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Archive 1 |
This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because it is not duplicating anything. it's about Ukraine air strikes, not Kyiv city -- Joshko Vano ( talk) 10:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
83 missiles in 15 regions -- Mahadoc ( talk) 10:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
This article should not be speedy deleted, the page is under construction. Xx236 ( talk) 10:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because... (your reason here) -- 50.86.38.163 ( talk) 10:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC) After we memory hole this article how do we delete it from the wayback machine? https://web.archive.org/web/20221010100802//info/en/?search=10_October_2022_massive_missile_strikes_on_Ukraine 50.86.38.163 ( talk) 10:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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I would like to add the Israeli Prime minister's condemnation of the rocket attacks in the Reactions Foreign section. The condemnation is here https://twitter.com/yairlapid/status/1579504217072730113 Wakamoly ( talk) 16:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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The infobox image has a watermark so remove it. 213.233.110.47 ( talk) 09:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
This article appears somewhat over enthusiastic: a massive missile attack on the entire territory of Ukraine - it looks more like a few cities; critical infrastructure - well I'm sure the Russians would love to, but they look rather less well targetted than that William M. Connolley ( talk) 08:17, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Vladimir Putin is set to have a meeting with the Russian Security Council shortly, so it might help to use his statements as context for this massive strike. His statement on the consequences on attacking Russian territory might be relevant as well. 36.65.242.246 ( talk) 10:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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Redundant link in the introduction should be removed as it just re-directs back to this article;
As of the morning of October 10, explosions were reported in dozens of regional centers of Ukraine and in Kyiv.
"in Kyiv" originally linked to the October 2022 Kyiv missile strikes article before it was merged into this one. AverageLogic ( talk) 18:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Please add a map. -- ZomBear ( talk) 03:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The Crimean Bridge explosion, combined with the recent catastrophic failures of the Russian army on the battlefield, which led to the loss of a large part of the occupied territories, partial mobilization, the exchange of Putin's godparent for 200 Azovstal defenders and a number of other failures, undermined the confidence of the Russian leadership and led to a frenzy critics of the Kremlin in the middle of the country. Therefore, in order to compensate for the weakness of the Russian army and restore respect for the Ministry of Defense, the Kremlin replaced the head of the Ministry of Defense and conducted a campaign of atrocities against the civilian population of Ukraine. However, missile strikes directed by the Russian army against civilians, not military personnel, did not have a military strategy and did not help the front line in any way [1] [2] [3].
91.210.248.246 ( talk) 07:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The fact is, there are more missile strikes occurring today (11 October 2022). It might be best if the article also discussed these strikes as well. And the strikes also aim to destroy the energy infrastructure as well, which it has achieved to some degree. Perhaps the article will be more illuminating if it had that reasoning included. 36.65.242.246 ( talk) 08:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
In the section 2.2 heading Mleeds12 ( talk) 22:07, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page contains a translation of МаÑований ракетний обÑтріл України 10 Ğ¶Ğ¾Ğ²Ñ‚Ğ½Ñ 2022 from uk.wikipedia. |
Joshko Vano ( talk) 10:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
What is the problem with the lead? It does not look bad. Maybe it's time to remove it? Joshko Vano ( talk) 10:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
October 2022 Kyiv missile strikes can be perfectly integrated into this article. Why keep them separate?
Super
Ψ
Dro
16:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
"Russia used Kh-101, Kh-555, Kalibr and Iskander missiles, and the S-300 and Tornado missile systems."
S-300s weren't used. Why weren't they used? Because they are AA missiles that can't be used against ground targets. However, AFRF used Geran-2 loitering munitions during the attack Shhssh ( talk) 15:38, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
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I noticed a minor grammar issue in the German Embassy Damage subsection. Could someone change
Germany's consulate in Kyiv was also damaged by a Russian missile, although no officials were present, and the diplomatic building had been vacated for months
to
Germany's consulate in Kyiv was also damaged by a Russian missile, although no officials were present, since the diplomatic building had been vacated for months GreenSixSided ( talk) 14:27, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Most days since October 10 I've seen reports of number of drones or missles launched and numbers shot down. The current article cites numbers for October 10. I wonder if a section on this aspect, perhaps with a daily table, might be a useful addition. Mike Linksvayer ( talk) 18:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Shall we include the attacks on 17 and 18 October (Monday and Tuesday) in this article? Here are some sources - BBC and Deutsche Welle. Shuipzv3 ( talk) 08:27, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
I added a sentence to the lead for now, needs expanding. and agree with the above 17, 18 October. Perhaps a section needed 'continuation' - Putin made some comment about 'we are not destroying Ukraine' In between times. Today more of the same. I'll add some refs. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 16:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC) I made a new heading to deal with the situation in the last few days 'second wave'. Also added air defence donations/more under 'reaction'. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:09, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This article should be folded with the Ukraine War or Invasion main article... a missile strike is a very common occurrence in war. Rwat128 ( talk) 13:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
If you are editing English wiki, please make sure to have some competence in English. - AH ( talk) 20:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
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Move the USA's response to the attack into it's own subsection. It seems to have more content than two of the other subsections (UN and EU), and the USA is a major participant in the war by providing the most funding. RPI2026F1 ( talk) 17:29, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The missile strikes happened two days in a row, so I was thinking the dates should be 10–11 October. Unless if this is also an ongoing situation. StreamGamer ( talk) 09:52, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
It was just confirmed to be an ongoing situation. So is it a good idea for the page to be reedited? StreamGamer ( talk) 12:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
There's a warning about the lead - I think it's too detailed and lacks complete 'overview'. I may start trimming while checking duplication and sources. Comments welcome. Also I think this article is British English but there's no notice. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 19:59, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
@ Thelisteninghand: I made a revamp of the lead these past few days. Is it better ? There is a bit more on the way. Yug (talk) 🲠08:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
The lede contains:
President Vladimir Putin claimed them to be retaliation measures following the 8 October 2022 attack on the Crimean Bridge.
