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There needs to be a sentence in the article clarifying why so many South Ossetians have Russian passports; that this was something that Russia offered to all former Soviet citizens when the USSR collapsed. That the people in territories such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia took up the offer because it provided them social services that the government of Georgia would not give them.
Basically, there needs to be some context here. They weren't all suddenly given passports in the past month.
I'm sure I remember reading some sources about this... Esn ( talk) 05:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[1]Russian troops are handing over control of the area around the town of Gori to Georgian forces, officials say. Who are these "officials" is what I'd like to know. It doesn't look like they're planning on going any further either way, which is good news. LokiiT ( talk) 06:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a point I made yesterday, but it wasn't taken up. In any military history article I ever remember reading on WP or elsewhere, the background comes first, followed by an account of the action, followed if necessary by the aftermath. Why has this convention been reversed here? Putting the "timeline" where it belongs, after the "background" section, wouldn't prevent it being seen or being edited. On the other hand, it would greatly improve the flow of the article. Of course, I could be bold and just do it, but the article is being edited so frequently that it would likely be reverted without explanation if there wasn't a consensus to do it first. So what do people think? Scolaire ( talk) 06:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The reasons are as follows: 1. That picture has been taken in Bosnia, not in South Ossetia. 2. The troops are not in the peacekeeping uniform. This distorts the perception of the Russian peacekeepers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pglukhov ( talk • contribs) 07:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Looks like standard Russian military armor and infantry to me. Just like the Russians who invaded. It should probably stay 70.192.159.112 ( talk) 07:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Its refreshing to see someone who also agrees with me CopperKettle. Clearly the picture does not depict peacekeepers, and the Russian reaction force of the 58th Army were not part of the peacekeeping contigent. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry CopperKettle, forgot to mention that the region currently known as South Ossetia has historically been a part of Georgia since at least the 12th century, inhabited by Georgians. Oh, surprise surprise, so has Abkhazia. If you are going to reference Wiki articles ya might want to check out that section at the bottom: See also See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Our conversation is about Goergia. Ethnic cleansing was first mentioned by the Russian media but has been uncofirmed and the number of dead stated by the Russians as 2000 since the biginning of the conflict is referenced as unfounded in the article. Furthermore Serbians with a UN peacekeeping force displayed an inability to refrain from comitting attrocities. Georgians displayed no such aggression towards Ossetians or Abkhazians after the initial peacekeeping force of Russians and Georgians were set up. Additionally, NO NATION extended citizenship or pensions to Kosovoans while they were a part of Serbia. The US does not recognize the the IRA as a valid political entity, it is a British problem inside of SOVEREIGN BRITISH territory, just as the US did not consider the CHECHEN problem inside SOVERIEGN RUSSIA a US issue. Any more questions 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 08:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Copper Kettle I would ask you to look at a map of Georgia at the time it was included into the Russian empire, circa 1800. This map clearly shows South Ossetia and Abkhazia, including the region up to Sochi as a part of Georgia. You seem like a resourceful fellow, see if you can find it. Not on the internet, try opening a history book in your local library. if you can, try to actually look at it and understand the borders. These are the borders of SOVEREIGN GEORGIA. Russia had a right to protect it's peacekeepers. Russia did not have any foundation to base an invasion of Gerogia on. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 08:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://feefhs.org/maps/ruse/re-cac.html here's a map for you. Look the nuts and butter is Russia has been stirring the nationalist stuff to keep Georgia off-balance. Russia wanted Georgia back to control the North South energy corridor, why do you think Russia is so freindly with Iran? They wan't to transit Iranian oil and gas, and all pipeline based middle eastern oil and gas into europe. My honest opinion, totally POV, is that the conflict started, as we know because of rebel-georgian escalation as a result of rebels shelling Georgian vilages. We do not know who started the shelling. There are unconfirmed reports that after the Georgians took Tskhinvali, they pushed north to seal the Roki gorge only to find the Russians camped out at the entrance to the Ossetian side. Their artillery positions had also been shelling Georgian villages and positions. This explains why Georgia could not seal the roki gorge, a very simple and logical tacitcal move to stop the russians from bringing their main element south. A fierce fight ensued destroying this russian element which slowed the main russian element moving south but did not stop them because of Russian bombing sorties. This allowed Russia to proceed through the Roki gorge and set up in Java, and the Georgians conducted a tactical retreat with ambushes because Tkhinvali is a tactically indefensible position. After puonding the hell out of Tskhinvali the main Russian element poured in, the Georgians were in a bad position outside the city and tactically retreated again to Gori. By this time Putin had returned and someone ordered an escalation. The deciding factor in Tskhinvali was air superiority and Russia had it.
Nil, go edit something. nice talkig to you Copper 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 09:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I have adding an reference on Russian tanks photo taken in Gori. Why it is undo without discussion? Is it because the source is written byin Chinese? The undo seems to be vandalism--
Kittyhawk2 (
talk)
07:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, forget the raped and probably murdered 25 year old innocent civilian. Your ability to properly format sentences in correct English with proper citations are more than enough to reconcile the serious pain and suffering of innocent peoples trapped in a human tragedy. With such excellent grammatical attention there is no need for any humanity. With any luck this thing will blow wide open and we'll have plenty of bloody atrocities to cite just like Darfur or Rawanda or Bosnia or Cambodia or etc., etc. Just be glad you live in a place that gives you that ability. That freedom. 70.192.159.112 ( talk) 07:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC) please excuse oh great master, I forgot to tilde as instructed after my previous post
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jNBg25n8qYjQyiQ-osgnmBJH6xSQ Russians and South Ossetians going house to house and looting, might be worth mentioning, maybe. 70.192.159.112 ( talk) 07:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011311.html Ossetians, Cossacks and Chechens pillaging, might be worth mentioning, maybe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia6 Now Russians and irregulars burning AND looting villages, I don't know if that actually merits mention, but maybe, maybe 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
My bad Big t loki, I only wanted to display that the media we get is isolated to the area in and around South Ossetia. Russia controls most of NW Georgia. So this is not isolated. It concerns me greatly that all the media we get is controlled. again, my bad. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[2]: August 13 timeline - ethnic cleansing; volatile ceasfire; ongoing military occupation.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually I do not see this mentioned in the August 13 timeline. It is referenced in the Aid section, but seeing as this is a new development in the conflict and part of the military operaion, involving Russians and irregulars (S. Ossetians, Cossacks and Chechens) as a military tactic not unlike Russian paratroopers carrying out raids on 11 August or the Abkhaz offensive mentioned on 12 August, it should be placed in the timeline. It is well sourced, citing your link and the previous articles. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 08:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
'Demonstration in Tbilisi for a free and undivided Georgia on August 12 2008.' isn't what i'd call unbiased.
A Georgian version of the Inter Press Service reports that Georgians are tortured and killed in the Russian cities. A mob of young neo-Nazis tortured to death 4 Georgians in Moscow and 17 Georgians were reportedly murdered in St.-Petersburg district. Georgians are also terrorized in Vladikavkaz. Thousands of Georgians are fleeing Russia, but they are not allowed to cross into Georgia and face a humanitarian crisis at the Russian border checkpoints. [3] Once this information becomes available in English, I think it should be included in our Wikipedia article. Thanks, -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 11:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
is a slander. The Russian government has never encouraged racism. Every case of attacks on immigrants has been condemned at a highest level."...attacks on foreigners are encouraged by authorities in Russia"
Condemned, but not punished. The State Duma members overtly participate in ultra-nationalist demonstrations. GRU's ties with militant chauvinist groups are also well known.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
English-language reports plz. (Can't see any, so it's probably just a rumour only.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Where was Mamuka Kurashvili when war has begun? In news showed as it with a column of peacemakers entered in Ossetia, and in this time wounded. Kachalov ( talk) 12:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Reuters. More than 100 Russian vehicles were massed two km (1.5 miles) from the centre of Zugdidi, a major town in western Georgia, a Reuters witness said.
"I counted 104 Russian army vehicles, including 40 armored vehicles, most of which are tanks," Reuters staff photographer Umit Bektas said by telephone from the city.
Bektas said their purpose was unclear.
He said the convoy included weapons such as rocket propelled grenades and was carrying Russian flags. Ongoing still. Ijanderson977 ( talk) 14:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think ...which the Human Rights Watch investigators called "suspicious" and "very doubtful" should be deleted. Anyone can find sources which calls any thing and any event suspicious and doubtful. We need only facts. More than 2,000 people were killed! It's not jokes, it's people's lifes. Shame on you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taamu ( talk • contribs) 14:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The phrasing might be changed, but your assessment that the numbers given by Russian/South Ossetian officials are facts despite being challenged by HRW and other sources is very POV. 132.68.72.110 ( talk) 15:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Would you like the article to include Putin's claims that people were "sawed in pieces"? Bdell555 ( talk) 15:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Help. We need help from other editors to stop a campaign to move, and then reduce or delete the Human Rights Watch reporting in this article. See the diff for an edit summary stating the editor's intent to marginalize the HRW reporting. This is a very serious matter, as once that editor has rearranged this fast-moving page, it will be difficult to evaluate and undo future edits leading to his or her stated goal. - Colfer2 ( talk) 15:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Surely HRW info should be present. For example their reports about the 1992-1993 war in Abkhazia were much more impartial than the majority of Western and Russian sources. Alæxis ¿question? 18:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Should not be italicized. It's a wire service, not a newspaper. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
This section is biased and a violation of WP:UNDUE. Aside from Kremlin and Russia Today allegations, it has links to "Antiwar.com" and to a guy who runs a blog. This view of "media bias" is held by a small minority and does not deserve such a big section. I think it should be removed. Does anyone else agree? Ostap 18:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, moved here:
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin accused foreign media of pro-Georgian bias in their coverage of the ongoing conflict between Georgia and Russia over breakaway South Ossetia. "We want television screens in the West to be showing not only Russian tanks, and texts saying Russia is at war in South Ossetia and with Georgia, but also to be showing the suffering of the Ossetian people, the murdered elderly people and children, the destroyed towns of South Ossetia, and Tskhinvali. This would be an objective way of presenting the material," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said. Current Western media coverage of the events in the separatist republic is "a politically motivated version, to put it mildly," he said. [3]
On August 11, 2008, the government funded Russia Today TV channel accused CNN of presenting video footage made by Russia Today in South Ossetia as pictures of bombed Gori. [4]
Blogger James Poulos at The Guardian remarked that "As Russian columns advance into Georgia proper, columns in the American press fill with dire warnings and withering contempt for anyone so puerile as to ever trust a Russian... The anti-Russia lobby is giving the pro-Israel lobby a run for its money, hyping the settling of scores among two European, Orthodox Christian countries as more dangerous to the peace and security of the west than any clash of civilisations or jihad ever was... The anti-Russian reaction obscures the basic particularity of the Georgian situation, and all the history that informs it." [5]
Justin Raimondo at Antiwar.com, a anti-interventionist advocacy website, stated that "The anti-Russian bias of the Western media is really something to behold: 'Russia Invades Georgia,' 'Russia Attacks Georgia,' and variations thereof have been some of the choice headlines reporting events in the Caucasus, but the reality is not only quite different, but the exact opposite. Sometimes this comes out in the third or fourth paragraph of the reportage, in which it is admitted that the Georgians tried to 'retake' the 'breakaway province' of South Ossetia. The Georgian bombing campaign and the civilian casualties – if they are mentioned at all – are downplayed and presented as subject to dispute." [6]
What? Practically all of Russia's media is much more biased than this section claims the western media to be. This stuff here is only propaganda by Russia Today and RIAN (Russian state agencies) plus some bloggers' claims. --
Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (
talk)
18:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Good catch, too. This article needs a MAJOR cleanup overally. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
And so, it was reinstated again. This is SO STUPID. So we've got:
Yes, it's all MUST-BE MATERIAL IN SERRRRRIOUS ENCYCLOPEDIA (ANYONE CAN EDIT).
People, please keep removing this shit (I can't guard the article, besides there's this 3RR stuff). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Add it? Look at this Associated Press report. Count the number of inconsistencies in Russian communcations that we'd have to add. "Russian at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise", [Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov "denied that Russian troops were anywhere near [Poti]" vs We have seen more and more Russian troops coming into the area all day etc etc. A person could probably fill a page detailing apparent bias in Russian sources. This section needs to go. Bdell555 ( talk) 19:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=231738472&oldid=231738034 - and again reinstated, with the reason "This should stay" (almost as good as "Add it.").
"This should stay" WHY again? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Add it" referred to "the HRW report of village burning campaign which got zero space in the article". - Colfer2 ( talk) 19:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Some mainstream media have questioned the simple vision of the Georgian conflict. Charles King in the Christian Science Monitor: “The emerging narrative, echoing across editorial pages and on television news programs in the US, portrays Georgia as an embattled, pro-Western country struggling to secure its borders against a belligerent Russia…. Russia must be condemned for its unsanctioned intervention. But the war began as an ill-considered move by Georgia to retake South Ossetia by force. Saakashvili's larger goal was to lead his country into war as a form of calculated self-sacrifice, hoping that Russia's predictable overreaction would convince the West of exactly the narrative that many commentators have now taken up.” http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.html
Adjpro ( talk) 19:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Captain and dog, Could you clarify what you think I'm trying too hard to do and what is outdated? In my mind, I am trying to work with people on this list to come up with a good entry. Noting that media may be simplistic does not seem to suggest anything about Georgian genocide. I appreciated your comments asking for entries to be better written, but what you just wrote is too flip and self-involved to be understood.
For some reason, what I wrote in response to Lokiit above did not come through. I rejected LokiiT's use of the word propaganda, because it implied dishonesty -- the article he cited only suggests "PR."
Thank you
Adjpro ( talk) 20:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Human Rights Watch says there is "a massive Russia propaganda machine" at work here. What I don't understand is why editors who apparently consider themselves "left wing" are effectively trying to attack the credibility of human rights groups. Reading HRW's stories on Gitmo, it seemed to me they are more "left" than "right". HRW has advocated for abortion legalisation, gay rights, and the abolition of capital punishment. Can someone explain this apparent contradiction to me? Bdell555 ( talk) 20:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Winners — Vladimir Putin: he made it clear to the world that Georgia had been the aggressor and that his soldiers were intervening to stop “genocide” (...) Losers — Mikhail Saakashvili: the picture of the Georgian President cowering from a Russian helicopter said it all".
Does not compute - "interesting" indeed. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
You miss the point, obviously both Russian and Georgian media are biased, there is no point including claims to that effect, the question is whether outside media is biased.-- Miyokan ( talk) 02:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Four countries (de-facto): Russia, Georgia, Abkhasia and South Ossetia were directly involded in conflict. There is no sense to make any notion about their media bias - their bias is obvious. But the media of other countries (western or not) can be expected to be neutral. So, allegation of their bias is worth to be included. And... western media is considered 'independept' and 'neutral', aren't they?
Now about 'blogger'. The articla is placed at http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/11/georgia.russia1, while I can see separate button for blogs, and address is different and it looks different. Example: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/08/busted_how_america_turned_the.html. Please compare them: unlike previous, the second if clearly visible as blog. So, it looks to me that the text about Ossetia war bias is placed as article, not as blog. This means that notion about it should be restored because article in The Guardian on this topic is surely notable. This should be done because currently it's not neutral: I can see Russian (side of conflict) allegations vs. allegations of HRW (considered as neutral international organisation). Allegation on western bias placed in western media will fix the picture. 79.175.2.54 ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
No one could be treated as neutral instead of asia or africa... West wanted Georgia to enter NATO to do so they need to fulfill NATO restrictions. Country with unclear borders cant enter NATO. It is not an empty words, remember the reaction of Turkey after US officially acknowledge of Armenian Genocide, and remember that Georgia would be a great backup in that region. And US waste a lot of resource to reinforce Georgia army for that purpose. And Georgia fights with American weapons in this conflict! It would be very naive thinking that after that Bush simply agreed with Russian claims and express any discontent about Georgia. So blindly just for bush speech about occupation of Georgian city Poti wouldn't be a rational step. Dprohorova ( talk) 22:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where to put this, but the picture of 'Georgian Rocket Launchers' from Novosty on the front page is almost certainly Russian rocket launchers. It's generally agreed that the Georgian attack on Tskhinvalli occurred at night and by the early morning they were in the city. So why is the picture of the supposed bombardment of Tskhinvali nearer to midday? If the attack was a surprise, its unlikely that Russia photographers would be on hand behind the lines to film Georgian artillery. Moreover, the damage patterns in Tskhinvali as described by Human Rights Watch is not consistant with bombardment from a multiple launch rocket system, but is much more consistant with conventional artillery. If this is Georgian artillery in the photograph, then its almost certainly not firing at Tskhinvalli, and the claim from Russian press that it is makes the whole picture that much more suspect. The AP has shown pictures of Russian armored columns containing large numbers of BM-21 'Grad' launchers (I'm fairly certain this is the type shown in the photo), so we know that the Russia military is using those weapons in theater. Yes, Georgia does have BM-21's in theater and may have even used them at some point and maybe even on Tskhinvalli (I've seen nighttime video footage that is more convincing), but given the origin of the picture it is far more likely to be Russian rockets in the photograph. - Celebrim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.115.19.254 ( talk) 19:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was able to create a scrolling reference box for the reference section. If this causes havoc with your browser please revert the edit. I did this as an attempt to reduce the article display size for better viewing.-- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 06:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
BLASTED USER: I would call this entire thing a fiscal disturbance according to the factors of 'western involvement', today it occured to me, that this was message board particle as well --- saying if the internal-infuriation gets like this it will -- then there was the presidential satire of the number of presidents in russia outnumbering the number of people in georgia all of whcih remember oddly a diff'rent strokes reference, because of this behaviour -- I say let 'em crash... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.238.188 ( talk) 21:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've had it. Someone is repeatedly removing my edits, made in good faith, and is replacing them with poorly written pro-Russian propaganda. I'm no fan of Georgia, but when the only sources in a section are lurid, state-sponsored Russian media tales of Georgian atrocities, the section needs change. I added to the section about humanitarian conditions in South Ossetia the NPOV tag and the Human Rights Watch report discounting the (obviously grossly exaggerated) Russian statistics. The former was removed, the latter watered down and placed at the bottom. What is this?
