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I do not think the Infobox "Results" section is a correct place to put "Ethnic Cleansing" data. I have looked into the different Yugoslav Wars there ethnic cleansing was a usual result of a particular conflict and see none done this way. Besides we have the "Casualty and Losses" section for the information on displaced people Alex Bakharev ( talk) 01:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I think there were cleanses, but it's so diffcult to put it here with realible sources and so on then may be we can put it here later when will be more material for this.-- 212.111.199.30 ( talk) 13:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Today I posted my revisal of the "Timeline of events" section. If anyone has a problem with the alterations I've made, please discuss them here. DerekMBarnes ( talk) 04:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please place regularly in infobox: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19453 put civilian casualties in separate (|casualties3= ) row. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 15:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
A Russia Today article on HRW, in which Alexander Brod of the Moscow Bureau for Human Rights, a respected HR organisation is calling into question accuracy of HRW reports. As much of this article is based upon those reports, this needs to be taken into account in order to provide all POV. Article at. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 15:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
186 soldiers KIA 1964 soldiers WIA 14 soldiers MIA
109 civilians dead 170 civilians wounded
http://www.civil.ge/files/files/Russian%20Invasion%20fact&figures.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 20:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I have been reading the article looking for information about how was the 2008 South Ossetia War. I have not found a single line. Lots of stuff about the preconditions, the ceasefire, who might be right, who not, who was into ethnic cleansing, who not, but not a single letter on the war itself. This is not an article about that war, it is a repository of opinions and points of view. Sorry but I say it as I see it. Greetings. -- MaeseLeon ( talk) 23:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Sarkozy convinced Putin: EU ESDP mission from 1 October onwards, Russian withdrawal from buffer zones within two weeks from that, conference on the future of Abkhazia and South Ossetia on 15 October in Geneva. Should be in the article, but isn't yet, AFAICS. — Nightstallion 22:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
That is not called "a non-aggression treaty." Georgia promises not to use force against the occupiers in Abkhazia and Cxinvali if the EU police mission is established there.-- 93.177.161.196 ( talk) 17:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
An example:
"German
Spiegel online separately reported, on
August 30
2008 that OSCE observers were blaming Georgia for triggering the crisis in a series of unofficial reports presented to the German government.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]"
The first citation is the source itself - Spiegel Magazine. The second quotes the first. So does the third, but, as stated in the reflist "not accurate". The fourth quotes the first, again. There are many single sentences that have three, four or more citations attached, which do not add anything new to sourcing the original quote, which these citations are for.
I think we get the message that the German Spiegel article actually exists with the first citation. Do we really need these additional citations? They do not add to the proof of the original quote's existance and clutter up the text. Isn't the citation for the original quote enough? Otherwise, "International reactions", for example, should be renamed: "International reactions, media reactions to these reactions, and media reactions to media reactions to these reactions". --
megA (
talk)
11:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Additonal little problem. ;) The first citation is not the source itself but a chronicle ( August 25 !! - perhaps updated ). The "right" source on August 30 is only German http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,575396,00.html - in a different way published again in magazine's print editon on Sept. 01). There is a debate on this source in article's archive. ;) Elysander ( talk) 14:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
So. What can be done about this citation diarrhoea? How about that:
-- megA ( talk) 22:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
"Plan of the Georgian military operation Clear Field against South Ossetia ("Causasus. Five days of the august." exhibition of the Central Armed Forces Museum, Moscow, 2008)." [3] What does this show, and according to who? A livejournal user is not good enough.
Second problem is, there's too many images of destruction of Tskhinvali compared to destruction of Georgian cities. We have one image of a destruction in Georgia and Per the WP:UNDUE policy not more than 1 for Tskhinvali should be presented in this article, even if there are a 1000 on commons (they can go to Battle of Tskhinvali). Grey Fox ( talk) 01:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Grey Fox-9589 [4] are deliting this image whit a comment "stop adding this please, it's impossible to determine who is responsible for said damage". I think it is very cynical sense. This image shows who has begun aggression and on it them have cleaned.-- Jaro.p ( talk) 10:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Important result of the conflict is that currently this case is considered in the International Court of Justice. This should be included in the article. dima ( talk) 06:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The exhibition "Caucasus. Five days of August" takes place in the Central Armed Forces Museum of the Russian Federation, Moscow, this month. The Russian side presented various real evidences and photographs on the topic. Some of the photos are available under the free license here and may be used to illustrate the main topic of the article. Information source.
Platinum passports (Russian), by Boris Suvarin, Daily Journal, September 8, 2008, and this is English translation. Biophys ( talk) 03:16, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
It is just silly and rubbish that the russian officials state a number of death russian servicemen that can`t be more lower. Eyewitnesses report that Vladicavcas hospitals are full with uniformed corpses. How can it be that only 75 russians were killed, when the 2nd georgian brigade confirmed the knock out of at least 150 enemy soldiers in their war sector. The Gori Artillery Brigade brought devastating losses upon the russian 58th army first armored columns. 100-160 vehicles were confirmed as destroyed and at least 100-250 soldiers killed. It is the devastating effect of BM-21 Grad MLRS batteries and 2S7 Pion heavy howitzers. Nato soources and military experts estimate 1000 dead russians alone during the breakless artillery fire. Not to talk about the casulties of the illegals abkhazian and ossetian militia band formations. The Georgian army itself stated 113 killed servicemen ( 12 special forces members ) and at least 850 wounded. Of course this statement is also not true. local sources report 200 killed servicemen and 100 reservists.
So please respect the unknown number of dead soldiers and write down true imformations. Nobody counts military sources as the really true ones. So real numbers will appear in several month's or year's. Till then please write down "unknown number" —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I understand your worries about losses and once lived peoples killed, but you know. Saakashvili was talking about 500 tanks and 10-20 Russain airplanes shot down on a first day of the war. So I don't think we can put those 1000s of Russians just like this if there are no confirmation from more sources.-- 212.111.199.30 ( talk) 14:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Do not worry about conformations. The russian side itself confirmed on 12th of september that they have lost more than 1850 soldiers, 105 tanks and 10 BM-21 GRAD —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 22:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Shots fired near a Russian checkpoint outside separatist South Ossetia killed a Georgian police officer Wednesday, and police accused Russian forces of hindering their investigation.
The shooting on the tense line where Georgian authority ends underscored the threat of violence in the area, even as Russia begins to withdraw forces still deep in Georgia a month after a war.
Automatic weapons fire from the vicinity of the Russian roadblock at Karaleti, on a main road leading into South Ossetia, hit the policeman at a Georgian checkpoint half a mile (a kilometer) away, Interior Ministry official Shota Utiashvili said.
The Georgians did not return fire and the policeman later died at a hospital, he said. [5] Grey Fox ( talk) 02:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I like you "Soviet (perhaps, Russian)" :-). It was Stalin order to do so, Georgians. And yes, Georgians did it again ;-).-- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Yep ... indeed the Greatrussian chauvinist Stalin of Ossetian-Georgian origin did order that. ;) Elysander ( talk) 10:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Domitori says: "In addiiton, the Russian version of events is self-contradictory. The official Russian statements about 2000+ victims should be cited in the article; it is very important point to understand what happened in Ossetia and vicinity"
Actually that one was preceded by the words "as many as" - which whatever "unbiased" media you watched clearly failed to report, or you failed to comprehend. Reading Interfax (www.interfax.com) although tedious, is a lot better then watching "unbiased" media that "reports" on the war. 68.166.131.16 ( talk) 23:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I just saw this Reuters article the other day. It claims that the South Ossetians now report that they have found 500 of their dead. Perhaps it would be good to update the article with this information?
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL953954020080909
"Preliminary information received by the investigation team by questioning neighbors and relatives showed that over 1,600 people died in South Ossetia as a result of the invasion by the Georgian army," South Ossetia's Prosecutor-General, Taimuraz Khugayev, told Interfax news agency.
