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I will now rudely combine all the pro-life and abortion subpoints under one head. John J. Bulten 07:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
JLMadrigal says that the We the People Act would "prevent federal courts from expending funds for the purpose of interfering in state and local government decisions regarding the display of religious text and imagery, abortion, sexual practices, and same-sex marriage" instead of "would forbid federal courts from spending any money to enforce their judgments
Here's what the Act says:
I am correcting the error. ←
BenB4 13:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Why BenB4 refuses to acknowledge Paul's position of the States as the center of the abortion issue is beyond me. Paul's position is abundantly clear. Please keep the reference to the 10th amendment. JLMadrigal 01:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved by John J. Bulten 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul is pro-life, but, consistent with his opposition to federal power, he is in favor of allowing each state to decide whether to allow or prohibit it, instead of the federal government.
Ron Paul wants to allow each state to allow or prohibit life? I assume that "it" is supposed to refer to abortion in this context, but perhaps that could be made a bit more clear. 62.158.126.58 10:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
(Deleted RFCpol tag because of no action, and general consensus that the legislation should be included briefly whether or not it conflicts with stated positions.)
John J. Bulten 23:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
An issue has arisen as to whether the
Ron Paul#Political positions section should include a description of the legislation Paul has introduced which conflicts with some of his stated positions. Should it? ←
BenB4 07:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
First of all, you would need a reliable source stating that his legislation conflicts with some of his stated positions, or you are firmly in Original Research Land.-- Gloriamarie 07:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It is not stable and in dispute because Gloriamarie, who proudly proclaims her support for Paul on her userpage, thinks we should include what he says about himself but not the conflicting legislation he has introduced. Clearly this is headed to mediation, so I doubt it would make a good FAC. ←
BenB4 06:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
At least two other editors have agreed with me, so don't blame that on me. I'm just working to make the article better. You have likewise proudly proclaimed your non-support for Ron Paul, but I don't see what that has to do with it-- edits and whether they are 1.) neutral and well-sourced, and 2.) improve the article, are what count. Just because I'm a vegetarian doesn't mean I can't edit the article on vegetarianism, if my contributions improve the content and are neutral and well-sourced.-- Gloriamarie 06:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
It's really not a good idea to delete other users' comments on talk pages. Turtlescrubber was only telling you not to attack me; that is not a personal attack in and of itself.-- Gloriamarie 13:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with GloriaMarie on her entries. I don't know why everything Ben is writing has to centre around abortion, perhaps he would prefer to hang around the Abortion pages and write about useless things there instead? Gloria's version (I hope you don't mind me calling you that) of the page was a lot better than the hoo har Ben wrote. You should not be making personal attacks on other editors as this is not the place to do them, secondly your opinions are as neutral as George Bush's on the Iraq war. I am British and the pages on Ron Paul (who even I think should be president, if only I could vote!!) have taught me a lot about him and his campaign. He is the type of guy we need more of, especially here in England where political correctness and everyone's "rights" have blighted the lives of many because people are too worried about their political face to stand up for what is right. That is something Ron Paul does and Gloria has shown this in her writing over many subjects. 80.74.247.74 13:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Google hits are actually usually not a good measure of relative notability, as evidenced by a comparison of a teen idol (2,190,000 hits) vs. a two-time Nobel Prize-winning scientist who invented the transistor, came up with the BCS theory of superconductivity and changed modern life as almost everyone knows it (327,000 hits). Some things are just more likely to be mentioned on websites; that doesn't necessarily make them more notable. It only means they're more likely to be featured on a website.-- Gloriamarie 02:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
So, now there is a dispute about whether it is okay to say that Paul is pro-life without including two dozen words of rambling "nuance" about the 10th Amendment which contradict his votes and the bills he has introduced to ban abortions.
[2]
[3] I will let Dr. Paul speak for himself:
By my count, there are at least three dozen more where those came from.
If you want a constitutional amendment to overrule the 10th Amendment, then do you think you're going to go around telling people that you think the 10th Amendment should be the deciding rule on the issue? No!
It feels like
Bizarro World that this is even an issue. (Note: I did remove the pro-life mention from the first paragraph -- and I wasn't the one who put it there -- as it should occur with his positions.) ←
BenB4 18:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Disagree, Gloriamarie - one purpose of the lede is to summarize things that are gone into in detail in the article. The very fact that there is a (short) paragraph about his position on abortion makes it correct to include it in the lede. I don't see at all why you conclude that it is less important than free trade which is in the lede, or that including the words "pro-life" where I did in any way is creating what you call in your edit summary "an abortion-centered laundry list" or that it makes the article "completely based on abortion" - huh? That's just ridiculous. I think it is necessary to include pro-life along with the other stands he has taken on the major issues of our times, and in fact his stand on abortion is unusual and therefore notable. Sorry, GLoriamarie, but I really disagree with you on this one, and the fact that you've compromised on it isn't really a compelling argument to me. Tvoz | talk 00:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You have excellent points and argue them well. I guess context is needed. To explain about the discussion that has been going on, abortion was put in the lead many times, by itself, with no explanation with the quote that Paul was an "unshakeable foe" of abortion. Some editors thought this gave a misleading impression on his position, and user JLMadrigal would insert a sentence or two about how Paul was pro-life but according to the 10th Amendment didn't believe in federal intervention in the process. BenB4 would then put in additional sentences on specific legislation, which amounted to an entire paragraph in the opening on abortion, which was not appropriate. At that time, the political positions section had two full paragraphs on abortion, a half of another paragraph, and a mention in another paragraph! As a compromise, I moved the paragraph which appeared in the opening to the Political Positions section and removed it from the opening, because both sides cannot agree on what to say about it, except at length. When I called it an "abortion-centered laundry list," I was referring to the mentions in four paragraphs of BenB4's version of the Political positions section. I did not mean your edit at all.-- Gloriamarie 01:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The "unshakable foe of abortion" quote comes from Paul's own campaign web site.
[12] ←
BenB4 02:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tvoz that Paul's position on abortion appears to be less nuanced than some of his other positions. It does seem that he typically votes on measures that limit federal involvement in abortion/privacy matters on the basis that it is a matter for the states to decide, but his personal position is clearly pro-life. Accordingly, I don't understand why it is a problem to indicate that Paul is pro-life within the summary. Jogurney 03:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Since I have been invited by BenB4 to reenter this never-ending debate, I will give it another shot. Sure Paul is pro-life. He is also anti-federal. The two define his position and cannot be separated. If his position on abortion is mentioned in the lead it must be qualified. BenB4 wishes to simply label him as anti-abortion in the hopes of turning away pro-choice voters across the board. But Paul would have potential pro-choice support in pro-choice states because they would not be affected by a hands-off federal government. They simply need to finish reading the articles. Paul considers individual states to be the arena for the abortion battle. Again, if mentioned in the lead, his position needs to be clear enough for readers to dissociate him from the neocons who wish to prohibit abortion to all states - regardless of the tenth amendment. JLMadrigal 11:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
After trying to keep up with the back and forth over this, I'm feeling some nostalgia for this earlier attempt at a compromise:
Paul describes himself as "an unshakable foe of abortion"[9] and opposes capital punishment, stating that the individual states must be allowed to decide such issues in accordance with the 10th amendment.[10]
I think it captures his stance on abortion fairly well because it communicates both a Constitutionalist and moral basis for Paul's opposition to abortion. Both of those things are present in pretty much every statement Paul makes on abortion, as far as I can tell.