I recall reading an article stating that preparation for the missile strikes began before the strikes on the bridge. If so, clarification in the lede would be appropriate. If such claims have not been born out by evidence, then this might be worth mentioning as well (but not in the lede).
Has anyone else seen this?
CRGreathouse ( t | c) 15:50, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's an appropriate infobox. If you look at similar articles like the London Blitz or the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the 'military conflict infobox' is used instead so there's a bit of incongruency there. Reflecktor ( talk) 14:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
So only the bases were bombed, right. Right ? Yug (talk) 🲠08:36, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the addition about the missile that fell 31/10. There's "violation of Moldovan airspace' section above - think maybe merge and re-title? Also I don't know if this warrants 'third wave' it's only days after list in 'second wave'. Any opinions? Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:35, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Rivne was also hit in the first wave of strikes, so i suggest adding it to the "other regions" section.
(source: [1])
SnoopyBird ( talk) 16:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC) SnoopyBird ( talk) 16:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
References
The first set of strikes were said by Russia to be for the Crimean Bridge - that has been removed from the lead here by an editor. It's cited elsewhere, not disputed. On the same theme -the 4th/5th wave follow the liberation of Kherson and I am certain that has been associated in the press. Needs a mention imo. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:46, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
I added the European Parliament resolution under 'reaction' - now duplicated under 'sixth wave' - I prefer my entry with the bold heading - makes it listed in contents. And yes to comment below - too many waves - do you want to go ahead and merge? Thelisteninghand ( talk) 18:08, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
Category: Russian war crimes in Ukraine not added yet. Bodia1406 ( talk) 01:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
17 and 15 Nov should be together as 4th wave I think. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:29, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
The lead para mentions "waves of drone and missile strikes", but the caption of the photo in the infobox mentions "shelling". Do we add that to the phrase in the lead or should we seek a more specific photo of a drone/missile strike outcome? Yadsalohcin ( talk) 09:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to 2022 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure. Consensus arrived at 2022 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 22:06, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
October–November 2022 nationwide missile strikes on Ukraine → October–November 2022 Russian bombing campaign on Ukrainian infrastructure – This was a strategic, planned, mass bombing campaign of civilian and energy infrastructure with the objective of terrorizing the population of Ukraine and leaving Ukraine without power to break their resolve. They were not the usual aimless and irregular in time Russian attacks. The title should reflect that. Super Ψ Dro 14:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
In recent weeks, Russia has looked to target key Ukrainian energy infrastructure, following a series of battlefield setbacks.It does not call it "strategic bombing", so neither should we. Furthermore, "strategic bombing" is a bit misleading as these have been drone and missile strikes. Adoring nanny ( talk) 12:05, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
but if this goes into December then what?then we move it to "October–December 2022". Though this may indeed become some kind of general Russian strategy for the rest of the war, in that case we might remove the months, but we do not know whether this will happen so for now I think it's best to keep the months and change the title if there's need to. Super Ψ Dro 21:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
They would hardly fire missiles randomly into the sky and hope they hit something.that's precisely what they had been doing prior to this. russia had been randomly bombing Ukrainian cities and hoping it would kill as many people as possible for terrorising the Ukrainian population [6]. It's how we've gotten such a huge list of articles of russian war crimes, going from schools ( Bilohorivka school bombing) to malls ( Kremenchuk shopping mall attack) to random residential buildings ( Chasiv Yar missile strike, though there's far more examples) to literally no exact targets ( 3 March 2022 Chernihiv bombing). It indeed is a new thing in this war that russians have decided not to randomly throw things into Ukrainian cities to see what do they hit. Super Ψ Dro 18:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Yug: sadly I've just updated with today's strikes. We need to change the title as a matter of good sense. Cheers Thelisteninghand ( talk) 15:58, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
I just deleted a paragraph I could not understand. No citations. The rest of this section doesn't read that well. I think it should also include a brief summary about the earlier infrastructure targets. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:28, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I was going to add a Wikilink to the "See also" section, but I was prevented from doing so because this page is apparently blocked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation! 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 23:58, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
A new paragraph inserted with French citations. I just did a tidy up of English but 'warming system' was wikilinked to Warning system. Impossible to tell whether this was about the cold or missiles. I guessed. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 20:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
The section come across as biased:
"Contrary to the rule of war, most targets were civilian areas and critical energy"
The USA took out Iraq's energy infrastructure during the Gulf war and NATO targeted Serbia's in the 90's.