"From those, at this time, investigators have found the circumstances of death and burial places of 500 people." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.239.210 ( talk) 14:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Source: According to Ossetian "authorities", 1500 people were killed in the course of recent war. However, the Investigating commission of Russian Prosecutor's Office reports only 137 deaths. According to Human Rights Watch experts who have inspected the zone of conflict, it is more appropriate to talk in terms of tens of dead, rather than thousands. The deputy director of Moscow office of HRW says that those who are believed to be dead are currently undergoing medical treatment at Georgian hospitals. We should add to the article that the original figure for S.Ossetians believed to be have been killed in the war is actually much lower and that many are in Georgian hospitals. Ijanderson ( talk) 18:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I will not stand POV pushing using weasel words. So I will keep fighting the following awkward construction
My reasons among others would be that FT did not analyse multiples sources, and that " some analysts believe something" was not a conclusion of that article. In fact, if you read FT, you will see that "some analysts" = Felgenhauer with his POV published in Novaya Gazeta. So basically you reference the Felgenhauer's POV as well as FT's comment on it. And do not try to make it sound as if FT reported a fact. In fact it is all a speculation.
Regarding, the witness report about the armored vehicles someone saw near the border. The reference reports correspondent's beliefs, not a fact. It also reported the official and quite reasonable explanation of what he saw, so please do not remove that sourced information.
From now on I will consider pushing this POV as a vandalism and will rv that without further explanation. I think I can not make myself any more clear. ( Igny ( talk) 02:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC))
It is not your place to arbitrarily decide what is a reliable source, the FT meets all of Wikipedias requirements for a valid source, it is in fact a highly regarded source on Wikipedia for its factual accuracy. Breaching the 3RR rule because you don’t like it when other editors introduce verified facts from an accredited and reliable sources is not an excuse, you using your opinion to label edits “vandalism” is not a way to bypass the rules of Wikipedia to which we all have to abide as members of this community. If you continue in your actions in breach of the rules of Wikipedia I’m sure that (and I hope they do) take the relevant action against you. MattUK ( talk) 08:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Oh, yes and there is on important thing. Georgia will look "more" like aggressor if we will remember that this is "Georgia-Ossethia/Abkhazia war", not "Russia-Georgia war", as some editor offer to rename it and some other oppose it :-). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oleg Str ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Those forces can be a result of Russian exercises, they done in response to Georgian exercises they done with Americans BEFORE Russians. Gyyysss? Are you here? Hello-o-o-o It's Georgia started all this mess, and had itself problems after. That is a clear fact. Don't put all upside down. Or better arrange yourself a "Conspiracy" srction where you will tell how Russia armed Georgia, and then made Saakashvili to start killing ppls.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Though war has begun by Georgia, no Georgian army was in territory of Russia. Therefore Russia - an aggressor. 80.86.251.253 ( talk) 04:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Steping on another's territory isn't making him to be agressor or not. Starting the war IS making some one agressor. Georgians didn't "step" but killed alot of Russians. This ocupation was temporary. It's diffirent then Nazis Germany's occupation. Russians stayed there only for short period of time and now are going away. They didn't change government and stop from futher advance by their own decision. They also didn't claim any part of the Georgia. So the only easy_to_prove_by_clear_facts reason for their involvment in war defence of their citizens and stoping the war itself. Again - no capturing of property, no change of govmnt, no capruting of soil. Ossetians/Abkhazians/Georgians where attacking one each other through /those "ongoing skirmishes"/ the border from time to time - everybody knows. But O/A /Ossetians and Abkhazians/ where not making terrorism act is Tbilisi and so on.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
To User:Biophys and Co. Congratulations on the nice work on the article. In the last few days since I was blocked and have not participated in this farce, you successfully managed to turn this article into a mirror of the yellow press. No I take the word "mirror" back, reading this article is the same as reading yellow press. Ballooning this article into a 150kb monster by copying and quite often misrepresenting every quote from any source which could anyhow damage Russia's or whitewash Georgia's images, I have no words, just wow. Factual accuracy of this article became beyond repair, one just can erase 50% of the article or just start from scratch. What a shame.
Anyways, I am looking at development of this article from the sideline for now. I just wanted all of you to know how amazed I am looking at this nice work. ( Igny ( talk) 22:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC))
Here are some quick examples of his questionable edits in this article, I don't have a lot of time to dig deep:
And you can see his more recent edits are for pushing that dubious material about Russian troops entering Georgia on the 7th, despite having no reliable sources, no English sources, despite the only reliable source having pulled the article from its website, and despite it contradicting every other source out there aside from Georgian government propaganda. Maybe I can assume good faith in that maybe he honestly believes what he's doing is "good", despite being in a dishonest manner, but I can't say that he's helping this or any other article with his edits. LokiiT ( talk) 00:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
This part of the article beginning is another pice "Within five days of fighting, Georgian forces were routed and Russian troops effectively occupied the country.[32]". "Routed" means that they decide to leave on their own /like change their mind or smth/? No, they were driven away by force. "Russian troops effectively occupied the country" - they didn't even occupied the Capital of Georgia and hanged Saakashvili on a city square. So thats not an occupied the country. Please revert this to what was before. Also Russian justification of it's involvement in war was "cut out". -- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The timeline for this article is very weak. I suggest the innuendo about who planed what when be moved out into another section, and replaced with actual events on the ground in the conflict regions. What was going on, in particular, from August 3rd through August 6th on the ground? Why did Georgia even feel the need to order the ceasefire of the 7th? The timeline doesn't indicate the actors, intensity, or location of the conflict(s) prior to the Georgian ceasefire. If there was something going on which prompted the ceasefire, why are we Wikipedia readers treated to third-hand reports of what politicians were or were not planning months before in that part of the timeline? Don't we deserve to know the facts on the ground or is this subject still controlled by the amateur propagandists more than the neutral editors? 69.228.205.135 ( talk) 00:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the subchapter "Demands to end conflict" because 1) it didn't say anything new that wasn't already said in the timeline and 2) because the first sentence was, I think, wrong. Here's the original sentence: "On 7 August 2008, a few hours before Georgia began its main offensive operation, Saakashvili ordered a unilateral ceasefire and called for talks "in any format"; reaffirmed the long-standing offer of full autonomy for South Ossetia; proposed that Russia should guarantee that solution; offered a general amnesty; and pleaded for international intercession to stop the hostilities." [11]
Compare this with what the BBC's website says about the 7th August ceasefire: "Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists have been exchanging heavy fire just hours after agreeing to a ceasefire and Russian-mediated talks." [12]
So according to the BBC it certainly wasn't a unilateral ceasefire by the Georgian side. About the last part of the original sentence (full autonomy for SO, general amnesty, etc.) I don't know. The BBC page doesn't mention them. Also, if you take a look at the original sentence's source, it seems (at least to me) to have a strong anti-Russian bias. Doesn't seem like a very reliable source to me. To me, this subchapter seemed wrong and redundant. Offliner ( talk) 01:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Good geo-political background to events in South Ossetia in Chomsky's usual sarcastic style. Billyblind ( talk) 04:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Why if in the article putted that at first Georgia attacked Tskhinvali and then russians answered, in a template of the article illustrated in the beginning Russian+allies forces, casualties, etc. and then Georgian forces? It can confuse. For example, Battle of Iwo Jima, Defense of Brest Fortress, etc. Fist - approaching side. -- 91.78.109.42 ( talk) 05:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
This is a good point. Second. 68.166.131.16 ( talk) 06:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Is there any information on South Ossetian MILITARY wounded/deaths? 70.131.220.19 ( talk) 12:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
As I said in a previous discussion, which got archived only days after being started the discussion over this article's title has clearly reached a consensus on the title. Of those supporting the current title only two had any significant editing history outside this particular subject. Most of those supporting Russian-Georgian War were long-time editors. At the same time of the seven opposing that two were from editors who hardly any, if any, editing history outside of these talk pages and another two expressed support Russian-Georgian conflict so their disagreement is with whether to call it a war or conflict rather than whether it was a Russian-Georgian situation. So rightly we can say there are 10 supporting Russian-Georgian with two suggesting it be called a conflict and eight suggesting it be called a war against three opposing it. What's clear is the established editors have reached a consensus that the current title is not appropriate and it should be changed to something on the order of Russian-Georgian war. I think the lack of action in this regard is appalling and growing increasingly annoying.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 02:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest 2008 War in Georgia as the new title. This follows the pattern of other military articles such as 2006 Lebanon War and War in Somalia (2006–present). Russian-Georgian war is not a good title as it doesn't reflect the involvement of Abkhazia and South Ossetia which are now partially recognized states. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Point of order if I may. As per WP:DASH, the title should be Georgian–Russian War with "–" not "-". I suggest Georgian–Russian War so that it matches Georgia–Russia relations, that article being decided upon by placing alphabetical first; my reasoning for all Category:Bilateral relations of Russia articles is that by naming by alphabetical first, and consistently across the board, importance of one country over another can't be implied. Additionally, any move would require Category:2008 South Ossetia war to be renamed also. If I may make a suggestion, whilst there seems to be consensus to Georgian–Russian War or Russian–Georgian War (with the – not - of course), the category will be decided by the larger community. Not all editors are interested in this article, so may have missed move discussion, as I did believe it or not, but by placing the category up for discussion a larger cross section of the community can supply input also. Thoughts? -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 12:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Keep the discussion for the dedicated page please people. For now, this article can be moved to Russian-Georgian War. If the discussion over time gives different results it can always be changed to something else.
