews.com/search?access=p&getfields=*&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&filter=0&site=video&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&q=Harrigan Jason3777 ( talk) 01:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It certainly is suspicious, without the rest of the video showing what they saw- when Georgian il-regulars literally aimed at civilians or they where just caught in the cross fire of a raid. Just speculating- but since Gori is undisputed Georgian territory why would Georgians fire on its own people- even if it was under occupation? To my understanding the ethnic tensions are between three+ groups the groups would not fired on its own civilians, so i think this is awfully suspicious.
Jade Rat ( talk) 12:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9 at the Reference desk. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought Lihaas ( talk) 15:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The article at present is 114 KB long. Please keep in mind the average standard article size. While it is generally 32 KB, some featured article in wikipedia are 70 KB long. But more than 100 KB articles should be divided. If necessary, split information from this article to new articles. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 15:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Only the August 12 one (which killed less people, even if a Dutch reporter among them).
[38] [39] Some of the most iconic images of the conflict. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC))
What's your point? what does it have to do with the articlE? Lihaas ( talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=AGfCkPU1-TA
What do you think about this? Are those Russians?
Jade Rat (
talk) 18:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCmfj0uQXs&feature=related
I'm not sure what they are saying, but could someone please translate and confirm what i think this sounds. looks like? I know those are Russians, but what question dose the journalist ask that causes such defensible outrage from the Russian men? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It has a lot to do with the accusations made against South Ossetia, and Russia- Georgia claimed they had been looting in Gori, but Russia denied it and i thought the videos could be investigated into seeing if they where authentic and what side was responsible, weather they are Russians, rebels, or Georgians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 12:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I call for the reversal of this edit which removed information ont he effect of the war on the Greek diaspora living in Georgia, as I cannot see any reason why this information cannot be in the article. I perceive the information as enhancing our encyclopedia. NerdyNSK ( talk) 19:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The Borjomi Gorge, which is important for Georgia's economy, is deliberately set ablaze by Russians according to Georgia. [40]
They are several reports about forced labour being made by Russian forces on Georgian population. Is this a violation of international law regarding treatment of civilians by military ? -- Molobo ( talk) 19:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Convention concerning Forced or Compulsory Labour Of course South Ossetia is not a reckognised country, which is convient as it can claim it has no obligation to the likely unsigned convention. However this won't be an escape-since Russian forces control the region all responsibilty falls on them. Then again-it is a threat to control SO politicians with and keep in line. Usefull and quite well thought over.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
"Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves," said Major General Vyacheslav Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, which is occupied by the Russians.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/15/europe/ethnic.php -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Who let the "Dogs of Wars" free is responsible for all their criminal activities! If Borisov has bad luck he will be in Den Haag sooner or later. In the mean-time regular Russian soldiers can be watched on TV looting villages in central Georgia. Elysander ( talk) 00:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
It's really, really poor. Don't delete it, though. If noone does, I'll rewrite it eventually. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't we need to create a new section about attacks on Press? Above there is a discussion about turkish reporters. Israeli journalist Tzadok Yehezkeli was shot in Gori. It was reported that dutch cameramen was killed (and so it was seen o TV). I have no dutch sources but here are some israelis:
and here are Youtube sources also about Dutch cameramen:
Shmuliko ( talk) 21:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm cleaning up the humanitarian impact section right now, and there was this:
Moved here. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Whoever might be collecting it (and there are MANY attacks on and robberies of the press), "Earlier, a Sky News team was robbed at gunpoint on the outskirts of Gori by men thought to be South Ossetian separatist militia." [3] -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I think wikipedia slowly biasing to Pro-Russian side about conflict as alternative media because they're no mention "or ceased" in article about attacks to reporters and journalists. (And of course there are no info about Russian tanks and solidiers robbery to Turkish Truck Drivers). http://www.taraf.com.tr/haber.asp?id=14681 this Turkish newspaper report robbery against Turkish TIR (Ttuck) drivers Also August 13 and 14 News Bullettins "Channel D-Kanal D", "NTV" and "CNN Turk" Truck Drivers Mentioned They're robbed or wanted bribe by russian soldiers. Ozan, Turkey, 18:20 17 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.176.221 ( talk)
It seems that someone insists on deleting material that might suggest that the piece by Paul Reynolds of the BBC concerning western media bias against Russia is questionable. Although you can click here for a full account of all the problems I see in this BBC story, that's not what I'm adding. Rather, I'm adding "Other western media editors disagreed with this view... with the Washington Post arguing that Moscow was engaging in 'mythmaking'" cited to here. Perhaps the deleter can explain why the BBC's views should be featured in this section and not the view of the Washington Post. Bdell555 ( talk) 21:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the link , 44 captured georgian tanks , the russian army will keep them
http://www.rian.ru/osetia/20080816/150423062.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Should it be incorporated it into the article? Lihaas ( talk) 10:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the extent of this edit by " Captain Obvious". There appear to be several sourced comments that were removed here, without any discussion as far as I'm aware. If Captain Obvious feels these sources are unreliable, I'd like to hear more details. Richwales ( talk) 00:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Compressed:
On August 13-14, already after the official ceasefire, Chicago Tribune,[133] Los Angeles Times,[134] Novye Izvestiya,[135] The Guardian,[136][98] The Independent,[137] The Washington Post,[138] and Sky News,[139] among others, reported Georgian government and refugee stories that Ossetian and sometimes also other pro-Russian irregulars (including reports of Cossack and Chechen paramilitaries) and even some Russian regular soldiers were looting and burning Georgian villages in South Ossetia and near Gori. These reports sometimes also including stories of the other, crimes like kidnapping, rape and indiscriminate murder, and could not be independly confirmed; as BBC News reported on August 14, "The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify."[140]
No need for citations or details of the refugee stories.-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Phew.
I must say: you guys write really badly.
Now, next: "Statements by involved parties" section SHOULD BE INTEGRATED INTO THE ARTICLE (some - the important stuff) OR DELETED (the rest). Do it yourselves. I'm not alone here. (Even if sometimes I think I'm the only one serious. Like right now.)
And, god damn it, put the titles, sources and dates in your sources! -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The ending of this sentence in the curren version of the lead:
The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down (each side accused the other of breaking the ceasefire), and Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force leaving the the capital Tskhinvali largely destroyed.
seems POV in that it calls the city "largely destroyed" while the significant destruction is in the form of "patches", mainly focused on the Ossetian government area. Maybe something like: "... Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force, causing significant destruction to parts of the capital, Tskhinvali." could be a compromise. 132.68.248.44 ( talk) 01:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
More POV: There's 3 images of destoyed buildings in tskinvali now, and only one of gori. One picture of tskinvali should suffice (per wp:undue). Also the descriptions that say "destroyed by Georgian bombardment" should be removed, because according mikhail sakaashvili they were actually hit by russian artillery. We're not allowed to decide whose right. 62.163.232.175 ( talk) 01:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, apart from damages of Tskhinvali, introduction does not mention destruction caused by Russian military attacks of Gori and Poti. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Again and again - the official Russian POV is pushed into the intro. The same paragraph has been made much worse than it was before. Bolded are the most obvious violations of WP:NPOV:
The war involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Irrespective of who was responsible for the break down of ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia, the war began after Georgia unilaterally launched a major military offensive[17] against th republic of South Ossetia with a disproportionately large military force and killed atleast 2000[18] out of the 70,000 South ossetian civilians. In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was heavily damaged. About 24,000 to 30,000 South Ossetians fled into North Ossetia (in Russia)[19] 11,190 of those went back after russian intervention in the war [20]
132.68.72.110 ( talk) 14:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I attempted to edit the Introduction to make it less dubious (as it was marked with that tag). While I edited it, another user also edited it. Those changes are on the front page: "...attack by Georgia into one of two provinces, South Ossetia, which had undertaken two polls in 1992 showing a popular will for independence,[17] The other one, Abkhazia, had declared independence sixteen years ago in 1992.[18] Neither province had found international acceptance." 1. I think this is too much information for the intro to the article. 2. If I understand correctly, Georgia only entered South Ossetia. Does the bit about Abkhazia really belong here? 3. Would it be better to simply state that South Ossetia unsuccesfully declared independence in the early 1990s, rather than having the (in my opinion) slightly unnecessary bit about the 1992 polls? Ridan ( talk) 15:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Author Unknown;
Permission (Reusing this image) Non-commercial use with required attribution; commercial use only with written permission of the author
what
Could anyone screen them on the copyright issues? My spider sense says "speedy deletion". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 01:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Souhtossetia1.jpg was stolen AND miscaptioned (it's AP photo from Gori). [43]
This media file may meet the criteria for speedy deletion.
The given reason is: This image was stolen from http://www.daylife.com/photo/08d3553gUx8AL/Gori and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed."
Can we have a ban for Mr. LokiiT for stealing and lying? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 03:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia ‘seizes US weapons’
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=66770§ionid=351020602 —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
That is far from being honest and fair- it implies that the cargo planes where filled with weapons, not humanitarian aid. In reality we had supplied Georgia with countless arm deals over the years (as well as many other countries), and in all likeliness supplied them with out more effective rifles for Iraqi deployed Georgian units.
We have supplied all NATO members with the M-16 rifle, and i don't think it should come as a surprise that Georgia received shipments. That being said, it is well known that Georgia had m-16s before the conflict began, as well as Israeli weapons, and Russian weapons.
Speculation: Why would we make the situation worse by supplying rifles that would make no real impact on the outcome? Against the overwhelming odds what good would a few rifles do?
