![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
I have removed the criticism section for two reasons:
First of all, Rudy Giuliani presidential campaign, 2008, Mitt Romney presidential campaign, 2008, Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008, and Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 have no criticism sections.
Secondly, there was no decent intellectual criticism in the section to begin with. Two huge paragraphs about a couple politically incorrect fellows donating to his campaign. Does anyone actually think that is legitimate political criticism? If people actually consider who donated to someone's campaign to be appropriate criticism rather than a sensible critique of their policy decisions then I am very disappointed. -- RucasHost ( talk) 13:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] I haven't looked at the content of what was deleted or reinstated regarding this, so I'm not commenting at the moment on that - but the reason that criticism sections are removed from other pages is that they are integrated into the text of the articles rather than separated out as a collection of criticisms. If they are valid, notable, sourced critical points or controversies, they should be worked into the articles with appropriate responses, if any, as per WP:UNDUE. But as Gzkn once said, think about whether a "praise" section would - or should - survive in an article. However, again, this is not an excuse to remove criticism or controversy, it is an argument for integration. I haven't looked yet to see if you've done that, but if you haven't, you need to. Tvoz | talk 20:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Remove or edit down...This section is giting out of hand, as well editors are using this section for POV warring. Apparently we CAN use the words of David Frum, former Bush speech writer and senior adviser to the Rudolph Giuliani campaign. But we cannot use the words of Ron Paul on Glenn Beck? What is this except “mud slinging” the source has a POV interest. Of corse they are going to slander other candidates. This is ridiculous... What's next a NY MTA worker quote?-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 18:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is Buspar's edit describing the Paul interview on The Situation Room. It includes:
Here is the transcript of that interview, now published on CNN's website. It says this:
At no point does Wolf Blitzer instruct his audience not to "take comments as Paul's"; Blitzer simply expresses shock that Paul (or, one assumes, any rational American) could have written the things that appeared in The Ron Paul Political Report.
Am I missing some other part of the transcript (please quote), or is this as egregious as it looks? --- tqbf 05:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I’m feeling dejevue, Tqbf to quote you “Everything CNN, ABC, CBS, etc say does not create a license to add content to this article; if it did, the article would be vast and useless, a series of mashed up TV show transcripts.” --- tqbf 18:08, 5 January 2008 –Ironically you were talking about a Wolf Blitzer quote.... -- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 07:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
My opinion is that Paul’s response to the allegations should be in it’s entirety. To understand his feelings/views. And they should not be edited down.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 07:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The debate section has too much redundancy with the main article is the major sin. I don't want to just chop stuff willy-nilly, however. Other candidates have ~7 paragraphs and I think this can get cut down to it or at least close since there are a lot of good citations here. My proposed method:
1. Remove material that's in the main article already. Drop mention of the debates he wasn't in, except when it was covered by multiple sources (and even then, just a couple sentences will do).
2. Allot the most space to Paul's exchanges with other candidates that received a lot of media attention. The Paul-Giuliani exchange is clearly central both to his campaign and his publicity. The exchanges he had with Huckabee and McCain are also worth mentioning.
3. Move polling results to the main article, since the polls featured all of the candidates. Just summarize how many polls he won in this article.
4. Cut out more of the quotes. The Paul-Giuliani quotes are important given the exchange's notability, but some of the others can be moved to Wikiquote or into Paul's political positions article.
5. Maybe one paragraph featuring comments by outside observers on Paul's various debate performances, since that doesn't belong in the main debate article.
Thoughts? Buspar ( talk) 07:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Duchamps separated out the criticism section to Ron Paul presidential campaign, 2008 Criticism, and tqbf reverted it. I'm in agreement with tqbf on this action; the criticism section should be on this page. Separating the criticism section out is awkward, and is a move that is seldom done around here. I'm tempted to put that page up for deletion. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The quote, as I wrote it:
ʋTerjen wants to remove "a disservice to the young true believers".
I think the nut of this editorial is the word "disservice"; it's editorial backing for a direct criticism of Paul's campaign --- unlike many other sources (such as AP and Reuters) that are simply reporting on the controversy, a mainstream news outlet covering Paul's region has made a judgement call, and that's notable.
You are in a twisty maze of passages, all alike:
No action or opinions, and I'm reverting back to my version, but I'll go with what the chorus here decides.
--- tqbf 18:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
To address your core reason for inclusion, note that the Julie Mason commentary is not an editorial but instead an op-ed representing solely the views of Julie Mason. It thus cannot be taken as the official opinion of the newspaper. It is not "editorial backing for a direct criticism of Paul's campaign" nor proof that Houston Chronicle "has made a judgement call".
-- Terjen ( talk) 19:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed wording:
No comments and I'll WP:BOLD this into the article. Thanks! --- tqbf 21:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Two things:
--- tqbf 21:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
What sets me off is that the MSM does not refer to Paul as "Dr. Paul", unlike Paul's reverent followers. The words "Dr. Paul" change the interpretation of a quotation, at least for me. I'm willing to be told I'm crazy about this, but would strongly prefer we just honor source text unless it is grossly inaccurate. --- tqbf 21:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Titles
Use the title Dr. when referring to a doctor of any kind, on first reference only. Dr. Harry Junkins, director of the genetics lab, did not foresee the cuts, according to his staff. Junkins was, said many, upset when he heard the news. Use the title Dr. both for individuals who have received honorary doctoral degrees and for people with earned doctoral degrees. After first referring to an individual by using his or her full name, use that person's last name, even if he or she has a professional or religious title. When referring to faculty, use the title or rank given them by the University. If the person also is a doctor, use Dr. on first reference, then last name only for remainder of text. Dr. Mary Hartman addressed the group on March 31. Hartman discussed the theory of trickle-down economics. Avoid using long titles before the names of people, such as Associate director of development for the Annual Fund Joe Smith Instead, say Joe Smith, associate director of development for the Annual Fund The word the should be used before Rev. when referring to most clergy on first reference. On second reference, use only the person's last name. Use the Rev. Dr. only if the person has an earned doctoral degree and reference to the degree is relevant. Use Rabbi before a name on first reference; use only the last name on second reference. When referring to an endowed professorship, always use the full title on first reference, whether or not the title stands alone. the Powrie V. Doctor Chair of Deaf Studies Jane James, holder of the Powrie V. Doctor Chair of Deaf Studies After that use the Doctor Chair .....
