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There are already articles (secondary sources) about publication in Russian Defense Department newspaper "Red Star", Matter of timing (Russian) by Ilya Milshtein:
Однако вовсе не этот случай обессмертил имя Сидристого. А всего лишь полторы строчки из его монолога: "7 августа пришла команда на выдвижение к Цхинвалу. Подняли нас по тревоге – и на марш". То есть 7 августа, примерно в те часы, когда президент Саакашвили вероломно объявлял о прекращении перестрелок, 135-й мотострелковый полк российской 58-й армии Северо-Кавказского военного округа входил в Южную Осетию. А в ночь с 7 на 8 августа, как всем известно, грузинский президент начал операцию "Геноцид".
В Кремле и в Генштабе ВС РФ точно знали сроки начала военной операции в Южной Осетии. Из своих эксклюзивных источников, которые прошляпила грузинская контрразведка. Ждали войны как манны небесной. Быть может, по каким-то своим каналам запустили дезу грузинскому руководству: у него развязаны руки, российская армия к отражению удара не готова. Военные самолеты, как в июле, "дабы охладить горячие головы", над Цхинвали тоже никто не запускал. Головы нужны были горячими. Более того: своих солдат ни о чем не предупредили, чтобы не произошло утечки. "Прибыли, разместились, – свидетельствует капитан Сидристый, – а уже 8 августа там полыхнуло с такой силой, что многие даже растерялись".
С блеском осуществленный план заключался в том, чтобы дать возможность Саакашвили совершить любые военные преступления, какие он только успеет совершить за сутки. Позволить ему обстрелять из "Града" спящий город. Заманить его танки в Цхинвали. И лишь потом выбить их оттуда, демонстрируя миру фашизм в тигровой шкуре, в его современном грузинском обличье. (Вообще получилось как с тобой тигрицей: ее выпустили побегать на воле, а в кустах сидел Путин с ружьем...) И, погнав армию Саакашвили до Гори и Тбилиси, с чувством глубочайшей внутренней правоты признать независимость Южной Осетии и Абхазии.
And so on. Biophys ( talk) 14:08, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
But again - the date is presented- August 7, but the time is not. Official Georgian version of this event is 23:30/11:30PM. Georgian forces officially entered military action at 23:50/11:50PM, but other sources give another time - not later than 23:30/11:30PM. Are there another information about time? ( Pubkjre ( talk) 17:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC))
We were doing exercises,” captain Sidristy’s story starts. “This was relatively close to the capital of South Ossetia. Nizhny Zaramakh is a wilderness area in North Ossetia. We made camp there after our scheduled exercises, but on August 7th, the order came to move out towards Tskhinvali. We were raised to a state of alarm, and went on the march. We arrived, settled in, and already on August 8th the fire came down with such force that many even lost their bearings. No, everyone understood that Georgia was preparing something, but it was hard to even imagine what we saw. Immediately after midnight, a massive shelling of the city and peacekeeping positions was started. They hit it from all types of weapons, including artillery rocket systems.”
Analysis
1.The regiment, which is permanently posted in the township of Prokhladny, close to Nalchik, [Kabardino-Balkar Republic], after finishing its exercises (August 2nd), was stationed to Nizhny Zaramag.
2.Nizhny Zaramag is located several kilometers from the northern entrance of the Roki tunnel, and a border station and customs office is located in this town.
3.On August 7th, the regiment received the order to move out toward Tskhinvali, was raised to a state of alarm, and before the end of the day, managed to arrive to its objective destination.
4.After midnight, the lights of the bombardment of Tskhinvali could be seen from the regiment’s position.
5.The site of the regiment’s position is not specified, but it is evident that the regiment passed through the Roki tunnel. Since:
6.Going on the basis of the words, “we arrived, settled in,” one can draw the conclusion that the column did not as yet spend the night by the side of the road, but unloaded in a place where it was possible to provide the military personnel with food and a night’s rest.
7.Between the Roki tunnel and Tskhinvali, there is only one such place: Java.
Conclusion: the 135th motorized rifle regiment entered the territory of South Ossetia before the start of Georgia’s attack on Tskhinvali. Biophys ( talk) 21:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
"A new front has opened between Georgia and Russia, now over which side was the aggressor whose military activities early last month ignited the lopsided five-day war. At issue is new intelligence, inconclusive on its own, that nonetheless paints a more complicated picture of the critical last hours before war broke out.
Georgia has released intercepted telephone calls purporting to show that part of a Russian armored regiment crossed into the separatist enclave of South Ossetia nearly a full day before Georgia’s attack on the capital, Tskhinvali, late on Aug. 7.
Georgia is trying to counter accusations that the long-simmering standoff over South Ossetia, which borders Russia, tilted to war only after it attacked Tskhinvali. Georgia regards the enclave as its sovereign territory."
Georgia Offers Fresh Evidence on War’s Start (NYT) http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/world/europe/16georgia.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=georgia&st=cse&oref=slogin
Calls Intercepted From Georgian Cellphone Network http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/world/europe/16verify.html?ref=europe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.76.37.196 ( talk) 05:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
To User:Biophys, why did you revert the edits I made to the introduction? Please note, that I did not remove any information (other than the NATO part of "According to subsequent reports in the Russian media as well intelligence evidence of Georgia and some NATO states", which I could not find in the source given.) Instead, I added more sourced information to make the introduction more balanced, as I have stated above (and please, read my comments above.) Your argumentation for your reverts was "rv - that was supported by multiple sources." However, this argumentation is not valid, since the only thing I changed was the NATO part. I did not remove/change any other sourced information, therefore I cannot understand your argumentation at all. Note also that by removing the two sentenced I added, you were removing sourced information from the article. Please address these concerns. Offliner ( talk) 20:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: personal attacks are incivil. Ottre 09:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
It's possible that I don't understand a point, but... In “Strength” section S.Ossetian and Abkhazian forces are mentioned like “XXX (not)including reservists; unknown number of volunteers”, but Russian forces are mentioned as “XXX regulars[...]; unknown number of irregulars”. Later in “Casualties” section Abkhazians are mentioned in form “X soldier killed, Y wounded”, S.Ossetians - “Unknown killed, XX militiamen captured”, but Russians are mentioned like “XX soldiers killed, YY wounded, Z captured; Unknown number of losses among the volunteers”.
At first, in “Strength” section volunteers were mentioned only for S.Ossetia and Abkhazia, but not for Russia- so if they don’t exist, I can’t understand the way how they can be lost.
At second, what irregulars on Russian side were meant?.. ( Pubkjre ( talk) 18:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC))
I only know that I saw with my own eyes on Russian TV, that independent russian medias had captured informations of local army administrations, stating more than 2290-3000 dead russian soldiers during the conflict and that the russian government feverishly tries to keep the corpses hidden in unknown massgraves near Vladicavcas or saying that those killed men were georgians ( a russian intilligence source also states 3000 dead georgians but not russians, while all georgian Brigades except the 2nd and 4th, which lost total 170-230 men still have the full personal strenght ). If they were georgians, why would russia beeing so exhausted hiding georgian corpses ? - BTW, no single person thought about the fact, that the main part of russian soldiers who took part in the operation, had no family members.
This just in: The government of Ukraine is in effective collapse over its position on South Ossetia. The Wikipedia article on the event states the following:
"The 2008 Ukrainian political crisis was sparked by the armed conflict between Russia and Georgia that started in early August. The crisis began with a dispute between President Viktor Yushchenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko over Ukraine's reaction to the conflict. The President has presented support for Georgia and strong criticism of Russia whereas other parties have professed a more balanced position towards the two parties of that conflict. Following a vote on a bill to limit the President's powers in which the Prime Minister's Bloc Yulia Tymoshenko voted with the opposition Party of Regions, Yushchenko's Our Ukraine–People's Self-Defense Bloc bloc withdrew from the governing coalition. On September 16, 2008 the collapse of the ruling coalition was officially announced. [2] "
Does this information have any relevance at this point to the article, and if so, where do we put it and in how much detail?
DerekMBarnes (
talk)
04:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Apparently the information is in the article already. I'll consider this talk section closed. DerekMBarnes ( talk) 01:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The lead paragraph needs some major rewriting, because as it stands now it is a major embarrassment to Wikipedia. The whole thing basically consists of bickering over who started the war and completely misses the point of the lead, which according to WP:LEAD should "briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." If the lead paragraph is not fixed by other editors I am going to be bold and do a long revert back to when it actually resembled something coherent.-- 71.112.145.102 ( talk) 17:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Methinks infobox needs to be updated. According to http://www.redstar.ru/2008/09/12_09/3_01.html, SO officials say number of confirmed civilian deaths raised to 700, estimated stated as "around 1700" (i guess it's still 1692 figure available for some time), "some 500 improvised graves already explored, another 200 just found". I will try to find more detailed and direct links. 195.218.211.3 ( talk) 01:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
There are simply not more than 150 dead civilian ossetians. High casulties are amongst the illegal formed armed groups of Kokhoiti, which actually do not really exist anymore after the georgian offensive —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.67.137 ( talk) 11:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
While Rice was extremely critical of Russia's handling the crisis, there is an interesting quote from [3]
Notably, she did not mention anything about Russia's invasion before the Georgian attack, thus basically saying that Georgia started the attack and provoked Russia into a full scale war. ( Igny ( talk) 23:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC))
A few days ago, I made a fairly extensive edit to the article section titled "Timeline of events." It consisted mostly of fixing grammar errors, making the material readable style-wise, and removing information that seemed inappropriate for a short summary that linked into a larger article. (The fundamental content was mostly unchanged.)
Today I looked at it again. While a few of my changes were recognizable, it was just as messy-looking as before, many awkward phrases had been restored, and the same information I had felt cluttered the article was back.
Rather than make a second attempt at editing it myself, I've decided to consult the group on the matter. To be addressed:
I'd like to see some extensive discussion on this before this talk page gets archived. Unfortunately that seems to happen for this article rather quickly. I invite anyone with editing access to contribute their opinions and ideas. Thank you for your participation and assistance. DerekMBarnes ( talk) 22:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
At this point in the discussion I have written, but not posted, a new edit for the Timeline section. The revamp covers most points discussed here, save for the suggestion of removing the bullet-point format (which I am still considering). I have posted the edit on my user page as I did before, and hope to see no less than three editor's critiques posted here. (I will wait this time, I swear.) DerekMBarnes ( talk) 00:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
According to Deputy Secretary of State for Political Affairs William Burns the Russian market has lost a third of its value and it's partly because of the war in Georgia. Only on August 8 Russia saw about 7 billion dollars outflow. [4]. Närking ( talk) 21:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes I also saw that here [7]. Mariah-Yulia ( talk) 14:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
"Georgia has released intercepted telephone calls purporting to show that part of a Russian armored regiment crossed into the separatist enclave of South Ossetia nearly a full day before Georgia’s attack on the capital, Tskhinvali, late on Aug. 7."
