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Well, since Russia's real objective is to reach the pipelines and probably cut them off, so Europe would not have any alternative to Russian oil, can the article contain more information in this sense? Also another objective might be a show of force do discourage small countries who border Russia to join the NATO. The article does not mention these problems, so I think there is a NPOV problem here...
Please do not remove anything without consensus. Several editors edited this section and only one removed it. If you think that they must be among other casualties, move them there, but DO NOT REMOVE AT ALL please. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 23:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed a statement from a tabloid "journalist" as it was both off topic for the section in which it appeared and because, as a tabloid, there are questions as to the statement's credibility. It effectively alleged war crimes were being committed by the Georgians and, frankly, I think that ought to be better sourced and verified if such claims are going to be included. croll ( talk) 00:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've spoken with an admin. If the edit war won't stop I'll propose this article for full protection. Every non-minor edit should be discussed on this talk page first and reasonably supported. If people spent their time implementing something what was agreed on here then it's ridiculous to delete it without any discussion. I repeat myself, this is not sandbox of 1 or 2 people. toxygen ( talk) 23:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Please do not add him to infobox. Vladimir Putin is only a prime-minister at now. Commander-in-Chief is Dmitry Medvedev. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 23:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
he is the de facto commander, medvedev was handpicked by him purposely to be his puppet, AND he has met with russian generals in the region right after flying home from beijing. ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk) 02:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
He is the de facto leader of Russia. And is calling the shots in this conflict. From the BBC, "Russian PM Vladimir Putin seems to be taking the decisions" [1] LCpl ( talk) 03:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
From the TimesOnline: "The fighting in Georgia has answered the question that world leaders have been asking since Vladimir Putin stepped down as President this year: who runs Russia? The answer, of course, is Mr Putin." [2] LCpl ( talk) 03:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Erm... Great Britain, Russia.. two completely different nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.116.199.218 ( talk) 04:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I dont think the local military command requires the President or Prime Minister's permission to do anything, he already has permission to be in Georgian territory so far as required to protect the people and territory of S Ossetia and Abkazia. .
202.92.40.8 (
talk) 13:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There no citation attached to the ref tag. As a result, the references are showing an error. ' Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named turkish-journalist-was-wounded'. -- Patrick ( talk) 23:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
That was my doing. It is taken care of. -- Adoniscik( t, c) 17:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
See video with him, time near 02:45. His name like Winston Faderly or may be Winston Faderley, he says he's from Alaska, all his crew were killed except him. He is in Tskhinvali hospital basement on video. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 23:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
If it wasn't so difficult uploading images (with working permission), the page could now have over 600 to chose from (in my possession). However, I could upload a couple of screenshots from the Norwegian news channel TV2 Nyhetskanalen's coverage of it (I have recorded from Friday, Saturday and Sunday), so there could be some OK images until better photos become available.
Secondly, I might be able to help with the Georgian OOB - for a starter, Military of Georgia page has a list of the army's formation. Formations in direct vicinity of the fighting is 1st Infantry Brigade, Separate Tank Battalion, Artillery Brigade. Of course it is important to stay critical, but all these formation's participation makes sense, as tanks and artillery were used.
I might be able to find more at a better source specializing on nation's armed forces.
Realismadder ( talk) 00:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What does that mean? Are the 100 civilians? If they are, why the double standard of having the thousands of other civilian deaths in a 'general' section? -- Leladax ( talk) 00:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Because the 2000 is probably inflated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 00:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Has it been confirmed that it was a TU-22M Backfire that was shot down as I heard that the Russian military claimed it was a TU-22 Blinder (presumably an elint/recon variant) that was shot down? 192.136.16.3 ( talk) 01:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
→ no idea which version of Backfire was shot down, but I have info on weapon used to bring it down: Russian made SAM S300 (nato reporting name - Vega) 87.206.61.201 ( talk) 03:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
How can you call wikipedia an independent encyclopedia after publishing this article? Everybody who reads it PLEASE pay attention to the references ALL OF THEM ARE RUSSIAN! and please just think about one thing: why Russian military base is in Georgia? Would for example USA like russian soldiers in the states? and those so called peacekeepers are recognized only by russians themselves, Please google russian peacekeepers to see their equipment.
There is several articles and frequent updates by Civil Georgia if you look in the references. The peacekeepers consist of a contigent of Georgian, Russian and Ossetian troop and are UN-mandated and monitored. I can't answer the military base one, but I answered what I can, cheers! Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Most media about this conflict are russian, because the russians have a lot of media in this area and the russian gouverment is interested in showing the world their point of view. Western or other foreign journalists could show the other side of the conflict, but they are simply not als well established in the area as russian. They need time to gather and confirm information. Until then, we have to take what we can get. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.52.252.165 ( talk) 05:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I have received meesages that Gori is under attack, I know there has been airstrikes but I mean ground attacks. People claim Russia has started the Gori offensive. Is there any link to prove this, because it seems very important because US troops are stationed there and in leads to th East/West Highway. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
In Gori was only one bomb, but this bomb hit an armament depot near apartments. About 60 civilians were wounded. Ru magister ( talk) 17:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the sections between the lead and the background: "Russian Stance", "Georgian Stance", "International factors", etc. should be moved elsewhere. They are breaking the flow of the article. Putin's quote in the Russian stance is a some sort of evaluation of the conflict. It probably should go to other leader's opinions. "Georgian stance" is basically a duplicate of the lead. I do not think we need it in that form nor that this is the Georgian official narrative Alex Bakharev ( talk) 02:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The article is being increasingly dominated by the Russian nationalistic POV and is turning into a slur against Georgia. Wikipedia should be a neutral source. The introduction of this article is written in the style which would better fit Mr. Zhirinovksy's website. The article also lacks the information about the Russo-Ukrainian marine stalemate. Also, the U.S. accuses Russia of using the South Ossetia crisis as a pretext to overthrow the elected Georgian government. Please add these and other details from international media outlets. Eg, http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 02:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Under "August 11:"
"Western Officials again reiterated there fears that Russia..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.150.190.50 ( talk) 03:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Something like that...just go ahead and fix it yourself when you see it. 71.225.97.173 ( talk) 05:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the parts of the article where diplomatic efforts, statements, negotiations, UNSC meetings, etc, should get their own section. The timeline is a bit uncomfortable to read the way it is now. Sarejo ( talk) 03:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The following text about advanced preparation of Russian forces for the attack has been deleted:
On August 4, five battalions of Russian 58th Army were moved to the vicinity of Roki Tunnel that links South Ossetia with North Ossetia [1]
should we add a battle box since russia is attacking Gori and advancing?
Yes, I think they already shot preliminary tank blasts and artillery, I could be wrong. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 03:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Fixed title of this talk 216.36.153.161 ( talk) 06:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There is information coming in that an engagement is taking place on the road leading into Gori. A new page should be made. A link called The battle for Gori? under Aug 10 or 11. [9] Youtube of BCC also shows Russians targeting Civilian and/or non-military targets.
Please be mindful of Russian Intelligence Cyber attacks concerning the NPOV.-- 68.32.187.180 ( talk) 08:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone make a article about the Russian advance onto Goir? And what happen too the navel battle bettwen The black fleet and the Georgian navy? -- 66.229.12.186 ( talk) 13:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Ossetian rebels are "volunteers." Georgian irregulars are "American mercenaries." Georians "invade", Russians are "peacekeepers." What a bunch of hogwash -- it's impossible to even find a scintilla of truth in this article. There is a massive Russian disinfoprmation campaign going on on the network and this is just part of it. Letters to major newspapers and their article comments; blog comments; Wikipedia, etc. All just part of a vast and pre-planned effort to foist a Russian nationalist POV onto the net.
Shame on WIkipedia -- this whole article needs to be suspended. Volunteer editors cannot hope to keep up with internet mercenaries and government-sponsored data attacks. Kcmurphy88 ( talk) 03:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
user:LokiiT has just removed the info on the separatists' attack on pro-Georgian Ossetian administration. The overzealous pro-Kremlin users seem to be in control of this article. Please restore this valid information. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 03:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The most funny thing is that Georgia shows itself everywhere as a victim of Russia's Imperialism. No one even knows that Georgia broke diplomatic discussion a couple of days before the whole thing started. Same thing with actions, after breaking the discussions Georgia sent their troops to South Ossetia to "definitely" show Ossetians where is their "place" in Georgia. South Ossetia called for Russian help only. Time to stop Georgian propaganda either. P.S. USA and Israel did help Georgia before and druing the war. -- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 03:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
concrete and specific suggestions have been made, but they have been downplayed. The information on the seccessionists' attack on pro-Georgian Ossetian officials have been deleted without any explanation. The article is unbalanced as the majority of cited sources are Russian. The "X.ru claims..." wording is not enough as each of such claims should be balanced by what a Georgian or international source says. B. Lynn Pascoe, the Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs, noted yesterday that the UN lacked information because of cyber-attacks on Georgian websites. [10] And the summary box mentions only Putin's version of refugees in North Ossetia, ignoring the data provided by the UN commissioner responsible for refugees. [11]-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 04:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 04:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The overview section needs inline references just like the rest. If it's written twice, it needs to be referenced twice. Furthermore, the current form of the section reads a bit like original synthesis. Superm401 - Talk 04:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
1) Do not tell us or complain us media is bias. Every media is bias in some sense. Do not pretend you are more impartial than the media. Just put the name of the author/date/where whenever making a reference so reader can decide it, not you decide it. 2) If the content is bias point out where it is. For example, ask for a UN resolution number if you doubt that there is UN resolution had endorsed peacekeeping. If there is POV point it out. Be precise and do not be bold. -- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 04:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I've put two genocide/ethic cleansing accusations into the article, one by each side. They should both be retained, as this issue has received significant coverage (and speculation):
{{
cite news}}
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ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)-- Superm401 - Talk 04:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"Background", paragraph one: "Saakashvili proposed a peace deal under which South Ossetia . . . " Pls change this to: "The President of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, proposed a peace deal . . . ", and hypertext his name. Sstteevvee ( talk) 04:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
LokiT has removed the UN refugee count, saying it is days old. He notes that their is a replacement from a BBC story. The problem is that new figure doesn't break down refugees by ethnicity. I'll put it in the infobox for now. Superm401 - Talk 04:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 04:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There are several media reports that 4000 Russian troops ( naval infantry?) made an amphibious landing in Abkhazia. [12] [13] Other media said the naval task force included the guided missle cruiser Moskva, the "patrol boat" Smetlivy (actually a Kashin class destroyer) and three three large landing craft. [14] [15] [16] Another report says "includes three amphibious assault vessels, two anti-submarine warfare vessels, a reconnaissance ship, two minesweepers, two missile boats, a missile cruiser and a variety of aircraft". [17] 203.7.140.3 ( talk) 04:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed a statement claiming an Israeli involvement. The only source was DEBKA, which is not by any stretch of imagination a reliable source (see also the Wikiarticle Debka.com. There was also a link to a Russian language news report at РБК Daily, but Israel is not mentioned once in the article. All editors here you should really be more careful with their citations. Голубое сало ( talk) 04:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Should we create already article Russia-Georgia war per this and other sources? Biophys ( talk) 05:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Sweden has evoked the memory of Adolf Hitler in condemning Russia's attacks on Georgia over the breakaway region of South Ossetia, saying the protection of Russians there did not justify the assault. "No state has the right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of the state," ... "Attempts to apply such a doctrine have plunged Europe into war in the past... And we have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Foreign Minster Carl Bildt said in a statement. The Local -- Hapsala ( talk) 04:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"I don't recall Poland (...) destroying cities in Poland that wanted to be part of Germany." Well, there was Bloody Sunday (1939) in Bydgoszcz. But anywyay, I believe the comment was related to the 1938 Sudetenland crisis, followed by the German occupation of Czechoslovakia on the pretext of defending the ethnic Germans there ( Volksdeutsche) from the Czech persecution. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Comments from the west are irrelevant, we may as well quote nuclear phsysicists as quote politicians from USA, sweden, australia... we may put these quotes at the end in "stupid comments from stupid people"
BlueSalo removed Israel from the order of battle section and combatant statements. His explanation was "unsourced statement, see talk page" but I don't see what part is unsourced ( Debka clearly provides all the info), nor do I see any comments by BlueSalo here. I've put the info back in, and would appreciate an explanation.
BlueSalo is still claiming it's unsourced, but as far as I can tell that's not true. Superm401 - Talk 05:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw, the claim like this (20 or so times more killed than wounded) is truly laughable. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I checked and the claims of "90 wounded and 1,600 killed" are still in Google search but strangly not in the articles themselves. So I removed this. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Has south Ossetia made a statement about its dead combatants? I think they have put the civvies and combatants into 1 pot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 10:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes it's more than 1500 killed civils, and many uncounted ones is still laying under ruins. And it is not f***ing laughable! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.203.168.97 ( talk) 03:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The Chicago Tribune (and other sources) are carrying some remarks by United States Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey and retired General Wesley Clark. [20]
Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey was asked whether U.S. military intervention was on the table. "Our focus is on working with both sides," he replied, "with the Europeans and with a whole variety of international institutions and organizations to get the fighting to stop, get the two sides disengaged and get people back to the status quo ante, which we define as the 6th of August."
He added that if the reports of Russian ships moving to blockade Georgia were true, it would be very troubling.
"We would be ... very, very concerned if, in fact, there is ground action inside of Georgia proper, that is outside of these areas of Abkhazia and Ossetia," Jeffrey said.
In the face of that, there appeared little the U.S. and its allies could do to, such as extending NATO combat air patrols to Georgia, as they were in 2002 to deter Russian interference in Lithuania. "There are already Russian aircraft over Georgia, so the chances of direct engagement [between Russian and NATO aircraft] is very high," retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark said.