The following image which was removed [45] and falsly stated that the destroyed appartment buildng was in Tskhinvali, in fact it was in Gori. This image was stolen from [46] and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed". I want to ask all neutral contributors to PLEASE monitors such gross violation of copyright laws, falsification of the mage description (to make one side more victim while vilifying the other). This is yet another example of how propaganda and falsification of data is carried out by some users on this article due to latest crisis. Please help us to prevent such falsification, lie and provocations on Wiki. Iberieli ( talk) 02:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there should be a separate article on Aid after the 2008 South Ossetia war. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 03:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposed revision and restructuring of timeline. Because the timeline now has a main article link, this one should be highlights of events. There is room for cuts, but my proposed changes emphasize style here. My intention is to keep information the same and only to improve the section’s writing.
Please assume good faith.
There have been changes in this timeline since I began reworking it, so I have not intentionally left out later changes. Feel free to update this proposed revision. I offer them on the discussion page in the spirit of collaboration.
A timeline should be written in the present tense, but I am not personally invested in the tense. A timeline should be written in a clipped style, different from the body of the article. Thus my rewrites usually place the subject and action first. I may have unintentionally changed the meaning and even the dates in an attempt to clarify. For example, “By morning, Georgia announced that it had surrounded the city” – so this would now be the next day, after the start of hostilities, August 8th, right? The UN meeting occurs during the night of the seventh, but after midnight, thus on the 8th. Are we going to use New York or Georgia time? 1:15 a.m. in NYC is (I believe) 10:15 in the morning in Georgia. And another issue for fact checkers, please check that the footnotes remain correct – some started out wrong. There are still contradictions and repetition that needs to be changed. There are important military issues that are left out and others that don’t need to be here.
I have placed my comments in parentheses.
(The first paragraph does not belong here. It belongs in a general introduction to the subject. I suggest removing.)
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that individually declared independence from Georgia and have each been acting in de facto independent capacities since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. Georgia has offered limited autonomy to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but both have declined.
August 1, 2008: intermittent low level conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia escalates. Georgia and South Ossetia trade accusations on ceasefire violations.[49][14]
August 3: South Ossetians (civilians ?) evacuate into Russia. (SOURCE?)
August 5: Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warns that Russia will intervene if conflict erupts.[50][51]
August 7: Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili orders a Georgian ceasefire,[52][53] but fighting intensifies.[54][55] President Saakashvili vows to restore Georgian control over the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and the breakaway territory of Abkhazia.[55] Georgia launches a night offensive against the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.[56] Heavy shelling leaves the city in ruins; Russia characterizes the resulting humanitarian crisis "a genocide by Georgian forces." Russian media extensively covers Georgian shelling.[57][14] Citing reports of up to 2,000 dead in Tskhinvali, Russia military intervenes, maintaining its mission is to defend South Ossetians.[58]
Subsequent reports dispute reported civilian casualties.[59]
(The preceding sentence does not belong here in this timeline, because it refers to later discoveries. I leave it to collective editors to politely exchange commentary over the proper place for the phrase.)
August 8: Georgia announces in the morning that it has surrounded the capital and captured eight South Ossetian villages.[60] An independent Georgian TV station announces that the Georgian military controls the city.[61]
8 a.m. (Georgian time, 11pm U.S. EST) Russia requests a United Nations Security Council meeting; 10:15 (Georgian time, 1:15am US EST), meeting opens, with Georgia attending. Council members cannot reach consensus on a statement calling for an end to hostilities. [62]
(ADD DATE/TIME) Russia troops cross Georgian border, into South Ossetia.
(This section needs specific dates. The previous version – “in five days of fighting” – does not fit with the rest of the day to day timeline, though it may work later in a shorter summary.)
(ADD DATE?) Russian forces capture the regional capital Tskhinvali.
(ADD DATE?) Russian military pushes Georgian troops out of South Ossetia. OR Georgia retreats from its offensive in South Ossetia.[64]
(ADD STARTING DATE?) Russia carries out airstrikes against Georgia’s military infrastructure far beyond disputed territories.[63]
August 9: Russian Navy in the Black Sea sinks Georgian missile boat following a reported attack. Georgian ships retreat. Abkhazian forces open a second front in the Kodori Valley, the only Abkhazian region remaining under Georgian control. [66]
August 10: BIGFOOT FOUND IN CAUCACIAN MOUNTAINS!!! WAR STOPS FOR A DAY!!! NOTHING HAPPENS!!
(Can we fill in this date?)
August 11, Russian paratroopers in Abkhaz attack Georgian military bases, cutting off Georgian troops in South Ossetia from reinforcements. The Russian military maintains they are not part of the Abkhaz assault on the Georgian forces. Russian forces destroy a military base outside Abkhazia near the town of Senaki.[67] The Georgian government reports Russian military action in port of Poti and the town of Gori. Russians shell Gori; deaths include Stan Storimans, a Dutch reporter from the RTL channel. [68]
(The following sentence does not belong here unless it comes from a source.)
Since Gori is along Georgia's main highway, its occupation by Russian forces would cut Georgia's lines of communication and logistics in two.
Most international observers call for a peaceful solution to the conflict.[70] The European Union and the United States propose a joint delegation to negotiate a cease-fire.[71] Russia rules out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdraws from South Ossetia and signs a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[72]
August 12: Russian President Medvedev reports ordering military operations in Georgia to end.[73] Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze maintains that Russian jets continue to target civilians.[74] The British Daily Telegraph journalists report seeing no Russian troops in Gori. [69] Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says “The status quo in South Ossetia and Abkhazia is no longer possible.” [63] Russian president Medvedev approves a six-point peace plan brokered in Moscow by President of the Council of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy.[75] Russian troops surround Georgian port of Poti.[76]
August 13: Russian tanks reported at Gori. Russian troops reported camped on road one hour north of Tbilisi. Georgian troops reported to occupy same road six miles (about 10 km) closer to Tbilisi.[77] All remaining Georgian forces, including at least 1500 civilians from the Kodori Valley, retreat to Georgia proper. [65]
August 14: Russian occupation of Poti reported; Russia denies occupation; New York Times claimed that some Russian statements depend on the "technicalities of the definition of occupation." Russian troops fail in attempt to return Gori Georgian authorities. Attempt to institute joint Georgian and Russian police patrols in Gori breakdown, apparently due to discord among personnel.[78][79]
August 15: President Saakashvili signs the 6-point peace plan in presence of United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.[80][81] Reuters reports that Russian forces advance within 34 miles (55 km) of Tbilisi, the closest yet during the war; they stop in Igoeti. The advancing
Russian convoy includes 17 APCs, 200 soldiers, including snipers, a military ambulance, and initially, three helicopters.[citation needed]
August 16: Guardian and the BBC confirm that the Russians had occupied Poti, as well as military bases in Gori and Senaki, destroying at least six Georgian ships and seizing large amounts of United States-made Georgian weaponry. The general staff in Moscow states, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it." "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."[82][83]
U.S officials report Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov’s pledge to "faithfully" implement the ceasefire agreement. According to a U.S state department official, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned the minister after convincing Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to sign the EU-brokered ceasefire. An official reports that the Russian government had required President Saakashvili sign the agreement first.[84]
(Note: as with other sources, this one does not quite match the text. The widely reported pledge to “faithfully” implement the ceasefire does not appear in this BBC report. I leave it for others to correct, even as I revise the prose.)
Adjpro ( talk) 05:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/pullout/
USA media http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLH49224220080817
British media http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7566199.stm
-- 195.98.173.10 ( talk) 07:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
There are some refutations of this information
Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/nopullout/
-- 195.98.173.10 ( talk) 09:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
We apparently have had serial problems with uploads of non-free images of the war under faked or missing or otherwise dodgy licenses, by multiple accounts.
I'm now instating a zero-tolerance policy for such uploads here. Enough is enough. Please keep in mind that almost every image being taken of this war that turns up on this or that website will be non-free. You can't upload these. Forget it. No matter how badly you want to use them, you just can't.
Any account found uploading Ossetia-related war images with missing or wrong source or licensing information, here or on commons, will be blocked immediately, indef, and without prior warning.