Georgia Offers Fresh Evidence on War’s Start a nice article from the NYT about the controversy surrounding who is or isn't the agressor. Grey Fox ( talk) 21:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Since this article was getting rather long, I moved the humanitarian impact section to its own article. In my opinion, this article should concentrate more on the actual war and less on its impacts or on reactions to it. Now the question is, how could we best summarize the humanitarian impact part on this page? Any suggestions? Offliner ( talk) 09:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The strategic war map is wrong, first of all the georgian navy didn't moved anywhere and second, the russian aggression cannot be ever called a counter attack because georgia didn't attack Russia. Let us call it a Russian invasion and aneccion of two seperatist georgian regions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.36.191 ( talk) 18:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
This article is still much to long. Therefore I will try to dramatically shorten or cut several sections. I will leave a justification for each section here, so please reply here first instead of reverting. -- Xeeron ( talk) 16:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
(copied from removed section below) This article is becoming more and more lengthy and certain parts of it need either to be omitted or have its own/different article The time line should be moved into its own article which there is one that already exists, The Humanitarian impact needs to be shortened or moved the the Humanitarian response to the 2008 South Ossetia war, Recognition of breakaway region should be omited. This article is getting to big. -- XChile ( talk) 16:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Some other parts that could need shortening are:
That section was cluttered with tons of statements about parts of the Russian withdrawal that might have been interesting at the time but are outdated and irrelevant now. The main facts of the controversy about the withdrawal have been kept, the rest is gone. I also renamed the title since the section contains not only Russian statements. -- Xeeron ( talk) 16:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
While it is likely that some groups of volunteers formed, it is very doubtful that they actually reached the conflict (seeing how the main road was also heavily used by regular Russian troops). Even if they did, the chances those volunteers were decisive at any stage amount to zilch. Unless there is a good source stating that there was actual fighting by non-SO/Abk volunteers, this should not be in the article. -- Xeeron ( talk) 17:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This minor squabble was occupying a much to big part of the article. Now states fact (nato ships are there), NATO position, Russian position and leaves it at that. If WW3 does indead start in the black sea, we can expand again. Also changed the title to be more precise. -- Xeeron ( talk) 17:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Much to much spotlight on petty internet vandals. Also removed the censorship part from the headline, since the article said precious little about censorship in Georgia and nothing about censorship in Russia. -- Xeeron ( talk) 17:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Link to Georgian MFA was already there, without need for specific link, likewise no need for link to diplomats at UN when there is a link to the MFA of Russia. Also removed SO news agency and the horribly POV non-official link (why was that there in the first place?). Further removed the topographic maps (nothing different than google maps really). -- Xeeron ( talk) 21:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Turned the title around so the instructors would not be alleged (both sides agree they were present). Shortened much of the repeating statements. I left in the last sentence due to give some space to the mercenary allegations, but the sources for that were horrible. It would be great if someone could find the original report, so we do not have to cite a tertiary source speaking of "the unnamed source" while quoting a secondary source. -- Xeeron ( talk) 20:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The first untrue, the second unsourced strong POV, the third completely irrelevant, none of them material deserving of a footnote. All gone now. -- Xeeron ( talk) 20:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Cut down the quotes to three, subsumized critical voices in the first sentence instead of giving several paragraphs. Equally shortened position of Italy and Germany/France. Also moved discussion about "who started it" to a different section. None of that was comming from international leaders (Ideally that part should be moved up towards a revised timeframe). -- Xeeron ( talk) 21:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Shortened the title. Cut away a lot of "who said what" with regards to the signing. Similarly cut down "fighting after signing" statements. Clarified the actual text with 3 quotes: russian official version(english), georgian official version(french) & NYT version (intermediate version with added points, french&english). -- Xeeron ( talk) 22:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I completely removed this section. The information given here was redundant with the infobox: All numbers are present in the infobox already, the infobox even is more detailed on military losses. If additional information on civilian losses turns up in the future, it can be placed in the humanitarian impact sections, where a good part of that information already resides. -- Xeeron ( talk) 12:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
What about this chapter? Does someone else feel it could be shortened / summarized? If yes, what should be left? Offliner ( talk) 16:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, this article is mostly a big piece of mess. It could definitely be made much readable by shortening it. (moving content to separate articles if it's not already there.) Any suggestions or comments on the edits which I tried to make? Offliner ( talk) 17:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Russian Victory ? Something like that is nonexistent and a big sign of Pro-Russian Nazism written down by vandalists.
1./ Russian Army totally missed the aim to completly crush the Georgian Army with it's infrastructur and command structure.
2./ The Russian Army totally missed Krml's aim to capture Tbilisi in 2 days, after the planned offensive against the Republic of Georgia and it's democratic government. It is mainly the merit of the georgian ground forces.
3./ Russia was not able trying to crush a single larger georgian infantry unit without terrifying casulties. Russia was also not able to break through a withdrawing enemy, which stopped firing at the enemy, because of the ceasefire agreement, but had to left a part of it's equipment, that later fell in the hands of seperatists, because of the still advancing russians ( georgians didn't fire a single time after ceasefire ). It was mainly the merit of the georgian artillery.
4./ The Russian Army was not able to move forward, after fierce resistance of splitted groups of georgian special forces in South Ossetia which took out several russian aircrafts and GRU squads. Georgian Commandos report of Russian Commanders who "ran faster with their heaavy cevlar vests, than their soldiers"
5./ The russian 58th army was forced to stop after artillery shells took out nearly the whole forward armored columns of it's 1st and 13th tank batallion, leaving 105-140 burning armored vehicles ( 76 T-72's and 12 T-80's were among the wrecks )
6./ Russia failed to hoist the russian flag on the georgian parliament.
7./ Georgia didn't capitulate
With all due respect, the Russian Army took out 70% of the georgian navy, nearly 80% of the Air Force and destroyed or looted several military bases. The true political intensions of Russia were allready confirmed by NATO and independent russian media sources few days ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.36.191 ( talk) 11:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Can we have some sources please? forgot to log in [[ Slatersteven ( talk) 15:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)]]
Can we just archive this part of the discussion? Or does anyone sane want to argue that Russia's Victory wasn't a Major Victory? I mean 90% of the army gone, I'd consider that a crushing blow. Only a complete moron would set a 2 day objective to capture Tbilisi, and the Kremlin is far from moronic, Medvedev worked out a brilliant economic plan for Russia, Putin stabilized the country, not exactly dull people. 77 killed/missing and a few hundred wounded aren't terrifying casualties. 35 people die in China's nightclubs. Not a single Russian retreat was recorded after the 58th army entered Tskhinvali. And splitted groups by definition cannot offer fierce resistance as they are disorganized. You may want to study up Sun Tzu, Suvorov, or at least McArthur (the dad not the son) on military tactics. The Russian 58th Army had the initiative the entire time, and therefore could not, by definition be forced to stop. As for Russia planting a flag on Georgia's Parliament - umm, this war was over South Ossetia (and later Abkhazia) and Tbilisi just isn't located in South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Georgia begged for American aid and begged the EU to stop the Russians, but certainly that's not called capitulation; . The Russians did do a throughout job of destroying the proud Georgian military base at Senaki. So again, please can we just say Russian Victory or Russian Major Victory, the two are synonymous on wikipedia, and archive this section of the discussion so that I can look it up and laugh and laugh and laugh! Any objections to the archiving? 68.164.150.25 ( talk) 00:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
CIA factbook and US Miliary Experts claim a death-ratio of 1-max2 to 10 for Georgia. The US Military says, that the Georgian Army was not prepared for the offensive which was ordered by Saakashvili, but were able to bring massive casulties upon first russian armored columns and russian GRU forces, few of them allready died in the battle of Tskhinvali (?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.83.86 ( talk) 15:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The references provided in the infobox regarding civilian casualties are a joke and an embaressment. You could not possibly find more blatantly subjective, pro-Russian, anti-factual, sites. 132.185.240.122 ( talk) 09:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: discussion mooted. Ottre 10:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest a rewrite of the August 7 subsection, saying something like the following
I keep calling on cutting this article down in size by moving parts of it into separate articles. I recommend creating a category so that maintaining all such articles is relatively easy, otherwise we may have a trouble with different articles contradicting each other (what we already can see now) ( Igny ( talk) 14:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC))
Here is my proposal (full version is on my user page):
From Spiegel [12]: "4:06 p.m. (7th August), the South Ossetian authorities reported that Tskhinvali had come under under attack from grenade launchers and automatic weapons. Fifty minutes later, they reported "large-scale military aggression against the Republic of South Ossetia." ", "According to Western intelligence sources, the Georgian artillery bombardment of Tskhinvali did not begin until 10:30 p.m. on that Thursday." From BBC [13]: "A series of clashes between Georgian and South Ossetian forces in the summer of 2008 prompted Georgia to launch an aerial bombardment and ground attack on South Ossetia on 7 August."