Should any of that be included? JCDenton2052 ( talk) 06:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that we should delete this section and just wait to the end of conflict for the official numbers, other way we have laughable and propaganda informations. Section is not even upgraded and as far as I know everyday during the war someone dies or is wounded.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 06:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
They are the official numbers. Btw, everyone don't reinstate the other side's claims (like the Georgian about how many Russia lost). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the 1400 number: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL857385920080808?pageNumber=3&virtualBrandChannel=0 -- Geleonit ( talk) 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Media reports now say 9000 Russian troops and 350 armoured vehicles in Abkhazia alone. [21] [22] [23]
Deployed ships from the Black Sea Fleet are reported to include the guided missile cruiser Moskva and Kashin class destroyer Smetlivy. [24] [25] [26] [27]
203.7.140.3 ( talk) 06:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Several Russian [28] [29] and English [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] language sources are reporting that Turkey has deployed naval elements off the coast of Georgia. Should this be included? JCDenton2052 ( talk) 06:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently a regiment of Vostok troops, loyal to Yamadayev, had been dispatched to South Ossetia, in order to fight alongside the Russian Federal troops, against Georgia. Here is the source: http://www.life.ru/video/4966 a video from a russian news agency. On an armored vehicle one can clearly spot a Chechen flag flying, and there are also bits of chechen speech, and the whole article itself relates to this story. I guess this can be an addition to the summary box, the sides of the conflict. There are also reports from kommersant newspaper, that some troops had been already spotted by South Ossetian refugess, engaging georgian troops. Here are the sources: http://www.kommersant.ru/news.aspx?NewsID=131308 http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1010079 Daud.fr ( talk) 06:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Not "loyal to Yamadayev" - the Hero of Russia Sulim Yamadayev was just declared federally wanted in Russia.(!) Those "loyal to Yamadayev" are with him wherever he is is hiding now. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 07:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Северная окраина Цхинвали. Из разорванного трубопровода хлещет вода, заливающая прилегающие улицы. Навстречу нам едет БТР с надписью "Чечня. Восток. Ямадаев". На броне — восемь хорошо экипированных бойцов. Они поднимают руку в приветственном жесте. Это, как и белые ленточки, опознавательный знак.
regardless of his status, i guess his troops yet remain loyal to him.
Don't wanna be annoying here...but found another source here
http://www.utro.ru/articles/2008/08/11/758662.shtml, a russian news agency, which cites that apart from the Vostok and Zapad Units (the both should be added to the order of the battle section...someone deleted Vostok from it recently...??), which are already involved in fighting, the Commander of the Kadyrov controlled South unit, has organised a detachment of Chechen volunteers (not the chechen soldiers of Russian Army, but actual volunteers), from the of republic security forces loyal to Kadyrov. According to the article, there are around 600 volunteers, as the commander of the South Battalion, Anzor Magomadov said: "Under my command there are now 600 men, 200 are ready to leave in a matter 5 minutes, the other 400 will be ready in one hour".
The same article mentions 20 volunteers from Karachaevo-Cherkessia, and hundreds from Dagestan. I guess some of the moderators could actually expand the section on the volunteers.
Daud.fr (
talk) 14:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's write FAQ for newcomers, like on Russian talk page?
For example:
etc.
-- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 06:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
WP is just too popular these days. There are too many editors here, too many different agendas, and this article is already too long. I think this article should be locked for admins only. But before it's locked we should remove some of the cruft and weasel words. -- Tocino 06:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
You can't say that they are or not separatist. According to your sentence Kosovo and Chechen people are separatist too. -- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 07:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It's a War. Of course there are two side. People are being destroyed. I think if we make sure that all of our sources are documented, we will be able to sort through it after the dust of the bombings has settled. Jason3777 ( talk) 07:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, please lock this down to admins only, and even then be on guard. It's not trustworthy if it's open, it's just going to get propaganda machines from both side spouting their version of events. Mullingitover ( talk) 00:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The contents of the article should be edited to provide more accurate information. The first paragraph is a large run on sentence. The 2008 South Ossetia war is a military conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia which gain military support from Russia, that began in August 2008 following several days of heavy fighting between the Georgian army and South Ossetian militias. Georgia launched a surprise military operation to recapture control of the unrecognised Republic of South Ossetia, a breakaway region of Georgia, saying the action was in response to separatist attacks on Georgian villages. South Ossetia denied the attacks occurred.
Should read more like this:
The 2008 South Ossetia Conflict is a military conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia, and Abkazhia. Georgia gained independence from Russia in 1992, while South Ossetia and Abkhazia, smaller territories in Georgia, have remained close to Russia and are backed by Russia. The Conflict began in August 2008 after Georgia launched a military offensive to clear the South Ossetia region of separatists.
Whether or not I have the facts in a neutral term, the wording in the first sentence is incorrect.
I agree, good point. I changed it. -- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 07:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It says in the article that ru sites can be accessible again, but I surely can't here in Tbilisi. So Reuters are wrong there. Narking ( talk) 07:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As I know word separatist (Russian: сепаратист) sound negative in Russian language, but in English language it is absolutely neutral word meaning those soldiers who fights for separation of their country. And nothing more. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 07:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
From English Wikipedia :
"Separatism refers to the advocacy of a state of cultural, ethnic, tribal, religious, racial or gender separation from the larger group, often with demands for greater political autonomy and even for full political secession and the formation of a new state. Depending on their political situation and views, groups may refer to their organizing as independence, self-determination, partition or decolonization movements instead of, or in addition to, automatic, separatist or secession movements. While some critics may equate separatism and religious segregation, racial segregation or sexual segregation, separatists argue that separation by choice is not the same as government enforced segregation and serves useful purposes."
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 07:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Why in the losses section it doesn't show Georgian losses in tanks and Airplanes?
(UTC)
[37] - 11 Georgians are captured in South Ossetia [38] - A Georgian ship is sunk by Russian fleet, unknown number of sailors died [39] - A Georgian plane (SU-25) was downed by Russian forces [40] - At the end of this article there is info about 12 Georgian tanks that were destroyed, the info is confirmed by couple other statments.
In the section of OPPOSING FORCES is written that "152mm SpGH DANA self-propelled guns and RM-70 Multiple rocket launchers are from the Czech Republic". That is not true, they are from former Czechoslovakia. When you want to write where were they made in , DANA was made in Slovakia( in the city of Dubnica) and the rocket launcher is from Czech Republic. So please rewrite it.
I'm not sure if this is not just a sabre-rattling by the self-declared "Cossacks". (Also, did the South Ossetians come into North Ossetia to fight the Ingush in 1992?) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't a vehicle for truth. I have no position on the issue. If conflicting references exist, cite them; recognizing there are degrees of credibility, there are no 'impartial' witnesses to war.
Mavigogun (
talk) 09:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The volunteers are reported to be in Russian uniforms with white arm bands. I seen A picture of soldiers fitting that discretion.-- 66.229.12.186 ( talk) 11:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There are only commanders in the infobox. Vladimir Putin actually is not a commander. Of course, he may have a great influence on Russian politics and may be on Dmitry Medvedev, but this is a unsourced mere surmise. Even George Bush uses the opinions of his generals, advisors, etc. Please stop original researching, people. :-( It's unencyclopedic. You may write an article about Putin's authority and influence on Medvedev, but this does not make Putin a Russian Army Commander. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 09:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the presidents and defense ministers from the Battle of Tskhinvali while cleaning up this total mess of an article and inserted the actual Russian commanders - someone also find and post the Georgian ones (and the Georgian forces). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The opening was worded 'The 2008 South Ossetia War is a military conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia.'; the syntax is ambiguous about which parties are in conflict with which -Georgia and South Ossetia are not in league against Abzhazia, for example. Altered syntax in attempt to clarify this distinction. Mavigogun ( talk) 09:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian General Staff Second-in-Commander Alexander Nagovitsyn confirms on the briefing at noon that Russian Army lost another two Su-25 jets.[154] Also he confirmed 18 soldiers dead, 14 missing (with unknown faith).
It's "fate" not "faith". -- DanteRay ( talk) 10:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, it's Nogovisyn ( Poligraf ( talk) 11:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC))
Preferably including their time as a Chechen separatist unit. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Existing version : The United Nations Security Council held an emergency session in New York City and released a statement to express "serious concerns at the escalation of violence".
New version : The United Nations Security Council held an emergency session in New York City as per Russian Federation request and released a statement to express "serious concerns at the escalation of violence".
Lucidlook ( talk) 10:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the Vladimir Putin`s notice about political cynicism of the United States should be added in the same place were his critics concerning moving georgian troops from Iraq are mentioned. [
[41]] --
193.232.9.194 (
talk) 15:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The introduction should mention Russian air strikes against Georgian settlements and facilities outside the South Ossetian and Abkhazian conflict zones. With Tskhinvali relatively peaceful right now, this bombardment campaign is the major point at issue between Russia on one hand and Georgia and the international community on the other. Please add the relevant information to the introduction. Thanks, -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Did this even happen? All we have here are the Russian military statements. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, I don't think it's a proper name. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait to merge the article, more information will appear in the comming days. Also the title is a proper name there are dozens of articles with similar names check the articles discussion page to see the reasoning why. XavierGreen ( talk) 16:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Please remove this pic immediately. I remember seeing this pic before it was appeared on Wikipedia/Commons, and I suspect that the licensing terms described on the pic page may not be true. We must confirm that the uploader is really the creator of the pic. Unless we do that let's remove it from the article. NerdyNSK ( talk) 10:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Война в Южной Осетии - уроки (in Russian). -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Tskhinvali&diff=231204556&oldid=231204026 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
And again. I request protection of Battle of Tskhinvali from the newly registered users. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The prediction about attack on Tskhinvali rendered accurate. some other unsupported news:
toxygen ( talk) 11:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
~~Those two captured US military advisers were black people. Being black does not make you American.
Russia says that it has 18 dead. Are they revising the previous statement of 21 or is it 21+18 They also said that 14 are missing.
Why isn't it 21 KIA 150 WIA 14 MIA 2 POW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 11:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it is about 21+18 dead + 14 missing. But it's unclear from the news entry. Seeking for another source... -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 12:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As we all know there are Georgian Azerbaijanis fighting along the Georgian side right now, but according to Azerbaijani media 2 volunteers have been killed and several wounded. I believe we need to add this in the infobox, Casualties and losses on the Georgian side. Any thoughts on this? Baku87 ( talk) 11:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This Stratfor article (you must be a member to see it), dated 20 March 2008, talks about the possibility of "a major confrontation between Moscow and Tbilisi, but also between Moscow and Washington". Would it be useful to note it somewhere? Perhaps a paragraph like " Stratfor on 20 March 2008 published an analysis in which it talked about the possibility of...etc". NerdyNSK ( talk) 11:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Str1977 repeatedly add Putin as commander of Russian forces. This is a lie. Somebody tell him about 3RR rule and vandalism. I agree to add Putin while we add George W. Bush and Condoleeza Rice to Georgian side. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 11:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I would like to change the sentence within the introduction from,
which considers the Georgian operation to be an act of genocide
to,
the only country which claims the Georgian operation to be an act of genocide
Does anyone have any article that any other country claims it to be "genocide" ?? PlanetCeres ( talk) 11:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia does not claim Georgian operation to be genocide. It claims Georgians commited genocide while doing the operation. IMHO, if at least tenth of the claims will prove true, Saakishvili will be very lucky to avoid War Crimes Tribunal. ( Poligraf ( talk) 11:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC))
Please, just post to the actual question. PlanetCeres ( talk) 11:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
My POV because it's important to me: Don't get me wrong, my heart sincerely goes out to the dead, injured, traumatized, their families, and their friends. I am angered that the children and other innocents don't know why this is happening. And, that they will be relying on Georgian and Russian information to figure it out in the future. So, the hate will keep on going. I am angered at all sides for this conflict. And, consider it all of their failures and crimes. Please don't reply to this POV. PlanetCeres ( talk) 12:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Please add this video of a Russian air strike in which the BBC journalists were cought to the external links section. Thanks, -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 11:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
How about videos from Russia Today? E.g. U.S. citisen POV, witnessing Ossetian Holocaust: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o This page: War in Georgia obviously has pro-Russian content, but also contains numerous news film links. You could filter out propaganda, but you should not ignore facts. Alexander.Vasiljev ( talk) 15:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
On August 8, Russia responded by moving additional troops across its official border with Georgia, bringing ground forces into South Ossetia and Abkhazia and launching airstrikes on targets elsewhere in Georgia. The Russian government stated its justification for entering Georgian territory was to protect Russian citizens (since most South Ossetians hold Russian passports[20][21]) and its peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia (Russia alleges 12 of its peacekeepers were killed by the initial Georgian attack and says it considers the Georgian operation to be an act of a "genocide" against Ossetians[22]), and to enforce the peacekeeping mandate given to it by the UN. Russian ships have begun patrolling Georgian Black Sea ports, although Russia denies this is a blockade.[23]
OK, so it's Russia. Now someone add that Georgia considers it a Russian invasion and occupation of their country, with the aims of "regime change" if not an outright annexation - and that they are "at war" with Russia. (With sources, of course.) May be in the same paragraph, and actually should precede's russia's reasoning because the war takes place there and not in Russia. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)'
Remove POV tag when done (I'm going now). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Other news: Medvedev: Operations in Georgia Almost Complete, EU-Russia relations in jeopardy as bombs hit Tbilisi. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, there's (I think) no word(!) about the ant-Kokoity (and the official one, according to the international recognition) South Ossetian government of Dmitry Sanakoyev - whose office was targetted by the separatist artillery fire just before the war and who was a target of an landmine attack in July 2008, too. The Provisional Administration of South Ossetia controlled about 1/3 of the province before the large-scale conflict started - but the article and the infobox says implies the separatist Republic of South Ossetia represents and always represented whole of South Ossetia. (Similar case with Abkhazia.) The bias is really heavy. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Somebody removed the detailed Caucasus mineral map from the article and I inserted it again. If you have objections, raise them here. NerdyNSK ( talk) 11:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
For example sentence number two in the article: "Since Georgia gained its independence from the Soviet Union in 1992, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, smaller territories within Georgia, which have been de facto independent nations since both fought and won wars of independence against Georgia in the early 1990's." This sentence is not proper English and is false. Georgia became independent from Russia April 9th 1991. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.224.21 ( talk) 12:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Uh, the exact sequence of events in the early 90's is insifigicant, and the exact political arrangement of states in the USSR is largely irrelevant , except 1. The USSR did what Russia wanted, so really when anything was done, it was done for Russia.
