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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Image:MinnesotaFats.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 18:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
There seem to be 2 schools of thought about his true death date, 15th or 18th January.
Can anyone confirm the correct date, and explain why it's authoritative? -- JackofOz ( talk) 11:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I have moved this page based on the image of Fats' grave marker as seen here. Otto4711 ( talk) 15:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a mention of his daughter Etta James in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.208.189 ( talk) 19:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR ( talk) 01:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Rudolf Wanderone Jr. → Minnesota Fats — Aren't biographical articles supposed to be listed as the most commonly identifable name? I know the name Minnesota Fats, but I certainly didn't know Rudolf Wanderone, Jr. until just today. Note also that other people with pseudonyms are listed under their pseuds wherever applicable; compare Larry the Cable Guy (real name: Dan Whitney), Kid Rock (real name: Robert Ritchie]]), et cetera. — Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Broken clamshells• Otter chirps) 22:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.See closed-AFD tag at top of Talk:Minnesota Fats.
The guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it states clearly: "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. ... This does not mean that we should avoid using widely known pseudonyms like Mark Twain, Marilyn Monroe, Billy the Kid, or widely known common names of animals and other things. But it does mean that we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading...", which is clearly the case here.
The matter has been taken up at both Wikipedia:Articles for deletion (in which the nominator suggested that the fictional character article be merged into the article on the novel and/or the film, and Wanderone's moved to Minnesota Fats), and at Wikipedia:Requested moves (where the nominator wanted to undo the move, which would have necessitated relocating the character's article to a disambiguated title, like " Minnesota Fats (fictional character)"). Consensus in both cases rejected these notions (directly, with a consensus against merging of the fictional character into the main article on the work, and indirectly by consensus not changing with regard to Wanderone's article).
Generating more noise (i.e. continued circular discussion with no new information or rationale that might change the current consensus) about how important it is (to whomever) that Wanderone's article be at Minnesota Fats is likely to be perceived as disruptive, as will any further forum shopping. That said, a move to Rudolph Wanderone is probably in order, as the disambiguating "Jr." isn't necessary here. Also, the Minnesota Fats (pool player) redirect now works.
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
PS: IMDb also refers to him by his real name ( Rudolf Wanderone Jr at IMDb), not his performer name, which is uncommon for IMDb. This suggests that the confusion between the real person and the original fictional character is genuine, and worth taking note of and working around. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
PPS: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) also concurs, saying "we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading". — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
This page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
I was under the impression that Minnesota Fats was the inspiration for "Fats Brown" in A Game of Pool. They certainly bear strong physical resemblance. If we can source this as true it should presumably go in the article. Anyone have any info about this? JoshuaZ ( talk) 22:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I just overhauled the article significantly. The three main goals were to reduce redundancy, improve reading flow, and convert source citations to the "new" (heh) Cite.php style. The lead, proper, was followed by two short paragraphs, mostly of material of little significance to readers (who his first wife was, etc.), and repeated in more detail below. I've merged most of that into the main article body, keeping only the bit about where his nickname came from. The main "Minnesota Fats" section was rambling, full of too many extraneous details, and had weird insertions, that did not related to the material before or after, about his character. I've fixed this by increased sectioning. His media appearances are briefly mentioned in this section, in chron. order, as are his books, but the bulk of that material has moved to "Filmography" and "Bibliography" sections, while the personal character notes have moved to a section for that. And I converted all the references to proper <ref...>...</ref>
format, and fleshed all of them out with appropriate {{
Cite}}-family citation templates for source details (and added many missing details). Also added several more sources.
Further, I did a lot of general wording cleanup, gave his death date as that reported by the government (the most reliable source of the conflicting ones - the ones that say Jan. 18 are all journalistic or webby, and appear to have simply cannibalized the NYT obit, reproducing its error. Also added the alt. spelling of his name as the original one (headstones are arranged by families, and no one knows better how to spell a family name than the family to whom it pertains; I also know enough about German to know that "Wanderon" would be a much more likely original spelling than "Wanderone"; the -e was clearly added to impress upon English speaker that the "o" is the long sound of "alone" and "tone", not the short one of "con" or "on").
