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What is the reason for this revert? Also, your (Lowi's) statement that it is a partial revert is untrue. Moonshiner 20:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I still do not see any explanation by 3 Löwi. If I do not hear any valid reasons for the revert by the end of Monday, I'll restore my changes to the article. Moonshiner 04:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Russians who migrated to the Baltics were not "ideologically motivated" or anymore loyal to the Soviet Union than Latvians were. Most were simple people who migrated to the region because of economic benefits, for example they were given jobs and/or housing there. In many cases Russians filled the jobs (factory workers etc.) which the locals were less willing to do. ...[snip] it was the Soviet KGB (with both ethnic Latvians and ethnic Russian members) who were killing/deporting ethnic Latvians (as well as ethnic Russians) in the Baltics, not Russian immigrants who settled there. Fisenko 20:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
"Locals were less willing to do", however, is a myth. Mostly, locals didn't do these jobs for two simple reasons:
The original text made a declarative statement along the lines that "ethnic Russians were singled out," which (whether you believe it to be true or not) is not NPOV. You have to qualify a statement like that, and if there is a controversy, you have to provide both sides, which I hoped to do by adding some historical and present-day context, the position held by some of the governments, the concerns expressed by the CE/EU, and the opposing view. If you think some of this was mis-stated or lacked substance, or missed something out, fine, edit it, and add detail to it. But the point of Wikipedia is to provide balanced coverage of issues, not to advance one viewpoint and delete anything that disagrees with it. -- ProhibitOnions 00:06, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I would like to explain some of my edits and would ask to respond here before reverting them:
Please no flames. Let's just stick to the facts. I agree with hidden comments by ProhibitOnions and there is much more to add. Irpen 15:55, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Comments about "illegal Russian immigrants" crossing into Estonia and no Russians leaving are simply inaccurate. First, there was a significant number of ethnic Russians who left Estonia and immigrated to either Russian Fed. or Western Europe/North America in the 1990s. Second, virtually all Russians who cross Estonian border illegally are only using it as a temporary transit point on their way to Western Europe. In regards to “party functionaries”: the largest influx of Communist officials in Soviet history was not from Russia to the Baltics, but from Latvia to Russia after the Bolshevik regime there collapsed in 1918. See Jukums Vacietis, Yakov Peters, Latvian riflemen, Boris Karlovich Pugo etc.
Finally, what relevance does Baltic tribe of Old Prussians has to the discussed history of ethnic Russians/Slavs ? ( Fisenko 17:04, 24 May 2005 (UTC))
More information is good. Nobody "willed" or "not willed" to jobs (it was planned economy), there were qualifications or were weren't; many of worker Russians supposedly had qualifications which locals lacked so it was easier to send them instead of training locals (e.g. to work in certain specific factories or in power plants). While at the start of occupation in all Baltic States and even later in Latva and Estonia all "leading" jobs ha dto be taken by Russians. There ws indeed a settling of Russians in major cities; only reasons for that are disputable. Although there might have been planned rusification in some regions too such as Ida Viruma of Estonia. DeirYassin 17:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Most Russians in the Baltic were low to medium income factory workers, as well as sailors, soldiers etc. These are hardly "leading" jobs. ( Fisenko 18:09, 24 May 2005 (UTC))
I have met Russians who respect Lithuanian culture and Lithuanians who disrespect Russian culture. This kind of accusations are nothing more than biased generalizations, there is no place for it in an academic discussion and no need to provide "proof" or "documentation" to justify your prejudices. Aside from Finland there are many other examples of bilingual and multilingual states (Canada, Belgium, South Africa, Switzeland etc.) where various ethnic groups are able to preserve their national identities. ( Fisenko 08:44, 25 May 2005 (UTC))
I live in Latvia, I am latvian and I don`t speak in russian so maybe I am not fully informated of oppinions of russian part of society, still I think that your oppinions are stereotipical and you tend to view nations as one, not as consisting of many peoples. I was slithly interested about whole affair so I tried to get other people oppinions in internet (few forums), what I learned was that if latvian nationalists apears whole comunity will argue with them and that russians are bored of talking about it over and over again, well that was few years ago when I got those russian oppinions maybe they think diferrent now. What I learned from recent events was that some russians think that they know latvian language better then latvians and that they have brought culture to latvians and I think that is disrespect, I also think that it is disrespect and provoking to plan ilegal protests on national holydays, if there is posibility make legal protests in other days. I couldn`t find any poll nor about latvian, nor about non-latvian thoughts about each other, so I can only tell the diferrence by results of last elections where no latvian nationalists were elected, while russian nationalists was, but many latvians also could have voted for them, so that is bad measure for teling how many nationalists there are from each part of society. What I`m trying to say is that there aren`t many latvian nationalists and it does not seem that there are many russians since their protests are outnumbered and it looks like that those people making those protests just try to make latvians and russians hate each other
In case of a national name, in English WP an English variant of the name should be used if there is one, that is if there is a variant established by, say, English language media. This coach's name, due to the relative obscurity of the topic of Latvian Soccer in the world news, has not established in English media. So, the variant which should be used in WP should depend on the context of the usage. In the article about Latvian soccer it should be Aleksandrs Starkovs. In the article about Baltic Russians, the original Aleksandr Starkov should be used. Irpen 20:18, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
This argument can only convinced someone unfamiliar with the Russian names and Russians in Latvia. Nowhere else in the world are Russian names are "localized" in this fashion and this is obviously not how the name is properly pronounced. The only reason why his name is "localized" is official nationalist policy of the Latvian state and the real transliteration of the name Александр Старков is Alexander Starkov not Alexanders Starkovs. ( Fisenko 23:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC))