So remind me: What was wrong with this again? -- Proper tea is theft 14:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok: I've gone over the article again, and tried a different approach to some of it that I hope will satisfy some of the concerns about making the political positions section too focused on abortion. Essentially what I did is pull out the Sanctity of Life and We the People Acts and moved them both to Legislation where they more properly belong, with only a footnote reference to them in the Political positions section. I reinstated "pro-life" in the lede which I think is essential, and also moved "states rights" up to be next to it. (Pro-life is first in that list only because of the syntax of the sentence - can't say "he supports pro-life" and this seems the shortest, simplest way to go. I don't object to that sentence being rearranged so pro-life isn't first, as long as it doesn't get unwieldy.) I reworked the pro-life portion of political positions to consolidate the points made there that were redundant, and to cast it in what I believe is a fair and accurate way - as I discussed above, and as Jogurney concurred, there is really no question about his pro-life convictions. He has been upfront and clear about them, with multiple reasons for his reaching his conclusions. It is incorrect to imply that his anti-abortion stance is based on his also heartfelt belief in states rights - that is ignoring the forest for the trees. His pro-life beliefs are just that, and his method of addressing the problem, as Proper tea points out, is to get the Federal government out of it. I believe, however, that the two bills (SoL and WTP - especially SoL) go quite a bit farther than just supporting states rights, and I am not willing to agree that his position is just in support of the 10th amendment. So I've tried to skirt that debate by stating what we know to be actual facts, supported by citations - his own statements and the bills he has submitted. And I tried to be mindful of the concern that the section not be weighted too much toward the abortion issue, but I think it is not realistic to say that it's just one more issue. It is one of the major issues of our day, and the end result of what appears to be Paul's position (true about many of his positions, in fact) would certainly change the course of events and social policy in this country. Whether you agree with him or not, these are issues that people will come here to look for information on, and we have to try to objectively present his positions and his actions and let readers conclude what they will. Campaign spins are irrelevant and the pretzel-twisting doesn't work - on either side of the issues. I hope this re-working will allow us to move along to the next thing. Tvoz | talk 20:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Whatever happened to summarizing? This belongs on the political position article. If you want a full paragraph on abortion there should be a full paragraph on every single major political issue. This section is undue weight and should be thinned and merged into one of the other paragraphs. Easy and clear example of undue weight. Turtlescrubber 03:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE refers to the quality of individual sources, not weight in the sense of how much text is devoted to a topic. Given Turtlescrubber's recent edits, I strongly suggest that he familiarize himself with
WP:POINT as well. The insertion of the pro-life "nuance" is discussed at length above. I would be happy to say only that he is opposed to abortion, but others insist that we qualify that with his states' rights position which is not consistent with his congressional votes or legislation. ←
BenB4 03:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that JLMadrigal is the only one at this point who would be unsatisfied with simply saying he is opposed to abortion or pro-life. ←
BenB4 03:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I do actually think the paragraph should be included to explain the position rather than only saying "he is against abortion," which seems cut-and-dried but does not separate him from most pro-life politicians, who wish to abolish it at the federal level. I listened to the radio interview posted above by user Operation Spooner, and Paul reiterated that he did not want to abolish abortion at the federal level and wanted to leave it to states. Here's a transcript of the exchange.-- Gloriamarie 05:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
"Liberals too often don't give us freedom of choice in economic policy, and I give freedom of choice and everything else for women on economic policy, which is half of everything you do in life. But, this idea about whether you can kill an unborn child or not has to do with the definition of life, as an OB doctor let me guarantee you, there's a lot of legal ramifications about the eight- or nine-pound baby right before birth, if I do harm, I get sued, if you're in a car accident and kill that fetus, you're liable. If somebody's involved in violence, you get arrested for murder. And the legal life begins at conception because of inheritance rights, so it's a very difficult problem at times. Most people don't like the idea of dumping babies in a basket that weigh five pounds, and at the same time, because of the difficulty, once again, I think this is best handled at the state level and not have a federal mandate that either abolishes it completely and totally or legalizes it completely and totally, I mean this whole idea that a federal court could come in and deal with a very, very difficult issue and draw up medical criteria for the first, second and third trimester is absolutely bizarre. So I would say that this is difficult, there are certain circumstances that are difficult, that local people ought to have laws, they deal all the time in other examples of violence, first- and second-degree murder and
manslaughter and all kinds of different things, that different states sort these things out. To me, it has nothing to do with choice, it has to do with whether life exists. If that life...or.."
Host:"What about a zygote?"
Paul: "That's where the difficulty is, and I think the definitions become complex, and therefore you don't want one answer for every single person, but you know these people who want to promote the abortion talk about zygotes and they forget that one minute before birth they're willing to say that that baby has no life, no rights to life, but you know if a baby's born, one minute later if the teenager throws it away, do you think she should be charged with murder or a crime if she can throw her child away?"
:Host:"In the same way, getting to the position you take on cross burning, which oddly enough I happen to agree with, burning a cross I suppose on your own property, as long as you're not in violation of some local fire-abatement standards is probably legal, but burning it on somebody else's property is a violation of that person's rights, and I would make that same distinction for the person who drove into the car of the pregnant woman."
:Paul:"Well yeah, a crime is.. an act of violence has been committed, the fire example could be used as far as flag burning too, you know. You don't have a Constitutional amendment to ban flag burning and cross burning, and of course that has... you lose all respect for the concept of freedom of expression, so that's why- you know this idea that we resort to the federal courts and the federal Congress to solve these difficult problems is just not the proper way as far as I'm concerned. If you want it that way and everybody agrees with you, change the Constitution and set up a monolithic government, and then, uh, if conservatives get in charge then you're faced with the conservatives who are in charge at the national level, if the liberals in charge, then the conservatives fight about it, but I just think the republican form of government, where there's local government, is much better, let individuals solve most of these problems that come up in our lives."
JLMAdrigal - sorry, but can you read? He is not pro-life in the "broad" sense, and he'd be the first to tell you that. He is pro-life in every sense. He is clear about it. He doesn't waffle about it. You and I may or may not agree with him - not that it is relevant either way - but I can't stand by and watch you twist his clear position into something that you either find more acceptable or you think others will. This is not a campaign piece - it is a biography. He is pro-life. Those are his beliefs. The way he wants to get the rest of the country in line with that core belief takes several tacks - one of which is proposing a law that defines life as beginning at conception. Please explain to me how this was not explained in my edit. I agree that part of his position is to make this the states' responsiblities but the SoL Act and any comstitutional amenment outloawing abortion would put a damper on that I would say. The latest version of the footnote works for me. I might even agree with your wording, but not with "in the broad sense" - and frankly I think it is making his clear statement of his convictions murky and convoluted. Tvoz | talk 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Should we not include his opposition to Federally-funded stem cell research? The political positions article is vague, only talking about how he characterizes the two sides of the issue, but not stating his position on the subject. This is disingenuous, and leaving it out here is as well. Tvoz | talk 23:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The section here is supposed to be a summary of Political positions of Ron Paul; I would add it there first and then come back to discuss it here. This does mention that he votes against most federal funding. The political positions section in this article has gotten way out of hand with going into minutiae. For comparison, John Edwards does not mention stem cell research at all, and is less than half the size of this section. Barack Obama doesn't have a political positions section, and stem cell research is only mentioned by saying that he and Alan Keyes had opposing views, but not saying what those are. Mitt Romney's does mention it, but he has made a big deal about that and his subsequent conversion to pro-life positions in his campaign. If his position is not stated correctly in the other article, please fix it.-- Gloriamarie 00:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have an idea for how to help the six-paragraph Positions section get back into more of a summary of the forty-three section Positions article. It starts with ex and ends with pand. ←
BenB4 02:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Gloriamarie - note that I said "some way they epitomize his positions" - WtP pretty clearly explains his point of view and he introduced it three times to my knowledge, so I think he thinks so too. Lots of bills don't get out of committee, but that doesn't make them unnotable. Tvoz | talk 03:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, that lasted five days. ←
BenB4 16:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, we didn't exactly have a source saying it, but it seemed better than an straightforward statement implying that he never voted or introduced legislation or an amendment at the federal level. ←
BenB4 14:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"His [i.e. Paul's] pro-life and states' rights positions are intertwined." What does this even mean? "Intertwined" according to whom? This is just bad writing, it has no sources to back it up (never mind explain). I think that if someone were to come to this article, not knowing anything about Paul, and they were to read this sentence, it would make no sense to them at all. Photouploaded 02:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the intertwining comment is perfect and needs to be left alone. Photoupload, I suggest you read the whole article before barging in and trying to rewrite everything. Better yet, just stick to uploading photos. 80.74.247.74 09:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Well now it's worse. The article states that he says they are intertwined, but that word does not appear in
http://www.teamliberty.net/id447.html -- the given source. ←
BenB4 15:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Boiling down Paul's pro-life viewpoint to half a sentence effectively sanitizes his stance. The mantle of "states' rights" is certainly convenient when it comes to the Sanctity of Life Act, which if passed would have effectively rendered Roe v. Wade null and void. How is it appropriate to only mention his pro-life views in terms of his states' rights views? In my opinion his personal pro-life stance is an entity of its own, and it should be reflected as such in the lede. Photouploaded 22:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Abortion is a top-tier ethical issue, and Paul's position should be reflected clearly in the lede. I propose adding the following to the lede:
Paul describes himself as " pro-life"; {1} {2} he believes that "life begins at conception", {3} and he introduced the Sanctity of Life Act of 2005.
