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Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that
File:Roulettes flying in formation.jpg will be appearing as
picture of the day on September 15, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at
Template:POTD/2010-09-15. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the
Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {
chat} 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)reply
See
http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Transcripts/s1095478.htm for a little of the broader history. The accident which took the lives of the
Red Sails is particularly noteworthy, and should be documented somewhere in Wikipedia (despite the understandable reluctance of the RAAF to talk about it).
Andrewa (
talk) 20:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)reply
Requested move 28 June 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a reasonable argument that the current setup
WP:AINT broken. In any case, there is no consensus for the proposed move, or any alternative setup.
No such user (
talk) 09:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)reply
DisambiguateRoulette doesn't appear to be a countable noun (most Google results aren't for it) and "Roulettes" doesn't appear once in that article however there is
Roulette (curve) (which is a countable noun) which gets 947 views and
The Roulettes that gets 401 views compared to 346 for this article[
[1]]. Probably redirect to
Roulette (disambiguation) but a plural DAB page could be created. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 16:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
There's no reason to believe large numbers of readers are searching for those articles or expect to find them under "Roulettes". But I agree they are worthy of a hatnote and/or dab page listing for the benefit of the minority.
Station1 (
talk) 21:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I agree the other uses individually are less likely to be searched for than this under this term but I'm not convinced that this meets the criteria of
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it might meet the 1st but its highly unlikely to meet the 2nd. In this case we should probably disambiguate which would mean that no hatnotes are needed and every article is 1 click away for every reader per
WP:NOPRIMARY. Note that the unqualified title for the category
Category:Roulettes (which should also probably be disambiguated) is indeed for
Roulette (curve)Crouch, Swale (
talk) 21:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
If every article were 1 click away for every reader, it would mean the majority of readers would be 1 click further away than they are now, while those looking for
The Roulettes would be no better off.
Station1 (
talk) 21:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
But there isn't a primary topic (
WP:NOPRIMARY) and there are more than just 2 articles anyway. I would note that Google results are mixed between the aerobatics and the band. Additionally the casino meaning shows up in ads at the bottom. Images mainly returns wheels (which doesn't appear to relate to an article here) and Books appears to be split between the casino and curve meanings. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 20:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)reply
This has nothing to do with primary topics. There's no primary topic between
pears and
bananas but that's irrelevant because they are different topics with different article titles.
Roulettes,
The Roulettes,
roulette and
roulette (curve) are all unrelated topics with different titles that can happily co-exist as they are. For the few people who might possibly be confused, hatnotes are sufficient. There's simply no problem here that requires any kind of solution.
Station1 (
talk) 06:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Pears and bananas are 2 completely different topics with completely different names, "Roulettes" is a
homograph in that it can refer to at least to different topics and judging by the page views, Google and long-term significance there's no clear primary topic for this term.
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT says that a topic can be primary for more than 1 title and
WP:NOPRIMARY says that even if there are just 2 ambiguous topic and none is primary that the reader should be taken to the DAB page. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 17:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Just like pears and bananas,
Roulettes,
The Roulettes, and
roulette, are different topics with different names; just not as obviously different. The only time primary topic comes into play is between
roulette and
roulette (curve), because those are different topics that have identical names; we must choose a primary topic between those two, but we are not required to choose a primary topic among non-identical titles, and I see no compelling reason to do so in this case.
Station1 (
talk) 18:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
They're different topics but the names overlap, in the same way for example
Gasoline and
Petrol are different names for the same thing, "roulettes" can be the name for the band and the curve and possibly the casino term. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 19:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
I've already cited policy and explained how this move would be a net detriment to WP, however slight. Perhaps you could explain why you believe it would be a net benefit.
Station1 (
talk) 07:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)reply
As far as I can see the only policy that you have cited is PRECISE which tells us that usually "unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that" the current title likely doesn't since there are other topics that need the title to (per (PRIMARYREDIRECT) similar to the fact that there are several articles titled "Libel" (such as the
film) but "the article at Defamation is still the primary topic for that title and the film must be disambiguated". In this case the other topics listed on the DAB page likely prevent this one from being primary but there probably isn't a primary topic. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 07:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Just for the record, I support the policies at
WP:AT and
WP:NPA. -
Station1 (
talk) 19:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment This is a strange page
requested move because, on the one hand, I do agree with BrownHairedGirl that
Roulette is clearly the
primary topic, but I also can't think of the casino game being a countable noun as Crouch, Swale's analysis ellucidates. We also have
The Roulettes, a '60s era British rock band, which gets roughly equal views to
Roulettes, the Royal Australian Air Force aerial acrobatic squadron. Looking at the Roulettes' (the RAAF squadron) website, they appear to be known commonly as The Roulettes not simply Roulettes. So, I do think this page is mistitled. I'm not certain whether to disambiguate as a separate plural disambiguation page or redirect to
Roulette (disambiguation), but do think there's no real clear primary topic for
The Roulettes either. Perhaps we should move
Roulettes to
The Roulettes (aerobatics), similar to BrownHairedGirl's suggestion, and then move
The Roulettes to
The Roulettes (band). We could then decide how to handle
The Roulettes and
Roulettes in terms of disambiguation?