Also significantly I added info about his love of animals, and a quotation showing how extremely he expressed this. Plus another quotation illustrating his amusing use of language.
There's actually a lot more that could be added - just in skimming the sources already cited, there are all sorts of things worth mentioning - even in the tiny un-titled Timecolumn.
Anyway, I hope this overhaul will get the article closer to FA status. It's nice to see that it already passed GA. Nothing I've done with it will affect that status (if anything, it is more of a GA now than when it started).
There are two issues (an incomplete date flagged with {{ Clarifyme}}, and a ref note that the TV show mentioned may not have existed since it does not appear in IMDb at all) that need resolution.
My goal is pushing this at least one step closer to WP:FA. I think that is your goal as well, surely, so we ought to be able to work this out instead of bickering further. Ideas I surmise we can agree on:
Is this a good start? It's a lot of compromises on my part; in exchange I'd like to:
Yes, no, maybe?
PS: I am willing to go the RfC route, but that doesn't seem necessary if we can massage this into something we're both happy with. But, maybe an RfC would actually help. Up to you. I've done them before, so I can fire one up pretty quickly.
PPS: I am sorry I stepped on your toes; I'm just not used to toes actually being there. I think this is the most severe editing dispute I've been involved in over the last 2 years here. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Many of the compromise changes I proposed are now implemented. I've set up a Second peer review for further input on the shape of the article, so I'm marking this one "resolved".
Seeking a move of this to Rudolf Wanderone; per WP:NCP and WP:DAB there is no need to include the disambiguating "Jr.", as there is no other notable Rudolf Wanderone. Above (at very bottom of original RM thread), Otto4711 expressed skepticism about this, and may or may not repeat that in this section, so I note its existence now. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC) PS: See Wanderone's New York Times obituary, cited in the article, for evidence that he was referred to in the press without the "Jr." — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I've opened a second peer review on this article, for suggestions for Featured Article preparation, and to get more opinions on the old version and the filmography/bibliography version, vs. the integrated version, and on the length of the lead. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The article is being redrafted at Rudolf Wanderone/Redraft for copyediting and other issues, in response to the 2nd peer review. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
This page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Image:MinnesotaFats.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 18:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
There seem to be 2 schools of thought about his true death date, 15th or 18th January.
Can anyone confirm the correct date, and explain why it's authoritative? -- JackofOz ( talk) 11:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I have moved this page based on the image of Fats' grave marker as seen here. Otto4711 ( talk) 15:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a mention of his daughter Etta James in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.208.189 ( talk) 19:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR ( talk) 01:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Rudolf Wanderone Jr. → Minnesota Fats — Aren't biographical articles supposed to be listed as the most commonly identifable name? I know the name Minnesota Fats, but I certainly didn't know Rudolf Wanderone, Jr. until just today. Note also that other people with pseudonyms are listed under their pseuds wherever applicable; compare Larry the Cable Guy (real name: Dan Whitney), Kid Rock (real name: Robert Ritchie]]), et cetera. — Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Broken clamshells• Otter chirps) 22:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.See closed-AFD tag at top of Talk:Minnesota Fats.
The guideline Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it states clearly: "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. ... This does not mean that we should avoid using widely known pseudonyms like Mark Twain, Marilyn Monroe, Billy the Kid, or widely known common names of animals and other things. But it does mean that we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading...", which is clearly the case here.
The matter has been taken up at both Wikipedia:Articles for deletion (in which the nominator suggested that the fictional character article be merged into the article on the novel and/or the film, and Wanderone's moved to Minnesota Fats), and at Wikipedia:Requested moves (where the nominator wanted to undo the move, which would have necessitated relocating the character's article to a disambiguated title, like " Minnesota Fats (fictional character)"). Consensus in both cases rejected these notions (directly, with a consensus against merging of the fictional character into the main article on the work, and indirectly by consensus not changing with regard to Wanderone's article).
Generating more noise (i.e. continued circular discussion with no new information or rationale that might change the current consensus) about how important it is (to whomever) that Wanderone's article be at Minnesota Fats is likely to be perceived as disruptive, as will any further forum shopping. That said, a move to Rudolph Wanderone is probably in order, as the disambiguating "Jr." isn't necessary here. Also, the Minnesota Fats (pool player) redirect now works.