What are your thoughts on this? Photouploaded 12:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
the wikipedia article states that ron paul supports state control over abortion "unless" the Constitution is amended. the present powers that be are not likely to amend the Constitution to outlaw abortion,so the next best thing is to allow the individual states to decide and keep abortion out of the United States Constitution altogether. this is not a compromise. what can ron paul do about this? he cannot make a decree outlawing abortions.
ron pauls campaign website, ronpaul2008.com lists his view on abortion as such:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.72.98.26 ( talk) 05:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
In a previous version, the article section titled Political positions had one sentence on Paul's pro-life views, followed by a ref containing an entire paragraph of information on Paul's pro-life views. This strikes me as an improper use of the references section. If there is so much information on his pro-life viewpoint, it should be incorporated into the article at the discretion of the editors. It should not buried in the References section. If the entire article were written like this, the References section would be large and unwieldy. I have since moved the info from this large, bulky reference into the article, and requested citations where they seem to be missing.
Of particular interest is the phrase, "Paul believes that Paul believes that, for the most part, regulation must be handled at the state level, until and unless the Constitution is amended." What is the exception to this belief, that requires stating "for the most part"? Can we get a ref for the part about the Constitution? Thanks. Photouploaded 12:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Since this has now been moved so high up on the page, probably no one will see it to be able to respond. For a history on the footnotes section, take a look above at previous discussions; that was a compromise on user Tvoz's part.-- Gloriamarie 16:35, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Let me first applaud Tvoz for moving the two acts to Legislation as that has apparently defused a lot of the issue. Reading the whole of the above sections (apologies if my combining them confused anyone) and comparing against unresolved issues in the current article, I get these, with some overlap:
I think it will inform consensus edits and answer these questions if we remember that Paul believes his position consistent and if we attempt to determine that position. We have "I am strongly pro-life"; yet his website downplays "talk about being pro-life" in favor of actually acting to protect the unborn, which implies that the label itself has been misused. So there IS some kind of nuance necessary (5). Then on the other hand "this is best handled at the state level and not have a federal mandate", while he clearly regards PBABA, SOLA, WTPA, and the Pro-Life Amendment as permissible exceptions to state jurisdiction. One might argue a contradiction: PBABA presumably infringes the state's "right" to permit PBAs; and SOLA and the Amendment, its "right" to exempt killing of fetuses from murder laws. (WTPA, however, returns the right to the state to make its own decisions about "abortion rights".)
Please review "Freedom Under Siege" where Paul explains the paradox that one can't "legislate morality" yet all law is founded in moral principle. His resolution is that legislators should NOT impose minority morality (e.g. persnickety regulations over porn) but MUST impose broad-consensus morality (e.g. banning murder). Thus PBABA harmonizes, because he believes Congress by medical fact-finding (PBA is never necessary for maternal health), and USSC in Gonzalez v Carhart, have established that PBA is evil enough and widely objectionable enough to ban federally. Roe v Wade, however, is considered an overreach of a lobbyist minority's morality (7). (BTW, fact-finding is NOT law; only the statutes, not the preambles and resolutions, are law: Constitution Article 6.) His support of PBABA is thus wholly pro-life and can be disconnected from states' rights, because it doesn't abridge Roe's "abortion rights" (1).
SOLA and the Amendment seek to define personhood to protect the unborn. But he also admits "you don't want one answer for every single person" when the debate moves to zygotes: states' rights kick in. He cites liability for fetal death by accident or violence or abortion all in the same breath, and then rejects "a federal mandate that either abolishes it completely and totally or legalizes it completely and totally". If these 2 laws were to say abortion is always murder, then they would abolish abortion completely: since he thinks they don't, they must be readable as saying abortion is not always murder (or else we are leaving NPOV and accusing him of a contradiction). Well, the fact is (IIRC, IANAL) that laws defining murder rely on the then-existing definition of "person" and are not automatically changed when personhood is broadened. Rather, the states must make new law in light of the newly-existing legal or Constitutional definition, which law might then define fetal death as manslaughter in some cases and accidental in others. Ben's two cites that misequate personhood law with "abortion being murder" (and both relate to state not federal law!) quote a pro-lifer, who has personal interest in advancing the equation, and a PP leader, whose statement is too full of "could"s to be meaningful (and the link was bad too). The second article even admits admits the law "does not address criminal penalties", and neither does Paul's legislation. So in sum, the laws do NOT link abortion to murder as they stand (9). They also do not dictate how states will afterward legislate what constitutes murder in light thereof, and therefore do not infringe states' rights either to permit or to restrain abortion (4).
Proceeding from there I can conclude also: Paul's personal statements about abortion being murder inform, but do not enter into, his legislation (2); Paul's bills are properly placed in Legislation, but the two paragraphs can be combined without loss (3); Paul supports the Constitution with whatever amendments it has at any moment, and its amendments are taken as mutually noncontradictory (i.e., as amended, the states would have rights to determine how to handle criminally the deemed personhood of the preborn) (6); each of his proposals does restrict federal power (i.e., its power to enforce "abortion rights") (8); and the nuance need not be so strong as "linked" or "intertwined" (though I like those) because there is a separability (13).
To side issues I add: If he has some sourceable record of favoring capital punishment in some way, put that in the Political Positions article (10); same disposition for any sourced description of his opposing new criminalization of abortion-related activities (although they might appear in this article's summary with another sourced compromise disclaimer, viz., "Paul also votes against many new federal crime laws, such as ...") (11); and the current SOLA text makes enough passing implication to Paul's opposition to killing fetuses for stem cell research to be sufficient (12).
Finally, the abortion paragraph as footnote seems to say the same thing 6 times (he is pro-life). The SOLA reference can be dropped or minimized because already present; others can be combined. Since I already advocated joining the "federal regulation of marriage" clause in with the abortion issue, I think they can remain their own paragraph as such (14), and the "don't ask don't tell" sentence fits better there than in paragraph 1 as well.
I also have two nitpicks of my own: SOLA "negates", not "overturns", Roe ("overturns" is technical); and it outlaws "new" fetal stem cell research (research with existing cell lines is permitted). So here we go:
Now take your best shot! John J. Bulten 21:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to go through the rest of the talk page with my comments though first, and then proceed to make the changes as well as improvements in grammar, style, wordiness, etc. John J. Bulten 14:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need an entire section devoted to his Internet popularity (especially since this is a subset of his campaign article)? Yes, I agree his popularlity is notable, but an entire section? And the section essentially follows this format: Paul is popular on website A. Paul is also popular on website B. Furthermore, Paul is popular on website C. Additionally, Paul is popular on website D. Can't this be summarized in a single paragraph-- Daveswagon 06:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
...I took out a couple things like how many MySpace friends he has. To be blunt, we don't care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.201.56.15 ( talk) 22:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
To be blunt, in a section called "Internet Popularity," that may very well be relevant.-- Gloriamarie 07:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me from a limited check that his internet popularity is due to his following among the neo-nazi right (eg www. stormfront.org[www.stormfront.org]) and from the hits generated by the many people (myself included) who checked out who this apparently dangerous neo-facist was having seen him on these dangerous sites. I have no doubt that he is neither a serious threat or a serious election candidate and as such his apparent internet popularity is irrelevant.-- Gramscis cousin 17:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Why was the summary of the legislation Paul has introduced and the list of agencies he has said he would abolish removed from the political positions section? ←
BenB4 00:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
"For decades, the U.S. healthcare system was the envy of the entire world. Not coincidentally, there was far less government involvement in medicine during this time. America had the finest doctors and hospitals, patients enjoyed high-quality, affordable medical care, and thousands of private charities provided health services for the poor. Doctors focused on treating patients, without the red tape and threat of lawsuits that plague the profession today. Most Americans paid cash for basic services, and had insurance only for major illnesses and accidents. This meant both doctors and patients had an incentive to keep costs down, as the patient was directly responsible for payment, rather than an HMO or government program."
