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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Ok, a map of the first attacks was posted in the article, but it is small and lacks detail. Could someone create a bigger, more detailed map based on [1]? I would have done it myself, but I don't know Russian.
Good morning. It may seem not overall important, but there is a typo in the word "Lithuania" at the bottom of section no. 5.5. Please someone fix it. 89.161.15.229 ( talk) 17:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why not be bold and fix it yourself? The page isn't locked. - Darco ( talk)
The article says "At 00:53 on August 8, Georgian forces began shelling the city" but does not give a timezone. We need to say the timezone apart from the time. Are the times in the article in UTC or local time? NerdyNSK ( talk) 02:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia conflict: Roar of war as jets fill the air - The source says only about unknown jets flying near Gori, and nothing more. However, in article, it "proves" Gori and Kaleri bombing. -- Eraser ( talk) 03:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Is this where Georgians live? And/or pro-Georgian Ossetians? Anyone knows? - Pieter_v ( talk) 03:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If you feel that Germany's response to the hostilities should be added to the article:
Federal Foreign Office, 08/08/2008 - No official translation provided.
-- 78.54.129.44 ( talk) 03:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
There are the lake of information about period from 00:53 till 04:45 in the Article.
"At 00:53 on August 8, Georgian forces began shelling the city, which allegedly included the route along which refugees were being moved.[27] As the day progressed, Russian media reported that at least fifteen civilians had been killed in Tskhinvali.[20] At 04:45, Georgian State Minister for Reintegration, Temuri Yakobashvili announced that Tskhinvali was nearly surrounded, and that Georgia controlled two-thirds of South Ossetia's territory.[28] "
Comments of the civilians on the BBC "Have to say" page:
"Georgia says: "I offer you an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks"?!! Don't trust them!!! Army use heavy guns and MLRS "GRAD" against civilians: they are attacking Tskhinval right now. Words to you at the morning, swords to us at the night. Mikhail, Tskhinval, South Ossetia"
Confirmation BBC video: night MLRS Georgian fire against Tskhinval [2]
-- Niggle ( talk) 03:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
What exactly is the issue? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It would be better to use original information from UN page:
The first meeting (Russian request) http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2008/sc9417.doc.htm
The second one (Georgian request) http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2008/sc9418.doc.htm
-- Niggle ( talk) 04:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I do not think we should describe "ethnicity" of people who live in South Ossetia. However if we do, we should indicate the percentage of "Ossetian", "Georgian", "Russians", and so on. Right now, one might think that all people who live there are Ossetians. An if we are talking about citizenship, not about ethnicity, all of them are either Russian citizens or Georgia citizens (the South Ossetia itself is not an internationally recognized state). Another important question is this: what percentage of people who live there hold Russian passports, and are they also citizens of Georgia? Biophys ( talk) 04:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean by "potentially misleadin"? This is important because Ossetians themselves seek integrity with Ossetians in Russian region of North Ossetia. Does not it clearly show that this is the important factor, and therefore should be mentioned? Historically, ethnical factor is the main reason of wars in Caucasus, the same about this region, especially if you take into consideration the prehistory of the conflict (before Soviet Union Ossetia was not a part of Georgia, and after the USSR, there was a conflict of 1991-1992) -- Victor V V ( talk) 07:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Not "about half", but more than half of inhabitants of South Ossetia have a Russian passport (according to Russian sources - about 90%, and this figure is more accurate, by the way, because BBC does not give percentage. 90% is more than half). -- Victor V V ( talk) 07:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, the references to the Cossacks are confusing. It is not immediately apparent which side they are on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.163.28 ( talk) 04:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I added a photo from 2004 conflicts showing a Georgian firing at South Ossetians, while in the caption I said that the pic was from 2004. A user removed the photo saying it's not about the 2008 conflict. I added the pic again, this time changing the caption to say explicitly that it is an example from a previous conflict, in addition to the date (2004). I think the photo is relevant, useful, informative, and adds value to the article, and I think it should stay. If we get a similar photo of combat action in 2008 I will be happy to think replacing it, or keeping both, but I think this 2004 is all we have showing actual combat between Georgians and Ossetians. I recommend keeping the photo, and I would like to know what you think. NerdyNSK ( talk) 04:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[Perhaps this would come under a heading of "deep, deep background" (or the "religious dimension"), but the assertion that Georgia (who is an ally of the United States--an iteration of the "king of the South") was attempting to bring these areas under its control; and that Russia (an iteration of the "king of the North") responded to the military moves of Georgia, brings this conflict within the context of the fractal Prophecies of Daniel 11:40. It will not help the situation to ignore that fact or delete this information.] Michael J. Cecil ( talk) 09:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'll add more thoughts when I think of them. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 05:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
INTERFAX.RU - Convoy of the wounded, coming from South Ossetia, was attacked by Georgian armed forces, as was told to "Interfax" by Igor Konashenkov. "Thanks to the staff of the OSCE mission was agreed to evacuate the wounded. However, the stories of the wounded themselves relayed that when the convoy reached the road leading from South Ossetia, Georgian artillery opened fire on the convoy," - Konashenkov said.
Although evacuation routes do exist, sources report that it is difficult to leave the reagion.
Interfax also reported that villagers are under attack by the Georgian foces, being taunted and then killed after seeing their homes destroyed.
Ossetian led news forum, cominf.org, updated periodically, reported that civilians were being gunned down after fleeing into forests for protection. This supports the claims that Georgia is actively conducting ethnic cleansing of the people.
Also, upon entry into Tskhinvali, Georgian tanks opened fire on civilan homes and buildings to continue the bombardment of the city. Very few buildings remain intact. This was also reported by Interfax, and from victims who were able to send SMS/text messages to families in North Ossetia.
No author or links and highly biased. ... The preceeding should be deleted. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 05:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
someone should clean up the links. I cleaned up #8 because there was a ref tag error, but my info doesn't look right. Also the russian links should say (Russian), like so. The first one doesn't, and others may not either. Lihaas ( talk) 05:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed in fact someone changed "12 dead Russian soldiers" to "12 dead Russian Peace Keepers." Are they peace keepers? Were they trying to keep the peace are were the shooting at the Georgians? I donno, it sorta reeks of bias 72.140.80.212 ( talk) 05:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia says casualties" are peacekeepers.
Anywyay, don't delete fact there were 500 Georgian peacekeers (and they are now engaged in warkeeping as much as the Russian ones, too). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I also noticed that the Russian positions are being listed under "International Reactions". Shouldn't this be seperated out to a Combatant Section? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 05:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please use four of the little squiggly things at the top left of your keyboard at the end of a note like that.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 07:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
They are internationally recognised as peacekeepers since 1992 by Georgia, South Ossetia, the USA, UN, OSCE, CIS. They work as peacekeeper force there under official agreements signed by Georgia, South Ossetia and Russia on behalf of CIS. The US have stated several times that they value the mission that these peacekeepers do in breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhasia. What is there to discuss abou wording?? 85.202.113.34 ( talk) 13:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry
It should be more something among the BBC one:
SOUTH OSSETIA TIMELINE
More recent stuff before August (incuding the downing of Georgian drones and other incidents, like when Georgians caught are arrested Russians illegally transporting weapons). And yes, the war erupted on August 8 rather than August 1. Clashes are not war. (I think the rest should be mostly moved to Georgian-Osstian conflcit article.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
1991–1992 South Ossetia War, Georgian-Ossetian conflict, 2008 Georgia-Russia crisis, Georgia–Russia relations
There was also a War in Abkhazia (1992–1993) (and the conflict since, including the War in Abkhazia (1998) and the 2001 Kodori crisis) and the Georgian Civil War in general, too. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian resumed fierce air-strikes against Georgia. The central part of Gori is almost completely destroyed, with civilian casualties. The Kopitnari Airport near Kutaisi in west Georgia is being shelled right now. A Russian SU-25 hit a residential building in Senaki where the displaced persons from Abkhazia live. During the nighttime battles, Georgians report to have downed 3 Russian jets. The Georgian state minister Temur Iakobashvili said Georgia is waging a patriotic war against Russia. Source: [3]-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
‘Dozens’ Killed Poti, Senaki Bombings – Reports.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
As I have said before, Georgia claims that Israel has NOT frozen arms sales. I can't edit a locked article. Here are the links again, and one new one:
Contralya (
talk) 06:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Robert Hunter, U.S. ambassador to NATO under President Bill Clinton says that the conflict dooms Georgias chances of joining the alliance [8]. Not sure where to insert it in the article. Hjortefot ( talk) 07:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please help to expand the article on this battle. Add info on fighting to that page.
Here is the map of fights for August 9: http://forum.pravda.com.ua/read.php?2,203072164
I see a lot of editors are making an issue of background and so I figured this article which is already full of more recent events would help with some of these concerns. Information from that article should help expand the background section here. At the same time the article could use some revamping as well.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 08:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
OK. Now someone make a second paragraph on the events of the 2008 Georgia-Russia crisis events before August. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If you don't have any pics, please don't get killed while trying to get some.
This also applies to the other conlicts, btw (including the previous Georgian ones). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian military officials admitted to the loss of two jets, one SU-25 and one TU-22. Georgians claim thay have actually downed 10. The source is the Russian website lenta.ru: http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/09/planes/. Please add the info to the article. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If they were important they would have articles (like the armies have theirs). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
When articles are created and you get RELIABLE SOURCES these units are there, do an "Order of battle" section, and don't spam the box. See the Iraq War or Korean War or Gulf War or Bosnian War or whatever. If one had to list every unit, it would be crazy. Actually, even Russian Armies involved are borderline, but I can accpet THIS. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Are you slow or something? Read the title of this section until you understand. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
He does not stop! Hey, admins, are you there? -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 10:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
New to contributing to Wikipedia & talk pages. Hi from a newby! The following links may be useful for you [originally posted here]. Not sure if they (or some of them) belong in the "External Links" section. You can use the following information the best way you think, since I am inexperienced with the ins and outs of Wikipedia. Hope they're useful for you.