Smirnoff is not a localized Russian name. It is just an old way to transliterate Russian names into English, pronunciation is still the same. Obviously Alexander Starkov did not change his name, just like the rest of his soccer team players those names were changed into Aleksandrs Kolinko, Igors Stepanovs, Vitalijs Astafjevs, Maris Verpakovskis , Andrejs Rubins, Andrejs Prohorenkovs, Jurijs Andrejevs etc. See Latvia national football team. None of these names are ethnic Latvian, they are Ukrainian, Russian and Polish. They were only "localized" for Western media after the team started to make international headlines. ( Fisenko 23:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC))
Explaining my reverts here: this is article about Baltic Russians, not Russians in general; in Baltic States way less Russians were killed than Jews; also many Baltic Russians ran away to Russia before German invasion. Also, there were not many Russians (I mean, not as mucha s there are now of course) in Baltic States in general at that time, except for some eastern regions of Latvia and Estonia; cities were predominantly local and Jewish - there were way less Russians than Jews in general too. And nazis killed and forced to concentration camps many locals and people of other nationalities too. I guess it should be noted in article about Russians during WW2, but in a more neutral way DeirYassin 09:59, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
>>>>There were way less Russians than Jews in general too.<<<<
There was almost as many ethnic Russians living in Estonia and Latvia prior to 1939/41 as Jews, only in Lithuania Jews were clearly more numerous. Slavs in general were treated much more brutally than Balts (esp. Latvians and Estonians classified by Nazis as more "Aryan" than Lithuanians) during the occupation. Nazis closed down and robbed a number of Russian Orthodox churches and monasteries in the Baltic not only "treated harshly" Communist activists... Fisenko 18:48, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I just deleted some stuff from this talk page along the lines:. "Many Russians are bad" and "Many Balts are bad". These discussions won't help us improve the article. The point about the disrespect to local culture during colonization is made at this page and the only question is how to better express it in the article.
On another point. Stalinist policies of post-war mass repressions on balts were in line with similar policies of Stalin to other nations accused in collaboration with Nazis. Of course almost all of the millions of people who suffered had nothing to do with any crimes of Nazis against Slavs or Jews. However, it is true that many people in the territories recently occupied by SU understandably viewed the Nazi Germany as a liberator (not for long though). It was also true that crimes against civilians (not just Jews but especially Jews) were conducted with eager assistance of local collaborators, not only in Baltic territories but also in Ukraine (see, for instance, the highly POV article "the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia which still has some truth in it). The collaboration in the Holocaust was finally acknowledged publicly even by the today's Latvian leadership. The point I am trying to make is that the article should go into some detail on these issues, not just say that Balts were collectively punished by Stalinism for nothing. The truth was that millions where collectively punished for the crimes of the hundreds. The reader would know what Collective punishment is and will be able to judge that what was done to Balts was inhuman and unjust. This article subject is of course the Baltic Russians not the crimes of Nazi collaborators, but if the article called Baltic Russians needs to mention the Soviet repressions of Balts at all, it should give a complete picture. Irpen 19:39, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
Irpen, please restore what you have deleted. Such actions are inadmissible at talk pages. mikka (t) 20:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I reverted some of 3 Löwi unexplained deletions of info about medieval history of Russians in the Baltics. I have also returned Pyotr Wrangel to the list of Baltic Russians, even though he was of Baltic German origin he identified himself primarily as a Russian. I will look into the origin of Dovlatov, but as far as I know his family lived in pre-WW II Estonia and he was fluent in Estonian. Fisenko 02:18, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Regardless of your good intentions removal of entire sections of the article without previous detailed explanations and consensus is a serious violation of Wikipedia rules. Also some of your statments in newly created articles is highly questionable. For example: "any Early East Slavic settlements at the time in Estonia intermittent only and not continuous" , while many historians would argue what Slavs had a history of continuous settlements on the western shore of Lake Peipus for example. Fisenko 16:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
>>>>>>>Seriously, where on the western shore of Lake Peipus were there continuous Slavic settlements before, say, the 16th century? <<<<<<
I have already provided references regarding this information within the article. If you need more online sources , here you go:
http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/sugl/proj/recfin/heinsoo.html
http://www.moles.ee/05/Jun/17/15-1.php
If you need names of specific places, I can also give you some of them: Kaster (Koster), Vana Kastre (Stary Koster), Koosa jхggi (Kosovka), Kargaja (Kargovka), Rotzi (Rotsha). There is also a history of continuos Slavic settlements in Latgalia. Even if your changes would improve the article you have no right to make such drastic modification before you reached a consensus on the talk page. No offense but not everyone might agree with your "common sense" Fisenko 17:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Please don't try to insult my intelligence Mr. 3 Löwi, this is no place for personal attacks. The issue here is Wikipedia rules, not knowledge of 3Löwi vs Fesenko. The article about Votian tribes mentions what "It was in the middle of the 2nd millenium BC when Slavonic tribes started to settle in these regions." and "The people who had settled during the 12-13th centuries on the western shore of Lake Peipus were predominantly Slavs." , and this was just one example of numerous other references pointing to Slavic settlements on the western shore of Lake Peipus you can find online. Second article is more specific and is entitled "Russians of Peipus Lake region." I might mispell one or two names but it does not change the fact what numerous Estonian toponyms have Slavic origin. Many old Estonian words have also Slavic/Russian origin such as "turg" (torg), "rist" (krest), "raamat" (gramota) etc. once again pointing to Slavic presence and influence. Fisenko 18:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I must agree that
3 Löwi main idea that the expression "Baltic Russians" as a term has short history, and his splitting the article into four are reasonable. Some of his statements are dubious (e.g., "Vestern democracies countries did not reocgnize..."), but this not warrant the revert war. I would suggest
Fisenko to pursue his position within the new general article framework of the topic. In particular, a summary about the "second influx" is reasonable in this article, since it was rather significant. At the same time Peipus issue (with all your disagreements) sits well in the corresponding "Russians in Estonia" article.