I note that the revision contains "He supports revising the military 'don't ask, don't tell' policy to expel members with heterosexual as well as homosexual behavior issues," which is absolutely not supported by the cited source. And "Paul votes against most federal spending," for which there is no source even though one was requested months ago. ←
BenB4 06:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
(back left) I'm not sure you understand that there already is a penalty for any type of sexual behavior. The DADT penalty is not for orientation, it is for saying that one has a homosexual orientation. He has called that "decent" and said that when he was an employer, he never asked about orientation and didn't want to be told. The only context where he has talked about a lesser penalty was the expulsion of Arabist translators under DADT, where he said expulsion is too harsh. Saying that he wants penalties for any kind of sexual behavior is like saying he wants wetness for water. ←
BenB4 06:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a problem in the sentence, 'Paul opposes the draft, the federal War on Drugs, socialized health care,[145] the welfare state (or nanny state),[148] foreign aid, judicial activism, federal death penalties,[149] and federal regulation of marriage, education,[150] and the Internet.[151]' Ron Paul does NOT oppose the internet, that doesn't even make sense. He does indeed oppose federal regulation of the Internet which is what this wikipedia article said in the past and which is what the cited source is suggesting. Someone please change this! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Justinflowers (
talk •
contribs) 00:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems a poll conducted by a company called InsiderAdvantage which was conducted around 2 days ago places Paul at around 6 percent in new hampshire, but in the absense of a Wikipedia article on these pollsters, I wasn't sure of the notability, or if it should be included at all. Here's the cite web stuff and a sample sentence: By the beginning of October, an InsiderAdvantage poll placed him at 6 percent.<ref>{{cite web | url= http://www.pollster.com/blogs/poll_insideradvantage_republic.php | last= Dienstfrey | first = Eric | publisher = InsiderAdvantage | title = POLL: InsiderAdvantage Republican Primaries in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Florida, and Michigan | date = 2007-10-4 | accessdate = 2007-10-4}}</ref> Homestarmy 01:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to explain the recent change that I made to the biographical info on Ron Paul's family. I removed the info on Paul's paternal grandfather, referring to him as a "German Lutheran". While I believe this info to be correct, I felt that it was poorly cited. If anyone wants to add it again with better citation, feel free.
I also changed the phrase which suggested that Ron Paul was born to Margaret "Peggy" Dumont. The listing of "Peggy" as a nickname may be accurate, but was not found in the sources. However, by the time of Paul's birth, his mother's name was not "Margaret Dumont," but "Margaret Paul". Using her maiden name in this context is akin to saying that "Cassius Clay fought his last bout in 1981" rather than "Muhammed Ali."
This is a widespread error in Wikipedia biographies, possibly due to the fact that genealogical tables (such as the one cited in this article) are concerned with recording births, and often do not note later name changes. However, biographical references to a subject's mother should generally use her married name, unless of course she retained (or is widely known by) her maiden name. Please see the Manual of Style section on maiden names for more on this. Lnh27 02:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the RFC is no longer needed. Eiler7 18:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Reviewing the talk archive as 1of3 recommends, I note there was some good previous consensus for footnoting the racist comments themselves. It appeared the scale tipped toward keeping them in the body, but now that I added the white/Asian/Israeli comments (to demonstrate it was multi-racism) and someone else added the LA riot/terror comment, it may be wise to reconsider. Seems like "For instance" can introduce two clauses, and the rest would be appropriate in the footnote. With that, it's even possible to make it one paragraph, move it to under the 1996 campaign, and break the long "Campaigns" section into "1996 campaign and controversy" and "Campaigns as incumbent". The controversy only arose in the 96 campaign and was not significantly reaired afterward until the 01 interview. It's also the shortest section except for military/medical (which could easily be combined into "Family and medical career"). Thoughts please? John J. Bulten 21:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought it might be interesting to mention that Ron Paul, Jr. was the Texas high school 100 yard butterfly champion and later was on the University of Texas swim. 74.130.104.62 23:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Bruce Sanders, October 8, 2007
The Medical and Military Career section isn't very long even though it combines both aspects. Should the paragraph documenting his medical school/residency be moved to the Medical Career section rather than Early life/Education? I think it would be more appropriate there, especially considering the difference in length between those two sections. The Early Life one is pretty long in its current state.-- Gloriamarie 04:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know if the button in this article is an offical campaign button (i.e., would it count as fair use of an item meant for publicity for appearance in this article)? It would definitely add a nice element to the Campaigns section under Early Congressional Career.-- Gloriamarie 04:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I remember a discussion that took place over whether Ron Paul is Episcopalian or Baptist; the New York Times said Episcopalian, I believe, and now NPR does too, but this article was changed at one point to say Baptist.-- Gloriamarie 04:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Should YouTube stats really be in the lead? I mean, the "What the Buck" guy has almost twice as many subscribers.
1of3 16:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The introduction has turned into a resumé. It seriously needs to be trimmed. An introduction should be short and precise. You can write his resumé later in the article text. Carewolf 16:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The intro is a bit too long for my taste, but the article has gone through a Good Article review with nothing being said about the intro being too long. I think it's an appropriate length for a pretty long article.-- Gloriamarie 20:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Ben, I must disagree on the "factual" nature of your view that "there isn't enough gold and silver mined out of the ground to back the money circulating". If perhaps you mean that the value of precious metals in dollars is markedly less than the total number of circulating dollars, that is a fact, and is no more relevant than the fact that the value of dollars is markedly less than the total number of dollars in bank accounts (cough cough). If silver became a standard again and gold were market-driven, supply and demand would shortly regulate their value better than any Fed-up chairman can. This happened repeatedly in the colonies whenever fiat money was rejected, as Ed Griffin observes in Creature from Jekyll Island. If you do not understand the reasonableness of this view, I would still ask you to refrain from judging its acceptability for the lead, because Paul and many others find it perfectly reasonable. I think adding "hard money" back to the lead is sufficient. John J. Bulten 16:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Goals: Lead should be reasonably streamlined (as others agree); political positions summary should summarize (I had synchronized the lead of the positions article to match the summary in the main article plus two sentences from the main lead, and hope to keep them synchronized); it and its own summary should follow the subarticle's outline (foreign policy; economic policy; social/liberty policy); and concerns of individual editors should be addressed. Given that, here’s some rationales to my largely restoring some changes (and thanks to those who have otherwise upheld them). Please object at will.
Delete “10th-term” from lead: much as I like it, it’s implicit in the later breakdown in this graf, and technically it’s also dated.
Delete UN and NATO withdrawal from lead: currently they are in the positions summary and subarticle lead but NOT anywhere in the subarticle! Must not be important enough for the main lead, then, eh? Sometime I will repeat the summary sentence in the subarticle somewhere.
Delete Patriot Act from lead: Similarly, when I first synched, Patriot Act was in main lead but not in either the positions summary or the subarticle lead. I moved it from main lead to both of those.
Delete never unbalancing budget: exactly same case as Patriot Act.
Subsume "smaller government" into "reduced government spending".
Subsume "sharply lower taxes" into "abolition of federal income tax".
Subsume "abolition of the IRS" into "abolish most federal agencies" with IRS-specific link.
Delete "opposes illegal immigration" as redundant. (Who doesn't oppose illegality?) The intent is carried mostly by my import "opposed amnesty for illegal aliens".
Tighten the pro-life in lead again: it had gotten way too overworked. Instead of "ties" this time I just used "Paul calls himself 'strongly pro-life' while also advocating states' rights." Have fun!