Dmehus (
talk) 14:40, 3 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Reliable sources call the teams "Air Force Roulettes" or "RAAF Roulettes". When "the Roulettes" appears in running text, "the" is not capitalized, and when used in headlines and captions, just "Roulettes" is used.
[2][3][4] So "The Roulettes" does not appear to be an appropriate title for this article, per
WP:THE.
Station1 (
talk) 19:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)reply
WP:PLURALPT gives examples of
Times,
Papers and
Oranges where in the 1st and 2nd case they redirect to
Time (disambiguation) and
Paper (disambiguation) and in the 3rd the plural redirects to the fruit because the colour is normally uncountable. Given as noted there are several uses and none appears to be primary I'd go with no primary even though it could redirect to
Roulette (curve) per the Oranges example. In addition to potentially reviewing the title of the band maybe we could move this to
Air Force Roulettes as noted per above per
WP:NATURAL?
WP:DABCOMBINE seems to suggest if there is an overlap between the terms (meaning the terms are often used interchangeably) then a singular DAB makes sense which I think is the case here and if the band is moved then "The Roulettes" should also redirect to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 20:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)reply
The Roulettes are a group that stopped performing over 60 years ago and weren't famous even then. The display team is an active national institution which still performs over a hundred times each year. That's no contest. The plural of the curve has a better case but anyone searching for that is probably going to use the keyword word "curve" too, to avoid the gambling game. My !vote stands – it's simplest and best to do nothing.
Andrew🐉(
talk) 09:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Given the split in page views and long-term significance (of the curve) I'd still suggest disambiguation is best. Someone might use the plural to avoid the gambling name like
Orange/
Oranges. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 16:47, 8 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose Anyone searching with roulettes is likely seeking this article. Even if they're looking for
The Roulettes, the hatnote link here taking them to their sought article in one more click means they would be no better off landing on a dab page, and those seeking this page are much better off landing directly on the page they seek rather than on a godforsaken dab page. And, as others have noted, redirecting
Roulettes to the non-countable
Roulette makes no sense whatsoever. Nobody benefits from this proposed move. Nobody. --
В²C☎ 17:06, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
There probably most likely but
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC requires more than that. I agree retargeting to the uncountable
Roulette makes no sense and would help (almost) no one but its most helpful to take readers to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 21:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)reply
ATTENTION we have seen some poor non-admin closes in the last couple of weeks, one of which
murder in Texas is at move review right now. Would encourage non-admins to think carefully before making a close on this RM that does not take into account the "roulettes are" test in GBooks.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 20:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)reply
You made out point already, must you spam this page? Calidum 08:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)reply
I think that there's consensus that this term shouldn't redirect to
Roulette but its less clear about my alternative suggestion of disambiguating instead. That probably requires further consideration, maybe a new RM should be started at some point to do that rather than redirecting to the game which I agree doesn't make much sense. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 08:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose "Roulettes" is certainly sometimes used as a plural for a game, but it is not usually seen as a countable noun. Therefore in this case the current title is most helpful for the readers and the logic behind
WP:PLURALPT can apply.--
Yaksar(let's chat) 06:39, 17 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. As others I have said, this is a case where a reader searching for the plural form will undoubtedly be seeking this topic. Calidum 08:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Maybe this should be relisted (or a new RM stared) with a proposal to have "Roulettes" pointing to the DAB rather than redirecting to
Roulette. I think most people have disagreed with redirecting to
Roulette but as I have shown its unlikely that the aerobatics meaning is likely not the primary topic. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 08:35, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
I think people have made pretty clear that the opposition is to moving the subject page from the primary topic, not that they would instead want the base name to redirect to the DAB.--
Yaksar(let's chat) 13:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Not really, you're comment suggests it shouldn't redirect to the game because indeed that topic isn't usually countable. What you don't appear to have taken into account is topics like the curve and the band which do use the term "Roulettes". The logic is similar to the
Paper/
Papers and
Orange/
Oranges examples at PLURALPT in that the
curveis a contender for the plural form. That's why there should be no primary topic for this term. Also the "strong support" !vote isn't clear about if the game should be primary of if only this topic isn't primary. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 16:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Totally fair, but I believe mine may be the only oppose !vote expressing that ambiguity (and if it clears that up, I think the plural with a hatnote provides suitable disambiguation there).--
Yaksar(let's chat) 16:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Roulettes is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that
File:Roulettes flying in formation.jpg will be appearing as
picture of the day on September 15, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at
Template:POTD/2010-09-15. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the
Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {
chat} 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)reply
See
http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Transcripts/s1095478.htm for a little of the broader history. The accident which took the lives of the
Red Sails is particularly noteworthy, and should be documented somewhere in Wikipedia (despite the understandable reluctance of the RAAF to talk about it).