mikka
(t)
18:50, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The statements are dubious in the sense that it is unclear how individual governments "did not recognize" this. E.g. AFAIK Finland and Estonian SSR had no troubles in communicating. The only solution would be to have articles
(do such articles exist? under other names? if yes, please redirect ) to say that they had official ambassadors, statements of recognition, whatever, with this and that state. I am well aware that this "unrecognition" was strong in 1940. But what was the history after 1945? mikka (t) 19:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Personally I see no reason why history of Russian and Slavic presence in Livonia should not be mentioned in this article. Especially since I provided academic references (which Mr. 3 Löwi for some reason deleted) to document every historic fact stated in the article. Fisenko 04:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me why the history of Baltic Germans can start with the middle ages and history of Baltic Russians can't ? I see recent deletions of info as nothing but violation of Wikipedia rules by Mr. 3 Löwi. Fisenko 19:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
"The oldest continuous settlement of Russians in the area, i.e., the Old Believers' villages, dates back to the 17th century (i.e., not quite the middle ages)" This is a questionable statement. I have already gave academic references (including once written by Estonian historians themselves) what say otherwise. Are you saying there was no Russian settlements in Livonia in lets say 15th or 16th century ? For example there is a Russian Orthodox saint and martyr Isidor of Yur'yev who was a priest in a Russian Orthodox church in Derpt . On January 8, 1472 he and 72 Russain Orthodox laymen from Derpt and neighbouring villages were drawn in the river Emajogi by German knights. [3] Fisenko 05:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I took the liberty to delete this stupid comment -- it had no connection with the topic and its main content was just random insults toward Latvians and Estonians. However, as a stylistic example, see its last sentence:
"A wonderfully brutal russian invasion and permanent and unsetimental occupation therafter seem to be the only cure for this sickening mass pathologies masquarading as peoples, barring that is a magical change of heart among the lot concerned which appears improbable."
Evidently the writer is one of the "Baltic Russian" Nazis who has even lower opinion of Latvians than Hitler had of Jews.
The "Baltic Russians" are not in any way a separate group of Russians. The article should be titled "Russians in the Baltic states" and the content should be changed accordingly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.159.164.35 ( talk) 10:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC).
Who should be included here? For example, was Yuri Lotman a "Baltic Russian"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.235.60.66 ( talk) 13:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC).
Eduard Toman, perhaps? Elsa Gretškina, the Soviet-era Minister of Education, is not only notable but also notorious. And, of course, from recent days, Dmitri Linter. Digwuren 11:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Lotman indeed had jewish roots but I think it is prematuraly to declare him 'a jew' taking into consideration that he didn't follow jewish style of life and was entirely absorbed by Russian culture.In fact Lotman contributed much exactly in the field of Russian literature.As to his surname,than we shoud also declare,for example, US president Dwight D. Eisenhower to be german because his ancestors emigrated from Germany.I remember the funny episode from the life of famous american grandmaster Fischer:some jewish encyclopedia recorded him as a jew in its lists of famous jews.In fact he is a warlike antisemite in spite of the fact that his mather had jewish roots and his biological father probably was jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.237.145.140 ( talk) 08:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Jatder wrote: Actual ethnic identity of "baltic Russians" is unclear. People, who are called "Russians" in this article are not only Russians ethnically; many can track their roots in today's Ukraine, Belarus, and other counties, that were parts of USSR during the mass migration time (1945 - 1991). But many of these not Russians (that are called Russians in Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania) speak russian at home and consider themselves as "Russians". Most of jewish poulation of the Baltic states (I mean Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania again) are also usually referred to as "Russian - speaking". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3 Löwi ( talk • contribs) 05:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC).
The citizenship section is incomplete and only usefull to a certain point because it does not say what the situation is right now. It says that the Baltic countries have "passed the test" (which sounds more like essay writing than encyclopedic writing, if you ask me) but does not say what percentage of ethnic Russians in each country still do not have citizenship or how exactly the requirements were changed in order to "pass the test".