Ducha mps_ comb MFA 23:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
If anyone is still at all interested, the Economist style guide states that "Dr" is preferred when describing people with a medical degree. However, this isn't really a style manual issue as this is a direct quote from a publication other than Wikipedia. I think it's bizarre to describe the use or misuse of an honorific as a grammatical issue; this is certainly a meaning of "grammar" with which I'm unfamiliar. They used "Mr" because Paul is most widely known in his capacity of politician and presidential candidate, not as a doctor. When referring to holders of public office, the Economist uses "Mr," "Mrs" or "Miss" and a surname. "Mr Bush," not "President Bush" or "President Bush, MBA." -- Newsroom hierarchies ( talk) 17:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
What the New Yorker said many months prior to the NRO story is irrelevant to the NRO story; the New Yorker writer was not privy to the NRO's analysis or findings. It is inappropriate to add it inline to the editorials that actually discussed the NRO findings --- doing so obviously creates the impression that the New Yorker refutes the NRO, which it certainly does not. --- tqbf 21:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with NH: the Christmas quote in the NR article is important --- it's further evidence that Paul himself wrote much of the content in the article. The identity of the author of the newsletter is critically important. Eliding the "Christmas" material helps create the impression that Paul had little to do with the newsletters, which is (at least) disputed. I don't want to revert this content, but neither should Buspar.
--- tqbf 21:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Tqbf argues that "Eliding the 'Christmas' material helps create the impression that Paul had little to do with the newsletters". This is nonsense: Eliding the 'Christmas' material avoids creating the impression that Paul may have been directly involved with the newsletters, which is (at least) disputed. We should avoid creating the impression that something is a fact when it is disputed. WP:OR and WP:SYNTH applies. Terjen ( talk) 22:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Terjen 100%.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 23:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Mitt Romney opposition section was killed.
Barack Obama opposition was killed.
John Edwards is two sentences.
Hillary Clintons opposition is bullet form.
Rudy Giuliani=none
Mike Huckabee has a section, Political attacks and Critcism
John McCains "Opposing forces" is bluuet form.
Romney 2008 talk page: Criticism Section I am not and have never been a big fan of criticism sections. I would like to integrate the section into the article. I understand there has been discussion of this above but I think it can be done in a very npov way, as some of the "criticism" isn't really criticism. What do other people think? Turtlescrubber 16:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me if you can find an eloquent way of doing it. — Frecklefsst | Talk 19:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that some (or all) of it doesn't belong in the Campaign development section because it isn't pertinent to the development of his campaign. Specifically the Marriott board section...I don't think that belongs in the article at all. Joseph Antley 19:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Marriott has also been criticized in the past for allowing alcohol in hotels even though he himself doesn't drink. His reply was that if a hotel wants to stay in business, it needs to sell drinks. (Apparently, drinks are high markup... I'm assuming that porn is even more cost beneficial, and therefore crucial to a competitive edge.) Rawkcuf 17:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Rawkcuf.
i feel as if there has been sufficient opposition to romney to warrant an opposition section on his page. and also his continued employment of illegal immigrants to do his yardwork (this is only mentioned in the article in a john mccain quote). i am actually very surprised that this hasn't come up anywhere, since it impacts his campaign. DrIdiot (talk) 04:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
We don't have any standard for how these campaign articles are structured; there are several variants currently being used across the 15 different articles for 2008. I know 'Opposition' sections are used in several of the articles, but to me they are kind of silly — of course political candidates have opposition, that's the whole point! Something like the employment of illegals for his yardwork belongs in the chronological narrative of his campaign. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC) I'd like to know how such a section would have any more consequence than Mitt_Romney_presidential_campaign,_2008#Endorsements. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
As User:Wasted Time R mentioned, all political campaigns have opposition. It wouldn't be politics with out it. I do not personally think an "Opposition" section is warranted, I do how ever find it quite strange there is no Criticism/Controversy section in this article, because that definitely is warranted in my opinion. Especially in one of the most negative campaigns in this election that has been met with much criticism and controversy. Public opposition through public criticism would naturally fit into such a section and I believed we should look further into that. Rtr10 (talk) 05:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Hillary 2008 talk page: Opposition from... opponents? I removed a bunch of pork barrel subsections in the Opposition section that were from other candidates. It's true that Clinton can be a polarizing figure, but we don't need sections devoted to standard political jockeying for position, going after the front runner, mud slinging or whatever you want to call it. Every candidate has beef with every other candidate or they wouldn't be running against each other - which is not the same as the legitimate information about people like Dick Morris (who may stand to gain money from Hillary bashing but has no inherently vested interest in seeing her fall). Nualran 14:19, 21 September
AS you can see there is no consensus across candidate but I believe the current section is not in balance with others (am most DO NOT even have a section) with two of those that do are structured differently. If we are not for another page I would like it deleted.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 22:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we can settle this one pretty easily. It turns out, the campaign articles that don't have criticism sections have criticism threaded through the entire article, instead of broken into a section, just as NH wanted. If you want to lose the criticism section, find places in the article to move the criticisms to. --- tqbf 03:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
First off I think "The New Republic" hit piece is not even close to NPOV... But I guess It must be seen and rebutted...
"In January 2008, David Frum, senior adviser to the Rudolph Giuliani campaign and former Bush speechwriter, appeared on The Daily Show and, responding to a question about Paul's standing in the GOP, said "Ron Paul is one of these people who -- in a time of trouble, people turn often to some pretty terrible answers. And he is absolutely an example of that.". Later he continued "He's one of those people who, the more you learn about him, the more disturbing a personality he becomes." ---Conflict of interest
"In an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Paul asserted that racism is incompatible with his beliefs and that he sees people as individuals - not collectively. He also dismissed the attack as an attempt to accuse him of racism by proxy, claiming that he has collected more money among African-Americans than any other Republican candidate.[178] Blitzer told Paul that he was "shocked" by the newsletters, because they did not seem to reflect "the Ron Paul that I've come to know, and the viewers have come to know" over the course of several interviews and the campaign. -----We have talked about how much TV journalism is to be added, so no final thoughts.
