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On 21 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Russian apartment bombings to 1999 Russian apartment bombings. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Hey @Mellk, you reverted my edit because you say the CNN source does not mention that residents at first believed the sacks to be filled with cyclonite. This is the exact wording of the source: "A resident late Wednesday night noticed two men carrying what looked like sugar sacks into the basement of the 12-story apartment in Ryazan, 200 kilometers (125 miles) south of Moscow. He alerted police, who found three sugar sacks in the basement with a timer and detonators. The sacks were filled with small crystals that resembled cyclonite, the powerful sugar-like explosive which destroyed several apartment blocks across Russia over the last month, killing up to 300 people." I interpreted this as the resident and the local police at first identified the substance as cyclonite, which the source says looks similar to sugar, so it needs to be mentioned here or else the reference to "sugar" is just confusing. I think I see now though, I could edit the sentence before it instead, as a better and more neutral-sounding edit. LightProof1995 ( talk) 17:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September.So this just becomes repetitive. You also added quotes but these were misattributed. You added the quote
"sacks of suspected explosives"and
"small crystals that resembled cyclonite, the sugar-like explosive"but these is what CNN says, not quotes from the police. Mellk ( talk) 18:26, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Alsee, can you explain why you've removed Aimen Dean's testimony? Are there RS which say that his book is unreliable? I don't see how WP:FRINGE is applicable here. There is some compelling indirect evidence but not smoking gun and reasonable people have different opinions about these events. Alaexis ¿question? 19:50, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
“ | Aimen Dean, a Western spy within the al-Qaeda, reported on a phone call with Abu Said al-Kurdi—a logistics chief for Chechen jihadis- in which he said that the apartment bombings were perpetrated by the Islamic Emirate to revenge the atrocities committed by the Moscow OMON in the Caucasus. | ” |
I have brought this issue to Reliable Source Noticeboard. Alsee ( talk) 23:05, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
The information gleaned from the al-Kurdi call had at least raised questions about the bleakest appraisals of Russia’s new leader). Hopefully once it's not longer classified we'll get a confirmation or refutation from them. Alaexis ¿question? 14:47, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Content Removed. The RSN discussion brought 3 new editors to this conversation, and they unanimously supported removal. Atlantic306 "not reliable", TFD "The best approach is to avoid it", Aquillion "prefer to omit entirely". Along with myself that makes 4. To the extent the source is considered reliable it still presents problems for use, and it presents messy and contradictory information. At best it is a poor source and we shouldn't attempt to include long messy analysis of the source in the article. The British Government or other secondary sources can be considered if they have published, or ever do publish, about this. Alsee ( talk) 03:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Alaexis as I quoted above, four people say we should not be using this source. When someone identifies fixable problems AND they say it shouldn't be used at all, you cannot just ignore the part you don't like. I suggest you not WP:Editwar the losing end of 4 v 2. Alsee ( talk) 14:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
The perpetrators of this were the FSB and other Russian Government agencies. The infobox should say so. The second paragraph makes this clear:
A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September. On 23 September, Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the inhabitants of Ryazan and ordered the air bombing of Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War. Three FSB agents who had planted the devices at Ryazan were arrested by the local police. The next day, FSB director Nikolay Patrushev announced that the incident in Ryazan had been an anti-terror drill and the device found there contained only sugar.