Grey Fox (
talk)
13:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0902/1220301234332.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/31/russia.georgia1 http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2008/08/russia-georgia-europe-nato http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/08/25/russia-ossetia-gergiev-oped-cx_jfl_gap_0826georgiaart.html http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2985/53/ http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/080822/w0822114A.html So until we have a consensus, outside wikipedia, we should not move the article. As this is only about a 'for now' solution then why even move it. Why not leave it where it is, for now, and move it when the dust has settled and there is a common name form the war.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 16:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)]]
An anonymous biased editor suggested that vote count is irrelevant and I agree, that editor's vote doesn't count. What matters is how many established or at least reasonably diversified editors voted a certain way and whether their arguments hold any water. Not a single argument for keeping the current title can be justified in any way. The arguments on POV are coming from pro-Russian editors, many of whom have not edited outside these talk pages. It's not biased to suggest this was a war between Russia and Georgia even the Russian media agrees on this point. The fact of the matter is this current title does not even come close to reflecting the broad scope of the war. This article is linked from the conflict box for former soviet union conflicts as the Second South Ossetia War. That's just garbage because this conflict also saw Abkhazia not only seizing the Kodori Gorge, but extending its territory to the Inguri River. This war started in South Ossetia, but only a complete idiot would suggest this title represents the scope of the conflict. This name was put in place before the conflict spread, once the conflict spread this should have been immediately moved to another name and it still should be. There is not a single viable argument for keeping this title and everything is against keeping this title. The failure to act represents the most pitiful form of POV pandering I can imagine.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 22:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
You forget to mention that Georgia was backed by US, but that's not the reason to call it US-Russia war. Same as you wouldn't rename Vietnam war into "US-Soviet war", even while both were here.
Oppose. It's Georgias and Ossethias/Abkhazians war. You can't take and throw their name out. Saakashvilis main target where Ossethians, not Russians. And I also don't think we can rename it only 'cos some users Googling it like "R-G war". Because you know, that many Western MassMedias /MM/ are still saying that it's Russia's who attacked first. So many ppls still think so, and they are still googling like this. So what? Should we rename it to "Russian agression against Georgia"? We can't be motivated by someones ignorance and misinformation. Wikipedia is a way to give knowlidge, that's as correct as possible. Not to create and suppot myths. -- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Truly never heard about "Heroic and Triumphant response" :-). But it doesn't matter for now - it's only a small detail and for the rest I agree with you. What I want to say - it's common tone in Western MM to call it "Russian-Georgian war", so it's like already Russia attacked Georgia. Articles name should reflect how it was, not what someone "think" of. Now simple numbers to show common ignorance.
As Grey Fox sad.
There are 1.172.000 results for "Russia-Georgia+war" - so those ppls think that Russia attacked first, which is wrong.
There are 1.860.000 almost 100 000 more results for "Russian+aggression+against+Georgia" - which is common way of calling this war in the West, but it's obviously wrong and biased name. So should we rename it to "Russian aggression against Georgia"?
And there are more interesting facts - I've searched for another version of name you want.
There are 23.400.000 results for "Russia+Georgia+war" - wrong, 'cos it's like Russia attacked first.
There are 23.200.000 200.000 less! results for "Georgia+Russia+war" - which is more correct, because it shows that it's Georgia started the war. But those names didn't mention Ossethia and Abkhazia. Which isn't good. Nice we use realable sources for article, but for it's name we are using results of brainwashing and propaganda.
So should we rename article to "Russia Georgia war" only because most Googlers don't know how it was for real? The rules of Wikipedia are to give direction. We can't apply them so dumbly. -- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
OK I think that this has gone on far enough. Whomevers name is first doesn't denote who started it, I just makes sense to name it as such so that people can find the article so it should be changed -- XChile ( talk) 21:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"The Vietnam War, also known as the Second Indochina War, or the Vietnam Conflict, occurred in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia from 1959[1] to April 30, 1975." Vietnam War from Wikipedia. Why is it impossible to write something like that in the article to mention all known names of the war and so stop the "naming battle"?.. ( Pubkjre ( talk) 08:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)).
I might be missing the point here, but what is the problem with the move to "Russian-Georgian War (2008)", firstly, it was between Russia and Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhzia are not soverign nations, even if Russia has "recognised" them, no one else has, and the UN (in all it's irrellevance) hasnt either. Also both sides (Russia and Georgia) regard it as a war, there was a cease fire signed to bring an end to the fighting in the "war", there was a declaration of war, and Russia and Georgia are still technically at war as it was a cease fire, not a peace deal, and finally, it happens in 2008. There is no POV in that title, it is just a statement of fact, and minus the "2008" is the most commonly used name for this in the media. MattUK ( talk) 08:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I was being a bit sarcastic, virtually all the media outside of Russia calls it "the Russian Georgia war", If you re-read what I said I did not recomend dropping the 2008 part from the title, as I in fact recomended "Russian Georgia War - 2008". In general the Falklands war is called exactly that, it isnt called the British liberation of the Falkland islands from Argentinian occupation, the same way that the Vietnam war isnt called the American fight against proxy forces of the USSR in Vietnam, its just called the Vietnam War, the list of examples could go on and on, there is no point because there are loads of them. They are named as such because that is the name in "common" usage, as such this should be called the Russian-Georgian war - 2008, being as that is the second most common name in use after the Russian invasion of Georgia, which would be classed as POV and so cant be used on here. Also "my comments about the UN"? Lets see, 99.99% of the worlds countries do not recognise South Ossetia or Abkhazia as soverign nations, and neither dose the worlds biggest extra-governmental organisation. Also if you really are as dedicated to all this as you claim you should be registered, and not an annon IP user, especially as you havent ever contributed to Wikipedia from your posing history before, so before you start throwing comments about I suggest you take a reality check, and if you are serious about being on Wikipedia, then register. MattUK ( talk) 16:17, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I kind of agree with Russia-Georgia war-- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 12:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
...Just rename it to "2008 War in Georgia" if somebody wants the rename for the sake of the rename... ( Pubkjre ( talk) 06:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC))
Nice reasoning, Pubkjre!
Don't say "Georgia Russia war" will make it easyer to find - typing "Georgia Russia war" in Google gives Wikipedia's "2008 South Ossetia war" on a second line in the list of results. You want to say second /2-nd/ line is "hard to find"? Pay attention - even no "Wiki" was added - I just didn't knnow 'bout that trick.