In Reason Magazine, Matt Welch questioned in a blog---&--and An Economist blog post continued, "if the person responsible for spreading venom under his name for many years remains a close associate, it suggests that...Paul is at least prepared to countenance pandering to racists, however respectable his own views." Blogging for the UK's The Spectator, Clive Davis called Paul an "irrelevance", echoed a comment comparing Paul to David Duke, and said he was unconvinced by Paul's CNN denial of the comments.-------I put in a New York times blog, it was shouted down, now these are here?-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 22:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Taking your concerns numbered 1 on,
The only criticism that seems even slightly exposed here is the Frum critique. I'd have less of a problem letting Frum go if the rest of the article hadn't spent months and months collecting community college professor endorsements and "Hotties 4 Ron Paul". Now, I think the RP supporters don't have a leg to stand on. If anything, WP:WEIGHT goes far too heavily the other way. --- tqbf 00:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
JLMadrigal has inserted this three times:
Despite the controversy over his newsletters, no recorded audio or video of Ron Paul has been found in which he makes a racist or homophobic remark, and no vote in his 30-year voting record has favored one race over another.[179][180] He has been welcomed and supported by libertarians for consistently opposing groupism in all its manifestations - particularly racism.
The refs are to Project VoteSmart and On the Issues. The last statement is uncited. -- Newsroom hierarchies ( talk) 02:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this edit --- read the first sentence in WP:V. Don't argue about what the "burden of proof" is; do the legwork and get a cite that says it. I helped write the sentence you're reverting back in, I even agree with the voting record part of it, but you got challenged. The answer isn't to yell at the opposing editor. --- tqbf 02:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
For the benefit of the editors of this page, and in order to better understand the nature of the Ron Paul Revolution, I am including a link to a more readable version of the US Constitution - in case the original is not readable enough. All of his supporters have this document in common as their basis of support. Since obedience of the US Constitution is the heart of the revolution, any attempt at understanding the campaign is otherwise futile. As Ron Paul has said, "I take my marching orders from the Constitution." Here is the link:
Pay particular attention to Article I, Sections 8-10 JLMadrigal ( talk) 13:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You're right, JLMadrigal. I wasn't paying attention to what you were citing in the Constitution; I have no interest whatsoever in your constitutional interpretation of Wikipedia policy. You are taking a lot of time without improving the article or, I suspect, convincing anybody that you are correct. Please note that even Paul supporters are reverting your article changes. --- tqbf 20:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
(<-dent) You appear to be trying to convince me to support Paul, and not making suggestions about the article text. Perhaps you're too close to this material, maybe just today?, to edit it. --- tqbf 23:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
We've now changed the source for the Stormfront donation from AlterNet to a message board thread (specifically disallowed by WP:V).
I don't buy that we can use AlterNet either. AlterNet is going to tend to favor my viewpoint (that Paul is a neo-confederate crackpot), but if we allow it, we also have to allow things like OpEdNews and a myriad of pro-Paul coatrack news sources.
I also think the Stormfront charge is inflammatory and that the bar we need to clear for sourcing it is higher.
I can't revert Terjen's latest change, because Duchamps_comb called 3RR on me, but until we have a good source, we should remove the graf.
--- tqbf 18:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll remove the section about Bill White's claims until a better source can be found. PRËTËNTI0üZ ( talk) 18:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm in the process of editing these.
I'm writing detailed edit summaries, but I want to discuss what I did with the first South Carolina debates here; if consensus accepts it, I'm going to keep doing it.
I want to write that these polls are "unscientific" (this isn't really a matter of opinion --- there's no such thing as a "scientific" self-selected poll), but I've avoided doing so until Terjen and Buspar can help come up with a neutral way of saying this. --- tqbf 20:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I tried really, really hard not to make any changes that altered the editorial stance of each section --- at no point did I introduce language to suggest that Paul had or hadn't "won" a debate. My intention here was to strip the coverage down to bare facts, so we can get a handle on how to condense it further. Comments, particularly from Terjen and Buspar, would be welcome --- I'll do my best to fix anything you think I've broken (clearly you can just go fix it yourself if you want). --- tqbf 23:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a simple question:
Why are there six paragraphs of information about fundraising in Q3'07?
--- tqbf 23:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
We cannot list donations --- especially donations mined out of donor lists at OpenSecrets --- as endorsements. People can have a variety of reasons for donating to candidates. They can be donating uniformly to a party. They can be trying to "throw" the nomination, as the GOP tried with the Dems in '04. PACs and corporations routinely donate to both sides of an election.
I just sniped several of these, but barring a loud and convincing objection, I'm going to scrub the endorsements clean of the ones that are synthesized out of evidence. Strong evidence of endorsement it may be, but it's not going in the article unless it's verifiable. --- tqbf 00:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I advocate splitting this into a separate article. Here is my rationale: the endorsements section allocates a huge number of references. This article currently has over 250 of them. The inline list of endorsements makes it more difficult to audit references, contributes substantially to the size of the article, and could easily be summarized with a paragraph of prose in this article. Just a thought. Any opinions? --- tqbf 01:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Ow my brain. I cut ~10k out of the article by:
And my real point is, the list is still too long, and if someone wants to make another pass great, but I'm still in favor of splitting it. Also, ow. --- tqbf 03:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
We're at 88k now. If we keep pushing, keep getting rid of redundant stuff, finish merging stuff out to the split articles, then the main article for this campaign could hit 60k this week! 60k means "maybe doesn't need to be shattered into a million pieces"! If you will it, it is no dream! --- tqbf 03:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
See this diff, which adds back 3k worth od text that I think is already well-covered in both this article and Moneybomb.
If there isn't a strong consensus to keep it, I'm just going to remove it again. Would be grateful if someone else did it for me, though. --- tqbf 04:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep it, it is a 2008 developement, very short. And "Would be grateful if someone else did it for me, though." DO NOT look for meatpuppets please.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 16:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Note that the Moneybomb article is Paul-specific; if we aren't merging Paul-specific Moneybomb material from here to there, I'm probably going to AfD it --- tqbf 05:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Would it be inappropriate to take a quick show of hands? Merge out Moneybomb content here to Moneybomb, delete Moneybomb, or keep as is? This isn't binding, of course.