You take out a countries energy it clearly impacts it's ability to wage war and according to NATO members actions are legitimate military targets.
You can't claim your enemy is committing a war crime whilst also doing the exact same thing yourself lol 82.15.30.20 ( talk) 21:13, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
The Kyiv Independent calls it the “seventh large-scale attack targeting energy infrastructure in Ukraine,†saying “Russia has repeatedly attacked Ukraine's energy infrastructure since Oct. 10.†[7]
The Ukrainian defence ministry calls this the “ninth massive terrorist missile attack on Ukraine†[8] New York Times concurs: “ninth large-scale wave of missiles to be aimed at Ukrainian infrastructure this fall.†[9]
Why do we call it the eighth? — Michael Z. 16:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Here’s the start of a table of massive missile waves, based only on the article text. Worth checking whether numbers really refer to only missiles or missiles & drones combined. It should probably be filled out with more sourced data before inserting it in the article.
And should be noted that there were also attacks before and between these massive waves. — Michael Z. 20:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Wave | Date | Missiles | Missiles intercepted | Drones | Drones intercepted | Regions hit | Killed | Wounded |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | 10–12 Oct | 83+ | 43 | 17 | 14 | |||
2 | 21–22 Oct | 33 | 18 | |||||
3 | 31 Oct | |||||||
4 | 15 Nov | ~100/96 | 70/77 | 10 | 17+ | |||
5 | 17 Nov | |||||||
6 | 23 Nov | 70 | 51 | |||||
7 | 5 Dec | 70+ | 60 | |||||
8 | 10 Dec | 7 | ||||||
9 | 16 Dec | 76 | 60 | |||||
– | 19 Dec [1] | – | – | 35 | 20 | 3 | – | 3 |
 — Michael Z. 20:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The lead has room for improvement. The last section with citations seems too detailed. I checked the Russian version, and their lead is pretty clean, a good comparison point. Let's move this way a bit. Yug (talk) 🲠18:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
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1) [2]; [3] -- news articles referencing the attack, number of missiles and launch locations, as well as number of civilian casualties; 2) [4] - Kyiv Regional Military administration Telegram post detailing one of the rockets damaging a house in Darnyts'kyi district; 3) [5] - Mayor Klychko confirming at least 3 wounded civilians in the attack.
In early morning hours of December 29, Russia has launched a new wave of cruise missiles towards Ukrainian territories. 54 out of 69 missiles were intercepted, including 16 over Kyiv and 21 over Odesa. [6] [7] According to the Air Force Command of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, as well as the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, missiles used in the attack included the Kh-101, Kh-555 and Kalibr cruise missiles. [8]
At least 3 civilians, as well as a civilian house in Darnyts'kyi district, had been wounded in Kyiv. [9] [10]
-- akmLaVx ( t/ c) 12:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
I've been updating on the floating powerships Turkey is seeking to provide. There have been donations of generators and other general humanitarian aid - but help specifically in terms of providing energy assistance probably belongs in this article. I'll have a look for sources. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 17:40, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Qualitatively, Ukraine is adding dozens and likely hundreds large generators, as well as importing thousands smaller ones. It's described frequently by testimonies and anecdotes. It's replacing the traditional, centralized (for economy of scale) powerful power grid by a more resilient, decentralized one. For that conclusion i have no clear source yet. But it's what they do. Yug (talk) 🲠10:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
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Under the "Spillover" section for Belarus, change the following paragraph:
Following the December 29th 2022 wave of missile, one missile crashed in Belarusian territories. The missile is believed to be an Ukrainian sol-air missile which failed to intercept its Russian target and eventually crashed in Belarus. (Has no citation)
To
On December 29th, 2022, it was reported that a Ukrainian S-300 air defense missile was shot down by Belorussian authorities after it strayed into Belarus. Both side have acknowledged that this incident was an accident.
While referencing this source:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-air-defence-missile-lands-belarus-belta-2022-12-29/ Hypoxine ( talk) 06:50, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
I dont remember this article having ever been willfully vandalized and the topic is lowly maintained now. Past waves barely gathered 6 lines. Could we unprotect the page to let every interested party to contribute ? Yug (talk) 🲠19:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Any further contributions after today will need a title change yet again. Suggest "2022-23 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure". Thelisteninghand ( talk) 21:09, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Lemonaka ( talk) 16:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
2022 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure → 2022–2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure – It is now 2023 in Ukraine. Airstrikes still maintain. Lemonaka ( talk) 07:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Thelisteninghand, @ Hypoxine, @ Yug, request for move as your request. Lemonaka ( talk) 07:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
The line recently added states that all 80 drones were shot down while citing press that says the number is 39. Three people are reported killed in the line above so this is a very confusing statement for the reader. I've adjusted the 'shot down' number but this is now an incomplete statement. Please make your edits absolutely clear. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 16:18, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
There's two cites to the same Pravda news item. (111, 111) In general it's possible have too many citations on wikipedia and five might be over the limit for one sentence. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 16:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Please note when contributing that this article is written in British English. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 15:00, 14 January 2023 (UTC) Defence not defense, please. Cheers Thelisteninghand ( talk) 15:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Pranesh Ravikumar: Hi - you've deleted quite a lot of other editor's contributions here, perhaps an oversight? Can you please fix it and make the passage read a bit better - 'stated' is repeated too often. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 20:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Right now editing accordingly, in case if you find too much repeating words you could rewrite from your end. Pranesh Ravikumar ( talk) 03:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Which edit are you talking about? Pranesh Ravikumar ( talk) 02:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello all. If a word is Wikified - linked to its Wikipedia page - it only needs to happen once. There is a big tidy up to be done deleting [[..]] where it occurs repeatedly throughout the text. Please check before you, for example, write Kyiv, that it isn't already Wikified in earlier text. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 14:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Okay, @ Super Dromaeosaurus, you’re right my chosen title was not the best. [10] In response to your edit summary, the theatre and certainly a railway station are infrastructure too.