It looks clear to me that the war began on the evening (or afternoon) of 7th August, and not "in the morning of 8 August" as was stated earlier in the intro. Offliner ( talk) 20:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The Georgian attack at 10:35pm on Aug 7 is not disputed at the moment. I suggest adding all more or less reliable reports on when exactly Russian troops entered South Ossetia. The "exact" time seems to range from early morning of Aug 7 to early morning of Aug 8. Can we add references (from both sides) confirming (claiming) all these times? ( Igny ( talk) 03:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
Wasn't there also a (ground) war in Abkhazia and elsewhere? -- 83.13.196.130 ( talk) 12:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The introduction is not the place to establish whether Russian troops moved into South Ossetia before Georgia attacked Tskhinvali or the other way round. There is a section for that purpose further down in the article, "Discussion about responsibility for starting the war". I deliberately rewrote the introduction without mentioning the timing of those two incidents. Since there is no clear consensus about this issue, please do not reinsert statements about the timing of either the attack on Tskhinvali or the movement of Russian troops through the Roki tunnel (or any other form of "this side acted first") into the introduction. -- Xeeron ( talk) 21:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
( on this edit)The following is written in the NYT article:
“ | Western intelligence determined independently that two battalions of the 135th Regiment moved through the tunnel to South Ossetia either on the night of Aug. 7 or the early morning of Aug. 8, according to a senior American official. | ” |
:So, it's wrong to write that "according to ... intelligence evidence of Georgia and some Western states ... units of Russia's 58th Army had already been ordered to move into South Ossetia ... early on 7th September" Alæxis ¿question? 09:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody point please, where is a reference for "Russian army and South Ossetian fighters aimed at seizing those parts of South Ossetia still held by Georgia" statement? Finalyzer ( talk) 15:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Oppose Wait a second, since there's edit warring, the reader now gets no information? Is that how an encyclopedia works nowadays? I say but BOTH into the intro. Let the reader decide which is more relevant to the war declaration, the Russian troops movenment in the Kodori Tunnel Region, or the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali. Put both and let the reader decide, don't take the easy way out. It's a recent article on military history, and there are going to be uncertanties for at least five months, (would be more if the war was longer) that's going to last well into January or even February depending on how drunk people get in December/early January. It's ok to write "Russia did this" and "Georgia did this" dear reader we don't know, please decide which one led to war. 72.245.82.86 ( talk) 07:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Really, two sentences, nothing major. Although seeing how you were the people claiming the second link was too hard to find (being the second source down) you seem to have very little respect for the average reader. For crying outloud it's two sentences. It won't kill the reader, you make it sound as if I'm offering to present the World here, with claims and counter-claims. There are only two claims here, period. One Georgian, saying Russians were on the South Ossetian side of the Roki Tunnel with tanks, the other Russian, saying that Georgians launched an unprovoked attack on Tskhinvali. 72.245.3.111 ( talk) 01:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
On the Russian side it reads:
"Confirmed by Russia: Unknown killed, 41 militiamen captured[9]
71 soldiers killed, 340 wounded,[10] 6 captured[11] 3 Su-25s and 1 Tu-22M lost,[12]Unknown number of losses among the volunteers
Confirmed by Abkhazia: 1 soldier killed, 2 wounded[13]"
I recommend doing this:
"Confirmed by Russia: Unknown killed, 41 militiamen captured[9]
71 soldiers killed, 340 wounded,[10] 6 captured[11] 3 Su-25s and 1 Tu-22M lost,[12]
Unknown number of losses among the volunteers
Confirmed by Abkhazia: 1 soldier killed, 2 wounded[13]"
Or hitting enter twice before the Unknown number of losses among the volunteers. At the moment it looks quite silly, it looks as if the unknown number of losses among the volunteers involved aircraft. We know that's not the case. Also, it would be cool and make sense to have flags of Russia, N. Ossetia, S. Ossetia, Kossacks and Abkhazia, or at least the Cossacks, as a way to differentiate between the professional army, and the militia volunteers. It'd be helpful to the reader to! Any thoughts?
On another point, why's Russia listed as the agressor? We know that's not the case. 68.164.150.25 ( talk) 06:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Well part of the problem was fixed. Now why are the Russians still listed as agressors (first)? Even Condi Rice - the member of the anti-Russian US League said that Georgians shot first, come on folks. Fix it! 67.101.55.80 ( talk) 04:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
WAIT A SEC! Where did the Georgian Aircraft Losses go? They lost 4 Su-25s and some other stuff. You can put that it's claimed by Russia, but if you're placing air losses from one side, you need them up from another as well. Also, the Georgian casualties according to Russia, just as the Russian casualties according to Georgia should be up there as well. It's how we do all wars, why not do this one like it as well? 68.164.117.79 ( talk) 21:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't get why aircraft losses have to be included into the infobox, but no one considered tanks, guns, etc? Mind you, it was not a "bombing campaign" like Yugoslavia'99 but old-fashioned ground combat for the most part... And how about captured equipment then? - unlike combat losses, these numbers are better known 195.218.210.134 ( talk) 16:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Georgia claimed Russia had bombed airfields and civil and economic infrastructure, including the Black Sea port of Poti. Between eight and eleven Russian jets reportedly hit container tanks and a shipbuilding plant at the port.[147][148] Reuters reported an attack on the civilian Tbilisi International Airport, though Russia claimed otherwise.[149][150] Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temur Iakobashvili also denied this, reportedly stating, "There was no attack on the airport in Tbilisi. It was a factory that produces combat airplanes."[146]
What the heck? They ravaged Georgia, systematically burning and destroying both civilian and military (after "ceasefire") facalities, like the key railroad bridge (also after Russia-agreed "ceasefire"). They completely sacked Georgian villages in the Gori District including the city, and it's not only just the citiziens' apartment homes. The infrastructure damage exceeds $1bln according to Georgia. Also, here's the Goergian list (as of August 25, so before the Russian withdrawal from part of Gori District and thus incomplete). Someone fix it. -- 83.13.196.130 ( talk) 12:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Up till now, I have shortened©edited several subsections of the article to make it readable and more encyclopedic. However 3 sections are still left that are quite long and in need of copyediting: Background, Timeline and Humanitarian impact.
Out of those, Timeline is definitely the hardest, since it both needs the most work (converting from bullet-point day-by-day style to essay style) and has the strongest point of view conflicts in it. So before I start, I want to get some opinions from others about editing that section: Do you agree that it should be essay style? And are there other people willing to help with converting it, while trying to be as unbiased as possible? If I get around to reworking it, the new version would need some corrections to be sure. -- Xeeron ( talk) 19:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Bullet points are quite encyclopedic. Also, we are getting new data on this war, so it may not be the best time to make it into an essay. I mean we still don't know Georgian military casualties, nor do we know S. Ossetia civvie casualties as a large number of them are missing and may or may not be dead. As for shortening it, I don't feel that's encyclopedic, because some events just cannot be short, especially a war where we have to present all sides of the issue. Just my thoughts. We do know that overall less then 2,500 civillians, and maybe as few as 550-700 on both sides, primarily the South Ossetian side. Furthermore neither side is quick at publishing their battle tactics, much to my chagrin, the Russians probably want to use them as a weapon vs. US/NATO/Israel/Ukraine (the people who trained Georgia) and the Georgians don't want to admit being that badly defeated. Israel/Ukraine and most of NATO have also offerred Russia a deal to withhold their tactics from publication, and everyone's waiting for the US, which is of course in no rush to do anything except invade. Anyways, I don't think there's a point in polishing the article that's a work in progress. 68.164.117.79 ( talk) 23:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Bullet-point style is more suited for Timeline of the 2008 South Ossetia war. Essay-style timeline in the main article would make it more comprehensible. Also, the effort of maintaining the two articles in agreement would be less. Billyblind ( talk) 03:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
the modification http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=241926880&oldid=241925496 is destructive. Indication of internal contradictions is important. The references are very relevant. dima ( talk) 03:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Many authors indicate this; it should be considered at least as point of view. Over-vice, the article should be renamed to Russian official interpretation of Russian-Georgian war (2008). dima ( talk) 04:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It is stated that Rohrabacher used "unidentified" sources. However as a senior member of the foreign affairs committee, I believe the source he used was the US Intel available to senior members on foreign affairs committee. The article should include that Dana is a senior member of the foreign affairs committee, and that's where he got his intel from, rather the then unidentified and implicitely questionable source. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Except that sources have to be verifibale by other editors. So by all means provide a link so we can all see this, if not it is OR. Now which US intelgence agencies provided the intel, if they are not identifeid then they are unidentified. Moreover you state that you belive he used those sources, not that he did. Now did he use them or not? Can you provide evidance that he based his statments of In tel or not?[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 16:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)]]
Well in that case I feel that it should at least be mentioned that Rohrabacher is a senior member in the House Of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee, not just some crazy congressman as the article implies. Not being a senior HoR member, I don't have access to that intel. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC) 21:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems fair to say he is a snior member of the commitie.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 17:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)]]
Update made. Please Archive. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The Estonian Cyberwarfare played a minute, if any role in the conflict. Why are the 2007 Cyberattacks on Estonia even mentioned at the end of the article? Can anyone explain this to me? If not, it'll be gone in 24 hours. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Georgia had around 40,000 troops, not 17,500 - that source is old. Someone removed the previous data, which was correct and placed an old source instead, thus trimming down the Georgian forces from 40k to 17.5k a neat trick. "Georgia had a total of 17,500 active personnel in its armed forces in 2002." That's from his source. 2002, it's 2008. Can someone re-update it? HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The article states that the South Ossetian forces had 18,000 members plus unknown number of volunteers. This is utterly ridiculous: The whole population of South Ossetia is 70,000 with more than 20,000 of those being Georgian (highly unlikely to be in the South Ossetian army). Can anybody really expect people to believe that 18,000 out of a 50,000 population are in the army? Plus volunteers if that were not enough? Please remove this piece of Georgian propaganda and stick to the facts. I also echo the previous topic that the claim that the Georgian armed forces only total 17,500 is bogus. Please update. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.173.82 ( talk) 14:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I read the source that is given for this number. The source states that the South Ossetian armed forces number 3,000 with 15,000 reservists. However, the source also states that the Georgian armed forces number 29,000 with 100,000 reservists. This is conveniently ignored. As a general rule, I don't think that the reserve forces should be included in the total number of combatants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.173.82 ( talk) 14:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have edited it to mention the number of reservists seperately from regulars. 3000 regulars is a for more realistic number, considering the 15000 reservists as really amounting to anyone who can be sent to fight out of the muster role basically, from a population of 70,000 people. I don't know why the actual size of the South Ossetian army wasn't mentioned seperately from reserves, I guess it was so the Georgian army would seem more heroic and manly I guess. 79.76.132.46 ( talk) 17:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I admit I am involved in this article, so my opinion on this may be biased. However here is the summary of the suggestions/arguments, feel free to expand them just keep them brief if possible. The arguments above are mainly about popularity of the names and/or their official usage. ( Igny ( talk) 17:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC))
I Belive that Caucasus conflict has been mentioned. I also beleive that at least one of the links (UN) called it Georigian crisis[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 18:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)]]
A few weeks ago, I ran across a one-minute TV spot aired on Georgian Public Broadcasting. I'm told it includes about a dozen Georgian actors and singers urging viewers to "stand together so our country can survive", and culminating with several of them saying "მე მიყვარს საქართველო" (me miq'vars sakartvelo — "I love Georgia"). It's entirely in Georgian, so it was clearly intended for domestic consumption within the country. Is anyone familiar with this video or its background? Would it be appropriate to include some mention of the video somewhere in this article? Richwales ( talk) 04:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
You would be ticked too if Russia instigated and annexed parts of your country like they are doing with Georgia.
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade rat
I think that since there has been so much talk about Russian "brutality", this should also be included. This is the truth about what the Georgian Army did in Tskhinval, from an account by an eyewitness. -- SergeiXXX ( talk) 03:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Thats about as compelling as having a Serbian talk about the Brutality of the Albanians...