I also want to add Falklands War /no GB-Argentina/, 1982 Lebanon War, 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict, 2006 Lebanon War (also known as the Second Lebanon War or Israel-Hezbollah war), 2007 Lebanon conflict, 2008 Lebanon conflict ;-).-- Oleg Str ( talk) 07:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The introduction says: "Within five days of fighting, Georgian forces were routed and Russian troops effectively occupied the country." However, Russia didn't occupy the country of Georgia. They occupied only parts of the country which can be seen from the map. If you take a look at the map, the occupied ares make up probably only about 1/8 of Georgia. So I think the wording "effectively occupied the country" is completely wrong, especially since the wording "effectively" isn't used in the source given. Why do we have to use this vague (and to me, wrong) phrase instead of an exact wording?
My second concern is with the use of the word "routed." As User:Oleg Str said above: "Routed" means that they decide to leave on their own /like change their mind or smth/? No, they were driven away by force."
I have tried to change both of these wordings in the past, but they haven been reverted. Why do we have to to use these inaccurate wordings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Offliner ( talk • contribs) 16:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
"According to subsequent reports in the Russian media[31][32], the units of Russia's 58th Army had already been ordered to move into South Ossetia through the Roki Tunnel on September 7th." Yes, on September they were not only ordered to move, but to remove too ;) But by the same way we can say that "Ongoing skirmishes escalated into war" not in the morning of 8 August 2008, but on 7 August 2008 near the midnight (see this discussion). ( Pubkjre ( talk) 20:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC))
Hi there. I saw this edit, and just wanted to clarify. In English, the word 'routed' when used in a military context means, roughly, 'to drive off with a decisive victory.'
Main Entry:
5rout Listen to the pronunciation of 5rout Pronunciation: \ˈrau̇t\ Function: transitive verb Date: circa 1600
1 a: to disorganize completely : demoralize b: to put to precipitate flight c: to defeat decisively or disastrously <the discomfiture of seeing their party routed at the polls — A. N. Holcombe>2: to drive out : dispel
From here. Prince of Canada t | c 08:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The second page of this article reveals some important info that should be added to this article asap:
"One thing was already clear to the officers at NATO headquarters in Brussels: They thought that the Georgians had started the conflict and that their actions were more calculated than pure self-defense or a response to Russian provocation. In fact, the NATO officers believed that the Georgian attack was a calculated offensive against South Ossetian positions to create the facts on the ground, and they coolly treated the exchanges of fire in the preceding days as minor events. Even more clearly, NATO officials believed, looking back, that by no means could these skirmishes be seen as justification for Georgian war preparations."
"According to this intelligence information, the Georgians amassed roughly 12,000 troops on the border with South Ossetia on the morning of Aug. 7. Seventy-five tanks and armored personnel carriers -- a third of the Georgian military's arsenal -- were assembled near Gori. Saakashvili's plan, apparently, was to advance to the Roki Tunnel in a 15-hour blitzkrieg and close the eye of the needle between the northern and southern Caucasus regions, effectively cutting off South Ossetia from Russia."
"At 10:35 p.m. on Aug. 7, less than an hour before Russian tanks entered the Roki Tunnel, according to Saakashvili, Georgian forces began their artillery assault on Tskhinvali. The Georgians used 27 rocket launchers, including 152-millimeter guns, as well as cluster bombs. Three brigades began the nighttime assault."
"The intelligence agencies conclude that the Russian army did not begin firing until 7:30 a.m. on Aug. 8, when it launched an SS-21 short-range ballistic missile on the city of Borzhomi, southwest of Gori."
See, now do you guys understand why we must not use unreliable sources? Because in the mean time, when real reports containing the truth like this are being written up, we're basically spreading lies and hearsay, or at the very least a misleading, incomplete picture. It's not even relevant anymore whether or not Russian troops were moving towards Georgia on the 7th. Not even NATO is buying Georgias victim story. LokiiT ( talk) 09:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Without further comment the same source SPIEGEL in the same report ;) >>
"Is Saakashvili, who only five weeks ago had gained the West's sympathy as the victim of a Russian invasion, already dead politically? Last week he received support from an unexpected source, the Red Star, a newspaper published by the Russian Defense Ministry. The paper published remarks by an officer of the 58th Army, which Moscow has since denied. Nevertheless, the officer, ironically enough, fueled doubts as to the conclusion, by Western intelligence agencies and NATO, that Russian army units had not reached Tskhinvali until Aug. 9.
In the Red Star account, Captain Denis Sidristy, the commander of a company of the 135th Motorized Infantry Regiment, describes how he and his unit were already in the Roki Tunnel, on their way to Tskhinvali, in the night preceding Aug. 8. Did Moscow's invasion begin earlier than the Russians have admitted, after all?
Last week, Moscow investigators also conceded, for the first time, that the number of civilian casualties of the Georgian assault on Tskhinvali was not 2,000, as Russian officials have repeatedly claimed, but 134.
When asked about the account in the Red Star, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry told SPIEGEL that it was the result of a technical error. Moreover, the spokesman said, the official in question had been wounded and therefore "could no longer remember the situation clearly."
Last Friday Captain Sidristy, since decorated with the Russian defense ministry's order of bravery, was given a second opportunity to describe his version of the events to the Red Star. His unit, he said in his revised version, had advanced on Tskhinvali somewhat later than he had told the paper the first time.
As it appears, it is still difficult to separate truth and lies about the brief war in the Caucasus. " Elysander ( talk) 09:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
That's your opinion, it has nothing to do with this article or the report. You're effectively trying to censor reliably sourced information because you don't like it, and at the same time trying to push unreliable, dubious reports for the opposite reason. Please stop reverting my edits. You have made three reverts to this article in under 24 hours. Please take heed to the WP:3RR rule. LokiiT ( talk) 11:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
However according to a NATO intelligence report released on September 15, "less than an hour before Russian tanks entered the Roki Tunnel, according to Saakashvili's claim, Georgian forces began their artillery assault on Tskhinvali." The report concludes that the Russian army did not begin firing until 7:30 a.m. on August 8, and that Georgia's actions were more calculated than pure self-defense or a response to Russian provocation. The NATO officers believed that the Georgian attack was a calculated offensive against South Ossetian positions. [6]
The SPIEGEL report was released or published on Sept 15 2008 not a NATO intelligence report. SPIEGEL did cite directly or indirectly from nonofficial papers and confront these nonofficial papers with one of the known sources documenting Russian military presence in SO. SPIEGEL's conclusion: "As it appears, it is still difficult to separate truth and lies about the brief war in the Caucasus." Elysander ( talk) 11:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Somehow i am barred from editing this article. There has been a series of reports in the Russian press that show that the units of 58th Army were ordered to move into South Ossetia thru the Roki tunnel on 7th Sept. See here Жизнь продолжается ( Krasnaya Zvezda of Sept 3, 2008, - official RF Ministry of Defence paper) AND other links here: СМИ: российские войска вошли в Южную Осетию еще до начала боевых действий NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008. Muscovite99 ( talk) 14:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
There is no requirement to provide English sources per WP:Verifiability. Please see below multiple Russian sources, including official newspaper by the Russian Department of Defense. You know Russian well enough to verify these sources.