I have a problem with the current title, because the waves of strikes are not just against infrastructure but have targeted apartment buildings while people sleep and busy streets while people commute. The current title implies the objective is inanimate objects and not the morale of the civilian population.
Infrastructure is not a defining element of the subject of this article, and the title can be improved. What’s defining is:
Perhaps a suitable title might be one of:
 — Michael Z. 18:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
They are most definitely propaganda. You cannot just take them at face value. You write that 71 were fired and, according to Ukrainian authorities, 61 were shot down. That is simply impossible because the number of cities struck that day is already over 10! And they were reported to have been struck multiple times. These are the towns reported as struck: Kiev, Khmelnitsky, Burshtynksa Tes, Vinnytsia, Odessa, Krivoy Rog, Zaporozhiya, Dnepropetrovsk, Kramatorsk, Kharkiv, Kremenchuk and Mykolaiv. And as I said, these cities were struck multiple times. Could you at least write this? Andrea e luca ( talk) 15:47, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
That's simply a silly way to update things. This is no opinion, this is no form of conclusion nor an interpretation. This is a simple fact as "the sky is blue". Wouldnt adding this really be better for Wikipedia, which proposes itself as an unbiased encyclopedia that should help people have access to unbiased and factual human knowledge. Omitting such a fact is a damage and an insult to the reader, who will simply assume all of this as true. Andrea e luca ( talk) 06:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
I do not understand what you're trying to show me (as it is unaccessible to me, for it's behind a paywall) nor how it answers my argument. Andrea e luca ( talk) 22:21, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
The following sources indicate that the Quds Force should be added to "Perpetrators". https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/18/us/politics/iran-drones-russia-ukraine.html
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-october-12 Parham wiki ( talk) 16:22, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
There has been missile strikes today in Ukraine, any new information about this event happened today (April 28th, 2023) Source: [1] this is the source about this event. 2A02:2F0E:C708:E700:452C:FDEA:2095:96C1 ( talk) 14:50, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: not moved. No consensus on whether the title should have 2022-2023 or not. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 11:14, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
2022–2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure → Russian mass strikes against Ukrainian civilian and energy infrastructure – I believe this title more appropriately covers the scope of this article. The years are not necessary in the title as this kind of strategy from Russia against Ukraine has never taken place in history before. "mass" is necessary in my opinion to denote that this is a planned strategy and to distinguish it from the individual accidental (or rather careless but probably not deliberate like now) strikes on Ukrainian civilian infrastructure. It is also necessary to mention the civilians on the title as a big part of this strategy is believed to have been the demoralization of the Ukrainian people during the winter. Also because for example yesterday's missile attacks only hit civilian infrastructure. Russia's Ministry of Genocide acknowledged this blatantly. Super Ψ Dro 11:04, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello everyone,
While not explicitely said in our sources, the focus of Russian operations has shifted away from energy infrastructures to return to military and civilian (terror) strikes. How should we integrate and announce this shift ? Is listing several major strikes as unrelated to energy targets enough to "prove therefore mention" this Spring shift ? [Edit: we have one tiny section mentioning this shif in April]
Yug (talk) 🲠13:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
"campaign against the civilian energy grid which ended unsuccessfully with milder weather". It focuses on Russia's "energy terrorism", it's attempt to freeze Ukrainians into submission. The "Reactions" and "Remedial action" sections are about the attacks on the energy grid. Apartment blocks got hit in the process during some of these strikes, but we have another article which focuses on those. If we broaden this article to include every big missile strike on any targets, including military targets, then Russia's "energy terrorism" would get lost among all the other strikes.