Here and here are two edits by Duchamps_comb that inject the following into the article:
(Addition bolded). I have three objections to this language:
Here is my article text, which I propose is the correct text:
I invite anybody, especially Duchamps, to come up with compromise wording, or validate that the text is fine the way it was before Duchamps_comb changed it.
Fair warning: the following Duchamps_comb edits are reversions under WP:3RR
Can someone else here talk to this person? I'm done; he filed a 3RR on me (declined) behind my back, and then an ANI case, and if he keeps reverting, I'm going to start escalating this. --- tqbf 18:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
As you can see from the following edits tqbf has an obvious editing history. With such statement from edit summarys:
-next! Houston is adjacent to Paul's district [3]
-let's play "cut the most negative/newsworthy thing out of every quote" again, buspar [4]
-and Reason Magazine. Good luck spinning that one; the editor at Reason just called Paul a liar. [5]
-and now we have the Economist --- with actual reporting! Another fun one to try to spin [6]
-hey look! The Washington Post isn't much a fan either; here's an actual straight editorial on him [7]
-heh, turns out, if you're an RP supporter, you don't want to look too closely at this one! [8]
So Should someone with such distane for a canidate (Ron Paul) be so agressavely editing this page? Look at his controbutions
[9] is he single minded, or close to being a SPA?
Here's a few comments on this talk page:
“Again: editors are not required to be NPOV (that's Orwellian). Content is. Paul is a fringe candidate.” --- tqbf 22:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
“I've fixed the section. Naturally, Paulbots will revert it, but at least that's time taken away from create yet another 20 articles about the candidacy. Just a few more days to go!” --- tqbf 18:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
...”Now that Paul's unpopularity is beginning to be demonstrated verifiably...there's a lot more negative stuff about Paul in the most recent news cycle than in pretty much all previous cycles put together, and my inclination is that the article should be including it aggressively. Will wait for other editors to chime in. There are coming up on 10 reliable sources commenting on the neo-Confederacy story alone. “--- tqbf 06:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
“I am absolutely unsympathetic to the argument that there's "too much" criticism material in the article now; this article was absurdly overweight before any criticism was added, and virtually nothing has been done to correct that problem”. --- tqbf 17:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Shoping for meatpuppets?
“I can't revert Terjen's latest change, because Duchamps_comb called 3RR on me, but until we have a good source, we should remove the graf.” --- tqbf 18:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
3RR
I'm over 3RR on the relevant page, and trust that other editors will revert inappropriate changes until Monday. --- tqbf 01:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think what we have is active, aggressive, productive editing, not an edit war, and WP:BRD is working fine. We have a number of opposing editors who have agreed not to count edits, but apparantly Duchamps_comb isn't one of them.I had to look at this guy's contribs just to find out he had written a 3RR report--- tqbf 18:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I think some one needs a break...-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 21:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
John McCain is at 140 kilobytes, knock your selves out...-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 00:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
My addition regarding the defense of RP by the NAACP president was up for 8 minutes before tqbf deleted it in its entirety. So much for unbiased. So much for this "support" he was talking about (as if an NAACP defense is not noteworthy). JLMadrigal ( talk) 03:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
(<-dent) but he's the president of black people, NH! :P
The solution to the Prison Planet problem in this case --- because I think we'd have a bitter fight trying to keep the NAACP thing out of the article --- is to simply say, "According to online conspiracy theorist website Prison Planet, ...". --- tqbf 03:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The Endorsements section is still part of why this article is bloated. Many of the links are to non-notable people (former communications director of a minor third party); or are not links to an endorsement, but to a campaign donation (not the same thing, as people have noted). I'd like to see this trimmed back, in spite of the person who said something like "But we really need this to show how popular Ron Paul is." (If you don't see the POV in that objection, you need to think really heavily about editing any RP-related articles for a while.) -- Orange Mike | Talk 15:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
JLMadrigal and I are disputing the graf on the the Austin NAACP guy's quote. Does anyone else think the article should contain the entire quote? Everyone else's quotes are integrated (sometimes poorly) into the prose, and this NAACP guy now gets more space in the article than Paul himself.
--- tqbf 01:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to see us cutting back the section, but I'd like to see this precedent become binding; if we're keeping it to the facts, there's a lot of other sources I'm going to be scrubbing out of the article as well.
--- tqbf 01:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Dan Kennedy criticized the media for not following up on the stories, saying Kirchick's New Republic findings "deserve a broader audience". Opining that many of Paul's votes were likely to come from anti-war liberals, Kennedy wrote "at the very least, those folks need to know precisely for whom they are voting." [10]
How do I hate this quote? Let me count the ways:
Ok, I guess there's just 4 ways. But they're good ways.
Let's not fix this language, or neutralize this language, or downplay this language. This is an article about the Paul campaign. Take the Mormon thing out, please. --- tqbf 17:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I struck the content. I've watched 3 revisions of this content add progressively more context, and the more context we add, the more obvious it is that this is not a fact that belongs in the Ron Paul article. It's an obvious bad sign when a fact about Romney demands more references than those about Paul. --- tqbf 21:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Usually, facts are stated in time-based order. Events that occur prior to an election should be stated before the results of the election. Specifically, the facts that only Romney and Paul campaigned in Nevada prior to the election should appear before the results are presented. Let's discuss. — X S G 21:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Terjen just made the comment: "if Romney is not relevant, then he shouldn't be included, if he is, we also need the context explaining his extraordinary result". Here is the explaination: The reason Romney got over 3 times as many votes is because 3 times as many people voted for him. That it! Stop trying to "explain" why your guy got trounced. Niteshift36 ( talk) 04:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the article, Google employees have donated $22,650 to Ron Paul. As Ron Paul has received millions of dollars in donations, I don't think that the factoid is really relevant or accurate as the employer field in OpenSecrets.org is blank for millions of dollars of donations to the Paul campaign. Burzmali ( talk) 17:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
I have removed the criticism section for two reasons:
First of all, Rudy Giuliani presidential campaign, 2008, Mitt Romney presidential campaign, 2008, Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008, and Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 have no criticism sections.