Regnum, the mouthpiece of the Russian government, is used as a source in a war between Russia and Georgia? Human Rights Watch, an infinitely more credible source, is downplayed and ignored? This was my original paragraph, added below the South Ossetian government casualty figure:
This is the "new and improved" (i.e., vague and badly written) version, conveniently placed at the bottom of the page:
Let's move to the section on Georgia, shall we?
"Ossetian fighters" needs quotation marks while "a Georgian task force entered the city and burned a family alive in their house, and that a column of fleeing refugees was attacked by Georgians" does not? The Times is a perfectly reliable source, and there is no reason to think that the people who were going to kill him (he was saved by his journalist status) were not South Ossetians.
There are no allegations here. It is now a fact, confirmed by many reputable and consistent sources (CNN, the Times, AP, Humans Rights Watch) that the South Ossetians are looting Georgian villages and occasionally burning houses. THESE ARE NOT ASSERTIONS MADE BY THE GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT - THESE ACCOUNTS ARE COLLECTED ON THE GROUND BY INDEPENDENT OBSERVERS.
And now we come to the most delicious part of all this:
In case the reader doesn't understand that these are completely false allegations, that there are quotes around the "disputed allegations" (note the quotes!) is spelled out right before! How convenient! "Ossetian man" - well, I'm sure the Georgians are planting villagers who speak Ossetic in the face of dozens of Russian tanks just to fool Human Rights Watch! And, of course, the claims of the "guardian" (capitalization is so passé!) are "impossible to verify", but those of the Russian media-government are not only fully verifiable but in fact are to be relied upon as central sources! And how! aristotle1990 ( talk) 02:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
as Source 11 supposedly states that Russia has lost; "74 Russian troops killed, 171 wounded and 19 missing in action" but the article has no mention of casualties other then to say that CNN could not verify the conflicting reports on casualties. Please can someone amend this article. This is yet again another example of an edit to Wikipedia which is unsourced which reflects poorly on the Russians ... hardly NPOV is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senor Freebie ( talk • contribs) 05:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
During a visit Tuesday arranged by the Russian government, journalists from The Associated Press and other Western media were escorted into the city aboard armored vehicles.
Reporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.
The heaviest damage from the recent fighting appeared to be around Tskhinvali's government center. More than a dozen buildings in the area were little more than scorched shells.
Several residential areas seemed to have little damage, except for shattered windows, perhaps from bomb concussions.
Russian army agitprop tour backfires, as little-to-no evidence of their wild claims:
Army Col. Igor Kononenko showed off a civilian neighborhood, once part of the old Jewish quarter, that sustained extensive damage. He said that was proof the Georgians targeted civilians.
"This street is very small, tanks can't go through here," he said, arguing there was no military reason for the Georgian military to shell the neighborhood.
However, the district stands on a hillside in the line of fire between Georgian rocket position and Tskhinvali's government center, located around the university. Some civilians in the area conceded Georgian fire at the government building might have fallen short.
At the regional hospital, doctors said the patients were moved to the basement during Georgia's bombardment of the city, and had to do without light, water or toilets. The dungeon-like rooms still stank of sewage Tuesday, while sheets and bandages were stained with blood.Dr. Tina Zhakarova, who said the hospital had treated 224 patients during the fighting, called the Georgian assault on the city an act of ethnic cleansing.
Noting the medical facility had been damaged, she held out a handful of shrapnel to reporters. Doctors can protect people from disease, she said. "How can we protect them against this?"
But from the outside, the hospital appeared to have only light damage, either from bullets or shrapnel. Most of the windows were shattered.
Russian army officers said a Georgian missile pierced the hospital's roof and caused damage not visible on the outside. But they refused to show reporters the destruction, saying it was not safe.
Maybe the best:
Outside town, dozens of houses burned along the main road. A Russian officer said some of the buildings had been burning for days and others were damaged the previous night during an airstrike by a single Georgian plane.
When an AP photographer rode through the same villages Monday morning, none of the houses was burning. The fires only began Monday night, more than 24 hours after the battle for the city was over
Heavy damage in Tskhinvali, mostly at gov't center
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny. Much (much) more damage (UN: "most destroyed city on earth" [5]), many more casualties, much more bigger city too, so I guess you'll be totally outraged. Right?
One sentence also bolded with no comment. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, let's see what the other journalists in the group say about a trip with Colonel Kononenko (btw, the whole story turns out to be just like the fairy tale of "Jeningrad"). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
British The Guardian:
Several truck-mounted rocket launchers were a sign of Moscow's intent to hold Tskhinvali at all costs. Approaching Tskhinvali, the group of reporters was transferred to armoured personnel carriers because of the risk of fire from Georgian snipers, said the Russian officers leading the trip.
In villages close to the city there were many burned out houses, and others were still ablaze. In the city itself it was clear that claims the city had been levelled to the ground by artillery were exaggerated. However, it was also evident that while some neighbourhoods were intact, there were patches of terrible destruction.
Some residential areas were hit during the fighting ("patches" of destruction, including one "whole street of 100 meters" just south of the gvt centre - the same one AP said might be hit by accident because of ground elevation), others not at all ("intact"). In all, Russian claims "clearly exaggerated". Nearby Georgian villages are looted and burning. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
AP Google update of the original AP report also contains this:
An AP photographer saw irregular troops near burning homes in ethnic Georgian villages, and there was evidence of looting in those areas.
At an Ezeit electronics store with smashed windows, a few appliances stood outside, but most of the stock seemed to be gone.
Nearby, a man in dark glasses, camouflage and a Kalashnikov assault rifle drove a tractor hauling what looked like a large refrigerator partly visible under a blanket. A car went down the road with two new satellite dishes on top. [6]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately the Russians aren't letting western journalists into the Gori area (never mind South Ossetia) to see what's been going on there: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia4 Bdell555 ( talk) 11:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, BBC.
As the Russian military moved deeper into Georgian territory on Wednesday, thousands of people continued to flee towards Tbilisi.
It is a mass exodus that Georgia's capital cannot cope with. Many schools and kindergartens across the city are full of displaced people. (...) The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify. But despair and fear is, unmistakably, on the rise here. (...) "The government says only 120 people have been killed, but it is not true," she said.
"In Gori, I saw lorries full of bodies being delivered to the hospital every day. So many people have died, why is the government lying?"
Georgians fear revenge attacks
Saying about the claims of the Georgian government downplaying the real number of the killed Georgians - it probably does, as I already wrote elsewhere (in opposition to the Russian claims of "total genocide" and what not). It may be a lie but a different kind of lie, one not sparking what BBC called "revenge attacks".
Also, there was a discussion ealrier here on talk page about that South Ossetian militiamen should be called "army". It's not an army, an army has a clear chain of command (and accountibility), and they're bands of armed looters who go around in civilian cars and tractors - and doing looting. It's a militia(s) or at best paramilitary, unruly irregulars. It's not army and the "South Ossetian military" may be maybe these 3,000 guys with Russian tanks at the first day of war, and not everyone and his brother handed-out some kind of uniform, dark glasses and a rifle and told to avange "genocide". "Volunteer" is not the right word - US Army is volunteer, that is professional (as opposed to, say, the mostly conscript Russian). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait, I thought our job here is to post facts and not POVaculate prematurely. Captain, I am a supporter of democracy and freedom as well, but you seem to be going overboard, how about you tone down a little? 68.151.34.161 ( talk) 09:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia informed Georgia's Interior Ministry that its troops will remain deployed around the city of Gori, near South Ossetia, for as many as three days, ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said... In Gori, Russian troops are transporting seized Georgian military equipment ( which is supplied by the United States)... [7] 24.0.64.87 ( talk)
True, I agree with the first post as for the second (part), technically accurate however it's obvious that that are looking for anything western and more advanced as history would state the information should acknowledge Russians known history of "acquiring" the West's technologies by what ever means possible, one more report:
As it turns out I was correct:
I'm concerned about adding all of the material in this report because it may increase the amount of material discussing the humanitarian impact to undue weight. Perhaps just the section below, which appears to mention the worst of the problems, and/or select elements from the rest of the report should be incorporated:
.... Russian officers at the checkpoint told Human Rights Watch that the road closure was due to the massive looting taking place in Georgian villages along the road.
However, moving back from Tskhinvali to Java on the evening of August 13, Human Rights Watch researchers saw, for the second day running, houses that were ablaze in several Georgian villages. They had clearly just been torched. One counterintelligence officer of the South Ossetian forces claimed to Human Rights Watch that: “We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.”
The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man... http://www.humanrightswatch.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm Bdell555 ( talk) 12:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital.
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It's best to site sources from both sides. Western related media is biased.
-- What Max —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, Human Rights Watch saw several buildings that bore traces of heavy ammunition as if fired from tanks at close range. There was some evidence of firing being directed into basements, locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter.
One thing:
At a crossroads in the north of the city there was evidence of a fierce fire fight. Three destroyed Georgian tanks were slewed across the road, a mess of ash and twisted metal. The heavy turret of one tank had been tossed across the street, falling through a shop front. Nearby on the ground lay a human foot. (...) "Those tanks in the street, we hit them with rocket propelled grenades from the basement." [10]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 12:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
German TV has a short video clip from behind Russian lines. The German speaking reporter alleges ethnic cleansing. Bdell555 ( talk) 16:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Please note that Captain Obvious is violating Wikipedia Guidelines by deleting messages he doesn't want to see ( 1, 2) and adding clearly provocative comments to them. At the same time he allows himself to write such things as
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny.
I think it's a clear violation of those policies he himself tries to force on others. Moreover, he shows that attitude for quite a time now. Wikipedia is not a forum nor is this a place for people to force their POV. Rules are written for everybody. Please do something about him. -- 78.107.85.14 ( talk) 14:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been much discussion of both sides' justification of their actions, but little as to their reasons for them. I think it would give a greater insight into events if some motivation were suggested. For example, one media outlet suggested that Russia is "building a soviet state".
Has the city Vladikavkaz been also occupied by the Russian army, does anyone know ? Prunk ( talk) 17:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The war has not only taken place in South Ossetia as the article title currently suggests, but in many other places in Georgia such as Abkhazia, Gori, the Black Sea, Zugdidi and outskirts of Tibilsi, ect. So we need to have another name for this article. Ijanderson ( talk) 18:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/14/AR2008081401611.html?hpid=topnews
From the article: "Russia appears to be withdrawing its forces from positions inside Georgia in initial compliance with a cease-fire agreement"..."Russian forces have practically ceased air operations in Georgia and are cooperating with U.S. military deliveries of humanitarian supplies for Georgia."
If this holds true, then the conflict appears to have ended, and we should edit the infobox accordingly.
Alphabravo11 ( talk) 18:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the autocomment facility. It discourages editors who arrive here with an idea from looking to see if we've already discussed it, which means we get a half-dozen discussions on the same topic. I don't see why this is a good thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I changed the status in the info box, this war is not "ongoing", its already over, Georgia lost.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 19:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
::I didnt threaten anyone. just pointed out the truth. A few Estonian punks dont stand a chance against hardened former Soviet VDV Afghan vets.--
SergeiXXX (
talk)
02:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::And YES, the war is still on, technically, as the Russian Army is still there, and is still engaged in a stand off with the gogies. So, yeah, the Westerners are right on this one. Unfortunately.--
SergeiXXX (
talk)
02:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no mention of OSCE in the article. While we're at it, there's only little and outdated in International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war also. -- Vuo ( talk) 20:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:Geogiacasualities.jpg|thumb|right|A Georgian man cries as he holds the body of his relative after a bombardment in Gori, 80 km (50 miles) from Tbilisi <ref>http://www.javno.com/en/foto.php?id=19&rbr=7941&idrf=381645</ref>]] This photo is faked. Here are the rest of the fake photos:
http://img12.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/1/2/f/8/9/12f89bef0459a49e1d9549a40e6514c4_full.jpg
The man pictured is wearing very clean clothes, and the "corpse" has no apparent damage (maybe the wound is on the back?)
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Same "corpse" turned over. No wound on the back, eh?
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/9/c/e/0/7/9ce078f42e63002a83c19031665beb61_full.jpg
The guy from the first picture is dressed up and ready for a new show
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Check out how the corpse is hanging onto the woman's shoulder! Do all corpses do that?
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I undid my own edit for now. But I still think it's obvious Georgian (Western?) propaganda. Haven't you been reading the news lately? All newspapers in New York, such as Daily News, NY Post and NY Times are spilling georgian propaganda all over, with authors' last names ending in "shvili". -- Mrcatzilla 20:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, would it be good to add to the information warfare section a few sentences about fake images distributed to media? -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Something that might be worth noting is the fact Georgia actually declared war in this case. This needs to be verified with a source, but I believe this might be the first major conflict in years in which an actual declaration by one of the parties has been made. Technically (so I understand but I may be wrong) the US never actually declared war when it went into Iraq, or even when the 1991 Gulf War broke out. The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 2000 were never a declared war. Etc. Again, I may be wrong, but this would make this conflict additionally notable if it is in fact the first outright declared war in recent years. (I'm not counting the War on Terror). 23skidoo ( talk) 20:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Consequences of Russian invasion of Georgia: ABM shield will be placed in Poland.ABM shield treaty will contain statement about American military help in case of invasion by "third party" In previous days Polish officials said Georgian invasion influenced their and American stance on the issue. [15] [16]
-- Molobo ( talk) 20:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The "territorial changes" item in the infobox currently says: Georgia loses control over the ethnically Georgian loyalist territories in Abkhazia and in South Ossetia as the conflict continues. I'm confused as to how the phrase "ethnically Georgian loyalist territories" could properly describe Abkhazia or South Ossetia. I would think it'd be more appropriate to say something like Georgia loses control over the ethnically non-Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Or is the infobox text trying to say something else that I'm not grasping here (such as referring specifically to ethnic Georgian enclaves within the two breakaway regions)? Richwales ( talk) 21:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Such a claim requires a source, so we can see who says so. I looked at the two sources in today's timeline, and I don't see where this comes from. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this comes under the same head as the section above: it's what a Georgian officer (unnamed) said the Russians (I think) would have done. We have enough trouble figuring out what the Russians did. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence below is in the timeline and seems so vague to me. Why did they begin an offensive? The reference mentions nothing about it beginning in the Kodori Valley nor does it mention that the 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians were a part of the retreat? Am I missing something obvious?
"Also on August 9, an offensive was begun by the military of the Republic of Abkhazia in the Kodori Valley, the only region of Abkhazia that was, before the war began, still in effective control of Georgian loyalists. By August 13, all of the remaining Georgian forces, including 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians, in the Kodori Valley had retreated to Georgia proper. [47]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmedinacorona ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It reads somewhat better now. I understood the why of it, it was just that the entry in the article seemed vague for someone coming to read it and having no understanding previously. It just kind of hangs there and I couldn't wrap my mind on how to make it more informative. Thx -- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 16:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am requesting that someone edit the article to include a "US Connections" (or appropriately similar) section to talk about things like how it is being related to the Cold War (Georgia and the Baltic States who have recently openly supported Georgia are former Soviet republics - http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/world/2008/08/13/todd.russian.threat.cnn ) the recent Poland-US defense deal (which has upset Russia - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm).