Upgrade some items into main lead that were present in one or both summaries and extended in subarticle. However it looks to me like the main lead's positions graf in both my versions is both briefer and better-packed than the supposedly shorter, clearer version someone else reverted to. (I might also add that such reversion restores many unnecessarily poor footnote styles. I might also add that reverting to some version of the problematic "can't break 4%" in the lead is both a misleading implication and, again, potentially dated; the current version "polls lower" with national and statewide links is fine.) John J. Bulten 06:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
1of, thank you for restoring some of the changes. I have restored several more, but only where I can defend them as being noncontroversial (mechanical) or new (nonconsensus). That means that my remaining recommendations are:
(Subarticle's recommended order: nonintervention, Iraq, borders (+), amnesty (+), free-trade, NAFTA (+), taxes, income, reducing, agencies-IRS, hard-money (+), Fed (+), draft (+), habeas-corpus (+), drugs, guns, judges (+), pro-life, states'-rights. Your current "consensus" order: free-trade, taxes-1, reducing-1, nonintervention, NATO (-), UN (-), Iraq, Patriot (-), reducing-2, taxes-2, budget (-), agencies-IRS-1, income, immigration (-), guns, drugs, agencies-IRS-2, pro-life, states'-rights.) OK, now you can tell me what on the above list you still disagree with (providing more documentation than you have so far). Thanks again for working the issue so far. John J. Bulten 23:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
As a newbie I have probably been overusing footnotes in response to demands for proof; others may have also. In general I strive to be lossless so frequently I retain too much info. Wanted to let everyone know I intend this weekend to trim back many of these, spurred on by FA candidacy. Particularly, (1) something footnoted both in the lead and in similar text in the article can be cited only in the second case; (2) of two footnotes that make the exact same point, the less useful can be dropped; (3) of multiple footnotes from the same point in the text, some can be redistributed; (4) dead or unhelpful links can be dropped or replaced. On the other hand, in any case where a point has been or can be reasonably disputed, at least one strong footnote should remain. Any help or comments are welcome. John J. Bulten 22:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I will now rudely combine all the pro-life and abortion subpoints under one head. John J. Bulten 07:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
JLMadrigal says that the We the People Act would "prevent federal courts from expending funds for the purpose of interfering in state and local government decisions regarding the display of religious text and imagery, abortion, sexual practices, and same-sex marriage" instead of "would forbid federal courts from spending any money to enforce their judgments
Here's what the Act says:
I am correcting the error. ←
BenB4 13:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Why BenB4 refuses to acknowledge Paul's position of the States as the center of the abortion issue is beyond me. Paul's position is abundantly clear. Please keep the reference to the 10th amendment. JLMadrigal 01:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Moved by John J. Bulten 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Paul is pro-life, but, consistent with his opposition to federal power, he is in favor of allowing each state to decide whether to allow or prohibit it, instead of the federal government.
Ron Paul wants to allow each state to allow or prohibit life? I assume that "it" is supposed to refer to abortion in this context, but perhaps that could be made a bit more clear. 62.158.126.58 10:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
(Deleted RFCpol tag because of no action, and general consensus that the legislation should be included briefly whether or not it conflicts with stated positions.)
John J. Bulten 23:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
An issue has arisen as to whether the
Ron Paul#Political positions section should include a description of the legislation Paul has introduced which conflicts with some of his stated positions. Should it? ←
BenB4 07:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
First of all, you would need a reliable source stating that his legislation conflicts with some of his stated positions, or you are firmly in Original Research Land.-- Gloriamarie 07:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It is not stable and in dispute because Gloriamarie, who proudly proclaims her support for Paul on her userpage, thinks we should include what he says about himself but not the conflicting legislation he has introduced. Clearly this is headed to mediation, so I doubt it would make a good FAC. ←
BenB4 06:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
At least two other editors have agreed with me, so don't blame that on me. I'm just working to make the article better. You have likewise proudly proclaimed your non-support for Ron Paul, but I don't see what that has to do with it-- edits and whether they are 1.) neutral and well-sourced, and 2.) improve the article, are what count. Just because I'm a vegetarian doesn't mean I can't edit the article on vegetarianism, if my contributions improve the content and are neutral and well-sourced.-- Gloriamarie 06:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
It's really not a good idea to delete other users' comments on talk pages. Turtlescrubber was only telling you not to attack me; that is not a personal attack in and of itself.-- Gloriamarie 13:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I would have to agree with GloriaMarie on her entries. I don't know why everything Ben is writing has to centre around abortion, perhaps he would prefer to hang around the Abortion pages and write about useless things there instead? Gloria's version (I hope you don't mind me calling you that) of the page was a lot better than the hoo har Ben wrote. You should not be making personal attacks on other editors as this is not the place to do them, secondly your opinions are as neutral as George Bush's on the Iraq war. I am British and the pages on Ron Paul (who even I think should be president, if only I could vote!!) have taught me a lot about him and his campaign. He is the type of guy we need more of, especially here in England where political correctness and everyone's "rights" have blighted the lives of many because people are too worried about their political face to stand up for what is right. That is something Ron Paul does and Gloria has shown this in her writing over many subjects. 80.74.247.74 13:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Google hits are actually usually not a good measure of relative notability, as evidenced by a comparison of a teen idol (2,190,000 hits) vs. a two-time Nobel Prize-winning scientist who invented the transistor, came up with the BCS theory of superconductivity and changed modern life as almost everyone knows it (327,000 hits). Some things are just more likely to be mentioned on websites; that doesn't necessarily make them more notable. It only means they're more likely to be featured on a website.-- Gloriamarie 02:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
So, now there is a dispute about whether it is okay to say that Paul is pro-life without including two dozen words of rambling "nuance" about the 10th Amendment which contradict his votes and the bills he has introduced to ban abortions.
[2]
[3] I will let Dr. Paul speak for himself:
By my count, there are at least three dozen more where those came from.
If you want a constitutional amendment to overrule the 10th Amendment, then do you think you're going to go around telling people that you think the 10th Amendment should be the deciding rule on the issue? No!
It feels like
Bizarro World that this is even an issue. (Note: I did remove the pro-life mention from the first paragraph -- and I wasn't the one who put it there -- as it should occur with his positions.) ←
BenB4 18:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Disagree, Gloriamarie - one purpose of the lede is to summarize things that are gone into in detail in the article. The very fact that there is a (short) paragraph about his position on abortion makes it correct to include it in the lede. I don't see at all why you conclude that it is less important than free trade which is in the lede, or that including the words "pro-life" where I did in any way is creating what you call in your edit summary "an abortion-centered laundry list" or that it makes the article "completely based on abortion" - huh? That's just ridiculous. I think it is necessary to include pro-life along with the other stands he has taken on the major issues of our times, and in fact his stand on abortion is unusual and therefore notable. Sorry, GLoriamarie, but I really disagree with you on this one, and the fact that you've compromised on it isn't really a compelling argument to me. Tvoz | talk 00:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
You have excellent points and argue them well. I guess context is needed. To explain about the discussion that has been going on, abortion was put in the lead many times, by itself, with no explanation with the quote that Paul was an "unshakeable foe" of abortion. Some editors thought this gave a misleading impression on his position, and user JLMadrigal would insert a sentence or two about how Paul was pro-life but according to the 10th Amendment didn't believe in federal intervention in the process. BenB4 would then put in additional sentences on specific legislation, which amounted to an entire paragraph in the opening on abortion, which was not appropriate. At that time, the political positions section had two full paragraphs on abortion, a half of another paragraph, and a mention in another paragraph! As a compromise, I moved the paragraph which appeared in the opening to the Political Positions section and removed it from the opening, because both sides cannot agree on what to say about it, except at length. When I called it an "abortion-centered laundry list," I was referring to the mentions in four paragraphs of BenB4's version of the Political positions section. I did not mean your edit at all.-- Gloriamarie 01:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The "unshakable foe of abortion" quote comes from Paul's own campaign web site.