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
Should we add a new section to the article?
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/16/AR2008091603322.html?nav=hcmoduletmv
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
I've added an article about the terrorist attack on Russian Peacekeeping Forces (or Russian Army) in South Ossetia's capital of Tskhinvali and a biased POV editor deleted it without bothering to discuss it here. I'm new to Wikipedia - so if anyone can tell me who tries to not report terror attacks on wikipedia, which user, or how I can find out, I would greatly appreciate it. This is unacceptable. You don't just delete a whole section because you don't like it, especially one dealing with terrorists. Are you sympathizing with them? You didn't even bother to change it, you just deleted it. It was well sourced too, three sources for three sentences. Are you engaging in edit wars over not reporting a terrorist attack? What is your overall purpose here? I am fairly certain that you have at least violated one Wikipedia Rule, and if it happens again, I will not hesitate to report it, I have zero tolerance on subjective terrorist reporting, or terrorist hiding. I've had friends in 9/11 and in Beslan. Just letting you know mystery persona. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 05:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
And BTW - if you think something I wrote is biased, you are welcome to discuss it here. Discussion I am open to, deleting the basic facts of the act I'm not. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see the policy WP:TERRORIST. Grey Fox ( talk) 19:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Umm, ok and why was the EU condemnation of the attack deleted? How was that biased? Please do tell, do tell. And Georgia didn't offer condolences. How was that biased? Again do tell. All you did was change the order of the sentences, to somehow make it sound better, and removed several FACTS! Also, those soldiers were heroes to Russians. That's another FACT. Granted, I should have used Car Bomb instead, which the astute leader will equate to terrorism anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoricWarrior007 ( talk • contribs) 20:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Umm, Actually Mr. Grey Fox the Russians did offer condolences to their own troops. Well done on replying to my fact questions with incorrect facst of you own. You are truly a credit to Wikipedia. As for "posting my opinion everywhere" - if I may direct you to Xeeron's suggestion that I "should try moving it to 2008 Georgia–Russia crisis, as it is not part of the war." Furthermore, it's not my opinion, it's factually based, unlike your claim about Russian Condolences. Reading Comprehension is truly a wonderful thing to have. Here's a Chinese source on the issue Mr. Grey Fox, may I, on your behalf, inform them not to post their opinions everywhere? http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6509384.html Aside from calling the Russian soldiers heroes and the EU's condemnation, againt both facts, they pretty much mirror what I wrote before them. If you truly think that you can respond to facts with lies, such as "Russia never gave out their "condolances" either" I urge you to stop. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 09:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the attack in Tskhinvali and the attacks on Georgian police\military personnel do belong here and should be included somewhere in this article in events that occurred in the lead up to a (eventual) finalised peace treaty. To repeat my own opinion, the conflict is still only in a state of cease-fire. As far as I'm aware, Georgia views Russia as having not fulfilled its commitments to the peace plan yet because its forces are still in the buffer zone. Until then, I don't think the two countries are at peace at all. And all the while, in my view these incidents are risking prolonging the conflict.-- ZedderZulu ( talk) 11:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
A typical debate! One serious incident which will be reduced to a 3-line-sentence few weeks ahead. And still assertions stand against assertions. Is it an "attack" or more an "accident" ? Who is responsible for what? Russian soldiers moved a suspicious car from the buffer zone to their HQ themselves. If no remote-controlled bomb can be ascertained no planned attack on Russian HQ has taken place. Who did drive this suspicious car? Russians speak about Georgians, Georgians say it must have been Ossetians. As I said above some news are inserted in this article too early. Elysander ( talk) 09:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The Guardian said it was a Car Bomb Attack, and Car Bomb attacks are considered terrorist attacks, see Islamabad attack and Tomothy McVeigh. Wow, I guess if it's Timothy McVeigh it's a terrorist attack, but if its possibly Georgians, it's not. Wow, just wow. Also, sniping doesn't show clear intent for murder, especially since no one saw the crime taking place. A Car Bomb does show intent for murder. Way to prove yourself wrong Xeeron. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
A attempt to repel a invading force is not a "terrorist" attack, a "terrorist" attack would be a attack on civilians in that manner. This was a attack against military personal during a hostile occupation of a sovereign country. Just because the means of the attack was a car dose not alone qualify it as a "terrorist" attack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear user 75.179 - perhaps you haven't heard this, or you forgot to read the article, but the war's over. I recommend you actually READ the article, before commenting on it. The Article gives two dates for the war's end, and they're both in August. The car bomb attack occurred in October. Also if Georgian forces think it's legitimate, why aren't they saying so? Xeeron, isn't your personal attack on me violating a wikipedia policy? Also, killing special forces in disputed regions, or "police" is what you consider pre-emptive murder? And after that you dare call me a 'waste of time'? I don't think that I'm the one defying logic here. As for Grey Fox - the car bombs I was referring to did not explicitely target civillians. McVeigh's targeted the FBI, an organization the has more rights, AND more responsibilities then the average civillian. The Islamabad Car Bomb, according to a BBC article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7630024.stm - claimed that Fidayeen-e-Islam whose aim was to kick "The purpose of this attack is to kick American crusaders out of Pakistan" especially US Marines. So in short, if Muslims do it, it's terrorism. If Saakashvili does it, it's self-defense. For pointing this out, I'm called the Biased One. Wonderful. Surprisingly the editors calling me biased all want to get this article's name changed. Coincidence? HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 04:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
In the box it says that "Fewer than 100 killed in South Ossetia according to Human Rights Watch". However the actual article reads: "I don't understand where the number of 1,500 comes from," Lokshina told reporters. "Thank God, civilian deaths are not measured in thousands," she said, adding that the number of civilians who died appeared to be "fewer than 100." Lokshina said it was impossible to determine the precise number of casualties at this point." She said that it appears that fewer then 100 were killed, whereas the article presents as if it's a fact, claimed by the HRW, clearly misrepresenting Lokshina's qoute. Go Bias! HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 04:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Is anyone going to make the edit? Or do we all love bias? HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 09:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Human rights watch group's number deleated?
I think the pro- Russian people have launched a censorship campaign once again, the Human rights watch's number was deleted and placed a "impossible to know" in it's place. I think it should be re-instated to maintain neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
It's fine, stop editing it! HRW is a independent source- and they took that number from local hospitals on the 11th- the vast majority of those admitted where military casualties, with some 56 civilians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I am truly wondering if pro-Georgian editors have mastered the art of reading my posts. I've said that if you want to qoute the HRW - you MUST qoute them correctly, and not out of context. When they say "we think the number of casualties is XYZ" and you say the HRW asserts that "the number of casualties is XYZ" - you are in fact being biased. HRW article said that they're not sure, whereas you are saying that they are asserting it. This is called BIAS. Also, not every number's an estimation Grey Fox - the Russian planes lost are at 4, not an estimation. Stop making stuff up to suit your points. Please someone edit in HRW's full quote. In addition, edit in Memorial's full qoute as well, rather then the part that the pro-Georgian editors like. You shouldn't delete it, but give the reader the actual information, not merely the information censored by the pro-Saakashvili editors. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 04:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I am getting a bit annoyed by educating all of the people who know little about the war or the article, but want to edit it. STUDY! A lot of the editors are tired of repeating our comments, over and over and over again. First thing you should do, is breeze through this page. That prevents repetition. Secondly you should read through the archives. Also read the article, and get the relevant info. out of it. And do independent research. Only then do you get to come here and edit.
Also, all of your edits need links and facts. Use Verbatim quotes, or as close as you can possibly get. Don't make stuff up. Although most military historians know that Saakashvili purged or mini-purged his army, we don't put that in the article because we cannot find enough relevant primary sources to back it up. He did a good job destroying that proof. So, either link it, or don't post it, if it's new information. If you are commenting, please READ the comments above you. (If I didn't respond to your comment addressed to me, it's most likely because I thought someone else already did a great job responding.) Gah! This is Wikipedia 101! HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
As we have permission from the Kremlin to use their site materials, I have added to the section 2008_South_Ossetia_war#Recognition_of_breakaway_regions, the video of Medvedev making his announcement on the recognition of A & SO. At the moment it is only in Russian, but still relevant, and I will attempt to find someone who has the ability to add English subtitles to the video. If anyone understands Russian and has this ability, please feel free to do it. I could add an English voiceover to the video, but I think my heavy Aussie accent would distract somewhat from the video itself. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 11:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, strike what I have said. I apologize: By being overly diplomatic and trying not to antagonize you (and being to lazy to type more), I was being unclear and let this be diverted to a subtopic. This is what I should have said to begin with:
Having that video here is a really crappy idea. It does (as all forms of pictures and non-text) lighten up the flow of the article, but thats about it for the positives. On the negative side:
For all of these reasons and for each of them alone, the video needs to be removed. -- Xeeron ( talk) 23:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
You must be joking- anything that comes from Russia is going to be completely unreliable. Only independent sites should be used, this is ludicrous- using a Russian source- absurd! Wiki is neutral not a propaganda outlet for the Soviets.
This "video" should be deleted, its like showing Michal moor's movie as to the history of the Iraq war.
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
What are you talking about? The war was between Russia and Georgia and Georgian rebels, 99% of the countries are independent. The main problem is the media in Russia is state controlled.
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
If you want to remove it, discuss it and then if Consensus is to remove it, then it can be removed. We have approx 5 editors so far who have agreed its presence poses no problem ( edit summary by Russavia) Maybe i have little problem to count to five ... but I'm sure there was never a definite consensus about inserting this senseless and redundant video which is only relevant for the body language of Medvedev, his mimic, decorations, etc. Elysander ( talk) 23:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd say put the video in. Our job as Wikipedia editors is to show ALL points of view, including Medvedev's - that is rather important, considering that he was the Russian President during the war. The video is directly related to the war, and therefore warrants its attention to the article. [Slatersteven - if hockeybull comes to power, US economy goes bankrupt, so no money to send troops to Georgia, and I doubt anyone will go there for free.] Back to the video - bi-lingual speakers, such as myself, find the video rather informative. From what I'm noticing here, my linguistic skills are rather good, so I would be part of that target audience that speaks English. In addition, a transcript is provided. So saying the video is irrelevant is bullshit. Also, all media is biased; media bias alone does not warrant a video to be suspended from Wikipedia. Otherwise Fox News shouldn't be quoted at all, in any article. Post the video back up. Also Grey Fox - if you believe that the recognition of the regions is irrelevant to the article, please do delete the recognition link under the result header in the info. box. Otherwise, you have no claim as to not posting this video. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
There are already articles (secondary sources) about publication in Russian Defense Department newspaper "Red Star", Matter of timing (Russian) by Ilya Milshtein:
Однако вовсе не этот случай обессмертил имя Сидристого. А всего лишь полторы строчки из его монолога: "7 августа пришла команда на выдвижение к Цхинвалу. Подняли нас по тревоге – и на марш". То есть 7 августа, примерно в те часы, когда президент Саакашвили вероломно объявлял о прекращении перестрелок, 135-й мотострелковый полк российской 58-й армии Северо-Кавказского военного округа входил в Южную Осетию. А в ночь с 7 на 8 августа, как всем известно, грузинский президент начал операцию "Геноцид".