The paragraph currently makes the argument that "because those countries joined the EU, it follows that there is no discrimination because if there was they wouldn't have been allowed to join". I don't think I'm alone in thinking that this isn't nearly enough. Esn 16:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's not enough. Nothing really changed in Latvia or Estonia since these coutries have joined EU. Both have a type of passport for 'second class citizens', called 'alien passport'; in Estonia it is white, in Latvia violet coloured. So, stright to the point: all these citezenship issues were raised up because of the very unstabe situation for nationalist - thinking politics in Latvia and Estonia in the beginning of nineties. Both countries had a referendum before exiting USSR, and on both referendums citizens (not depending on ethnic or national issues) of these two states voted for independence. But, a fight for power began inside of the new states, and it was decided, that if other ethnic groups would be able to vote, they would elect those politics, that nationalist - thinkers would not be happy to see. So, few years after the referendum (of independence) about a third of Estonia's population, and about a half of Latvia's population had their rights cut and a right to vote cancelled. These people voted for indepenence, and here's what they've got. The idea of 'naturalisation' has probably be an advice of Latvia's and Estonia's american 'friends', even the name of the process is the same, and the style of Latvian test (I don't know about Estonia, as it's difficult to find any info in other language, rather then estonian) is very much alike with the american (US) one (I compared it myself). In Latvia the law on naturalisation was launched on 22 july 1994 [4], after the new Saeima (Parliament) was elected in 1993 (with 'minorites' not participating in elections)....sorry, have to go, to be continued. j 14:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Russia want them to come back. (problems with demography) So they suport not to learning state langues, integration and gaining citizen rights.
Russians without citizenship are denied the right to elect local authorities and use their language in state institutions.For example,in Latgale, a region of Latvia,where there are few Latvians,the populace consists mainly from Latgalians and Russians,hundreds of thousand people should address themselves in latvian which is the language foreign for this territory.These list of such 'nianses' can be continued.
Well, most of incarcered in Baltic states are ethnic russians. And most of lower class jobs are done by ethnic russians. Something like algerians in France. There are some places, what could become a russian gettos.
Russians without citizenship are denied the right to elect local authorities and use their language in state institutions.For example,in Latgale, a region of Latvia,where there are few Latvians,the populace consists mainly from Latgalians and Russians,hundreds of thousand people should address themselves in latvian which is the language foreign for this territory.These list of such 'nianses' can be continued.
I'm changing the first sentence, the term is usually used to refer to the Russian-speaking community as a whole, not only ethnic russians. Even Armenians/Azerbaijanis fall under the category, let alone the fact that it's often impossible to distinguish one slavic ethnic group from another. Ban Ray 18:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The definition "Baltic Russians" has multiple problems. (1) Each Baltic country has its unique relationship with their Russian minority. (2) Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are located in Caucasus but there is no article "Caucasus Russians". It would make sense that each countries had a separate articles: Russians in Estonia, Russians in Latvia and Russians in Lithuania. Current "History of..." articles could be merged of these new articles. Consequently the article "Baltic Russians" could be a disambiguation page. Peltimikko ( talk) 07:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I have removed reference to Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva convention and tried to slightly change the wording in history section as its mentioning is very dubious and misleading in this case. This convention was adopted in 1949, but all three republics had become part of the USSR already in 1940 (by the way, without any state of war between the USSR and these republics) and by the time of adoption of this convention they had already been completely incorporated as constituent republics of the Soviet Union with their own CIVIL (not military!) administrations/governments. This convention cannot be applied retroactively in respect to events of 1940. Relocation of Russians to Baltic states corresponded to legislation of that period as there was a single Soviet State, of which all three republics were part. Their presence was necessary to restore the economy destroyed during the war and was economically motivated. Events of 1944-1945 cannot be called "military occupation" as one cannot "occupy" what is already his own (in this case - until 1918 and again since 1940). The opinion of United States and the Stimson doctrine were just their own subjective opinions, not the supreme truth, which they used for political purposes in their struggle with the USSR. Wikipedia must be neutral and not present the official viewpoints of just certain states (in this case - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) Dilas25 ( talk) 01:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Do you think it is OK to include Tatjana Ždanoka in the list of notable Baltic Russians? Counterargument - she is technically not an ethnic Russian, but a Russophone Jew. Pro-argument - she has continously associated herself with Latvian Russians and has been engaged in protection of Russians' citizenship and linguistic rights in Latvia. The term "Russian" in wider sense can be applied to someone who is not necessarily an ethnic Russian, but who nevertheless speaks Russian as a mother toungue and associates himself or herself with the Russian culture. Dilas25 ( talk) 02:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move. -- tariqabjotu 01:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Baltic Russians → Russians in the Baltic states – Title of this article should be changed to more accurate and less confusing name. Newbuddywiki ( talk) Relisted Hot Stop talk- contribs 15:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC) 11:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
1) There is no "Baltic Russian" identity. There are Estonian Russians, Russian-speaking Estonians, Russians in Latvia, Russian-speaking Latvians, etc. 2) There is 100x more academic literature on "Russian-speaking people in .... [Estonia;Latvia;Lithuania]", than there is about "Russians in the Baltic states" 3) "Baltic states" is a geopolitical term. It is not a political union. 4) The laws are different on these topics in all three countries.