[12] ←
BenB4 02:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tvoz that Paul's position on abortion appears to be less nuanced than some of his other positions. It does seem that he typically votes on measures that limit federal involvement in abortion/privacy matters on the basis that it is a matter for the states to decide, but his personal position is clearly pro-life. Accordingly, I don't understand why it is a problem to indicate that Paul is pro-life within the summary. Jogurney 03:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Since I have been invited by BenB4 to reenter this never-ending debate, I will give it another shot. Sure Paul is pro-life. He is also anti-federal. The two define his position and cannot be separated. If his position on abortion is mentioned in the lead it must be qualified. BenB4 wishes to simply label him as anti-abortion in the hopes of turning away pro-choice voters across the board. But Paul would have potential pro-choice support in pro-choice states because they would not be affected by a hands-off federal government. They simply need to finish reading the articles. Paul considers individual states to be the arena for the abortion battle. Again, if mentioned in the lead, his position needs to be clear enough for readers to dissociate him from the neocons who wish to prohibit abortion to all states - regardless of the tenth amendment. JLMadrigal 11:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
After trying to keep up with the back and forth over this, I'm feeling some nostalgia for this earlier attempt at a compromise:
Paul describes himself as "an unshakable foe of abortion"[9] and opposes capital punishment, stating that the individual states must be allowed to decide such issues in accordance with the 10th amendment.[10]
I think it captures his stance on abortion fairly well because it communicates both a Constitutionalist and moral basis for Paul's opposition to abortion. Both of those things are present in pretty much every statement Paul makes on abortion, as far as I can tell.
So remind me: What was wrong with this again? -- Proper tea is theft 14:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok: I've gone over the article again, and tried a different approach to some of it that I hope will satisfy some of the concerns about making the political positions section too focused on abortion. Essentially what I did is pull out the Sanctity of Life and We the People Acts and moved them both to Legislation where they more properly belong, with only a footnote reference to them in the Political positions section. I reinstated "pro-life" in the lede which I think is essential, and also moved "states rights" up to be next to it. (Pro-life is first in that list only because of the syntax of the sentence - can't say "he supports pro-life" and this seems the shortest, simplest way to go. I don't object to that sentence being rearranged so pro-life isn't first, as long as it doesn't get unwieldy.) I reworked the pro-life portion of political positions to consolidate the points made there that were redundant, and to cast it in what I believe is a fair and accurate way - as I discussed above, and as Jogurney concurred, there is really no question about his pro-life convictions. He has been upfront and clear about them, with multiple reasons for his reaching his conclusions. It is incorrect to imply that his anti-abortion stance is based on his also heartfelt belief in states rights - that is ignoring the forest for the trees. His pro-life beliefs are just that, and his method of addressing the problem, as Proper tea points out, is to get the Federal government out of it. I believe, however, that the two bills (SoL and WTP - especially SoL) go quite a bit farther than just supporting states rights, and I am not willing to agree that his position is just in support of the 10th amendment. So I've tried to skirt that debate by stating what we know to be actual facts, supported by citations - his own statements and the bills he has submitted. And I tried to be mindful of the concern that the section not be weighted too much toward the abortion issue, but I think it is not realistic to say that it's just one more issue. It is one of the major issues of our day, and the end result of what appears to be Paul's position (true about many of his positions, in fact) would certainly change the course of events and social policy in this country. Whether you agree with him or not, these are issues that people will come here to look for information on, and we have to try to objectively present his positions and his actions and let readers conclude what they will. Campaign spins are irrelevant and the pretzel-twisting doesn't work - on either side of the issues. I hope this re-working will allow us to move along to the next thing. Tvoz | talk 20:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Whatever happened to summarizing? This belongs on the political position article. If you want a full paragraph on abortion there should be a full paragraph on every single major political issue. This section is undue weight and should be thinned and merged into one of the other paragraphs. Easy and clear example of undue weight. Turtlescrubber 03:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE refers to the quality of individual sources, not weight in the sense of how much text is devoted to a topic. Given Turtlescrubber's recent edits, I strongly suggest that he familiarize himself with
WP:POINT as well. The insertion of the pro-life "nuance" is discussed at length above. I would be happy to say only that he is opposed to abortion, but others insist that we qualify that with his states' rights position which is not consistent with his congressional votes or legislation. ←
BenB4 03:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that JLMadrigal is the only one at this point who would be unsatisfied with simply saying he is opposed to abortion or pro-life. ←
BenB4 03:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I do actually think the paragraph should be included to explain the position rather than only saying "he is against abortion," which seems cut-and-dried but does not separate him from most pro-life politicians, who wish to abolish it at the federal level. I listened to the radio interview posted above by user Operation Spooner, and Paul reiterated that he did not want to abolish abortion at the federal level and wanted to leave it to states. Here's a transcript of the exchange.-- Gloriamarie 05:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
"Liberals too often don't give us freedom of choice in economic policy, and I give freedom of choice and everything else for women on economic policy, which is half of everything you do in life. But, this idea about whether you can kill an unborn child or not has to do with the definition of life, as an OB doctor let me guarantee you, there's a lot of legal ramifications about the eight- or nine-pound baby right before birth, if I do harm, I get sued, if you're in a car accident and kill that fetus, you're liable. If somebody's involved in violence, you get arrested for murder. And the legal life begins at conception because of inheritance rights, so it's a very difficult problem at times. Most people don't like the idea of dumping babies in a basket that weigh five pounds, and at the same time, because of the difficulty, once again, I think this is best handled at the state level and not have a federal mandate that either abolishes it completely and totally or legalizes it completely and totally, I mean this whole idea that a federal court could come in and deal with a very, very difficult issue and draw up medical criteria for the first, second and third trimester is absolutely bizarre. So I would say that this is difficult, there are certain circumstances that are difficult, that local people ought to have laws, they deal all the time in other examples of violence, first- and second-degree murder and
manslaughter and all kinds of different things, that different states sort these things out. To me, it has nothing to do with choice, it has to do with whether life exists. If that life...or.."
Host:"What about a zygote?"
Paul: "That's where the difficulty is, and I think the definitions become complex, and therefore you don't want one answer for every single person, but you know these people who want to promote the abortion talk about zygotes and they forget that one minute before birth they're willing to say that that baby has no life, no rights to life, but you know if a baby's born, one minute later if the teenager throws it away, do you think she should be charged with murder or a crime if she can throw her child away?"
:Host:"In the same way, getting to the position you take on cross burning, which oddly enough I happen to agree with, burning a cross I suppose on your own property, as long as you're not in violation of some local fire-abatement standards is probably legal, but burning it on somebody else's property is a violation of that person's rights, and I would make that same distinction for the person who drove into the car of the pregnant woman."
:Paul:"Well yeah, a crime is.. an act of violence has been committed, the fire example could be used as far as flag burning too, you know. You don't have a Constitutional amendment to ban flag burning and cross burning, and of course that has... you lose all respect for the concept of freedom of expression, so that's why- you know this idea that we resort to the federal courts and the federal Congress to solve these difficult problems is just not the proper way as far as I'm concerned. If you want it that way and everybody agrees with you, change the Constitution and set up a monolithic government, and then, uh, if conservatives get in charge then you're faced with the conservatives who are in charge at the national level, if the liberals in charge, then the conservatives fight about it, but I just think the republican form of government, where there's local government, is much better, let individuals solve most of these problems that come up in our lives."