Parts of 58th Russian Army moved to the Georgian territory through Roki Tunnel on August 7:
Biophys ( talk) 02:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Independent observers (HRW and Russian Memorial foundation) unable to confirm genocide: http://voanews.com/english/2008-09-11-voa34.cfm-- Mapto ( talk) 14:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I am Russian. Excuse, if there will be errors in the text. I badly know English. Clean all references, except the reference on "red star." In article it is written: "According to multiple reports". All other sources are secondary as refer on "red star." By such principle I can make 1000 sources of the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.208.186.230 ( talk) 19:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Confirming to the words. References to "red star". The reference 78:"Газета "Красная звезда", в отличие от минера из поговорки, ошиблась дважды." The reference 77:" 11 сентября в газете Министерства обороны РФ "Красная звезда" появилась статья "Жизнь продолжается".". The reference 76:The reporter refers on unknown data (the source is not specified). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asomoh ( talk • contribs) 03:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Silence. The answer is not present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asomoh ( talk • contribs) 14:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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I do not think the Infobox "Results" section is a correct place to put "Ethnic Cleansing" data. I have looked into the different Yugoslav Wars there ethnic cleansing was a usual result of a particular conflict and see none done this way. Besides we have the "Casualty and Losses" section for the information on displaced people Alex Bakharev ( talk) 01:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I think there were cleanses, but it's so diffcult to put it here with realible sources and so on then may be we can put it here later when will be more material for this.-- 212.111.199.30 ( talk) 13:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Today I posted my revisal of the "Timeline of events" section. If anyone has a problem with the alterations I've made, please discuss them here. DerekMBarnes ( talk) 04:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please place regularly in infobox: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19453 put civilian casualties in separate (|casualties3= ) row. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 15:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
A Russia Today article on HRW, in which Alexander Brod of the Moscow Bureau for Human Rights, a respected HR organisation is calling into question accuracy of HRW reports. As much of this article is based upon those reports, this needs to be taken into account in order to provide all POV. Article at. -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 15:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
186 soldiers KIA 1964 soldiers WIA 14 soldiers MIA
109 civilians dead 170 civilians wounded
http://www.civil.ge/files/files/Russian%20Invasion%20fact&figures.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 ( talk) 20:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I have been reading the article looking for information about how was the 2008 South Ossetia War. I have not found a single line. Lots of stuff about the preconditions, the ceasefire, who might be right, who not, who was into ethnic cleansing, who not, but not a single letter on the war itself. This is not an article about that war, it is a repository of opinions and points of view. Sorry but I say it as I see it. Greetings. -- MaeseLeon ( talk) 23:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Sarkozy convinced Putin: EU ESDP mission from 1 October onwards, Russian withdrawal from buffer zones within two weeks from that, conference on the future of Abkhazia and South Ossetia on 15 October in Geneva. Should be in the article, but isn't yet, AFAICS. — Nightstallion 22:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
That is not called "a non-aggression treaty." Georgia promises not to use force against the occupiers in Abkhazia and Cxinvali if the EU police mission is established there.-- 93.177.161.196 ( talk) 17:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
An example:
"German
Spiegel online separately reported, on
August 30
2008 that OSCE observers were blaming Georgia for triggering the crisis in a series of unofficial reports presented to the German government.
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]"
The first citation is the source itself - Spiegel Magazine. The second quotes the first. So does the third, but, as stated in the reflist "not accurate". The fourth quotes the first, again. There are many single sentences that have three, four or more citations attached, which do not add anything new to sourcing the original quote, which these citations are for.
I think we get the message that the German Spiegel article actually exists with the first citation. Do we really need these additional citations? They do not add to the proof of the original quote's existance and clutter up the text. Isn't the citation for the original quote enough? Otherwise, "International reactions", for example, should be renamed: "International reactions, media reactions to these reactions, and media reactions to media reactions to these reactions". --
megA (
talk)
11:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Additonal little problem. ;) The first citation is not the source itself but a chronicle ( August 25 !! - perhaps updated ). The "right" source on August 30 is only German http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,575396,00.html - in a different way published again in magazine's print editon on Sept. 01). There is a debate on this source in article's archive. ;) Elysander ( talk) 14:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
So. What can be done about this citation diarrhoea? How about that:
-- megA ( talk) 22:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
"Plan of the Georgian military operation Clear Field against South Ossetia ("Causasus. Five days of the august." exhibition of the Central Armed Forces Museum, Moscow, 2008)." [3] What does this show, and according to who? A livejournal user is not good enough.
Second problem is, there's too many images of destruction of Tskhinvali compared to destruction of Georgian cities. We have one image of a destruction in Georgia and Per the WP:UNDUE policy not more than 1 for Tskhinvali should be presented in this article, even if there are a 1000 on commons (they can go to Battle of Tskhinvali). Grey Fox ( talk) 01:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Grey Fox-9589 [4] are deliting this image whit a comment "stop adding this please, it's impossible to determine who is responsible for said damage". I think it is very cynical sense. This image shows who has begun aggression and on it them have cleaned.-- Jaro.p ( talk) 10:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Important result of the conflict is that currently this case is considered in the International Court of Justice. This should be included in the article. dima ( talk) 06:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The exhibition "Caucasus. Five days of August" takes place in the Central Armed Forces Museum of the Russian Federation, Moscow, this month. The Russian side presented various real evidences and photographs on the topic. Some of the photos are available under the free license here and may be used to illustrate the main topic of the article. Information source.
Platinum passports (Russian), by Boris Suvarin, Daily Journal, September 8, 2008, and this is English translation. Biophys ( talk) 03:16, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
It is just silly and rubbish that the russian officials state a number of death russian servicemen that can`t be more lower. Eyewitnesses report that Vladicavcas hospitals are full with uniformed corpses. How can it be that only 75 russians were killed, when the 2nd georgian brigade confirmed the knock out of at least 150 enemy soldiers in their war sector. The Gori Artillery Brigade brought devastating losses upon the russian 58th army first armored columns. 100-160 vehicles were confirmed as destroyed and at least 100-250 soldiers killed. It is the devastating effect of BM-21 Grad MLRS batteries and 2S7 Pion heavy howitzers. Nato soources and military experts estimate 1000 dead russians alone during the breakless artillery fire. Not to talk about the casulties of the illegals abkhazian and ossetian militia band formations. The Georgian army itself stated 113 killed servicemen ( 12 special forces members ) and at least 850 wounded. Of course this statement is also not true. local sources report 200 killed servicemen and 100 reservists.
So please respect the unknown number of dead soldiers and write down true imformations. Nobody counts military sources as the really true ones. So real numbers will appear in several month's or year's. Till then please write down "unknown number" —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I understand your worries about losses and once lived peoples killed, but you know. Saakashvili was talking about 500 tanks and 10-20 Russain airplanes shot down on a first day of the war. So I don't think we can put those 1000s of Russians just like this if there are no confirmation from more sources.-- 212.111.199.30 ( talk) 14:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Do not worry about conformations. The russian side itself confirmed on 12th of september that they have lost more than 1850 soldiers, 105 tanks and 10 BM-21 GRAD —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL ( talk • contribs) 22:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Shots fired near a Russian checkpoint outside separatist South Ossetia killed a Georgian police officer Wednesday, and police accused Russian forces of hindering their investigation.
The shooting on the tense line where Georgian authority ends underscored the threat of violence in the area, even as Russia begins to withdraw forces still deep in Georgia a month after a war.
Automatic weapons fire from the vicinity of the Russian roadblock at Karaleti, on a main road leading into South Ossetia, hit the policeman at a Georgian checkpoint half a mile (a kilometer) away, Interior Ministry official Shota Utiashvili said.
The Georgians did not return fire and the policeman later died at a hospital, he said. [5] Grey Fox ( talk) 02:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I like you "Soviet (perhaps, Russian)" :-). It was Stalin order to do so, Georgians. And yes, Georgians did it again ;-).-- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Yep ... indeed the Greatrussian chauvinist Stalin of Ossetian-Georgian origin did order that. ;) Elysander ( talk) 10:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Domitori says: "In addiiton, the Russian version of events is self-contradictory. The official Russian statements about 2000+ victims should be cited in the article; it is very important point to understand what happened in Ossetia and vicinity"
Actually that one was preceded by the words "as many as" - which whatever "unbiased" media you watched clearly failed to report, or you failed to comprehend. Reading Interfax (www.interfax.com) although tedious, is a lot better then watching "unbiased" media that "reports" on the war. 68.166.131.16 ( talk) 23:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I just saw this Reuters article the other day. It claims that the South Ossetians now report that they have found 500 of their dead. Perhaps it would be good to update the article with this information?
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL953954020080909
"Preliminary information received by the investigation team by questioning neighbors and relatives showed that over 1,600 people died in South Ossetia as a result of the invasion by the Georgian army," South Ossetia's Prosecutor-General, Taimuraz Khugayev, told Interfax news agency.