В Кремле и в Генштабе ВС РФ точно знали сроки начала военной операции в Южной Осетии. Из своих эксклюзивных источников, которые прошляпила грузинская контрразведка. Ждали войны как манны небесной. Быть может, по каким-то своим каналам запустили дезу грузинскому руководству: у него развязаны руки, российская армия к отражению удара не готова. Военные самолеты, как в июле, "дабы охладить горячие головы", над Цхинвали тоже никто не запускал. Головы нужны были горячими. Более того: своих солдат ни о чем не предупредили, чтобы не произошло утечки. "Прибыли, разместились, – свидетельствует капитан Сидристый, – а уже 8 августа там полыхнуло с такой силой, что многие даже растерялись".
С блеском осуществленный план заключался в том, чтобы дать возможность Саакашвили совершить любые военные преступления, какие он только успеет совершить за сутки. Позволить ему обстрелять из "Града" спящий город. Заманить его танки в Цхинвали. И лишь потом выбить их оттуда, демонстрируя миру фашизм в тигровой шкуре, в его современном грузинском обличье. (Вообще получилось как с тобой тигрицей: ее выпустили побегать на воле, а в кустах сидел Путин с ружьем...) И, погнав армию Саакашвили до Гори и Тбилиси, с чувством глубочайшей внутренней правоты признать независимость Южной Осетии и Абхазии.
And so on. Biophys ( talk) 14:08, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
But again - the date is presented- August 7, but the time is not. Official Georgian version of this event is 23:30/11:30PM. Georgian forces officially entered military action at 23:50/11:50PM, but other sources give another time - not later than 23:30/11:30PM. Are there another information about time? ( Pubkjre ( talk) 17:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC))
We were doing exercises,” captain Sidristy’s story starts. “This was relatively close to the capital of South Ossetia. Nizhny Zaramakh is a wilderness area in North Ossetia. We made camp there after our scheduled exercises, but on August 7th, the order came to move out towards Tskhinvali. We were raised to a state of alarm, and went on the march. We arrived, settled in, and already on August 8th the fire came down with such force that many even lost their bearings. No, everyone understood that Georgia was preparing something, but it was hard to even imagine what we saw. Immediately after midnight, a massive shelling of the city and peacekeeping positions was started. They hit it from all types of weapons, including artillery rocket systems.”
Analysis
1.The regiment, which is permanently posted in the township of Prokhladny, close to Nalchik, [Kabardino-Balkar Republic], after finishing its exercises (August 2nd), was stationed to Nizhny Zaramag.
2.Nizhny Zaramag is located several kilometers from the northern entrance of the Roki tunnel, and a border station and customs office is located in this town.
3.On August 7th, the regiment received the order to move out toward Tskhinvali, was raised to a state of alarm, and before the end of the day, managed to arrive to its objective destination.
4.After midnight, the lights of the bombardment of Tskhinvali could be seen from the regiment’s position.
5.The site of the regiment’s position is not specified, but it is evident that the regiment passed through the Roki tunnel. Since:
6.Going on the basis of the words, “we arrived, settled in,” one can draw the conclusion that the column did not as yet spend the night by the side of the road, but unloaded in a place where it was possible to provide the military personnel with food and a night’s rest.
7.Between the Roki tunnel and Tskhinvali, there is only one such place: Java.
Conclusion: the 135th motorized rifle regiment entered the territory of South Ossetia before the start of Georgia’s attack on Tskhinvali. Biophys ( talk) 21:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
"A new front has opened between Georgia and Russia, now over which side was the aggressor whose military activities early last month ignited the lopsided five-day war. At issue is new intelligence, inconclusive on its own, that nonetheless paints a more complicated picture of the critical last hours before war broke out.
Georgia has released intercepted telephone calls purporting to show that part of a Russian armored regiment crossed into the separatist enclave of South Ossetia nearly a full day before Georgia’s attack on the capital, Tskhinvali, late on Aug. 7.
Georgia is trying to counter accusations that the long-simmering standoff over South Ossetia, which borders Russia, tilted to war only after it attacked Tskhinvali. Georgia regards the enclave as its sovereign territory."
Georgia Offers Fresh Evidence on War’s Start (NYT) http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/world/europe/16georgia.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=georgia&st=cse&oref=slogin
Calls Intercepted From Georgian Cellphone Network http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/world/europe/16verify.html?ref=europe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.76.37.196 ( talk) 05:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
To User:Biophys, why did you revert the edits I made to the introduction? Please note, that I did not remove any information (other than the NATO part of "According to subsequent reports in the Russian media as well intelligence evidence of Georgia and some NATO states", which I could not find in the source given.) Instead, I added more sourced information to make the introduction more balanced, as I have stated above (and please, read my comments above.) Your argumentation for your reverts was "rv - that was supported by multiple sources." However, this argumentation is not valid, since the only thing I changed was the NATO part. I did not remove/change any other sourced information, therefore I cannot understand your argumentation at all. Note also that by removing the two sentenced I added, you were removing sourced information from the article. Please address these concerns. Offliner ( talk) 20:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: personal attacks are incivil. Ottre 09:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
It's possible that I don't understand a point, but... In “Strength” section S.Ossetian and Abkhazian forces are mentioned like “XXX (not)including reservists; unknown number of volunteers”, but Russian forces are mentioned as “XXX regulars[...]; unknown number of irregulars”. Later in “Casualties” section Abkhazians are mentioned in form “X soldier killed, Y wounded”, S.Ossetians - “Unknown killed, XX militiamen captured”, but Russians are mentioned like “XX soldiers killed, YY wounded, Z captured; Unknown number of losses among the volunteers”.
At first, in “Strength” section volunteers were mentioned only for S.Ossetia and Abkhazia, but not for Russia- so if they don’t exist, I can’t understand the way how they can be lost.
At second, what irregulars on Russian side were meant?.. ( Pubkjre ( talk) 18:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC))
I only know that I saw with my own eyes on Russian TV, that independent russian medias had captured informations of local army administrations, stating more than 2290-3000 dead russian soldiers during the conflict and that the russian government feverishly tries to keep the corpses hidden in unknown massgraves near Vladicavcas or saying that those killed men were georgians ( a russian intilligence source also states 3000 dead georgians but not russians, while all georgian Brigades except the 2nd and 4th, which lost total 170-230 men still have the full personal strenght ). If they were georgians, why would russia beeing so exhausted hiding georgian corpses ? - BTW, no single person thought about the fact, that the main part of russian soldiers who took part in the operation, had no family members.
This just in: The government of Ukraine is in effective collapse over its position on South Ossetia. The Wikipedia article on the event states the following:
"The 2008 Ukrainian political crisis was sparked by the armed conflict between Russia and Georgia that started in early August. The crisis began with a dispute between President Viktor Yushchenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko over Ukraine's reaction to the conflict. The President has presented support for Georgia and strong criticism of Russia whereas other parties have professed a more balanced position towards the two parties of that conflict. Following a vote on a bill to limit the President's powers in which the Prime Minister's Bloc Yulia Tymoshenko voted with the opposition Party of Regions, Yushchenko's Our Ukraine–People's Self-Defense Bloc bloc withdrew from the governing coalition. On September 16, 2008 the collapse of the ruling coalition was officially announced. [2] "
Does this information have any relevance at this point to the article, and if so, where do we put it and in how much detail?
DerekMBarnes (
talk)
04:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Apparently the information is in the article already. I'll consider this talk section closed. DerekMBarnes ( talk) 01:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The lead paragraph needs some major rewriting, because as it stands now it is a major embarrassment to Wikipedia. The whole thing basically consists of bickering over who started the war and completely misses the point of the lead, which according to WP:LEAD should "briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." If the lead paragraph is not fixed by other editors I am going to be bold and do a long revert back to when it actually resembled something coherent.-- 71.112.145.102 ( talk) 17:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Methinks infobox needs to be updated. According to http://www.redstar.ru/2008/09/12_09/3_01.html, SO officials say number of confirmed civilian deaths raised to 700, estimated stated as "around 1700" (i guess it's still 1692 figure available for some time), "some 500 improvised graves already explored, another 200 just found". I will try to find more detailed and direct links. 195.218.211.3 ( talk) 01:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
There are simply not more than 150 dead civilian ossetians. High casulties are amongst the illegal formed armed groups of Kokhoiti, which actually do not really exist anymore after the georgian offensive —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.67.137 ( talk) 11:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
While Rice was extremely critical of Russia's handling the crisis, there is an interesting quote from [3]
Notably, she did not mention anything about Russia's invasion before the Georgian attack, thus basically saying that Georgia started the attack and provoked Russia into a full scale war. ( Igny ( talk) 23:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC))
A few days ago, I made a fairly extensive edit to the article section titled "Timeline of events." It consisted mostly of fixing grammar errors, making the material readable style-wise, and removing information that seemed inappropriate for a short summary that linked into a larger article. (The fundamental content was mostly unchanged.)
Today I looked at it again. While a few of my changes were recognizable, it was just as messy-looking as before, many awkward phrases had been restored, and the same information I had felt cluttered the article was back.
Rather than make a second attempt at editing it myself, I've decided to consult the group on the matter. To be addressed:
I'd like to see some extensive discussion on this before this talk page gets archived. Unfortunately that seems to happen for this article rather quickly. I invite anyone with editing access to contribute their opinions and ideas. Thank you for your participation and assistance. DerekMBarnes ( talk) 22:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
At this point in the discussion I have written, but not posted, a new edit for the Timeline section. The revamp covers most points discussed here, save for the suggestion of removing the bullet-point format (which I am still considering). I have posted the edit on my user page as I did before, and hope to see no less than three editor's critiques posted here. (I will wait this time, I swear.) DerekMBarnes ( talk) 00:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
According to Deputy Secretary of State for Political Affairs William Burns the Russian market has lost a third of its value and it's partly because of the war in Georgia. Only on August 8 Russia saw about 7 billion dollars outflow. [4]. Närking ( talk) 21:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes I also saw that here [7]. Mariah-Yulia ( talk) 14:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
"Georgia has released intercepted telephone calls purporting to show that part of a Russian armored regiment crossed into the separatist enclave of South Ossetia nearly a full day before Georgia’s attack on the capital, Tskhinvali, late on Aug. 7."