A good video with some good info: http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/bestoftv/2008/08/08/pilgrim.david.satter.interview.cnn
Danielgleckler ( talk) 23:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I can't fix it cause of the protection, but there's a massive gap where the background is supposed to be. I assume this was an edit gone wrong or something. Andrew's Concience ( talk) 00:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The war is not ongoing, it ended when the ceasefire was signed. This is clearly a Russian victory and there are plenty of sources that describe it as such. Georgians lose the Kodori Gorge previously held by Georgia and the Abkhaz also took a peace of Georgia proper as well. There are many sources that describe Georgia's loses in Abkhazia. What I'm not yet clear about is whether Russia will give back parts of South Ossetia that Georgia had control over prior to the war so I've left it out of territorial changes. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Andrew's Concience ( talk) 02:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Conflict is definitely ongoing--anything else is premature. Publicus 03:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The NYTimes e-story has changed; as best I recall they were more definite about it at 17:30 UTC than they were when they went to press, probably about 02:00, but they don't mention Poti now. I have summarized the print edition, and will return to this tomorrow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's mini Oskar Dirlewanger.
http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=1622 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[20] Detailed map and timeline of Russian air strikes in Georgia. Source: Georgian mInistry of Defense.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
New report by Human Rights Watch. [21] -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon." This should also be mentioned in the cluster bomb article.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw: bombing of Gori notbale enough, now? (Plus killing of journalists including the Dutch and injuring of the Israeli one and a lot of attention/reports in the media.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
That's all so strange. I'm absolutely sure, that the first time i've heard of cluster bombs, was report in russian media, accusing Georgians of their usage. There was video footage, showing unexploded allegedly western-made bomb found in Tskhinvali right after Russians took it. Wasn't that shown on some western media channel? And i didn't get it from the HRW report, but whether they've seen any evidence to russian cluster bombing, except photos and georgian doctors' statements? Cus, usage of cluster bombs for the purpose of destroying "warplanes producing factory" seems laughable to me - they're designed to take out uncovered people, not factory equipment safely hidden inside buildings. ETST ( talk) 12:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
http://monolith.irsrv.ru/war/ http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551 Maybe we could use some of them for the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.17.65 ( talk) 08:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw, RIA Novosti allows us to use its materials (including photos) for free in "public free reference, educational and country-research (страноведческих) resources". Alæxis ¿question? 12:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I asked Arkady Babchenko on the forum personally. Let's wait and see if he grants us permission to use the photos. -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Vostok Battalion article requested. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, there's one already (covering also Zapad). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[22] -- Molobo ( talk) 08:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 09:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[23] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Longer video [24] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[25] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
We have basically four categories of civilians affected by the war (forgetting Abkhazia for the minute):
I think this is four different stories that deserve four sections (or three if Ossetians living in Georgia are not important enough) Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgians living in Georgia proper - they suffer from the bombing" No, they were also forced to flee (most of the refugees!) and their houses are looted and destroyed (like villages around Gori).
You also forgot the Georgians in Abkhazia (upper Kodori/Abkhazian AR), same thing as in SO.
And again, we hould stop pretending it's "South Ossetia war". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
How about a fifth category, Georgians living in Russia - "there are reports that they are harrassed and some" are trying "to take refuge in" Georgia but are being denied exit into Georgia by Russian authorities. Bdell555 ( talk) 10:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
And how about Russians living in Georgia (I mean citizens of Georgia)? They are harassed too. [26]-- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 11:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we need such section? We could use This Times article for the start Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course we should use an outdated article which is contradicting itself!
"Georgia loses the fight with Russia, but manages to win the PR war"
Yes, thank you The Times. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a note for this conversation. Someone has to police name-calling and incivility. Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog and the unsigned person he was fighting with should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Lihaas ( talk) 14:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[28] It seems that Russian Army freely shoots at civilians in Georgia. -- Molobo ( talk) 10:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Мнение о ямадаевцах я изменил. Это не батальон, это семья. Остались только те, кто не ушел к Кадырову. Отношения типа «эй ты, иди сюда» здесь немыслимы. Много молодых. Все воюют великолепно. С одним проговорили полночи. Он рассказал, как забрали в заложники его жену, чтобы он перешел к Кадырову, и как держали в плену его самого. Пытали. Но много и тех, кто воевал в первую Чечню.
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Грузинских пленных никто не бьет, дают воду, еду, бушлаты на ночь. Это обычные мужики, резервисты. Они говорят, что за уклонение от мобилизации дают четыре года тюрьмы. Сдавать их собираются кому угодно, только не осетинам — убьют сразу.
The fact that they (not some abstract "Russia") treat Georgians humanely I would like more credible sources then Russian newspapers. Russia is a the bottom of Free Press index and its media are completely controlled by the authoritarian regime that rules the state(that includes fake opposition parties and publications created to control resistance)-- Molobo ( talk) 13:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC) "In the thick of the battle, I don't beleive the soldiers are ruminating on what exactly their behavior means in the diplomatic gargon" At least here every soldiers needs to learn international law regarding warfare(Geneva Convention and so on). And the Russian soldiers long ago stopped being peacekeppers and became one of the sides, which finally ended in invasion of Georgia(plans of which were revealed month ago).-- Molobo ( talk) 13:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Some of you is citing some facts that make me laugh. A video with Russian soldier with Chechen or Ossetian accent (belive me there is a big difference) trying to shoot a journalist / or media news where Russian troops occupated (!) Vladikavkaz (for those who doesn't know Vladikavkaz is part of Russia). Video and Media sources can be interpreted as you want. So, please turn on your brains before editing! Taamu ( talk) 12:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
What happened is that, after that Turkish TV video, the Russians took them to Vladikavkaz for interrogation, according to the International Press Institute. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The journalists had passed through an unmanned Georgian checkpoint into the South Ossetian capital There they were interrogated for a number of hours by Russian officials, asked to explain why they did not have Russian visas, and warned not to leave their rooms.
So it seems now Russia treats the Georgian territory as part of Russia demanding Russian visas to enter it.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no mentioning in this article, that Georgia starts it massive offence. The article says "ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali." But that doesn't mean, that is is Georgia attacked Osethinans first. Then there is no mentioning also, that Georgians attacked and sieged Russias peacemakers base. We should add them.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 12:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
As South Ossetia is not really where the war is taking place any more, but all over Georgia with the continued Russian attacks would this article be better off being renamed? Something along the lines of "Russian War on Georgia - 2008"? 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 13:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Previously the article (some time yesterday US Time) was stating something like Georgia lost control over the enthicly Georgian portions of South Ossetia and Abzahia[sp?]. Now it's merely stating "cease fire taking place". I think the former is more accurate; it's clear that before the major fighting began that Georgia was in effective control of large parts of South Ossetia and now that they aren't in effective control of any of South Ossetia. And meanwhile there has been quite a bit of dispute over weather or not Russia is actualy taking anything more than a highly literial meaning of cease fire (re: perhaps not firing but still advancing after the cease fire was signed). Jon ( talk) 13:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Not exactly, Carl. There WERE ethnic Georgian enclaves in Ossetia and Abkhazia, but now, most of those people either died or fled to Georgia. War is a terrible thing...-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Please first learn to read before directing others to "check out". And if you don't know such basics about the conflict, what are you doing here in first place? "Anyone can edit", but come on. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm rather disappointed at the allegations and at the words like "couldn't shut up". I've never considered myself a propagandist. I do not see a reason to remain silent then I see that the matieral is being presented with a preferential connotations to either side of the conflict. We should abstain from such things here, and remain neutral. I quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#The_wording_at_the_beginning - propagandist couldn't shut up about the demands of the "mention of the massive artillery-and-rocket shelling leading to the near-almost-destroyed city", "the heavy shelling laid the city in ruins," "the merciless wiping out of a city" and what not. But, not only the damage is limited, not only was inflicted by both sides during a regular battle, but also the rebels seem to be destroying "deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods" of the city right now, during "ceasefire". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for that. Should be rather "these who apparently believe in the propaganda without independent confirmation" or something. The Russian claim about "complete destruction" just turned out to be false/lies (just like the claims of "complete genocide", voiced by the Russian leaders on the highest level - and what it would even mean, that the Georgians just killed all Ossetians in the world overnight?). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The Kokoity government stated that they start a war with marauders and looters<:ref name=KokoytyKommersant/>.
This is ungrammatical, unclear, and has lost its source. I suspect that Kokoity is denouncing the Georgians, but since he was declaring this morning that "such things happen in war" when it is his people who are looting, I'm not sure how much weight to put on this. In any case, please clarify before restoring. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Can't we just call them breakaway Republics like CNN and save a lot of changes between unrecognized/seccesionist/and just regular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.140.56.121 ( talk) 17:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian and Ossetian troops opened fire on journalists on Thursday, excusing themselves by saying they did not know there were journalists in the car. [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35]
I think the article should mention this issue. Qubix 82.208.174.72 ( talk) 19:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This section is biased and a violation of WP:UNDUE. Aside from Kremlin and Russia Today allegations, it has links to "Antiwar.com" and to a guy who runs a blog. This view of "media bias" is held by a small minority and does not deserve such a big section. I think it should be removed. Does anyone else agree? Ostap 18:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, moved here:
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin accused foreign media of pro-Georgian bias in their coverage of the ongoing conflict between Georgia and Russia over breakaway South Ossetia. "We want television screens in the West to be showing not only Russian tanks, and texts saying Russia is at war in South Ossetia and with Georgia, but also to be showing the suffering of the Ossetian people, the murdered elderly people and children, the destroyed towns of South Ossetia, and Tskhinvali. This would be an objective way of presenting the material," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said. Current Western media coverage of the events in the separatist republic is "a politically motivated version, to put it mildly," he said. [8]
On August 11, 2008, the government funded Russia Today TV channel accused CNN of presenting video footage made by Russia Today in South Ossetia as pictures of bombed Gori. [9]
Blogger James Poulos at The Guardian remarked that "As Russian columns advance into Georgia proper, columns in the American press fill with dire warnings and withering contempt for anyone so puerile as to ever trust a Russian... The anti-Russia lobby is giving the pro-Israel lobby a run for its money, hyping the settling of scores among two European, Orthodox Christian countries as more dangerous to the peace and security of the west than any clash of civilisations or jihad ever was... The anti-Russian reaction obscures the basic particularity of the Georgian situation, and all the history that informs it." [10]
Justin Raimondo at Antiwar.com, a anti-interventionist advocacy website, stated that "The anti-Russian bias of the Western media is really something to behold: 'Russia Invades Georgia,' 'Russia Attacks Georgia,' and variations thereof have been some of the choice headlines reporting events in the Caucasus, but the reality is not only quite different, but the exact opposite. Sometimes this comes out in the third or fourth paragraph of the reportage, in which it is admitted that the Georgians tried to 'retake' the 'breakaway province' of South Ossetia. The Georgian bombing campaign and the civilian casualties – if they are mentioned at all – are downplayed and presented as subject to dispute." [11]
What? Practically all of Russia's media is much more biased than this section claims the western media to be. This stuff here is only propaganda by Russia Today and RIAN (Russian state agencies) plus some bloggers' claims. --
Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (
talk)
18:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Good catch, too. This article needs a MAJOR cleanup overally. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
And so, it was reinstated again. This is SO STUPID. So we've got:
Yes, it's all MUST-BE MATERIAL IN SERRRRRIOUS ENCYCLOPEDIA (ANYONE CAN EDIT).
People, please keep removing this shit (I can't guard the article, besides there's this 3RR stuff). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Add it? Look at this Associated Press report. Count the number of inconsistencies in Russian communcations that we'd have to add. "Russian at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise", [Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov "denied that Russian troops were anywhere near [Poti]" vs We have seen more and more Russian troops coming into the area all day etc etc. A person could probably fill a page detailing apparent bias in Russian sources. This section needs to go. Bdell555 ( talk) 19:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=231738472&oldid=231738034 - and again reinstated, with the reason "This should stay" (almost as good as "Add it.").
"This should stay" WHY again? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Add it" referred to "the HRW report of village burning campaign which got zero space in the article". - Colfer2 ( talk) 19:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Some mainstream media have questioned the simple vision of the Georgian conflict. Charles King in the Christian Science Monitor: “The emerging narrative, echoing across editorial pages and on television news programs in the US, portrays Georgia as an embattled, pro-Western country struggling to secure its borders against a belligerent Russia…. Russia must be condemned for its unsanctioned intervention. But the war began as an ill-considered move by Georgia to retake South Ossetia by force. Saakashvili's larger goal was to lead his country into war as a form of calculated self-sacrifice, hoping that Russia's predictable overreaction would convince the West of exactly the narrative that many commentators have now taken up.” http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.html
Adjpro ( talk) 19:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Captain and dog, Could you clarify what you think I'm trying too hard to do and what is outdated? In my mind, I am trying to work with people on this list to come up with a good entry. Noting that media may be simplistic does not seem to suggest anything about Georgian genocide. I appreciated your comments asking for entries to be better written, but what you just wrote is too flip and self-involved to be understood.
For some reason, what I wrote in response to Lokiit above did not come through. I rejected LokiiT's use of the word propaganda, because it implied dishonesty -- the article he cited only suggests "PR."
Thank you
Adjpro ( talk) 20:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Human Rights Watch says there is "a massive Russia propaganda machine" at work here. What I don't understand is why editors who apparently consider themselves "left wing" are effectively trying to attack the credibility of human rights groups. Reading HRW's stories on Gitmo, it seemed to me they are more "left" than "right". HRW has advocated for abortion legalisation, gay rights, and the abolition of capital punishment. Can someone explain this apparent contradiction to me? Bdell555 ( talk) 20:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Winners — Vladimir Putin: he made it clear to the world that Georgia had been the aggressor and that his soldiers were intervening to stop “genocide” (...) Losers — Mikhail Saakashvili: the picture of the Georgian President cowering from a Russian helicopter said it all".
Does not compute - "interesting" indeed. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
You miss the point, obviously both Russian and Georgian media are biased, there is no point including claims to that effect, the question is whether outside media is biased.-- Miyokan ( talk) 02:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Four countries (de-facto): Russia, Georgia, Abkhasia and South Ossetia were directly involded in conflict. There is no sense to make any notion about their media bias - their bias is obvious. But the media of other countries (western or not) can be expected to be neutral. So, allegation of their bias is worth to be included. And... western media is considered 'independept' and 'neutral', aren't they?
Now about 'blogger'. The articla is placed at http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/11/georgia.russia1, while I can see separate button for blogs, and address is different and it looks different. Example: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/08/busted_how_america_turned_the.html. Please compare them: unlike previous, the second if clearly visible as blog. So, it looks to me that the text about Ossetia war bias is placed as article, not as blog. This means that notion about it should be restored because article in The Guardian on this topic is surely notable. This should be done because currently it's not neutral: I can see Russian (side of conflict) allegations vs. allegations of HRW (considered as neutral international organisation). Allegation on western bias placed in western media will fix the picture. 79.175.2.54 ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
No one could be treated as neutral instead of asia or africa... West wanted Georgia to enter NATO to do so they need to fulfill NATO restrictions. Country with unclear borders cant enter NATO. It is not an empty words, remember the reaction of Turkey after US officially acknowledge of Armenian Genocide, and remember that Georgia would be a great backup in that region. And US waste a lot of resource to reinforce Georgia army for that purpose. And Georgia fights with American weapons in this conflict! It would be very naive thinking that after that Bush simply agreed with Russian claims and express any discontent about Georgia. So blindly just for bush speech about occupation of Georgian city Poti wouldn't be a rational step. Dprohorova ( talk) 22:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
About media bias and propaganda war: I think everyone should watch this video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ ) from Fox News to understand how US media is waging information war against Russia in order to support its puppet Saakashvili. They cut any info that doesn't correspond with their scheme. They don't need to know what the 12-year old girl and her aunt have to say, they don't need to hear truth because they already have their own "truth". It's the kind of stuff that was well shown in "Wag the Dog". Watch that movie once again and you'll understand what is really happening in the western media now. - Jake7 ( talk) 10:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
PS. Dear user CopperKettle (if it was your who deleted this comment) - why the hell do you think that you can do such things without any notice and explanation?!! I ask administrators to ban this user for such actions! This is the Talk page!!! Which is ment to discuss issues, not to hide them! This video is the fact and is important in understanding why the "allegations of media bias" appeared! I thought it was enough that YouTube started to delete comments to this video in a large scale and seems to have freezed the counter so that this video couldn't rise up in popularity ratings so it could see more people. Now I see that someone wants that noone could here about this even on wikipedia! Where's the "freedom of speech" all the West was admired of?
PPS. And please, CopperKettle, do not erase this post this time, because I anyway will restore it! - Jake7 ( talk) 17:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
1. If you watch the link, you will find out that not only did she complete what she said- but it rolled for another couple of minuets afterwords.
2. The commercial break was nothing special- it actually seemed to have lasted longer then most small interviews FNC dose- i will guarantee you that whoever posted this doesn't watch FNC, nothing was out of place.