2. When you say "georgia was a part of USSR", it would be more accurate to say a. it was captured and occupied, and b. it was Russians doing the capturing and occupying. Because this then leads to the situation with Georgia vs Abkhazia, S Ossetia and Russia.
http://www.osradio.ru/?ent=11862 toxygen ( talk) 12:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is the official transcript of the Lavrov's interview for BBC (from the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs): http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/f68cd37b84711611c3256f6d00541094/f87a3fb7a7f669ebc32574a100262597?OpenDocument. Please add the link to the appropriate section of the page. I believe it's worth adding this link, for people how unable to watch the video. Enerjazzer ( talk)
I wish to raise doubt to the use of wording "separatists", not because doubting this word is negative, but doubt whether this word is accurate. The Ossetian separatism is probably not a true one because they did not fight for separation of North Ossetian. They are fighting for separation of South Ossetian but they still claim consider Ossetian, not South Ossetian is a whole. Is there better wording to describe the people when their true intent is to become puppet instead of independent (at least having independent constitution without higher law)?-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 13:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
They want to separate from Georgia, which is their nation-state de jure, which makes them separatists by definition.
The photo labeled "Demonstration against the Russian intervention outside the Russian embassy in Tbilisi on August 8, 2008." can be considered biased (anti-Russian).
So why not to place another photo as well ( http://img.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/11/picket/picture.jpg) with label like "Demonstration against the war outside the Georgian embassy in Moscow on August 11, 2008.". Source article, in Russian: http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/11/picket/ Enerjazzer ( talk) 12:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC) Enerjazzer
Here is the archived discussion regarding the force size table that I have restored to the article several times. Jim Furtado has removed it at least twice since the discussion with this diff calling my restoration "sneaky vandalism" and this diff referring to the reference discussion. I just found that he filed a 3RR report on me, in addition to accusing me of vandalism, sock-puppetry, and racism.
Now, I don't care if the table stays or goes, but I think that the earlier decision that it should stay should stand unless it is decided otherwise. Can I get some input? -- Elliskev 12:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there was enough discussion to put it back in. 3R not justified. Rediscuss maybe. PlanetCeres ( talk) 12:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This source agrees with the count of nine. I have changed the count and added the source. -- Elliskev 18:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Jim Furtado has removed it again. I'm not going to restore it because I don't want to waste my time wading through another load of bullshit diffs that have nothing to do with anything in another bullshit 3RR report against me. -- Elliskev 01:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone please remove all unrelevent information and completely lock the article to keep vandals like manchurian candidate and whatever other vandals are pushing this ghost recon thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lowsgt87 ( talk • contribs) 12:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I rewrote the lead and the warbox. Some of it was uncited, some parts were too long and some were plainly unreadable. Suggestions and objections welcome. Thanks. Naurmacil ( talk) 13:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Just because Putin/Medevev refer the Russian forces as "peacekeepers" (which is nonsence as the forces are not sanctioned by the UN or any other respected international organization), WP is not bound to do the same. Hapsala ( talk) 13:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Any reaction from Belgrade? So far the Serbian govnt has been quite loyal to the Kremlin, but this might not be exaclty what the Serbian nationalists were dreaming of. Hapsala ( talk) 13:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It's Georgia vs separatists and their separatist governments.
Pro-Georgian (Georgian) South Ossetian Abkhazian governments (along with territory controlled before the war, so not some virtual stuff) are Provisional Administration of South Ossetia (merged by some genius with the South Ossetia article - time to revert this) and the Government of the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia. (Separatist entities being Republic of South Ossetia and... oh well, no article, but should be Republic of Abkhazia.)
Please remember this. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Who deleted South Ossetia from the Location? The war started as invasion of Georgia to South Ossetia. Kostan1 ( talk) 13:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there is another misunderstanding. What exactly is mentioned as Location:South Ossetia, Georgia - something like South Ossetia and Georgia (the rest of the country) or something like Chicago, Illinois (just an example to show actual inclusion a comma use may represent)? If we are clear on this one, it will be easier. -- Tone 14:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Kostan1 will not be troubling us for another 48 hours. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 14:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I put POV tag as some other users insisted (through edit-warring) on "South Ossetia, Georgia". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/world/europe/12georgia.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
maybe some links can be replaced with this.
http://mk.ru/blogs/MK/2008/08/10/society/365780/
It seems to imply rather heavy casualties during one phase of the Russian attack, so heavy that they had to retreat from the city, regroup, and come back later with more force. Google translate can sometimes muck it up, but could someone with better Russian help me understand this? 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 13:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
I see. I brought it here for attention because it is being used in the Battle of Tskhinvali article.
70.131.218.57 (
talk) 15:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
As Georgia retreats from its offensive in South Ossetia, it claims that it is defending itself from "Russian aggression."[24] Russia responded to the charge in the United Nations, pointing out that Georgia had started the conflict.[25]
I think it is unacceptable. The Georgian POV is they responded to the continuing separatist provocations (including artillery attacks and roadside bombings) from the territory protected by the Russian "peacekeepers". Here, the Georgian fault is "pointed out in the United Nations" by Russia, except even without these citation marks. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Where is the information about Russian air strikes on civilian apartment buildings in Gori Georgia? Why is this information not included in the article? Why is this article using Russian sources which are obvious propaganda and anti-Russian POV? Where are the neutral users who can monitor the article? Why are some odd anti-Georgian claims taken from Russian sources and some not even referenced? After this tragedy, isn't it clear that Russia is a directly involved party and using their new agencies like Lenta.ru are not acceptable for NPOV guidelines? What Russian peacekeepers? This assumption is dead as of August 6. If you are using Russian sources, why not Georgian? In fact, Georgian news agencies are hacked by Russian government and many of them do not work (civil.ge as not yet been updated since its web site was hacked). Please monitor the POV pushing initiatives here by some users and limit Russian POV sources due to their obvious bias and anti-Georgian intent. There are plenty of western sources: CNN, BBC, Washinton Times, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, etc. So far the article is unbalanced and overly using Russian biased sources, which makes this article not in compliance with Wikipedia NPOV guidelines. We Georgian users are unable to monitor this article or add any additional info due to the non-stop Russian bombardment. As I was writing this massage, couple of explosions were heard. So we are unable, in this state of war and hardship to offer our own input into this massive wave of information, most of which is run by Russian users which use Russian POV and bias sources. I appeal to Wikipedias with neutral views to limit Russian bias on this article and take references from neutral sources. I hope this carnage of our civilians will end soon and we will be able to contribute to Wikipedia. Iberieli ( talk) 14:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
In Gori was only one bomb, but this bomb hit an armament depot near apartments. Ru magister ( talk) 18:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
[46] be useful (for example for inclusion in the humanitarian part) or do you think that it is biased and/or not necessary? OelnJa ( talk) 14:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
books and news organization are not advertisements because they back claims being made in the article as REFERENCES. If you were to include external links to NY Times or Time or Newsweek or whathaveyou then they would be advertisements too. If you find something worthy of mention then please cite it, while also rememebering that youtube is not a reputable source. Likewise vesti.ru. Certainly if you have videos to cite a point IN the article then please go ahead and cite them. ( talk)14:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I rewrote the lead again, adding four parts to it: first, Georgia's reason for its military operation against South Ossetia. Second, South Ossetia's denials. Third, Georgia's ceasefire. Fourth, Putin's promise for a "logical conclusion". These pretty much sum up the conflict. I also expanded Russia's comment in the United Nations, which points out Georgia started the war - after what Georgia claims are provocations by South Ossetians. That's all. Naurmacil ( talk) 14:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I have tried several times to keep the date formats consistent in this article. Before I go at it again, can I get some input as to the preferred format? I originally chose dd Month yyyy unlinked. Suggestions? -- Elliskev 15:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
(In addition, someone wrote Georgia claimed it lost 180 soldiers in the city, linking to the articles that didn't even contain number "180".)
Please wtach this page for the further reports of the babies "knived" by bloodthirsty Georgian genociders. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
These reports of bloodthirsty Georgian genociders running over old women with tanks and "kniving" babies has just been edited into the main War in South Ossetia article, can someone please remove TheCheeseManCan ( talk) 01:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposal: Create a section on use of mercenaries in this conflict
The Russian FM alleges use of Azerbaijani and Ukrainian mercenaries whilst the President of Georgia alleged in a BBC interview "Several hundred Chechen mercenaries had crossed through the tunnel to bolster Russian forces" Both claims appear in several interviews. and perhaps deserving of their own section. 86.143.189.22 ( talk) 15:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
To make editors relieved a bit :) Garret Beaumain ( talk) 15:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC) [47]
As it has none yet. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"Civil.ge server is under permanent DDOS attack, therefore it may fail to respond again. Please subscribe to the Google Groups mailing list, in order to receive civil.ge news updates. Civil.Ge blog operates on http://civilgeorgia.blogspot.com."-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 15:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, give it a redirect from Civil.Ge (or vice-versa). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
2008 South Ossetia war doesn't reflect the reality. - SSJ ☎ 16:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"War in Georgia (2008)" (there more wars in Georgia). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What is the war called in the news mostly? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
A proper historian would refer to this article as the Russo-Georgian War. Many news articles are refering to it as the russian georgian war, but use past wars as an example. Russo-Swedish Wars Russo-Turkish Wars Russo-Kazan Wars the list goes on and on. XavierGreen ( talk) 16:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently it is time to start Russian invasion of Georgia (2008) Tamokk ( talk) 16:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there any statement of the Moldovan officials? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.64.72.252 ( talk) 16:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Not Azeris or officially Azerbaijani forces, so no Azerbaijan flag please. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Naurmacil removed my previous edit and explained: "remove war propaganda - a UK source claims they're fighting propaganda. What makes you think the UK source isn't propaganda itself? It's unlikely, but it's purely POV."
So what is not a propaganda? However, please notice that both sides accuses "the other side" of using propaganda. So it is clear that at least one side uses propaganda, then it is enough to talk about a propaganda war. In addition it was UK website of Reuters. Reuters is not a reliable source? Please answer. I decided to rewrite it a bit and added again.
Besides, it would be great to extend the 'information warfare' paragraph because today it is almost as important as real warfare. Kieraf ( talk) 16:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
One more note to Propaganda Section. Georgian President Saakashvili is often appealing to Georgian in English, while the only official language in Georgia is Georgian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa ( talk • contribs) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be good to note that Georgia declared martial law. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
And also to say that Russia promised to "punish" the Georgians and repeatedly called their leadership "criminals". And what's up with the Prime Minister Vladimir Putin of Russia had promised working with Georgia and other participants of the conflict for a "logical conclusion" of its peacekeeping mission.[25] upbeat ending? What? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
GORI, Georgia, Aug 11 (Reuters) - At least six Georgian attack helicopters bombed targets in the region around the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, a Reuters witness said.
The action appeared to countermand a Georgian declaration of an end to military activity over the separatist region.
The reporter said the helicopters flew from Georgia proper and attacked targets just over the de facto boundary with South Ossetia, sending dark smoke billowing into the air.
Russia had earlier accused Georgia of shelling Russian troops, which drove Georgian forces from Tskhinvali this week. [49]
It is unclear whether "Margarita Antidze" witnessed or it is another reporter. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia has been conducting an ongoing cyber warfare against Georgian websites. Georgia: Russia 'conducting cyber war' 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Obviously this conflict has been boiling for some time, but is there an agreed upon incident that caused the current situation we have now? -- PiMaster3 talk 16:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Not "Ossetian military", but "South Ossetian separatist paramilitary". "Crossfire" is a wrong word - both were firing at each other's positions and villages, while Georgian vehicles were also repeatedly blasted by roadside bombs (including in an assasination attempt against the local leader, whose office at a police station was later also hit by separatist artillery). In short - increasing clashes (the Russian "peacekeeping" forces did not do anything, maybe except arming separatists, flying aircraft over Georgian territory, and shooting down Georgian drones over Georgia). In the end the Georgians offically called uniliteral ceasefire, but separatists allegedly attacked once again - at this point Georgians went all ballistic, and Russia invaded to "enforce peace", they say (and since then they do warkeeping despite the Georgian withdrawal and ceasefire offers). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Only a day after he compared the Russian doctrine with that of Adolf Hiler, Sweden's Foreign secretary and Chairman of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe Carl Bildt goes to Georgia in a bid to bring Russia and Georgia to the negotiating table. [51] Hapsala ( talk) 16:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It harms the image of wikipedia. -- Leladax ( talk) 17:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
'nuff said. -- Leladax ( talk) 17:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree - this section should be completely rewritten and updated, changed into something else and elsewhere, or even deleted. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't all discussion on the English version of the Wikipedia be in English? Jon ( talk) 17:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it more now? Gori alone was 50,000 (and it's reportedly battle zone now, and for sure half-empty when it was bombed), so I think it must be more than 20,000 total now. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It should not be called “ 2008 Russian invasion of Georgia” or “ 2008 Russian-Georgian War”?-- MaGioZal ( talk) 17:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I like 2008 Georgia War. -- Tocino 17:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
First it 70 soldiers dead and 150 civilians (Georgian claim) Then 300 soldiers and civilians dead (Georgian claim) Then 300 dead, most soldiers (Georgian claim) Then 200 soldiers and 100 civilians (Georgian claim) then 100 soldiers and 200 civilians (Georgian claim) and now it is 52 soldiers and 40 civilians killed (Georgian claim)
What gives?