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
PS: IMDb also refers to him by his real name ( Rudolf Wanderone Jr at IMDb), not his performer name, which is uncommon for IMDb. This suggests that the confusion between the real person and the original fictional character is genuine, and worth taking note of and working around. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
PPS: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) also concurs, saying "we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading". — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
This page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
I was under the impression that Minnesota Fats was the inspiration for "Fats Brown" in A Game of Pool. They certainly bear strong physical resemblance. If we can source this as true it should presumably go in the article. Anyone have any info about this? JoshuaZ ( talk) 22:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I just overhauled the article significantly. The three main goals were to reduce redundancy, improve reading flow, and convert source citations to the "new" (heh) Cite.php style. The lead, proper, was followed by two short paragraphs, mostly of material of little significance to readers (who his first wife was, etc.), and repeated in more detail below. I've merged most of that into the main article body, keeping only the bit about where his nickname came from. The main "Minnesota Fats" section was rambling, full of too many extraneous details, and had weird insertions, that did not related to the material before or after, about his character. I've fixed this by increased sectioning. His media appearances are briefly mentioned in this section, in chron. order, as are his books, but the bulk of that material has moved to "Filmography" and "Bibliography" sections, while the personal character notes have moved to a section for that. And I converted all the references to proper <ref...>...</ref>
format, and fleshed all of them out with appropriate {{
Cite}}-family citation templates for source details (and added many missing details). Also added several more sources.
Further, I did a lot of general wording cleanup, gave his death date as that reported by the government (the most reliable source of the conflicting ones - the ones that say Jan. 18 are all journalistic or webby, and appear to have simply cannibalized the NYT obit, reproducing its error. Also added the alt. spelling of his name as the original one (headstones are arranged by families, and no one knows better how to spell a family name than the family to whom it pertains; I also know enough about German to know that "Wanderon" would be a much more likely original spelling than "Wanderone"; the -e was clearly added to impress upon English speaker that the "o" is the long sound of "alone" and "tone", not the short one of "con" or "on").
Also significantly I added info about his love of animals, and a quotation showing how extremely he expressed this. Plus another quotation illustrating his amusing use of language.
There's actually a lot more that could be added - just in skimming the sources already cited, there are all sorts of things worth mentioning - even in the tiny un-titled Timecolumn.
Anyway, I hope this overhaul will get the article closer to FA status. It's nice to see that it already passed GA. Nothing I've done with it will affect that status (if anything, it is more of a GA now than when it started).
There are two issues (an incomplete date flagged with {{ Clarifyme}}, and a ref note that the TV show mentioned may not have existed since it does not appear in IMDb at all) that need resolution.
My goal is pushing this at least one step closer to WP:FA. I think that is your goal as well, surely, so we ought to be able to work this out instead of bickering further. Ideas I surmise we can agree on:
Is this a good start? It's a lot of compromises on my part; in exchange I'd like to:
Yes, no, maybe?
PS: I am willing to go the RfC route, but that doesn't seem necessary if we can massage this into something we're both happy with. But, maybe an RfC would actually help. Up to you. I've done them before, so I can fire one up pretty quickly.
PPS: I am sorry I stepped on your toes; I'm just not used to toes actually being there. I think this is the most severe editing dispute I've been involved in over the last 2 years here. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Many of the compromise changes I proposed are now implemented. I've set up a Second peer review for further input on the shape of the article, so I'm marking this one "resolved".
Seeking a move of this to Rudolf Wanderone; per WP:NCP and WP:DAB there is no need to include the disambiguating "Jr.", as there is no other notable Rudolf Wanderone. Above (at very bottom of original RM thread), Otto4711 expressed skepticism about this, and may or may not repeat that in this section, so I note its existence now. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC) PS: See Wanderone's New York Times obituary, cited in the article, for evidence that he was referred to in the press without the "Jr." — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I've opened a second peer review on this article, for suggestions for Featured Article preparation, and to get more opinions on the old version and the filmography/bibliography version, vs. the integrated version, and on the length of the lead. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The article is being redrafted at Rudolf Wanderone/Redraft for copyediting and other issues, in response to the 2nd peer review. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)