3. This is speculation on my part, but how dose a 12 year old girl tell the difference between two sides who wear the same uniform, who has been in Russia right after they fled- what proof do we have that they aren't being told what happened by the Russian state-run media?
4. more speculation, but since they quoted the Russian statistics (that have been challenged many times by independents) wouldn't it be same to assume they are just saying what they heard? In a combat zone you have no idea what is going on, its not until you are safe and looking at it from another prospective that you get a sense of what happened, and since the place they did that was in North Ossetia- they got a Russian state-media point of view. This seems to consider with their Russian quoted statistics.
I can guarantee that they didn't see the emblem on the side of the plane, and their have been questions raised about who exactly bombed the city- Georgian president claims Russia carpet bombed the city, while South Ossetia and Russia said Georgia shelled the city with artillery.
No doubt Georgia did damage to the city, heck we did damage to Baghdad and we are much more accurate than the Russians, but to imply Georgia was attacking civilians is going to far in reasonable assumptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 02:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, i can't watch this video at the moment, due to narrow inet bandwidth, but i, nevertheless, believe, that no media company would be stupid or careless enough to manifest its bias in such an obvious way, as an abruptly interrupted broadcast of ongoing material is. However, i want to compare my experience of watching media coverage on the Russian channels, with someone, who watched the western ones. First of all, in the russian news, since the very time the Russian troops entered Tskhinvali(but long before the Georgian government admitted it), there were numerous video reports containing interviews with ossetian civilians on what have happened to them. There, i wanna cite this ( http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117990468.html?categoryid=14&cs=1) article (used somewhere in the refs of main page), which purpose was to disprove western media bias: "During the past few days, Russia’s state television" — russia-don't-really-have-any-freedom-of-speech crap removed — "has been running rolling news updates on the heavy fighting, interspersed with highly emotive photos of ethnic Russian refugee women and children shown to the accompaniment of classical music." Well, what can i say, of course, it's possible, that i could have missed such kind of reports, despite my intent monitoring of the topic, but, nevertheless, this kind of description looks to me like a some foreigner's idea of what a dumb russian propaganda might be looking like. The reports i saw, while certainly being "highly emotive", were
The question is: was any footage from these reports shown in western media, the most remarkable one being the footage of the French President Nicolas Sarkozi himself, amidst the mob of Ossetian Tskhinvali citizens, trying to comfort a crying old woman, which btw was telling him "the same old fairytales" of Georgians sweeping basements, killing elderly woman and 2 kids with tank etc., and pleading him for EU-protection of S.Ossetia from Georgia? If not, then maybe someone will be able to find any links to them? The other thing i experience, is some derision in russian media concerning Saakashvili's western-directed cries for help, especially various staged video like "Tskhinvali under Georgian control"(where Georgian guys shoot at an unarmed citizen at the distance), "Saakashvili's public statement on invasion by Russia"(where he speaks in english, despite the fact, that hardly many georgians understand it), "Saakashvili under Attack"(where he cowers from nowhere to be heard russian bomber plane, while passing-by regular sitizens aren't doing anything of the sort) and so on. His press statements are also being laughed at, because, as it seems after listening to russian news, their only purpose is to frighten ordinary Georgian to death, with "russians are getting nearer with every moment, but i'll defend Tbilisi till i die" rant. Most notable being one of his statements about "50 russian tanks on the border of Gori", which was disproved by his own, Georgian Ministry Of Defence official stating "these were not 50 Russian tanks, but 3 Georgian BTRs". Maybe, someone can find some links on these? All in all, can anyone provide any similar details on western media coverage and impression of what's going on implied by it? I think, it will be very interesting, at least, and can be incorporated in the wikipedia article's media bias section, maybe in form of references to broadcast schedules or something. Ah, i've nearly forgotten, speaking about "Russian Accuracy", i have also heard a statement from russian military commander, that, in this conflict, they're using only precise-strike armaments "which, of course, cost much more, than conventional ones, but do not endanger lives of civilians". That, for the time being, concludes the list of news, i feel, didn't make it through translation barrier. I'm really sorry, guys, that i gave no links here, i just can't put much more effort in it right now. =(( ETST ( talk) 09:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where to put this, but the picture of 'Georgian Rocket Launchers' from Novosty on the front page is almost certainly Russian rocket launchers. It's generally agreed that the Georgian attack on Tskhinvalli occurred at night and by the early morning they were in the city. So why is the picture of the supposed bombardment of Tskhinvali nearer to midday? If the attack was a surprise, its unlikely that Russia photographers would be on hand behind the lines to film Georgian artillery. Moreover, the damage patterns in Tskhinvali as described by Human Rights Watch is not consistant with bombardment from a multiple launch rocket system, but is much more consistant with conventional artillery. If this is Georgian artillery in the photograph, then its almost certainly not firing at Tskhinvalli, and the claim from Russian press that it is makes the whole picture that much more suspect. The AP has shown pictures of Russian armored columns containing large numbers of BM-21 'Grad' launchers (I'm fairly certain this is the type shown in the photo), so we know that the Russia military is using those weapons in theater. Yes, Georgia does have BM-21's in theater and may have even used them at some point and maybe even on Tskhinvalli (I've seen nighttime video footage that is more convincing), but given the origin of the picture it is far more likely to be Russian rockets in the photograph. - Celebrim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.115.19.254 ( talk) 19:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was able to create a scrolling reference box for the reference section. If this causes havoc with your browser please revert the edit. I did this as an attempt to reduce the article display size for better viewing.-- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 06:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
BLASTED USER: I would call this entire thing a fiscal disturbance according to the factors of 'western involvement', today it occured to me, that this was message board particle as well --- saying if the internal-infuriation gets like this it will -- then there was the presidential satire of the number of presidents in russia outnumbering the number of people in georgia all of whcih remember oddly a diff'rent strokes reference, because of this behaviour -- I say let 'em crash... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.238.188 ( talk) 21:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've had it. Someone is repeatedly removing my edits, made in good faith, and is replacing them with poorly written pro-Russian propaganda. I'm no fan of Georgia, but when the only sources in a section are lurid, state-sponsored Russian media tales of Georgian atrocities, the section needs change. I added to the section about humanitarian conditions in South Ossetia the NPOV tag and the Human Rights Watch report discounting the (obviously grossly exaggerated) Russian statistics. The former was removed, the latter watered down and placed at the bottom. What is this?
Regnum, the mouthpiece of the Russian government, is used as a source in a war between Russia and Georgia? Human Rights Watch, an infinitely more credible source, is downplayed and ignored? This was my original paragraph, added below the South Ossetian government casualty figure:
This is the "new and improved" (i.e., vague and badly written) version, conveniently placed at the bottom of the page:
Let's move to the section on Georgia, shall we?
"Ossetian fighters" needs quotation marks while "a Georgian task force entered the city and burned a family alive in their house, and that a column of fleeing refugees was attacked by Georgians" does not? The Times is a perfectly reliable source, and there is no reason to think that the people who were going to kill him (he was saved by his journalist status) were not South Ossetians.
There are no allegations here. It is now a fact, confirmed by many reputable and consistent sources (CNN, the Times, AP, Humans Rights Watch) that the South Ossetians are looting Georgian villages and occasionally burning houses. THESE ARE NOT ASSERTIONS MADE BY THE GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT - THESE ACCOUNTS ARE COLLECTED ON THE GROUND BY INDEPENDENT OBSERVERS.
And now we come to the most delicious part of all this:
In case the reader doesn't understand that these are completely false allegations, that there are quotes around the "disputed allegations" (note the quotes!) is spelled out right before! How convenient! "Ossetian man" - well, I'm sure the Georgians are planting villagers who speak Ossetic in the face of dozens of Russian tanks just to fool Human Rights Watch! And, of course, the claims of the "guardian" (capitalization is so passé!) are "impossible to verify", but those of the Russian media-government are not only fully verifiable but in fact are to be relied upon as central sources! And how! aristotle1990 ( talk) 02:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
as Source 11 supposedly states that Russia has lost; "74 Russian troops killed, 171 wounded and 19 missing in action" but the article has no mention of casualties other then to say that CNN could not verify the conflicting reports on casualties. Please can someone amend this article. This is yet again another example of an edit to Wikipedia which is unsourced which reflects poorly on the Russians ... hardly NPOV is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senor Freebie ( talk • contribs) 05:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
During a visit Tuesday arranged by the Russian government, journalists from The Associated Press and other Western media were escorted into the city aboard armored vehicles.
Reporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.
The heaviest damage from the recent fighting appeared to be around Tskhinvali's government center. More than a dozen buildings in the area were little more than scorched shells.
Several residential areas seemed to have little damage, except for shattered windows, perhaps from bomb concussions.
Russian army agitprop tour backfires, as little-to-no evidence of their wild claims:
Army Col. Igor Kononenko showed off a civilian neighborhood, once part of the old Jewish quarter, that sustained extensive damage. He said that was proof the Georgians targeted civilians.
"This street is very small, tanks can't go through here," he said, arguing there was no military reason for the Georgian military to shell the neighborhood.
However, the district stands on a hillside in the line of fire between Georgian rocket position and Tskhinvali's government center, located around the university. Some civilians in the area conceded Georgian fire at the government building might have fallen short.
At the regional hospital, doctors said the patients were moved to the basement during Georgia's bombardment of the city, and had to do without light, water or toilets. The dungeon-like rooms still stank of sewage Tuesday, while sheets and bandages were stained with blood.Dr. Tina Zhakarova, who said the hospital had treated 224 patients during the fighting, called the Georgian assault on the city an act of ethnic cleansing.
Noting the medical facility had been damaged, she held out a handful of shrapnel to reporters. Doctors can protect people from disease, she said. "How can we protect them against this?"
But from the outside, the hospital appeared to have only light damage, either from bullets or shrapnel. Most of the windows were shattered.
Russian army officers said a Georgian missile pierced the hospital's roof and caused damage not visible on the outside. But they refused to show reporters the destruction, saying it was not safe.
Maybe the best:
Outside town, dozens of houses burned along the main road. A Russian officer said some of the buildings had been burning for days and others were damaged the previous night during an airstrike by a single Georgian plane.
When an AP photographer rode through the same villages Monday morning, none of the houses was burning. The fires only began Monday night, more than 24 hours after the battle for the city was over
Heavy damage in Tskhinvali, mostly at gov't center
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny. Much (much) more damage (UN: "most destroyed city on earth" [37]), many more casualties, much more bigger city too, so I guess you'll be totally outraged. Right?
One sentence also bolded with no comment. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, let's see what the other journalists in the group say about a trip with Colonel Kononenko (btw, the whole story turns out to be just like the fairy tale of "Jeningrad"). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
British The Guardian:
Several truck-mounted rocket launchers were a sign of Moscow's intent to hold Tskhinvali at all costs. Approaching Tskhinvali, the group of reporters was transferred to armoured personnel carriers because of the risk of fire from Georgian snipers, said the Russian officers leading the trip.
In villages close to the city there were many burned out houses, and others were still ablaze. In the city itself it was clear that claims the city had been levelled to the ground by artillery were exaggerated. However, it was also evident that while some neighbourhoods were intact, there were patches of terrible destruction.
Some residential areas were hit during the fighting ("patches" of destruction, including one "whole street of 100 meters" just south of the gvt centre - the same one AP said might be hit by accident because of ground elevation), others not at all ("intact"). In all, Russian claims "clearly exaggerated". Nearby Georgian villages are looted and burning. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
AP Google update of the original AP report also contains this:
An AP photographer saw irregular troops near burning homes in ethnic Georgian villages, and there was evidence of looting in those areas.
At an Ezeit electronics store with smashed windows, a few appliances stood outside, but most of the stock seemed to be gone.
Nearby, a man in dark glasses, camouflage and a Kalashnikov assault rifle drove a tractor hauling what looked like a large refrigerator partly visible under a blanket. A car went down the road with two new satellite dishes on top. [38]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately the Russians aren't letting western journalists into the Gori area (never mind South Ossetia) to see what's been going on there: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia4 Bdell555 ( talk) 11:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, BBC.
As the Russian military moved deeper into Georgian territory on Wednesday, thousands of people continued to flee towards Tbilisi.
It is a mass exodus that Georgia's capital cannot cope with. Many schools and kindergartens across the city are full of displaced people. (...) The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify. But despair and fear is, unmistakably, on the rise here. (...) "The government says only 120 people have been killed, but it is not true," she said.
"In Gori, I saw lorries full of bodies being delivered to the hospital every day. So many people have died, why is the government lying?"
Georgians fear revenge attacks
Saying about the claims of the Georgian government downplaying the real number of the killed Georgians - it probably does, as I already wrote elsewhere (in opposition to the Russian claims of "total genocide" and what not). It may be a lie but a different kind of lie, one not sparking what BBC called "revenge attacks".
Also, there was a discussion ealrier here on talk page about that South Ossetian militiamen should be called "army". It's not an army, an army has a clear chain of command (and accountibility), and they're bands of armed looters who go around in civilian cars and tractors - and doing looting. It's a militia(s) or at best paramilitary, unruly irregulars. It's not army and the "South Ossetian military" may be maybe these 3,000 guys with Russian tanks at the first day of war, and not everyone and his brother handed-out some kind of uniform, dark glasses and a rifle and told to avange "genocide". "Volunteer" is not the right word - US Army is volunteer, that is professional (as opposed to, say, the mostly conscript Russian). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait, I thought our job here is to post facts and not POVaculate prematurely. Captain, I am a supporter of democracy and freedom as well, but you seem to be going overboard, how about you tone down a little? 68.151.34.161 ( talk) 09:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia informed Georgia's Interior Ministry that its troops will remain deployed around the city of Gori, near South Ossetia, for as many as three days, ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said... In Gori, Russian troops are transporting seized Georgian military equipment ( which is supplied by the United States)... [39] 24.0.64.87 ( talk)
True, I agree with the first post as for the second (part), technically accurate however it's obvious that that are looking for anything western and more advanced as history would state the information should acknowledge Russians known history of "acquiring" the West's technologies by what ever means possible, one more report:
As it turns out I was correct:
I'm concerned about adding all of the material in this report because it may increase the amount of material discussing the humanitarian impact to undue weight. Perhaps just the section below, which appears to mention the worst of the problems, and/or select elements from the rest of the report should be incorporated:
.... Russian officers at the checkpoint told Human Rights Watch that the road closure was due to the massive looting taking place in Georgian villages along the road.
However, moving back from Tskhinvali to Java on the evening of August 13, Human Rights Watch researchers saw, for the second day running, houses that were ablaze in several Georgian villages. They had clearly just been torched. One counterintelligence officer of the South Ossetian forces claimed to Human Rights Watch that: “We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.”
The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man... http://www.humanrightswatch.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm Bdell555 ( talk) 12:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital.
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It's best to site sources from both sides. Western related media is biased.
-- What Max —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, Human Rights Watch saw several buildings that bore traces of heavy ammunition as if fired from tanks at close range. There was some evidence of firing being directed into basements, locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter.
One thing:
At a crossroads in the north of the city there was evidence of a fierce fire fight. Three destroyed Georgian tanks were slewed across the road, a mess of ash and twisted metal. The heavy turret of one tank had been tossed across the street, falling through a shop front. Nearby on the ground lay a human foot. (...) "Those tanks in the street, we hit them with rocket propelled grenades from the basement." [42]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 12:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
German TV has a short video clip from behind Russian lines. The German speaking reporter alleges ethnic cleansing. Bdell555 ( talk) 16:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Please note that Captain Obvious is violating Wikipedia Guidelines by deleting messages he doesn't want to see ( 1, 2) and adding clearly provocative comments to them. At the same time he allows himself to write such things as
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny.
I think it's a clear violation of those policies he himself tries to force on others. Moreover, he shows that attitude for quite a time now. Wikipedia is not a forum nor is this a place for people to force their POV. Rules are written for everybody. Please do something about him. -- 78.107.85.14 ( talk) 14:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been much discussion of both sides' justification of their actions, but little as to their reasons for them. I think it would give a greater insight into events if some motivation were suggested. For example, one media outlet suggested that Russia is "building a soviet state".
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There needs to be a sentence in the article clarifying why so many South Ossetians have Russian passports; that this was something that Russia offered to all former Soviet citizens when the USSR collapsed. That the people in territories such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia took up the offer because it provided them social services that the government of Georgia would not give them.
Basically, there needs to be some context here. They weren't all suddenly given passports in the past month.