You guys have put information about 4 aircraft Russia has lost but there is no information about Georgian units lost , I read from varius reports and pages that claim all sort of aircraft from Su-25 to Mi-8 to Mi-24 to UH-1 that was downed by russian airforce , why is this not posted?
http://interfax.ru/news.asp?id=26169
12 georgian tanks destroyed , and another report of a repelled attack where 19 were destroyed , but there is no information about it.
There is also no information about russian tanks destroyed.
They keep on changing, from 300(mostly soldiers) to 300(Mostly Civilians) to 200 soldiers to whatever it is now. Anybody have any solid info? 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 17:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
What is now is "the latest bodycount" by the Health Minister. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Mkays, thank you.
There was this guy who wrote a new section here that probably did it. He seemed very pro-Russian. If, indeed, the 52 soldiers and 40 civilians killed is the Georgian claim, then it stays until new info is found. 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 18:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Tskhinvali&diff=231268392&oldid=231255757
He calls it "Details", "Accusations of genocide", "Tskhinvali Destroyed", and "Quotations during the battle" (separatist tales of bloodthirsty Georgians only). (Names of the chapters.)
My version free of propaganda stories (but still including the separatist claim of 1,400 killed).
Any mod here: Please tell him to stop or something, thanks. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Any mod: Please lock this article. Top Gun is now calling my objections to the war propaganda tales "complaints about the genocide", he is seriouly treating this stuff like confirmed facts. I can't handle him alone unless i play an edit war with him, which would be almost as silly. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Please also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Captain_Obvious_and_his_crime-fighting_dog#Tskhinvali
I want revert this crap anymore, but I hope someone will take care of this. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I am inserting the reports of 2,000 people killed which is being reported by CNN, BBC and other mayor news stations, I don't think their into war propaganda, for this conflict at least. Everything I have inserted into the article has been referenced. User Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog is trying to push his own point of view which he himself admited. ( Top Gun)
I think the 2,000 claim is fine, but large tracts besides that do sound exactly like propaganda. make sure that you don't go overboard on hearsay, but keep the 2,000 mark as i HAVE heard that in many places.
70.131.218.57 (
talk) 18:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
Most Russian sources, CNN, Fox News, Reuters, the AP, etc, etc. Not saying it is correct, but it has been backed up with sources. The stuff about knifing babies and tanks running down old people has only been reported to Russian sources and can't be in any way verified. 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
For example, The Sunday Times source:
Ordinary apartment blocks were pounded as the remains of Georgian tanks struck by rocket-propelled grenades stood burning in the middle of the street. [52]
Top Gun "writes":
Ordinary apartment blocks were pounded as the remains of Georgian tanks struck by rocket-propelled grenades stood burning in the middle of the streets.
Someone PLEASE do something about this guy. Like "go away". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
So. Can I remove the stolen content - and keep it (and him) away from now on? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
According to Reuters:
Well isn't that interesting. Especially since this is coming from Reuters, there's no accusing it of being Russian propaganda. Looks like Georgia's plan to play victim is utterly failing on all levels. Crazytrain89 ( talk) 18:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The second opinion is not on topic. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 18:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian forces have taken the town of Gori and invaded Georgia proper. Russia Forces Move to Within 35 Miles of Tbilisi Monday, August 11, 2008 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Summing up: There is Reuters vs. BBC / Welt / DPA / CNN / AP / AFP ... -- DanteRay ( talk) 18:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The Reuters seems to be an old one at this point. Look it up on recent news. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 18:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also according to CNN, the Georgians now doesn't really know whats happening in the air and land. The statements from the Georgian side must be taken from this point on with a doze of salt - "A U.S. military official told CNN that Russian attacks on Georgia -- including radars and communication systems -- have devastated the country's command and control system to the point where Georgian leaders may not have a clear idea of the situation on the ground.". Source:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.russia/index.html
Aedile (
talk) 18:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Note, however, that the Russians claim to have attacked Senaki, in this report, at the other end of Georgia. That is an advance beyond the autonomous districts. So DanteRay may be rash, unless of course this is a one-way bet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
BBC on Reuters side now. "Diplomatic sources who visited Gori on Monday evening later told the BBC that the town had not been taken. " ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm) Aedile ( talk) 20:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4642/turkfk4.png
Turkish vehicle destroyed in georgia
It is a well known fact that Georgia has Turkish vehicles.
Is anyone able to create/obtain maps of the conflict zones based on the news reports? I realize this might be hard to next to impossible because of conflicting information, sketchy details, and the rapid pace of the conflict, but if anyone is able to do this it would be much appreciated. MattW93 ( talk) 18:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The guy standing in pic 3 is clearly not the guy in pic 4. they are similar, but not the same. I don't know why the dead guy in pic 1 and 2 is face down in pic 3. Maybe pic 3 was taken before 1&2. I don't know why the dead guy is so clean and with no apparent wounds. What is wrong with pic 5? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 18:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
SORRY I THINK SOME TOPIC WAS DELETED!
Anyone got a public source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 19:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't the image be changed to also show the Russian North Ossetia, which the South Ossetians reportedly would rather merge with? 86.56.43.231 ( talk) 19:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
According to Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment about Georgia, the Order of Battle of the Georgian Army is the following:
Of these army formations, those marked with bold text would be in the area of operations on August 7-8. These I think should be included in the OOB section for Georgia, and perhaps the same with the 3rd Infantry Brigade (of course, this is only one source, but should be taken into consideration anyway).
BTW, I knew that a similar list is also on the Military of Georgia page, but better with confirmation from a second source. Realismadder ( talk) 19:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Im confused, are there any peace talks going on between the 2 countries right now? and is Russia advancing to the capital? Yuhi33 ( talk) 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
And, once regular Russian units pulled into the region, Georgia was left with no chance of victory whatsoever, as the whole of its army is roughly equivalent to one of Russia's motorized rifle divisions.
Therefore, since Georgia's projected blitzkrieg failed, it has lost the war - that much is obvious. On the other hand, it has clearly gained some political success, as Russia faces being labeled an aggressor by the international community.
Moscow indeed found itself in a viscous dilemma once Georgian forces invaded the self-proclaimed republic. Neither of its options was acceptable. It could either let down South Ossetians and be condemned by North Ossetians as a traitor, or begin an invasion of a sovereign state without a UN mandate and be condemned by the world at large as an aggressor. There was no other option available.
Russia chose the latter evil, wisely estimating it as the lesser of the two. It is preferable to be labeled an aggressor than a traitor. Incidentally, Russia is one of the five lucky nations having the right of veto in the UN Security Council - the only body authorized to define a country's actions as "aggression."
Aedile (
talk) 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
or http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/areas/globalconflicts.htm (Russian peacekeepers was stayed instead of UN, CIS mandate was adopted as UN mandate.); http://eng.expert.ru/news/2008/06/19/geor_mir/ (this is the same mandate - see link before) Ru magister ( talk) 22:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unomig/index.html http://www.unomig.org/ Ru magister ( talk) 23:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This war isn't South Ossetia anymore. Perhaps we should call it a Georgian-Russian war? or is that too strong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.255.143.104 ( talk) 19:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Some of the sources are already gone. Please care on whether the source you're using will still exist in some weeks (e.g. news.yahoo.com and any AP-Newsfeed disappears within 60 days) and make sure not to use dynamic links which change frequently. Thanks. -- Matthiasb ( talk) 19:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The source is currently only in Russian but if it's true (as I hope) it'll appear elsewhere soon. Alæxis ¿question? 19:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Some interesting notes by a swedish crew on site:
"A young colleague at one of Tbilis newspapers ensured us that she saw two bombs being dropped from a russian airplane at 4:00 AM in the morning in her neighborhood. However, we found no trace of any aerial attack there."
"As a large military transport flew over central Tbilisi on monday, terrified people started screaming that the russians were attacking. DN's pictures showed that the plane was in fact american."
"After getting reports of aerial attacks on both civilian and military targets in Tbilisi three nights on a row, DN tried to find one of these attacked areas with no success. We were told that the areas were "off limits""
Of course, this is open to interpretation and I'm not making any statement by this.
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=148&a=814441
The newspaper is one of the biggest in Sweden so I'd say it's legitimate as a source.
Any swedes are welcome to verify that the translations are correct.
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/08/11/afx5309917.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4507980.ece It's a full rout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.142.97 ( talk • contribs)
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has alleged that Georgia is responsible for a "complete genocide."
What is complete genocide? Every representative of the group of people the genocide is directed at - killed? Is there a partial genocide? Could this be a mistranslation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk • contribs)
Footage that appears in this BBC report - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552921.stm - around the 10 second mark - seems to show a red-over-green-over-red flag, appearing quite similar to the Flag of Transnistria. I seem to remember seeing suggestions that Transnistrians were volunteering to go to S Ossetia. This footage appears to suggest that Transnistrians may indeed have reached Tskhinvali, though that's impossible to prove just from the footage. But might it back up other potential sources? Is it relevant to the article? I think it might be interesting to add to information about pro-Ossetian volunteers, but needs more corroboration. What does everyone think? ZedderZulu ( talk) 20:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Could anyone go through the entire article and correct the typo?
Russian General Staff Second-in-Commander is Alexander Nogovitsyn, not Alexander Nagovitsyn.
Another Typo
The fourth reference: "Human Rights Watch Counts South Ossetian Casualties, Displaced", Deutsche Wille (11 August 2008). Retrieved on 2008-08-11." It is not "Deutsche Wille" but "Deutsche Welle". I can't change it myself -- DanteRay ( talk) 20:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Changed Minir to Minor. King ( talk) 00:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This user is doing a number of edits that are very close to vandalism. For example, he simply replaces "South Ossetian separatists shelled Georgian-populated villages" by "Georgian artillery shelled Ossetian villages" here, although sited source tells: "Gunfire delivered by South Ossetian armed units..." and so on. Please check this. Thank you. Biophys ( talk) 21:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
We need to protect this article from edits by newly registered users.
The August 11: Russian advances section contains two images that are claimed by Daritto7117 ( talk · contribs) to be his ("I created this work entirely by myself"), yet they are from two different fronts. Image:2749628284 40df4d2987.jpg and Image:Russian Troops ISO2008.jpg. I find this dubious. -- SVTCobra ( talk) 21:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It is clearly time to rename this article to Russia-Georgia War or something similar. It is no longer about South Ossetia. It's a war between Russia and Georgia.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 20:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This should be named 2008 armed conflict in Georgia. Calling it a war already is POV and smells like sensational journalism (suitable for headlines), as many major engagements took and are taking place outside Ossetia. Sinking the Georgian missile boat in Georgia's territorial waters (?) was not done to help Ossetia but either in self-defense or as part of intimidation, nor is the bombing of Georgian military targets throughout the country situated far from Ossetia proper, or conducting armed conflict in the Kodori Valley's gorge in eastern Abkhazia, with th participation of Abkhazia Air Force such as it is. Russia never declared war, either, and neither has Georgia, or the self-proclaimed governments of the breakaway republics. A "state of war" was proclaimed by Georgia's legislature for 15 days -- but that legalese is not exactly congruent with declaring war in international law. Why change it now? Because the proposed alternative is more apt, more NPOV and accurate, and there is no tenure for holding on to bad information on Wikipedia. Also, it has been argued elsewhere (on pl wiki) that other Wikipedias are calling it that, so why not us. Time to fix it, and start fixing it here, so it will be noticed and fixed everywhere. That would be careful editing with an eye for the consequences of casting information on Wikipedia for others. -- Mareklug talk 22:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I move that we change the name to either "Georgian-Russian War (2008), or alternately, the "2008 Caucasian War". The conflict has obviously expanded beyond South Ossetia not simply in terms of the front lines moving into Georgia, but also how Abkhazia is not directly involved with Ossetia but seized on the opportunity. And what of Ukrainain involvement?-- Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici ( talk) 22:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What is a war if not armed conflict Flick fliss floss ( talk) 04:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Given that the Russians have advanced far into Georgian territory beyond Ossetia, opening a second front from Abkhazia, shouldn't this article be renamed to Russo-Georgian war (2008) or Russian invasion of Georgia (2008)? Martintg ( talk) 22:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
SO. Are we renaming this or not? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
{{ Refimprovesect}} {{ rewrite}} {{ update-section}} After several years of dispute over the status of South Ossetia, Georgian troops (reportedly with Headquarters at Tirdznisi) conducted an operation to dislodge Russian peacekeepers from their positions, and occupy South Ossetia, notably its capital Tskhinvali.
Georgian forces advanced into South Ossetia along three axes:
[3]
In the western Ossetia-Georgia border sector
In the southern Ossetia-Georgia border sector
During the 9-10 August the South Ossetian and Russian forces that had recovered from the initial Georgian offensive were able to bypass the Georgian troops in the Liakhvi valley from the northwest by advancing over Height 1134, and with a pincer offensive retaking Tskhinvali from the western outskirts of the city, cutting off Georgian troops in the valley to the north from their lines of communication, and forcing a general withdrawal of Georgian troops. To complete the encirclement, Russian troops occupied Height 1475 east of Tskhinvali, thereby also securing line of fire over the Prisi - Dmenisi road that runs along the northern sector of the Georgian front.
A separate sector of advance penetrated some 10 km (6.2 mi) into the Southern Ossetian territory along the Eastern Prone stream valley west of Liakhvi River.
In the eastern Ossetia-Georgia border sector
Georgian troops advanced on a broad front to a depth of 15–20 km (9.3–12.4 mi), occupying Akhalgor (Leningori) as far as Churpia stream, a source of the
Ksani River, and after negotiating the mountainous terrain, entered the
Liakhvi River valley from the east, seeking to link up with the forces advancing in the central sector of the southern border advance at Kemerti, and seeking to occupy Beloti, another of the larger cities in South Ossetia. This effectively cut South Ossetia in two, with the eastern third being cut off from the rest of the territory.
Salvage what you want (or not - nothing of this was sourced, after all). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Well, since Russia's real objective is to reach the pipelines and probably cut them off, so Europe would not have any alternative to Russian oil, can the article contain more information in this sense? Also another objective might be a show of force do discourage small countries who border Russia to join the NATO. The article does not mention these problems, so I think there is a NPOV problem here...