It makes absolutely no sense to have this unified article for all three countries. There is no "Baltic Russian" identity and there is no common "Baltic states" identity either. These are three separate countries. Blomsterhagens ( talk) 14:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
“Communist party members who had arrived in the area with the initial annexation in 1940 and the puppet regimes established evacuated to other parts of the Soviet Union;” - is this trying to say WERE evacuated? Peter Flass ( talk) 17:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
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What is the reason for this revert? Also, your (Lowi's) statement that it is a partial revert is untrue. Moonshiner 20:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I still do not see any explanation by 3 Löwi. If I do not hear any valid reasons for the revert by the end of Monday, I'll restore my changes to the article. Moonshiner 04:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Russians who migrated to the Baltics were not "ideologically motivated" or anymore loyal to the Soviet Union than Latvians were. Most were simple people who migrated to the region because of economic benefits, for example they were given jobs and/or housing there. In many cases Russians filled the jobs (factory workers etc.) which the locals were less willing to do. ...[snip] it was the Soviet KGB (with both ethnic Latvians and ethnic Russian members) who were killing/deporting ethnic Latvians (as well as ethnic Russians) in the Baltics, not Russian immigrants who settled there. Fisenko 20:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
"Locals were less willing to do", however, is a myth. Mostly, locals didn't do these jobs for two simple reasons:
The original text made a declarative statement along the lines that "ethnic Russians were singled out," which (whether you believe it to be true or not) is not NPOV. You have to qualify a statement like that, and if there is a controversy, you have to provide both sides, which I hoped to do by adding some historical and present-day context, the position held by some of the governments, the concerns expressed by the CE/EU, and the opposing view. If you think some of this was mis-stated or lacked substance, or missed something out, fine, edit it, and add detail to it. But the point of Wikipedia is to provide balanced coverage of issues, not to advance one viewpoint and delete anything that disagrees with it. -- ProhibitOnions 00:06, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I would like to explain some of my edits and would ask to respond here before reverting them:
Please no flames. Let's just stick to the facts. I agree with hidden comments by ProhibitOnions and there is much more to add. Irpen 15:55, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Comments about "illegal Russian immigrants" crossing into Estonia and no Russians leaving are simply inaccurate. First, there was a significant number of ethnic Russians who left Estonia and immigrated to either Russian Fed. or Western Europe/North America in the 1990s. Second, virtually all Russians who cross Estonian border illegally are only using it as a temporary transit point on their way to Western Europe. In regards to “party functionaries”: the largest influx of Communist officials in Soviet history was not from Russia to the Baltics, but from Latvia to Russia after the Bolshevik regime there collapsed in 1918. See Jukums Vacietis, Yakov Peters, Latvian riflemen, Boris Karlovich Pugo etc.
Finally, what relevance does Baltic tribe of Old Prussians has to the discussed history of ethnic Russians/Slavs ? ( Fisenko 17:04, 24 May 2005 (UTC))
More information is good. Nobody "willed" or "not willed" to jobs (it was planned economy), there were qualifications or were weren't; many of worker Russians supposedly had qualifications which locals lacked so it was easier to send them instead of training locals (e.g. to work in certain specific factories or in power plants). While at the start of occupation in all Baltic States and even later in Latva and Estonia all "leading" jobs ha dto be taken by Russians. There ws indeed a settling of Russians in major cities; only reasons for that are disputable. Although there might have been planned rusification in some regions too such as Ida Viruma of Estonia. DeirYassin 17:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Most Russians in the Baltic were low to medium income factory workers, as well as sailors, soldiers etc. These are hardly "leading" jobs. ( Fisenko 18:09, 24 May 2005 (UTC))
I have met Russians who respect Lithuanian culture and Lithuanians who disrespect Russian culture. This kind of accusations are nothing more than biased generalizations, there is no place for it in an academic discussion and no need to provide "proof" or "documentation" to justify your prejudices. Aside from Finland there are many other examples of bilingual and multilingual states (Canada, Belgium, South Africa, Switzeland etc.) where various ethnic groups are able to preserve their national identities. ( Fisenko 08:44, 25 May 2005 (UTC))
I live in Latvia, I am latvian and I don`t speak in russian so maybe I am not fully informated of oppinions of russian part of society, still I think that your oppinions are stereotipical and you tend to view nations as one, not as consisting of many peoples. I was slithly interested about whole affair so I tried to get other people oppinions in internet (few forums), what I learned was that if latvian nationalists apears whole comunity will argue with them and that russians are bored of talking about it over and over again, well that was few years ago when I got those russian oppinions maybe they think diferrent now. What I learned from recent events was that some russians think that they know latvian language better then latvians and that they have brought culture to latvians and I think that is disrespect, I also think that it is disrespect and provoking to plan ilegal protests on national holydays, if there is posibility make legal protests in other days. I couldn`t find any poll nor about latvian, nor about non-latvian thoughts about each other, so I can only tell the diferrence by results of last elections where no latvian nationalists were elected, while russian nationalists was, but many latvians also could have voted for them, so that is bad measure for teling how many nationalists there are from each part of society. What I`m trying to say is that there aren`t many latvian nationalists and it does not seem that there are many russians since their protests are outnumbered and it looks like that those people making those protests just try to make latvians and russians hate each other
In case of a national name, in English WP an English variant of the name should be used if there is one, that is if there is a variant established by, say, English language media. This coach's name, due to the relative obscurity of the topic of Latvian Soccer in the world news, has not established in English media. So, the variant which should be used in WP should depend on the context of the usage. In the article about Latvian soccer it should be Aleksandrs Starkovs. In the article about Baltic Russians, the original Aleksandr Starkov should be used. Irpen 20:18, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
This argument can only convinced someone unfamiliar with the Russian names and Russians in Latvia. Nowhere else in the world are Russian names are "localized" in this fashion and this is obviously not how the name is properly pronounced. The only reason why his name is "localized" is official nationalist policy of the Latvian state and the real transliteration of the name Александр Старков is Alexander Starkov not Alexanders Starkovs. ( Fisenko 23:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC))