Georgia Offers Fresh Evidence on War’s Start a nice article from the NYT about the controversy surrounding who is or isn't the agressor. Grey Fox ( talk) 21:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Since this article was getting rather long, I moved the humanitarian impact section to its own article. In my opinion, this article should concentrate more on the actual war and less on its impacts or on reactions to it. Now the question is, how could we best summarize the humanitarian impact part on this page? Any suggestions? Offliner ( talk) 09:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The strategic war map is wrong, first of all the georgian navy didn't moved anywhere and second, the russian aggression cannot be ever called a counter attack because georgia didn't attack Russia. Let us call it a Russian invasion and aneccion of two seperatist georgian regions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.36.191 ( talk) 18:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
This article is still much to long. Therefore I will try to dramatically shorten or cut several sections. I will leave a justification for each section here, so please reply here first instead of reverting. -- Xeeron ( talk) 16:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
(copied from removed section below) This article is becoming more and more lengthy and certain parts of it need either to be omitted or have its own/different article The time line should be moved into its own article which there is one that already exists, The Humanitarian impact needs to be shortened or moved the the Humanitarian response to the 2008 South Ossetia war, Recognition of breakaway region should be omited. This article is getting to big. -- XChile ( talk) 16:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Some other parts that could need shortening are:
That section was cluttered with tons of statements about parts of the Russian withdrawal that might have been interesting at the time but are outdated and irrelevant now. The main facts of the controversy about the withdrawal have been kept, the rest is gone. I also renamed the title since the section contains not only Russian statements. -- Xeeron ( talk) 16:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
While it is likely that some groups of volunteers formed, it is very doubtful that they actually reached the conflict (seeing how the main road was also heavily used by regular Russian troops). Even if they did, the chances those volunteers were decisive at any stage amount to zilch. Unless there is a good source stating that there was actual fighting by non-SO/Abk volunteers, this should not be in the article. -- Xeeron ( talk) 17:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
This minor squabble was occupying a much to big part of the article. Now states fact (nato ships are there), NATO position, Russian position and leaves it at that. If WW3 does indead start in the black sea, we can expand again. Also changed the title to be more precise. -- Xeeron ( talk) 17:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Much to much spotlight on petty internet vandals. Also removed the censorship part from the headline, since the article said precious little about censorship in Georgia and nothing about censorship in Russia. -- Xeeron ( talk) 17:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Link to Georgian MFA was already there, without need for specific link, likewise no need for link to diplomats at UN when there is a link to the MFA of Russia. Also removed SO news agency and the horribly POV non-official link (why was that there in the first place?). Further removed the topographic maps (nothing different than google maps really). -- Xeeron ( talk) 21:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Turned the title around so the instructors would not be alleged (both sides agree they were present). Shortened much of the repeating statements. I left in the last sentence due to give some space to the mercenary allegations, but the sources for that were horrible. It would be great if someone could find the original report, so we do not have to cite a tertiary source speaking of "the unnamed source" while quoting a secondary source. -- Xeeron ( talk) 20:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The first untrue, the second unsourced strong POV, the third completely irrelevant, none of them material deserving of a footnote. All gone now. -- Xeeron ( talk) 20:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Cut down the quotes to three, subsumized critical voices in the first sentence instead of giving several paragraphs. Equally shortened position of Italy and Germany/France. Also moved discussion about "who started it" to a different section. None of that was comming from international leaders (Ideally that part should be moved up towards a revised timeframe). -- Xeeron ( talk) 21:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Shortened the title. Cut away a lot of "who said what" with regards to the signing. Similarly cut down "fighting after signing" statements. Clarified the actual text with 3 quotes: russian official version(english), georgian official version(french) & NYT version (intermediate version with added points, french&english). -- Xeeron ( talk) 22:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I completely removed this section. The information given here was redundant with the infobox: All numbers are present in the infobox already, the infobox even is more detailed on military losses. If additional information on civilian losses turns up in the future, it can be placed in the humanitarian impact sections, where a good part of that information already resides. -- Xeeron ( talk) 12:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
What about this chapter? Does someone else feel it could be shortened / summarized? If yes, what should be left? Offliner ( talk) 16:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, this article is mostly a big piece of mess. It could definitely be made much readable by shortening it. (moving content to separate articles if it's not already there.) Any suggestions or comments on the edits which I tried to make? Offliner ( talk) 17:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Russian Victory ? Something like that is nonexistent and a big sign of Pro-Russian Nazism written down by vandalists.
1./ Russian Army totally missed the aim to completly crush the Georgian Army with it's infrastructur and command structure.
2./ The Russian Army totally missed Krml's aim to capture Tbilisi in 2 days, after the planned offensive against the Republic of Georgia and it's democratic government. It is mainly the merit of the georgian ground forces.
3./ Russia was not able trying to crush a single larger georgian infantry unit without terrifying casulties. Russia was also not able to break through a withdrawing enemy, which stopped firing at the enemy, because of the ceasefire agreement, but had to left a part of it's equipment, that later fell in the hands of seperatists, because of the still advancing russians ( georgians didn't fire a single time after ceasefire ). It was mainly the merit of the georgian artillery.
4./ The Russian Army was not able to move forward, after fierce resistance of splitted groups of georgian special forces in South Ossetia which took out several russian aircrafts and GRU squads. Georgian Commandos report of Russian Commanders who "ran faster with their heaavy cevlar vests, than their soldiers"
5./ The russian 58th army was forced to stop after artillery shells took out nearly the whole forward armored columns of it's 1st and 13th tank batallion, leaving 105-140 burning armored vehicles ( 76 T-72's and 12 T-80's were among the wrecks )
6./ Russia failed to hoist the russian flag on the georgian parliament.
7./ Georgia didn't capitulate
With all due respect, the Russian Army took out 70% of the georgian navy, nearly 80% of the Air Force and destroyed or looted several military bases. The true political intensions of Russia were allready confirmed by NATO and independent russian media sources few days ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.36.191 ( talk) 11:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Can we have some sources please? forgot to log in [[ Slatersteven ( talk) 15:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)]]
Can we just archive this part of the discussion? Or does anyone sane want to argue that Russia's Victory wasn't a Major Victory? I mean 90% of the army gone, I'd consider that a crushing blow. Only a complete moron would set a 2 day objective to capture Tbilisi, and the Kremlin is far from moronic, Medvedev worked out a brilliant economic plan for Russia, Putin stabilized the country, not exactly dull people. 77 killed/missing and a few hundred wounded aren't terrifying casualties. 35 people die in China's nightclubs. Not a single Russian retreat was recorded after the 58th army entered Tskhinvali. And splitted groups by definition cannot offer fierce resistance as they are disorganized. You may want to study up Sun Tzu, Suvorov, or at least McArthur (the dad not the son) on military tactics. The Russian 58th Army had the initiative the entire time, and therefore could not, by definition be forced to stop. As for Russia planting a flag on Georgia's Parliament - umm, this war was over South Ossetia (and later Abkhazia) and Tbilisi just isn't located in South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Georgia begged for American aid and begged the EU to stop the Russians, but certainly that's not called capitulation; . The Russians did do a throughout job of destroying the proud Georgian military base at Senaki. So again, please can we just say Russian Victory or Russian Major Victory, the two are synonymous on wikipedia, and archive this section of the discussion so that I can look it up and laugh and laugh and laugh! Any objections to the archiving? 68.164.150.25 ( talk) 00:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
CIA factbook and US Miliary Experts claim a death-ratio of 1-max2 to 10 for Georgia. The US Military says, that the Georgian Army was not prepared for the offensive which was ordered by Saakashvili, but were able to bring massive casulties upon first russian armored columns and russian GRU forces, few of them allready died in the battle of Tskhinvali (?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.83.86 ( talk) 15:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The references provided in the infobox regarding civilian casualties are a joke and an embaressment. You could not possibly find more blatantly subjective, pro-Russian, anti-factual, sites. 132.185.240.122 ( talk) 09:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: discussion mooted. Ottre 10:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest a rewrite of the August 7 subsection, saying something like the following
I keep calling on cutting this article down in size by moving parts of it into separate articles. I recommend creating a category so that maintaining all such articles is relatively easy, otherwise we may have a trouble with different articles contradicting each other (what we already can see now) ( Igny ( talk) 14:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC))
Here is my proposal (full version is on my user page):
From Spiegel [12]: "4:06 p.m. (7th August), the South Ossetian authorities reported that Tskhinvali had come under under attack from grenade launchers and automatic weapons. Fifty minutes later, they reported "large-scale military aggression against the Republic of South Ossetia." ", "According to Western intelligence sources, the Georgian artillery bombardment of Tskhinvali did not begin until 10:30 p.m. on that Thursday." From BBC [13]: "A series of clashes between Georgian and South Ossetian forces in the summer of 2008 prompted Georgia to launch an aerial bombardment and ground attack on South Ossetia on 7 August."