Here are some English language web links of news sources direct from Georgia and Russia that I have found (to be working):
GEORGIA:
Civil.ge daily news online
Server connection error from the following: [ http://www.news.ge/ ], [ http://www.media.ge/ ], [ http://www.interpressnews.ge/ ], [ http://internews.ge/ ], [ http://news.boom.ge/ ], [ http://www.rustavi2.com.ge/ ], [ http://www.liberty.ge/ ], [ http://forum.ge/ ]
RUSSIA:
ITAR-TASS news agency
Military News Agency by Interfax
Varvara's Voices from Russia blog with photos and translated news from Interfax
RIA Novosti news agency
Pravda news
Speckontheweb (
talk) 09:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned that external news links in English from the Georgian side are being removed and only displaying news links to Russian news media. This makes me mad - not because of my position on the war - but this is extremely biased to remove alternative new sources! The Messenger is certainly a mainstream newspaper, what reason can be given to remove it? Dobbs ( talk) 16:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Saakashvili Declares Martial Law: "South Ossetia was just a pretext used by Russia to launch a large scale military aggression against Georgia." -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Since Abkhazia is an autonomous republic in Georgia, they don't really have a border. My wording in the section isn't the greatest [9], but any rewording should not represent as two different countries. Balkan Fever 10:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"The war is also widely expected to slow down the economy of Georgia", which needs a citation? Are you kidding? Does anyone really think this war will boost Georgian economy? Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 11:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Standard & Poor's and Fitch lowered Georgia's debt ratings - http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/fitch-lowers-georgias-debt-ratings/story.aspx?guid=%7BFA377F13-52F9-4AA2-A3C2-A57170314903%7D&dist=msr_2 and the same from Fox Business - http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/fitch-lowers-georgias-debt-ratings-b/ 89.19.169.5 ( talk) 12:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone added content relating to the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline. Very well spotted. This addition upgrades the article to a broader context. Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 13:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
10h47 UTC, from Le Monde[ [10]]
"According to Georgian public television, Russian aviation bombarded Saturday a part of separatist territory Abkhazia controlled by the Georgians."
Hjortefot ( talk) 11:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but English sources usually give one-sided view (guess which). Therefore use google translate if you can not read Russian, but we should not be selective in terms of language now.
As for Abkhazia, it starts its own offensive:
The article says that it was Abkhazian, not Russian aviation, that bombarded the eastern part of Kodorsky ravine on Saturday ( http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/09/bagapsh/) -- Victor V V ( talk) 13:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.80.150.95 ( talk) 11:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia declares 'state of war' as Russian bombs fall
"Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili declared a "state of war" on Saturday as his troops battled it out with Russian forces over the breakaway province of South Ossetia."
http://news.smh.com.au/world/georgia-declares-state-of-war-as-russian-bombs-fall-20080809-3soz.html
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmeB7WbpRoVnV4IbRCC6nrgbilRQ
"The Georgian Parliament has approved a declaration for a 'state of war' for 15 days after 1,500 civilians were killed in fighting between Russia and the former Soviet satellite." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1042816/Georgia-declares-15-day-state-war-1-500-civilians-left-dead-Russia-conflict.html
TBILISI, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Georgia's parliament approved a state of war across the ex-Soviet country on Saturday following days of fighting against separatists in its South Ossetia region and their Russian allies.
"The state of war will be valid for 15 days," stated the decree by President Mikheil Saakashvili that parliament approved. (Reporting by James Kilner; Editing by Jon Boyle)
http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSL9310316
{{
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Подразделения 76-й Псковской дивизии направлены в Цхинвали -
http://www.rian.ru/defense_safety/20080809/150223158.html
On the subject of the arrival of parts of the Pskov Airborne Division in South Ossetia. Requested for the "citations needed part" at the "At 10:30 UTC, Russian paratroopers land in South Ossetia[citation needed]. President Saakashvili calls for ceasefire in his speech.".
Aedile ( talk) 11:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I am in support of image-rich Wikipedia articles. Imagery helps the reader navigate the article both visually and textually while scrolling (by placing relevant images next to relevant paragraphs in the text). Just like we have a textual discourse we could have a graphical discourse as well. Images and their captions help the reader focus on important parts of the article, and they also attract the reader's attention and make our encyclopedia look better and more professional. NerdyNSK ( talk) 11:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what Wikipedia's policy is as far as going outside of the Wikipedia community to ask specific individuals if they would consider giving images (i.e. that they took, that they can thus agree to release), whether or not that's discouraged. However, one US news site is reporting that a "Missouri School of Journalism professor is in the capital of the Republic of Georgia as the country is coming closer to war with Russia". It identifies him as Greeley Kyle. After this conflict dies down, I repeat several weeks or so after this conflict dies down (he may return to the US), it's plausible that we would be able to reach him through the University, and ask if he has any images he took that he might consider uploading. — Beobach972 ( talk) 21:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This table makes it look as if all Ossetians as well as ethnic Georgians inside South Ossetia are fighting Georgians. As far as I know, the ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia want to remain a part of Georgia. - Pieter_v ( talk) 11:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"Hundreds of Kubans are predicted to volunteer when the Kuban Kossack Army becomes formally involved." Perhaps we should avoid presumptions and predictions? And how can a paramilitary unit become "formally" involved? Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 12:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Would it not be preferable to refrain from quoting Russian news agencies and papers as they are not independant of government control and as such are an unreliable source of information that are likely to be facilitating Russian governmental propoganda? ( 86.8.241.65 ( talk) 12:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC))
- Someone who knows how to, please do. - Pieter_v ( talk) 12:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the Echo of Moscow ( [13]) Sergey Shamba said that Abkhazian armed forces began to 'push' Georgian forces from the upper Kodori gorge. Alæxis ¿question? 12:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I note that the article lists as casualties two Russian aircraft; you may wish to note that the Georgian government (per various news sources) confirms that three Georgian aircraft have been destroyed. See : [15] (an AP story?), [16]. 172.129.243.190 ( talk) 12:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody have slightest idea of why Saakashvili has decided to start all this nonsense? When he ordered to flatten down the towns populated by Russian citizens he knew very well what the consequences will be. It was mentioned many times that there never was hatred between Ossetians and Georgians, like it exists between Abkhazians and Georgians; but now it's in the past -- after Georgians murdered and injured thousands of Ossetians, now they have every right to consider Georgians as their deadly enemies. The chances that Ossetia will be returned to Georgia were average before 2004, were about zero a month ago, and became negative now. Georgia itself is likely to be occupied soon. Where this passionate desire to drive the situation from bad to worst comes from? — Hellerick ( talk) 12:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If ot's not a Forum what are those pages for? Let a man ask. BWC56 ( talk) 12:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 2. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 2 at the Reference desk. |
Old discussions older than or up to 8 August have been archived at Talk:2008 South Ossetia War/Archive 1. NerdyNSK ( talk) 12:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Media says Russia admits losing two planes, a Su-25 (~ A-10 Warthog equivalent) and a Tu-22. This latter one is probably a Tu-22M or Tu-26 in NATO notation. This is a very large supersonic swing-wing medium bomber from the 1980s, which the USA considers a strategic bomber asset due to its large payload and aerial refueling capability.
It is suprising the russians lost such a significant asset, that plane is simply too valuable. Did they fly it low altitude and it fell victim to simple autocannon fire from the ground? Did they fly it high and it fell victim to a SAM missile? Did they fail to provide it with jammer variant Su-24 Fencer escort planes for anti-SAM purposes? If yes, that was a major oversight! Russia's strategic air forces are not large enough to lose a Tu-22M on the first day of a silly little conflict like this one in Ossetia. 91.83.24.145 ( talk) 12:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please calm down, both of you. Mind WP:TALK and WP:CIV. Balkan Fever 13:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
According to constitution only Council of the Federation may authorize use of armed forces outside the territory of Russia (d, article 102, chapter 5 http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-06.htm ), but it's currently on a vacation until september 15th (article 41, http://www.council.gov.ru/about/agenda/ch1/item258.html(in russian))... What about russian peacekeepers’ mandate? Does it allow to use additional forces? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.19.169.5 ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If reliable references are needed, try BBC News' coverage. The GEORGIA-RUSSIA CONFLICT box to the right is a quick link to all their related sections. There are also videos and large numbers of images. — Vanderdecken∴ ∫ ξ φ 13:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why the declarations of the president of Georgia are not included?
{{
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BBC videos
In the background, the phrase "Some journalists have suggested that Russia's strategy during the 2008 South Ossetia War may have been to sabotage Georgia's entry into the NATO."
It's a POV. POV's are not needed. And why in the backfround it wasn't mentioned that the head of Georgia when came to power promised to end the de-facto seperation of South Ossetia? This article is to POV driven. BWC56 ( talk) 13:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"fighting between Georgian forces and pro-Russia South Ossetian separatists." Words about "pro-Russia" should be deleted. Read http://osinform.ru. They want to be independent. Why do you think they are pro-Russian? They will be pro-US or pro-China if US or China will help them to survive. 90.189.91.27 ( talk) 20:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The Russian Wikipedia article on this lists Sergei Uasyl-ipa Bagapsh (Russian: Серге́й Васи́льевич Бага́пш, Abkhaz: Сергеи Уасыл-иҧа Багаҧшь) in the "commanders" section of the table, as commander of the Abkhazian forces. Should we list him as well? — Beobach972 ( talk) 13:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why in this page use the fotos of the trainer type of "Su"-palnes? use better Image:SSCN4908.JPG (bomber type of Su-25) and Image:Su-27 on landing.jpg (fighter type of Su-27). Or, pergaps you can use Image:Su-24 Fencer Right side gear down.jpg and Image:Tu-22M3 Monino.jpg, if these bomber planes are really used in the war. Please, someone change the fotos.-- 123.224.96.87 ( talk) 13:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Can someone explain why the term "Russia" is used and not the term "Russian Federation" when it comes to the referenced news articles? Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 14:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers. I was not aware of this. Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 14:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm a bit confused about this: Russia's Channel 1 claimed that Georgia had 250 tanks. This had been confirmed by other sources. Yet the article gives the tanks as 200 and it initially gave the tank size as 150. Can someone find out exactly how many tanks Georgia has?