Secondly, there was no decent intellectual criticism in the section to begin with. Two huge paragraphs about a couple politically incorrect fellows donating to his campaign. Does anyone actually think that is legitimate political criticism? If people actually consider who donated to someone's campaign to be appropriate criticism rather than a sensible critique of their policy decisions then I am very disappointed. -- RucasHost ( talk) 13:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] I haven't looked at the content of what was deleted or reinstated regarding this, so I'm not commenting at the moment on that - but the reason that criticism sections are removed from other pages is that they are integrated into the text of the articles rather than separated out as a collection of criticisms. If they are valid, notable, sourced critical points or controversies, they should be worked into the articles with appropriate responses, if any, as per WP:UNDUE. But as Gzkn once said, think about whether a "praise" section would - or should - survive in an article. However, again, this is not an excuse to remove criticism or controversy, it is an argument for integration. I haven't looked yet to see if you've done that, but if you haven't, you need to. Tvoz | talk 20:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Remove or edit down...This section is giting out of hand, as well editors are using this section for POV warring. Apparently we CAN use the words of David Frum, former Bush speech writer and senior adviser to the Rudolph Giuliani campaign. But we cannot use the words of Ron Paul on Glenn Beck? What is this except “mud slinging” the source has a POV interest. Of corse they are going to slander other candidates. This is ridiculous... What's next a NY MTA worker quote?-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 18:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is Buspar's edit describing the Paul interview on The Situation Room. It includes:
Here is the transcript of that interview, now published on CNN's website. It says this:
At no point does Wolf Blitzer instruct his audience not to "take comments as Paul's"; Blitzer simply expresses shock that Paul (or, one assumes, any rational American) could have written the things that appeared in The Ron Paul Political Report.
Am I missing some other part of the transcript (please quote), or is this as egregious as it looks? --- tqbf 05:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I’m feeling dejevue, Tqbf to quote you “Everything CNN, ABC, CBS, etc say does not create a license to add content to this article; if it did, the article would be vast and useless, a series of mashed up TV show transcripts.” --- tqbf 18:08, 5 January 2008 –Ironically you were talking about a Wolf Blitzer quote.... -- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 07:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
My opinion is that Paul’s response to the allegations should be in it’s entirety. To understand his feelings/views. And they should not be edited down.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 07:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The debate section has too much redundancy with the main article is the major sin. I don't want to just chop stuff willy-nilly, however. Other candidates have ~7 paragraphs and I think this can get cut down to it or at least close since there are a lot of good citations here. My proposed method:
1. Remove material that's in the main article already. Drop mention of the debates he wasn't in, except when it was covered by multiple sources (and even then, just a couple sentences will do).
2. Allot the most space to Paul's exchanges with other candidates that received a lot of media attention. The Paul-Giuliani exchange is clearly central both to his campaign and his publicity. The exchanges he had with Huckabee and McCain are also worth mentioning.
3. Move polling results to the main article, since the polls featured all of the candidates. Just summarize how many polls he won in this article.
4. Cut out more of the quotes. The Paul-Giuliani quotes are important given the exchange's notability, but some of the others can be moved to Wikiquote or into Paul's political positions article.
5. Maybe one paragraph featuring comments by outside observers on Paul's various debate performances, since that doesn't belong in the main debate article.
Thoughts? Buspar ( talk) 07:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Duchamps separated out the criticism section to Ron Paul presidential campaign, 2008 Criticism, and tqbf reverted it. I'm in agreement with tqbf on this action; the criticism section should be on this page. Separating the criticism section out is awkward, and is a move that is seldom done around here. I'm tempted to put that page up for deletion. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The quote, as I wrote it:
ʋTerjen wants to remove "a disservice to the young true believers".
I think the nut of this editorial is the word "disservice"; it's editorial backing for a direct criticism of Paul's campaign --- unlike many other sources (such as AP and Reuters) that are simply reporting on the controversy, a mainstream news outlet covering Paul's region has made a judgement call, and that's notable.
You are in a twisty maze of passages, all alike:
No action or opinions, and I'm reverting back to my version, but I'll go with what the chorus here decides.
--- tqbf 18:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
To address your core reason for inclusion, note that the Julie Mason commentary is not an editorial but instead an op-ed representing solely the views of Julie Mason. It thus cannot be taken as the official opinion of the newspaper. It is not "editorial backing for a direct criticism of Paul's campaign" nor proof that Houston Chronicle "has made a judgement call".
-- Terjen ( talk) 19:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed wording:
No comments and I'll WP:BOLD this into the article. Thanks! --- tqbf 21:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Two things:
--- tqbf 21:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
What sets me off is that the MSM does not refer to Paul as "Dr. Paul", unlike Paul's reverent followers. The words "Dr. Paul" change the interpretation of a quotation, at least for me. I'm willing to be told I'm crazy about this, but would strongly prefer we just honor source text unless it is grossly inaccurate. --- tqbf 21:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Titles
Use the title Dr. when referring to a doctor of any kind, on first reference only. Dr. Harry Junkins, director of the genetics lab, did not foresee the cuts, according to his staff. Junkins was, said many, upset when he heard the news. Use the title Dr. both for individuals who have received honorary doctoral degrees and for people with earned doctoral degrees. After first referring to an individual by using his or her full name, use that person's last name, even if he or she has a professional or religious title. When referring to faculty, use the title or rank given them by the University. If the person also is a doctor, use Dr. on first reference, then last name only for remainder of text. Dr. Mary Hartman addressed the group on March 31. Hartman discussed the theory of trickle-down economics. Avoid using long titles before the names of people, such as Associate director of development for the Annual Fund Joe Smith Instead, say Joe Smith, associate director of development for the Annual Fund The word the should be used before Rev. when referring to most clergy on first reference. On second reference, use only the person's last name. Use the Rev. Dr. only if the person has an earned doctoral degree and reference to the degree is relevant. Use Rabbi before a name on first reference; use only the last name on second reference. When referring to an endowed professorship, always use the full title on first reference, whether or not the title stands alone. the Powrie V. Doctor Chair of Deaf Studies Jane James, holder of the Powrie V. Doctor Chair of Deaf Studies After that use the Doctor Chair .....