"From those, at this time, investigators have found the circumstances of death and burial places of 500 people." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.239.210 ( talk) 14:40, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Source: According to Ossetian "authorities", 1500 people were killed in the course of recent war. However, the Investigating commission of Russian Prosecutor's Office reports only 137 deaths. According to Human Rights Watch experts who have inspected the zone of conflict, it is more appropriate to talk in terms of tens of dead, rather than thousands. The deputy director of Moscow office of HRW says that those who are believed to be dead are currently undergoing medical treatment at Georgian hospitals. We should add to the article that the original figure for S.Ossetians believed to be have been killed in the war is actually much lower and that many are in Georgian hospitals. Ijanderson ( talk) 18:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I will not stand POV pushing using weasel words. So I will keep fighting the following awkward construction
My reasons among others would be that FT did not analyse multiples sources, and that " some analysts believe something" was not a conclusion of that article. In fact, if you read FT, you will see that "some analysts" = Felgenhauer with his POV published in Novaya Gazeta. So basically you reference the Felgenhauer's POV as well as FT's comment on it. And do not try to make it sound as if FT reported a fact. In fact it is all a speculation.
Regarding, the witness report about the armored vehicles someone saw near the border. The reference reports correspondent's beliefs, not a fact. It also reported the official and quite reasonable explanation of what he saw, so please do not remove that sourced information.
From now on I will consider pushing this POV as a vandalism and will rv that without further explanation. I think I can not make myself any more clear. ( Igny ( talk) 02:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC))
It is not your place to arbitrarily decide what is a reliable source, the FT meets all of Wikipedias requirements for a valid source, it is in fact a highly regarded source on Wikipedia for its factual accuracy. Breaching the 3RR rule because you don’t like it when other editors introduce verified facts from an accredited and reliable sources is not an excuse, you using your opinion to label edits “vandalism” is not a way to bypass the rules of Wikipedia to which we all have to abide as members of this community. If you continue in your actions in breach of the rules of Wikipedia I’m sure that (and I hope they do) take the relevant action against you. MattUK ( talk) 08:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Oh, yes and there is on important thing. Georgia will look "more" like aggressor if we will remember that this is "Georgia-Ossethia/Abkhazia war", not "Russia-Georgia war", as some editor offer to rename it and some other oppose it :-). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oleg Str ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Those forces can be a result of Russian exercises, they done in response to Georgian exercises they done with Americans BEFORE Russians. Gyyysss? Are you here? Hello-o-o-o It's Georgia started all this mess, and had itself problems after. That is a clear fact. Don't put all upside down. Or better arrange yourself a "Conspiracy" srction where you will tell how Russia armed Georgia, and then made Saakashvili to start killing ppls.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Though war has begun by Georgia, no Georgian army was in territory of Russia. Therefore Russia - an aggressor. 80.86.251.253 ( talk) 04:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Steping on another's territory isn't making him to be agressor or not. Starting the war IS making some one agressor. Georgians didn't "step" but killed alot of Russians. This ocupation was temporary. It's diffirent then Nazis Germany's occupation. Russians stayed there only for short period of time and now are going away. They didn't change government and stop from futher advance by their own decision. They also didn't claim any part of the Georgia. So the only easy_to_prove_by_clear_facts reason for their involvment in war defence of their citizens and stoping the war itself. Again - no capturing of property, no change of govmnt, no capruting of soil. Ossetians/Abkhazians/Georgians where attacking one each other through /those "ongoing skirmishes"/ the border from time to time - everybody knows. But O/A /Ossetians and Abkhazians/ where not making terrorism act is Tbilisi and so on.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 09:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
To User:Biophys and Co. Congratulations on the nice work on the article. In the last few days since I was blocked and have not participated in this farce, you successfully managed to turn this article into a mirror of the yellow press. No I take the word "mirror" back, reading this article is the same as reading yellow press. Ballooning this article into a 150kb monster by copying and quite often misrepresenting every quote from any source which could anyhow damage Russia's or whitewash Georgia's images, I have no words, just wow. Factual accuracy of this article became beyond repair, one just can erase 50% of the article or just start from scratch. What a shame.
Anyways, I am looking at development of this article from the sideline for now. I just wanted all of you to know how amazed I am looking at this nice work. ( Igny ( talk) 22:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC))
Here are some quick examples of his questionable edits in this article, I don't have a lot of time to dig deep:
And you can see his more recent edits are for pushing that dubious material about Russian troops entering Georgia on the 7th, despite having no reliable sources, no English sources, despite the only reliable source having pulled the article from its website, and despite it contradicting every other source out there aside from Georgian government propaganda. Maybe I can assume good faith in that maybe he honestly believes what he's doing is "good", despite being in a dishonest manner, but I can't say that he's helping this or any other article with his edits. LokiiT ( talk) 00:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
This part of the article beginning is another pice "Within five days of fighting, Georgian forces were routed and Russian troops effectively occupied the country.[32]". "Routed" means that they decide to leave on their own /like change their mind or smth/? No, they were driven away by force. "Russian troops effectively occupied the country" - they didn't even occupied the Capital of Georgia and hanged Saakashvili on a city square. So thats not an occupied the country. Please revert this to what was before. Also Russian justification of it's involvement in war was "cut out". -- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
The timeline for this article is very weak. I suggest the innuendo about who planed what when be moved out into another section, and replaced with actual events on the ground in the conflict regions. What was going on, in particular, from August 3rd through August 6th on the ground? Why did Georgia even feel the need to order the ceasefire of the 7th? The timeline doesn't indicate the actors, intensity, or location of the conflict(s) prior to the Georgian ceasefire. If there was something going on which prompted the ceasefire, why are we Wikipedia readers treated to third-hand reports of what politicians were or were not planning months before in that part of the timeline? Don't we deserve to know the facts on the ground or is this subject still controlled by the amateur propagandists more than the neutral editors? 69.228.205.135 ( talk) 00:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the subchapter "Demands to end conflict" because 1) it didn't say anything new that wasn't already said in the timeline and 2) because the first sentence was, I think, wrong. Here's the original sentence: "On 7 August 2008, a few hours before Georgia began its main offensive operation, Saakashvili ordered a unilateral ceasefire and called for talks "in any format"; reaffirmed the long-standing offer of full autonomy for South Ossetia; proposed that Russia should guarantee that solution; offered a general amnesty; and pleaded for international intercession to stop the hostilities." [11]
Compare this with what the BBC's website says about the 7th August ceasefire: "Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists have been exchanging heavy fire just hours after agreeing to a ceasefire and Russian-mediated talks." [12]
So according to the BBC it certainly wasn't a unilateral ceasefire by the Georgian side. About the last part of the original sentence (full autonomy for SO, general amnesty, etc.) I don't know. The BBC page doesn't mention them. Also, if you take a look at the original sentence's source, it seems (at least to me) to have a strong anti-Russian bias. Doesn't seem like a very reliable source to me. To me, this subchapter seemed wrong and redundant. Offliner ( talk) 01:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Good geo-political background to events in South Ossetia in Chomsky's usual sarcastic style. Billyblind ( talk) 04:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Why if in the article putted that at first Georgia attacked Tskhinvali and then russians answered, in a template of the article illustrated in the beginning Russian+allies forces, casualties, etc. and then Georgian forces? It can confuse. For example, Battle of Iwo Jima, Defense of Brest Fortress, etc. Fist - approaching side. -- 91.78.109.42 ( talk) 05:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
This is a good point. Second. 68.166.131.16 ( talk) 06:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Is there any information on South Ossetian MILITARY wounded/deaths? 70.131.220.19 ( talk) 12:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
As I said in a previous discussion, which got archived only days after being started the discussion over this article's title has clearly reached a consensus on the title. Of those supporting the current title only two had any significant editing history outside this particular subject. Most of those supporting Russian-Georgian War were long-time editors. At the same time of the seven opposing that two were from editors who hardly any, if any, editing history outside of these talk pages and another two expressed support Russian-Georgian conflict so their disagreement is with whether to call it a war or conflict rather than whether it was a Russian-Georgian situation. So rightly we can say there are 10 supporting Russian-Georgian with two suggesting it be called a conflict and eight suggesting it be called a war against three opposing it. What's clear is the established editors have reached a consensus that the current title is not appropriate and it should be changed to something on the order of Russian-Georgian war. I think the lack of action in this regard is appalling and growing increasingly annoying.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 02:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest 2008 War in Georgia as the new title. This follows the pattern of other military articles such as 2006 Lebanon War and War in Somalia (2006–present). Russian-Georgian war is not a good title as it doesn't reflect the involvement of Abkhazia and South Ossetia which are now partially recognized states. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Point of order if I may. As per WP:DASH, the title should be Georgian–Russian War with "–" not "-". I suggest Georgian–Russian War so that it matches Georgia–Russia relations, that article being decided upon by placing alphabetical first; my reasoning for all Category:Bilateral relations of Russia articles is that by naming by alphabetical first, and consistently across the board, importance of one country over another can't be implied. Additionally, any move would require Category:2008 South Ossetia war to be renamed also. If I may make a suggestion, whilst there seems to be consensus to Georgian–Russian War or Russian–Georgian War (with the – not - of course), the category will be decided by the larger community. Not all editors are interested in this article, so may have missed move discussion, as I did believe it or not, but by placing the category up for discussion a larger cross section of the community can supply input also. Thoughts? -- Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 12:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Keep the discussion for the dedicated page please people. For now, this article can be moved to Russian-Georgian War. If the discussion over time gives different results it can always be changed to something else.