Please add a note about the effect on water:
-- Nilsol2 ( talk) 09:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
Russia is doing another war crime - abductuion. Russia is taking away children from occupied russian territories and sending them to russia for "reeducation". Because of that, putin was declared an international criminal in Hague court. Please mention that war crime because its serious 109.43.112.70 ( talk) 09:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) - 🔥 ğ‘°ğ’ğ’ğ’–ğ’”ğ’Šğ’ğ’ ğ‘ğ’ğ’‚ğ’ğ’† (ğ’•ğ’‚ğ’ğ’Œ)🔥 13:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
2022–2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure → Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure (2022–present) – Most pages regarding the current events in Ukraine use this format. WikipedianRevolutionary ( talk) 12:28, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Sources are starting to consider a new wave of strikes. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/01/energy-war-ukraine-tries-to-protect-electricity-supply-before-winter Yug (talk) 🲠21:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 |
This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because it is not duplicating anything. it's about Ukraine air strikes, not Kyiv city -- Joshko Vano ( talk) 10:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
83 missiles in 15 regions -- Mahadoc ( talk) 10:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
This article should not be speedy deleted, the page is under construction. Xx236 ( talk) 10:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because... (your reason here) -- 50.86.38.163 ( talk) 10:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC) After we memory hole this article how do we delete it from the wayback machine? https://web.archive.org/web/20221010100802//info/en/?search=10_October_2022_massive_missile_strikes_on_Ukraine 50.86.38.163 ( talk) 10:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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I would like to add the Israeli Prime minister's condemnation of the rocket attacks in the Reactions Foreign section. The condemnation is here https://twitter.com/yairlapid/status/1579504217072730113 Wakamoly ( talk) 16:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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The infobox image has a watermark so remove it. 213.233.110.47 ( talk) 09:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
This article appears somewhat over enthusiastic: a massive missile attack on the entire territory of Ukraine - it looks more like a few cities; critical infrastructure - well I'm sure the Russians would love to, but they look rather less well targetted than that William M. Connolley ( talk) 08:17, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Vladimir Putin is set to have a meeting with the Russian Security Council shortly, so it might help to use his statements as context for this massive strike. His statement on the consequences on attacking Russian territory might be relevant as well. 36.65.242.246 ( talk) 10:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
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Redundant link in the introduction should be removed as it just re-directs back to this article;
As of the morning of October 10, explosions were reported in dozens of regional centers of Ukraine and in Kyiv.
"in Kyiv" originally linked to the October 2022 Kyiv missile strikes article before it was merged into this one. AverageLogic ( talk) 18:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
Please add a map. -- ZomBear ( talk) 03:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The Crimean Bridge explosion, combined with the recent catastrophic failures of the Russian army on the battlefield, which led to the loss of a large part of the occupied territories, partial mobilization, the exchange of Putin's godparent for 200 Azovstal defenders and a number of other failures, undermined the confidence of the Russian leadership and led to a frenzy critics of the Kremlin in the middle of the country. Therefore, in order to compensate for the weakness of the Russian army and restore respect for the Ministry of Defense, the Kremlin replaced the head of the Ministry of Defense and conducted a campaign of atrocities against the civilian population of Ukraine. However, missile strikes directed by the Russian army against civilians, not military personnel, did not have a military strategy and did not help the front line in any way [1] [2] [3].
91.210.248.246 ( talk) 07:34, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The fact is, there are more missile strikes occurring today (11 October 2022). It might be best if the article also discussed these strikes as well. And the strikes also aim to destroy the energy infrastructure as well, which it has achieved to some degree. Perhaps the article will be more illuminating if it had that reasoning included. 36.65.242.246 ( talk) 08:55, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
In the section 2.2 heading Mleeds12 ( talk) 22:07, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This page contains a translation of МаÑований ракетний обÑтріл України 10 Ğ¶Ğ¾Ğ²Ñ‚Ğ½Ñ 2022 from uk.wikipedia. |
Joshko Vano ( talk) 10:38, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
What is the problem with the lead? It does not look bad. Maybe it's time to remove it? Joshko Vano ( talk) 10:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
October 2022 Kyiv missile strikes can be perfectly integrated into this article. Why keep them separate?
Super
Ψ
Dro
16:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
"Russia used Kh-101, Kh-555, Kalibr and Iskander missiles, and the S-300 and Tornado missile systems."
S-300s weren't used. Why weren't they used? Because they are AA missiles that can't be used against ground targets. However, AFRF used Geran-2 loitering munitions during the attack Shhssh ( talk) 15:38, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
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I noticed a minor grammar issue in the German Embassy Damage subsection. Could someone change
Germany's consulate in Kyiv was also damaged by a Russian missile, although no officials were present, and the diplomatic building had been vacated for months
to
Germany's consulate in Kyiv was also damaged by a Russian missile, although no officials were present, since the diplomatic building had been vacated for months GreenSixSided ( talk) 14:27, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Most days since October 10 I've seen reports of number of drones or missles launched and numbers shot down. The current article cites numbers for October 10. I wonder if a section on this aspect, perhaps with a daily table, might be a useful addition. Mike Linksvayer ( talk) 18:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Shall we include the attacks on 17 and 18 October (Monday and Tuesday) in this article? Here are some sources - BBC and Deutsche Welle. Shuipzv3 ( talk) 08:27, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
I added a sentence to the lead for now, needs expanding. and agree with the above 17, 18 October. Perhaps a section needed 'continuation' - Putin made some comment about 'we are not destroying Ukraine' In between times. Today more of the same. I'll add some refs. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 16:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC) I made a new heading to deal with the situation in the last few days 'second wave'. Also added air defence donations/more under 'reaction'. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:09, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This article should be folded with the Ukraine War or Invasion main article... a missile strike is a very common occurrence in war. Rwat128 ( talk) 13:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
If you are editing English wiki, please make sure to have some competence in English. - AH ( talk) 20:03, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
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Move the USA's response to the attack into it's own subsection. It seems to have more content than two of the other subsections (UN and EU), and the USA is a major participant in the war by providing the most funding. RPI2026F1 ( talk) 17:29, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The missile strikes happened two days in a row, so I was thinking the dates should be 10–11 October. Unless if this is also an ongoing situation. StreamGamer ( talk) 09:52, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
It was just confirmed to be an ongoing situation. So is it a good idea for the page to be reedited? StreamGamer ( talk) 12:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
There's a warning about the lead - I think it's too detailed and lacks complete 'overview'. I may start trimming while checking duplication and sources. Comments welcome. Also I think this article is British English but there's no notice. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 19:59, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
@ Thelisteninghand: I made a revamp of the lead these past few days. Is it better ? There is a bit more on the way. Yug (talk) 🲠08:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
The lede contains:
President Vladimir Putin claimed them to be retaliation measures following the 8 October 2022 attack on the Crimean Bridge.