Ducha mps_ comb MFA 23:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
If anyone is still at all interested, the Economist style guide states that "Dr" is preferred when describing people with a medical degree. However, this isn't really a style manual issue as this is a direct quote from a publication other than Wikipedia. I think it's bizarre to describe the use or misuse of an honorific as a grammatical issue; this is certainly a meaning of "grammar" with which I'm unfamiliar. They used "Mr" because Paul is most widely known in his capacity of politician and presidential candidate, not as a doctor. When referring to holders of public office, the Economist uses "Mr," "Mrs" or "Miss" and a surname. "Mr Bush," not "President Bush" or "President Bush, MBA." -- Newsroom hierarchies ( talk) 17:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
What the New Yorker said many months prior to the NRO story is irrelevant to the NRO story; the New Yorker writer was not privy to the NRO's analysis or findings. It is inappropriate to add it inline to the editorials that actually discussed the NRO findings --- doing so obviously creates the impression that the New Yorker refutes the NRO, which it certainly does not. --- tqbf 21:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with NH: the Christmas quote in the NR article is important --- it's further evidence that Paul himself wrote much of the content in the article. The identity of the author of the newsletter is critically important. Eliding the "Christmas" material helps create the impression that Paul had little to do with the newsletters, which is (at least) disputed. I don't want to revert this content, but neither should Buspar.
--- tqbf 21:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Tqbf argues that "Eliding the 'Christmas' material helps create the impression that Paul had little to do with the newsletters". This is nonsense: Eliding the 'Christmas' material avoids creating the impression that Paul may have been directly involved with the newsletters, which is (at least) disputed. We should avoid creating the impression that something is a fact when it is disputed. WP:OR and WP:SYNTH applies. Terjen ( talk) 22:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Terjen 100%.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 23:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Mitt Romney opposition section was killed.
Barack Obama opposition was killed.
John Edwards is two sentences.
Hillary Clintons opposition is bullet form.
Rudy Giuliani=none
Mike Huckabee has a section, Political attacks and Critcism
John McCains "Opposing forces" is bluuet form.
Romney 2008 talk page: Criticism Section I am not and have never been a big fan of criticism sections. I would like to integrate the section into the article. I understand there has been discussion of this above but I think it can be done in a very npov way, as some of the "criticism" isn't really criticism. What do other people think? Turtlescrubber 16:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good to me if you can find an eloquent way of doing it. — Frecklefsst | Talk 19:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that some (or all) of it doesn't belong in the Campaign development section because it isn't pertinent to the development of his campaign. Specifically the Marriott board section...I don't think that belongs in the article at all. Joseph Antley 19:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Marriott has also been criticized in the past for allowing alcohol in hotels even though he himself doesn't drink. His reply was that if a hotel wants to stay in business, it needs to sell drinks. (Apparently, drinks are high markup... I'm assuming that porn is even more cost beneficial, and therefore crucial to a competitive edge.) Rawkcuf 17:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Rawkcuf.
i feel as if there has been sufficient opposition to romney to warrant an opposition section on his page. and also his continued employment of illegal immigrants to do his yardwork (this is only mentioned in the article in a john mccain quote). i am actually very surprised that this hasn't come up anywhere, since it impacts his campaign. DrIdiot (talk) 04:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
We don't have any standard for how these campaign articles are structured; there are several variants currently being used across the 15 different articles for 2008. I know 'Opposition' sections are used in several of the articles, but to me they are kind of silly — of course political candidates have opposition, that's the whole point! Something like the employment of illegals for his yardwork belongs in the chronological narrative of his campaign. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC) I'd like to know how such a section would have any more consequence than Mitt_Romney_presidential_campaign,_2008#Endorsements. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
As User:Wasted Time R mentioned, all political campaigns have opposition. It wouldn't be politics with out it. I do not personally think an "Opposition" section is warranted, I do how ever find it quite strange there is no Criticism/Controversy section in this article, because that definitely is warranted in my opinion. Especially in one of the most negative campaigns in this election that has been met with much criticism and controversy. Public opposition through public criticism would naturally fit into such a section and I believed we should look further into that. Rtr10 (talk) 05:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Hillary 2008 talk page: Opposition from... opponents? I removed a bunch of pork barrel subsections in the Opposition section that were from other candidates. It's true that Clinton can be a polarizing figure, but we don't need sections devoted to standard political jockeying for position, going after the front runner, mud slinging or whatever you want to call it. Every candidate has beef with every other candidate or they wouldn't be running against each other - which is not the same as the legitimate information about people like Dick Morris (who may stand to gain money from Hillary bashing but has no inherently vested interest in seeing her fall). Nualran 14:19, 21 September
AS you can see there is no consensus across candidate but I believe the current section is not in balance with others (am most DO NOT even have a section) with two of those that do are structured differently. If we are not for another page I would like it deleted.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 22:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we can settle this one pretty easily. It turns out, the campaign articles that don't have criticism sections have criticism threaded through the entire article, instead of broken into a section, just as NH wanted. If you want to lose the criticism section, find places in the article to move the criticisms to. --- tqbf 03:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
First off I think "The New Republic" hit piece is not even close to NPOV... But I guess It must be seen and rebutted...
"In January 2008, David Frum, senior adviser to the Rudolph Giuliani campaign and former Bush speechwriter, appeared on The Daily Show and, responding to a question about Paul's standing in the GOP, said "Ron Paul is one of these people who -- in a time of trouble, people turn often to some pretty terrible answers. And he is absolutely an example of that.". Later he continued "He's one of those people who, the more you learn about him, the more disturbing a personality he becomes." ---Conflict of interest
"In an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Paul asserted that racism is incompatible with his beliefs and that he sees people as individuals - not collectively. He also dismissed the attack as an attempt to accuse him of racism by proxy, claiming that he has collected more money among African-Americans than any other Republican candidate.[178] Blitzer told Paul that he was "shocked" by the newsletters, because they did not seem to reflect "the Ron Paul that I've come to know, and the viewers have come to know" over the course of several interviews and the campaign. -----We have talked about how much TV journalism is to be added, so no final thoughts.