If in doubt about whether an image is okay for upload or not, ask first, upload later.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
More photos:
http://lenta.ru/photo/2008/08/16/calm/
Most of them are Abkhazians and South Ossetians, but there are Russians and Georgians as well. -- 91.77.88.175 ( talk) 10:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Cityvalyu Edits on Aug. 17
I don't want to get caught in an edit war, but the majority of the edits made to the article today by Cityvalyu have so unbalanced it to a pro-russian point of view and seriously calls into question the further neutrality of it. I reverted one edit he/she made taking Georgia's stated reasons for initiating the attack on S.O. out of the Intro. section, and leaving only the reasons stated from Russia. This type of rampant nationalism/bias/vandalism(?) editing needs to stop to preserve the integrity of this article. -- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 12:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The Brigadier was the Senior goverment offical for Georgia in S.O at the time of the attack, as well as, being the person in-charge of the Georgian peacekeeping forces in S.O.. I believe his statement as the commander in the area holds a LOT of weight.-- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 12:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
COMING BACK TO THIS ARTICLE, i find that no edit summary to justify your actions..i didnt own as my edits conform to neutrality clauses of wiki.. see above reply "if you want to add russian peacekeeper statements and south ossetian peacekeeper statements (&all the staements by russian brigadiers in charge of a particular operation), feel free to add (AFTER ADDING similar RUSSIAN AND REPUBLIC OF SOUTH OSSETIA statements for maintaining NEUTRALITY) that PARTICULAR georgian brigadier's opinion too " Cityvalyu ( talk) 13:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Im this edit Cityvalyu introduces claims that Georgia's initial invasion killed 2,000. Apart from also introducing bad POV language, the two external links which are provided to support this are completely spurious in that the first a) is based on a statement by Kokoity, and b) mentions 1,400 at the most (the headline in the reference is false) and the second external link basically doesn't deal with this issue at all. So I made two edits reverting this introduction of very poorly sourced biased material to what I found in an edit several hours ago (which was better still in that it didn't contain the POV term disproportionally). Cityvalyu reverts with the edit summary of "read previous edit summaries to understand why it looks different from 6 hours before..edit summary false?" I do not know what to respond to this as I am unable to see what previous edit summaries Cityvalyu is referring to. __ meco ( talk) 13:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
user:Cityvalyu has recently implemented mass biased changes in the introduction text and he or she seems to have violated Wikipedia's three-reversion limit. The guy should be prevented from polluting the article with pro-Kremlin bias. I would also ask the users who are allowed to edit the article to place the sign that shows that the current text is not neutral and factually accurate.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 13:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
We have a little illegal arms deals scandal brewing. Photos from S Ossetia show Georgian soldiers armed with Heckler & Koch G36 carbines, which have never een allowed fro export. source in Gemrna: here. Might be better in the article about Georgian miliatry, as it only circumstantially pertains to this war in particular. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 13:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The first side to note combatants crossing the border was the North Ossetian volunteers. They said these "volunteers" where going into S. Ossetia. My question is, "Why is this not in the introduction of the article?". These people where armed Russian citizens that lived in Russia. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia did not cross the Russian border. The border between internationally recognised Georgia and Russia was crossed by Russians (illegally) prior to Georgia crossing their provincial border with South Ossetia. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes! Even though the Russian sources are being deleted. (May have to use cache's and archives.) Not according to dated and timed articles. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The source of the "volunteers" entering was South Ossetian. There are numerous sources of them referring to "calling on" and "ready to" of friends and neighbours. Need them? PlanetCeres ( talk) 16:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy Use the title in quotes in Yahoo/Google search if it has been deleted. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC) These troop movements seem to coincide with the evacuation of children. But, that is OR. ;) PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This incursion has ref from both sides and is relevant. PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I understand. But, both sides considered it important. It has equal weight with breakdown of talks and refugees. PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The source of the "volunteers" entering was South Ossetian. There are numerous sources of them referring to "calling on" and "ready to" of friends and neighbours. Need them? PlanetCeres ( talk) 16:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
...that in the South Ossetian War article there is a reference to the fact that
Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website is currently hosted on Estonian server.[180
This is on a server in the US State of Georgia [Atlanta}
It is hosted by a compnay named Tulix {not Tulip...as misreported in some news sources). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.214.205 ( talk) 14:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Has the city Vladikavkaz been also occupied by the Russian army, does anyone know ? Prunk ( talk) 17:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The war has not only taken place in South Ossetia as the article title currently suggests, but in many other places in Georgia such as Abkhazia, Gori, the Black Sea, Zugdidi and outskirts of Tibilsi, ect. So we need to have another name for this article. Ijanderson ( talk) 18:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/14/AR2008081401611.html?hpid=topnews
From the article: "Russia appears to be withdrawing its forces from positions inside Georgia in initial compliance with a cease-fire agreement"..."Russian forces have practically ceased air operations in Georgia and are cooperating with U.S. military deliveries of humanitarian supplies for Georgia."
If this holds true, then the conflict appears to have ended, and we should edit the infobox accordingly.
Alphabravo11 ( talk) 18:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, we should wait a few additional days before coming to any sort of conclusion, from what i have heard on FNC as soon as that report came out they also reported 100 Russian tanks moving deeper inside Georgia. The only thing we know for certian is the fog of war is extremely heavy in this war- from Georgian irregulars militia units, to Russia saying one thing and doing the opposite. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 13:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the autocomment facility. It discourages editors who arrive here with an idea from looking to see if we've already discussed it, which means we get a half-dozen discussions on the same topic. I don't see why this is a good thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I changed the status in the info box, this war is not "ongoing", its already over, Georgia lost.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 19:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Is that why the Russians sank what was left of the docked Georgian navy just yesterday? As well as starting a brutal occupation of Georgia, letting rebels massager villages in the name of "justice" after feeding them all the propaganda? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 03:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
No, Jade, the rebels didn't give massages to anyone. As far as "massacres", please read and watch and listen to something else then Western media's pro-Georgian propaganda.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 16:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
You misunderstood what i said, i said Russia has blared it's accusations of genocide and 'unspeak-able horrors' by the Georgian army time and time again to the world, its people and the rebel factions. This has been seen as provoking the rebels to do the same to the Georgians- even though the majority of these claims made by the Russians are mostly only announced and defend by the Russians.
I suppose the state-run Russian media is a reliable source to independent journalists then?
There is no mention of OSCE in the article. While we're at it, there's only little and outdated in International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war also. -- Vuo ( talk) 20:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:Geogiacasualities.jpg|thumb|right|A Georgian man cries as he holds the body of his relative after a bombardment in Gori, 80 km (50 miles) from Tbilisi <ref>http://www.javno.com/en/foto.php?id=19&rbr=7941&idrf=381645</ref>]] This photo is faked. Here are the rest of the fake photos:
http://img12.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/1/2/f/8/9/12f89bef0459a49e1d9549a40e6514c4_full.jpg
The man pictured is wearing very clean clothes, and the "corpse" has no apparent damage (maybe the wound is on the back?)
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Same "corpse" turned over. No wound on the back, eh?
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/9/c/e/0/7/9ce078f42e63002a83c19031665beb61_full.jpg
The guy from the first picture is dressed up and ready for a new show
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Check out how the corpse is hanging onto the woman's shoulder! Do all corpses do that?
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I undid my own edit for now. But I still think it's obvious Georgian (Western?) propaganda. Haven't you been reading the news lately? All newspapers in New York, such as Daily News, NY Post and NY Times are spilling georgian propaganda all over, with authors' last names ending in "shvili". -- Mrcatzilla 20:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, would it be good to add to the information warfare section a few sentences about fake images distributed to media? -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Something that might be worth noting is the fact Georgia actually declared war in this case. This needs to be verified with a source, but I believe this might be the first major conflict in years in which an actual declaration by one of the parties has been made. Technically (so I understand but I may be wrong) the US never actually declared war when it went into Iraq, or even when the 1991 Gulf War broke out. The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 2000 were never a declared war. Etc. Again, I may be wrong, but this would make this conflict additionally notable if it is in fact the first outright declared war in recent years. (I'm not counting the War on Terror). 23skidoo ( talk) 20:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Consequences of Russian invasion of Georgia: ABM shield will be placed in Poland.ABM shield treaty will contain statement about American military help in case of invasion by "third party" In previous days Polish officials said Georgian invasion influenced their and American stance on the issue. [5] [6]
-- Molobo ( talk) 20:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The "territorial changes" item in the infobox currently says: Georgia loses control over the ethnically Georgian loyalist territories in Abkhazia and in South Ossetia as the conflict continues. I'm confused as to how the phrase "ethnically Georgian loyalist territories" could properly describe Abkhazia or South Ossetia. I would think it'd be more appropriate to say something like Georgia loses control over the ethnically non-Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Or is the infobox text trying to say something else that I'm not grasping here (such as referring specifically to ethnic Georgian enclaves within the two breakaway regions)? Richwales ( talk) 21:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I just expanded the intro because it was way too small for an article this big and important. My goal was to present the facts as they are. I don't want any "genocide" accusations, none of that "they did this first" or "the sky is falling" statements, just verifiable facts of the conflict and the officially stated reasons that explain it. Here's what I wrote, all of it is basically from the same BBC article, which I think is a somewhat neutral source compared to most:
The 2008 South Ossetia war is a war that began on August 7, 2008, and involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the unrecognised republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The war began after a ceasefire agreement when Georgian forces launched a surprise military attack against the breakaway province of South Osseta, sending a large force and reaching the capital Tskhinvali. The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government said the troops were "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians". Russia responded the next day by pouring troops and armor into South Ossetia, in which the majority of citizens hold Russian passports, driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and taking complete control of the region and its outskirts. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated that their goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace", and that he "must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are".
Any suggestions, POV problems, additions or improvements? Please add them here first and discuss it so we don't get into anymore revert wars. LokiiT ( talk) 21:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
LokiiT, Russian troops, who were and are most certainly a party to the conflict as opposed to "neutral" peacekeepers, were stationed in Tskhinvali and from their base in that city provoked the Georgian side over a long period. Anyone who lives in Gori, a place I've visited, can tell you that few days went by when there wasn't any shelling in the area. Russian provocations were continual. Why no mention of the Russian cyberattacks in July and the violations of Georgian airspace by Russian military aircraft? Why no account of how Russia was destablizing Georgia through the criminal leadership of South Ossetia such that serious economic and political development, the second phase of the Rose Revolution if you will, was impossible without dealing with a problem on its sovereign territory and imposing the rule of law? It's as if it is warmongering to buy heavy weapons for your SWAT teams when the criminals themselves have heavy weapons. You're pushing the Russian line that an aggressive, expansionist Georgia launched an attack from out of the blue sky of peace and harmony in violation of international law. The international consensus is that it is the Russians who are in violation of international law. If you are not going to call it what it is, a Russian invasion, then don't imply that the Georgians started it on August 7, either. Bdell555 ( talk) 22:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The 2008 South Ossetia War
is a war thatbegan on August 7 2008, and involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the unrecognised republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and the breakaway province of South Ossetia broke down, and GeorgiaGeorgian forces launched a surprise military attack against South Ossetia, sendingsent a large military force into South Ossetia which reachedand reachingthe capital Tskhinvali. The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian seperatists.were "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".Russia responded the next day by pouring troops and armor across the Georgian border and into South Ossetia, in which the majority of citizens hold Russian passports, driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and taking complete control of the region and its outskirts. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated that their goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace", and that he "must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are," by which he was referring to the more than 30,000 civilians in South Ossetia who held Russian passports.