Andrewa (
talk) 20:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)reply
Requested move 28 June 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a reasonable argument that the current setup
WP:AINT broken. In any case, there is no consensus for the proposed move, or any alternative setup.
No such user (
talk) 09:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)reply
DisambiguateRoulette doesn't appear to be a countable noun (most Google results aren't for it) and "Roulettes" doesn't appear once in that article however there is
Roulette (curve) (which is a countable noun) which gets 947 views and
The Roulettes that gets 401 views compared to 346 for this article[
[1]]. Probably redirect to
Roulette (disambiguation) but a plural DAB page could be created. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 16:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
There's no reason to believe large numbers of readers are searching for those articles or expect to find them under "Roulettes". But I agree they are worthy of a hatnote and/or dab page listing for the benefit of the minority.
Station1 (
talk) 21:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
I agree the other uses individually are less likely to be searched for than this under this term but I'm not convinced that this meets the criteria of
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it might meet the 1st but its highly unlikely to meet the 2nd. In this case we should probably disambiguate which would mean that no hatnotes are needed and every article is 1 click away for every reader per
WP:NOPRIMARY. Note that the unqualified title for the category
Category:Roulettes (which should also probably be disambiguated) is indeed for
Roulette (curve)Crouch, Swale (
talk) 21:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
If every article were 1 click away for every reader, it would mean the majority of readers would be 1 click further away than they are now, while those looking for
The Roulettes would be no better off.
Station1 (
talk) 21:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)reply
But there isn't a primary topic (
WP:NOPRIMARY) and there are more than just 2 articles anyway. I would note that Google results are mixed between the aerobatics and the band. Additionally the casino meaning shows up in ads at the bottom. Images mainly returns wheels (which doesn't appear to relate to an article here) and Books appears to be split between the casino and curve meanings. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 20:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)reply
This has nothing to do with primary topics. There's no primary topic between
pears and
bananas but that's irrelevant because they are different topics with different article titles.
Roulettes,
The Roulettes,
roulette and
roulette (curve) are all unrelated topics with different titles that can happily co-exist as they are. For the few people who might possibly be confused, hatnotes are sufficient. There's simply no problem here that requires any kind of solution.
Station1 (
talk) 06:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Pears and bananas are 2 completely different topics with completely different names, "Roulettes" is a
homograph in that it can refer to at least to different topics and judging by the page views, Google and long-term significance there's no clear primary topic for this term.
WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT says that a topic can be primary for more than 1 title and
WP:NOPRIMARY says that even if there are just 2 ambiguous topic and none is primary that the reader should be taken to the DAB page. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 17:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Just like pears and bananas,
Roulettes,
The Roulettes, and
roulette, are different topics with different names; just not as obviously different. The only time primary topic comes into play is between
roulette and
roulette (curve), because those are different topics that have identical names; we must choose a primary topic between those two, but we are not required to choose a primary topic among non-identical titles, and I see no compelling reason to do so in this case.
Station1 (
talk) 18:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
They're different topics but the names overlap, in the same way for example
Gasoline and
Petrol are different names for the same thing, "roulettes" can be the name for the band and the curve and possibly the casino term. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 19:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)reply
I've already cited policy and explained how this move would be a net detriment to WP, however slight. Perhaps you could explain why you believe it would be a net benefit.
Station1 (
talk) 07:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)reply
As far as I can see the only policy that you have cited is PRECISE which tells us that usually "unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that" the current title likely doesn't since there are other topics that need the title to (per (PRIMARYREDIRECT) similar to the fact that there are several articles titled "Libel" (such as the
film) but "the article at Defamation is still the primary topic for that title and the film must be disambiguated". In this case the other topics listed on the DAB page likely prevent this one from being primary but there probably isn't a primary topic. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 07:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Just for the record, I support the policies at
WP:AT and
WP:NPA. -
Station1 (
talk) 19:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment This is a strange page
requested move because, on the one hand, I do agree with BrownHairedGirl that
Roulette is clearly the
primary topic, but I also can't think of the casino game being a countable noun as Crouch, Swale's analysis ellucidates. We also have
The Roulettes, a '60s era British rock band, which gets roughly equal views to
Roulettes, the Royal Australian Air Force aerial acrobatic squadron. Looking at the Roulettes' (the RAAF squadron) website, they appear to be known commonly as The Roulettes not simply Roulettes. So, I do think this page is mistitled. I'm not certain whether to disambiguate as a separate plural disambiguation page or redirect to
Roulette (disambiguation), but do think there's no real clear primary topic for
The Roulettes either. Perhaps we should move
Roulettes to
The Roulettes (aerobatics), similar to BrownHairedGirl's suggestion, and then move
The Roulettes to
The Roulettes (band). We could then decide how to handle
The Roulettes and
Roulettes in terms of disambiguation?