In Reason Magazine, Matt Welch questioned in a blog---&--and An Economist blog post continued, "if the person responsible for spreading venom under his name for many years remains a close associate, it suggests that...Paul is at least prepared to countenance pandering to racists, however respectable his own views." Blogging for the UK's The Spectator, Clive Davis called Paul an "irrelevance", echoed a comment comparing Paul to David Duke, and said he was unconvinced by Paul's CNN denial of the comments.-------I put in a New York times blog, it was shouted down, now these are here?-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 22:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Taking your concerns numbered 1 on,
The only criticism that seems even slightly exposed here is the Frum critique. I'd have less of a problem letting Frum go if the rest of the article hadn't spent months and months collecting community college professor endorsements and "Hotties 4 Ron Paul". Now, I think the RP supporters don't have a leg to stand on. If anything, WP:WEIGHT goes far too heavily the other way. --- tqbf 00:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
JLMadrigal has inserted this three times:
Despite the controversy over his newsletters, no recorded audio or video of Ron Paul has been found in which he makes a racist or homophobic remark, and no vote in his 30-year voting record has favored one race over another.[179][180] He has been welcomed and supported by libertarians for consistently opposing groupism in all its manifestations - particularly racism.
The refs are to Project VoteSmart and On the Issues. The last statement is uncited. -- Newsroom hierarchies ( talk) 02:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this edit --- read the first sentence in WP:V. Don't argue about what the "burden of proof" is; do the legwork and get a cite that says it. I helped write the sentence you're reverting back in, I even agree with the voting record part of it, but you got challenged. The answer isn't to yell at the opposing editor. --- tqbf 02:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
For the benefit of the editors of this page, and in order to better understand the nature of the Ron Paul Revolution, I am including a link to a more readable version of the US Constitution - in case the original is not readable enough. All of his supporters have this document in common as their basis of support. Since obedience of the US Constitution is the heart of the revolution, any attempt at understanding the campaign is otherwise futile. As Ron Paul has said, "I take my marching orders from the Constitution." Here is the link:
Pay particular attention to Article I, Sections 8-10 JLMadrigal ( talk) 13:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You're right, JLMadrigal. I wasn't paying attention to what you were citing in the Constitution; I have no interest whatsoever in your constitutional interpretation of Wikipedia policy. You are taking a lot of time without improving the article or, I suspect, convincing anybody that you are correct. Please note that even Paul supporters are reverting your article changes. --- tqbf 20:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
(<-dent) You appear to be trying to convince me to support Paul, and not making suggestions about the article text. Perhaps you're too close to this material, maybe just today?, to edit it. --- tqbf 23:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
We've now changed the source for the Stormfront donation from AlterNet to a message board thread (specifically disallowed by WP:V).
I don't buy that we can use AlterNet either. AlterNet is going to tend to favor my viewpoint (that Paul is a neo-confederate crackpot), but if we allow it, we also have to allow things like OpEdNews and a myriad of pro-Paul coatrack news sources.
I also think the Stormfront charge is inflammatory and that the bar we need to clear for sourcing it is higher.
I can't revert Terjen's latest change, because Duchamps_comb called 3RR on me, but until we have a good source, we should remove the graf.
--- tqbf 18:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. I'll remove the section about Bill White's claims until a better source can be found. PRËTËNTI0üZ ( talk) 18:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm in the process of editing these.
I'm writing detailed edit summaries, but I want to discuss what I did with the first South Carolina debates here; if consensus accepts it, I'm going to keep doing it.
I want to write that these polls are "unscientific" (this isn't really a matter of opinion --- there's no such thing as a "scientific" self-selected poll), but I've avoided doing so until Terjen and Buspar can help come up with a neutral way of saying this. --- tqbf 20:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I tried really, really hard not to make any changes that altered the editorial stance of each section --- at no point did I introduce language to suggest that Paul had or hadn't "won" a debate. My intention here was to strip the coverage down to bare facts, so we can get a handle on how to condense it further. Comments, particularly from Terjen and Buspar, would be welcome --- I'll do my best to fix anything you think I've broken (clearly you can just go fix it yourself if you want). --- tqbf 23:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a simple question:
Why are there six paragraphs of information about fundraising in Q3'07?
--- tqbf 23:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
We cannot list donations --- especially donations mined out of donor lists at OpenSecrets --- as endorsements. People can have a variety of reasons for donating to candidates. They can be donating uniformly to a party. They can be trying to "throw" the nomination, as the GOP tried with the Dems in '04. PACs and corporations routinely donate to both sides of an election.
I just sniped several of these, but barring a loud and convincing objection, I'm going to scrub the endorsements clean of the ones that are synthesized out of evidence. Strong evidence of endorsement it may be, but it's not going in the article unless it's verifiable. --- tqbf 00:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I advocate splitting this into a separate article. Here is my rationale: the endorsements section allocates a huge number of references. This article currently has over 250 of them. The inline list of endorsements makes it more difficult to audit references, contributes substantially to the size of the article, and could easily be summarized with a paragraph of prose in this article. Just a thought. Any opinions? --- tqbf 01:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Ow my brain. I cut ~10k out of the article by:
And my real point is, the list is still too long, and if someone wants to make another pass great, but I'm still in favor of splitting it. Also, ow. --- tqbf 03:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
We're at 88k now. If we keep pushing, keep getting rid of redundant stuff, finish merging stuff out to the split articles, then the main article for this campaign could hit 60k this week! 60k means "maybe doesn't need to be shattered into a million pieces"! If you will it, it is no dream! --- tqbf 03:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
See this diff, which adds back 3k worth od text that I think is already well-covered in both this article and Moneybomb.
If there isn't a strong consensus to keep it, I'm just going to remove it again. Would be grateful if someone else did it for me, though. --- tqbf 04:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep it, it is a 2008 developement, very short. And "Would be grateful if someone else did it for me, though." DO NOT look for meatpuppets please.-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 16:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Note that the Moneybomb article is Paul-specific; if we aren't merging Paul-specific Moneybomb material from here to there, I'm probably going to AfD it --- tqbf 05:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Would it be inappropriate to take a quick show of hands? Merge out Moneybomb content here to Moneybomb, delete Moneybomb, or keep as is? This isn't binding, of course.