Reuters summarizes it as: Moscow attacked Georgia with troops, tanks, planes and warships last week after Tbilisi sent a force into South Ossetia to try to take back control over the province, which threw off Georgian control in a war in the 1990s. source Short, accurate, and to the point. Bdell555 ( talk) 12:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I just reverted an edit by Mrcatzilla concerning the sentence which says, "The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali." I did so because the edit read such that the Georgian troop movement was the event which broke the ceasefire agreement, which is something that Georgia disagrees with (see the following few sentences where Georgia says the troop movement was in response to shelling). Again, however, I'm certain it can be improved, I'm just leery about POV getting back into the introduction after we spent so much work here trying to get it out. croll ( talk) 13:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The 2008 South Ossetia War began on August 7, 2008, and involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the unrecognised republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia which broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s. The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down (each side accuses the other of breaking the ceasefire), and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali. The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia said the operation was intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian separatists. [1]
Something of the sort. -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 13:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this talk page proves what a joke Wikipedia has become. The POV rule means that any fact someone doesn't like can't be included. Fact is when this 'war' broke out, all the western news agencies were reporting it as 'Georgia invades South Ossetia'. 24 hours later, this changed to "Russia invades Georgia". So those of you wanting to get the truth out should try citing the earliest reports, rather than the later ones, spun ridiculously backwards in such an obvious manner that it'd be ridiculous if it weren't actually happening. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.66.20 ( talk) 22:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
During Georgian attack on Tshinvali 7-8 August, Russian troops were killed (Russian troops were inside Georgia according to 1992 Agreement between Russia and Georgia) this is important to include I think. 86.102.43.111 ( talk) 13:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Such a claim requires a source, so we can see who says so. I looked at the two sources in today's timeline, and I don't see where this comes from. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this comes under the same head as the section above: it's what a Georgian officer (unnamed) said the Russians (I think) would have done. We have enough trouble figuring out what the Russians did. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence below is in the timeline and seems so vague to me. Why did they begin an offensive? The reference mentions nothing about it beginning in the Kodori Valley nor does it mention that the 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians were a part of the retreat? Am I missing something obvious?
"Also on August 9, an offensive was begun by the military of the Republic of Abkhazia in the Kodori Valley, the only region of Abkhazia that was, before the war began, still in effective control of Georgian loyalists. By August 13, all of the remaining Georgian forces, including 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians, in the Kodori Valley had retreated to Georgia proper. [47]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmedinacorona ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It reads somewhat better now. I understood the why of it, it was just that the entry in the article seemed vague for someone coming to read it and having no understanding previously. It just kind of hangs there and I couldn't wrap my mind on how to make it more informative. Thx -- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 16:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am requesting that someone edit the article to include a "US Connections" (or appropriately similar) section to talk about things like how it is being related to the Cold War (Georgia and the Baltic States who have recently openly supported Georgia are former Soviet republics - http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/world/2008/08/13/todd.russian.threat.cnn ) the recent Poland-US defense deal (which has upset Russia - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm).
A good video with some good info: http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/bestoftv/2008/08/08/pilgrim.david.satter.interview.cnn
Danielgleckler ( talk) 23:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I can't fix it cause of the protection, but there's a massive gap where the background is supposed to be. I assume this was an edit gone wrong or something. Andrew's Concience ( talk) 00:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This seems like a variation of a trivia section. A long list of interesting facts but not properly incorporated into the article. I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but the article is getting long and stuff like this really "should" be in the article itself (if it's relevant enough to be so included). croll ( talk) 01:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
AGREE I think the statements should be spun out into the appopriate article because otherwise the article is too long. Bdell555 ( talk) 23:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
See below. There's a huge amount of contention about the content of the article. If the statements section was integrated into the article, everything in it would be lost in a hurry -- with the war raging in the main body of the article, we really ought to preserve a section of primary-source statements, letting the reader see what both sides sound like and judge for him/herself. ExOttoyuhr ( talk) 00:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The war is not ongoing, it ended when the ceasefire was signed. This is clearly a Russian victory and there are plenty of sources that describe it as such. Georgians lose the Kodori Gorge previously held by Georgia and the Abkhaz also took a peace of Georgia proper as well. There are many sources that describe Georgia's loses in Abkhazia. What I'm not yet clear about is whether Russia will give back parts of South Ossetia that Georgia had control over prior to the war so I've left it out of territorial changes. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Andrew's Concience ( talk) 02:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Conflict is definitely ongoing--anything else is premature. Publicus 03:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The NYTimes e-story has changed; as best I recall they were more definite about it at 17:30 UTC than they were when they went to press, probably about 02:00, but they don't mention Poti now. I have summarized the print edition, and will return to this tomorrow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's mini Oskar Dirlewanger.
http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=1622 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[11] Detailed map and timeline of Russian air strikes in Georgia. Source: Georgian mInistry of Defense.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
http://monolith.irsrv.ru/war/ http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551 Maybe we could use some of them for the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.17.65 ( talk) 08:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw, RIA Novosti allows us to use its materials (including photos) for free in "public free reference, educational and country-research (страноведческих) resources". Alæxis ¿question? 12:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I asked Arkady Babchenko on the forum personally. Let's wait and see if he grants us permission to use the photos. -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Vostok Battalion article requested. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, there's one already (covering also Zapad). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[12] -- Molobo ( talk) 08:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 09:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[13] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Longer video [14] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[15] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
We have basically four categories of civilians affected by the war (forgetting Abkhazia for the minute):
I think this is four different stories that deserve four sections (or three if Ossetians living in Georgia are not important enough) Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgians living in Georgia proper - they suffer from the bombing" No, they were also forced to flee (most of the refugees!) and their houses are looted and destroyed (like villages around Gori).
You also forgot the Georgians in Abkhazia (upper Kodori/Abkhazian AR), same thing as in SO.
And again, we hould stop pretending it's "South Ossetia war". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
How about a fifth category, Georgians living in Russia - "there are reports that they are harrassed and some" are trying "to take refuge in" Georgia but are being denied exit into Georgia by Russian authorities. Bdell555 ( talk) 10:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
And how about Russians living in Georgia (I mean citizens of Georgia)? They are harassed too. [16]-- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 11:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we need such section? We could use This Times article for the start Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course we should use an outdated article which is contradicting itself!
"Georgia loses the fight with Russia, but manages to win the PR war"
Yes, thank you The Times. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a note for this conversation. Someone has to police name-calling and incivility. Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog and the unsigned person he was fighting with should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Lihaas ( talk) 14:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[18] It seems that Russian Army freely shoots at civilians in Georgia. -- Molobo ( talk) 10:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Мнение о ямадаевцах я изменил. Это не батальон, это семья. Остались только те, кто не ушел к Кадырову. Отношения типа «эй ты, иди сюда» здесь немыслимы. Много молодых. Все воюют великолепно. С одним проговорили полночи. Он рассказал, как забрали в заложники его жену, чтобы он перешел к Кадырову, и как держали в плену его самого. Пытали. Но много и тех, кто воевал в первую Чечню.
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Грузинских пленных никто не бьет, дают воду, еду, бушлаты на ночь. Это обычные мужики, резервисты. Они говорят, что за уклонение от мобилизации дают четыре года тюрьмы. Сдавать их собираются кому угодно, только не осетинам — убьют сразу.
The fact that they (not some abstract "Russia") treat Georgians humanely I would like more credible sources then Russian newspapers. Russia is a the bottom of Free Press index and its media are completely controlled by the authoritarian regime that rules the state(that includes fake opposition parties and publications created to control resistance)-- Molobo ( talk) 13:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC) "In the thick of the battle, I don't beleive the soldiers are ruminating on what exactly their behavior means in the diplomatic gargon" At least here every soldiers needs to learn international law regarding warfare(Geneva Convention and so on). And the Russian soldiers long ago stopped being peacekeppers and became one of the sides, which finally ended in invasion of Georgia(plans of which were revealed month ago).-- Molobo ( talk) 13:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Some of you is citing some facts that make me laugh. A video with Russian soldier with Chechen or Ossetian accent (belive me there is a big difference) trying to shoot a journalist / or media news where Russian troops occupated (!) Vladikavkaz (for those who doesn't know Vladikavkaz is part of Russia). Video and Media sources can be interpreted as you want. So, please turn on your brains before editing! Taamu ( talk) 12:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
What happened is that, after that Turkish TV video, the Russians took them to Vladikavkaz for interrogation, according to the International Press Institute. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The journalists had passed through an unmanned Georgian checkpoint into the South Ossetian capital There they were interrogated for a number of hours by Russian officials, asked to explain why they did not have Russian visas, and warned not to leave their rooms.