Smirnoff is not a localized Russian name. It is just an old way to transliterate Russian names into English, pronunciation is still the same. Obviously Alexander Starkov did not change his name, just like the rest of his soccer team players those names were changed into Aleksandrs Kolinko, Igors Stepanovs, Vitalijs Astafjevs, Maris Verpakovskis , Andrejs Rubins, Andrejs Prohorenkovs, Jurijs Andrejevs etc. See Latvia national football team. None of these names are ethnic Latvian, they are Ukrainian, Russian and Polish. They were only "localized" for Western media after the team started to make international headlines. ( Fisenko 23:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC))
Explaining my reverts here: this is article about Baltic Russians, not Russians in general; in Baltic States way less Russians were killed than Jews; also many Baltic Russians ran away to Russia before German invasion. Also, there were not many Russians (I mean, not as mucha s there are now of course) in Baltic States in general at that time, except for some eastern regions of Latvia and Estonia; cities were predominantly local and Jewish - there were way less Russians than Jews in general too. And nazis killed and forced to concentration camps many locals and people of other nationalities too. I guess it should be noted in article about Russians during WW2, but in a more neutral way DeirYassin 09:59, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
>>>>There were way less Russians than Jews in general too.<<<<
There was almost as many ethnic Russians living in Estonia and Latvia prior to 1939/41 as Jews, only in Lithuania Jews were clearly more numerous. Slavs in general were treated much more brutally than Balts (esp. Latvians and Estonians classified by Nazis as more "Aryan" than Lithuanians) during the occupation. Nazis closed down and robbed a number of Russian Orthodox churches and monasteries in the Baltic not only "treated harshly" Communist activists... Fisenko 18:48, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I just deleted some stuff from this talk page along the lines:. "Many Russians are bad" and "Many Balts are bad". These discussions won't help us improve the article. The point about the disrespect to local culture during colonization is made at this page and the only question is how to better express it in the article.
On another point. Stalinist policies of post-war mass repressions on balts were in line with similar policies of Stalin to other nations accused in collaboration with Nazis. Of course almost all of the millions of people who suffered had nothing to do with any crimes of Nazis against Slavs or Jews. However, it is true that many people in the territories recently occupied by SU understandably viewed the Nazi Germany as a liberator (not for long though). It was also true that crimes against civilians (not just Jews but especially Jews) were conducted with eager assistance of local collaborators, not only in Baltic territories but also in Ukraine (see, for instance, the highly POV article "the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia which still has some truth in it). The collaboration in the Holocaust was finally acknowledged publicly even by the today's Latvian leadership. The point I am trying to make is that the article should go into some detail on these issues, not just say that Balts were collectively punished by Stalinism for nothing. The truth was that millions where collectively punished for the crimes of the hundreds. The reader would know what Collective punishment is and will be able to judge that what was done to Balts was inhuman and unjust. This article subject is of course the Baltic Russians not the crimes of Nazi collaborators, but if the article called Baltic Russians needs to mention the Soviet repressions of Balts at all, it should give a complete picture. Irpen 19:39, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
Irpen, please restore what you have deleted. Such actions are inadmissible at talk pages. mikka (t) 20:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I reverted some of 3 Löwi unexplained deletions of info about medieval history of Russians in the Baltics. I have also returned Pyotr Wrangel to the list of Baltic Russians, even though he was of Baltic German origin he identified himself primarily as a Russian. I will look into the origin of Dovlatov, but as far as I know his family lived in pre-WW II Estonia and he was fluent in Estonian. Fisenko 02:18, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Regardless of your good intentions removal of entire sections of the article without previous detailed explanations and consensus is a serious violation of Wikipedia rules. Also some of your statments in newly created articles is highly questionable. For example: "any Early East Slavic settlements at the time in Estonia intermittent only and not continuous" , while many historians would argue what Slavs had a history of continuous settlements on the western shore of Lake Peipus for example. Fisenko 16:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
>>>>>>>Seriously, where on the western shore of Lake Peipus were there continuous Slavic settlements before, say, the 16th century? <<<<<<
I have already provided references regarding this information within the article. If you need more online sources , here you go:
http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/sugl/proj/recfin/heinsoo.html
http://www.moles.ee/05/Jun/17/15-1.php
If you need names of specific places, I can also give you some of them: Kaster (Koster), Vana Kastre (Stary Koster), Koosa jхggi (Kosovka), Kargaja (Kargovka), Rotzi (Rotsha). There is also a history of continuos Slavic settlements in Latgalia. Even if your changes would improve the article you have no right to make such drastic modification before you reached a consensus on the talk page. No offense but not everyone might agree with your "common sense" Fisenko 17:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Please don't try to insult my intelligence Mr. 3 Löwi, this is no place for personal attacks. The issue here is Wikipedia rules, not knowledge of 3Löwi vs Fesenko. The article about Votian tribes mentions what "It was in the middle of the 2nd millenium BC when Slavonic tribes started to settle in these regions." and "The people who had settled during the 12-13th centuries on the western shore of Lake Peipus were predominantly Slavs." , and this was just one example of numerous other references pointing to Slavic settlements on the western shore of Lake Peipus you can find online. Second article is more specific and is entitled "Russians of Peipus Lake region." I might mispell one or two names but it does not change the fact what numerous Estonian toponyms have Slavic origin. Many old Estonian words have also Slavic/Russian origin such as "turg" (torg), "rist" (krest), "raamat" (gramota) etc. once again pointing to Slavic presence and influence. Fisenko 18:44, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I must agree that
3 Löwi main idea that the expression "Baltic Russians" as a term has short history, and his splitting the article into four are reasonable. Some of his statements are dubious (e.g., "Vestern democracies countries did not reocgnize..."), but this not warrant the revert war. I would suggest
Fisenko to pursue his position within the new general article framework of the topic. In particular, a summary about the "second influx" is reasonable in this article, since it was rather significant. At the same time Peipus issue (with all your disagreements) sits well in the corresponding "Russians in Estonia" article.