According to the article, this is a war between peacekeepers and volonteers assisting the peacekeepers... Hapsala ( talk) 15:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stop presenting the "90% of ossetians have a russian passport" as a fact. These are the numbers put forward by Russian and pro-russian sources and need to be indepdently varified before it's presented as fact. And yes "more than half" by the BBC DOES contradict 90%, because 90% equals to "almost all". - Pieter_v ( talk) 15:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually 90% would be more then half. More then half is greater then 50%, which means 51%-100%. 90% falls along those lines. I fail to see a contradiction, and I strongly urge you to take a math class. Cheers!
In order for this page to continue to effectively serve the article for which it is intended, I have begun to enforce the tag at the top warning that posts off-topic from improving the article on the South-Ossetian War will be deleted. I am deleting posts but leaving information on when they were made and by whom. I am also organizing posts within talkpoints according to their logical order by grouping responses to the posts to which they respond and by indenting responses that are not indented for the purpose of making their nature clear. I have considered merging functionally identical talkpoints and grouping talkpoints on similar subjects, and will probably do so if there is positive feedback for doing so. I will not do so if there is negative feedback. Christiangoth ( talk) 15:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe Russian news had said that un-marked NATO vehicles are arrviing in Georgia and Turkish naval infantry are mobilised, is there any source on this?
Some of my Russian friends say that a Russian news source said so, I'll look for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Attilavolciak07 ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Can I have the link? I cant find it. I think they have landed. Is there confirmation on that? Attilavolciak07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.165.213 ( talk) 16:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
How are Russian troops entering the zone? Are they crossing the mountains? I cant find any road between South Ossetia and Russia. Does South Ossetia has any airport? Dentren | Talk 15:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there is a tunnel connecting South Ossetia with Russia, or they could have airlifted troops
It is certainly the Roki tunnel - it is the only way: - "Russia has a military capability, if it is indeed moving into South Ossetia, to secure a corridor from Tskhinvali back through the Roki tunnel and to secure Tskhinvali itself," he said, referring to a tunnel that is the only land route connecting South Ossetia to the Russian Federation. Tskhinvali is the main city in South Ossetia." - CHRISTOPHER LANGTON, DEFENCE ANALYST AT INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES AND EXPERT IN CENTRAL ASIA. Taken from http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL8710763 - I do this because having been there, and having a very specific map of the region directly in front of me counts as original research. So here is the cite. Dobbs ( talk) 16:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think differentiating that there are 320 Russian Military aircraft "in the region" versus 3,070 total is slightly misleading since aircraft can easily be transferred around a country (even one as large as Russia), as opposed to equipment like tanks which require more logistics to relocate.
The news agency Reuters reported that over 2000 people died, according to Russian sources. [18] -- 91.66.143.134 ( talk) 15:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Today all the Russian sites can't be reached here in Tbilisi. It worked in the morning, but now in the evening all ru sites are blocked.
Right now two Russian pilots were interviewed in a hospital. They will be sent back to Russia via Red Cross according to Alaniya TV.
Narking (
talk) 15:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[19] Joint statement by them. They said we condemnt Russian imperialism and revisionism. All call for NATO and EU to react. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 15:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC) [20] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.222.66.239 ( talk) 16:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Since South Ossetia is NOT a recognized nation, and is indeed officially part of Georgia, shouldn't this article be named Civil War in Georgia? Kingturtle ( talk) 16:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Folks, the military activities have extended far beyond South Ossetia. Russian jets flew from Armenia and bombed the areas in south Georgia - Marneuli and Bolnisi where the military airfields are located. I saw one Russian SU downed by the Georgian air defense forces near Gori, Georgia. I captured a photo, but lost my camera when escaping shelling. Reports coming from the locals also say that Georgians are in almost complete control of Tskhinvali and the Russian columns heading through Roki Tunnel suffered heavy losses. Russia also announced an air blockade of Georgia. This is a full-scale invasion; Georgian troops are recalled from Iraq and thousands of Georgians are volunteering in the army. You can find a regularly updating news at http://www.civil.ge/ and http://www.interpressnews.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG (you can use free username and password that appears in the yellow banner). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 16:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the most lasting legacy of the Bush presidency will be our reputation as bumbling, gullible rubes.
All official Georgian sources are totally POV and clearly anti-Russian -- 81.91.48.15 ( talk) 17:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Calm down, people. Sooner or later we will know the truth. In the meantime, let us write down all the information in the article - and from the pro-Russian and pro-Georgian sources. -- Eraser ( talk) 18:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree that based on the third-party (not Russian or Georgian) sources that this is a conflict between Russia and Georgia? If so, despite South Ossetia being the obvious casus belli, is it reasonable to move this article to something along the lines of 2008 Russia-Georgia conflict or 2008 Russo-Georgian war, regardless of blame? -- Elliskev 19:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a bit of a different concern with the article name, "War in South Ossetia". From what I read there have been attacks outside South Ossetia. So the article discusses attacks in these border towns like Kareli and Marneuli near Tiblisi, which are not "in South Ossetia". Because of that, I think the name needs to be more location neutral, like "South Ossetia War" or "2008 Georgia-South Ossetia conflict".-- Patrick Ѻ 19:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe it would be worthwhile to point out in this section that the vehicle used to transport the Beslan terrorsits was traced back to South Ossetia, where it entered the Russian Federation and had S. Ossetian license plates.
It's not clear that this is a "war" per se yet. (Georgia's president declined to explicitly say the two countries were at war. [22]) Is there some more neutral name for the article we could pick? I ask because it would be nice to put this in {{ In the news}}, but I think the title might be controversial. -- SCZenz ( talk) 13:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So there's this comment at the end of this section here pointing out that the war is no longer contained to South Ossetia. I think he makes a very good point, and I agree. I would suggest moving the page to "South Ossetia War (2008)". Any takers? Kingnavland ( talk) 22:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Support for South Ossetia War (2008). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree to some extent that we should have an article entitled 2008 Russo-Georgian War or something of the sort, but then we would have to split this article into two parts. One part could deal with the actual fighting in South Ossetia between the Georgian Army and the separatists from Aug. 1- Aug. 8; the other part would go into that other article and would be about the Russo-Georgian conflict that began on August 8th and which as others have pointed out has transcended the bounds of S. Ossetia. TSO1D ( talk) 15:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I would like Second South Ossetian War. Like Second Chechen War -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 11:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure others could argue for 4 or more. 2008 South Ossetia War is undoubtedly correct and unambiguous (let's hope it ends before 2009 though). Superm401 - Talk 11:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it's a Georgian-Russian war. Georgia declared war on Russia and Russia probably did the same, so change the name of the article. Robin Hood 1212 ( talk) 15:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia was involved in the previous war to... and? It's involved as part of the Ossetian side, remember? Thats all. BWC56 ( talk) 16:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
and South Ossetia is in Georgia. Also Russia has bombed Gori, in Georgia and parts of Abkhazia which is also a part of Georgia. Ijanderson977 ( talk) 16:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
With all respect to you kids being excited they can coin the name of a war thru Wikipedia, no. In the media, wherever, it is called the 2008 South Ossetia War. In other places it is calles the 2008 South Ossetia Conflict. You cant start an article name section 10 more times, you still wont be allowed to play with that toy. BWC56 ( talk) 16:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
With the war rapidly expanding to Abkhazia and Russian air attacks on undisputed Georgian territory, the name "South Ossetia War" is no longer correct. This is a Russo-Georgian conflict, as the war is no longer limited to South Ossetia. LCpl ( talk) 03:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
It is clear at this point in time that the war has spread throughout northern Georgia. Although initially located only in South Ossetia, the fighting has spread to other parts of the country.
If none of the names given about are accepted, then are other suggestions to be given? Frankly, "2008" will date eventually and we will all regret using it. This Wikipedian votes for a name change.
South Ossetian War of Independence? (a little soon though...) Olympic War? (because the major fighting began on the day of the olympic opening ceremonies, although unrelated to the war) South Ossetia War? (because, although not the only fight they've had, this certainly involves the most personnel) Georgia-Russia War? (straight forward, i'd say)
We can also just say that the name must be changed eventually, and we can name it something more relevant to something else as the war progresses. The Fix 03:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
[29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 15:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Upper Abkhazia: Georgian forces repel Abkhaz attack.
Georgia Says Destroyed 40 Russian Tanks
[30]: earlier decision revised; Georgia pulls all of its troops from Iraq.
Georgian Athletes Withdraw from Olympics. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 16:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia is close friend and ally of USA in east Europe. The gov of Bush provides weapons to Georgia. We can say that this is another proxy war of USA and you should talk about this in the article.
Calls Russian actions violation of international law and says Russian explanations are comperable to those of Adolf Hitler.
[34] -- 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 17:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
That's not a reliable sources. Those who know that site know what I'm talking about. BWC56 ( talk) 17:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Gazeta Wyborcza is a reliable major media publication. It is also pro-Russian as it supports democracy and freedom in Russia.
It is reliable.