So it seems now Russia treats the Georgian territory as part of Russia demanding Russian visas to enter it.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no mentioning in this article, that Georgia starts it massive offence. The article says "ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali." But that doesn't mean, that is is Georgia attacked Osethinans first. Then there is no mentioning also, that Georgians attacked and sieged Russias peacemakers base. We should add them.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 12:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
As South Ossetia is not really where the war is taking place any more, but all over Georgia with the continued Russian attacks would this article be better off being renamed? Something along the lines of "Russian War on Georgia - 2008"? 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 13:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Previously the article (some time yesterday US Time) was stating something like Georgia lost control over the enthicly Georgian portions of South Ossetia and Abzahia[sp?]. Now it's merely stating "cease fire taking place". I think the former is more accurate; it's clear that before the major fighting began that Georgia was in effective control of large parts of South Ossetia and now that they aren't in effective control of any of South Ossetia. And meanwhile there has been quite a bit of dispute over weather or not Russia is actualy taking anything more than a highly literial meaning of cease fire (re: perhaps not firing but still advancing after the cease fire was signed). Jon ( talk) 13:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Not exactly, Carl. There WERE ethnic Georgian enclaves in Ossetia and Abkhazia, but now, most of those people either died or fled to Georgia. War is a terrible thing...-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Please first learn to read before directing others to "check out". And if you don't know such basics about the conflict, what are you doing here in first place? "Anyone can edit", but come on. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm rather disappointed at the allegations and at the words like "couldn't shut up". I've never considered myself a propagandist. I do not see a reason to remain silent then I see that the matieral is being presented with a preferential connotations to either side of the conflict. We should abstain from such things here, and remain neutral. I quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#The_wording_at_the_beginning - propagandist couldn't shut up about the demands of the "mention of the massive artillery-and-rocket shelling leading to the near-almost-destroyed city", "the heavy shelling laid the city in ruins," "the merciless wiping out of a city" and what not. But, not only the damage is limited, not only was inflicted by both sides during a regular battle, but also the rebels seem to be destroying "deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods" of the city right now, during "ceasefire". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for that. Should be rather "these who apparently believe in the propaganda without independent confirmation" or something. The Russian claim about "complete destruction" just turned out to be false/lies (just like the claims of "complete genocide", voiced by the Russian leaders on the highest level - and what it would even mean, that the Georgians just killed all Ossetians in the world overnight?). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This source is full of anti Estonian and anti European propaganda: [20]. I suppose there must me more proof of Estonia's involvement. This is not right to have propaganda sources on wikipedia. It is a violation. Pleckaitis ( talk) 14:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
egarding the allegations published in media, according to which „the Estonian government sent its servicemen to protect Georgia's sovereignty and ensure a Russian troop withdrawal from Georgian territory“, the Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs makes the following statement:
Estonian government has sent neither military units nor servicemen to Georgia to carry out military tasks.
Estonian ambassador to Tbilisi, Mr. Toomas Lukk has spoken with the Georgian deputy Defence Minister, who said that the quotations ascribed to Nino Bakradze, Head of Department of the Georgian Ministry of Defence by the Russian news agency Interfax are not true. -- Molobo ( talk) 14:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I've looked around and found these pages on the Cyberattacks by/on Estonia and Russia. Poland and the Ukraine also offered a 'web-page in exile' ti the Georgian Goverment at one point to.
[ [22]]
[ [23]]
[ [24]]
[ [25]]
[ [26]]
[ [27]]
[ [28]]
[ [29]]
[ [30]]
[ [31]]
[ [32]]
[ [33]]
[ [34]]
[ [35]] -- 86.29.245.87 ( talk) 18:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The Kokoity government stated that they start a war with marauders and looters<:ref name=KokoytyKommersant/>.
This is ungrammatical, unclear, and has lost its source. I suspect that Kokoity is denouncing the Georgians, but since he was declaring this morning that "such things happen in war" when it is his people who are looting, I'm not sure how much weight to put on this. In any case, please clarify before restoring. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29033/video Aedile ( talk) 16:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Gentle reminder, fellas, we should keep conversations limited to the article's content and not turn this into a forum about the relative merits of Russia Today as a reliable source. :-) I'm not sure what the point of posting that link here was, but it doesn't seem like there's any discussion of where (or if) it belongs in the article. Peace. croll ( talk) 17:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we talk about the article please? I don't see "Gori in ruins" in the article. If it were, then if it were cited to a reliable source, it should stay. If another source of comparable reliability says it is NOT "in ruins", then, generally, BOTH allegations go in, acknowledging the dispute, with it being made clear to the reader what the sources are so the reader can draw his or her own conclusion. Bdell555 ( talk) 18:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
It probably is, just like Chechenya was in the mid 1990's. -- 86.29.245.87 ( talk) 18:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
A Russian news agency would be the last thing i would trust for a reliable source- its a state-run agency and i do not think its trust worthy. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 13:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Can't we just call them breakaway Republics like CNN and save a lot of changes between unrecognized/seccesionist/and just regular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.140.56.121 ( talk) 17:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
German source, reporting on casualty counts. S Ossetian authorities report 200 dead, 700 missing; HRW and Russians are apparently aware of 44-60+ in Tskhinvali and counting. Not 2,000, that much seems certain by now.
http://www.n-tv.de/1009353.html
I have changed the "2,000" claim in the infobox, added "initially". For as early as Saturday or perhaps Friday even, Russian sources were talking about "casualties" (dead + wounded), then they dropped the number altogether. Sources ought to be in the text already. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 17:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
why this category? This isn't an article about any "non-combat military operation", let alone one involving the United States. dab (𒁳) 18:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
um, this article mentions some US plane and this is grounds for categorizing it as concerning a US military operation? Hey, the article also mentions Dick Cheney -- how about we place it in Category:Dick Cheney? dab (𒁳) 19:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully Condoleezza Rice didn't pass gas while she was in country or it will be added as U.S. supplies chemical weapons --
Jmedinacorona (
talk) 20:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC) I struck my comment. --
Jmedinacorona (
talk) 23:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
=)))))))))))))))) lol, man, you made me crawl under my table and weep. Just the remark to relax international situation! Well, i've read some article which mentions Cheney, is yours the one, which alleges neo-conservatists conspiracy in US, or something like it? Well, while all of it seems to me somewhat controversial to me, it was written, i recall, by some quite serious russian(?) institute of politics. At least, the war is, indeed, clearly making McCain more popular, as far as i can judge about american politics that is. But aside from that, all of this "Tiger Jump" and "Immediate Responce" stuff looks very shifty to me, and i see no reason, why it shouldn't be included into the article. ETST ( talk) 11:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Potential edit warring in this subsection over the last few days. I believe it is important to delineate between the terms "the foreign media" and "non-regional media" (implied in the source), and am being ignored by editors who twice removed the tag for what is likely a selective interpretation. In this update the Deputy Foreign Minister is quoted as accusing Western media of pro-Georgian bias, in this interview he notes that "Russia has been ... voicing its position not only to leaderships of western countries, but to the western media as well ... for discussing the most acute world order issues." Ottre ( talk) 18:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I leave you all with Orwell’s warning not to dismiss accounts simply because of their source.
“what impressed me then, and has impressed me ever since, is that atrocities are believed in or disbelieved in solely on grounds of political predilection. Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence.” George Orwell http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/lookingback1.htm
Adjpro ( talk) 19:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I forgot this last link on the U.S. role in the conflict, lots of history
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5465
Adjpro ( talk) 20:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The user Ostap R deleted the following paragraph in this section:
It's surprising that this hasn't yet come up, at least in the background section. But there are sources for Kosovo being the an important part to the decision to take this to a larger scale war.
There was something on CNN International by George Friedman of Stratfor talking about Kosovo being a consideration for the moving into S. Ossetia (and Abhkazia). Perhaps there should also be mention of the Russian comments that the two are not likely to ever be part of Georgia again. See the following links for more on this: http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENIN276&q=george+friedman+kosovo+georgia&btnG=Search&meta= http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2008/08/russogeorgian_war_and_balance.html http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENIN276&q=kosovo+georgia&btnG=Search&meta= http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2337
ps- This could be cited too http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7563182.stm Lihaas ( talk) 19:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
UNHCR speaks of more than 118000 refugees. Maybe someone could update this number in the box. -- DanteRay ( talk) 20:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I quote from the Russian version:
Кроме того, Грузия стала резко наращивать вооружения, стараясь вступить в НАТО. Бюджетом Грузии на 2008 год запланированы расходы Министерства обороны, эквивалентные 0,99 млрд долл. США, [2] [3] что составляет более 4,5 % ВВП (оценка по паритету покупательной способности) или около 9 % ВВП (оценка по соотношению курса валют) [4] и более 25 % всех доходов бюджета Грузии на 2008 год. [5]
translated:
Besides, the military budget of Georgia was increased drastically as the country sought to join NATO. The expenses alotted for the Ministry of Defense for the 2008 amounted to 0.99$ bln. [6] [7] This represents more that 4.5% of Georgia's GDP (when calculated using the purchasing power parity) or about 9% of its GDP (based on currency exchange rates) [8] and takes up more that a quarter of all of the profits written in the state budget for the 2008. [9]
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Best regards, -- CopperKettle ( talk) 20:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I went and checked the CIA reference cited for the GDP %, and it says 0.59%! You evidently don't have a cite for either 4.5% or 9%, and calculated it yourself. Please see WP:OR: "if you use it ... to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research" Bdell555 ( talk) 05:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC) See also WP:SYN: Synthesizing material occurs when an editor comes to a conclusion by putting together different sources. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion... then the editor is engaged in original research. The fact you are citing a currency converter site here indicates that this is clear cut case of synthesizing. Bdell555 ( talk) 05:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
“ | The government’s decision encountered almost no resistance in parliament, with opposition deputies only demanding more details on how the massively increased budget - now accounting for six per cent of the country’s GDP and equivalent to spending on social and healthcare programmes - would be spent. | ” |
“ | According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, SIPRI, Georgia currently has the highest average growth rate of military spending in the world. Some independent experts are worried that the spending is not fully accounted for, while others say that it could undermine the peace processes with the breakaway territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. | ” |
Alæxis ¿question? 05:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
As a result of the budgetary amendment, the funding of the Ministry of Defense (MoD) will increase by GEL 295 million to GEL 1.395 billion. The Ministry of Internal Affairs (MIA) will also benefit from the planned budgetary amendment as an additional GEL 40 million is earmarked for it. If approved, the amendment will bring the MIA’s total funding for 2008 to GEL 640 million, compared to GEL 467.4 million in 2007. At the same time the amendment envisages spending cuts for a number of ministries.