I recall reading an article stating that preparation for the missile strikes began before the strikes on the bridge. If so, clarification in the lede would be appropriate. If such claims have not been born out by evidence, then this might be worth mentioning as well (but not in the lede).
Has anyone else seen this?
CRGreathouse ( t | c) 15:50, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's an appropriate infobox. If you look at similar articles like the London Blitz or the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the 'military conflict infobox' is used instead so there's a bit of incongruency there. Reflecktor ( talk) 14:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
So only the bases were bombed, right. Right ? Yug (talk) 🲠08:36, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the addition about the missile that fell 31/10. There's "violation of Moldovan airspace' section above - think maybe merge and re-title? Also I don't know if this warrants 'third wave' it's only days after list in 'second wave'. Any opinions? Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:35, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Rivne was also hit in the first wave of strikes, so i suggest adding it to the "other regions" section.
(source: [1])
SnoopyBird ( talk) 16:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC) SnoopyBird ( talk) 16:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
References
The first set of strikes were said by Russia to be for the Crimean Bridge - that has been removed from the lead here by an editor. It's cited elsewhere, not disputed. On the same theme -the 4th/5th wave follow the liberation of Kherson and I am certain that has been associated in the press. Needs a mention imo. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:46, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
I added the European Parliament resolution under 'reaction' - now duplicated under 'sixth wave' - I prefer my entry with the bold heading - makes it listed in contents. And yes to comment below - too many waves - do you want to go ahead and merge? Thelisteninghand ( talk) 18:08, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
Category: Russian war crimes in Ukraine not added yet. Bodia1406 ( talk) 01:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
17 and 15 Nov should be together as 4th wave I think. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:29, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
The lead para mentions "waves of drone and missile strikes", but the caption of the photo in the infobox mentions "shelling". Do we add that to the phrase in the lead or should we seek a more specific photo of a drone/missile strike outcome? Yadsalohcin ( talk) 09:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to 2022 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure. Consensus arrived at 2022 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 22:06, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
October–November 2022 nationwide missile strikes on Ukraine → October–November 2022 Russian bombing campaign on Ukrainian infrastructure – This was a strategic, planned, mass bombing campaign of civilian and energy infrastructure with the objective of terrorizing the population of Ukraine and leaving Ukraine without power to break their resolve. They were not the usual aimless and irregular in time Russian attacks. The title should reflect that. Super Ψ Dro 14:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
In recent weeks, Russia has looked to target key Ukrainian energy infrastructure, following a series of battlefield setbacks.It does not call it "strategic bombing", so neither should we. Furthermore, "strategic bombing" is a bit misleading as these have been drone and missile strikes. Adoring nanny ( talk) 12:05, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
but if this goes into December then what?then we move it to "October–December 2022". Though this may indeed become some kind of general Russian strategy for the rest of the war, in that case we might remove the months, but we do not know whether this will happen so for now I think it's best to keep the months and change the title if there's need to. Super Ψ Dro 21:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
They would hardly fire missiles randomly into the sky and hope they hit something.that's precisely what they had been doing prior to this. russia had been randomly bombing Ukrainian cities and hoping it would kill as many people as possible for terrorising the Ukrainian population [6]. It's how we've gotten such a huge list of articles of russian war crimes, going from schools ( Bilohorivka school bombing) to malls ( Kremenchuk shopping mall attack) to random residential buildings ( Chasiv Yar missile strike, though there's far more examples) to literally no exact targets ( 3 March 2022 Chernihiv bombing). It indeed is a new thing in this war that russians have decided not to randomly throw things into Ukrainian cities to see what do they hit. Super Ψ Dro 18:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Yug: sadly I've just updated with today's strikes. We need to change the title as a matter of good sense. Cheers Thelisteninghand ( talk) 15:58, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
I just deleted a paragraph I could not understand. No citations. The rest of this section doesn't read that well. I think it should also include a brief summary about the earlier infrastructure targets. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 22:28, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
I was going to add a Wikilink to the "See also" section, but I was prevented from doing so because this page is apparently blocked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation! 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 23:58, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
A new paragraph inserted with French citations. I just did a tidy up of English but 'warming system' was wikilinked to Warning system. Impossible to tell whether this was about the cold or missiles. I guessed. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 20:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
The section come across as biased:
"Contrary to the rule of war, most targets were civilian areas and critical energy"
The USA took out Iraq's energy infrastructure during the Gulf war and NATO targeted Serbia's in the 90's.