Please do not remove anything without consensus. Several editors edited this section and only one removed it. If you think that they must be among other casualties, move them there, but DO NOT REMOVE AT ALL please. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 23:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed a statement from a tabloid "journalist" as it was both off topic for the section in which it appeared and because, as a tabloid, there are questions as to the statement's credibility. It effectively alleged war crimes were being committed by the Georgians and, frankly, I think that ought to be better sourced and verified if such claims are going to be included. croll ( talk) 00:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've spoken with an admin. If the edit war won't stop I'll propose this article for full protection. Every non-minor edit should be discussed on this talk page first and reasonably supported. If people spent their time implementing something what was agreed on here then it's ridiculous to delete it without any discussion. I repeat myself, this is not sandbox of 1 or 2 people. toxygen ( talk) 23:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Please do not add him to infobox. Vladimir Putin is only a prime-minister at now. Commander-in-Chief is Dmitry Medvedev. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 23:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
he is the de facto commander, medvedev was handpicked by him purposely to be his puppet, AND he has met with russian generals in the region right after flying home from beijing. ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk) 02:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
He is the de facto leader of Russia. And is calling the shots in this conflict. From the BBC, "Russian PM Vladimir Putin seems to be taking the decisions" [1] LCpl ( talk) 03:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
From the TimesOnline: "The fighting in Georgia has answered the question that world leaders have been asking since Vladimir Putin stepped down as President this year: who runs Russia? The answer, of course, is Mr Putin." [2] LCpl ( talk) 03:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Erm... Great Britain, Russia.. two completely different nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.116.199.218 ( talk) 04:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I dont think the local military command requires the President or Prime Minister's permission to do anything, he already has permission to be in Georgian territory so far as required to protect the people and territory of S Ossetia and Abkazia. .
202.92.40.8 (
talk) 13:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There no citation attached to the ref tag. As a result, the references are showing an error. ' Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; no text was provided for refs named turkish-journalist-was-wounded'. -- Patrick ( talk) 23:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
That was my doing. It is taken care of. -- Adoniscik( t, c) 17:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
See video with him, time near 02:45. His name like Winston Faderly or may be Winston Faderley, he says he's from Alaska, all his crew were killed except him. He is in Tskhinvali hospital basement on video. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 23:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
If it wasn't so difficult uploading images (with working permission), the page could now have over 600 to chose from (in my possession). However, I could upload a couple of screenshots from the Norwegian news channel TV2 Nyhetskanalen's coverage of it (I have recorded from Friday, Saturday and Sunday), so there could be some OK images until better photos become available.
Secondly, I might be able to help with the Georgian OOB - for a starter, Military of Georgia page has a list of the army's formation. Formations in direct vicinity of the fighting is 1st Infantry Brigade, Separate Tank Battalion, Artillery Brigade. Of course it is important to stay critical, but all these formation's participation makes sense, as tanks and artillery were used.
I might be able to find more at a better source specializing on nation's armed forces.
Realismadder ( talk) 00:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What does that mean? Are the 100 civilians? If they are, why the double standard of having the thousands of other civilian deaths in a 'general' section? -- Leladax ( talk) 00:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Because the 2000 is probably inflated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 00:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Has it been confirmed that it was a TU-22M Backfire that was shot down as I heard that the Russian military claimed it was a TU-22 Blinder (presumably an elint/recon variant) that was shot down? 192.136.16.3 ( talk) 01:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
→ no idea which version of Backfire was shot down, but I have info on weapon used to bring it down: Russian made SAM S300 (nato reporting name - Vega) 87.206.61.201 ( talk) 03:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
How can you call wikipedia an independent encyclopedia after publishing this article? Everybody who reads it PLEASE pay attention to the references ALL OF THEM ARE RUSSIAN! and please just think about one thing: why Russian military base is in Georgia? Would for example USA like russian soldiers in the states? and those so called peacekeepers are recognized only by russians themselves, Please google russian peacekeepers to see their equipment.
There is several articles and frequent updates by Civil Georgia if you look in the references. The peacekeepers consist of a contigent of Georgian, Russian and Ossetian troop and are UN-mandated and monitored. I can't answer the military base one, but I answered what I can, cheers! Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Most media about this conflict are russian, because the russians have a lot of media in this area and the russian gouverment is interested in showing the world their point of view. Western or other foreign journalists could show the other side of the conflict, but they are simply not als well established in the area as russian. They need time to gather and confirm information. Until then, we have to take what we can get. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.52.252.165 ( talk) 05:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I have received meesages that Gori is under attack, I know there has been airstrikes but I mean ground attacks. People claim Russia has started the Gori offensive. Is there any link to prove this, because it seems very important because US troops are stationed there and in leads to th East/West Highway. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
In Gori was only one bomb, but this bomb hit an armament depot near apartments. About 60 civilians were wounded. Ru magister ( talk) 17:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the sections between the lead and the background: "Russian Stance", "Georgian Stance", "International factors", etc. should be moved elsewhere. They are breaking the flow of the article. Putin's quote in the Russian stance is a some sort of evaluation of the conflict. It probably should go to other leader's opinions. "Georgian stance" is basically a duplicate of the lead. I do not think we need it in that form nor that this is the Georgian official narrative Alex Bakharev ( talk) 02:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 02:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The article is being increasingly dominated by the Russian nationalistic POV and is turning into a slur against Georgia. Wikipedia should be a neutral source. The introduction of this article is written in the style which would better fit Mr. Zhirinovksy's website. The article also lacks the information about the Russo-Ukrainian marine stalemate. Also, the U.S. accuses Russia of using the South Ossetia crisis as a pretext to overthrow the elected Georgian government. Please add these and other details from international media outlets. Eg, http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 02:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Under "August 11:"
"Western Officials again reiterated there fears that Russia..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.150.190.50 ( talk) 03:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Something like that...just go ahead and fix it yourself when you see it. 71.225.97.173 ( talk) 05:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the parts of the article where diplomatic efforts, statements, negotiations, UNSC meetings, etc, should get their own section. The timeline is a bit uncomfortable to read the way it is now. Sarejo ( talk) 03:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The following text about advanced preparation of Russian forces for the attack has been deleted:
On August 4, five battalions of Russian 58th Army were moved to the vicinity of Roki Tunnel that links South Ossetia with North Ossetia [1]
should we add a battle box since russia is attacking Gori and advancing?
Yes, I think they already shot preliminary tank blasts and artillery, I could be wrong. Attilavolciak07 ( talk) 03:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Fixed title of this talk 216.36.153.161 ( talk) 06:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There is information coming in that an engagement is taking place on the road leading into Gori. A new page should be made. A link called The battle for Gori? under Aug 10 or 11. [9] Youtube of BCC also shows Russians targeting Civilian and/or non-military targets.
Please be mindful of Russian Intelligence Cyber attacks concerning the NPOV.-- 68.32.187.180 ( talk) 08:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone make a article about the Russian advance onto Goir? And what happen too the navel battle bettwen The black fleet and the Georgian navy? -- 66.229.12.186 ( talk) 13:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Ossetian rebels are "volunteers." Georgian irregulars are "American mercenaries." Georians "invade", Russians are "peacekeepers." What a bunch of hogwash -- it's impossible to even find a scintilla of truth in this article. There is a massive Russian disinfoprmation campaign going on on the network and this is just part of it. Letters to major newspapers and their article comments; blog comments; Wikipedia, etc. All just part of a vast and pre-planned effort to foist a Russian nationalist POV onto the net.
Shame on WIkipedia -- this whole article needs to be suspended. Volunteer editors cannot hope to keep up with internet mercenaries and government-sponsored data attacks. Kcmurphy88 ( talk) 03:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
user:LokiiT has just removed the info on the separatists' attack on pro-Georgian Ossetian administration. The overzealous pro-Kremlin users seem to be in control of this article. Please restore this valid information. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 03:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The most funny thing is that Georgia shows itself everywhere as a victim of Russia's Imperialism. No one even knows that Georgia broke diplomatic discussion a couple of days before the whole thing started. Same thing with actions, after breaking the discussions Georgia sent their troops to South Ossetia to "definitely" show Ossetians where is their "place" in Georgia. South Ossetia called for Russian help only. Time to stop Georgian propaganda either. P.S. USA and Israel did help Georgia before and druing the war. -- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 03:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
concrete and specific suggestions have been made, but they have been downplayed. The information on the seccessionists' attack on pro-Georgian Ossetian officials have been deleted without any explanation. The article is unbalanced as the majority of cited sources are Russian. The "X.ru claims..." wording is not enough as each of such claims should be balanced by what a Georgian or international source says. B. Lynn Pascoe, the Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs, noted yesterday that the UN lacked information because of cyber-attacks on Georgian websites. [10] And the summary box mentions only Putin's version of refugees in North Ossetia, ignoring the data provided by the UN commissioner responsible for refugees. [11]-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 04:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 04:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The overview section needs inline references just like the rest. If it's written twice, it needs to be referenced twice. Furthermore, the current form of the section reads a bit like original synthesis. Superm401 - Talk 04:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
1) Do not tell us or complain us media is bias. Every media is bias in some sense. Do not pretend you are more impartial than the media. Just put the name of the author/date/where whenever making a reference so reader can decide it, not you decide it. 2) If the content is bias point out where it is. For example, ask for a UN resolution number if you doubt that there is UN resolution had endorsed peacekeeping. If there is POV point it out. Be precise and do not be bold. -- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 04:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I've put two genocide/ethic cleansing accusations into the article, one by each side. They should both be retained, as this issue has received significant coverage (and speculation):
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)-- Superm401 - Talk 04:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"Background", paragraph one: "Saakashvili proposed a peace deal under which South Ossetia . . . " Pls change this to: "The President of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili, proposed a peace deal . . . ", and hypertext his name. Sstteevvee ( talk) 04:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
LokiT has removed the UN refugee count, saying it is days old. He notes that their is a replacement from a BBC story. The problem is that new figure doesn't break down refugees by ethnicity. I'll put it in the infobox for now. Superm401 - Talk 04:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 04:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There are several media reports that 4000 Russian troops ( naval infantry?) made an amphibious landing in Abkhazia. [12] [13] Other media said the naval task force included the guided missle cruiser Moskva, the "patrol boat" Smetlivy (actually a Kashin class destroyer) and three three large landing craft. [14] [15] [16] Another report says "includes three amphibious assault vessels, two anti-submarine warfare vessels, a reconnaissance ship, two minesweepers, two missile boats, a missile cruiser and a variety of aircraft". [17] 203.7.140.3 ( talk) 04:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed a statement claiming an Israeli involvement. The only source was DEBKA, which is not by any stretch of imagination a reliable source (see also the Wikiarticle Debka.com. There was also a link to a Russian language news report at РБК Daily, but Israel is not mentioned once in the article. All editors here you should really be more careful with their citations. Голубое сало ( talk) 04:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Should we create already article Russia-Georgia war per this and other sources? Biophys ( talk) 05:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Sweden has evoked the memory of Adolf Hitler in condemning Russia's attacks on Georgia over the breakaway region of South Ossetia, saying the protection of Russians there did not justify the assault. "No state has the right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of the state," ... "Attempts to apply such a doctrine have plunged Europe into war in the past... And we have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe," Foreign Minster Carl Bildt said in a statement. The Local -- Hapsala ( talk) 04:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"I don't recall Poland (...) destroying cities in Poland that wanted to be part of Germany." Well, there was Bloody Sunday (1939) in Bydgoszcz. But anywyay, I believe the comment was related to the 1938 Sudetenland crisis, followed by the German occupation of Czechoslovakia on the pretext of defending the ethnic Germans there ( Volksdeutsche) from the Czech persecution. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Comments from the west are irrelevant, we may as well quote nuclear phsysicists as quote politicians from USA, sweden, australia... we may put these quotes at the end in "stupid comments from stupid people"
BlueSalo removed Israel from the order of battle section and combatant statements. His explanation was "unsourced statement, see talk page" but I don't see what part is unsourced ( Debka clearly provides all the info), nor do I see any comments by BlueSalo here. I've put the info back in, and would appreciate an explanation.
BlueSalo is still claiming it's unsourced, but as far as I can tell that's not true. Superm401 - Talk 05:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw, the claim like this (20 or so times more killed than wounded) is truly laughable. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I checked and the claims of "90 wounded and 1,600 killed" are still in Google search but strangly not in the articles themselves. So I removed this. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Has south Ossetia made a statement about its dead combatants? I think they have put the civvies and combatants into 1 pot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 10:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes it's more than 1500 killed civils, and many uncounted ones is still laying under ruins. And it is not f***ing laughable! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.203.168.97 ( talk) 03:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The Chicago Tribune (and other sources) are carrying some remarks by United States Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey and retired General Wesley Clark. [20]
Deputy National Security Adviser James Jeffrey was asked whether U.S. military intervention was on the table. "Our focus is on working with both sides," he replied, "with the Europeans and with a whole variety of international institutions and organizations to get the fighting to stop, get the two sides disengaged and get people back to the status quo ante, which we define as the 6th of August."
He added that if the reports of Russian ships moving to blockade Georgia were true, it would be very troubling.
"We would be ... very, very concerned if, in fact, there is ground action inside of Georgia proper, that is outside of these areas of Abkhazia and Ossetia," Jeffrey said.
In the face of that, there appeared little the U.S. and its allies could do to, such as extending NATO combat air patrols to Georgia, as they were in 2002 to deter Russian interference in Lithuania. "There are already Russian aircraft over Georgia, so the chances of direct engagement [between Russian and NATO aircraft] is very high," retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark said.