Let's discuss. I assume such statistics are highly relevant. A little country wouldn't explode its military spending just as a whim, so it shows some interest. " If there's a rifle on the wall at the beginning of the play..". Maybe the "mess of data" could be reworded but the facts speak for themselves, IMHO. I vote to
If you are going to compare Georgia's military spending from year to year, then we should be comparing the size of Georgia's military budget to Russia's. You could take the 2008 number and compare it to another year, and say that's evidence of aggressive intent, and someone else could take the same number, and compare it Russia's, and say that that's evidence not of aggression but of a recognition of a need for defence. What's absurd about this is your argument that Georgia was creating an arms race. You can't have a race when the other guy is already a mile ahead of you. Why does Russia have such a huge military budget compared to Estonia? Is Estonia going to take it over? These are all relevant comparisons if any budget comparisons are in order. I think it would expand the section too much. As it is, this "interests" section just serves to have Wikipedia lay out Russia's various arguments for invasion, without any acknowledgment of what's wrong with those arguments. It's POV enough already. Bdell555 ( talk) 06:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
If you really insist on getting your concern's about Georgia objectives into the article, start by using Alexis' non-OR numbers, above, and then create a stub "western interests" section. In that "western interests" section, it could be explained to readers why western powers think that, for example, the arguments expressed in the "Russian interests" section make for very problematic precedents. Bdell555 ( talk) 06:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
So was Russia, 400,000 conscripted men, 32 billion to 40 billion defense spending- armor division prepared and massed along the Georgian- Russian border.
Sometimes it seems, sources contradicts the article. For example, there was a statement that "on August 13 russians occupied Senaki" with links to New York Times and Anniston Star, none of the articles even mention that city. Garret Beaumain ( talk) 00:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I found this in the "censorship"
"Fox News cut off an American-Ossetia girl, Amanda Kokoeva, after she stated that she was attacked by Georgian Forces and saved by the Russian Troops."
1. If you watch the link, you will find out that not only did she complete what she said- but it rolled for another couple of minuets afterwords.
2. The commercial break was nothing special- it actually seemed to have lasted longer then most small interviews FNC dose- i will guarantee you that whoever posted this doesn't watch FNC, nothing was out of place.
3. This is speculation on my part, but how dose a 12 year old girl tell the difference between two sides who wear the same uniform, who has been in Russia right after they fled- what proof do we have that they aren't being told what happened by the Russian state-run media? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jade Rat (
talk •
contribs) 02:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
under what section? I must have missed it.
Jade Rat ( talk) 02:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
Ah, ok i missed that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
There were allegations in the internet that the Fox News channel cut off an American-Ossetian girl, Amanda Kokoeva, after she stated that she was attacked by Georgian Forces and saved by the Russian Troops, while the people accustomed to Fox programmes said that such commercial cut-offs of are not out of order there. This video also allegedly experienced multiple problems with the counters available on YouTube. The video rating and view count are not being updated and new comments are being deleted.[187]
Yeah, that sounds a lot better- its a lot more neutral i think.
Jade Rat (
talk) 10:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
The time line skips from August 9 to August 11. Important stuff happened on the 10th. Jason3777 ( talk) 03:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Bdell, I don't understand two things: why you're deleting so much material on the the grounds of original research when the sources are listed, and why you're so passionate about the material being deleted. It doesn't seem very important or contentious to me. AzureFury ( talk | contribs) 06:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Sergei Bagapsh claimed the republic spent 25% of its 2006 income on defence. The whole income was 1.1 bln roubles ($ 40 mln approximately) so Abkhazian military expenditures were about $10 mln then.. Alæxis ¿question? 08:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not trying to say that Russian media are unbiased, but look at this brilliant piece of journalism from Fox News: Fox News: 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia. -- Eraser ( talk) 07:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Myself, and about 12 other have already disputed this. We watch FNC, cutting people off to go to a commercial break is extremaly common- nothing is out of place. This also happened at the end of Studio B they had no choice but to go to a commercial.
Jade Rat ( talk) 09:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9 at the Reference desk. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought Lihaas ( talk) 10:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I visit and see LOTS of discussion lately is about Fox fucking News. Can't you people discuss any reliable sources, instead? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
FNC is one of the most reliable, and the most watched cable news in America- i don't know where you are getting that it's "unreliable" unless your into the conspiracy that its the "Vast right wing propaganda station".
Jade Rat ( talk) 09:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
" * Russian Air Force- retired during the 1990s."
Obviously false, as at laeast one was shot down by Georgians in 2008. In 2007, RIAN also had a story " Russia conducts Tu-22 strategic bomber drills in the south".
Maybe retired and then brought back, as no replacements came?
"Operational history" section should be too updated. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, it's Tupolev Tu-22M. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1. UN refugee agency - 88,000 Georgians Displaced
2. No Signs of Russian Withdrawal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Do not clear it, please, be objective. If it is possible - add it to the page.
The new Internet site Russia-vs-Georgia have been created recently. The main goal of this site is to give all visitors do voting one of the side and comment it . The authors asserts that «Project doesn't support any of the sides. Our aim – together with visitors investigate real situation.» [1]. The abbreviation vs is striked, obviously it is the hint to understanding that «Russia is not versus Georgia». -- Korolev Alexandr ( talk) 11:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The lead section no longer accurately serves as an introduction to the entire article. It seems rather to merely describe the initial days of the conflict. I think it needs to be rewritten so have tagged the article. Perhaps we could discuss on this Talk page and get some consensus first as to what elements ought to be in the lead section. N2e ( talk) 16:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.antiwar.com/regions/regions.php?c=Georgia has good list of article links going way back which is a good chronological overview and has some good reliable sources. Carol Moore 17:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Carolmooredc {talk}
New report by Human Rights Watch. [37] -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon." This should also be mentioned in the cluster bomb article.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw: bombing of Gori notbale enough, now? (Plus killing of journalists including the Dutch and injuring of the Israeli one and a lot of attention/reports in the media.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
That's all so strange. I'm absolutely sure, that the first time i've heard of cluster bombs, was report in russian media, accusing Georgians of their usage. There was video footage, showing unexploded allegedly western-made bomb found in Tskhinvali right after Russians took it. Wasn't that shown on some western media channel? And i didn't get it from the HRW report, but whether they've seen any evidence to russian cluster bombing, except photos and georgian doctors' statements? Cus, usage of cluster bombs for the purpose of destroying "warplanes producing factory" seems laughable to me - they're designed to take out uncovered people, not factory equipment safely hidden inside buildings. ETST ( talk) 12:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's an interesting video from FOX News: http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3029011&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://search2.foxnews.com/search?access=p&getfields=*&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&filter=0&site=video&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&q=Harrigan Jason3777 ( talk) 01:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It certainly is suspicious, without the rest of the video showing what they saw- when Georgian il-regulars literally aimed at civilians or they where just caught in the cross fire of a raid. Just speculating- but since Gori is undisputed Georgian territory why would Georgians fire on its own people- even if it was under occupation? To my understanding the ethnic tensions are between three+ groups the groups would not fired on its own civilians, so i think this is awfully suspicious.
Jade Rat ( talk) 12:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 9 at the Reference desk. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought Lihaas ( talk) 15:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The article at present is 114 KB long. Please keep in mind the average standard article size. While it is generally 32 KB, some featured article in wikipedia are 70 KB long. But more than 100 KB articles should be divided. If necessary, split information from this article to new articles. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 15:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Only the August 12 one (which killed less people, even if a Dutch reporter among them).
[38] [39] Some of the most iconic images of the conflict. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC))
What's your point? what does it have to do with the articlE? Lihaas ( talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=AGfCkPU1-TA
What do you think about this? Are those Russians?