Speaking to Russian news agency Interfax, Russia's ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko, said on Saturday that 2,000 civilians and 13 Russian peacekeepers had been killed in Tskhinvali. "The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists," he said. "It is gone. The Georgian military has destroyed it." [...] A Russian air strike on Gori, a Georgian town near South Ossetia, left 60 people dead, many of them civilians, Georgia says. BBC (Reuters reports the same)
So there over 2000 dead people. In the box it still says 1600. I would update it myself, but for some reason I can't. -- DanteRay ( talk) 17:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Are there no other sources for casualty and dead. BBC has already reported the huge officila Russian overstatement of displaced peoples fleeing the conflict, off by about 28,000, are there no other sources. Lets also be careful here, it has been stated that many irregulars flowed into the region and these can be misrepresented as civilian casualties. 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 06:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
With all respect to keeping anonymous users or users who just today signed up out, I think people who registered before the war started could edit. Look above me! People have links, have nice edits they want to do, and they cant, and that realy makes the work on the article harder. BWC56 ( talk) 17:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[38] Do you know what's the original source or if we can use them in the article? (found in http://www.flash.gr) -- Leladax ( talk) 18:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[39] -- 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 18:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
BWC I'm beginning to think you have dog in this race http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/08/europe/EU-France-Georgia-South-Ossetia.php 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 06:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC) sorry belongs below in reference to french response 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 06:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
[40] -- 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 18:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia | South Ossetia | Russia | |
---|---|---|---|
Population | 4.6 million [3] | 70,000 (14,000 of whom are ethnic Georgians) [4] | 140 million [3] |
Army | 30,000 [5] | 3,000 [6] | 100,000 in the region [5] (1,037,000 total [7]) |
Tanks | 200 [5] | 87 [6] | 620 in the region [5] (23,000 total [3]) |
Aircraft | 82 citation needed | 0 [6] | 320 in the region [5] (3,070 total [8]) |
Can we get a consensus on whether this table belongs in the article? I don't see a problem with it. It's well-sourced and relevant to the topic. Another editor has removed it as not in the Iraq War article and POV pushing. -- Elliskev 18:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
A little background on the inclusion of the table in the article. I was the one that initially added the table. At that time it was no more than a copy of the table found within this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2524994/Georgia-Russia-fighting-a-war-in-South-Ossetia.html
The table has since been expanded upon and edited by a number of users. I think that it is useful, but its content bears further exploration. This is true both in that we need to continue to exercise diligence in the accuracy of the content, and that the table is incomplete. It lacks a section on naval power and a section on nuclear weapons. Granted, nuclear weapons are not currently in use, but an inclusive glance at the military of Russia should not overlook them.
Christiangoth (
talk) 19:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the references for this article, they aren't cited properly. In order for the references to be valid in x-amount of time down the track, they need to be cited properly, as often news links will go dead after a couple of days. Are there any objections to myself placing the Template:Inuse template on the article in order to allow me to go through all the references and cite them properly, so the information is available to all users in x-amount of time from now. During this time, there can't be any edits to the article, as it will conflict with the edits which are necessary and need to be done - any edits done will be removed by my own edit, so it is best for people to hold off on editing, or place their edits on the talk page so that they can be included back in once finished. If there are no major objections to this within the next 15 minutes, I will go ahead and get cracking on this proper referencing. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 18:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I have seen Russian reports that Turkish troops were coming or something. Then I heard they are in Georgia, I want to know if anyone has heard of this or has a source, because it will be extremly imprtant?
18:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.today.az/news/politics/46861.html
It is said that ethnic Georgians from Azerbaijan will join the fight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.192.197 ( talk) 00:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Can you add that the planes used for strikes were Russian Mig 29s?
The New York Times has a really impressive gallery about the war [43]. May be interesting for the section external links. -- DanteRay ( talk) 18:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I am sure Russian TV can make many things it wants to show to Russians.-- Jagiellow ( talk) 19:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello everyone. Below is a link to an article by Bill Van Auken on the current situation in South Ossetia and the Caucuses. I wanted to add it to the external links section of the 2008 South Ossetian War article, but the system says I'm not an established Wikipedian so I failed. I've been registered at Wikipedia for more than a year and have started and also contributed to a number of articles. Nevertheles I don't qualify as established Wikipedian. So my request is for someone who is an established Wikipedia user to add this link after checking it's ok and suitable for the Wikipedia article.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/aug2008/ruge-a09.shtml
thanks for your attention.
Daniel F. (registered as Denghu)
The World Socialist article doesn't seem to add anything I would call new. Sorry. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 19:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Would there be a problem with dividiing the International Reaction into International Reaction and Combatant Opinions. And, Move South Ossetia, Georgia, Russia, and some of the Russian Republics into the Combatant Opinions section? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 19:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Going through with this edit in 10 min. Thank you. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 19:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It's disgusting seeing only armies. This is not the propaganda site of a Defence Ministry. -- Leladax ( talk) 19:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't have to be corpses. Several images exist with wounded or just fleeing civilians. Putting only military images is multiple times uglier since it looks like the propaganda leaflet of an army. -- Leladax ( talk) 20:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Yesterday the unrecognized Transnistrian Republic made a statement about the conflict, which can be found here. I would appreciate it if someone could add it in after the link repairs are finished. TSO1D ( talk) 19:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This is against standard Wikipedia procedures. I think outside users would have a lot of specific knowledge to add here; and this semi-protection should not remain in perpetuity. 69.137.224.127 ( talk) 19:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[47] Notable quotes: Polish president:
I can hear planes flying over Tbilisi right now. Hopefully it's Georgian planes though. Narking ( talk) 20:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[48] -- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I can't find any sources about Georgia blocking Russian Mass Media. Any help?
The ORT chanel's reporter from Tbilisy said that it's true all .ru sites and Russian chanels were blocked. Even privet companies were not allowed. Morever, many mobile-phone networks stoped working. BWC56 ( talk) 20:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/08/tv/
I have actually not been able to confirm a Georgian blackout of Russian media in Georgia from any other source except lenta. Mobile service is being disrupted. This claim is dubious, are there any other non-russian sources for the blackout? 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 03:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
[49] Black Sea Fleet sails from Sevastopol to Georgian waters. Russian flagship the cruiser Moscow and nine other ships are in the group. -- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't care about your comments. Gazeta Wyborcza is a reliable major newspaper with both national and international awards.-- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[50] -- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[51] "Meanwhile, around 100 protestors gathered outside the Russian Embassy in Warsaw, Saturday evening, to protest against the “state of war” in the region.
Law and Justice MP Pawel Kowal said he is launching a campaign of solidarity with the Georgian nation and that red and white ribbons - the colours of both the Georgian and Polish flags - should be worn by all politicians, media figures and ordinary members of the public.
“Small gestures can help,” he said. A Day of Solidarity with Georgia is being organised for Monday."
Journalists locked in Tskhinvali are calling for coridor to get out. Novaya Gazeta reporter say, he with correspondents of Interfax, Reuters, Nezavisimaya Gazeta, and some other media, are hiding in basements ant can't get out. Komsomolskaya Pravda journalist Alexander Kots, who tried to walk away from the basement, was wounded by riffle fire and currently is evacuated from Tskhinvali.
"We, journalists of Russian and western media, ask for presidents of Russia, USA, Georgia, governments of western countries, UN, OSCE, and others, to organize a coridor for our evacuation. We, 50 journalists, and more than 200 of women, children and old people, are hiding in the unsafe shelter. In fact, our position is like hostage's, because we can't leave the city amid the fire. We ask for international society, to leaders of the states, to diplomats: we ask to organize a coridor for our evacuation under guarantee by state leaders and international organizations." [52] [53] Garret Beaumain ( talk) 20:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Most likely lied to by their Russian "journalists". You have to understand that in Russia everything serves war and conquering other nations.-- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"The 2008 South Ossetia War started in August 2008 after days of heavy fighting between Georgian forces and pro-Russia South Ossetian separatists"
Is it worth mentioning that South Ossetians are pro-Russian? Should it also be noted, then, that Georgia is pro-US? I'm not much of a Russian patriot, but this article seems to be somewhat biased. -- Exizt ( talk) 20:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
USA is not the part of this conflict. Russia is. So it is important. Perhaps USA will become part of the conflict then we will add that Georgians prefer USA to country which enslaved them and brought terror of communism and russification.--
Jagiellow (
talk) 20:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia is the major combatant. It stays. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The BBC is reporting that Russia has confirmed 21 of their soldiers have died. They do not differentiate between the initial peacekeepers and the reinforcements. [ [55]]
What about that Russian source yesterday that said 150 wounded? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.147.53.96 (
talk) 22:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm quite confused by the numerous statements that are attributed to "South Ossetia" in the article. Like most readers I don't have much understanding of the constitutional status of S.O., so it would be good if these statements were expanded to include the information in the footnotes, such as who precisely said these things and in what capacity they represent S.O's population.
Please use four little squiggly things at the top left of your keyboard after a note like that. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It is important to note that the majority of the citations originate from Russian media sources and International media sources via there Moscow Bureaus. Where unverifiable information is unable to be cited properly, it should be deleted. Additionally conflicting reports eminating from Russian and Georgian sources should be presented side by side, i.e. who controls Tskhinvali at this time in the conflict (accredited to CNN with no citation and equally conflicting reports). 75.216.120.189 ( talk) 20:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
In a perfect World... I wish there was a rumors section, with the newest at the top. Oh well, in a perfect world. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Thats your POV. As far as I can tell CNN is propoganda. Isn't it weird their man talking about Ossetia sits in Tbilisi? Not professional. On ORT an Ossetian said that western media recived information to the capital but no one came. BWC56 ( talk) 20:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not a forum. And, your POV is obvious. Please stop spamming. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Find somewhere else to get rid of your frustrations or start coming up with improvements to the article. Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 21:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Most of us are adults and understand there are sides to a conflict. You really don't need to express everything on the other side for us. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, umm, Georgia has mobilised so obviously their strength is not "1 battalion of peacekeepers". Plus you got the whole Russian 58 army there. What are the reasoning behind these figures? ( SebastianGS ( talk) 21:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC))
I have read that Georgia is now willing to go back to behind preconflict borders and to stop responding to Russian aggressions. Should we start finding references and promote this more??? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
AP:Georgia proposes cease fire in S Ossetia 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
To stop responding to shelling seems to be a little more than a trick to me. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
bwc56 could you please stay neutral "That was a trick" is your opinion. You are not there to say if its a trick or not.
This tidbit seems way too biased and is only referenced from a Russian source. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Except it is already mentioned under "9 August: Escalation". And, the wording of the article suggests a POV for Russian media. Obviously biased and in the class of propaganda at this point. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why were the 2 Russian jets removed from casualties & losses it was confirmed by Russia itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 22:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I didn't do it. but, I believe it's because that section deals with people. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It is casualties and losses. A downed jet is a loss.
Also Georgia confirmed that a number of its aircraft were destroyed on the ground. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
90.190.30.253 (
talk) 22:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It would belong somewhere else in the article. Times, references, and etc. would be nice. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 23:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It's under "9 August: Escalation" around 8:30 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 23:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
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Ok, a map of the first attacks was posted in the article, but it is small and lacks detail. Could someone create a bigger, more detailed map based on [1]? I would have done it myself, but I don't know Russian.