Should any of that be included? JCDenton2052 ( talk) 06:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that we should delete this section and just wait to the end of conflict for the official numbers, other way we have laughable and propaganda informations. Section is not even upgraded and as far as I know everyday during the war someone dies or is wounded.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 06:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
They are the official numbers. Btw, everyone don't reinstate the other side's claims (like the Georgian about how many Russia lost). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Here's the 1400 number: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL857385920080808?pageNumber=3&virtualBrandChannel=0 -- Geleonit ( talk) 17:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Media reports now say 9000 Russian troops and 350 armoured vehicles in Abkhazia alone. [21] [22] [23]
Deployed ships from the Black Sea Fleet are reported to include the guided missile cruiser Moskva and Kashin class destroyer Smetlivy. [24] [25] [26] [27]
203.7.140.3 ( talk) 06:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Several Russian [28] [29] and English [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] language sources are reporting that Turkey has deployed naval elements off the coast of Georgia. Should this be included? JCDenton2052 ( talk) 06:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently a regiment of Vostok troops, loyal to Yamadayev, had been dispatched to South Ossetia, in order to fight alongside the Russian Federal troops, against Georgia. Here is the source: http://www.life.ru/video/4966 a video from a russian news agency. On an armored vehicle one can clearly spot a Chechen flag flying, and there are also bits of chechen speech, and the whole article itself relates to this story. I guess this can be an addition to the summary box, the sides of the conflict. There are also reports from kommersant newspaper, that some troops had been already spotted by South Ossetian refugess, engaging georgian troops. Here are the sources: http://www.kommersant.ru/news.aspx?NewsID=131308 http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1010079 Daud.fr ( talk) 06:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Not "loyal to Yamadayev" - the Hero of Russia Sulim Yamadayev was just declared federally wanted in Russia.(!) Those "loyal to Yamadayev" are with him wherever he is is hiding now. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 07:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Северная окраина Цхинвали. Из разорванного трубопровода хлещет вода, заливающая прилегающие улицы. Навстречу нам едет БТР с надписью "Чечня. Восток. Ямадаев". На броне — восемь хорошо экипированных бойцов. Они поднимают руку в приветственном жесте. Это, как и белые ленточки, опознавательный знак.
regardless of his status, i guess his troops yet remain loyal to him.
Don't wanna be annoying here...but found another source here
http://www.utro.ru/articles/2008/08/11/758662.shtml, a russian news agency, which cites that apart from the Vostok and Zapad Units (the both should be added to the order of the battle section...someone deleted Vostok from it recently...??), which are already involved in fighting, the Commander of the Kadyrov controlled South unit, has organised a detachment of Chechen volunteers (not the chechen soldiers of Russian Army, but actual volunteers), from the of republic security forces loyal to Kadyrov. According to the article, there are around 600 volunteers, as the commander of the South Battalion, Anzor Magomadov said: "Under my command there are now 600 men, 200 are ready to leave in a matter 5 minutes, the other 400 will be ready in one hour".
The same article mentions 20 volunteers from Karachaevo-Cherkessia, and hundreds from Dagestan. I guess some of the moderators could actually expand the section on the volunteers.
Daud.fr (
talk) 14:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's write FAQ for newcomers, like on Russian talk page?
For example:
etc.
-- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 06:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
WP is just too popular these days. There are too many editors here, too many different agendas, and this article is already too long. I think this article should be locked for admins only. But before it's locked we should remove some of the cruft and weasel words. -- Tocino 06:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
You can't say that they are or not separatist. According to your sentence Kosovo and Chechen people are separatist too. -- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 07:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It's a War. Of course there are two side. People are being destroyed. I think if we make sure that all of our sources are documented, we will be able to sort through it after the dust of the bombings has settled. Jason3777 ( talk) 07:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, please lock this down to admins only, and even then be on guard. It's not trustworthy if it's open, it's just going to get propaganda machines from both side spouting their version of events. Mullingitover ( talk) 00:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The contents of the article should be edited to provide more accurate information. The first paragraph is a large run on sentence. The 2008 South Ossetia war is a military conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia which gain military support from Russia, that began in August 2008 following several days of heavy fighting between the Georgian army and South Ossetian militias. Georgia launched a surprise military operation to recapture control of the unrecognised Republic of South Ossetia, a breakaway region of Georgia, saying the action was in response to separatist attacks on Georgian villages. South Ossetia denied the attacks occurred.
Should read more like this:
The 2008 South Ossetia Conflict is a military conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia, and Abkazhia. Georgia gained independence from Russia in 1992, while South Ossetia and Abkhazia, smaller territories in Georgia, have remained close to Russia and are backed by Russia. The Conflict began in August 2008 after Georgia launched a military offensive to clear the South Ossetia region of separatists.
Whether or not I have the facts in a neutral term, the wording in the first sentence is incorrect.
I agree, good point. I changed it. -- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 07:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It says in the article that ru sites can be accessible again, but I surely can't here in Tbilisi. So Reuters are wrong there. Narking ( talk) 07:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As I know word separatist (Russian: сепаратист) sound negative in Russian language, but in English language it is absolutely neutral word meaning those soldiers who fights for separation of their country. And nothing more. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 07:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
From English Wikipedia :
"Separatism refers to the advocacy of a state of cultural, ethnic, tribal, religious, racial or gender separation from the larger group, often with demands for greater political autonomy and even for full political secession and the formation of a new state. Depending on their political situation and views, groups may refer to their organizing as independence, self-determination, partition or decolonization movements instead of, or in addition to, automatic, separatist or secession movements. While some critics may equate separatism and religious segregation, racial segregation or sexual segregation, separatists argue that separation by choice is not the same as government enforced segregation and serves useful purposes."
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 07:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Why in the losses section it doesn't show Georgian losses in tanks and Airplanes?
(UTC)
[37] - 11 Georgians are captured in South Ossetia [38] - A Georgian ship is sunk by Russian fleet, unknown number of sailors died [39] - A Georgian plane (SU-25) was downed by Russian forces [40] - At the end of this article there is info about 12 Georgian tanks that were destroyed, the info is confirmed by couple other statments.
In the section of OPPOSING FORCES is written that "152mm SpGH DANA self-propelled guns and RM-70 Multiple rocket launchers are from the Czech Republic". That is not true, they are from former Czechoslovakia. When you want to write where were they made in , DANA was made in Slovakia( in the city of Dubnica) and the rocket launcher is from Czech Republic. So please rewrite it.
I'm not sure if this is not just a sabre-rattling by the self-declared "Cossacks". (Also, did the South Ossetians come into North Ossetia to fight the Ingush in 1992?) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't a vehicle for truth. I have no position on the issue. If conflicting references exist, cite them; recognizing there are degrees of credibility, there are no 'impartial' witnesses to war.
Mavigogun (
talk) 09:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The volunteers are reported to be in Russian uniforms with white arm bands. I seen A picture of soldiers fitting that discretion.-- 66.229.12.186 ( talk) 11:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
There are only commanders in the infobox. Vladimir Putin actually is not a commander. Of course, he may have a great influence on Russian politics and may be on Dmitry Medvedev, but this is a unsourced mere surmise. Even George Bush uses the opinions of his generals, advisors, etc. Please stop original researching, people. :-( It's unencyclopedic. You may write an article about Putin's authority and influence on Medvedev, but this does not make Putin a Russian Army Commander. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 09:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I removed the presidents and defense ministers from the Battle of Tskhinvali while cleaning up this total mess of an article and inserted the actual Russian commanders - someone also find and post the Georgian ones (and the Georgian forces). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The opening was worded 'The 2008 South Ossetia War is a military conflict between Georgia, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia.'; the syntax is ambiguous about which parties are in conflict with which -Georgia and South Ossetia are not in league against Abzhazia, for example. Altered syntax in attempt to clarify this distinction. Mavigogun ( talk) 09:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian General Staff Second-in-Commander Alexander Nagovitsyn confirms on the briefing at noon that Russian Army lost another two Su-25 jets.[154] Also he confirmed 18 soldiers dead, 14 missing (with unknown faith).
It's "fate" not "faith". -- DanteRay ( talk) 10:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, it's Nogovisyn ( Poligraf ( talk) 11:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC))
Preferably including their time as a Chechen separatist unit. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Existing version : The United Nations Security Council held an emergency session in New York City and released a statement to express "serious concerns at the escalation of violence".
New version : The United Nations Security Council held an emergency session in New York City as per Russian Federation request and released a statement to express "serious concerns at the escalation of violence".
Lucidlook ( talk) 10:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the Vladimir Putin`s notice about political cynicism of the United States should be added in the same place were his critics concerning moving georgian troops from Iraq are mentioned. [
[41]] --
193.232.9.194 (
talk) 15:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The introduction should mention Russian air strikes against Georgian settlements and facilities outside the South Ossetian and Abkhazian conflict zones. With Tskhinvali relatively peaceful right now, this bombardment campaign is the major point at issue between Russia on one hand and Georgia and the international community on the other. Please add the relevant information to the introduction. Thanks, -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Did this even happen? All we have here are the Russian military statements. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, I don't think it's a proper name. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Wait to merge the article, more information will appear in the comming days. Also the title is a proper name there are dozens of articles with similar names check the articles discussion page to see the reasoning why. XavierGreen ( talk) 16:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Please remove this pic immediately. I remember seeing this pic before it was appeared on Wikipedia/Commons, and I suspect that the licensing terms described on the pic page may not be true. We must confirm that the uploader is really the creator of the pic. Unless we do that let's remove it from the article. NerdyNSK ( talk) 10:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Война в Южной Осетии - уроки (in Russian). -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Tskhinvali&diff=231204556&oldid=231204026 -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
And again. I request protection of Battle of Tskhinvali from the newly registered users. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The prediction about attack on Tskhinvali rendered accurate. some other unsupported news:
toxygen ( talk) 11:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
~~Those two captured US military advisers were black people. Being black does not make you American.
Russia says that it has 18 dead. Are they revising the previous statement of 21 or is it 21+18 They also said that 14 are missing.
Why isn't it 21 KIA 150 WIA 14 MIA 2 POW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 11:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it is about 21+18 dead + 14 missing. But it's unclear from the news entry. Seeking for another source... -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 12:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
As we all know there are Georgian Azerbaijanis fighting along the Georgian side right now, but according to Azerbaijani media 2 volunteers have been killed and several wounded. I believe we need to add this in the infobox, Casualties and losses on the Georgian side. Any thoughts on this? Baku87 ( talk) 11:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This Stratfor article (you must be a member to see it), dated 20 March 2008, talks about the possibility of "a major confrontation between Moscow and Tbilisi, but also between Moscow and Washington". Would it be useful to note it somewhere? Perhaps a paragraph like " Stratfor on 20 March 2008 published an analysis in which it talked about the possibility of...etc". NerdyNSK ( talk) 11:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Str1977 repeatedly add Putin as commander of Russian forces. This is a lie. Somebody tell him about 3RR rule and vandalism. I agree to add Putin while we add George W. Bush and Condoleeza Rice to Georgian side. -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 11:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I would like to change the sentence within the introduction from,
which considers the Georgian operation to be an act of genocide
to,
the only country which claims the Georgian operation to be an act of genocide
Does anyone have any article that any other country claims it to be "genocide" ?? PlanetCeres ( talk) 11:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia does not claim Georgian operation to be genocide. It claims Georgians commited genocide while doing the operation. IMHO, if at least tenth of the claims will prove true, Saakishvili will be very lucky to avoid War Crimes Tribunal. ( Poligraf ( talk) 11:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC))
Please, just post to the actual question. PlanetCeres ( talk) 11:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
My POV because it's important to me: Don't get me wrong, my heart sincerely goes out to the dead, injured, traumatized, their families, and their friends. I am angered that the children and other innocents don't know why this is happening. And, that they will be relying on Georgian and Russian information to figure it out in the future. So, the hate will keep on going. I am angered at all sides for this conflict. And, consider it all of their failures and crimes. Please don't reply to this POV. PlanetCeres ( talk) 12:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Please add this video of a Russian air strike in which the BBC journalists were cought to the external links section. Thanks, -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 11:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
How about videos from Russia Today? E.g. U.S. citisen POV, witnessing Ossetian Holocaust: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o This page: War in Georgia obviously has pro-Russian content, but also contains numerous news film links. You could filter out propaganda, but you should not ignore facts. Alexander.Vasiljev ( talk) 15:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
On August 8, Russia responded by moving additional troops across its official border with Georgia, bringing ground forces into South Ossetia and Abkhazia and launching airstrikes on targets elsewhere in Georgia. The Russian government stated its justification for entering Georgian territory was to protect Russian citizens (since most South Ossetians hold Russian passports[20][21]) and its peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia (Russia alleges 12 of its peacekeepers were killed by the initial Georgian attack and says it considers the Georgian operation to be an act of a "genocide" against Ossetians[22]), and to enforce the peacekeeping mandate given to it by the UN. Russian ships have begun patrolling Georgian Black Sea ports, although Russia denies this is a blockade.[23]
OK, so it's Russia. Now someone add that Georgia considers it a Russian invasion and occupation of their country, with the aims of "regime change" if not an outright annexation - and that they are "at war" with Russia. (With sources, of course.) May be in the same paragraph, and actually should precede's russia's reasoning because the war takes place there and not in Russia. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)'
Remove POV tag when done (I'm going now). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 11:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Other news: Medvedev: Operations in Georgia Almost Complete, EU-Russia relations in jeopardy as bombs hit Tbilisi. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 12:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, there's (I think) no word(!) about the ant-Kokoity (and the official one, according to the international recognition) South Ossetian government of Dmitry Sanakoyev - whose office was targetted by the separatist artillery fire just before the war and who was a target of an landmine attack in July 2008, too. The Provisional Administration of South Ossetia controlled about 1/3 of the province before the large-scale conflict started - but the article and the infobox says implies the separatist Republic of South Ossetia represents and always represented whole of South Ossetia. (Similar case with Abkhazia.) The bias is really heavy. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Somebody removed the detailed Caucasus mineral map from the article and I inserted it again. If you have objections, raise them here. NerdyNSK ( talk) 11:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
For example sentence number two in the article: "Since Georgia gained its independence from the Soviet Union in 1992, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, smaller territories within Georgia, which have been de facto independent nations since both fought and won wars of independence against Georgia in the early 1990's." This sentence is not proper English and is false. Georgia became independent from Russia April 9th 1991. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.224.21 ( talk) 12:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Uh, the exact sequence of events in the early 90's is insifigicant, and the exact political arrangement of states in the USSR is largely irrelevant , except 1. The USSR did what Russia wanted, so really when anything was done, it was done for Russia.