Jade Rat (
talk) 18:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCmfj0uQXs&feature=related
I'm not sure what they are saying, but could someone please translate and confirm what i think this sounds. looks like? I know those are Russians, but what question dose the journalist ask that causes such defensible outrage from the Russian men? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It has a lot to do with the accusations made against South Ossetia, and Russia- Georgia claimed they had been looting in Gori, but Russia denied it and i thought the videos could be investigated into seeing if they where authentic and what side was responsible, weather they are Russians, rebels, or Georgians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 12:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I call for the reversal of this edit which removed information ont he effect of the war on the Greek diaspora living in Georgia, as I cannot see any reason why this information cannot be in the article. I perceive the information as enhancing our encyclopedia. NerdyNSK ( talk) 19:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The Borjomi Gorge, which is important for Georgia's economy, is deliberately set ablaze by Russians according to Georgia. [40]
They are several reports about forced labour being made by Russian forces on Georgian population. Is this a violation of international law regarding treatment of civilians by military ? -- Molobo ( talk) 19:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Convention concerning Forced or Compulsory Labour Of course South Ossetia is not a reckognised country, which is convient as it can claim it has no obligation to the likely unsigned convention. However this won't be an escape-since Russian forces control the region all responsibilty falls on them. Then again-it is a threat to control SO politicians with and keep in line. Usefull and quite well thought over.-- Molobo ( talk) 19:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
"Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves," said Major General Vyacheslav Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, which is occupied by the Russians.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/15/europe/ethnic.php -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Who let the "Dogs of Wars" free is responsible for all their criminal activities! If Borisov has bad luck he will be in Den Haag sooner or later. In the mean-time regular Russian soldiers can be watched on TV looting villages in central Georgia. Elysander ( talk) 00:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
It's really, really poor. Don't delete it, though. If noone does, I'll rewrite it eventually. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't we need to create a new section about attacks on Press? Above there is a discussion about turkish reporters. Israeli journalist Tzadok Yehezkeli was shot in Gori. It was reported that dutch cameramen was killed (and so it was seen o TV). I have no dutch sources but here are some israelis:
and here are Youtube sources also about Dutch cameramen:
Shmuliko ( talk) 21:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm cleaning up the humanitarian impact section right now, and there was this:
Moved here. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Whoever might be collecting it (and there are MANY attacks on and robberies of the press), "Earlier, a Sky News team was robbed at gunpoint on the outskirts of Gori by men thought to be South Ossetian separatist militia." [3] -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I think wikipedia slowly biasing to Pro-Russian side about conflict as alternative media because they're no mention "or ceased" in article about attacks to reporters and journalists. (And of course there are no info about Russian tanks and solidiers robbery to Turkish Truck Drivers). http://www.taraf.com.tr/haber.asp?id=14681 this Turkish newspaper report robbery against Turkish TIR (Ttuck) drivers Also August 13 and 14 News Bullettins "Channel D-Kanal D", "NTV" and "CNN Turk" Truck Drivers Mentioned They're robbed or wanted bribe by russian soldiers. Ozan, Turkey, 18:20 17 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.176.221 ( talk)
It seems that someone insists on deleting material that might suggest that the piece by Paul Reynolds of the BBC concerning western media bias against Russia is questionable. Although you can click here for a full account of all the problems I see in this BBC story, that's not what I'm adding. Rather, I'm adding "Other western media editors disagreed with this view... with the Washington Post arguing that Moscow was engaging in 'mythmaking'" cited to here. Perhaps the deleter can explain why the BBC's views should be featured in this section and not the view of the Washington Post. Bdell555 ( talk) 21:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the link , 44 captured georgian tanks , the russian army will keep them
http://www.rian.ru/osetia/20080816/150423062.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW ( talk • contribs) 22:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Should it be incorporated it into the article? Lihaas ( talk) 10:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the extent of this edit by " Captain Obvious". There appear to be several sourced comments that were removed here, without any discussion as far as I'm aware. If Captain Obvious feels these sources are unreliable, I'd like to hear more details. Richwales ( talk) 00:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Compressed:
On August 13-14, already after the official ceasefire, Chicago Tribune,[133] Los Angeles Times,[134] Novye Izvestiya,[135] The Guardian,[136][98] The Independent,[137] The Washington Post,[138] and Sky News,[139] among others, reported Georgian government and refugee stories that Ossetian and sometimes also other pro-Russian irregulars (including reports of Cossack and Chechen paramilitaries) and even some Russian regular soldiers were looting and burning Georgian villages in South Ossetia and near Gori. These reports sometimes also including stories of the other, crimes like kidnapping, rape and indiscriminate murder, and could not be independly confirmed; as BBC News reported on August 14, "The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify."[140]
No need for citations or details of the refugee stories.-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Phew.
I must say: you guys write really badly.
Now, next: "Statements by involved parties" section SHOULD BE INTEGRATED INTO THE ARTICLE (some - the important stuff) OR DELETED (the rest). Do it yourselves. I'm not alone here. (Even if sometimes I think I'm the only one serious. Like right now.)
And, god damn it, put the titles, sources and dates in your sources! -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The ending of this sentence in the curren version of the lead:
The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down (each side accused the other of breaking the ceasefire), and Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force leaving the the capital Tskhinvali largely destroyed.
seems POV in that it calls the city "largely destroyed" while the significant destruction is in the form of "patches", mainly focused on the Ossetian government area. Maybe something like: "... Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force, causing significant destruction to parts of the capital, Tskhinvali." could be a compromise. 132.68.248.44 ( talk) 01:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
More POV: There's 3 images of destoyed buildings in tskinvali now, and only one of gori. One picture of tskinvali should suffice (per wp:undue). Also the descriptions that say "destroyed by Georgian bombardment" should be removed, because according mikhail sakaashvili they were actually hit by russian artillery. We're not allowed to decide whose right. 62.163.232.175 ( talk) 01:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, apart from damages of Tskhinvali, introduction does not mention destruction caused by Russian military attacks of Gori and Poti. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Again and again - the official Russian POV is pushed into the intro. The same paragraph has been made much worse than it was before. Bolded are the most obvious violations of WP:NPOV:
The war involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Irrespective of who was responsible for the break down of ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia, the war began after Georgia unilaterally launched a major military offensive[17] against th republic of South Ossetia with a disproportionately large military force and killed atleast 2000[18] out of the 70,000 South ossetian civilians. In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was heavily damaged. About 24,000 to 30,000 South Ossetians fled into North Ossetia (in Russia)[19] 11,190 of those went back after russian intervention in the war [20]
132.68.72.110 ( talk) 14:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I attempted to edit the Introduction to make it less dubious (as it was marked with that tag). While I edited it, another user also edited it. Those changes are on the front page: "...attack by Georgia into one of two provinces, South Ossetia, which had undertaken two polls in 1992 showing a popular will for independence,[17] The other one, Abkhazia, had declared independence sixteen years ago in 1992.[18] Neither province had found international acceptance." 1. I think this is too much information for the intro to the article. 2. If I understand correctly, Georgia only entered South Ossetia. Does the bit about Abkhazia really belong here? 3. Would it be better to simply state that South Ossetia unsuccesfully declared independence in the early 1990s, rather than having the (in my opinion) slightly unnecessary bit about the 1992 polls? Ridan ( talk) 15:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Author Unknown;
Permission (Reusing this image) Non-commercial use with required attribution; commercial use only with written permission of the author
what
Could anyone screen them on the copyright issues? My spider sense says "speedy deletion". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 01:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Souhtossetia1.jpg was stolen AND miscaptioned (it's AP photo from Gori). [43]
This media file may meet the criteria for speedy deletion.
The given reason is: This image was stolen from http://www.daylife.com/photo/08d3553gUx8AL/Gori and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed."
Can we have a ban for Mr. LokiiT for stealing and lying? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 03:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia ‘seizes US weapons’
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=66770§ionid=351020602 —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
That is far from being honest and fair- it implies that the cargo planes where filled with weapons, not humanitarian aid. In reality we had supplied Georgia with countless arm deals over the years (as well as many other countries), and in all likeliness supplied them with out more effective rifles for Iraqi deployed Georgian units.
We have supplied all NATO members with the M-16 rifle, and i don't think it should come as a surprise that Georgia received shipments. That being said, it is well known that Georgia had m-16s before the conflict began, as well as Israeli weapons, and Russian weapons.
Speculation: Why would we make the situation worse by supplying rifles that would make no real impact on the outcome? Against the overwhelming odds what good would a few rifles do?
The following image which was removed [45] and falsly stated that the destroyed appartment buildng was in Tskhinvali, in fact it was in Gori. This image was stolen from [46] and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed". I want to ask all neutral contributors to PLEASE monitors such gross violation of copyright laws, falsification of the mage description (to make one side more victim while vilifying the other). This is yet another example of how propaganda and falsification of data is carried out by some users on this article due to latest crisis. Please help us to prevent such falsification, lie and provocations on Wiki. Iberieli ( talk) 02:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there should be a separate article on Aid after the 2008 South Ossetia war. Otolemur crassicaudatus ( talk) 03:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposed revision and restructuring of timeline. Because the timeline now has a main article link, this one should be highlights of events. There is room for cuts, but my proposed changes emphasize style here. My intention is to keep information the same and only to improve the section’s writing.
Please assume good faith.
There have been changes in this timeline since I began reworking it, so I have not intentionally left out later changes. Feel free to update this proposed revision. I offer them on the discussion page in the spirit of collaboration.
A timeline should be written in the present tense, but I am not personally invested in the tense. A timeline should be written in a clipped style, different from the body of the article. Thus my rewrites usually place the subject and action first. I may have unintentionally changed the meaning and even the dates in an attempt to clarify. For example, “By morning, Georgia announced that it had surrounded the city” – so this would now be the next day, after the start of hostilities, August 8th, right? The UN meeting occurs during the night of the seventh, but after midnight, thus on the 8th. Are we going to use New York or Georgia time? 1:15 a.m. in NYC is (I believe) 10:15 in the morning in Georgia. And another issue for fact checkers, please check that the footnotes remain correct – some started out wrong. There are still contradictions and repetition that needs to be changed. There are important military issues that are left out and others that don’t need to be here.
I have placed my comments in parentheses.
(The first paragraph does not belong here. It belongs in a general introduction to the subject. I suggest removing.)
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that individually declared independence from Georgia and have each been acting in de facto independent capacities since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. Georgia has offered limited autonomy to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but both have declined.
August 1, 2008: intermittent low level conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia escalates. Georgia and South Ossetia trade accusations on ceasefire violations.[49][14]
August 3: South Ossetians (civilians ?) evacuate into Russia. (SOURCE?)
August 5: Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warns that Russia will intervene if conflict erupts.[50][51]
August 7: Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili orders a Georgian ceasefire,[52][53] but fighting intensifies.[54][55] President Saakashvili vows to restore Georgian control over the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and the breakaway territory of Abkhazia.[55] Georgia launches a night offensive against the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.[56] Heavy shelling leaves the city in ruins; Russia characterizes the resulting humanitarian crisis "a genocide by Georgian forces." Russian media extensively covers Georgian shelling.[57][14] Citing reports of up to 2,000 dead in Tskhinvali, Russia military intervenes, maintaining its mission is to defend South Ossetians.[58]
Subsequent reports dispute reported civilian casualties.[59]
(The preceding sentence does not belong here in this timeline, because it refers to later discoveries. I leave it to collective editors to politely exchange commentary over the proper place for the phrase.)