I'm sure I remember reading some sources about this... Esn ( talk) 05:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[1]Russian troops are handing over control of the area around the town of Gori to Georgian forces, officials say. Who are these "officials" is what I'd like to know. It doesn't look like they're planning on going any further either way, which is good news. LokiiT ( talk) 06:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a point I made yesterday, but it wasn't taken up. In any military history article I ever remember reading on WP or elsewhere, the background comes first, followed by an account of the action, followed if necessary by the aftermath. Why has this convention been reversed here? Putting the "timeline" where it belongs, after the "background" section, wouldn't prevent it being seen or being edited. On the other hand, it would greatly improve the flow of the article. Of course, I could be bold and just do it, but the article is being edited so frequently that it would likely be reverted without explanation if there wasn't a consensus to do it first. So what do people think? Scolaire ( talk) 06:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The reasons are as follows: 1. That picture has been taken in Bosnia, not in South Ossetia. 2. The troops are not in the peacekeeping uniform. This distorts the perception of the Russian peacekeepers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pglukhov ( talk • contribs) 07:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Looks like standard Russian military armor and infantry to me. Just like the Russians who invaded. It should probably stay 70.192.159.112 ( talk) 07:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Its refreshing to see someone who also agrees with me CopperKettle. Clearly the picture does not depict peacekeepers, and the Russian reaction force of the 58th Army were not part of the peacekeeping contigent. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry CopperKettle, forgot to mention that the region currently known as South Ossetia has historically been a part of Georgia since at least the 12th century, inhabited by Georgians. Oh, surprise surprise, so has Abkhazia. If you are going to reference Wiki articles ya might want to check out that section at the bottom: See also See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Our conversation is about Goergia. Ethnic cleansing was first mentioned by the Russian media but has been uncofirmed and the number of dead stated by the Russians as 2000 since the biginning of the conflict is referenced as unfounded in the article. Furthermore Serbians with a UN peacekeeping force displayed an inability to refrain from comitting attrocities. Georgians displayed no such aggression towards Ossetians or Abkhazians after the initial peacekeeping force of Russians and Georgians were set up. Additionally, NO NATION extended citizenship or pensions to Kosovoans while they were a part of Serbia. The US does not recognize the the IRA as a valid political entity, it is a British problem inside of SOVEREIGN BRITISH territory, just as the US did not consider the CHECHEN problem inside SOVERIEGN RUSSIA a US issue. Any more questions 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 08:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Copper Kettle I would ask you to look at a map of Georgia at the time it was included into the Russian empire, circa 1800. This map clearly shows South Ossetia and Abkhazia, including the region up to Sochi as a part of Georgia. You seem like a resourceful fellow, see if you can find it. Not on the internet, try opening a history book in your local library. if you can, try to actually look at it and understand the borders. These are the borders of SOVEREIGN GEORGIA. Russia had a right to protect it's peacekeepers. Russia did not have any foundation to base an invasion of Gerogia on. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 08:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://feefhs.org/maps/ruse/re-cac.html here's a map for you. Look the nuts and butter is Russia has been stirring the nationalist stuff to keep Georgia off-balance. Russia wanted Georgia back to control the North South energy corridor, why do you think Russia is so freindly with Iran? They wan't to transit Iranian oil and gas, and all pipeline based middle eastern oil and gas into europe. My honest opinion, totally POV, is that the conflict started, as we know because of rebel-georgian escalation as a result of rebels shelling Georgian vilages. We do not know who started the shelling. There are unconfirmed reports that after the Georgians took Tskhinvali, they pushed north to seal the Roki gorge only to find the Russians camped out at the entrance to the Ossetian side. Their artillery positions had also been shelling Georgian villages and positions. This explains why Georgia could not seal the roki gorge, a very simple and logical tacitcal move to stop the russians from bringing their main element south. A fierce fight ensued destroying this russian element which slowed the main russian element moving south but did not stop them because of Russian bombing sorties. This allowed Russia to proceed through the Roki gorge and set up in Java, and the Georgians conducted a tactical retreat with ambushes because Tkhinvali is a tactically indefensible position. After puonding the hell out of Tskhinvali the main Russian element poured in, the Georgians were in a bad position outside the city and tactically retreated again to Gori. By this time Putin had returned and someone ordered an escalation. The deciding factor in Tskhinvali was air superiority and Russia had it.
Nil, go edit something. nice talkig to you Copper 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 09:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I have adding an reference on Russian tanks photo taken in Gori. Why it is undo without discussion? Is it because the source is written byin Chinese? The undo seems to be vandalism--
Kittyhawk2 (
talk)
07:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, forget the raped and probably murdered 25 year old innocent civilian. Your ability to properly format sentences in correct English with proper citations are more than enough to reconcile the serious pain and suffering of innocent peoples trapped in a human tragedy. With such excellent grammatical attention there is no need for any humanity. With any luck this thing will blow wide open and we'll have plenty of bloody atrocities to cite just like Darfur or Rawanda or Bosnia or Cambodia or etc., etc. Just be glad you live in a place that gives you that ability. That freedom. 70.192.159.112 ( talk) 07:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC) please excuse oh great master, I forgot to tilde as instructed after my previous post
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jNBg25n8qYjQyiQ-osgnmBJH6xSQ Russians and South Ossetians going house to house and looting, might be worth mentioning, maybe. 70.192.159.112 ( talk) 07:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011311.html Ossetians, Cossacks and Chechens pillaging, might be worth mentioning, maybe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia6 Now Russians and irregulars burning AND looting villages, I don't know if that actually merits mention, but maybe, maybe 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
My bad Big t loki, I only wanted to display that the media we get is isolated to the area in and around South Ossetia. Russia controls most of NW Georgia. So this is not isolated. It concerns me greatly that all the media we get is controlled. again, my bad. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 07:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[2]: August 13 timeline - ethnic cleansing; volatile ceasfire; ongoing military occupation.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually I do not see this mentioned in the August 13 timeline. It is referenced in the Aid section, but seeing as this is a new development in the conflict and part of the military operaion, involving Russians and irregulars (S. Ossetians, Cossacks and Chechens) as a military tactic not unlike Russian paratroopers carrying out raids on 11 August or the Abkhaz offensive mentioned on 12 August, it should be placed in the timeline. It is well sourced, citing your link and the previous articles. 75.216.50.89 ( talk) 08:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
'Demonstration in Tbilisi for a free and undivided Georgia on August 12 2008.' isn't what i'd call unbiased.
A Georgian version of the Inter Press Service reports that Georgians are tortured and killed in the Russian cities. A mob of young neo-Nazis tortured to death 4 Georgians in Moscow and 17 Georgians were reportedly murdered in St.-Petersburg district. Georgians are also terrorized in Vladikavkaz. Thousands of Georgians are fleeing Russia, but they are not allowed to cross into Georgia and face a humanitarian crisis at the Russian border checkpoints. [3] Once this information becomes available in English, I think it should be included in our Wikipedia article. Thanks, -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 11:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
is a slander. The Russian government has never encouraged racism. Every case of attacks on immigrants has been condemned at a highest level."...attacks on foreigners are encouraged by authorities in Russia"
Condemned, but not punished. The State Duma members overtly participate in ultra-nationalist demonstrations. GRU's ties with militant chauvinist groups are also well known.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
English-language reports plz. (Can't see any, so it's probably just a rumour only.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Where was Mamuka Kurashvili when war has begun? In news showed as it with a column of peacemakers entered in Ossetia, and in this time wounded. Kachalov ( talk) 12:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Reuters. More than 100 Russian vehicles were massed two km (1.5 miles) from the centre of Zugdidi, a major town in western Georgia, a Reuters witness said.
"I counted 104 Russian army vehicles, including 40 armored vehicles, most of which are tanks," Reuters staff photographer Umit Bektas said by telephone from the city.
Bektas said their purpose was unclear.
He said the convoy included weapons such as rocket propelled grenades and was carrying Russian flags. Ongoing still. Ijanderson977 ( talk) 14:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think ...which the Human Rights Watch investigators called "suspicious" and "very doubtful" should be deleted. Anyone can find sources which calls any thing and any event suspicious and doubtful. We need only facts. More than 2,000 people were killed! It's not jokes, it's people's lifes. Shame on you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taamu ( talk • contribs) 14:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The phrasing might be changed, but your assessment that the numbers given by Russian/South Ossetian officials are facts despite being challenged by HRW and other sources is very POV. 132.68.72.110 ( talk) 15:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Would you like the article to include Putin's claims that people were "sawed in pieces"? Bdell555 ( talk) 15:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Help. We need help from other editors to stop a campaign to move, and then reduce or delete the Human Rights Watch reporting in this article. See the diff for an edit summary stating the editor's intent to marginalize the HRW reporting. This is a very serious matter, as once that editor has rearranged this fast-moving page, it will be difficult to evaluate and undo future edits leading to his or her stated goal. - Colfer2 ( talk) 15:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Surely HRW info should be present. For example their reports about the 1992-1993 war in Abkhazia were much more impartial than the majority of Western and Russian sources. Alæxis ¿question? 18:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Should not be italicized. It's a wire service, not a newspaper. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
This section is biased and a violation of WP:UNDUE. Aside from Kremlin and Russia Today allegations, it has links to "Antiwar.com" and to a guy who runs a blog. This view of "media bias" is held by a small minority and does not deserve such a big section. I think it should be removed. Does anyone else agree? Ostap 18:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, moved here:
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin accused foreign media of pro-Georgian bias in their coverage of the ongoing conflict between Georgia and Russia over breakaway South Ossetia. "We want television screens in the West to be showing not only Russian tanks, and texts saying Russia is at war in South Ossetia and with Georgia, but also to be showing the suffering of the Ossetian people, the murdered elderly people and children, the destroyed towns of South Ossetia, and Tskhinvali. This would be an objective way of presenting the material," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said. Current Western media coverage of the events in the separatist republic is "a politically motivated version, to put it mildly," he said. [3]
On August 11, 2008, the government funded Russia Today TV channel accused CNN of presenting video footage made by Russia Today in South Ossetia as pictures of bombed Gori. [4]
Blogger James Poulos at The Guardian remarked that "As Russian columns advance into Georgia proper, columns in the American press fill with dire warnings and withering contempt for anyone so puerile as to ever trust a Russian... The anti-Russia lobby is giving the pro-Israel lobby a run for its money, hyping the settling of scores among two European, Orthodox Christian countries as more dangerous to the peace and security of the west than any clash of civilisations or jihad ever was... The anti-Russian reaction obscures the basic particularity of the Georgian situation, and all the history that informs it." [5]
Justin Raimondo at Antiwar.com, a anti-interventionist advocacy website, stated that "The anti-Russian bias of the Western media is really something to behold: 'Russia Invades Georgia,' 'Russia Attacks Georgia,' and variations thereof have been some of the choice headlines reporting events in the Caucasus, but the reality is not only quite different, but the exact opposite. Sometimes this comes out in the third or fourth paragraph of the reportage, in which it is admitted that the Georgians tried to 'retake' the 'breakaway province' of South Ossetia. The Georgian bombing campaign and the civilian casualties – if they are mentioned at all – are downplayed and presented as subject to dispute." [6]
What? Practically all of Russia's media is much more biased than this section claims the western media to be. This stuff here is only propaganda by Russia Today and RIAN (Russian state agencies) plus some bloggers' claims. --
Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (
talk)
18:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Good catch, too. This article needs a MAJOR cleanup overally. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
And so, it was reinstated again. This is SO STUPID. So we've got:
Yes, it's all MUST-BE MATERIAL IN SERRRRRIOUS ENCYCLOPEDIA (ANYONE CAN EDIT).
People, please keep removing this shit (I can't guard the article, besides there's this 3RR stuff). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Add it? Look at this Associated Press report. Count the number of inconsistencies in Russian communcations that we'd have to add. "Russian at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise", [Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov "denied that Russian troops were anywhere near [Poti]" vs We have seen more and more Russian troops coming into the area all day etc etc. A person could probably fill a page detailing apparent bias in Russian sources. This section needs to go. Bdell555 ( talk) 19:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=231738472&oldid=231738034 - and again reinstated, with the reason "This should stay" (almost as good as "Add it.").
"This should stay" WHY again? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Add it" referred to "the HRW report of village burning campaign which got zero space in the article". - Colfer2 ( talk) 19:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Some mainstream media have questioned the simple vision of the Georgian conflict. Charles King in the Christian Science Monitor: “The emerging narrative, echoing across editorial pages and on television news programs in the US, portrays Georgia as an embattled, pro-Western country struggling to secure its borders against a belligerent Russia…. Russia must be condemned for its unsanctioned intervention. But the war began as an ill-considered move by Georgia to retake South Ossetia by force. Saakashvili's larger goal was to lead his country into war as a form of calculated self-sacrifice, hoping that Russia's predictable overreaction would convince the West of exactly the narrative that many commentators have now taken up.” http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.html
Adjpro ( talk) 19:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Captain and dog, Could you clarify what you think I'm trying too hard to do and what is outdated? In my mind, I am trying to work with people on this list to come up with a good entry. Noting that media may be simplistic does not seem to suggest anything about Georgian genocide. I appreciated your comments asking for entries to be better written, but what you just wrote is too flip and self-involved to be understood.
For some reason, what I wrote in response to Lokiit above did not come through. I rejected LokiiT's use of the word propaganda, because it implied dishonesty -- the article he cited only suggests "PR."
Thank you
Adjpro ( talk) 20:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Human Rights Watch says there is "a massive Russia propaganda machine" at work here. What I don't understand is why editors who apparently consider themselves "left wing" are effectively trying to attack the credibility of human rights groups. Reading HRW's stories on Gitmo, it seemed to me they are more "left" than "right". HRW has advocated for abortion legalisation, gay rights, and the abolition of capital punishment. Can someone explain this apparent contradiction to me? Bdell555 ( talk) 20:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Winners — Vladimir Putin: he made it clear to the world that Georgia had been the aggressor and that his soldiers were intervening to stop “genocide” (...) Losers — Mikhail Saakashvili: the picture of the Georgian President cowering from a Russian helicopter said it all".
Does not compute - "interesting" indeed. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
You miss the point, obviously both Russian and Georgian media are biased, there is no point including claims to that effect, the question is whether outside media is biased.-- Miyokan ( talk) 02:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Four countries (de-facto): Russia, Georgia, Abkhasia and South Ossetia were directly involded in conflict. There is no sense to make any notion about their media bias - their bias is obvious. But the media of other countries (western or not) can be expected to be neutral. So, allegation of their bias is worth to be included. And... western media is considered 'independept' and 'neutral', aren't they?
Now about 'blogger'. The articla is placed at http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/11/georgia.russia1, while I can see separate button for blogs, and address is different and it looks different. Example: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/08/busted_how_america_turned_the.html. Please compare them: unlike previous, the second if clearly visible as blog. So, it looks to me that the text about Ossetia war bias is placed as article, not as blog. This means that notion about it should be restored because article in The Guardian on this topic is surely notable. This should be done because currently it's not neutral: I can see Russian (side of conflict) allegations vs. allegations of HRW (considered as neutral international organisation). Allegation on western bias placed in western media will fix the picture. 79.175.2.54 ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
No one could be treated as neutral instead of asia or africa... West wanted Georgia to enter NATO to do so they need to fulfill NATO restrictions. Country with unclear borders cant enter NATO. It is not an empty words, remember the reaction of Turkey after US officially acknowledge of Armenian Genocide, and remember that Georgia would be a great backup in that region. And US waste a lot of resource to reinforce Georgia army for that purpose. And Georgia fights with American weapons in this conflict! It would be very naive thinking that after that Bush simply agreed with Russian claims and express any discontent about Georgia. So blindly just for bush speech about occupation of Georgian city Poti wouldn't be a rational step. Dprohorova ( talk) 22:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where to put this, but the picture of 'Georgian Rocket Launchers' from Novosty on the front page is almost certainly Russian rocket launchers. It's generally agreed that the Georgian attack on Tskhinvalli occurred at night and by the early morning they were in the city. So why is the picture of the supposed bombardment of Tskhinvali nearer to midday? If the attack was a surprise, its unlikely that Russia photographers would be on hand behind the lines to film Georgian artillery. Moreover, the damage patterns in Tskhinvali as described by Human Rights Watch is not consistant with bombardment from a multiple launch rocket system, but is much more consistant with conventional artillery. If this is Georgian artillery in the photograph, then its almost certainly not firing at Tskhinvalli, and the claim from Russian press that it is makes the whole picture that much more suspect. The AP has shown pictures of Russian armored columns containing large numbers of BM-21 'Grad' launchers (I'm fairly certain this is the type shown in the photo), so we know that the Russia military is using those weapons in theater. Yes, Georgia does have BM-21's in theater and may have even used them at some point and maybe even on Tskhinvalli (I've seen nighttime video footage that is more convincing), but given the origin of the picture it is far more likely to be Russian rockets in the photograph. - Celebrim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.115.19.254 ( talk) 19:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was able to create a scrolling reference box for the reference section. If this causes havoc with your browser please revert the edit. I did this as an attempt to reduce the article display size for better viewing.-- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 06:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
BLASTED USER: I would call this entire thing a fiscal disturbance according to the factors of 'western involvement', today it occured to me, that this was message board particle as well --- saying if the internal-infuriation gets like this it will -- then there was the presidential satire of the number of presidents in russia outnumbering the number of people in georgia all of whcih remember oddly a diff'rent strokes reference, because of this behaviour -- I say let 'em crash... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.238.188 ( talk) 21:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've had it. Someone is repeatedly removing my edits, made in good faith, and is replacing them with poorly written pro-Russian propaganda. I'm no fan of Georgia, but when the only sources in a section are lurid, state-sponsored Russian media tales of Georgian atrocities, the section needs change. I added to the section about humanitarian conditions in South Ossetia the NPOV tag and the Human Rights Watch report discounting the (obviously grossly exaggerated) Russian statistics. The former was removed, the latter watered down and placed at the bottom. What is this?