You take out a countries energy it clearly impacts it's ability to wage war and according to NATO members actions are legitimate military targets.
You can't claim your enemy is committing a war crime whilst also doing the exact same thing yourself lol 82.15.30.20 ( talk) 21:13, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
The Kyiv Independent calls it the “seventh large-scale attack targeting energy infrastructure in Ukraine,†saying “Russia has repeatedly attacked Ukraine's energy infrastructure since Oct. 10.†[7]
The Ukrainian defence ministry calls this the “ninth massive terrorist missile attack on Ukraine†[8] New York Times concurs: “ninth large-scale wave of missiles to be aimed at Ukrainian infrastructure this fall.†[9]
Why do we call it the eighth? — Michael Z. 16:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Here’s the start of a table of massive missile waves, based only on the article text. Worth checking whether numbers really refer to only missiles or missiles & drones combined. It should probably be filled out with more sourced data before inserting it in the article.
And should be noted that there were also attacks before and between these massive waves. — Michael Z. 20:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Wave | Date | Missiles | Missiles intercepted | Drones | Drones intercepted | Regions hit | Killed | Wounded |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | 10–12 Oct | 83+ | 43 | 17 | 14 | |||
2 | 21–22 Oct | 33 | 18 | |||||
3 | 31 Oct | |||||||
4 | 15 Nov | ~100/96 | 70/77 | 10 | 17+ | |||
5 | 17 Nov | |||||||
6 | 23 Nov | 70 | 51 | |||||
7 | 5 Dec | 70+ | 60 | |||||
8 | 10 Dec | 7 | ||||||
9 | 16 Dec | 76 | 60 | |||||
– | 19 Dec [1] | – | – | 35 | 20 | 3 | – | 3 |
 — Michael Z. 20:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
The lead has room for improvement. The last section with citations seems too detailed. I checked the Russian version, and their lead is pretty clean, a good comparison point. Let's move this way a bit. Yug (talk) 🲠18:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
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1) [2]; [3] -- news articles referencing the attack, number of missiles and launch locations, as well as number of civilian casualties; 2) [4] - Kyiv Regional Military administration Telegram post detailing one of the rockets damaging a house in Darnyts'kyi district; 3) [5] - Mayor Klychko confirming at least 3 wounded civilians in the attack.
In early morning hours of December 29, Russia has launched a new wave of cruise missiles towards Ukrainian territories. 54 out of 69 missiles were intercepted, including 16 over Kyiv and 21 over Odesa. [6] [7] According to the Air Force Command of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, as well as the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, missiles used in the attack included the Kh-101, Kh-555 and Kalibr cruise missiles. [8]
At least 3 civilians, as well as a civilian house in Darnyts'kyi district, had been wounded in Kyiv. [9] [10]
-- akmLaVx ( t/ c) 12:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
I've been updating on the floating powerships Turkey is seeking to provide. There have been donations of generators and other general humanitarian aid - but help specifically in terms of providing energy assistance probably belongs in this article. I'll have a look for sources. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 17:40, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Qualitatively, Ukraine is adding dozens and likely hundreds large generators, as well as importing thousands smaller ones. It's described frequently by testimonies and anecdotes. It's replacing the traditional, centralized (for economy of scale) powerful power grid by a more resilient, decentralized one. For that conclusion i have no clear source yet. But it's what they do. Yug (talk) 🲠10:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
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Under the "Spillover" section for Belarus, change the following paragraph:
Following the December 29th 2022 wave of missile, one missile crashed in Belarusian territories. The missile is believed to be an Ukrainian sol-air missile which failed to intercept its Russian target and eventually crashed in Belarus. (Has no citation)
To
On December 29th, 2022, it was reported that a Ukrainian S-300 air defense missile was shot down by Belorussian authorities after it strayed into Belarus. Both side have acknowledged that this incident was an accident.
While referencing this source:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-air-defence-missile-lands-belarus-belta-2022-12-29/ Hypoxine ( talk) 06:50, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
I dont remember this article having ever been willfully vandalized and the topic is lowly maintained now. Past waves barely gathered 6 lines. Could we unprotect the page to let every interested party to contribute ? Yug (talk) 🲠19:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Any further contributions after today will need a title change yet again. Suggest "2022-23 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure". Thelisteninghand ( talk) 21:09, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Lemonaka ( talk) 16:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
2022 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure → 2022–2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure – It is now 2023 in Ukraine. Airstrikes still maintain. Lemonaka ( talk) 07:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Thelisteninghand, @ Hypoxine, @ Yug, request for move as your request. Lemonaka ( talk) 07:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
The line recently added states that all 80 drones were shot down while citing press that says the number is 39. Three people are reported killed in the line above so this is a very confusing statement for the reader. I've adjusted the 'shot down' number but this is now an incomplete statement. Please make your edits absolutely clear. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 16:18, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
There's two cites to the same Pravda news item. (111, 111) In general it's possible have too many citations on wikipedia and five might be over the limit for one sentence. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 16:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Please note when contributing that this article is written in British English. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 15:00, 14 January 2023 (UTC) Defence not defense, please. Cheers Thelisteninghand ( talk) 15:08, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
@ Pranesh Ravikumar: Hi - you've deleted quite a lot of other editor's contributions here, perhaps an oversight? Can you please fix it and make the passage read a bit better - 'stated' is repeated too often. Cheers. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 20:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Right now editing accordingly, in case if you find too much repeating words you could rewrite from your end. Pranesh Ravikumar ( talk) 03:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Which edit are you talking about? Pranesh Ravikumar ( talk) 02:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello all. If a word is Wikified - linked to its Wikipedia page - it only needs to happen once. There is a big tidy up to be done deleting [[..]] where it occurs repeatedly throughout the text. Please check before you, for example, write Kyiv, that it isn't already Wikified in earlier text. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 14:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Okay, @ Super Dromaeosaurus, you’re right my chosen title was not the best. [10] In response to your edit summary, the theatre and certainly a railway station are infrastructure too.