mikka
(t)
18:50, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The statements are dubious in the sense that it is unclear how individual governments "did not recognize" this. E.g. AFAIK Finland and Estonian SSR had no troubles in communicating. The only solution would be to have articles
(do such articles exist? under other names? if yes, please redirect ) to say that they had official ambassadors, statements of recognition, whatever, with this and that state. I am well aware that this "unrecognition" was strong in 1940. But what was the history after 1945? mikka (t) 19:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Personally I see no reason why history of Russian and Slavic presence in Livonia should not be mentioned in this article. Especially since I provided academic references (which Mr. 3 Löwi for some reason deleted) to document every historic fact stated in the article. Fisenko 04:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me why the history of Baltic Germans can start with the middle ages and history of Baltic Russians can't ? I see recent deletions of info as nothing but violation of Wikipedia rules by Mr. 3 Löwi. Fisenko 19:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
"The oldest continuous settlement of Russians in the area, i.e., the Old Believers' villages, dates back to the 17th century (i.e., not quite the middle ages)" This is a questionable statement. I have already gave academic references (including once written by Estonian historians themselves) what say otherwise. Are you saying there was no Russian settlements in Livonia in lets say 15th or 16th century ? For example there is a Russian Orthodox saint and martyr Isidor of Yur'yev who was a priest in a Russian Orthodox church in Derpt . On January 8, 1472 he and 72 Russain Orthodox laymen from Derpt and neighbouring villages were drawn in the river Emajogi by German knights. [3] Fisenko 05:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I took the liberty to delete this stupid comment -- it had no connection with the topic and its main content was just random insults toward Latvians and Estonians. However, as a stylistic example, see its last sentence:
"A wonderfully brutal russian invasion and permanent and unsetimental occupation therafter seem to be the only cure for this sickening mass pathologies masquarading as peoples, barring that is a magical change of heart among the lot concerned which appears improbable."
Evidently the writer is one of the "Baltic Russian" Nazis who has even lower opinion of Latvians than Hitler had of Jews.
The "Baltic Russians" are not in any way a separate group of Russians. The article should be titled "Russians in the Baltic states" and the content should be changed accordingly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.159.164.35 ( talk) 10:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC).
Who should be included here? For example, was Yuri Lotman a "Baltic Russian"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.235.60.66 ( talk) 13:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC).
Eduard Toman, perhaps? Elsa Gretškina, the Soviet-era Minister of Education, is not only notable but also notorious. And, of course, from recent days, Dmitri Linter. Digwuren 11:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Lotman indeed had jewish roots but I think it is prematuraly to declare him 'a jew' taking into consideration that he didn't follow jewish style of life and was entirely absorbed by Russian culture.In fact Lotman contributed much exactly in the field of Russian literature.As to his surname,than we shoud also declare,for example, US president Dwight D. Eisenhower to be german because his ancestors emigrated from Germany.I remember the funny episode from the life of famous american grandmaster Fischer:some jewish encyclopedia recorded him as a jew in its lists of famous jews.In fact he is a warlike antisemite in spite of the fact that his mather had jewish roots and his biological father probably was jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.237.145.140 ( talk) 08:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Jatder wrote: Actual ethnic identity of "baltic Russians" is unclear. People, who are called "Russians" in this article are not only Russians ethnically; many can track their roots in today's Ukraine, Belarus, and other counties, that were parts of USSR during the mass migration time (1945 - 1991). But many of these not Russians (that are called Russians in Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania) speak russian at home and consider themselves as "Russians". Most of jewish poulation of the Baltic states (I mean Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania again) are also usually referred to as "Russian - speaking". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 3 Löwi ( talk • contribs) 05:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC).
The citizenship section is incomplete and only usefull to a certain point because it does not say what the situation is right now. It says that the Baltic countries have "passed the test" (which sounds more like essay writing than encyclopedic writing, if you ask me) but does not say what percentage of ethnic Russians in each country still do not have citizenship or how exactly the requirements were changed in order to "pass the test".