August 8: Georgia announces in the morning that it has surrounded the capital and captured eight South Ossetian villages.[60] An independent Georgian TV station announces that the Georgian military controls the city.[61]
8 a.m. (Georgian time, 11pm U.S. EST) Russia requests a United Nations Security Council meeting; 10:15 (Georgian time, 1:15am US EST), meeting opens, with Georgia attending. Council members cannot reach consensus on a statement calling for an end to hostilities. [62]
(ADD DATE/TIME) Russia troops cross Georgian border, into South Ossetia.
(This section needs specific dates. The previous version – “in five days of fighting” – does not fit with the rest of the day to day timeline, though it may work later in a shorter summary.)
(ADD DATE?) Russian forces capture the regional capital Tskhinvali.
(ADD DATE?) Russian military pushes Georgian troops out of South Ossetia. OR Georgia retreats from its offensive in South Ossetia.[64]
(ADD STARTING DATE?) Russia carries out airstrikes against Georgia’s military infrastructure far beyond disputed territories.[63]
August 9: Russian Navy in the Black Sea sinks Georgian missile boat following a reported attack. Georgian ships retreat. Abkhazian forces open a second front in the Kodori Valley, the only Abkhazian region remaining under Georgian control. [66]
August 10: BIGFOOT FOUND IN CAUCACIAN MOUNTAINS!!! WAR STOPS FOR A DAY!!! NOTHING HAPPENS!!
(Can we fill in this date?)
August 11, Russian paratroopers in Abkhaz attack Georgian military bases, cutting off Georgian troops in South Ossetia from reinforcements. The Russian military maintains they are not part of the Abkhaz assault on the Georgian forces. Russian forces destroy a military base outside Abkhazia near the town of Senaki.[67] The Georgian government reports Russian military action in port of Poti and the town of Gori. Russians shell Gori; deaths include Stan Storimans, a Dutch reporter from the RTL channel. [68]
(The following sentence does not belong here unless it comes from a source.)
Since Gori is along Georgia's main highway, its occupation by Russian forces would cut Georgia's lines of communication and logistics in two.
Most international observers call for a peaceful solution to the conflict.[70] The European Union and the United States propose a joint delegation to negotiate a cease-fire.[71] Russia rules out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdraws from South Ossetia and signs a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.[72]
August 12: Russian President Medvedev reports ordering military operations in Georgia to end.[73] Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze maintains that Russian jets continue to target civilians.[74] The British Daily Telegraph journalists report seeing no Russian troops in Gori. [69] Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says “The status quo in South Ossetia and Abkhazia is no longer possible.” [63] Russian president Medvedev approves a six-point peace plan brokered in Moscow by President of the Council of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy.[75] Russian troops surround Georgian port of Poti.[76]
August 13: Russian tanks reported at Gori. Russian troops reported camped on road one hour north of Tbilisi. Georgian troops reported to occupy same road six miles (about 10 km) closer to Tbilisi.[77] All remaining Georgian forces, including at least 1500 civilians from the Kodori Valley, retreat to Georgia proper. [65]
August 14: Russian occupation of Poti reported; Russia denies occupation; New York Times claimed that some Russian statements depend on the "technicalities of the definition of occupation." Russian troops fail in attempt to return Gori Georgian authorities. Attempt to institute joint Georgian and Russian police patrols in Gori breakdown, apparently due to discord among personnel.[78][79]
August 15: President Saakashvili signs the 6-point peace plan in presence of United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.[80][81] Reuters reports that Russian forces advance within 34 miles (55 km) of Tbilisi, the closest yet during the war; they stop in Igoeti. The advancing
Russian convoy includes 17 APCs, 200 soldiers, including snipers, a military ambulance, and initially, three helicopters.[citation needed]
August 16: Guardian and the BBC confirm that the Russians had occupied Poti, as well as military bases in Gori and Senaki, destroying at least six Georgian ships and seizing large amounts of United States-made Georgian weaponry. The general staff in Moscow states, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it." "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."[82][83]
U.S officials report Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov’s pledge to "faithfully" implement the ceasefire agreement. According to a U.S state department official, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned the minister after convincing Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to sign the EU-brokered ceasefire. An official reports that the Russian government had required President Saakashvili sign the agreement first.[84]
(Note: as with other sources, this one does not quite match the text. The widely reported pledge to “faithfully” implement the ceasefire does not appear in this BBC report. I leave it for others to correct, even as I revise the prose.)
Adjpro ( talk) 05:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/pullout/
USA media http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLH49224220080817
British media http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7566199.stm
-- 195.98.173.10 ( talk) 07:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
There are some refutations of this information
Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/nopullout/
-- 195.98.173.10 ( talk) 09:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
We apparently have had serial problems with uploads of non-free images of the war under faked or missing or otherwise dodgy licenses, by multiple accounts.
I'm now instating a zero-tolerance policy for such uploads here. Enough is enough. Please keep in mind that almost every image being taken of this war that turns up on this or that website will be non-free. You can't upload these. Forget it. No matter how badly you want to use them, you just can't.
Any account found uploading Ossetia-related war images with missing or wrong source or licensing information, here or on commons, will be blocked immediately, indef, and without prior warning.
If in doubt about whether an image is okay for upload or not, ask first, upload later.
Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
More photos:
http://lenta.ru/photo/2008/08/16/calm/
Most of them are Abkhazians and South Ossetians, but there are Russians and Georgians as well. -- 91.77.88.175 ( talk) 10:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Cityvalyu Edits on Aug. 17
I don't want to get caught in an edit war, but the majority of the edits made to the article today by Cityvalyu have so unbalanced it to a pro-russian point of view and seriously calls into question the further neutrality of it. I reverted one edit he/she made taking Georgia's stated reasons for initiating the attack on S.O. out of the Intro. section, and leaving only the reasons stated from Russia. This type of rampant nationalism/bias/vandalism(?) editing needs to stop to preserve the integrity of this article. -- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 12:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The Brigadier was the Senior goverment offical for Georgia in S.O at the time of the attack, as well as, being the person in-charge of the Georgian peacekeeping forces in S.O.. I believe his statement as the commander in the area holds a LOT of weight.-- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 12:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
COMING BACK TO THIS ARTICLE, i find that no edit summary to justify your actions..i didnt own as my edits conform to neutrality clauses of wiki.. see above reply "if you want to add russian peacekeeper statements and south ossetian peacekeeper statements (&all the staements by russian brigadiers in charge of a particular operation), feel free to add (AFTER ADDING similar RUSSIAN AND REPUBLIC OF SOUTH OSSETIA statements for maintaining NEUTRALITY) that PARTICULAR georgian brigadier's opinion too " Cityvalyu ( talk) 13:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Im this edit Cityvalyu introduces claims that Georgia's initial invasion killed 2,000. Apart from also introducing bad POV language, the two external links which are provided to support this are completely spurious in that the first a) is based on a statement by Kokoity, and b) mentions 1,400 at the most (the headline in the reference is false) and the second external link basically doesn't deal with this issue at all. So I made two edits reverting this introduction of very poorly sourced biased material to what I found in an edit several hours ago (which was better still in that it didn't contain the POV term disproportionally). Cityvalyu reverts with the edit summary of "read previous edit summaries to understand why it looks different from 6 hours before..edit summary false?" I do not know what to respond to this as I am unable to see what previous edit summaries Cityvalyu is referring to. __ meco ( talk) 13:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
user:Cityvalyu has recently implemented mass biased changes in the introduction text and he or she seems to have violated Wikipedia's three-reversion limit. The guy should be prevented from polluting the article with pro-Kremlin bias. I would also ask the users who are allowed to edit the article to place the sign that shows that the current text is not neutral and factually accurate.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 13:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
We have a little illegal arms deals scandal brewing. Photos from S Ossetia show Georgian soldiers armed with Heckler & Koch G36 carbines, which have never een allowed fro export. source in Gemrna: here. Might be better in the article about Georgian miliatry, as it only circumstantially pertains to this war in particular. Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 13:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The first side to note combatants crossing the border was the North Ossetian volunteers. They said these "volunteers" where going into S. Ossetia. My question is, "Why is this not in the introduction of the article?". These people where armed Russian citizens that lived in Russia. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia did not cross the Russian border. The border between internationally recognised Georgia and Russia was crossed by Russians (illegally) prior to Georgia crossing their provincial border with South Ossetia. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes! Even though the Russian sources are being deleted. (May have to use cache's and archives.) Not according to dated and timed articles. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The source of the "volunteers" entering was South Ossetian. There are numerous sources of them referring to "calling on" and "ready to" of friends and neighbours. Need them? PlanetCeres ( talk) 16:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy Use the title in quotes in Yahoo/Google search if it has been deleted. PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC) These troop movements seem to coincide with the evacuation of children. But, that is OR. ;) PlanetCeres ( talk) 13:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This incursion has ref from both sides and is relevant. PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I understand. But, both sides considered it important. It has equal weight with breakdown of talks and refugees. PlanetCeres ( talk) 15:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The source of the "volunteers" entering was South Ossetian. There are numerous sources of them referring to "calling on" and "ready to" of friends and neighbours. Need them? PlanetCeres ( talk) 16:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
...that in the South Ossetian War article there is a reference to the fact that
Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website is currently hosted on Estonian server.[180
This is on a server in the US State of Georgia [Atlanta}
It is hosted by a compnay named Tulix {not Tulip...as misreported in some news sources). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.214.205 ( talk) 14:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)