It looks clear to me that the war began on the evening (or afternoon) of 7th August, and not "in the morning of 8 August" as was stated earlier in the intro. Offliner ( talk) 20:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The Georgian attack at 10:35pm on Aug 7 is not disputed at the moment. I suggest adding all more or less reliable reports on when exactly Russian troops entered South Ossetia. The "exact" time seems to range from early morning of Aug 7 to early morning of Aug 8. Can we add references (from both sides) confirming (claiming) all these times? ( Igny ( talk) 03:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
Wasn't there also a (ground) war in Abkhazia and elsewhere? -- 83.13.196.130 ( talk) 12:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The introduction is not the place to establish whether Russian troops moved into South Ossetia before Georgia attacked Tskhinvali or the other way round. There is a section for that purpose further down in the article, "Discussion about responsibility for starting the war". I deliberately rewrote the introduction without mentioning the timing of those two incidents. Since there is no clear consensus about this issue, please do not reinsert statements about the timing of either the attack on Tskhinvali or the movement of Russian troops through the Roki tunnel (or any other form of "this side acted first") into the introduction. -- Xeeron ( talk) 21:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
( on this edit)The following is written in the NYT article:
“ | Western intelligence determined independently that two battalions of the 135th Regiment moved through the tunnel to South Ossetia either on the night of Aug. 7 or the early morning of Aug. 8, according to a senior American official. | ” |
:So, it's wrong to write that "according to ... intelligence evidence of Georgia and some Western states ... units of Russia's 58th Army had already been ordered to move into South Ossetia ... early on 7th September" Alæxis ¿question? 09:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody point please, where is a reference for "Russian army and South Ossetian fighters aimed at seizing those parts of South Ossetia still held by Georgia" statement? Finalyzer ( talk) 15:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Oppose Wait a second, since there's edit warring, the reader now gets no information? Is that how an encyclopedia works nowadays? I say but BOTH into the intro. Let the reader decide which is more relevant to the war declaration, the Russian troops movenment in the Kodori Tunnel Region, or the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali. Put both and let the reader decide, don't take the easy way out. It's a recent article on military history, and there are going to be uncertanties for at least five months, (would be more if the war was longer) that's going to last well into January or even February depending on how drunk people get in December/early January. It's ok to write "Russia did this" and "Georgia did this" dear reader we don't know, please decide which one led to war. 72.245.82.86 ( talk) 07:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Really, two sentences, nothing major. Although seeing how you were the people claiming the second link was too hard to find (being the second source down) you seem to have very little respect for the average reader. For crying outloud it's two sentences. It won't kill the reader, you make it sound as if I'm offering to present the World here, with claims and counter-claims. There are only two claims here, period. One Georgian, saying Russians were on the South Ossetian side of the Roki Tunnel with tanks, the other Russian, saying that Georgians launched an unprovoked attack on Tskhinvali. 72.245.3.111 ( talk) 01:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
On the Russian side it reads:
"Confirmed by Russia: Unknown killed, 41 militiamen captured[9]
71 soldiers killed, 340 wounded,[10] 6 captured[11] 3 Su-25s and 1 Tu-22M lost,[12]Unknown number of losses among the volunteers
Confirmed by Abkhazia: 1 soldier killed, 2 wounded[13]"
I recommend doing this:
"Confirmed by Russia: Unknown killed, 41 militiamen captured[9]
71 soldiers killed, 340 wounded,[10] 6 captured[11] 3 Su-25s and 1 Tu-22M lost,[12]
Unknown number of losses among the volunteers
Confirmed by Abkhazia: 1 soldier killed, 2 wounded[13]"
Or hitting enter twice before the Unknown number of losses among the volunteers. At the moment it looks quite silly, it looks as if the unknown number of losses among the volunteers involved aircraft. We know that's not the case. Also, it would be cool and make sense to have flags of Russia, N. Ossetia, S. Ossetia, Kossacks and Abkhazia, or at least the Cossacks, as a way to differentiate between the professional army, and the militia volunteers. It'd be helpful to the reader to! Any thoughts?
On another point, why's Russia listed as the agressor? We know that's not the case. 68.164.150.25 ( talk) 06:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Well part of the problem was fixed. Now why are the Russians still listed as agressors (first)? Even Condi Rice - the member of the anti-Russian US League said that Georgians shot first, come on folks. Fix it! 67.101.55.80 ( talk) 04:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
WAIT A SEC! Where did the Georgian Aircraft Losses go? They lost 4 Su-25s and some other stuff. You can put that it's claimed by Russia, but if you're placing air losses from one side, you need them up from another as well. Also, the Georgian casualties according to Russia, just as the Russian casualties according to Georgia should be up there as well. It's how we do all wars, why not do this one like it as well? 68.164.117.79 ( talk) 21:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't get why aircraft losses have to be included into the infobox, but no one considered tanks, guns, etc? Mind you, it was not a "bombing campaign" like Yugoslavia'99 but old-fashioned ground combat for the most part... And how about captured equipment then? - unlike combat losses, these numbers are better known 195.218.210.134 ( talk) 16:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Georgia claimed Russia had bombed airfields and civil and economic infrastructure, including the Black Sea port of Poti. Between eight and eleven Russian jets reportedly hit container tanks and a shipbuilding plant at the port.[147][148] Reuters reported an attack on the civilian Tbilisi International Airport, though Russia claimed otherwise.[149][150] Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temur Iakobashvili also denied this, reportedly stating, "There was no attack on the airport in Tbilisi. It was a factory that produces combat airplanes."[146]
What the heck? They ravaged Georgia, systematically burning and destroying both civilian and military (after "ceasefire") facalities, like the key railroad bridge (also after Russia-agreed "ceasefire"). They completely sacked Georgian villages in the Gori District including the city, and it's not only just the citiziens' apartment homes. The infrastructure damage exceeds $1bln according to Georgia. Also, here's the Goergian list (as of August 25, so before the Russian withdrawal from part of Gori District and thus incomplete). Someone fix it. -- 83.13.196.130 ( talk) 12:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Up till now, I have shortened©edited several subsections of the article to make it readable and more encyclopedic. However 3 sections are still left that are quite long and in need of copyediting: Background, Timeline and Humanitarian impact.
Out of those, Timeline is definitely the hardest, since it both needs the most work (converting from bullet-point day-by-day style to essay style) and has the strongest point of view conflicts in it. So before I start, I want to get some opinions from others about editing that section: Do you agree that it should be essay style? And are there other people willing to help with converting it, while trying to be as unbiased as possible? If I get around to reworking it, the new version would need some corrections to be sure. -- Xeeron ( talk) 19:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Bullet points are quite encyclopedic. Also, we are getting new data on this war, so it may not be the best time to make it into an essay. I mean we still don't know Georgian military casualties, nor do we know S. Ossetia civvie casualties as a large number of them are missing and may or may not be dead. As for shortening it, I don't feel that's encyclopedic, because some events just cannot be short, especially a war where we have to present all sides of the issue. Just my thoughts. We do know that overall less then 2,500 civillians, and maybe as few as 550-700 on both sides, primarily the South Ossetian side. Furthermore neither side is quick at publishing their battle tactics, much to my chagrin, the Russians probably want to use them as a weapon vs. US/NATO/Israel/Ukraine (the people who trained Georgia) and the Georgians don't want to admit being that badly defeated. Israel/Ukraine and most of NATO have also offerred Russia a deal to withhold their tactics from publication, and everyone's waiting for the US, which is of course in no rush to do anything except invade. Anyways, I don't think there's a point in polishing the article that's a work in progress. 68.164.117.79 ( talk) 23:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Bullet-point style is more suited for Timeline of the 2008 South Ossetia war. Essay-style timeline in the main article would make it more comprehensible. Also, the effort of maintaining the two articles in agreement would be less. Billyblind ( talk) 03:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
the modification http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=241926880&oldid=241925496 is destructive. Indication of internal contradictions is important. The references are very relevant. dima ( talk) 03:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Many authors indicate this; it should be considered at least as point of view. Over-vice, the article should be renamed to Russian official interpretation of Russian-Georgian war (2008). dima ( talk) 04:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It is stated that Rohrabacher used "unidentified" sources. However as a senior member of the foreign affairs committee, I believe the source he used was the US Intel available to senior members on foreign affairs committee. The article should include that Dana is a senior member of the foreign affairs committee, and that's where he got his intel from, rather the then unidentified and implicitely questionable source. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Except that sources have to be verifibale by other editors. So by all means provide a link so we can all see this, if not it is OR. Now which US intelgence agencies provided the intel, if they are not identifeid then they are unidentified. Moreover you state that you belive he used those sources, not that he did. Now did he use them or not? Can you provide evidance that he based his statments of In tel or not?[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 16:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)]]
Well in that case I feel that it should at least be mentioned that Rohrabacher is a senior member in the House Of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee, not just some crazy congressman as the article implies. Not being a senior HoR member, I don't have access to that intel. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC) 21:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems fair to say he is a snior member of the commitie.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 17:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)]]
Update made. Please Archive. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
The Estonian Cyberwarfare played a minute, if any role in the conflict. Why are the 2007 Cyberattacks on Estonia even mentioned at the end of the article? Can anyone explain this to me? If not, it'll be gone in 24 hours. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Georgia had around 40,000 troops, not 17,500 - that source is old. Someone removed the previous data, which was correct and placed an old source instead, thus trimming down the Georgian forces from 40k to 17.5k a neat trick. "Georgia had a total of 17,500 active personnel in its armed forces in 2002." That's from his source. 2002, it's 2008. Can someone re-update it? HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 07:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The article states that the South Ossetian forces had 18,000 members plus unknown number of volunteers. This is utterly ridiculous: The whole population of South Ossetia is 70,000 with more than 20,000 of those being Georgian (highly unlikely to be in the South Ossetian army). Can anybody really expect people to believe that 18,000 out of a 50,000 population are in the army? Plus volunteers if that were not enough? Please remove this piece of Georgian propaganda and stick to the facts. I also echo the previous topic that the claim that the Georgian armed forces only total 17,500 is bogus. Please update. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.173.82 ( talk) 14:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I read the source that is given for this number. The source states that the South Ossetian armed forces number 3,000 with 15,000 reservists. However, the source also states that the Georgian armed forces number 29,000 with 100,000 reservists. This is conveniently ignored. As a general rule, I don't think that the reserve forces should be included in the total number of combatants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.173.82 ( talk) 14:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have edited it to mention the number of reservists seperately from regulars. 3000 regulars is a for more realistic number, considering the 15000 reservists as really amounting to anyone who can be sent to fight out of the muster role basically, from a population of 70,000 people. I don't know why the actual size of the South Ossetian army wasn't mentioned seperately from reserves, I guess it was so the Georgian army would seem more heroic and manly I guess. 79.76.132.46 ( talk) 17:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I admit I am involved in this article, so my opinion on this may be biased. However here is the summary of the suggestions/arguments, feel free to expand them just keep them brief if possible. The arguments above are mainly about popularity of the names and/or their official usage. ( Igny ( talk) 17:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC))
I Belive that Caucasus conflict has been mentioned. I also beleive that at least one of the links (UN) called it Georigian crisis[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 18:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)]]
A few weeks ago, I ran across a one-minute TV spot aired on Georgian Public Broadcasting. I'm told it includes about a dozen Georgian actors and singers urging viewers to "stand together so our country can survive", and culminating with several of them saying "მე მიყვარს საქართველო" (me miq'vars sakartvelo — "I love Georgia"). It's entirely in Georgian, so it was clearly intended for domestic consumption within the country. Is anyone familiar with this video or its background? Would it be appropriate to include some mention of the video somewhere in this article? Richwales ( talk) 04:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
You would be ticked too if Russia instigated and annexed parts of your country like they are doing with Georgia.
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade rat
I think that since there has been so much talk about Russian "brutality", this should also be included. This is the truth about what the Georgian Army did in Tskhinval, from an account by an eyewitness. -- SergeiXXX ( talk) 03:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Thats about as compelling as having a Serbian talk about the Brutality of the Albanians...
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
Should we add a new section to the article?