The paragraph currently makes the argument that "because those countries joined the EU, it follows that there is no discrimination because if there was they wouldn't have been allowed to join". I don't think I'm alone in thinking that this isn't nearly enough. Esn 16:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's not enough. Nothing really changed in Latvia or Estonia since these coutries have joined EU. Both have a type of passport for 'second class citizens', called 'alien passport'; in Estonia it is white, in Latvia violet coloured. So, stright to the point: all these citezenship issues were raised up because of the very unstabe situation for nationalist - thinking politics in Latvia and Estonia in the beginning of nineties. Both countries had a referendum before exiting USSR, and on both referendums citizens (not depending on ethnic or national issues) of these two states voted for independence. But, a fight for power began inside of the new states, and it was decided, that if other ethnic groups would be able to vote, they would elect those politics, that nationalist - thinkers would not be happy to see. So, few years after the referendum (of independence) about a third of Estonia's population, and about a half of Latvia's population had their rights cut and a right to vote cancelled. These people voted for indepenence, and here's what they've got. The idea of 'naturalisation' has probably be an advice of Latvia's and Estonia's american 'friends', even the name of the process is the same, and the style of Latvian test (I don't know about Estonia, as it's difficult to find any info in other language, rather then estonian) is very much alike with the american (US) one (I compared it myself). In Latvia the law on naturalisation was launched on 22 july 1994 [4], after the new Saeima (Parliament) was elected in 1993 (with 'minorites' not participating in elections)....sorry, have to go, to be continued. j 14:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Russia want them to come back. (problems with demography) So they suport not to learning state langues, integration and gaining citizen rights.
Russians without citizenship are denied the right to elect local authorities and use their language in state institutions.For example,in Latgale, a region of Latvia,where there are few Latvians,the populace consists mainly from Latgalians and Russians,hundreds of thousand people should address themselves in latvian which is the language foreign for this territory.These list of such 'nianses' can be continued.
Well, most of incarcered in Baltic states are ethnic russians. And most of lower class jobs are done by ethnic russians. Something like algerians in France. There are some places, what could become a russian gettos.
Russians without citizenship are denied the right to elect local authorities and use their language in state institutions.For example,in Latgale, a region of Latvia,where there are few Latvians,the populace consists mainly from Latgalians and Russians,hundreds of thousand people should address themselves in latvian which is the language foreign for this territory.These list of such 'nianses' can be continued.
I'm changing the first sentence, the term is usually used to refer to the Russian-speaking community as a whole, not only ethnic russians. Even Armenians/Azerbaijanis fall under the category, let alone the fact that it's often impossible to distinguish one slavic ethnic group from another. Ban Ray 18:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The definition "Baltic Russians" has multiple problems. (1) Each Baltic country has its unique relationship with their Russian minority. (2) Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are located in Caucasus but there is no article "Caucasus Russians". It would make sense that each countries had a separate articles: Russians in Estonia, Russians in Latvia and Russians in Lithuania. Current "History of..." articles could be merged of these new articles. Consequently the article "Baltic Russians" could be a disambiguation page. Peltimikko ( talk) 07:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I have removed reference to Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva convention and tried to slightly change the wording in history section as its mentioning is very dubious and misleading in this case. This convention was adopted in 1949, but all three republics had become part of the USSR already in 1940 (by the way, without any state of war between the USSR and these republics) and by the time of adoption of this convention they had already been completely incorporated as constituent republics of the Soviet Union with their own CIVIL (not military!) administrations/governments. This convention cannot be applied retroactively in respect to events of 1940. Relocation of Russians to Baltic states corresponded to legislation of that period as there was a single Soviet State, of which all three republics were part. Their presence was necessary to restore the economy destroyed during the war and was economically motivated. Events of 1944-1945 cannot be called "military occupation" as one cannot "occupy" what is already his own (in this case - until 1918 and again since 1940). The opinion of United States and the Stimson doctrine were just their own subjective opinions, not the supreme truth, which they used for political purposes in their struggle with the USSR. Wikipedia must be neutral and not present the official viewpoints of just certain states (in this case - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) Dilas25 ( talk) 01:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Do you think it is OK to include Tatjana Ždanoka in the list of notable Baltic Russians? Counterargument - she is technically not an ethnic Russian, but a Russophone Jew. Pro-argument - she has continously associated herself with Latvian Russians and has been engaged in protection of Russians' citizenship and linguistic rights in Latvia. The term "Russian" in wider sense can be applied to someone who is not necessarily an ethnic Russian, but who nevertheless speaks Russian as a mother toungue and associates himself or herself with the Russian culture. Dilas25 ( talk) 02:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move. -- tariqabjotu 01:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
Baltic Russians → Russians in the Baltic states – Title of this article should be changed to more accurate and less confusing name. Newbuddywiki ( talk) Relisted Hot Stop talk- contribs 15:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC) 11:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
1) There is no "Baltic Russian" identity. There are Estonian Russians, Russian-speaking Estonians, Russians in Latvia, Russian-speaking Latvians, etc. 2) There is 100x more academic literature on "Russian-speaking people in .... [Estonia;Latvia;Lithuania]", than there is about "Russians in the Baltic states" 3) "Baltic states" is a geopolitical term. It is not a political union. 4) The laws are different on these topics in all three countries.
It makes absolutely no sense to have this unified article for all three countries. There is no "Baltic Russian" identity and there is no common "Baltic states" identity either. These are three separate countries. Blomsterhagens ( talk) 14:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
“Communist party members who had arrived in the area with the initial annexation in 1940 and the puppet regimes established evacuated to other parts of the Soviet Union;” - is this trying to say WERE evacuated? Peter Flass ( talk) 17:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)