Regnum, the mouthpiece of the Russian government, is used as a source in a war between Russia and Georgia? Human Rights Watch, an infinitely more credible source, is downplayed and ignored? This was my original paragraph, added below the South Ossetian government casualty figure:
This is the "new and improved" (i.e., vague and badly written) version, conveniently placed at the bottom of the page:
Let's move to the section on Georgia, shall we?
"Ossetian fighters" needs quotation marks while "a Georgian task force entered the city and burned a family alive in their house, and that a column of fleeing refugees was attacked by Georgians" does not? The Times is a perfectly reliable source, and there is no reason to think that the people who were going to kill him (he was saved by his journalist status) were not South Ossetians.
There are no allegations here. It is now a fact, confirmed by many reputable and consistent sources (CNN, the Times, AP, Humans Rights Watch) that the South Ossetians are looting Georgian villages and occasionally burning houses. THESE ARE NOT ASSERTIONS MADE BY THE GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT - THESE ACCOUNTS ARE COLLECTED ON THE GROUND BY INDEPENDENT OBSERVERS.
And now we come to the most delicious part of all this:
In case the reader doesn't understand that these are completely false allegations, that there are quotes around the "disputed allegations" (note the quotes!) is spelled out right before! How convenient! "Ossetian man" - well, I'm sure the Georgians are planting villagers who speak Ossetic in the face of dozens of Russian tanks just to fool Human Rights Watch! And, of course, the claims of the "guardian" (capitalization is so passé!) are "impossible to verify", but those of the Russian media-government are not only fully verifiable but in fact are to be relied upon as central sources! And how! aristotle1990 ( talk) 02:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
as Source 11 supposedly states that Russia has lost; "74 Russian troops killed, 171 wounded and 19 missing in action" but the article has no mention of casualties other then to say that CNN could not verify the conflicting reports on casualties. Please can someone amend this article. This is yet again another example of an edit to Wikipedia which is unsourced which reflects poorly on the Russians ... hardly NPOV is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senor Freebie ( talk • contribs) 05:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
During a visit Tuesday arranged by the Russian government, journalists from The Associated Press and other Western media were escorted into the city aboard armored vehicles.
Reporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.
The heaviest damage from the recent fighting appeared to be around Tskhinvali's government center. More than a dozen buildings in the area were little more than scorched shells.
Several residential areas seemed to have little damage, except for shattered windows, perhaps from bomb concussions.
Russian army agitprop tour backfires, as little-to-no evidence of their wild claims:
Army Col. Igor Kononenko showed off a civilian neighborhood, once part of the old Jewish quarter, that sustained extensive damage. He said that was proof the Georgians targeted civilians.
"This street is very small, tanks can't go through here," he said, arguing there was no military reason for the Georgian military to shell the neighborhood.
However, the district stands on a hillside in the line of fire between Georgian rocket position and Tskhinvali's government center, located around the university. Some civilians in the area conceded Georgian fire at the government building might have fallen short.
At the regional hospital, doctors said the patients were moved to the basement during Georgia's bombardment of the city, and had to do without light, water or toilets. The dungeon-like rooms still stank of sewage Tuesday, while sheets and bandages were stained with blood.Dr. Tina Zhakarova, who said the hospital had treated 224 patients during the fighting, called the Georgian assault on the city an act of ethnic cleansing.
Noting the medical facility had been damaged, she held out a handful of shrapnel to reporters. Doctors can protect people from disease, she said. "How can we protect them against this?"
But from the outside, the hospital appeared to have only light damage, either from bullets or shrapnel. Most of the windows were shattered.
Russian army officers said a Georgian missile pierced the hospital's roof and caused damage not visible on the outside. But they refused to show reporters the destruction, saying it was not safe.
Maybe the best:
Outside town, dozens of houses burned along the main road. A Russian officer said some of the buildings had been burning for days and others were damaged the previous night during an airstrike by a single Georgian plane.
When an AP photographer rode through the same villages Monday morning, none of the houses was burning. The fires only began Monday night, more than 24 hours after the battle for the city was over
Heavy damage in Tskhinvali, mostly at gov't center
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny. Much (much) more damage (UN: "most destroyed city on earth" [5]), many more casualties, much more bigger city too, so I guess you'll be totally outraged. Right?
One sentence also bolded with no comment. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, let's see what the other journalists in the group say about a trip with Colonel Kononenko (btw, the whole story turns out to be just like the fairy tale of "Jeningrad"). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
British The Guardian:
Several truck-mounted rocket launchers were a sign of Moscow's intent to hold Tskhinvali at all costs. Approaching Tskhinvali, the group of reporters was transferred to armoured personnel carriers because of the risk of fire from Georgian snipers, said the Russian officers leading the trip.
In villages close to the city there were many burned out houses, and others were still ablaze. In the city itself it was clear that claims the city had been levelled to the ground by artillery were exaggerated. However, it was also evident that while some neighbourhoods were intact, there were patches of terrible destruction.
Some residential areas were hit during the fighting ("patches" of destruction, including one "whole street of 100 meters" just south of the gvt centre - the same one AP said might be hit by accident because of ground elevation), others not at all ("intact"). In all, Russian claims "clearly exaggerated". Nearby Georgian villages are looted and burning. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
AP Google update of the original AP report also contains this:
An AP photographer saw irregular troops near burning homes in ethnic Georgian villages, and there was evidence of looting in those areas.
At an Ezeit electronics store with smashed windows, a few appliances stood outside, but most of the stock seemed to be gone.
Nearby, a man in dark glasses, camouflage and a Kalashnikov assault rifle drove a tractor hauling what looked like a large refrigerator partly visible under a blanket. A car went down the road with two new satellite dishes on top. [6]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately the Russians aren't letting western journalists into the Gori area (never mind South Ossetia) to see what's been going on there: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia4 Bdell555 ( talk) 11:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, BBC.
As the Russian military moved deeper into Georgian territory on Wednesday, thousands of people continued to flee towards Tbilisi.
It is a mass exodus that Georgia's capital cannot cope with. Many schools and kindergartens across the city are full of displaced people. (...) The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify. But despair and fear is, unmistakably, on the rise here. (...) "The government says only 120 people have been killed, but it is not true," she said.
"In Gori, I saw lorries full of bodies being delivered to the hospital every day. So many people have died, why is the government lying?"
Georgians fear revenge attacks
Saying about the claims of the Georgian government downplaying the real number of the killed Georgians - it probably does, as I already wrote elsewhere (in opposition to the Russian claims of "total genocide" and what not). It may be a lie but a different kind of lie, one not sparking what BBC called "revenge attacks".
Also, there was a discussion ealrier here on talk page about that South Ossetian militiamen should be called "army". It's not an army, an army has a clear chain of command (and accountibility), and they're bands of armed looters who go around in civilian cars and tractors - and doing looting. It's a militia(s) or at best paramilitary, unruly irregulars. It's not army and the "South Ossetian military" may be maybe these 3,000 guys with Russian tanks at the first day of war, and not everyone and his brother handed-out some kind of uniform, dark glasses and a rifle and told to avange "genocide". "Volunteer" is not the right word - US Army is volunteer, that is professional (as opposed to, say, the mostly conscript Russian). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait, I thought our job here is to post facts and not POVaculate prematurely. Captain, I am a supporter of democracy and freedom as well, but you seem to be going overboard, how about you tone down a little? 68.151.34.161 ( talk) 09:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia informed Georgia's Interior Ministry that its troops will remain deployed around the city of Gori, near South Ossetia, for as many as three days, ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said... In Gori, Russian troops are transporting seized Georgian military equipment ( which is supplied by the United States)... [7] 24.0.64.87 ( talk)
True, I agree with the first post as for the second (part), technically accurate however it's obvious that that are looking for anything western and more advanced as history would state the information should acknowledge Russians known history of "acquiring" the West's technologies by what ever means possible, one more report:
As it turns out I was correct:
I'm concerned about adding all of the material in this report because it may increase the amount of material discussing the humanitarian impact to undue weight. Perhaps just the section below, which appears to mention the worst of the problems, and/or select elements from the rest of the report should be incorporated:
.... Russian officers at the checkpoint told Human Rights Watch that the road closure was due to the massive looting taking place in Georgian villages along the road.
However, moving back from Tskhinvali to Java on the evening of August 13, Human Rights Watch researchers saw, for the second day running, houses that were ablaze in several Georgian villages. They had clearly just been torched. One counterintelligence officer of the South Ossetian forces claimed to Human Rights Watch that: “We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.”
The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man... http://www.humanrightswatch.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm Bdell555 ( talk) 12:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital.
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It's best to site sources from both sides. Western related media is biased.
-- What Max —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, Human Rights Watch saw several buildings that bore traces of heavy ammunition as if fired from tanks at close range. There was some evidence of firing being directed into basements, locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter.
One thing:
At a crossroads in the north of the city there was evidence of a fierce fire fight. Three destroyed Georgian tanks were slewed across the road, a mess of ash and twisted metal. The heavy turret of one tank had been tossed across the street, falling through a shop front. Nearby on the ground lay a human foot. (...) "Those tanks in the street, we hit them with rocket propelled grenades from the basement." [10]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 12:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
German TV has a short video clip from behind Russian lines. The German speaking reporter alleges ethnic cleansing. Bdell555 ( talk) 16:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Please note that Captain Obvious is violating Wikipedia Guidelines by deleting messages he doesn't want to see ( 1, 2) and adding clearly provocative comments to them. At the same time he allows himself to write such things as
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny.
I think it's a clear violation of those policies he himself tries to force on others. Moreover, he shows that attitude for quite a time now. Wikipedia is not a forum nor is this a place for people to force their POV. Rules are written for everybody. Please do something about him. -- 78.107.85.14 ( talk) 14:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been much discussion of both sides' justification of their actions, but little as to their reasons for them. I think it would give a greater insight into events if some motivation were suggested. For example, one media outlet suggested that Russia is "building a soviet state".
Has the city Vladikavkaz been also occupied by the Russian army, does anyone know ? Prunk ( talk) 17:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The war has not only taken place in South Ossetia as the article title currently suggests, but in many other places in Georgia such as Abkhazia, Gori, the Black Sea, Zugdidi and outskirts of Tibilsi, ect. So we need to have another name for this article. Ijanderson ( talk) 18:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/14/AR2008081401611.html?hpid=topnews
From the article: "Russia appears to be withdrawing its forces from positions inside Georgia in initial compliance with a cease-fire agreement"..."Russian forces have practically ceased air operations in Georgia and are cooperating with U.S. military deliveries of humanitarian supplies for Georgia."
If this holds true, then the conflict appears to have ended, and we should edit the infobox accordingly.
Alphabravo11 ( talk) 18:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the autocomment facility. It discourages editors who arrive here with an idea from looking to see if we've already discussed it, which means we get a half-dozen discussions on the same topic. I don't see why this is a good thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I changed the status in the info box, this war is not "ongoing", its already over, Georgia lost.-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 19:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
::I didnt threaten anyone. just pointed out the truth. A few Estonian punks dont stand a chance against hardened former Soviet VDV Afghan vets.--
SergeiXXX (
talk)
02:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::And YES, the war is still on, technically, as the Russian Army is still there, and is still engaged in a stand off with the gogies. So, yeah, the Westerners are right on this one. Unfortunately.--
SergeiXXX (
talk)
02:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no mention of OSCE in the article. While we're at it, there's only little and outdated in International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war also. -- Vuo ( talk) 20:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
[[Image:Geogiacasualities.jpg|thumb|right|A Georgian man cries as he holds the body of his relative after a bombardment in Gori, 80 km (50 miles) from Tbilisi <ref>http://www.javno.com/en/foto.php?id=19&rbr=7941&idrf=381645</ref>]] This photo is faked. Here are the rest of the fake photos:
http://img12.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/1/2/f/8/9/12f89bef0459a49e1d9549a40e6514c4_full.jpg
The man pictured is wearing very clean clothes, and the "corpse" has no apparent damage (maybe the wound is on the back?)
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Same "corpse" turned over. No wound on the back, eh?
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/9/c/e/0/7/9ce078f42e63002a83c19031665beb61_full.jpg
The guy from the first picture is dressed up and ready for a new show
http://img13.nnm.ru/imagez/gallery/7/6/7/1/a/7671af3567d5056d5e7ac87f0c362367_full.jpg
Check out how the corpse is hanging onto the woman's shoulder! Do all corpses do that?
-- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I undid my own edit for now. But I still think it's obvious Georgian (Western?) propaganda. Haven't you been reading the news lately? All newspapers in New York, such as Daily News, NY Post and NY Times are spilling georgian propaganda all over, with authors' last names ending in "shvili". -- Mrcatzilla 20:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, would it be good to add to the information warfare section a few sentences about fake images distributed to media? -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 20:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Something that might be worth noting is the fact Georgia actually declared war in this case. This needs to be verified with a source, but I believe this might be the first major conflict in years in which an actual declaration by one of the parties has been made. Technically (so I understand but I may be wrong) the US never actually declared war when it went into Iraq, or even when the 1991 Gulf War broke out. The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 2000 were never a declared war. Etc. Again, I may be wrong, but this would make this conflict additionally notable if it is in fact the first outright declared war in recent years. (I'm not counting the War on Terror). 23skidoo ( talk) 20:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Consequences of Russian invasion of Georgia: ABM shield will be placed in Poland.ABM shield treaty will contain statement about American military help in case of invasion by "third party" In previous days Polish officials said Georgian invasion influenced their and American stance on the issue. [15] [16]
-- Molobo ( talk) 20:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
The "territorial changes" item in the infobox currently says: Georgia loses control over the ethnically Georgian loyalist territories in Abkhazia and in South Ossetia as the conflict continues. I'm confused as to how the phrase "ethnically Georgian loyalist territories" could properly describe Abkhazia or South Ossetia. I would think it'd be more appropriate to say something like Georgia loses control over the ethnically non-Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Or is the infobox text trying to say something else that I'm not grasping here (such as referring specifically to ethnic Georgian enclaves within the two breakaway regions)? Richwales ( talk) 21:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Such a claim requires a source, so we can see who says so. I looked at the two sources in today's timeline, and I don't see where this comes from. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think this comes under the same head as the section above: it's what a Georgian officer (unnamed) said the Russians (I think) would have done. We have enough trouble figuring out what the Russians did. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence below is in the timeline and seems so vague to me. Why did they begin an offensive? The reference mentions nothing about it beginning in the Kodori Valley nor does it mention that the 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians were a part of the retreat? Am I missing something obvious?
"Also on August 9, an offensive was begun by the military of the Republic of Abkhazia in the Kodori Valley, the only region of Abkhazia that was, before the war began, still in effective control of Georgian loyalists. By August 13, all of the remaining Georgian forces, including 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians, in the Kodori Valley had retreated to Georgia proper. [47]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmedinacorona ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It reads somewhat better now. I understood the why of it, it was just that the entry in the article seemed vague for someone coming to read it and having no understanding previously. It just kind of hangs there and I couldn't wrap my mind on how to make it more informative. Thx -- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 16:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am requesting that someone edit the article to include a "US Connections" (or appropriately similar) section to talk about things like how it is being related to the Cold War (Georgia and the Baltic States who have recently openly supported Georgia are former Soviet republics - http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/world/2008/08/13/todd.russian.threat.cnn ) the recent Poland-US defense deal (which has upset Russia - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561926.stm).