JLMAdrigal - sorry, but can you read? He is not pro-life in the "broad" sense, and he'd be the first to tell you that. He is pro-life in every sense. He is clear about it. He doesn't waffle about it. You and I may or may not agree with him - not that it is relevant either way - but I can't stand by and watch you twist his clear position into something that you either find more acceptable or you think others will. This is not a campaign piece - it is a biography. He is pro-life. Those are his beliefs. The way he wants to get the rest of the country in line with that core belief takes several tacks - one of which is proposing a law that defines life as beginning at conception. Please explain to me how this was not explained in my edit. I agree that part of his position is to make this the states' responsiblities but the SoL Act and any comstitutional amenment outloawing abortion would put a damper on that I would say. The latest version of the footnote works for me. I might even agree with your wording, but not with "in the broad sense" - and frankly I think it is making his clear statement of his convictions murky and convoluted. Tvoz | talk 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Should we not include his opposition to Federally-funded stem cell research? The political positions article is vague, only talking about how he characterizes the two sides of the issue, but not stating his position on the subject. This is disingenuous, and leaving it out here is as well. Tvoz | talk 23:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The section here is supposed to be a summary of Political positions of Ron Paul; I would add it there first and then come back to discuss it here. This does mention that he votes against most federal funding. The political positions section in this article has gotten way out of hand with going into minutiae. For comparison, John Edwards does not mention stem cell research at all, and is less than half the size of this section. Barack Obama doesn't have a political positions section, and stem cell research is only mentioned by saying that he and Alan Keyes had opposing views, but not saying what those are. Mitt Romney's does mention it, but he has made a big deal about that and his subsequent conversion to pro-life positions in his campaign. If his position is not stated correctly in the other article, please fix it.-- Gloriamarie 00:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have an idea for how to help the six-paragraph Positions section get back into more of a summary of the forty-three section Positions article. It starts with ex and ends with pand. ←
BenB4 02:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Gloriamarie - note that I said "some way they epitomize his positions" - WtP pretty clearly explains his point of view and he introduced it three times to my knowledge, so I think he thinks so too. Lots of bills don't get out of committee, but that doesn't make them unnotable. Tvoz | talk 03:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, that lasted five days. ←
BenB4 16:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, we didn't exactly have a source saying it, but it seemed better than an straightforward statement implying that he never voted or introduced legislation or an amendment at the federal level. ←
BenB4 14:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"His [i.e. Paul's] pro-life and states' rights positions are intertwined." What does this even mean? "Intertwined" according to whom? This is just bad writing, it has no sources to back it up (never mind explain). I think that if someone were to come to this article, not knowing anything about Paul, and they were to read this sentence, it would make no sense to them at all. Photouploaded 02:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the intertwining comment is perfect and needs to be left alone. Photoupload, I suggest you read the whole article before barging in and trying to rewrite everything. Better yet, just stick to uploading photos. 80.74.247.74 09:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Well now it's worse. The article states that he says they are intertwined, but that word does not appear in
http://www.teamliberty.net/id447.html -- the given source. ←
BenB4 15:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Boiling down Paul's pro-life viewpoint to half a sentence effectively sanitizes his stance. The mantle of "states' rights" is certainly convenient when it comes to the Sanctity of Life Act, which if passed would have effectively rendered Roe v. Wade null and void. How is it appropriate to only mention his pro-life views in terms of his states' rights views? In my opinion his personal pro-life stance is an entity of its own, and it should be reflected as such in the lede. Photouploaded 22:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Abortion is a top-tier ethical issue, and Paul's position should be reflected clearly in the lede. I propose adding the following to the lede:
Paul describes himself as " pro-life"; {1} {2} he believes that "life begins at conception", {3} and he introduced the Sanctity of Life Act of 2005.
What are your thoughts on this? Photouploaded 12:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
the wikipedia article states that ron paul supports state control over abortion "unless" the Constitution is amended. the present powers that be are not likely to amend the Constitution to outlaw abortion,so the next best thing is to allow the individual states to decide and keep abortion out of the United States Constitution altogether. this is not a compromise. what can ron paul do about this? he cannot make a decree outlawing abortions.
ron pauls campaign website, ronpaul2008.com lists his view on abortion as such:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.72.98.26 ( talk) 05:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
In a previous version, the article section titled Political positions had one sentence on Paul's pro-life views, followed by a ref containing an entire paragraph of information on Paul's pro-life views. This strikes me as an improper use of the references section. If there is so much information on his pro-life viewpoint, it should be incorporated into the article at the discretion of the editors. It should not buried in the References section. If the entire article were written like this, the References section would be large and unwieldy. I have since moved the info from this large, bulky reference into the article, and requested citations where they seem to be missing.
Of particular interest is the phrase, "Paul believes that Paul believes that, for the most part, regulation must be handled at the state level, until and unless the Constitution is amended." What is the exception to this belief, that requires stating "for the most part"? Can we get a ref for the part about the Constitution? Thanks. Photouploaded 12:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Since this has now been moved so high up on the page, probably no one will see it to be able to respond. For a history on the footnotes section, take a look above at previous discussions; that was a compromise on user Tvoz's part.-- Gloriamarie 16:35, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Let me first applaud Tvoz for moving the two acts to Legislation as that has apparently defused a lot of the issue. Reading the whole of the above sections (apologies if my combining them confused anyone) and comparing against unresolved issues in the current article, I get these, with some overlap:
I think it will inform consensus edits and answer these questions if we remember that Paul believes his position consistent and if we attempt to determine that position. We have "I am strongly pro-life"; yet his website downplays "talk about being pro-life" in favor of actually acting to protect the unborn, which implies that the label itself has been misused. So there IS some kind of nuance necessary (5). Then on the other hand "this is best handled at the state level and not have a federal mandate", while he clearly regards PBABA, SOLA, WTPA, and the Pro-Life Amendment as permissible exceptions to state jurisdiction. One might argue a contradiction: PBABA presumably infringes the state's "right" to permit PBAs; and SOLA and the Amendment, its "right" to exempt killing of fetuses from murder laws. (WTPA, however, returns the right to the state to make its own decisions about "abortion rights".)
Please review "Freedom Under Siege" where Paul explains the paradox that one can't "legislate morality" yet all law is founded in moral principle. His resolution is that legislators should NOT impose minority morality (e.g. persnickety regulations over porn) but MUST impose broad-consensus morality (e.g. banning murder). Thus PBABA harmonizes, because he believes Congress by medical fact-finding (PBA is never necessary for maternal health), and USSC in Gonzalez v Carhart, have established that PBA is evil enough and widely objectionable enough to ban federally. Roe v Wade, however, is considered an overreach of a lobbyist minority's morality (7). (BTW, fact-finding is NOT law; only the statutes, not the preambles and resolutions, are law: Constitution Article 6.) His support of PBABA is thus wholly pro-life and can be disconnected from states' rights, because it doesn't abridge Roe's "abortion rights" (1).
SOLA and the Amendment seek to define personhood to protect the unborn. But he also admits "you don't want one answer for every single person" when the debate moves to zygotes: states' rights kick in. He cites liability for fetal death by accident or violence or abortion all in the same breath, and then rejects "a federal mandate that either abolishes it completely and totally or legalizes it completely and totally". If these 2 laws were to say abortion is always murder, then they would abolish abortion completely: since he thinks they don't, they must be readable as saying abortion is not always murder (or else we are leaving NPOV and accusing him of a contradiction). Well, the fact is (IIRC, IANAL) that laws defining murder rely on the then-existing definition of "person" and are not automatically changed when personhood is broadened. Rather, the states must make new law in light of the newly-existing legal or Constitutional definition, which law might then define fetal death as manslaughter in some cases and accidental in others. Ben's two cites that misequate personhood law with "abortion being murder" (and both relate to state not federal law!) quote a pro-lifer, who has personal interest in advancing the equation, and a PP leader, whose statement is too full of "could"s to be meaningful (and the link was bad too). The second article even admits admits the law "does not address criminal penalties", and neither does Paul's legislation. So in sum, the laws do NOT link abortion to murder as they stand (9). They also do not dictate how states will afterward legislate what constitutes murder in light thereof, and therefore do not infringe states' rights either to permit or to restrain abortion (4).
Proceeding from there I can conclude also: Paul's personal statements about abortion being murder inform, but do not enter into, his legislation (2); Paul's bills are properly placed in Legislation, but the two paragraphs can be combined without loss (3); Paul supports the Constitution with whatever amendments it has at any moment, and its amendments are taken as mutually noncontradictory (i.e., as amended, the states would have rights to determine how to handle criminally the deemed personhood of the preborn) (6); each of his proposals does restrict federal power (i.e., its power to enforce "abortion rights") (8); and the nuance need not be so strong as "linked" or "intertwined" (though I like those) because there is a separability (13).
To side issues I add: If he has some sourceable record of favoring capital punishment in some way, put that in the Political Positions article (10); same disposition for any sourced description of his opposing new criminalization of abortion-related activities (although they might appear in this article's summary with another sourced compromise disclaimer, viz., "Paul also votes against many new federal crime laws, such as ...") (11); and the current SOLA text makes enough passing implication to Paul's opposition to killing fetuses for stem cell research to be sufficient (12).