Good morning. It may seem not overall important, but there is a typo in the word "Lithuania" at the bottom of section no. 5.5. Please someone fix it. 89.161.15.229 ( talk) 17:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why not be bold and fix it yourself? The page isn't locked. - Darco ( talk)
The article says "At 00:53 on August 8, Georgian forces began shelling the city" but does not give a timezone. We need to say the timezone apart from the time. Are the times in the article in UTC or local time? NerdyNSK ( talk) 02:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia conflict: Roar of war as jets fill the air - The source says only about unknown jets flying near Gori, and nothing more. However, in article, it "proves" Gori and Kaleri bombing. -- Eraser ( talk) 03:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Is this where Georgians live? And/or pro-Georgian Ossetians? Anyone knows? - Pieter_v ( talk) 03:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If you feel that Germany's response to the hostilities should be added to the article:
Federal Foreign Office, 08/08/2008 - No official translation provided.
-- 78.54.129.44 ( talk) 03:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
There are the lake of information about period from 00:53 till 04:45 in the Article.
"At 00:53 on August 8, Georgian forces began shelling the city, which allegedly included the route along which refugees were being moved.[27] As the day progressed, Russian media reported that at least fifteen civilians had been killed in Tskhinvali.[20] At 04:45, Georgian State Minister for Reintegration, Temuri Yakobashvili announced that Tskhinvali was nearly surrounded, and that Georgia controlled two-thirds of South Ossetia's territory.[28] "
Comments of the civilians on the BBC "Have to say" page:
"Georgia says: "I offer you an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks"?!! Don't trust them!!! Army use heavy guns and MLRS "GRAD" against civilians: they are attacking Tskhinval right now. Words to you at the morning, swords to us at the night. Mikhail, Tskhinval, South Ossetia"
Confirmation BBC video: night MLRS Georgian fire against Tskhinval [2]
-- Niggle ( talk) 03:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
What exactly is the issue? Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It would be better to use original information from UN page:
The first meeting (Russian request) http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2008/sc9417.doc.htm
The second one (Georgian request) http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2008/sc9418.doc.htm
-- Niggle ( talk) 04:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I do not think we should describe "ethnicity" of people who live in South Ossetia. However if we do, we should indicate the percentage of "Ossetian", "Georgian", "Russians", and so on. Right now, one might think that all people who live there are Ossetians. An if we are talking about citizenship, not about ethnicity, all of them are either Russian citizens or Georgia citizens (the South Ossetia itself is not an internationally recognized state). Another important question is this: what percentage of people who live there hold Russian passports, and are they also citizens of Georgia? Biophys ( talk) 04:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean by "potentially misleadin"? This is important because Ossetians themselves seek integrity with Ossetians in Russian region of North Ossetia. Does not it clearly show that this is the important factor, and therefore should be mentioned? Historically, ethnical factor is the main reason of wars in Caucasus, the same about this region, especially if you take into consideration the prehistory of the conflict (before Soviet Union Ossetia was not a part of Georgia, and after the USSR, there was a conflict of 1991-1992) -- Victor V V ( talk) 07:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Not "about half", but more than half of inhabitants of South Ossetia have a Russian passport (according to Russian sources - about 90%, and this figure is more accurate, by the way, because BBC does not give percentage. 90% is more than half). -- Victor V V ( talk) 07:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, the references to the Cossacks are confusing. It is not immediately apparent which side they are on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.163.28 ( talk) 04:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I added a photo from 2004 conflicts showing a Georgian firing at South Ossetians, while in the caption I said that the pic was from 2004. A user removed the photo saying it's not about the 2008 conflict. I added the pic again, this time changing the caption to say explicitly that it is an example from a previous conflict, in addition to the date (2004). I think the photo is relevant, useful, informative, and adds value to the article, and I think it should stay. If we get a similar photo of combat action in 2008 I will be happy to think replacing it, or keeping both, but I think this 2004 is all we have showing actual combat between Georgians and Ossetians. I recommend keeping the photo, and I would like to know what you think. NerdyNSK ( talk) 04:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[Perhaps this would come under a heading of "deep, deep background" (or the "religious dimension"), but the assertion that Georgia (who is an ally of the United States--an iteration of the "king of the South") was attempting to bring these areas under its control; and that Russia (an iteration of the "king of the North") responded to the military moves of Georgia, brings this conflict within the context of the fractal Prophecies of Daniel 11:40. It will not help the situation to ignore that fact or delete this information.] Michael J. Cecil ( talk) 09:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'll add more thoughts when I think of them. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 05:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
INTERFAX.RU - Convoy of the wounded, coming from South Ossetia, was attacked by Georgian armed forces, as was told to "Interfax" by Igor Konashenkov. "Thanks to the staff of the OSCE mission was agreed to evacuate the wounded. However, the stories of the wounded themselves relayed that when the convoy reached the road leading from South Ossetia, Georgian artillery opened fire on the convoy," - Konashenkov said.
Although evacuation routes do exist, sources report that it is difficult to leave the reagion.
Interfax also reported that villagers are under attack by the Georgian foces, being taunted and then killed after seeing their homes destroyed.
Ossetian led news forum, cominf.org, updated periodically, reported that civilians were being gunned down after fleeing into forests for protection. This supports the claims that Georgia is actively conducting ethnic cleansing of the people.
Also, upon entry into Tskhinvali, Georgian tanks opened fire on civilan homes and buildings to continue the bombardment of the city. Very few buildings remain intact. This was also reported by Interfax, and from victims who were able to send SMS/text messages to families in North Ossetia.
No author or links and highly biased. ... The preceeding should be deleted. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 05:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
someone should clean up the links. I cleaned up #8 because there was a ref tag error, but my info doesn't look right. Also the russian links should say (Russian), like so. The first one doesn't, and others may not either. Lihaas ( talk) 05:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I noticed in fact someone changed "12 dead Russian soldiers" to "12 dead Russian Peace Keepers." Are they peace keepers? Were they trying to keep the peace are were the shooting at the Georgians? I donno, it sorta reeks of bias 72.140.80.212 ( talk) 05:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia says casualties" are peacekeepers.
Anywyay, don't delete fact there were 500 Georgian peacekeers (and they are now engaged in warkeeping as much as the Russian ones, too). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I also noticed that the Russian positions are being listed under "International Reactions". Shouldn't this be seperated out to a Combatant Section? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 05:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please use four of the little squiggly things at the top left of your keyboard at the end of a note like that.
65.68.1.90 (
talk) 07:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
They are internationally recognised as peacekeepers since 1992 by Georgia, South Ossetia, the USA, UN, OSCE, CIS. They work as peacekeeper force there under official agreements signed by Georgia, South Ossetia and Russia on behalf of CIS. The US have stated several times that they value the mission that these peacekeepers do in breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhasia. What is there to discuss abou wording?? 85.202.113.34 ( talk) 13:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry
It should be more something among the BBC one:
SOUTH OSSETIA TIMELINE
More recent stuff before August (incuding the downing of Georgian drones and other incidents, like when Georgians caught are arrested Russians illegally transporting weapons). And yes, the war erupted on August 8 rather than August 1. Clashes are not war. (I think the rest should be mostly moved to Georgian-Osstian conflcit article.) -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 05:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
1991–1992 South Ossetia War, Georgian-Ossetian conflict, 2008 Georgia-Russia crisis, Georgia–Russia relations
There was also a War in Abkhazia (1992–1993) (and the conflict since, including the War in Abkhazia (1998) and the 2001 Kodori crisis) and the Georgian Civil War in general, too. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 06:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian resumed fierce air-strikes against Georgia. The central part of Gori is almost completely destroyed, with civilian casualties. The Kopitnari Airport near Kutaisi in west Georgia is being shelled right now. A Russian SU-25 hit a residential building in Senaki where the displaced persons from Abkhazia live. During the nighttime battles, Georgians report to have downed 3 Russian jets. The Georgian state minister Temur Iakobashvili said Georgia is waging a patriotic war against Russia. Source: [3]-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
‘Dozens’ Killed Poti, Senaki Bombings – Reports.-- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 07:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
As I have said before, Georgia claims that Israel has NOT frozen arms sales. I can't edit a locked article. Here are the links again, and one new one:
Contralya (
talk) 06:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Robert Hunter, U.S. ambassador to NATO under President Bill Clinton says that the conflict dooms Georgias chances of joining the alliance [8]. Not sure where to insert it in the article. Hjortefot ( talk) 07:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please help to expand the article on this battle. Add info on fighting to that page.
Here is the map of fights for August 9: http://forum.pravda.com.ua/read.php?2,203072164
I see a lot of editors are making an issue of background and so I figured this article which is already full of more recent events would help with some of these concerns. Information from that article should help expand the background section here. At the same time the article could use some revamping as well.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 08:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
OK. Now someone make a second paragraph on the events of the 2008 Georgia-Russia crisis events before August. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If you don't have any pics, please don't get killed while trying to get some.
This also applies to the other conlicts, btw (including the previous Georgian ones). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 08:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russian military officials admitted to the loss of two jets, one SU-25 and one TU-22. Georgians claim thay have actually downed 10. The source is the Russian website lenta.ru: http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/09/planes/. Please add the info to the article. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 08:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If they were important they would have articles (like the armies have theirs). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
When articles are created and you get RELIABLE SOURCES these units are there, do an "Order of battle" section, and don't spam the box. See the Iraq War or Korean War or Gulf War or Bosnian War or whatever. If one had to list every unit, it would be crazy. Actually, even Russian Armies involved are borderline, but I can accpet THIS. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 09:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Are you slow or something? Read the title of this section until you understand. -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 10:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
He does not stop! Hey, admins, are you there? -- Alexander Widefield ( talk) 10:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
New to contributing to Wikipedia & talk pages. Hi from a newby! The following links may be useful for you [originally posted here]. Not sure if they (or some of them) belong in the "External Links" section. You can use the following information the best way you think, since I am inexperienced with the ins and outs of Wikipedia. Hope they're useful for you.