Grey Fox (
talk)
13:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0902/1220301234332.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/31/russia.georgia1 http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2008/08/russia-georgia-europe-nato http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/08/25/russia-ossetia-gergiev-oped-cx_jfl_gap_0826georgiaart.html http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/2985/53/ http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/080822/w0822114A.html So until we have a consensus, outside wikipedia, we should not move the article. As this is only about a 'for now' solution then why even move it. Why not leave it where it is, for now, and move it when the dust has settled and there is a common name form the war.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 16:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)]]
An anonymous biased editor suggested that vote count is irrelevant and I agree, that editor's vote doesn't count. What matters is how many established or at least reasonably diversified editors voted a certain way and whether their arguments hold any water. Not a single argument for keeping the current title can be justified in any way. The arguments on POV are coming from pro-Russian editors, many of whom have not edited outside these talk pages. It's not biased to suggest this was a war between Russia and Georgia even the Russian media agrees on this point. The fact of the matter is this current title does not even come close to reflecting the broad scope of the war. This article is linked from the conflict box for former soviet union conflicts as the Second South Ossetia War. That's just garbage because this conflict also saw Abkhazia not only seizing the Kodori Gorge, but extending its territory to the Inguri River. This war started in South Ossetia, but only a complete idiot would suggest this title represents the scope of the conflict. This name was put in place before the conflict spread, once the conflict spread this should have been immediately moved to another name and it still should be. There is not a single viable argument for keeping this title and everything is against keeping this title. The failure to act represents the most pitiful form of POV pandering I can imagine.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 22:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
You forget to mention that Georgia was backed by US, but that's not the reason to call it US-Russia war. Same as you wouldn't rename Vietnam war into "US-Soviet war", even while both were here.
Oppose. It's Georgias and Ossethias/Abkhazians war. You can't take and throw their name out. Saakashvilis main target where Ossethians, not Russians. And I also don't think we can rename it only 'cos some users Googling it like "R-G war". Because you know, that many Western MassMedias /MM/ are still saying that it's Russia's who attacked first. So many ppls still think so, and they are still googling like this. So what? Should we rename it to "Russian agression against Georgia"? We can't be motivated by someones ignorance and misinformation. Wikipedia is a way to give knowlidge, that's as correct as possible. Not to create and suppot myths. -- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Truly never heard about "Heroic and Triumphant response" :-). But it doesn't matter for now - it's only a small detail and for the rest I agree with you. What I want to say - it's common tone in Western MM to call it "Russian-Georgian war", so it's like already Russia attacked Georgia. Articles name should reflect how it was, not what someone "think" of. Now simple numbers to show common ignorance.
As Grey Fox sad.
There are 1.172.000 results for "Russia-Georgia+war" - so those ppls think that Russia attacked first, which is wrong.
There are 1.860.000 almost 100 000 more results for "Russian+aggression+against+Georgia" - which is common way of calling this war in the West, but it's obviously wrong and biased name. So should we rename it to "Russian aggression against Georgia"?
And there are more interesting facts - I've searched for another version of name you want.
There are 23.400.000 results for "Russia+Georgia+war" - wrong, 'cos it's like Russia attacked first.
There are 23.200.000 200.000 less! results for "Georgia+Russia+war" - which is more correct, because it shows that it's Georgia started the war. But those names didn't mention Ossethia and Abkhazia. Which isn't good. Nice we use realable sources for article, but for it's name we are using results of brainwashing and propaganda.
So should we rename article to "Russia Georgia war" only because most Googlers don't know how it was for real? The rules of Wikipedia are to give direction. We can't apply them so dumbly. -- Oleg Str ( talk) 10:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
OK I think that this has gone on far enough. Whomevers name is first doesn't denote who started it, I just makes sense to name it as such so that people can find the article so it should be changed -- XChile ( talk) 21:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
"The Vietnam War, also known as the Second Indochina War, or the Vietnam Conflict, occurred in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia from 1959[1] to April 30, 1975." Vietnam War from Wikipedia. Why is it impossible to write something like that in the article to mention all known names of the war and so stop the "naming battle"?.. ( Pubkjre ( talk) 08:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)).
I might be missing the point here, but what is the problem with the move to "Russian-Georgian War (2008)", firstly, it was between Russia and Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhzia are not soverign nations, even if Russia has "recognised" them, no one else has, and the UN (in all it's irrellevance) hasnt either. Also both sides (Russia and Georgia) regard it as a war, there was a cease fire signed to bring an end to the fighting in the "war", there was a declaration of war, and Russia and Georgia are still technically at war as it was a cease fire, not a peace deal, and finally, it happens in 2008. There is no POV in that title, it is just a statement of fact, and minus the "2008" is the most commonly used name for this in the media. MattUK ( talk) 08:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I was being a bit sarcastic, virtually all the media outside of Russia calls it "the Russian Georgia war", If you re-read what I said I did not recomend dropping the 2008 part from the title, as I in fact recomended "Russian Georgia War - 2008". In general the Falklands war is called exactly that, it isnt called the British liberation of the Falkland islands from Argentinian occupation, the same way that the Vietnam war isnt called the American fight against proxy forces of the USSR in Vietnam, its just called the Vietnam War, the list of examples could go on and on, there is no point because there are loads of them. They are named as such because that is the name in "common" usage, as such this should be called the Russian-Georgian war - 2008, being as that is the second most common name in use after the Russian invasion of Georgia, which would be classed as POV and so cant be used on here. Also "my comments about the UN"? Lets see, 99.99% of the worlds countries do not recognise South Ossetia or Abkhazia as soverign nations, and neither dose the worlds biggest extra-governmental organisation. Also if you really are as dedicated to all this as you claim you should be registered, and not an annon IP user, especially as you havent ever contributed to Wikipedia from your posing history before, so before you start throwing comments about I suggest you take a reality check, and if you are serious about being on Wikipedia, then register. MattUK ( talk) 16:17, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I kind of agree with Russia-Georgia war-- Jaimevelasco ( talk) 12:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
...Just rename it to "2008 War in Georgia" if somebody wants the rename for the sake of the rename... ( Pubkjre ( talk) 06:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC))
Nice reasoning, Pubkjre!
Don't say "Georgia Russia war" will make it easyer to find - typing "Georgia Russia war" in Google gives Wikipedia's "2008 South Ossetia war" on a second line in the list of results. You want to say second /2-nd/ line is "hard to find"? Pay attention - even no "Wiki" was added - I just didn't knnow 'bout that trick.