I have a problem with the current title, because the waves of strikes are not just against infrastructure but have targeted apartment buildings while people sleep and busy streets while people commute. The current title implies the objective is inanimate objects and not the morale of the civilian population.
Infrastructure is not a defining element of the subject of this article, and the title can be improved. What’s defining is:
Perhaps a suitable title might be one of:
 — Michael Z. 18:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
They are most definitely propaganda. You cannot just take them at face value. You write that 71 were fired and, according to Ukrainian authorities, 61 were shot down. That is simply impossible because the number of cities struck that day is already over 10! And they were reported to have been struck multiple times. These are the towns reported as struck: Kiev, Khmelnitsky, Burshtynksa Tes, Vinnytsia, Odessa, Krivoy Rog, Zaporozhiya, Dnepropetrovsk, Kramatorsk, Kharkiv, Kremenchuk and Mykolaiv. And as I said, these cities were struck multiple times. Could you at least write this? Andrea e luca ( talk) 15:47, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
That's simply a silly way to update things. This is no opinion, this is no form of conclusion nor an interpretation. This is a simple fact as "the sky is blue". Wouldnt adding this really be better for Wikipedia, which proposes itself as an unbiased encyclopedia that should help people have access to unbiased and factual human knowledge. Omitting such a fact is a damage and an insult to the reader, who will simply assume all of this as true. Andrea e luca ( talk) 06:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
I do not understand what you're trying to show me (as it is unaccessible to me, for it's behind a paywall) nor how it answers my argument. Andrea e luca ( talk) 22:21, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
The following sources indicate that the Quds Force should be added to "Perpetrators". https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/18/us/politics/iran-drones-russia-ukraine.html
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-october-12 Parham wiki ( talk) 16:22, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
There has been missile strikes today in Ukraine, any new information about this event happened today (April 28th, 2023) Source: [1] this is the source about this event. 2A02:2F0E:C708:E700:452C:FDEA:2095:96C1 ( talk) 14:50, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: not moved. No consensus on whether the title should have 2022-2023 or not. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 11:14, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
2022–2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure → Russian mass strikes against Ukrainian civilian and energy infrastructure – I believe this title more appropriately covers the scope of this article. The years are not necessary in the title as this kind of strategy from Russia against Ukraine has never taken place in history before. "mass" is necessary in my opinion to denote that this is a planned strategy and to distinguish it from the individual accidental (or rather careless but probably not deliberate like now) strikes on Ukrainian civilian infrastructure. It is also necessary to mention the civilians on the title as a big part of this strategy is believed to have been the demoralization of the Ukrainian people during the winter. Also because for example yesterday's missile attacks only hit civilian infrastructure. Russia's Ministry of Genocide acknowledged this blatantly. Super Ψ Dro 11:04, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello everyone,
While not explicitely said in our sources, the focus of Russian operations has shifted away from energy infrastructures to return to military and civilian (terror) strikes. How should we integrate and announce this shift ? Is listing several major strikes as unrelated to energy targets enough to "prove therefore mention" this Spring shift ? [Edit: we have one tiny section mentioning this shif in April]
Yug (talk) 🲠13:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
"campaign against the civilian energy grid which ended unsuccessfully with milder weather". It focuses on Russia's "energy terrorism", it's attempt to freeze Ukrainians into submission. The "Reactions" and "Remedial action" sections are about the attacks on the energy grid. Apartment blocks got hit in the process during some of these strikes, but we have another article which focuses on those. If we broaden this article to include every big missile strike on any targets, including military targets, then Russia's "energy terrorism" would get lost among all the other strikes.
Please add a note about the effect on water:
-- Nilsol2 ( talk) 09:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
Russia is doing another war crime - abductuion. Russia is taking away children from occupied russian territories and sending them to russia for "reeducation". Because of that, putin was declared an international criminal in Hague court. Please mention that war crime because its serious 109.43.112.70 ( talk) 09:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) - 🔥 ğ‘°ğ’ğ’ğ’–ğ’”ğ’Šğ’ğ’ ğ‘ğ’ğ’‚ğ’ğ’† (ğ’•ğ’‚ğ’ğ’Œ)🔥 13:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
2022–2023 Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure → Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure (2022–present) – Most pages regarding the current events in Ukraine use this format. WikipedianRevolutionary ( talk) 12:28, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Sources are starting to consider a new wave of strikes. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/01/energy-war-ukraine-tries-to-protect-electricity-supply-before-winter Yug (talk) 🲠21:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)