Here are some English language web links of news sources direct from Georgia and Russia that I have found (to be working):
GEORGIA:
Civil.ge daily news online
Server connection error from the following: [ http://www.news.ge/ ], [ http://www.media.ge/ ], [ http://www.interpressnews.ge/ ], [ http://internews.ge/ ], [ http://news.boom.ge/ ], [ http://www.rustavi2.com.ge/ ], [ http://www.liberty.ge/ ], [ http://forum.ge/ ]
RUSSIA:
ITAR-TASS news agency
Military News Agency by Interfax
Varvara's Voices from Russia blog with photos and translated news from Interfax
RIA Novosti news agency
Pravda news
Speckontheweb (
talk) 09:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned that external news links in English from the Georgian side are being removed and only displaying news links to Russian news media. This makes me mad - not because of my position on the war - but this is extremely biased to remove alternative new sources! The Messenger is certainly a mainstream newspaper, what reason can be given to remove it? Dobbs ( talk) 16:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Saakashvili Declares Martial Law: "South Ossetia was just a pretext used by Russia to launch a large scale military aggression against Georgia." -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 10:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Since Abkhazia is an autonomous republic in Georgia, they don't really have a border. My wording in the section isn't the greatest [9], but any rewording should not represent as two different countries. Balkan Fever 10:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"The war is also widely expected to slow down the economy of Georgia", which needs a citation? Are you kidding? Does anyone really think this war will boost Georgian economy? Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 11:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Standard & Poor's and Fitch lowered Georgia's debt ratings - http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/fitch-lowers-georgias-debt-ratings/story.aspx?guid=%7BFA377F13-52F9-4AA2-A3C2-A57170314903%7D&dist=msr_2 and the same from Fox Business - http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/fitch-lowers-georgias-debt-ratings-b/ 89.19.169.5 ( talk) 12:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone added content relating to the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline. Very well spotted. This addition upgrades the article to a broader context. Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 13:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
10h47 UTC, from Le Monde[ [10]]
"According to Georgian public television, Russian aviation bombarded Saturday a part of separatist territory Abkhazia controlled by the Georgians."
Hjortefot ( talk) 11:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but English sources usually give one-sided view (guess which). Therefore use google translate if you can not read Russian, but we should not be selective in terms of language now.
As for Abkhazia, it starts its own offensive:
The article says that it was Abkhazian, not Russian aviation, that bombarded the eastern part of Kodorsky ravine on Saturday ( http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/09/bagapsh/) -- Victor V V ( talk) 13:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.80.150.95 ( talk) 11:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia declares 'state of war' as Russian bombs fall
"Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili declared a "state of war" on Saturday as his troops battled it out with Russian forces over the breakaway province of South Ossetia."
http://news.smh.com.au/world/georgia-declares-state-of-war-as-russian-bombs-fall-20080809-3soz.html
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmeB7WbpRoVnV4IbRCC6nrgbilRQ
"The Georgian Parliament has approved a declaration for a 'state of war' for 15 days after 1,500 civilians were killed in fighting between Russia and the former Soviet satellite." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1042816/Georgia-declares-15-day-state-war-1-500-civilians-left-dead-Russia-conflict.html
TBILISI, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Georgia's parliament approved a state of war across the ex-Soviet country on Saturday following days of fighting against separatists in its South Ossetia region and their Russian allies.
"The state of war will be valid for 15 days," stated the decree by President Mikheil Saakashvili that parliament approved. (Reporting by James Kilner; Editing by Jon Boyle)
http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSL9310316
{{
editsemiprotected}}
Подразделения 76-й Псковской дивизии направлены в Цхинвали -
http://www.rian.ru/defense_safety/20080809/150223158.html
On the subject of the arrival of parts of the Pskov Airborne Division in South Ossetia. Requested for the "citations needed part" at the "At 10:30 UTC, Russian paratroopers land in South Ossetia[citation needed]. President Saakashvili calls for ceasefire in his speech.".
Aedile ( talk) 11:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I am in support of image-rich Wikipedia articles. Imagery helps the reader navigate the article both visually and textually while scrolling (by placing relevant images next to relevant paragraphs in the text). Just like we have a textual discourse we could have a graphical discourse as well. Images and their captions help the reader focus on important parts of the article, and they also attract the reader's attention and make our encyclopedia look better and more professional. NerdyNSK ( talk) 11:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what Wikipedia's policy is as far as going outside of the Wikipedia community to ask specific individuals if they would consider giving images (i.e. that they took, that they can thus agree to release), whether or not that's discouraged. However, one US news site is reporting that a "Missouri School of Journalism professor is in the capital of the Republic of Georgia as the country is coming closer to war with Russia". It identifies him as Greeley Kyle. After this conflict dies down, I repeat several weeks or so after this conflict dies down (he may return to the US), it's plausible that we would be able to reach him through the University, and ask if he has any images he took that he might consider uploading. — Beobach972 ( talk) 21:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This table makes it look as if all Ossetians as well as ethnic Georgians inside South Ossetia are fighting Georgians. As far as I know, the ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia want to remain a part of Georgia. - Pieter_v ( talk) 11:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"Hundreds of Kubans are predicted to volunteer when the Kuban Kossack Army becomes formally involved." Perhaps we should avoid presumptions and predictions? And how can a paramilitary unit become "formally" involved? Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 12:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Would it not be preferable to refrain from quoting Russian news agencies and papers as they are not independant of government control and as such are an unreliable source of information that are likely to be facilitating Russian governmental propoganda? ( 86.8.241.65 ( talk) 12:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC))
- Someone who knows how to, please do. - Pieter_v ( talk) 12:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the Echo of Moscow ( [13]) Sergey Shamba said that Abkhazian armed forces began to 'push' Georgian forces from the upper Kodori gorge. Alæxis ¿question? 12:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I note that the article lists as casualties two Russian aircraft; you may wish to note that the Georgian government (per various news sources) confirms that three Georgian aircraft have been destroyed. See : [15] (an AP story?), [16]. 172.129.243.190 ( talk) 12:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody have slightest idea of why Saakashvili has decided to start all this nonsense? When he ordered to flatten down the towns populated by Russian citizens he knew very well what the consequences will be. It was mentioned many times that there never was hatred between Ossetians and Georgians, like it exists between Abkhazians and Georgians; but now it's in the past -- after Georgians murdered and injured thousands of Ossetians, now they have every right to consider Georgians as their deadly enemies. The chances that Ossetia will be returned to Georgia were average before 2004, were about zero a month ago, and became negative now. Georgia itself is likely to be occupied soon. Where this passionate desire to drive the situation from bad to worst comes from? — Hellerick ( talk) 12:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If ot's not a Forum what are those pages for? Let a man ask. BWC56 ( talk) 12:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 2. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War/Archive 2 at the Reference desk. |
Old discussions older than or up to 8 August have been archived at Talk:2008 South Ossetia War/Archive 1. NerdyNSK ( talk) 12:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Media says Russia admits losing two planes, a Su-25 (~ A-10 Warthog equivalent) and a Tu-22. This latter one is probably a Tu-22M or Tu-26 in NATO notation. This is a very large supersonic swing-wing medium bomber from the 1980s, which the USA considers a strategic bomber asset due to its large payload and aerial refueling capability.
It is suprising the russians lost such a significant asset, that plane is simply too valuable. Did they fly it low altitude and it fell victim to simple autocannon fire from the ground? Did they fly it high and it fell victim to a SAM missile? Did they fail to provide it with jammer variant Su-24 Fencer escort planes for anti-SAM purposes? If yes, that was a major oversight! Russia's strategic air forces are not large enough to lose a Tu-22M on the first day of a silly little conflict like this one in Ossetia. 91.83.24.145 ( talk) 12:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please calm down, both of you. Mind WP:TALK and WP:CIV. Balkan Fever 13:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
According to constitution only Council of the Federation may authorize use of armed forces outside the territory of Russia (d, article 102, chapter 5 http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-06.htm ), but it's currently on a vacation until september 15th (article 41, http://www.council.gov.ru/about/agenda/ch1/item258.html(in russian))... What about russian peacekeepers’ mandate? Does it allow to use additional forces? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.19.169.5 ( talk) 13:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If reliable references are needed, try BBC News' coverage. The GEORGIA-RUSSIA CONFLICT box to the right is a quick link to all their related sections. There are also videos and large numbers of images. — Vanderdecken∴ ∫ ξ φ 13:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why the declarations of the president of Georgia are not included?
{{
editsemiprotected}}
BBC videos
In the background, the phrase "Some journalists have suggested that Russia's strategy during the 2008 South Ossetia War may have been to sabotage Georgia's entry into the NATO."
It's a POV. POV's are not needed. And why in the backfround it wasn't mentioned that the head of Georgia when came to power promised to end the de-facto seperation of South Ossetia? This article is to POV driven. BWC56 ( talk) 13:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"fighting between Georgian forces and pro-Russia South Ossetian separatists." Words about "pro-Russia" should be deleted. Read http://osinform.ru. They want to be independent. Why do you think they are pro-Russian? They will be pro-US or pro-China if US or China will help them to survive. 90.189.91.27 ( talk) 20:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The Russian Wikipedia article on this lists Sergei Uasyl-ipa Bagapsh (Russian: Серге́й Васи́льевич Бага́пш, Abkhaz: Сергеи Уасыл-иҧа Багаҧшь) in the "commanders" section of the table, as commander of the Abkhazian forces. Should we list him as well? — Beobach972 ( talk) 13:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why in this page use the fotos of the trainer type of "Su"-palnes? use better Image:SSCN4908.JPG (bomber type of Su-25) and Image:Su-27 on landing.jpg (fighter type of Su-27). Or, pergaps you can use Image:Su-24 Fencer Right side gear down.jpg and Image:Tu-22M3 Monino.jpg, if these bomber planes are really used in the war. Please, someone change the fotos.-- 123.224.96.87 ( talk) 13:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Can someone explain why the term "Russia" is used and not the term "Russian Federation" when it comes to the referenced news articles? Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 14:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers. I was not aware of this. Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 14:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm a bit confused about this: Russia's Channel 1 claimed that Georgia had 250 tanks. This had been confirmed by other sources. Yet the article gives the tanks as 200 and it initially gave the tank size as 150. Can someone find out exactly how many tanks Georgia has?