This is contradicted only by Russian Government "investigations". But the Russian Government is not a remotely credible source. Adoring nanny ( talk) 04:00, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 17:34, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Russian apartment bombings → 1999 Russian apartment bombings – This article has a way too general title. Yesterday Russia bombed itself at Belgorod and while doing a Google search I ended up in a Second Chechen War article. That should say something. Super Ψ Dro 16:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Let's have a look at sources supporting Others disagree with such theories or argue that there is insufficient evidence to assign responsibility for the attacks in the lead. Because I see for example Ware, Robert Bruce (2005). "Revisiting Russia's Apartment Block Blasts". The Journal of Slavic Military Studies. and he is a philosopher. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 16:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
It makes it sound like there is evidence for the accusation but not direct, even though the official Russian investigation didn't name any Chechen perpetrators nor was there any evidence of this claim except simple accusations. This is precisely what the source says, and the quote is there. We are not going to rely on WP:OR. Mellk ( talk) 19:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately this article doesn't have many active editors/edits so if we would wait for article body to be changed we may never improve. In our situation, let's say it is possible to edit the lead directly.Agree regarding "were attributed". ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 14:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)The lead is just a summary of the page
— User:My very best wishes 14:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1999 Russian apartment bombings article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11Auto-archiving period: 180 days |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 21 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Russian apartment bombings to 1999 Russian apartment bombings. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Hey @Mellk, you reverted my edit because you say the CNN source does not mention that residents at first believed the sacks to be filled with cyclonite. This is the exact wording of the source: "A resident late Wednesday night noticed two men carrying what looked like sugar sacks into the basement of the 12-story apartment in Ryazan, 200 kilometers (125 miles) south of Moscow. He alerted police, who found three sugar sacks in the basement with a timer and detonators. The sacks were filled with small crystals that resembled cyclonite, the powerful sugar-like explosive which destroyed several apartment blocks across Russia over the last month, killing up to 300 people." I interpreted this as the resident and the local police at first identified the substance as cyclonite, which the source says looks similar to sugar, so it needs to be mentioned here or else the reference to "sugar" is just confusing. I think I see now though, I could edit the sentence before it instead, as a better and more neutral-sounding edit. LightProof1995 ( talk) 17:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September.So this just becomes repetitive. You also added quotes but these were misattributed. You added the quote
"sacks of suspected explosives"and
"small crystals that resembled cyclonite, the sugar-like explosive"but these is what CNN says, not quotes from the police. Mellk ( talk) 18:26, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Alsee, can you explain why you've removed Aimen Dean's testimony? Are there RS which say that his book is unreliable? I don't see how WP:FRINGE is applicable here. There is some compelling indirect evidence but not smoking gun and reasonable people have different opinions about these events. Alaexis ¿question? 19:50, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
“ | Aimen Dean, a Western spy within the al-Qaeda, reported on a phone call with Abu Said al-Kurdi—a logistics chief for Chechen jihadis- in which he said that the apartment bombings were perpetrated by the Islamic Emirate to revenge the atrocities committed by the Moscow OMON in the Caucasus. | ” |
I have brought this issue to Reliable Source Noticeboard. Alsee ( talk) 23:05, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
The information gleaned from the al-Kurdi call had at least raised questions about the bleakest appraisals of Russia’s new leader). Hopefully once it's not longer classified we'll get a confirmation or refutation from them. Alaexis ¿question? 14:47, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Content Removed. The RSN discussion brought 3 new editors to this conversation, and they unanimously supported removal. Atlantic306 "not reliable", TFD "The best approach is to avoid it", Aquillion "prefer to omit entirely". Along with myself that makes 4. To the extent the source is considered reliable it still presents problems for use, and it presents messy and contradictory information. At best it is a poor source and we shouldn't attempt to include long messy analysis of the source in the article. The British Government or other secondary sources can be considered if they have published, or ever do publish, about this. Alsee ( talk) 03:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Alaexis as I quoted above, four people say we should not be using this source. When someone identifies fixable problems AND they say it shouldn't be used at all, you cannot just ignore the part you don't like. I suggest you not WP:Editwar the losing end of 4 v 2. Alsee ( talk) 14:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
The perpetrators of this were the FSB and other Russian Government agencies. The infobox should say so. The second paragraph makes this clear:
A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September. On 23 September, Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the inhabitants of Ryazan and ordered the air bombing of Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War. Three FSB agents who had planted the devices at Ryazan were arrested by the local police. The next day, FSB director Nikolay Patrushev announced that the incident in Ryazan had been an anti-terror drill and the device found there contained only sugar.
This is contradicted only by Russian Government "investigations". But the Russian Government is not a remotely credible source. Adoring nanny ( talk) 04:00, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 17:34, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
Russian apartment bombings → 1999 Russian apartment bombings – This article has a way too general title. Yesterday Russia bombed itself at Belgorod and while doing a Google search I ended up in a Second Chechen War article. That should say something. Super Ψ Dro 16:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Let's have a look at sources supporting Others disagree with such theories or argue that there is insufficient evidence to assign responsibility for the attacks in the lead. Because I see for example Ware, Robert Bruce (2005). "Revisiting Russia's Apartment Block Blasts". The Journal of Slavic Military Studies. and he is a philosopher. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 16:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
It makes it sound like there is evidence for the accusation but not direct, even though the official Russian investigation didn't name any Chechen perpetrators nor was there any evidence of this claim except simple accusations. This is precisely what the source says, and the quote is there. We are not going to rely on WP:OR. Mellk ( talk) 19:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately this article doesn't have many active editors/edits so if we would wait for article body to be changed we may never improve. In our situation, let's say it is possible to edit the lead directly.Agree regarding "were attributed". ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 14:25, 29 March 2024 (UTC)The lead is just a summary of the page
— User:My very best wishes 14:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)