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/16/AR2008091603322.html?nav=hcmoduletmv
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
I've added an article about the terrorist attack on Russian Peacekeeping Forces (or Russian Army) in South Ossetia's capital of Tskhinvali and a biased POV editor deleted it without bothering to discuss it here. I'm new to Wikipedia - so if anyone can tell me who tries to not report terror attacks on wikipedia, which user, or how I can find out, I would greatly appreciate it. This is unacceptable. You don't just delete a whole section because you don't like it, especially one dealing with terrorists. Are you sympathizing with them? You didn't even bother to change it, you just deleted it. It was well sourced too, three sources for three sentences. Are you engaging in edit wars over not reporting a terrorist attack? What is your overall purpose here? I am fairly certain that you have at least violated one Wikipedia Rule, and if it happens again, I will not hesitate to report it, I have zero tolerance on subjective terrorist reporting, or terrorist hiding. I've had friends in 9/11 and in Beslan. Just letting you know mystery persona. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 05:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
And BTW - if you think something I wrote is biased, you are welcome to discuss it here. Discussion I am open to, deleting the basic facts of the act I'm not. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see the policy WP:TERRORIST. Grey Fox ( talk) 19:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Umm, ok and why was the EU condemnation of the attack deleted? How was that biased? Please do tell, do tell. And Georgia didn't offer condolences. How was that biased? Again do tell. All you did was change the order of the sentences, to somehow make it sound better, and removed several FACTS! Also, those soldiers were heroes to Russians. That's another FACT. Granted, I should have used Car Bomb instead, which the astute leader will equate to terrorism anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoricWarrior007 ( talk • contribs) 20:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Umm, Actually Mr. Grey Fox the Russians did offer condolences to their own troops. Well done on replying to my fact questions with incorrect facst of you own. You are truly a credit to Wikipedia. As for "posting my opinion everywhere" - if I may direct you to Xeeron's suggestion that I "should try moving it to 2008 Georgia–Russia crisis, as it is not part of the war." Furthermore, it's not my opinion, it's factually based, unlike your claim about Russian Condolences. Reading Comprehension is truly a wonderful thing to have. Here's a Chinese source on the issue Mr. Grey Fox, may I, on your behalf, inform them not to post their opinions everywhere? http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6509384.html Aside from calling the Russian soldiers heroes and the EU's condemnation, againt both facts, they pretty much mirror what I wrote before them. If you truly think that you can respond to facts with lies, such as "Russia never gave out their "condolances" either" I urge you to stop. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 09:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the attack in Tskhinvali and the attacks on Georgian police\military personnel do belong here and should be included somewhere in this article in events that occurred in the lead up to a (eventual) finalised peace treaty. To repeat my own opinion, the conflict is still only in a state of cease-fire. As far as I'm aware, Georgia views Russia as having not fulfilled its commitments to the peace plan yet because its forces are still in the buffer zone. Until then, I don't think the two countries are at peace at all. And all the while, in my view these incidents are risking prolonging the conflict.-- ZedderZulu ( talk) 11:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
A typical debate! One serious incident which will be reduced to a 3-line-sentence few weeks ahead. And still assertions stand against assertions. Is it an "attack" or more an "accident" ? Who is responsible for what? Russian soldiers moved a suspicious car from the buffer zone to their HQ themselves. If no remote-controlled bomb can be ascertained no planned attack on Russian HQ has taken place. Who did drive this suspicious car? Russians speak about Georgians, Georgians say it must have been Ossetians. As I said above some news are inserted in this article too early. Elysander ( talk) 09:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The Guardian said it was a Car Bomb Attack, and Car Bomb attacks are considered terrorist attacks, see Islamabad attack and Tomothy McVeigh. Wow, I guess if it's Timothy McVeigh it's a terrorist attack, but if its possibly Georgians, it's not. Wow, just wow. Also, sniping doesn't show clear intent for murder, especially since no one saw the crime taking place. A Car Bomb does show intent for murder. Way to prove yourself wrong Xeeron. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
A attempt to repel a invading force is not a "terrorist" attack, a "terrorist" attack would be a attack on civilians in that manner. This was a attack against military personal during a hostile occupation of a sovereign country. Just because the means of the attack was a car dose not alone qualify it as a "terrorist" attack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear user 75.179 - perhaps you haven't heard this, or you forgot to read the article, but the war's over. I recommend you actually READ the article, before commenting on it. The Article gives two dates for the war's end, and they're both in August. The car bomb attack occurred in October. Also if Georgian forces think it's legitimate, why aren't they saying so? Xeeron, isn't your personal attack on me violating a wikipedia policy? Also, killing special forces in disputed regions, or "police" is what you consider pre-emptive murder? And after that you dare call me a 'waste of time'? I don't think that I'm the one defying logic here. As for Grey Fox - the car bombs I was referring to did not explicitely target civillians. McVeigh's targeted the FBI, an organization the has more rights, AND more responsibilities then the average civillian. The Islamabad Car Bomb, according to a BBC article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7630024.stm - claimed that Fidayeen-e-Islam whose aim was to kick "The purpose of this attack is to kick American crusaders out of Pakistan" especially US Marines. So in short, if Muslims do it, it's terrorism. If Saakashvili does it, it's self-defense. For pointing this out, I'm called the Biased One. Wonderful. Surprisingly the editors calling me biased all want to get this article's name changed. Coincidence? HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 04:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
In the box it says that "Fewer than 100 killed in South Ossetia according to Human Rights Watch". However the actual article reads: "I don't understand where the number of 1,500 comes from," Lokshina told reporters. "Thank God, civilian deaths are not measured in thousands," she said, adding that the number of civilians who died appeared to be "fewer than 100." Lokshina said it was impossible to determine the precise number of casualties at this point." She said that it appears that fewer then 100 were killed, whereas the article presents as if it's a fact, claimed by the HRW, clearly misrepresenting Lokshina's qoute. Go Bias! HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 04:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Is anyone going to make the edit? Or do we all love bias? HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 09:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Human rights watch group's number deleated?
I think the pro- Russian people have launched a censorship campaign once again, the Human rights watch's number was deleted and placed a "impossible to know" in it's place. I think it should be re-instated to maintain neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
It's fine, stop editing it! HRW is a independent source- and they took that number from local hospitals on the 11th- the vast majority of those admitted where military casualties, with some 56 civilians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I am truly wondering if pro-Georgian editors have mastered the art of reading my posts. I've said that if you want to qoute the HRW - you MUST qoute them correctly, and not out of context. When they say "we think the number of casualties is XYZ" and you say the HRW asserts that "the number of casualties is XYZ" - you are in fact being biased. HRW article said that they're not sure, whereas you are saying that they are asserting it. This is called BIAS. Also, not every number's an estimation Grey Fox - the Russian planes lost are at 4, not an estimation. Stop making stuff up to suit your points. Please someone edit in HRW's full quote. In addition, edit in Memorial's full qoute as well, rather then the part that the pro-Georgian editors like. You shouldn't delete it, but give the reader the actual information, not merely the information censored by the pro-Saakashvili editors. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 04:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I am getting a bit annoyed by educating all of the people who know little about the war or the article, but want to edit it. STUDY! A lot of the editors are tired of repeating our comments, over and over and over again. First thing you should do, is breeze through this page. That prevents repetition. Secondly you should read through the archives. Also read the article, and get the relevant info. out of it. And do independent research. Only then do you get to come here and edit.
Also, all of your edits need links and facts. Use Verbatim quotes, or as close as you can possibly get. Don't make stuff up. Although most military historians know that Saakashvili purged or mini-purged his army, we don't put that in the article because we cannot find enough relevant primary sources to back it up. He did a good job destroying that proof. So, either link it, or don't post it, if it's new information. If you are commenting, please READ the comments above you. (If I didn't respond to your comment addressed to me, it's most likely because I thought someone else already did a great job responding.) Gah! This is Wikipedia 101! HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
As we have permission from the Kremlin to use their site materials, I have added to the section 2008_South_Ossetia_war#Recognition_of_breakaway_regions, the video of Medvedev making his announcement on the recognition of A & SO. At the moment it is only in Russian, but still relevant, and I will attempt to find someone who has the ability to add English subtitles to the video. If anyone understands Russian and has this ability, please feel free to do it. I could add an English voiceover to the video, but I think my heavy Aussie accent would distract somewhat from the video itself. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 11:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, strike what I have said. I apologize: By being overly diplomatic and trying not to antagonize you (and being to lazy to type more), I was being unclear and let this be diverted to a subtopic. This is what I should have said to begin with:
Having that video here is a really crappy idea. It does (as all forms of pictures and non-text) lighten up the flow of the article, but thats about it for the positives. On the negative side:
For all of these reasons and for each of them alone, the video needs to be removed. -- Xeeron ( talk) 23:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
You must be joking- anything that comes from Russia is going to be completely unreliable. Only independent sites should be used, this is ludicrous- using a Russian source- absurd! Wiki is neutral not a propaganda outlet for the Soviets.
This "video" should be deleted, its like showing Michal moor's movie as to the history of the Iraq war.
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 01:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
What are you talking about? The war was between Russia and Georgia and Georgian rebels, 99% of the countries are independent. The main problem is the media in Russia is state controlled.
75.179.183.114 ( talk) 18:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat
If you want to remove it, discuss it and then if Consensus is to remove it, then it can be removed. We have approx 5 editors so far who have agreed its presence poses no problem ( edit summary by Russavia) Maybe i have little problem to count to five ... but I'm sure there was never a definite consensus about inserting this senseless and redundant video which is only relevant for the body language of Medvedev, his mimic, decorations, etc. Elysander ( talk) 23:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd say put the video in. Our job as Wikipedia editors is to show ALL points of view, including Medvedev's - that is rather important, considering that he was the Russian President during the war. The video is directly related to the war, and therefore warrants its attention to the article. [Slatersteven - if hockeybull comes to power, US economy goes bankrupt, so no money to send troops to Georgia, and I doubt anyone will go there for free.] Back to the video - bi-lingual speakers, such as myself, find the video rather informative. From what I'm noticing here, my linguistic skills are rather good, so I would be part of that target audience that speaks English. In addition, a transcript is provided. So saying the video is irrelevant is bullshit. Also, all media is biased; media bias alone does not warrant a video to be suspended from Wikipedia. Otherwise Fox News shouldn't be quoted at all, in any article. Post the video back up. Also Grey Fox - if you believe that the recognition of the regions is irrelevant to the article, please do delete the recognition link under the result header in the info. box. Otherwise, you have no claim as to not posting this video. HistoricWarrior007 ( talk) 06:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)