A good video with some good info: http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=/video/bestoftv/2008/08/08/pilgrim.david.satter.interview.cnn
Danielgleckler ( talk) 23:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I can't fix it cause of the protection, but there's a massive gap where the background is supposed to be. I assume this was an edit gone wrong or something. Andrew's Concience ( talk) 00:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The war is not ongoing, it ended when the ceasefire was signed. This is clearly a Russian victory and there are plenty of sources that describe it as such. Georgians lose the Kodori Gorge previously held by Georgia and the Abkhaz also took a peace of Georgia proper as well. There are many sources that describe Georgia's loses in Abkhazia. What I'm not yet clear about is whether Russia will give back parts of South Ossetia that Georgia had control over prior to the war so I've left it out of territorial changes. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 01:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Andrew's Concience ( talk) 02:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Conflict is definitely ongoing--anything else is premature. Publicus 03:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The NYTimes e-story has changed; as best I recall they were more definite about it at 17:30 UTC than they were when they went to press, probably about 02:00, but they don't mention Poti now. I have summarized the print edition, and will return to this tomorrow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia's mini Oskar Dirlewanger.
http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=1622 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[20] Detailed map and timeline of Russian air strikes in Georgia. Source: Georgian mInistry of Defense.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
New report by Human Rights Watch. [21] -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon." This should also be mentioned in the cluster bomb article.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw: bombing of Gori notbale enough, now? (Plus killing of journalists including the Dutch and injuring of the Israeli one and a lot of attention/reports in the media.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
That's all so strange. I'm absolutely sure, that the first time i've heard of cluster bombs, was report in russian media, accusing Georgians of their usage. There was video footage, showing unexploded allegedly western-made bomb found in Tskhinvali right after Russians took it. Wasn't that shown on some western media channel? And i didn't get it from the HRW report, but whether they've seen any evidence to russian cluster bombing, except photos and georgian doctors' statements? Cus, usage of cluster bombs for the purpose of destroying "warplanes producing factory" seems laughable to me - they're designed to take out uncovered people, not factory equipment safely hidden inside buildings. ETST ( talk) 12:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
http://monolith.irsrv.ru/war/ http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551 Maybe we could use some of them for the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.17.65 ( talk) 08:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw, RIA Novosti allows us to use its materials (including photos) for free in "public free reference, educational and country-research (страноведческих) resources". Alæxis ¿question? 12:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I asked Arkady Babchenko on the forum personally. Let's wait and see if he grants us permission to use the photos. -- Mrcatzilla ( talk) 13:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Vostok Battalion article requested. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, there's one already (covering also Zapad). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[22] -- Molobo ( talk) 08:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 09:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[23] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Longer video [24] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[25] -- Molobo ( talk) 09:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
We have basically four categories of civilians affected by the war (forgetting Abkhazia for the minute):
I think this is four different stories that deserve four sections (or three if Ossetians living in Georgia are not important enough) Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
"Georgians living in Georgia proper - they suffer from the bombing" No, they were also forced to flee (most of the refugees!) and their houses are looted and destroyed (like villages around Gori).
You also forgot the Georgians in Abkhazia (upper Kodori/Abkhazian AR), same thing as in SO.
And again, we hould stop pretending it's "South Ossetia war". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
How about a fifth category, Georgians living in Russia - "there are reports that they are harrassed and some" are trying "to take refuge in" Georgia but are being denied exit into Georgia by Russian authorities. Bdell555 ( talk) 10:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
And how about Russians living in Georgia (I mean citizens of Georgia)? They are harassed too. [26]-- Namenlos Ein ( talk) 11:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Do we need such section? We could use This Times article for the start Alex Bakharev ( talk) 09:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course we should use an outdated article which is contradicting itself!
"Georgia loses the fight with Russia, but manages to win the PR war"
Yes, thank you The Times. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Just a note for this conversation. Someone has to police name-calling and incivility. Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog and the unsigned person he was fighting with should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility Lihaas ( talk) 14:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
[28] It seems that Russian Army freely shoots at civilians in Georgia. -- Molobo ( talk) 10:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Мнение о ямадаевцах я изменил. Это не батальон, это семья. Остались только те, кто не ушел к Кадырову. Отношения типа «эй ты, иди сюда» здесь немыслимы. Много молодых. Все воюют великолепно. С одним проговорили полночи. Он рассказал, как забрали в заложники его жену, чтобы он перешел к Кадырову, и как держали в плену его самого. Пытали. Но много и тех, кто воевал в первую Чечню.
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Грузинских пленных никто не бьет, дают воду, еду, бушлаты на ночь. Это обычные мужики, резервисты. Они говорят, что за уклонение от мобилизации дают четыре года тюрьмы. Сдавать их собираются кому угодно, только не осетинам — убьют сразу.
The fact that they (not some abstract "Russia") treat Georgians humanely I would like more credible sources then Russian newspapers. Russia is a the bottom of Free Press index and its media are completely controlled by the authoritarian regime that rules the state(that includes fake opposition parties and publications created to control resistance)-- Molobo ( talk) 13:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC) "In the thick of the battle, I don't beleive the soldiers are ruminating on what exactly their behavior means in the diplomatic gargon" At least here every soldiers needs to learn international law regarding warfare(Geneva Convention and so on). And the Russian soldiers long ago stopped being peacekeppers and became one of the sides, which finally ended in invasion of Georgia(plans of which were revealed month ago).-- Molobo ( talk) 13:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Some of you is citing some facts that make me laugh. A video with Russian soldier with Chechen or Ossetian accent (belive me there is a big difference) trying to shoot a journalist / or media news where Russian troops occupated (!) Vladikavkaz (for those who doesn't know Vladikavkaz is part of Russia). Video and Media sources can be interpreted as you want. So, please turn on your brains before editing! Taamu ( talk) 12:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
What happened is that, after that Turkish TV video, the Russians took them to Vladikavkaz for interrogation, according to the International Press Institute. Bdell555 ( talk) 14:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The journalists had passed through an unmanned Georgian checkpoint into the South Ossetian capital There they were interrogated for a number of hours by Russian officials, asked to explain why they did not have Russian visas, and warned not to leave their rooms.
So it seems now Russia treats the Georgian territory as part of Russia demanding Russian visas to enter it.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no mentioning in this article, that Georgia starts it massive offence. The article says "ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down, and Georgia sent a large military force into South Ossetia which reached the capital Tskhinvali." But that doesn't mean, that is is Georgia attacked Osethinans first. Then there is no mentioning also, that Georgians attacked and sieged Russias peacemakers base. We should add them.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 12:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
As South Ossetia is not really where the war is taking place any more, but all over Georgia with the continued Russian attacks would this article be better off being renamed? Something along the lines of "Russian War on Georgia - 2008"? 81.149.82.243 ( talk) 13:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Previously the article (some time yesterday US Time) was stating something like Georgia lost control over the enthicly Georgian portions of South Ossetia and Abzahia[sp?]. Now it's merely stating "cease fire taking place". I think the former is more accurate; it's clear that before the major fighting began that Georgia was in effective control of large parts of South Ossetia and now that they aren't in effective control of any of South Ossetia. And meanwhile there has been quite a bit of dispute over weather or not Russia is actualy taking anything more than a highly literial meaning of cease fire (re: perhaps not firing but still advancing after the cease fire was signed). Jon ( talk) 13:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Not exactly, Carl. There WERE ethnic Georgian enclaves in Ossetia and Abkhazia, but now, most of those people either died or fled to Georgia. War is a terrible thing...-- SergeiXXX ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Please first learn to read before directing others to "check out". And if you don't know such basics about the conflict, what are you doing here in first place? "Anyone can edit", but come on. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm rather disappointed at the allegations and at the words like "couldn't shut up". I've never considered myself a propagandist. I do not see a reason to remain silent then I see that the matieral is being presented with a preferential connotations to either side of the conflict. We should abstain from such things here, and remain neutral. I quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008_South_Ossetia_war#The_wording_at_the_beginning - propagandist couldn't shut up about the demands of the "mention of the massive artillery-and-rocket shelling leading to the near-almost-destroyed city", "the heavy shelling laid the city in ruins," "the merciless wiping out of a city" and what not. But, not only the damage is limited, not only was inflicted by both sides during a regular battle, but also the rebels seem to be destroying "deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods" of the city right now, during "ceasefire". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
-- CopperKettle ( talk) 13:53, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for that. Should be rather "these who apparently believe in the propaganda without independent confirmation" or something. The Russian claim about "complete destruction" just turned out to be false/lies (just like the claims of "complete genocide", voiced by the Russian leaders on the highest level - and what it would even mean, that the Georgians just killed all Ossetians in the world overnight?). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The Kokoity government stated that they start a war with marauders and looters<:ref name=KokoytyKommersant/>.
This is ungrammatical, unclear, and has lost its source. I suspect that Kokoity is denouncing the Georgians, but since he was declaring this morning that "such things happen in war" when it is his people who are looting, I'm not sure how much weight to put on this. In any case, please clarify before restoring. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Can't we just call them breakaway Republics like CNN and save a lot of changes between unrecognized/seccesionist/and just regular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.140.56.121 ( talk) 17:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian and Ossetian troops opened fire on journalists on Thursday, excusing themselves by saying they did not know there were journalists in the car. [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35]
I think the article should mention this issue. Qubix 82.208.174.72 ( talk) 19:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
This section is biased and a violation of WP:UNDUE. Aside from Kremlin and Russia Today allegations, it has links to "Antiwar.com" and to a guy who runs a blog. This view of "media bias" is held by a small minority and does not deserve such a big section. I think it should be removed. Does anyone else agree? Ostap 18:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, moved here:
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin accused foreign media of pro-Georgian bias in their coverage of the ongoing conflict between Georgia and Russia over breakaway South Ossetia. "We want television screens in the West to be showing not only Russian tanks, and texts saying Russia is at war in South Ossetia and with Georgia, but also to be showing the suffering of the Ossetian people, the murdered elderly people and children, the destroyed towns of South Ossetia, and Tskhinvali. This would be an objective way of presenting the material," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said. Current Western media coverage of the events in the separatist republic is "a politically motivated version, to put it mildly," he said. [8]
On August 11, 2008, the government funded Russia Today TV channel accused CNN of presenting video footage made by Russia Today in South Ossetia as pictures of bombed Gori. [9]
Blogger James Poulos at The Guardian remarked that "As Russian columns advance into Georgia proper, columns in the American press fill with dire warnings and withering contempt for anyone so puerile as to ever trust a Russian... The anti-Russia lobby is giving the pro-Israel lobby a run for its money, hyping the settling of scores among two European, Orthodox Christian countries as more dangerous to the peace and security of the west than any clash of civilisations or jihad ever was... The anti-Russian reaction obscures the basic particularity of the Georgian situation, and all the history that informs it." [10]
Justin Raimondo at Antiwar.com, a anti-interventionist advocacy website, stated that "The anti-Russian bias of the Western media is really something to behold: 'Russia Invades Georgia,' 'Russia Attacks Georgia,' and variations thereof have been some of the choice headlines reporting events in the Caucasus, but the reality is not only quite different, but the exact opposite. Sometimes this comes out in the third or fourth paragraph of the reportage, in which it is admitted that the Georgians tried to 'retake' the 'breakaway province' of South Ossetia. The Georgian bombing campaign and the civilian casualties – if they are mentioned at all – are downplayed and presented as subject to dispute." [11]
What? Practically all of Russia's media is much more biased than this section claims the western media to be. This stuff here is only propaganda by Russia Today and RIAN (Russian state agencies) plus some bloggers' claims. --
Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (
talk)
18:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Good catch, too. This article needs a MAJOR cleanup overally. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
And so, it was reinstated again. This is SO STUPID. So we've got:
Yes, it's all MUST-BE MATERIAL IN SERRRRRIOUS ENCYCLOPEDIA (ANYONE CAN EDIT).
People, please keep removing this shit (I can't guard the article, besides there's this 3RR stuff). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Add it? Look at this Associated Press report. Count the number of inconsistencies in Russian communcations that we'd have to add. "Russian at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise", [Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov "denied that Russian troops were anywhere near [Poti]" vs We have seen more and more Russian troops coming into the area all day etc etc. A person could probably fill a page detailing apparent bias in Russian sources. This section needs to go. Bdell555 ( talk) 19:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=231738472&oldid=231738034 - and again reinstated, with the reason "This should stay" (almost as good as "Add it.").
"This should stay" WHY again? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 19:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Add it" referred to "the HRW report of village burning campaign which got zero space in the article". - Colfer2 ( talk) 19:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Some mainstream media have questioned the simple vision of the Georgian conflict. Charles King in the Christian Science Monitor: “The emerging narrative, echoing across editorial pages and on television news programs in the US, portrays Georgia as an embattled, pro-Western country struggling to secure its borders against a belligerent Russia…. Russia must be condemned for its unsanctioned intervention. But the war began as an ill-considered move by Georgia to retake South Ossetia by force. Saakashvili's larger goal was to lead his country into war as a form of calculated self-sacrifice, hoping that Russia's predictable overreaction would convince the West of exactly the narrative that many commentators have now taken up.” http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.html
Adjpro ( talk) 19:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Captain and dog, Could you clarify what you think I'm trying too hard to do and what is outdated? In my mind, I am trying to work with people on this list to come up with a good entry. Noting that media may be simplistic does not seem to suggest anything about Georgian genocide. I appreciated your comments asking for entries to be better written, but what you just wrote is too flip and self-involved to be understood.
For some reason, what I wrote in response to Lokiit above did not come through. I rejected LokiiT's use of the word propaganda, because it implied dishonesty -- the article he cited only suggests "PR."
Thank you
Adjpro ( talk) 20:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Human Rights Watch says there is "a massive Russia propaganda machine" at work here. What I don't understand is why editors who apparently consider themselves "left wing" are effectively trying to attack the credibility of human rights groups. Reading HRW's stories on Gitmo, it seemed to me they are more "left" than "right". HRW has advocated for abortion legalisation, gay rights, and the abolition of capital punishment. Can someone explain this apparent contradiction to me? Bdell555 ( talk) 20:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
"Winners — Vladimir Putin: he made it clear to the world that Georgia had been the aggressor and that his soldiers were intervening to stop “genocide” (...) Losers — Mikhail Saakashvili: the picture of the Georgian President cowering from a Russian helicopter said it all".
Does not compute - "interesting" indeed. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 00:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
You miss the point, obviously both Russian and Georgian media are biased, there is no point including claims to that effect, the question is whether outside media is biased.-- Miyokan ( talk) 02:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Four countries (de-facto): Russia, Georgia, Abkhasia and South Ossetia were directly involded in conflict. There is no sense to make any notion about their media bias - their bias is obvious. But the media of other countries (western or not) can be expected to be neutral. So, allegation of their bias is worth to be included. And... western media is considered 'independept' and 'neutral', aren't they?
Now about 'blogger'. The articla is placed at http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/11/georgia.russia1, while I can see separate button for blogs, and address is different and it looks different. Example: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/08/busted_how_america_turned_the.html. Please compare them: unlike previous, the second if clearly visible as blog. So, it looks to me that the text about Ossetia war bias is placed as article, not as blog. This means that notion about it should be restored because article in The Guardian on this topic is surely notable. This should be done because currently it's not neutral: I can see Russian (side of conflict) allegations vs. allegations of HRW (considered as neutral international organisation). Allegation on western bias placed in western media will fix the picture. 79.175.2.54 ( talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
No one could be treated as neutral instead of asia or africa... West wanted Georgia to enter NATO to do so they need to fulfill NATO restrictions. Country with unclear borders cant enter NATO. It is not an empty words, remember the reaction of Turkey after US officially acknowledge of Armenian Genocide, and remember that Georgia would be a great backup in that region. And US waste a lot of resource to reinforce Georgia army for that purpose. And Georgia fights with American weapons in this conflict! It would be very naive thinking that after that Bush simply agreed with Russian claims and express any discontent about Georgia. So blindly just for bush speech about occupation of Georgian city Poti wouldn't be a rational step. Dprohorova ( talk) 22:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
About media bias and propaganda war: I think everyone should watch this video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ ) from Fox News to understand how US media is waging information war against Russia in order to support its puppet Saakashvili. They cut any info that doesn't correspond with their scheme. They don't need to know what the 12-year old girl and her aunt have to say, they don't need to hear truth because they already have their own "truth". It's the kind of stuff that was well shown in "Wag the Dog". Watch that movie once again and you'll understand what is really happening in the western media now. - Jake7 ( talk) 10:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
PS. Dear user CopperKettle (if it was your who deleted this comment) - why the hell do you think that you can do such things without any notice and explanation?!! I ask administrators to ban this user for such actions! This is the Talk page!!! Which is ment to discuss issues, not to hide them! This video is the fact and is important in understanding why the "allegations of media bias" appeared! I thought it was enough that YouTube started to delete comments to this video in a large scale and seems to have freezed the counter so that this video couldn't rise up in popularity ratings so it could see more people. Now I see that someone wants that noone could here about this even on wikipedia! Where's the "freedom of speech" all the West was admired of?
PPS. And please, CopperKettle, do not erase this post this time, because I anyway will restore it! - Jake7 ( talk) 17:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
1. If you watch the link, you will find out that not only did she complete what she said- but it rolled for another couple of minuets afterwords.