According to the article, this is a war between peacekeepers and volonteers assisting the peacekeepers... Hapsala ( talk) 15:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stop presenting the "90% of ossetians have a russian passport" as a fact. These are the numbers put forward by Russian and pro-russian sources and need to be indepdently varified before it's presented as fact. And yes "more than half" by the BBC DOES contradict 90%, because 90% equals to "almost all". - Pieter_v ( talk) 15:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually 90% would be more then half. More then half is greater then 50%, which means 51%-100%. 90% falls along those lines. I fail to see a contradiction, and I strongly urge you to take a math class. Cheers!
In order for this page to continue to effectively serve the article for which it is intended, I have begun to enforce the tag at the top warning that posts off-topic from improving the article on the South-Ossetian War will be deleted. I am deleting posts but leaving information on when they were made and by whom. I am also organizing posts within talkpoints according to their logical order by grouping responses to the posts to which they respond and by indenting responses that are not indented for the purpose of making their nature clear. I have considered merging functionally identical talkpoints and grouping talkpoints on similar subjects, and will probably do so if there is positive feedback for doing so. I will not do so if there is negative feedback. Christiangoth ( talk) 15:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe Russian news had said that un-marked NATO vehicles are arrviing in Georgia and Turkish naval infantry are mobilised, is there any source on this?
Some of my Russian friends say that a Russian news source said so, I'll look for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Attilavolciak07 ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Can I have the link? I cant find it. I think they have landed. Is there confirmation on that? Attilavolciak07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.165.213 ( talk) 16:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
How are Russian troops entering the zone? Are they crossing the mountains? I cant find any road between South Ossetia and Russia. Does South Ossetia has any airport? Dentren | Talk 15:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there is a tunnel connecting South Ossetia with Russia, or they could have airlifted troops
It is certainly the Roki tunnel - it is the only way: - "Russia has a military capability, if it is indeed moving into South Ossetia, to secure a corridor from Tskhinvali back through the Roki tunnel and to secure Tskhinvali itself," he said, referring to a tunnel that is the only land route connecting South Ossetia to the Russian Federation. Tskhinvali is the main city in South Ossetia." - CHRISTOPHER LANGTON, DEFENCE ANALYST AT INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES AND EXPERT IN CENTRAL ASIA. Taken from http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL8710763 - I do this because having been there, and having a very specific map of the region directly in front of me counts as original research. So here is the cite. Dobbs ( talk) 16:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think differentiating that there are 320 Russian Military aircraft "in the region" versus 3,070 total is slightly misleading since aircraft can easily be transferred around a country (even one as large as Russia), as opposed to equipment like tanks which require more logistics to relocate.
The news agency Reuters reported that over 2000 people died, according to Russian sources. [18] -- 91.66.143.134 ( talk) 15:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Today all the Russian sites can't be reached here in Tbilisi. It worked in the morning, but now in the evening all ru sites are blocked.
Right now two Russian pilots were interviewed in a hospital. They will be sent back to Russia via Red Cross according to Alaniya TV.
Narking (
talk) 15:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[19] Joint statement by them. They said we condemnt Russian imperialism and revisionism. All call for NATO and EU to react. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 15:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC) [20] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.222.66.239 ( talk) 16:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Since South Ossetia is NOT a recognized nation, and is indeed officially part of Georgia, shouldn't this article be named Civil War in Georgia? Kingturtle ( talk) 16:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Folks, the military activities have extended far beyond South Ossetia. Russian jets flew from Armenia and bombed the areas in south Georgia - Marneuli and Bolnisi where the military airfields are located. I saw one Russian SU downed by the Georgian air defense forces near Gori, Georgia. I captured a photo, but lost my camera when escaping shelling. Reports coming from the locals also say that Georgians are in almost complete control of Tskhinvali and the Russian columns heading through Roki Tunnel suffered heavy losses. Russia also announced an air blockade of Georgia. This is a full-scale invasion; Georgian troops are recalled from Iraq and thousands of Georgians are volunteering in the army. You can find a regularly updating news at http://www.civil.ge/ and http://www.interpressnews.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG (you can use free username and password that appears in the yellow banner). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 16:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the most lasting legacy of the Bush presidency will be our reputation as bumbling, gullible rubes.
All official Georgian sources are totally POV and clearly anti-Russian -- 81.91.48.15 ( talk) 17:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Calm down, people. Sooner or later we will know the truth. In the meantime, let us write down all the information in the article - and from the pro-Russian and pro-Georgian sources. -- Eraser ( talk) 18:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree that based on the third-party (not Russian or Georgian) sources that this is a conflict between Russia and Georgia? If so, despite South Ossetia being the obvious casus belli, is it reasonable to move this article to something along the lines of 2008 Russia-Georgia conflict or 2008 Russo-Georgian war, regardless of blame? -- Elliskev 19:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a bit of a different concern with the article name, "War in South Ossetia". From what I read there have been attacks outside South Ossetia. So the article discusses attacks in these border towns like Kareli and Marneuli near Tiblisi, which are not "in South Ossetia". Because of that, I think the name needs to be more location neutral, like "South Ossetia War" or "2008 Georgia-South Ossetia conflict".-- Patrick Ѻ 19:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe it would be worthwhile to point out in this section that the vehicle used to transport the Beslan terrorsits was traced back to South Ossetia, where it entered the Russian Federation and had S. Ossetian license plates.
It's not clear that this is a "war" per se yet. (Georgia's president declined to explicitly say the two countries were at war. [22]) Is there some more neutral name for the article we could pick? I ask because it would be nice to put this in {{ In the news}}, but I think the title might be controversial. -- SCZenz ( talk) 13:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
So there's this comment at the end of this section here pointing out that the war is no longer contained to South Ossetia. I think he makes a very good point, and I agree. I would suggest moving the page to "South Ossetia War (2008)". Any takers? Kingnavland ( talk) 22:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Support for South Ossetia War (2008). -- Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog ( talk) 22:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree to some extent that we should have an article entitled 2008 Russo-Georgian War or something of the sort, but then we would have to split this article into two parts. One part could deal with the actual fighting in South Ossetia between the Georgian Army and the separatists from Aug. 1- Aug. 8; the other part would go into that other article and would be about the Russo-Georgian conflict that began on August 8th and which as others have pointed out has transcended the bounds of S. Ossetia. TSO1D ( talk) 15:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I would like Second South Ossetian War. Like Second Chechen War -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 11:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure others could argue for 4 or more. 2008 South Ossetia War is undoubtedly correct and unambiguous (let's hope it ends before 2009 though). Superm401 - Talk 11:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it's a Georgian-Russian war. Georgia declared war on Russia and Russia probably did the same, so change the name of the article. Robin Hood 1212 ( talk) 15:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia was involved in the previous war to... and? It's involved as part of the Ossetian side, remember? Thats all. BWC56 ( talk) 16:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
and South Ossetia is in Georgia. Also Russia has bombed Gori, in Georgia and parts of Abkhazia which is also a part of Georgia. Ijanderson977 ( talk) 16:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
With all respect to you kids being excited they can coin the name of a war thru Wikipedia, no. In the media, wherever, it is called the 2008 South Ossetia War. In other places it is calles the 2008 South Ossetia Conflict. You cant start an article name section 10 more times, you still wont be allowed to play with that toy. BWC56 ( talk) 16:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
With the war rapidly expanding to Abkhazia and Russian air attacks on undisputed Georgian territory, the name "South Ossetia War" is no longer correct. This is a Russo-Georgian conflict, as the war is no longer limited to South Ossetia. LCpl ( talk) 03:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
It is clear at this point in time that the war has spread throughout northern Georgia. Although initially located only in South Ossetia, the fighting has spread to other parts of the country.
If none of the names given about are accepted, then are other suggestions to be given? Frankly, "2008" will date eventually and we will all regret using it. This Wikipedian votes for a name change.
South Ossetian War of Independence? (a little soon though...) Olympic War? (because the major fighting began on the day of the olympic opening ceremonies, although unrelated to the war) South Ossetia War? (because, although not the only fight they've had, this certainly involves the most personnel) Georgia-Russia War? (straight forward, i'd say)
We can also just say that the name must be changed eventually, and we can name it something more relevant to something else as the war progresses. The Fix 03:57, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
[29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 15:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Upper Abkhazia: Georgian forces repel Abkhaz attack.
Georgia Says Destroyed 40 Russian Tanks
[30]: earlier decision revised; Georgia pulls all of its troops from Iraq.
Georgian Athletes Withdraw from Olympics. -- 93.177.151.101 ( talk) 16:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia is close friend and ally of USA in east Europe. The gov of Bush provides weapons to Georgia. We can say that this is another proxy war of USA and you should talk about this in the article.
Calls Russian actions violation of international law and says Russian explanations are comperable to those of Adolf Hitler.
[34] -- 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 17:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
That's not a reliable sources. Those who know that site know what I'm talking about. BWC56 ( talk) 17:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Gazeta Wyborcza is a reliable major media publication. It is also pro-Russian as it supports democracy and freedom in Russia.
It is reliable.