Here and here are two edits by Duchamps_comb that inject the following into the article:
(Addition bolded). I have three objections to this language:
Here is my article text, which I propose is the correct text:
I invite anybody, especially Duchamps, to come up with compromise wording, or validate that the text is fine the way it was before Duchamps_comb changed it.
Fair warning: the following Duchamps_comb edits are reversions under WP:3RR
Can someone else here talk to this person? I'm done; he filed a 3RR on me (declined) behind my back, and then an ANI case, and if he keeps reverting, I'm going to start escalating this. --- tqbf 18:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
As you can see from the following edits tqbf has an obvious editing history. With such statement from edit summarys:
-next! Houston is adjacent to Paul's district [3]
-let's play "cut the most negative/newsworthy thing out of every quote" again, buspar [4]
-and Reason Magazine. Good luck spinning that one; the editor at Reason just called Paul a liar. [5]
-and now we have the Economist --- with actual reporting! Another fun one to try to spin [6]
-hey look! The Washington Post isn't much a fan either; here's an actual straight editorial on him [7]
-heh, turns out, if you're an RP supporter, you don't want to look too closely at this one! [8]
So Should someone with such distane for a canidate (Ron Paul) be so agressavely editing this page? Look at his controbutions
[9] is he single minded, or close to being a SPA?
Here's a few comments on this talk page:
“Again: editors are not required to be NPOV (that's Orwellian). Content is. Paul is a fringe candidate.” --- tqbf 22:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
“I've fixed the section. Naturally, Paulbots will revert it, but at least that's time taken away from create yet another 20 articles about the candidacy. Just a few more days to go!” --- tqbf 18:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
...”Now that Paul's unpopularity is beginning to be demonstrated verifiably...there's a lot more negative stuff about Paul in the most recent news cycle than in pretty much all previous cycles put together, and my inclination is that the article should be including it aggressively. Will wait for other editors to chime in. There are coming up on 10 reliable sources commenting on the neo-Confederacy story alone. “--- tqbf 06:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
“I am absolutely unsympathetic to the argument that there's "too much" criticism material in the article now; this article was absurdly overweight before any criticism was added, and virtually nothing has been done to correct that problem”. --- tqbf 17:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Shoping for meatpuppets?
“I can't revert Terjen's latest change, because Duchamps_comb called 3RR on me, but until we have a good source, we should remove the graf.” --- tqbf 18:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
3RR
I'm over 3RR on the relevant page, and trust that other editors will revert inappropriate changes until Monday. --- tqbf 01:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think what we have is active, aggressive, productive editing, not an edit war, and WP:BRD is working fine. We have a number of opposing editors who have agreed not to count edits, but apparantly Duchamps_comb isn't one of them.I had to look at this guy's contribs just to find out he had written a 3RR report--- tqbf 18:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I think some one needs a break...-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 21:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
John McCain is at 140 kilobytes, knock your selves out...-- Ducha mps_ comb MFA 00:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
My addition regarding the defense of RP by the NAACP president was up for 8 minutes before tqbf deleted it in its entirety. So much for unbiased. So much for this "support" he was talking about (as if an NAACP defense is not noteworthy). JLMadrigal ( talk) 03:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
(<-dent) but he's the president of black people, NH! :P
The solution to the Prison Planet problem in this case --- because I think we'd have a bitter fight trying to keep the NAACP thing out of the article --- is to simply say, "According to online conspiracy theorist website Prison Planet, ...". --- tqbf 03:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The Endorsements section is still part of why this article is bloated. Many of the links are to non-notable people (former communications director of a minor third party); or are not links to an endorsement, but to a campaign donation (not the same thing, as people have noted). I'd like to see this trimmed back, in spite of the person who said something like "But we really need this to show how popular Ron Paul is." (If you don't see the POV in that objection, you need to think really heavily about editing any RP-related articles for a while.) -- Orange Mike | Talk 15:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
JLMadrigal and I are disputing the graf on the the Austin NAACP guy's quote. Does anyone else think the article should contain the entire quote? Everyone else's quotes are integrated (sometimes poorly) into the prose, and this NAACP guy now gets more space in the article than Paul himself.
--- tqbf 01:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to see us cutting back the section, but I'd like to see this precedent become binding; if we're keeping it to the facts, there's a lot of other sources I'm going to be scrubbing out of the article as well.
--- tqbf 01:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Dan Kennedy criticized the media for not following up on the stories, saying Kirchick's New Republic findings "deserve a broader audience". Opining that many of Paul's votes were likely to come from anti-war liberals, Kennedy wrote "at the very least, those folks need to know precisely for whom they are voting." [10]
How do I hate this quote? Let me count the ways:
Ok, I guess there's just 4 ways. But they're good ways.
Let's not fix this language, or neutralize this language, or downplay this language. This is an article about the Paul campaign. Take the Mormon thing out, please. --- tqbf 17:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I struck the content. I've watched 3 revisions of this content add progressively more context, and the more context we add, the more obvious it is that this is not a fact that belongs in the Ron Paul article. It's an obvious bad sign when a fact about Romney demands more references than those about Paul. --- tqbf 21:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Usually, facts are stated in time-based order. Events that occur prior to an election should be stated before the results of the election. Specifically, the facts that only Romney and Paul campaigned in Nevada prior to the election should appear before the results are presented. Let's discuss. — X S G 21:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Terjen just made the comment: "if Romney is not relevant, then he shouldn't be included, if he is, we also need the context explaining his extraordinary result". Here is the explaination: The reason Romney got over 3 times as many votes is because 3 times as many people voted for him. That it! Stop trying to "explain" why your guy got trounced. Niteshift36 ( talk) 04:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
According to the article, Google employees have donated $22,650 to Ron Paul. As Ron Paul has received millions of dollars in donations, I don't think that the factoid is really relevant or accurate as the employer field in OpenSecrets.org is blank for millions of dollars of donations to the Paul campaign. Burzmali ( talk) 17:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)