2. When you say "georgia was a part of USSR", it would be more accurate to say a. it was captured and occupied, and b. it was Russians doing the capturing and occupying. Because this then leads to the situation with Georgia vs Abkhazia, S Ossetia and Russia.
http://www.osradio.ru/?ent=11862 toxygen ( talk) 12:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Here is the official transcript of the Lavrov's interview for BBC (from the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs): http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/f68cd37b84711611c3256f6d00541094/f87a3fb7a7f669ebc32574a100262597?OpenDocument. Please add the link to the appropriate section of the page. I believe it's worth adding this link, for people how unable to watch the video. Enerjazzer ( talk)
I wish to raise doubt to the use of wording "separatists", not because doubting this word is negative, but doubt whether this word is accurate. The Ossetian separatism is probably not a true one because they did not fight for separation of North Ossetian. They are fighting for separation of South Ossetian but they still claim consider Ossetian, not South Ossetian is a whole. Is there better wording to describe the people when their true intent is to become puppet instead of independent (at least having independent constitution without higher law)?-- Kittyhawk2 ( talk) 13:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
They want to separate from Georgia, which is their nation-state de jure, which makes them separatists by definition.
The photo labeled "Demonstration against the Russian intervention outside the Russian embassy in Tbilisi on August 8, 2008." can be considered biased (anti-Russian).
So why not to place another photo as well ( http://img.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/11/picket/picture.jpg) with label like "Demonstration against the war outside the Georgian embassy in Moscow on August 11, 2008.". Source article, in Russian: http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/11/picket/ Enerjazzer ( talk) 12:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC) Enerjazzer
Here is the archived discussion regarding the force size table that I have restored to the article several times. Jim Furtado has removed it at least twice since the discussion with this diff calling my restoration "sneaky vandalism" and this diff referring to the reference discussion. I just found that he filed a 3RR report on me, in addition to accusing me of vandalism, sock-puppetry, and racism.
Now, I don't care if the table stays or goes, but I think that the earlier decision that it should stay should stand unless it is decided otherwise. Can I get some input? -- Elliskev 12:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there was enough discussion to put it back in. 3R not justified. Rediscuss maybe. PlanetCeres ( talk) 12:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This source agrees with the count of nine. I have changed the count and added the source. -- Elliskev 18:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Jim Furtado has removed it again. I'm not going to restore it because I don't want to waste my time wading through another load of bullshit diffs that have nothing to do with anything in another bullshit 3RR report against me. -- Elliskev 01:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone please remove all unrelevent information and completely lock the article to keep vandals like manchurian candidate and whatever other vandals are pushing this ghost recon thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lowsgt87 ( talk • contribs) 12:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I rewrote the lead and the warbox. Some of it was uncited, some parts were too long and some were plainly unreadable. Suggestions and objections welcome. Thanks. Naurmacil ( talk) 13:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Just because Putin/Medevev refer the Russian forces as "peacekeepers" (which is nonsence as the forces are not sanctioned by the UN or any other respected international organization), WP is not bound to do the same. Hapsala ( talk) 13:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Any reaction from Belgrade? So far the Serbian govnt has been quite loyal to the Kremlin, but this might not be exaclty what the Serbian nationalists were dreaming of. Hapsala ( talk) 13:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It's Georgia vs separatists and their separatist governments.
Pro-Georgian (Georgian) South Ossetian Abkhazian governments (along with territory controlled before the war, so not some virtual stuff) are Provisional Administration of South Ossetia (merged by some genius with the South Ossetia article - time to revert this) and the Government of the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia. (Separatist entities being Republic of South Ossetia and... oh well, no article, but should be Republic of Abkhazia.)
Please remember this. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 13:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Who deleted South Ossetia from the Location? The war started as invasion of Georgia to South Ossetia. Kostan1 ( talk) 13:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there is another misunderstanding. What exactly is mentioned as Location:South Ossetia, Georgia - something like South Ossetia and Georgia (the rest of the country) or something like Chicago, Illinois (just an example to show actual inclusion a comma use may represent)? If we are clear on this one, it will be easier. -- Tone 14:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Kostan1 will not be troubling us for another 48 hours. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 14:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I put POV tag as some other users insisted (through edit-warring) on "South Ossetia, Georgia". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/world/europe/12georgia.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
maybe some links can be replaced with this.
http://mk.ru/blogs/MK/2008/08/10/society/365780/
It seems to imply rather heavy casualties during one phase of the Russian attack, so heavy that they had to retreat from the city, regroup, and come back later with more force. Google translate can sometimes muck it up, but could someone with better Russian help me understand this? 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 13:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
I see. I brought it here for attention because it is being used in the Battle of Tskhinvali article.
70.131.218.57 (
talk) 15:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
As Georgia retreats from its offensive in South Ossetia, it claims that it is defending itself from "Russian aggression."[24] Russia responded to the charge in the United Nations, pointing out that Georgia had started the conflict.[25]
I think it is unacceptable. The Georgian POV is they responded to the continuing separatist provocations (including artillery attacks and roadside bombings) from the territory protected by the Russian "peacekeepers". Here, the Georgian fault is "pointed out in the United Nations" by Russia, except even without these citation marks. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 14:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Where is the information about Russian air strikes on civilian apartment buildings in Gori Georgia? Why is this information not included in the article? Why is this article using Russian sources which are obvious propaganda and anti-Russian POV? Where are the neutral users who can monitor the article? Why are some odd anti-Georgian claims taken from Russian sources and some not even referenced? After this tragedy, isn't it clear that Russia is a directly involved party and using their new agencies like Lenta.ru are not acceptable for NPOV guidelines? What Russian peacekeepers? This assumption is dead as of August 6. If you are using Russian sources, why not Georgian? In fact, Georgian news agencies are hacked by Russian government and many of them do not work (civil.ge as not yet been updated since its web site was hacked). Please monitor the POV pushing initiatives here by some users and limit Russian POV sources due to their obvious bias and anti-Georgian intent. There are plenty of western sources: CNN, BBC, Washinton Times, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, etc. So far the article is unbalanced and overly using Russian biased sources, which makes this article not in compliance with Wikipedia NPOV guidelines. We Georgian users are unable to monitor this article or add any additional info due to the non-stop Russian bombardment. As I was writing this massage, couple of explosions were heard. So we are unable, in this state of war and hardship to offer our own input into this massive wave of information, most of which is run by Russian users which use Russian POV and bias sources. I appeal to Wikipedias with neutral views to limit Russian bias on this article and take references from neutral sources. I hope this carnage of our civilians will end soon and we will be able to contribute to Wikipedia. Iberieli ( talk) 14:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
In Gori was only one bomb, but this bomb hit an armament depot near apartments. Ru magister ( talk) 18:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
[46] be useful (for example for inclusion in the humanitarian part) or do you think that it is biased and/or not necessary? OelnJa ( talk) 14:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
books and news organization are not advertisements because they back claims being made in the article as REFERENCES. If you were to include external links to NY Times or Time or Newsweek or whathaveyou then they would be advertisements too. If you find something worthy of mention then please cite it, while also rememebering that youtube is not a reputable source. Likewise vesti.ru. Certainly if you have videos to cite a point IN the article then please go ahead and cite them. ( talk)14:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I rewrote the lead again, adding four parts to it: first, Georgia's reason for its military operation against South Ossetia. Second, South Ossetia's denials. Third, Georgia's ceasefire. Fourth, Putin's promise for a "logical conclusion". These pretty much sum up the conflict. I also expanded Russia's comment in the United Nations, which points out Georgia started the war - after what Georgia claims are provocations by South Ossetians. That's all. Naurmacil ( talk) 14:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I have tried several times to keep the date formats consistent in this article. Before I go at it again, can I get some input as to the preferred format? I originally chose dd Month yyyy unlinked. Suggestions? -- Elliskev 15:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
(In addition, someone wrote Georgia claimed it lost 180 soldiers in the city, linking to the articles that didn't even contain number "180".)
Please wtach this page for the further reports of the babies "knived" by bloodthirsty Georgian genociders. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
These reports of bloodthirsty Georgian genociders running over old women with tanks and "kniving" babies has just been edited into the main War in South Ossetia article, can someone please remove TheCheeseManCan ( talk) 01:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposal: Create a section on use of mercenaries in this conflict
The Russian FM alleges use of Azerbaijani and Ukrainian mercenaries whilst the President of Georgia alleged in a BBC interview "Several hundred Chechen mercenaries had crossed through the tunnel to bolster Russian forces" Both claims appear in several interviews. and perhaps deserving of their own section. 86.143.189.22 ( talk) 15:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
To make editors relieved a bit :) Garret Beaumain ( talk) 15:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC) [47]
As it has none yet. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 15:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"Civil.ge server is under permanent DDOS attack, therefore it may fail to respond again. Please subscribe to the Google Groups mailing list, in order to receive civil.ge news updates. Civil.Ge blog operates on http://civilgeorgia.blogspot.com."-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 15:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also, give it a redirect from Civil.Ge (or vice-versa). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
2008 South Ossetia war doesn't reflect the reality. - SSJ ☎ 16:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"War in Georgia (2008)" (there more wars in Georgia). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What is the war called in the news mostly? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
A proper historian would refer to this article as the Russo-Georgian War. Many news articles are refering to it as the russian georgian war, but use past wars as an example. Russo-Swedish Wars Russo-Turkish Wars Russo-Kazan Wars the list goes on and on. XavierGreen ( talk) 16:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently it is time to start Russian invasion of Georgia (2008) Tamokk ( talk) 16:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there any statement of the Moldovan officials? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.64.72.252 ( talk) 16:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Not Azeris or officially Azerbaijani forces, so no Azerbaijan flag please. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Naurmacil removed my previous edit and explained: "remove war propaganda - a UK source claims they're fighting propaganda. What makes you think the UK source isn't propaganda itself? It's unlikely, but it's purely POV."
So what is not a propaganda? However, please notice that both sides accuses "the other side" of using propaganda. So it is clear that at least one side uses propaganda, then it is enough to talk about a propaganda war. In addition it was UK website of Reuters. Reuters is not a reliable source? Please answer. I decided to rewrite it a bit and added again.
Besides, it would be great to extend the 'information warfare' paragraph because today it is almost as important as real warfare. Kieraf ( talk) 16:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
One more note to Propaganda Section. Georgian President Saakashvili is often appealing to Georgian in English, while the only official language in Georgia is Georgian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa ( talk • contribs) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be good to note that Georgia declared martial law. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 16:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
And also to say that Russia promised to "punish" the Georgians and repeatedly called their leadership "criminals". And what's up with the Prime Minister Vladimir Putin of Russia had promised working with Georgia and other participants of the conflict for a "logical conclusion" of its peacekeeping mission.[25] upbeat ending? What? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
GORI, Georgia, Aug 11 (Reuters) - At least six Georgian attack helicopters bombed targets in the region around the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, a Reuters witness said.
The action appeared to countermand a Georgian declaration of an end to military activity over the separatist region.
The reporter said the helicopters flew from Georgia proper and attacked targets just over the de facto boundary with South Ossetia, sending dark smoke billowing into the air.
Russia had earlier accused Georgia of shelling Russian troops, which drove Georgian forces from Tskhinvali this week. [49]
It is unclear whether "Margarita Antidze" witnessed or it is another reporter. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia has been conducting an ongoing cyber warfare against Georgian websites. Georgia: Russia 'conducting cyber war' 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Obviously this conflict has been boiling for some time, but is there an agreed upon incident that caused the current situation we have now? -- PiMaster3 talk 16:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Not "Ossetian military", but "South Ossetian separatist paramilitary". "Crossfire" is a wrong word - both were firing at each other's positions and villages, while Georgian vehicles were also repeatedly blasted by roadside bombs (including in an assasination attempt against the local leader, whose office at a police station was later also hit by separatist artillery). In short - increasing clashes (the Russian "peacekeeping" forces did not do anything, maybe except arming separatists, flying aircraft over Georgian territory, and shooting down Georgian drones over Georgia). In the end the Georgians offically called uniliteral ceasefire, but separatists allegedly attacked once again - at this point Georgians went all ballistic, and Russia invaded to "enforce peace", they say (and since then they do warkeeping despite the Georgian withdrawal and ceasefire offers). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Only a day after he compared the Russian doctrine with that of Adolf Hiler, Sweden's Foreign secretary and Chairman of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe Carl Bildt goes to Georgia in a bid to bring Russia and Georgia to the negotiating table. [51] Hapsala ( talk) 16:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It harms the image of wikipedia. -- Leladax ( talk) 17:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
'nuff said. -- Leladax ( talk) 17:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree - this section should be completely rewritten and updated, changed into something else and elsewhere, or even deleted. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't all discussion on the English version of the Wikipedia be in English? Jon ( talk) 17:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it more now? Gori alone was 50,000 (and it's reportedly battle zone now, and for sure half-empty when it was bombed), so I think it must be more than 20,000 total now. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It should not be called “ 2008 Russian invasion of Georgia” or “ 2008 Russian-Georgian War”?-- MaGioZal ( talk) 17:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I like 2008 Georgia War. -- Tocino 17:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
First it 70 soldiers dead and 150 civilians (Georgian claim) Then 300 soldiers and civilians dead (Georgian claim) Then 300 dead, most soldiers (Georgian claim) Then 200 soldiers and 100 civilians (Georgian claim) then 100 soldiers and 200 civilians (Georgian claim) and now it is 52 soldiers and 40 civilians killed (Georgian claim)
What gives?