Speaking to Russian news agency Interfax, Russia's ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko, said on Saturday that 2,000 civilians and 13 Russian peacekeepers had been killed in Tskhinvali. "The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists," he said. "It is gone. The Georgian military has destroyed it." [...] A Russian air strike on Gori, a Georgian town near South Ossetia, left 60 people dead, many of them civilians, Georgia says. BBC (Reuters reports the same)
So there over 2000 dead people. In the box it still says 1600. I would update it myself, but for some reason I can't. -- DanteRay ( talk) 17:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Are there no other sources for casualty and dead. BBC has already reported the huge officila Russian overstatement of displaced peoples fleeing the conflict, off by about 28,000, are there no other sources. Lets also be careful here, it has been stated that many irregulars flowed into the region and these can be misrepresented as civilian casualties. 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 06:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
With all respect to keeping anonymous users or users who just today signed up out, I think people who registered before the war started could edit. Look above me! People have links, have nice edits they want to do, and they cant, and that realy makes the work on the article harder. BWC56 ( talk) 17:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[38] Do you know what's the original source or if we can use them in the article? (found in http://www.flash.gr) -- Leladax ( talk) 18:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[39] -- 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 18:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
BWC I'm beginning to think you have dog in this race http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/08/europe/EU-France-Georgia-South-Ossetia.php 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 06:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC) sorry belongs below in reference to french response 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 06:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
[40] -- 83.16.144.67 ( talk) 18:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Georgia | South Ossetia | Russia | |
---|---|---|---|
Population | 4.6 million [3] | 70,000 (14,000 of whom are ethnic Georgians) [4] | 140 million [3] |
Army | 30,000 [5] | 3,000 [6] | 100,000 in the region [5] (1,037,000 total [7]) |
Tanks | 200 [5] | 87 [6] | 620 in the region [5] (23,000 total [3]) |
Aircraft | 82 citation needed | 0 [6] | 320 in the region [5] (3,070 total [8]) |
Can we get a consensus on whether this table belongs in the article? I don't see a problem with it. It's well-sourced and relevant to the topic. Another editor has removed it as not in the Iraq War article and POV pushing. -- Elliskev 18:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
A little background on the inclusion of the table in the article. I was the one that initially added the table. At that time it was no more than a copy of the table found within this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2524994/Georgia-Russia-fighting-a-war-in-South-Ossetia.html
The table has since been expanded upon and edited by a number of users. I think that it is useful, but its content bears further exploration. This is true both in that we need to continue to exercise diligence in the accuracy of the content, and that the table is incomplete. It lacks a section on naval power and a section on nuclear weapons. Granted, nuclear weapons are not currently in use, but an inclusive glance at the military of Russia should not overlook them.
Christiangoth (
talk) 19:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the references for this article, they aren't cited properly. In order for the references to be valid in x-amount of time down the track, they need to be cited properly, as often news links will go dead after a couple of days. Are there any objections to myself placing the Template:Inuse template on the article in order to allow me to go through all the references and cite them properly, so the information is available to all users in x-amount of time from now. During this time, there can't be any edits to the article, as it will conflict with the edits which are necessary and need to be done - any edits done will be removed by my own edit, so it is best for people to hold off on editing, or place their edits on the talk page so that they can be included back in once finished. If there are no major objections to this within the next 15 minutes, I will go ahead and get cracking on this proper referencing. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 18:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I have seen Russian reports that Turkish troops were coming or something. Then I heard they are in Georgia, I want to know if anyone has heard of this or has a source, because it will be extremly imprtant?
18:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.today.az/news/politics/46861.html
It is said that ethnic Georgians from Azerbaijan will join the fight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.192.197 ( talk) 00:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Can you add that the planes used for strikes were Russian Mig 29s?
The New York Times has a really impressive gallery about the war [43]. May be interesting for the section external links. -- DanteRay ( talk) 18:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I am sure Russian TV can make many things it wants to show to Russians.-- Jagiellow ( talk) 19:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello everyone. Below is a link to an article by Bill Van Auken on the current situation in South Ossetia and the Caucuses. I wanted to add it to the external links section of the 2008 South Ossetian War article, but the system says I'm not an established Wikipedian so I failed. I've been registered at Wikipedia for more than a year and have started and also contributed to a number of articles. Nevertheles I don't qualify as established Wikipedian. So my request is for someone who is an established Wikipedia user to add this link after checking it's ok and suitable for the Wikipedia article.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/aug2008/ruge-a09.shtml
thanks for your attention.
Daniel F. (registered as Denghu)
The World Socialist article doesn't seem to add anything I would call new. Sorry. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 19:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Would there be a problem with dividiing the International Reaction into International Reaction and Combatant Opinions. And, Move South Ossetia, Georgia, Russia, and some of the Russian Republics into the Combatant Opinions section? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 19:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Going through with this edit in 10 min. Thank you. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 19:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It's disgusting seeing only armies. This is not the propaganda site of a Defence Ministry. -- Leladax ( talk) 19:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't have to be corpses. Several images exist with wounded or just fleeing civilians. Putting only military images is multiple times uglier since it looks like the propaganda leaflet of an army. -- Leladax ( talk) 20:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Yesterday the unrecognized Transnistrian Republic made a statement about the conflict, which can be found here. I would appreciate it if someone could add it in after the link repairs are finished. TSO1D ( talk) 19:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This is against standard Wikipedia procedures. I think outside users would have a lot of specific knowledge to add here; and this semi-protection should not remain in perpetuity. 69.137.224.127 ( talk) 19:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[47] Notable quotes: Polish president:
I can hear planes flying over Tbilisi right now. Hopefully it's Georgian planes though. Narking ( talk) 20:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[48] -- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I can't find any sources about Georgia blocking Russian Mass Media. Any help?
The ORT chanel's reporter from Tbilisy said that it's true all .ru sites and Russian chanels were blocked. Even privet companies were not allowed. Morever, many mobile-phone networks stoped working. BWC56 ( talk) 20:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/08/tv/
I have actually not been able to confirm a Georgian blackout of Russian media in Georgia from any other source except lenta. Mobile service is being disrupted. This claim is dubious, are there any other non-russian sources for the blackout? 75.216.27.164 ( talk) 03:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
[49] Black Sea Fleet sails from Sevastopol to Georgian waters. Russian flagship the cruiser Moscow and nine other ships are in the group. -- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't care about your comments. Gazeta Wyborcza is a reliable major newspaper with both national and international awards.-- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[50] -- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
[51] "Meanwhile, around 100 protestors gathered outside the Russian Embassy in Warsaw, Saturday evening, to protest against the “state of war” in the region.
Law and Justice MP Pawel Kowal said he is launching a campaign of solidarity with the Georgian nation and that red and white ribbons - the colours of both the Georgian and Polish flags - should be worn by all politicians, media figures and ordinary members of the public.
“Small gestures can help,” he said. A Day of Solidarity with Georgia is being organised for Monday."
Journalists locked in Tskhinvali are calling for coridor to get out. Novaya Gazeta reporter say, he with correspondents of Interfax, Reuters, Nezavisimaya Gazeta, and some other media, are hiding in basements ant can't get out. Komsomolskaya Pravda journalist Alexander Kots, who tried to walk away from the basement, was wounded by riffle fire and currently is evacuated from Tskhinvali.
"We, journalists of Russian and western media, ask for presidents of Russia, USA, Georgia, governments of western countries, UN, OSCE, and others, to organize a coridor for our evacuation. We, 50 journalists, and more than 200 of women, children and old people, are hiding in the unsafe shelter. In fact, our position is like hostage's, because we can't leave the city amid the fire. We ask for international society, to leaders of the states, to diplomats: we ask to organize a coridor for our evacuation under guarantee by state leaders and international organizations." [52] [53] Garret Beaumain ( talk) 20:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Most likely lied to by their Russian "journalists". You have to understand that in Russia everything serves war and conquering other nations.-- Jagiellow ( talk) 20:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
"The 2008 South Ossetia War started in August 2008 after days of heavy fighting between Georgian forces and pro-Russia South Ossetian separatists"
Is it worth mentioning that South Ossetians are pro-Russian? Should it also be noted, then, that Georgia is pro-US? I'm not much of a Russian patriot, but this article seems to be somewhat biased. -- Exizt ( talk) 20:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
USA is not the part of this conflict. Russia is. So it is important. Perhaps USA will become part of the conflict then we will add that Georgians prefer USA to country which enslaved them and brought terror of communism and russification.--
Jagiellow (
talk) 20:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Russia is the major combatant. It stays. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The BBC is reporting that Russia has confirmed 21 of their soldiers have died. They do not differentiate between the initial peacekeepers and the reinforcements. [ [55]]
What about that Russian source yesterday that said 150 wounded? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.147.53.96 (
talk) 22:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm quite confused by the numerous statements that are attributed to "South Ossetia" in the article. Like most readers I don't have much understanding of the constitutional status of S.O., so it would be good if these statements were expanded to include the information in the footnotes, such as who precisely said these things and in what capacity they represent S.O's population.
Please use four little squiggly things at the top left of your keyboard after a note like that. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It is important to note that the majority of the citations originate from Russian media sources and International media sources via there Moscow Bureaus. Where unverifiable information is unable to be cited properly, it should be deleted. Additionally conflicting reports eminating from Russian and Georgian sources should be presented side by side, i.e. who controls Tskhinvali at this time in the conflict (accredited to CNN with no citation and equally conflicting reports). 75.216.120.189 ( talk) 20:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
In a perfect World... I wish there was a rumors section, with the newest at the top. Oh well, in a perfect world. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 20:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Thats your POV. As far as I can tell CNN is propoganda. Isn't it weird their man talking about Ossetia sits in Tbilisi? Not professional. On ORT an Ossetian said that western media recived information to the capital but no one came. BWC56 ( talk) 20:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
This is not a forum. And, your POV is obvious. Please stop spamming. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Find somewhere else to get rid of your frustrations or start coming up with improvements to the article. Talk/ ♥фĩłдωəß♥\ Work 21:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Most of us are adults and understand there are sides to a conflict. You really don't need to express everything on the other side for us. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, umm, Georgia has mobilised so obviously their strength is not "1 battalion of peacekeepers". Plus you got the whole Russian 58 army there. What are the reasoning behind these figures? ( SebastianGS ( talk) 21:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC))
I have read that Georgia is now willing to go back to behind preconflict borders and to stop responding to Russian aggressions. Should we start finding references and promote this more??? 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
AP:Georgia proposes cease fire in S Ossetia 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
To stop responding to shelling seems to be a little more than a trick to me. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
bwc56 could you please stay neutral "That was a trick" is your opinion. You are not there to say if its a trick or not.
This tidbit seems way too biased and is only referenced from a Russian source. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 21:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Except it is already mentioned under "9 August: Escalation". And, the wording of the article suggests a POV for Russian media. Obviously biased and in the class of propaganda at this point. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Why were the 2 Russian jets removed from casualties & losses it was confirmed by Russia itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 22:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I didn't do it. but, I believe it's because that section deals with people. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 22:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It is casualties and losses. A downed jet is a loss.
Also Georgia confirmed that a number of its aircraft were destroyed on the ground. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
90.190.30.253 (
talk) 22:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It would belong somewhere else in the article. Times, references, and etc. would be nice. 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 23:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It's under "9 August: Escalation" around 8:30 65.68.1.90 ( talk) 23:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
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