Dmehus (
talk) 14:40, 3 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Reliable sources call the teams "Air Force Roulettes" or "RAAF Roulettes". When "the Roulettes" appears in running text, "the" is not capitalized, and when used in headlines and captions, just "Roulettes" is used.
[2][3][4] So "The Roulettes" does not appear to be an appropriate title for this article, per
WP:THE.
Station1 (
talk) 19:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)reply
WP:PLURALPT gives examples of
Times,
Papers and
Oranges where in the 1st and 2nd case they redirect to
Time (disambiguation) and
Paper (disambiguation) and in the 3rd the plural redirects to the fruit because the colour is normally uncountable. Given as noted there are several uses and none appears to be primary I'd go with no primary even though it could redirect to
Roulette (curve) per the Oranges example. In addition to potentially reviewing the title of the band maybe we could move this to
Air Force Roulettes as noted per above per
WP:NATURAL?
WP:DABCOMBINE seems to suggest if there is an overlap between the terms (meaning the terms are often used interchangeably) then a singular DAB makes sense which I think is the case here and if the band is moved then "The Roulettes" should also redirect to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 20:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)reply
The Roulettes are a group that stopped performing over 60 years ago and weren't famous even then. The display team is an active national institution which still performs over a hundred times each year. That's no contest. The plural of the curve has a better case but anyone searching for that is probably going to use the keyword word "curve" too, to avoid the gambling game. My !vote stands – it's simplest and best to do nothing.
Andrew🐉(
talk) 09:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Given the split in page views and long-term significance (of the curve) I'd still suggest disambiguation is best. Someone might use the plural to avoid the gambling name like
Orange/
Oranges. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 16:47, 8 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose Anyone searching with roulettes is likely seeking this article. Even if they're looking for
The Roulettes, the hatnote link here taking them to their sought article in one more click means they would be no better off landing on a dab page, and those seeking this page are much better off landing directly on the page they seek rather than on a godforsaken dab page. And, as others have noted, redirecting
Roulettes to the non-countable
Roulette makes no sense whatsoever. Nobody benefits from this proposed move. Nobody. --
В²C☎ 17:06, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
There probably most likely but
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC requires more than that. I agree retargeting to the uncountable
Roulette makes no sense and would help (almost) no one but its most helpful to take readers to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 21:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)reply
ATTENTION we have seen some poor non-admin closes in the last couple of weeks, one of which
murder in Texas is at move review right now. Would encourage non-admins to think carefully before making a close on this RM that does not take into account the "roulettes are" test in GBooks.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 20:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)reply
You made out point already, must you spam this page? Calidum 08:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)reply
I think that there's consensus that this term shouldn't redirect to
Roulette but its less clear about my alternative suggestion of disambiguating instead. That probably requires further consideration, maybe a new RM should be started at some point to do that rather than redirecting to the game which I agree doesn't make much sense. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 08:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose "Roulettes" is certainly sometimes used as a plural for a game, but it is not usually seen as a countable noun. Therefore in this case the current title is most helpful for the readers and the logic behind
WP:PLURALPT can apply.--
Yaksar(let's chat) 06:39, 17 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. As others I have said, this is a case where a reader searching for the plural form will undoubtedly be seeking this topic. Calidum 08:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Maybe this should be relisted (or a new RM stared) with a proposal to have "Roulettes" pointing to the DAB rather than redirecting to
Roulette. I think most people have disagreed with redirecting to
Roulette but as I have shown its unlikely that the aerobatics meaning is likely not the primary topic. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 08:35, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
I think people have made pretty clear that the opposition is to moving the subject page from the primary topic, not that they would instead want the base name to redirect to the DAB.--
Yaksar(let's chat) 13:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Not really, you're comment suggests it shouldn't redirect to the game because indeed that topic isn't usually countable. What you don't appear to have taken into account is topics like the curve and the band which do use the term "Roulettes". The logic is similar to the
Paper/
Papers and
Orange/
Oranges examples at PLURALPT in that the
curveis a contender for the plural form. That's why there should be no primary topic for this term. Also the "strong support" !vote isn't clear about if the game should be primary of if only this topic isn't primary. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 16:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Totally fair, but I believe mine may be the only oppose !vote expressing that ambiguity (and if it clears that up, I think the plural with a hatnote provides suitable disambiguation there).--
Yaksar(let's chat) 16:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.