You guys have put information about 4 aircraft Russia has lost but there is no information about Georgian units lost , I read from varius reports and pages that claim all sort of aircraft from Su-25 to Mi-8 to Mi-24 to UH-1 that was downed by russian airforce , why is this not posted?
http://interfax.ru/news.asp?id=26169
12 georgian tanks destroyed , and another report of a repelled attack where 19 were destroyed , but there is no information about it.
There is also no information about russian tanks destroyed.
They keep on changing, from 300(mostly soldiers) to 300(Mostly Civilians) to 200 soldiers to whatever it is now. Anybody have any solid info? 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 17:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
What is now is "the latest bodycount" by the Health Minister. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Mkays, thank you.
There was this guy who wrote a new section here that probably did it. He seemed very pro-Russian. If, indeed, the 52 soldiers and 40 civilians killed is the Georgian claim, then it stays until new info is found. 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 18:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Tskhinvali&diff=231268392&oldid=231255757
He calls it "Details", "Accusations of genocide", "Tskhinvali Destroyed", and "Quotations during the battle" (separatist tales of bloodthirsty Georgians only). (Names of the chapters.)
My version free of propaganda stories (but still including the separatist claim of 1,400 killed).
Any mod here: Please tell him to stop or something, thanks. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 17:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Any mod: Please lock this article. Top Gun is now calling my objections to the war propaganda tales "complaints about the genocide", he is seriouly treating this stuff like confirmed facts. I can't handle him alone unless i play an edit war with him, which would be almost as silly. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Please also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Captain_Obvious_and_his_crime-fighting_dog#Tskhinvali
I want revert this crap anymore, but I hope someone will take care of this. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I am inserting the reports of 2,000 people killed which is being reported by CNN, BBC and other mayor news stations, I don't think their into war propaganda, for this conflict at least. Everything I have inserted into the article has been referenced. User Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog is trying to push his own point of view which he himself admited. ( Top Gun)
I think the 2,000 claim is fine, but large tracts besides that do sound exactly like propaganda. make sure that you don't go overboard on hearsay, but keep the 2,000 mark as i HAVE heard that in many places.
70.131.218.57 (
talk) 18:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
Most Russian sources, CNN, Fox News, Reuters, the AP, etc, etc. Not saying it is correct, but it has been backed up with sources. The stuff about knifing babies and tanks running down old people has only been reported to Russian sources and can't be in any way verified. 70.131.218.57 ( talk) 18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Shane
For example, The Sunday Times source:
Ordinary apartment blocks were pounded as the remains of Georgian tanks struck by rocket-propelled grenades stood burning in the middle of the street. [52]
Top Gun "writes":
Ordinary apartment blocks were pounded as the remains of Georgian tanks struck by rocket-propelled grenades stood burning in the middle of the streets.
Someone PLEASE do something about this guy. Like "go away". -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
So. Can I remove the stolen content - and keep it (and him) away from now on? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 18:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
According to Reuters:
Well isn't that interesting. Especially since this is coming from Reuters, there's no accusing it of being Russian propaganda. Looks like Georgia's plan to play victim is utterly failing on all levels. Crazytrain89 ( talk) 18:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The second opinion is not on topic. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 18:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian forces have taken the town of Gori and invaded Georgia proper. Russia Forces Move to Within 35 Miles of Tbilisi Monday, August 11, 2008 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 16:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Summing up: There is Reuters vs. BBC / Welt / DPA / CNN / AP / AFP ... -- DanteRay ( talk) 18:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The Reuters seems to be an old one at this point. Look it up on recent news. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 18:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Also according to CNN, the Georgians now doesn't really know whats happening in the air and land. The statements from the Georgian side must be taken from this point on with a doze of salt - "A U.S. military official told CNN that Russian attacks on Georgia -- including radars and communication systems -- have devastated the country's command and control system to the point where Georgian leaders may not have a clear idea of the situation on the ground.". Source:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.russia/index.html
Aedile (
talk) 18:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Note, however, that the Russians claim to have attacked Senaki, in this report, at the other end of Georgia. That is an advance beyond the autonomous districts. So DanteRay may be rash, unless of course this is a one-way bet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
BBC on Reuters side now. "Diplomatic sources who visited Gori on Monday evening later told the BBC that the town had not been taken. " ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm) Aedile ( talk) 20:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4642/turkfk4.png
Turkish vehicle destroyed in georgia
It is a well known fact that Georgia has Turkish vehicles.
Is anyone able to create/obtain maps of the conflict zones based on the news reports? I realize this might be hard to next to impossible because of conflicting information, sketchy details, and the rapid pace of the conflict, but if anyone is able to do this it would be much appreciated. MattW93 ( talk) 18:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The guy standing in pic 3 is clearly not the guy in pic 4. they are similar, but not the same. I don't know why the dead guy in pic 1 and 2 is face down in pic 3. Maybe pic 3 was taken before 1&2. I don't know why the dead guy is so clean and with no apparent wounds. What is wrong with pic 5? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 18:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
SORRY I THINK SOME TOPIC WAS DELETED!
Anyone got a public source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 19:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't the image be changed to also show the Russian North Ossetia, which the South Ossetians reportedly would rather merge with? 86.56.43.231 ( talk) 19:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello,
According to Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment about Georgia, the Order of Battle of the Georgian Army is the following:
Of these army formations, those marked with bold text would be in the area of operations on August 7-8. These I think should be included in the OOB section for Georgia, and perhaps the same with the 3rd Infantry Brigade (of course, this is only one source, but should be taken into consideration anyway).
BTW, I knew that a similar list is also on the Military of Georgia page, but better with confirmation from a second source. Realismadder ( talk) 19:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Im confused, are there any peace talks going on between the 2 countries right now? and is Russia advancing to the capital? Yuhi33 ( talk) 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
And, once regular Russian units pulled into the region, Georgia was left with no chance of victory whatsoever, as the whole of its army is roughly equivalent to one of Russia's motorized rifle divisions.
Therefore, since Georgia's projected blitzkrieg failed, it has lost the war - that much is obvious. On the other hand, it has clearly gained some political success, as Russia faces being labeled an aggressor by the international community.
Moscow indeed found itself in a viscous dilemma once Georgian forces invaded the self-proclaimed republic. Neither of its options was acceptable. It could either let down South Ossetians and be condemned by North Ossetians as a traitor, or begin an invasion of a sovereign state without a UN mandate and be condemned by the world at large as an aggressor. There was no other option available.
Russia chose the latter evil, wisely estimating it as the lesser of the two. It is preferable to be labeled an aggressor than a traitor. Incidentally, Russia is one of the five lucky nations having the right of veto in the UN Security Council - the only body authorized to define a country's actions as "aggression."
Aedile (
talk) 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
or http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/areas/globalconflicts.htm (Russian peacekeepers was stayed instead of UN, CIS mandate was adopted as UN mandate.); http://eng.expert.ru/news/2008/06/19/geor_mir/ (this is the same mandate - see link before) Ru magister ( talk) 22:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unomig/index.html http://www.unomig.org/ Ru magister ( talk) 23:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This war isn't South Ossetia anymore. Perhaps we should call it a Georgian-Russian war? or is that too strong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.255.143.104 ( talk) 19:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Some of the sources are already gone. Please care on whether the source you're using will still exist in some weeks (e.g. news.yahoo.com and any AP-Newsfeed disappears within 60 days) and make sure not to use dynamic links which change frequently. Thanks. -- Matthiasb ( talk) 19:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The source is currently only in Russian but if it's true (as I hope) it'll appear elsewhere soon. Alæxis ¿question? 19:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Some interesting notes by a swedish crew on site:
"A young colleague at one of Tbilis newspapers ensured us that she saw two bombs being dropped from a russian airplane at 4:00 AM in the morning in her neighborhood. However, we found no trace of any aerial attack there."
"As a large military transport flew over central Tbilisi on monday, terrified people started screaming that the russians were attacking. DN's pictures showed that the plane was in fact american."
"After getting reports of aerial attacks on both civilian and military targets in Tbilisi three nights on a row, DN tried to find one of these attacked areas with no success. We were told that the areas were "off limits""
Of course, this is open to interpretation and I'm not making any statement by this.
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=148&a=814441
The newspaper is one of the biggest in Sweden so I'd say it's legitimate as a source.
Any swedes are welcome to verify that the translations are correct.
http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/08/11/afx5309917.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4507980.ece It's a full rout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.2.142.97 ( talk • contribs)
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has alleged that Georgia is responsible for a "complete genocide."
What is complete genocide? Every representative of the group of people the genocide is directed at - killed? Is there a partial genocide? Could this be a mistranslation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk • contribs)
Footage that appears in this BBC report - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552921.stm - around the 10 second mark - seems to show a red-over-green-over-red flag, appearing quite similar to the Flag of Transnistria. I seem to remember seeing suggestions that Transnistrians were volunteering to go to S Ossetia. This footage appears to suggest that Transnistrians may indeed have reached Tskhinvali, though that's impossible to prove just from the footage. But might it back up other potential sources? Is it relevant to the article? I think it might be interesting to add to information about pro-Ossetian volunteers, but needs more corroboration. What does everyone think? ZedderZulu ( talk) 20:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Could anyone go through the entire article and correct the typo?
Russian General Staff Second-in-Commander is Alexander Nogovitsyn, not Alexander Nagovitsyn.
Another Typo
The fourth reference: "Human Rights Watch Counts South Ossetian Casualties, Displaced", Deutsche Wille (11 August 2008). Retrieved on 2008-08-11." It is not "Deutsche Wille" but "Deutsche Welle". I can't change it myself -- DanteRay ( talk) 20:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Changed Minir to Minor. King ( talk) 00:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
This user is doing a number of edits that are very close to vandalism. For example, he simply replaces "South Ossetian separatists shelled Georgian-populated villages" by "Georgian artillery shelled Ossetian villages" here, although sited source tells: "Gunfire delivered by South Ossetian armed units..." and so on. Please check this. Thank you. Biophys ( talk) 21:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
We need to protect this article from edits by newly registered users.
The August 11: Russian advances section contains two images that are claimed by Daritto7117 ( talk · contribs) to be his ("I created this work entirely by myself"), yet they are from two different fronts. Image:2749628284 40df4d2987.jpg and Image:Russian Troops ISO2008.jpg. I find this dubious. -- SVTCobra ( talk) 21:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It is clearly time to rename this article to Russia-Georgia War or something similar. It is no longer about South Ossetia. It's a war between Russia and Georgia.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 20:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
This should be named 2008 armed conflict in Georgia. Calling it a war already is POV and smells like sensational journalism (suitable for headlines), as many major engagements took and are taking place outside Ossetia. Sinking the Georgian missile boat in Georgia's territorial waters (?) was not done to help Ossetia but either in self-defense or as part of intimidation, nor is the bombing of Georgian military targets throughout the country situated far from Ossetia proper, or conducting armed conflict in the Kodori Valley's gorge in eastern Abkhazia, with th participation of Abkhazia Air Force such as it is. Russia never declared war, either, and neither has Georgia, or the self-proclaimed governments of the breakaway republics. A "state of war" was proclaimed by Georgia's legislature for 15 days -- but that legalese is not exactly congruent with declaring war in international law. Why change it now? Because the proposed alternative is more apt, more NPOV and accurate, and there is no tenure for holding on to bad information on Wikipedia. Also, it has been argued elsewhere (on pl wiki) that other Wikipedias are calling it that, so why not us. Time to fix it, and start fixing it here, so it will be noticed and fixed everywhere. That would be careful editing with an eye for the consequences of casting information on Wikipedia for others. -- Mareklug talk 22:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I move that we change the name to either "Georgian-Russian War (2008), or alternately, the "2008 Caucasian War". The conflict has obviously expanded beyond South Ossetia not simply in terms of the front lines moving into Georgia, but also how Abkhazia is not directly involved with Ossetia but seized on the opportunity. And what of Ukrainain involvement?-- Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici ( talk) 22:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
What is a war if not armed conflict Flick fliss floss ( talk) 04:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Given that the Russians have advanced far into Georgian territory beyond Ossetia, opening a second front from Abkhazia, shouldn't this article be renamed to Russo-Georgian war (2008) or Russian invasion of Georgia (2008)? Martintg ( talk) 22:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
SO. Are we renaming this or not? -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 23:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
{{ Refimprovesect}} {{ rewrite}} {{ update-section}} After several years of dispute over the status of South Ossetia, Georgian troops (reportedly with Headquarters at Tirdznisi) conducted an operation to dislodge Russian peacekeepers from their positions, and occupy South Ossetia, notably its capital Tskhinvali.
Georgian forces advanced into South Ossetia along three axes:
[3]
In the western Ossetia-Georgia border sector
In the southern Ossetia-Georgia border sector
During the 9-10 August the South Ossetian and Russian forces that had recovered from the initial Georgian offensive were able to bypass the Georgian troops in the Liakhvi valley from the northwest by advancing over Height 1134, and with a pincer offensive retaking Tskhinvali from the western outskirts of the city, cutting off Georgian troops in the valley to the north from their lines of communication, and forcing a general withdrawal of Georgian troops. To complete the encirclement, Russian troops occupied Height 1475 east of Tskhinvali, thereby also securing line of fire over the Prisi - Dmenisi road that runs along the northern sector of the Georgian front.
A separate sector of advance penetrated some 10 km (6.2 mi) into the Southern Ossetian territory along the Eastern Prone stream valley west of Liakhvi River.
In the eastern Ossetia-Georgia border sector
Georgian troops advanced on a broad front to a depth of 15–20 km (9.3–12.4 mi), occupying Akhalgor (Leningori) as far as Churpia stream, a source of the
Ksani River, and after negotiating the mountainous terrain, entered the
Liakhvi River valley from the east, seeking to link up with the forces advancing in the central sector of the southern border advance at Kemerti, and seeking to occupy Beloti, another of the larger cities in South Ossetia. This effectively cut South Ossetia in two, with the eastern third being cut off from the rest of the territory.
Salvage what you want (or not - nothing of this was sourced, after all). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 20:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)