I also want to add Falklands War /no GB-Argentina/, 1982 Lebanon War, 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict, 2006 Lebanon War (also known as the Second Lebanon War or Israel-Hezbollah war), 2007 Lebanon conflict, 2008 Lebanon conflict ;-).-- Oleg Str ( talk) 07:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The introduction says: "Within five days of fighting, Georgian forces were routed and Russian troops effectively occupied the country." However, Russia didn't occupy the country of Georgia. They occupied only parts of the country which can be seen from the map. If you take a look at the map, the occupied ares make up probably only about 1/8 of Georgia. So I think the wording "effectively occupied the country" is completely wrong, especially since the wording "effectively" isn't used in the source given. Why do we have to use this vague (and to me, wrong) phrase instead of an exact wording?
My second concern is with the use of the word "routed." As User:Oleg Str said above: "Routed" means that they decide to leave on their own /like change their mind or smth/? No, they were driven away by force."
I have tried to change both of these wordings in the past, but they haven been reverted. Why do we have to to use these inaccurate wordings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Offliner ( talk • contribs) 16:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
"According to subsequent reports in the Russian media[31][32], the units of Russia's 58th Army had already been ordered to move into South Ossetia through the Roki Tunnel on September 7th." Yes, on September they were not only ordered to move, but to remove too ;) But by the same way we can say that "Ongoing skirmishes escalated into war" not in the morning of 8 August 2008, but on 7 August 2008 near the midnight (see this discussion). ( Pubkjre ( talk) 20:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC))
Hi there. I saw this edit, and just wanted to clarify. In English, the word 'routed' when used in a military context means, roughly, 'to drive off with a decisive victory.'
Main Entry:
5rout Listen to the pronunciation of 5rout Pronunciation: \ˈrau̇t\ Function: transitive verb Date: circa 1600
1 a: to disorganize completely : demoralize b: to put to precipitate flight c: to defeat decisively or disastrously <the discomfiture of seeing their party routed at the polls — A. N. Holcombe>2: to drive out : dispel
From here. Prince of Canada t | c 08:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The second page of this article reveals some important info that should be added to this article asap:
"One thing was already clear to the officers at NATO headquarters in Brussels: They thought that the Georgians had started the conflict and that their actions were more calculated than pure self-defense or a response to Russian provocation. In fact, the NATO officers believed that the Georgian attack was a calculated offensive against South Ossetian positions to create the facts on the ground, and they coolly treated the exchanges of fire in the preceding days as minor events. Even more clearly, NATO officials believed, looking back, that by no means could these skirmishes be seen as justification for Georgian war preparations."
"According to this intelligence information, the Georgians amassed roughly 12,000 troops on the border with South Ossetia on the morning of Aug. 7. Seventy-five tanks and armored personnel carriers -- a third of the Georgian military's arsenal -- were assembled near Gori. Saakashvili's plan, apparently, was to advance to the Roki Tunnel in a 15-hour blitzkrieg and close the eye of the needle between the northern and southern Caucasus regions, effectively cutting off South Ossetia from Russia."
"At 10:35 p.m. on Aug. 7, less than an hour before Russian tanks entered the Roki Tunnel, according to Saakashvili, Georgian forces began their artillery assault on Tskhinvali. The Georgians used 27 rocket launchers, including 152-millimeter guns, as well as cluster bombs. Three brigades began the nighttime assault."
"The intelligence agencies conclude that the Russian army did not begin firing until 7:30 a.m. on Aug. 8, when it launched an SS-21 short-range ballistic missile on the city of Borzhomi, southwest of Gori."
See, now do you guys understand why we must not use unreliable sources? Because in the mean time, when real reports containing the truth like this are being written up, we're basically spreading lies and hearsay, or at the very least a misleading, incomplete picture. It's not even relevant anymore whether or not Russian troops were moving towards Georgia on the 7th. Not even NATO is buying Georgias victim story. LokiiT ( talk) 09:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Without further comment the same source SPIEGEL in the same report ;) >>
"Is Saakashvili, who only five weeks ago had gained the West's sympathy as the victim of a Russian invasion, already dead politically? Last week he received support from an unexpected source, the Red Star, a newspaper published by the Russian Defense Ministry. The paper published remarks by an officer of the 58th Army, which Moscow has since denied. Nevertheless, the officer, ironically enough, fueled doubts as to the conclusion, by Western intelligence agencies and NATO, that Russian army units had not reached Tskhinvali until Aug. 9.
In the Red Star account, Captain Denis Sidristy, the commander of a company of the 135th Motorized Infantry Regiment, describes how he and his unit were already in the Roki Tunnel, on their way to Tskhinvali, in the night preceding Aug. 8. Did Moscow's invasion begin earlier than the Russians have admitted, after all?
Last week, Moscow investigators also conceded, for the first time, that the number of civilian casualties of the Georgian assault on Tskhinvali was not 2,000, as Russian officials have repeatedly claimed, but 134.
When asked about the account in the Red Star, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry told SPIEGEL that it was the result of a technical error. Moreover, the spokesman said, the official in question had been wounded and therefore "could no longer remember the situation clearly."
Last Friday Captain Sidristy, since decorated with the Russian defense ministry's order of bravery, was given a second opportunity to describe his version of the events to the Red Star. His unit, he said in his revised version, had advanced on Tskhinvali somewhat later than he had told the paper the first time.
As it appears, it is still difficult to separate truth and lies about the brief war in the Caucasus. " Elysander ( talk) 09:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
That's your opinion, it has nothing to do with this article or the report. You're effectively trying to censor reliably sourced information because you don't like it, and at the same time trying to push unreliable, dubious reports for the opposite reason. Please stop reverting my edits. You have made three reverts to this article in under 24 hours. Please take heed to the WP:3RR rule. LokiiT ( talk) 11:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
However according to a NATO intelligence report released on September 15, "less than an hour before Russian tanks entered the Roki Tunnel, according to Saakashvili's claim, Georgian forces began their artillery assault on Tskhinvali." The report concludes that the Russian army did not begin firing until 7:30 a.m. on August 8, and that Georgia's actions were more calculated than pure self-defense or a response to Russian provocation. The NATO officers believed that the Georgian attack was a calculated offensive against South Ossetian positions. [6]
The SPIEGEL report was released or published on Sept 15 2008 not a NATO intelligence report. SPIEGEL did cite directly or indirectly from nonofficial papers and confront these nonofficial papers with one of the known sources documenting Russian military presence in SO. SPIEGEL's conclusion: "As it appears, it is still difficult to separate truth and lies about the brief war in the Caucasus." Elysander ( talk) 11:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Somehow i am barred from editing this article. There has been a series of reports in the Russian press that show that the units of 58th Army were ordered to move into South Ossetia thru the Roki tunnel on 7th Sept. See here Жизнь продолжается ( Krasnaya Zvezda of Sept 3, 2008, - official RF Ministry of Defence paper) AND other links here: СМИ: российские войска вошли в Южную Осетию еще до начала боевых действий NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008. Muscovite99 ( talk) 14:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
There is no requirement to provide English sources per WP:Verifiability. Please see below multiple Russian sources, including official newspaper by the Russian Department of Defense. You know Russian well enough to verify these sources.
Parts of 58th Russian Army moved to the Georgian territory through Roki Tunnel on August 7:
Biophys ( talk) 02:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Independent observers (HRW and Russian Memorial foundation) unable to confirm genocide: http://voanews.com/english/2008-09-11-voa34.cfm-- Mapto ( talk) 14:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I am Russian. Excuse, if there will be errors in the text. I badly know English. Clean all references, except the reference on "red star." In article it is written: "According to multiple reports". All other sources are secondary as refer on "red star." By such principle I can make 1000 sources of the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.208.186.230 ( talk) 19:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Confirming to the words. References to "red star". The reference 78:"Газета "Красная звезда", в отличие от минера из поговорки, ошиблась дважды." The reference 77:" 11 сентября в газете Министерства обороны РФ "Красная звезда" появилась статья "Жизнь продолжается".". The reference 76:The reporter refers on unknown data (the source is not specified). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asomoh ( talk • contribs) 03:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Silence. The answer is not present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asomoh ( talk • contribs) 14:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
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