2. The commercial break was nothing special- it actually seemed to have lasted longer then most small interviews FNC dose- i will guarantee you that whoever posted this doesn't watch FNC, nothing was out of place.
3. This is speculation on my part, but how dose a 12 year old girl tell the difference between two sides who wear the same uniform, who has been in Russia right after they fled- what proof do we have that they aren't being told what happened by the Russian state-run media?
4. more speculation, but since they quoted the Russian statistics (that have been challenged many times by independents) wouldn't it be same to assume they are just saying what they heard? In a combat zone you have no idea what is going on, its not until you are safe and looking at it from another prospective that you get a sense of what happened, and since the place they did that was in North Ossetia- they got a Russian state-media point of view. This seems to consider with their Russian quoted statistics.
I can guarantee that they didn't see the emblem on the side of the plane, and their have been questions raised about who exactly bombed the city- Georgian president claims Russia carpet bombed the city, while South Ossetia and Russia said Georgia shelled the city with artillery.
No doubt Georgia did damage to the city, heck we did damage to Baghdad and we are much more accurate than the Russians, but to imply Georgia was attacking civilians is going to far in reasonable assumptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat ( talk • contribs) 02:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, i can't watch this video at the moment, due to narrow inet bandwidth, but i, nevertheless, believe, that no media company would be stupid or careless enough to manifest its bias in such an obvious way, as an abruptly interrupted broadcast of ongoing material is. However, i want to compare my experience of watching media coverage on the Russian channels, with someone, who watched the western ones. First of all, in the russian news, since the very time the Russian troops entered Tskhinvali(but long before the Georgian government admitted it), there were numerous video reports containing interviews with ossetian civilians on what have happened to them. There, i wanna cite this ( http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117990468.html?categoryid=14&cs=1) article (used somewhere in the refs of main page), which purpose was to disprove western media bias: "During the past few days, Russia’s state television" — russia-don't-really-have-any-freedom-of-speech crap removed — "has been running rolling news updates on the heavy fighting, interspersed with highly emotive photos of ethnic Russian refugee women and children shown to the accompaniment of classical music." Well, what can i say, of course, it's possible, that i could have missed such kind of reports, despite my intent monitoring of the topic, but, nevertheless, this kind of description looks to me like a some foreigner's idea of what a dumb russian propaganda might be looking like. The reports i saw, while certainly being "highly emotive", were
The question is: was any footage from these reports shown in western media, the most remarkable one being the footage of the French President Nicolas Sarkozi himself, amidst the mob of Ossetian Tskhinvali citizens, trying to comfort a crying old woman, which btw was telling him "the same old fairytales" of Georgians sweeping basements, killing elderly woman and 2 kids with tank etc., and pleading him for EU-protection of S.Ossetia from Georgia? If not, then maybe someone will be able to find any links to them? The other thing i experience, is some derision in russian media concerning Saakashvili's western-directed cries for help, especially various staged video like "Tskhinvali under Georgian control"(where Georgian guys shoot at an unarmed citizen at the distance), "Saakashvili's public statement on invasion by Russia"(where he speaks in english, despite the fact, that hardly many georgians understand it), "Saakashvili under Attack"(where he cowers from nowhere to be heard russian bomber plane, while passing-by regular sitizens aren't doing anything of the sort) and so on. His press statements are also being laughed at, because, as it seems after listening to russian news, their only purpose is to frighten ordinary Georgian to death, with "russians are getting nearer with every moment, but i'll defend Tbilisi till i die" rant. Most notable being one of his statements about "50 russian tanks on the border of Gori", which was disproved by his own, Georgian Ministry Of Defence official stating "these were not 50 Russian tanks, but 3 Georgian BTRs". Maybe, someone can find some links on these? All in all, can anyone provide any similar details on western media coverage and impression of what's going on implied by it? I think, it will be very interesting, at least, and can be incorporated in the wikipedia article's media bias section, maybe in form of references to broadcast schedules or something. Ah, i've nearly forgotten, speaking about "Russian Accuracy", i have also heard a statement from russian military commander, that, in this conflict, they're using only precise-strike armaments "which, of course, cost much more, than conventional ones, but do not endanger lives of civilians". That, for the time being, concludes the list of news, i feel, didn't make it through translation barrier. I'm really sorry, guys, that i gave no links here, i just can't put much more effort in it right now. =(( ETST ( talk) 09:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where to put this, but the picture of 'Georgian Rocket Launchers' from Novosty on the front page is almost certainly Russian rocket launchers. It's generally agreed that the Georgian attack on Tskhinvalli occurred at night and by the early morning they were in the city. So why is the picture of the supposed bombardment of Tskhinvali nearer to midday? If the attack was a surprise, its unlikely that Russia photographers would be on hand behind the lines to film Georgian artillery. Moreover, the damage patterns in Tskhinvali as described by Human Rights Watch is not consistant with bombardment from a multiple launch rocket system, but is much more consistant with conventional artillery. If this is Georgian artillery in the photograph, then its almost certainly not firing at Tskhinvalli, and the claim from Russian press that it is makes the whole picture that much more suspect. The AP has shown pictures of Russian armored columns containing large numbers of BM-21 'Grad' launchers (I'm fairly certain this is the type shown in the photo), so we know that the Russia military is using those weapons in theater. Yes, Georgia does have BM-21's in theater and may have even used them at some point and maybe even on Tskhinvalli (I've seen nighttime video footage that is more convincing), but given the origin of the picture it is far more likely to be Russian rockets in the photograph. - Celebrim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.115.19.254 ( talk) 19:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was able to create a scrolling reference box for the reference section. If this causes havoc with your browser please revert the edit. I did this as an attempt to reduce the article display size for better viewing.-- Jmedinacorona ( talk) 06:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
BLASTED USER: I would call this entire thing a fiscal disturbance according to the factors of 'western involvement', today it occured to me, that this was message board particle as well --- saying if the internal-infuriation gets like this it will -- then there was the presidential satire of the number of presidents in russia outnumbering the number of people in georgia all of whcih remember oddly a diff'rent strokes reference, because of this behaviour -- I say let 'em crash... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.238.188 ( talk) 21:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've had it. Someone is repeatedly removing my edits, made in good faith, and is replacing them with poorly written pro-Russian propaganda. I'm no fan of Georgia, but when the only sources in a section are lurid, state-sponsored Russian media tales of Georgian atrocities, the section needs change. I added to the section about humanitarian conditions in South Ossetia the NPOV tag and the Human Rights Watch report discounting the (obviously grossly exaggerated) Russian statistics. The former was removed, the latter watered down and placed at the bottom. What is this?
Regnum, the mouthpiece of the Russian government, is used as a source in a war between Russia and Georgia? Human Rights Watch, an infinitely more credible source, is downplayed and ignored? This was my original paragraph, added below the South Ossetian government casualty figure:
This is the "new and improved" (i.e., vague and badly written) version, conveniently placed at the bottom of the page:
Let's move to the section on Georgia, shall we?
"Ossetian fighters" needs quotation marks while "a Georgian task force entered the city and burned a family alive in their house, and that a column of fleeing refugees was attacked by Georgians" does not? The Times is a perfectly reliable source, and there is no reason to think that the people who were going to kill him (he was saved by his journalist status) were not South Ossetians.
There are no allegations here. It is now a fact, confirmed by many reputable and consistent sources (CNN, the Times, AP, Humans Rights Watch) that the South Ossetians are looting Georgian villages and occasionally burning houses. THESE ARE NOT ASSERTIONS MADE BY THE GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT - THESE ACCOUNTS ARE COLLECTED ON THE GROUND BY INDEPENDENT OBSERVERS.
And now we come to the most delicious part of all this:
In case the reader doesn't understand that these are completely false allegations, that there are quotes around the "disputed allegations" (note the quotes!) is spelled out right before! How convenient! "Ossetian man" - well, I'm sure the Georgians are planting villagers who speak Ossetic in the face of dozens of Russian tanks just to fool Human Rights Watch! And, of course, the claims of the "guardian" (capitalization is so passé!) are "impossible to verify", but those of the Russian media-government are not only fully verifiable but in fact are to be relied upon as central sources! And how! aristotle1990 ( talk) 02:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html
as Source 11 supposedly states that Russia has lost; "74 Russian troops killed, 171 wounded and 19 missing in action" but the article has no mention of casualties other then to say that CNN could not verify the conflicting reports on casualties. Please can someone amend this article. This is yet again another example of an edit to Wikipedia which is unsourced which reflects poorly on the Russians ... hardly NPOV is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senor Freebie ( talk • contribs) 05:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
During a visit Tuesday arranged by the Russian government, journalists from The Associated Press and other Western media were escorted into the city aboard armored vehicles.
Reporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.
The heaviest damage from the recent fighting appeared to be around Tskhinvali's government center. More than a dozen buildings in the area were little more than scorched shells.
Several residential areas seemed to have little damage, except for shattered windows, perhaps from bomb concussions.
Russian army agitprop tour backfires, as little-to-no evidence of their wild claims:
Army Col. Igor Kononenko showed off a civilian neighborhood, once part of the old Jewish quarter, that sustained extensive damage. He said that was proof the Georgians targeted civilians.
"This street is very small, tanks can't go through here," he said, arguing there was no military reason for the Georgian military to shell the neighborhood.
However, the district stands on a hillside in the line of fire between Georgian rocket position and Tskhinvali's government center, located around the university. Some civilians in the area conceded Georgian fire at the government building might have fallen short.
At the regional hospital, doctors said the patients were moved to the basement during Georgia's bombardment of the city, and had to do without light, water or toilets. The dungeon-like rooms still stank of sewage Tuesday, while sheets and bandages were stained with blood.Dr. Tina Zhakarova, who said the hospital had treated 224 patients during the fighting, called the Georgian assault on the city an act of ethnic cleansing.
Noting the medical facility had been damaged, she held out a handful of shrapnel to reporters. Doctors can protect people from disease, she said. "How can we protect them against this?"
But from the outside, the hospital appeared to have only light damage, either from bullets or shrapnel. Most of the windows were shattered.
Russian army officers said a Georgian missile pierced the hospital's roof and caused damage not visible on the outside. But they refused to show reporters the destruction, saying it was not safe.
Maybe the best:
Outside town, dozens of houses burned along the main road. A Russian officer said some of the buildings had been burning for days and others were damaged the previous night during an airstrike by a single Georgian plane.
When an AP photographer rode through the same villages Monday morning, none of the houses was burning. The fires only began Monday night, more than 24 hours after the battle for the city was over
Heavy damage in Tskhinvali, mostly at gov't center
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny. Much (much) more damage (UN: "most destroyed city on earth" [37]), many more casualties, much more bigger city too, so I guess you'll be totally outraged. Right?
One sentence also bolded with no comment. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Now, let's see what the other journalists in the group say about a trip with Colonel Kononenko (btw, the whole story turns out to be just like the fairy tale of "Jeningrad"). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
British The Guardian:
Several truck-mounted rocket launchers were a sign of Moscow's intent to hold Tskhinvali at all costs. Approaching Tskhinvali, the group of reporters was transferred to armoured personnel carriers because of the risk of fire from Georgian snipers, said the Russian officers leading the trip.
In villages close to the city there were many burned out houses, and others were still ablaze. In the city itself it was clear that claims the city had been levelled to the ground by artillery were exaggerated. However, it was also evident that while some neighbourhoods were intact, there were patches of terrible destruction.
Some residential areas were hit during the fighting ("patches" of destruction, including one "whole street of 100 meters" just south of the gvt centre - the same one AP said might be hit by accident because of ground elevation), others not at all ("intact"). In all, Russian claims "clearly exaggerated". Nearby Georgian villages are looted and burning. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
AP Google update of the original AP report also contains this:
An AP photographer saw irregular troops near burning homes in ethnic Georgian villages, and there was evidence of looting in those areas.
At an Ezeit electronics store with smashed windows, a few appliances stood outside, but most of the stock seemed to be gone.
Nearby, a man in dark glasses, camouflage and a Kalashnikov assault rifle drove a tractor hauling what looked like a large refrigerator partly visible under a blanket. A car went down the road with two new satellite dishes on top. [38]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately the Russians aren't letting western journalists into the Gori area (never mind South Ossetia) to see what's been going on there: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia4 Bdell555 ( talk) 11:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, BBC.
As the Russian military moved deeper into Georgian territory on Wednesday, thousands of people continued to flee towards Tbilisi.
It is a mass exodus that Georgia's capital cannot cope with. Many schools and kindergartens across the city are full of displaced people. (...) The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify. But despair and fear is, unmistakably, on the rise here. (...) "The government says only 120 people have been killed, but it is not true," she said.
"In Gori, I saw lorries full of bodies being delivered to the hospital every day. So many people have died, why is the government lying?"
Georgians fear revenge attacks
Saying about the claims of the Georgian government downplaying the real number of the killed Georgians - it probably does, as I already wrote elsewhere (in opposition to the Russian claims of "total genocide" and what not). It may be a lie but a different kind of lie, one not sparking what BBC called "revenge attacks".
Also, there was a discussion ealrier here on talk page about that South Ossetian militiamen should be called "army". It's not an army, an army has a clear chain of command (and accountibility), and they're bands of armed looters who go around in civilian cars and tractors - and doing looting. It's a militia(s) or at best paramilitary, unruly irregulars. It's not army and the "South Ossetian military" may be maybe these 3,000 guys with Russian tanks at the first day of war, and not everyone and his brother handed-out some kind of uniform, dark glasses and a rifle and told to avange "genocide". "Volunteer" is not the right word - US Army is volunteer, that is professional (as opposed to, say, the mostly conscript Russian). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait, I thought our job here is to post facts and not POVaculate prematurely. Captain, I am a supporter of democracy and freedom as well, but you seem to be going overboard, how about you tone down a little? 68.151.34.161 ( talk) 09:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia informed Georgia's Interior Ministry that its troops will remain deployed around the city of Gori, near South Ossetia, for as many as three days, ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said... In Gori, Russian troops are transporting seized Georgian military equipment ( which is supplied by the United States)... [39] 24.0.64.87 ( talk)
True, I agree with the first post as for the second (part), technically accurate however it's obvious that that are looking for anything western and more advanced as history would state the information should acknowledge Russians known history of "acquiring" the West's technologies by what ever means possible, one more report:
As it turns out I was correct:
I'm concerned about adding all of the material in this report because it may increase the amount of material discussing the humanitarian impact to undue weight. Perhaps just the section below, which appears to mention the worst of the problems, and/or select elements from the rest of the report should be incorporated:
.... Russian officers at the checkpoint told Human Rights Watch that the road closure was due to the massive looting taking place in Georgian villages along the road.
However, moving back from Tskhinvali to Java on the evening of August 13, Human Rights Watch researchers saw, for the second day running, houses that were ablaze in several Georgian villages. They had clearly just been torched. One counterintelligence officer of the South Ossetian forces claimed to Human Rights Watch that: “We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they [the Georgians] can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.”
The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man... http://www.humanrightswatch.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm Bdell555 ( talk) 12:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. She said her hospital was the only clinic treating the wounded in Tskhinvali. The doctor said there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded and added that all of the wounded were later transferred to the Russian Ministry of Emergencies mobile hospitals in South and North Ossetia. As of August 13, there were no wounded left in the Tskhinvali hospital.
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
It's best to site sources from both sides. Western related media is biased.
-- What Max —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, Human Rights Watch saw several buildings that bore traces of heavy ammunition as if fired from tanks at close range. There was some evidence of firing being directed into basements, locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter.
One thing:
At a crossroads in the north of the city there was evidence of a fierce fire fight. Three destroyed Georgian tanks were slewed across the road, a mess of ash and twisted metal. The heavy turret of one tank had been tossed across the street, falling through a shop front. Nearby on the ground lay a human foot. (...) "Those tanks in the street, we hit them with rocket propelled grenades from the basement." [42]
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 12:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
German TV has a short video clip from behind Russian lines. The German speaking reporter alleges ethnic cleansing. Bdell555 ( talk) 16:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Please note that Captain Obvious is violating Wikipedia Guidelines by deleting messages he doesn't want to see ( 1, 2) and adding clearly provocative comments to them. At the same time he allows himself to write such things as
I hope you Russia apologists will shut up already. It was all just propaganda and you were duped by this provocation. But if you want to see "Russian city" destroyed, check Grozny.
I think it's a clear violation of those policies he himself tries to force on others. Moreover, he shows that attitude for quite a time now. Wikipedia is not a forum nor is this a place for people to force their POV. Rules are written for everybody. Please do something about him. -- 78.107.85.14 ( talk) 14:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
There has been much discussion of both sides' justification of their actions, but little as to their reasons for them. I think it would give a greater insight into events if some motivation were suggested. For example, one media outlet suggested that Russia is "building a soviet state".