Finally, the abortion paragraph as footnote seems to say the same thing 6 times (he is pro-life). The SOLA reference can be dropped or minimized because already present; others can be combined. Since I already advocated joining the "federal regulation of marriage" clause in with the abortion issue, I think they can remain their own paragraph as such (14), and the "don't ask don't tell" sentence fits better there than in paragraph 1 as well.
I also have two nitpicks of my own: SOLA "negates", not "overturns", Roe ("overturns" is technical); and it outlaws "new" fetal stem cell research (research with existing cell lines is permitted). So here we go:
Now take your best shot! John J. Bulten 21:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to go through the rest of the talk page with my comments though first, and then proceed to make the changes as well as improvements in grammar, style, wordiness, etc. John J. Bulten 14:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Why do we need an entire section devoted to his Internet popularity (especially since this is a subset of his campaign article)? Yes, I agree his popularlity is notable, but an entire section? And the section essentially follows this format: Paul is popular on website A. Paul is also popular on website B. Furthermore, Paul is popular on website C. Additionally, Paul is popular on website D. Can't this be summarized in a single paragraph-- Daveswagon 06:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
...I took out a couple things like how many MySpace friends he has. To be blunt, we don't care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.201.56.15 ( talk) 22:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
To be blunt, in a section called "Internet Popularity," that may very well be relevant.-- Gloriamarie 07:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me from a limited check that his internet popularity is due to his following among the neo-nazi right (eg www. stormfront.org[www.stormfront.org]) and from the hits generated by the many people (myself included) who checked out who this apparently dangerous neo-facist was having seen him on these dangerous sites. I have no doubt that he is neither a serious threat or a serious election candidate and as such his apparent internet popularity is irrelevant.-- Gramscis cousin 17:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Why was the summary of the legislation Paul has introduced and the list of agencies he has said he would abolish removed from the political positions section? ←
BenB4 00:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
"For decades, the U.S. healthcare system was the envy of the entire world. Not coincidentally, there was far less government involvement in medicine during this time. America had the finest doctors and hospitals, patients enjoyed high-quality, affordable medical care, and thousands of private charities provided health services for the poor. Doctors focused on treating patients, without the red tape and threat of lawsuits that plague the profession today. Most Americans paid cash for basic services, and had insurance only for major illnesses and accidents. This meant both doctors and patients had an incentive to keep costs down, as the patient was directly responsible for payment, rather than an HMO or government program."
I note that the revision contains "He supports revising the military 'don't ask, don't tell' policy to expel members with heterosexual as well as homosexual behavior issues," which is absolutely not supported by the cited source. And "Paul votes against most federal spending," for which there is no source even though one was requested months ago. ←
BenB4 06:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
(back left) I'm not sure you understand that there already is a penalty for any type of sexual behavior. The DADT penalty is not for orientation, it is for saying that one has a homosexual orientation. He has called that "decent" and said that when he was an employer, he never asked about orientation and didn't want to be told. The only context where he has talked about a lesser penalty was the expulsion of Arabist translators under DADT, where he said expulsion is too harsh. Saying that he wants penalties for any kind of sexual behavior is like saying he wants wetness for water. ←
BenB4 06:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a problem in the sentence, 'Paul opposes the draft, the federal War on Drugs, socialized health care,[145] the welfare state (or nanny state),[148] foreign aid, judicial activism, federal death penalties,[149] and federal regulation of marriage, education,[150] and the Internet.[151]' Ron Paul does NOT oppose the internet, that doesn't even make sense. He does indeed oppose federal regulation of the Internet which is what this wikipedia article said in the past and which is what the cited source is suggesting. Someone please change this! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Justinflowers (
talk •
contribs) 00:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems a poll conducted by a company called InsiderAdvantage which was conducted around 2 days ago places Paul at around 6 percent in new hampshire, but in the absense of a Wikipedia article on these pollsters, I wasn't sure of the notability, or if it should be included at all. Here's the cite web stuff and a sample sentence: By the beginning of October, an InsiderAdvantage poll placed him at 6 percent.<ref>{{cite web | url= http://www.pollster.com/blogs/poll_insideradvantage_republic.php | last= Dienstfrey | first = Eric | publisher = InsiderAdvantage | title = POLL: InsiderAdvantage Republican Primaries in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Florida, and Michigan | date = 2007-10-4 | accessdate = 2007-10-4}}</ref> Homestarmy 01:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to explain the recent change that I made to the biographical info on Ron Paul's family. I removed the info on Paul's paternal grandfather, referring to him as a "German Lutheran". While I believe this info to be correct, I felt that it was poorly cited. If anyone wants to add it again with better citation, feel free.
I also changed the phrase which suggested that Ron Paul was born to Margaret "Peggy" Dumont. The listing of "Peggy" as a nickname may be accurate, but was not found in the sources. However, by the time of Paul's birth, his mother's name was not "Margaret Dumont," but "Margaret Paul". Using her maiden name in this context is akin to saying that "Cassius Clay fought his last bout in 1981" rather than "Muhammed Ali."
This is a widespread error in Wikipedia biographies, possibly due to the fact that genealogical tables (such as the one cited in this article) are concerned with recording births, and often do not note later name changes. However, biographical references to a subject's mother should generally use her married name, unless of course she retained (or is widely known by) her maiden name. Please see the Manual of Style section on maiden names for more on this. Lnh27 02:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the RFC is no longer needed. Eiler7 18:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Reviewing the talk archive as 1of3 recommends, I note there was some good previous consensus for footnoting the racist comments themselves. It appeared the scale tipped toward keeping them in the body, but now that I added the white/Asian/Israeli comments (to demonstrate it was multi-racism) and someone else added the LA riot/terror comment, it may be wise to reconsider. Seems like "For instance" can introduce two clauses, and the rest would be appropriate in the footnote. With that, it's even possible to make it one paragraph, move it to under the 1996 campaign, and break the long "Campaigns" section into "1996 campaign and controversy" and "Campaigns as incumbent". The controversy only arose in the 96 campaign and was not significantly reaired afterward until the 01 interview. It's also the shortest section except for military/medical (which could easily be combined into "Family and medical career"). Thoughts please? John J. Bulten 21:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought it might be interesting to mention that Ron Paul, Jr. was the Texas high school 100 yard butterfly champion and later was on the University of Texas swim. 74.130.104.62 23:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Bruce Sanders, October 8, 2007
The Medical and Military Career section isn't very long even though it combines both aspects. Should the paragraph documenting his medical school/residency be moved to the Medical Career section rather than Early life/Education? I think it would be more appropriate there, especially considering the difference in length between those two sections. The Early Life one is pretty long in its current state.-- Gloriamarie 04:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know if the button in this article is an offical campaign button (i.e., would it count as fair use of an item meant for publicity for appearance in this article)? It would definitely add a nice element to the Campaigns section under Early Congressional Career.-- Gloriamarie 04:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I remember a discussion that took place over whether Ron Paul is Episcopalian or Baptist; the New York Times said Episcopalian, I believe, and now NPR does too, but this article was changed at one point to say Baptist.-- Gloriamarie 04:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Should YouTube stats really be in the lead? I mean, the "What the Buck" guy has almost twice as many subscribers.
1of3 16:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The introduction has turned into a resumé. It seriously needs to be trimmed. An introduction should be short and precise. You can write his resumé later in the article text. Carewolf 16:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The intro is a bit too long for my taste, but the article has gone through a Good Article review with nothing being said about the intro being too long. I think it's an appropriate length for a pretty long article.-- Gloriamarie 20:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Ben, I must disagree on the "factual" nature of your view that "there isn't enough gold and silver mined out of the ground to back the money circulating". If perhaps you mean that the value of precious metals in dollars is markedly less than the total number of circulating dollars, that is a fact, and is no more relevant than the fact that the value of dollars is markedly less than the total number of dollars in bank accounts (cough cough). If silver became a standard again and gold were market-driven, supply and demand would shortly regulate their value better than any Fed-up chairman can. This happened repeatedly in the colonies whenever fiat money was rejected, as Ed Griffin observes in Creature from Jekyll Island. If you do not understand the reasonableness of this view, I would still ask you to refrain from judging its acceptability for the lead, because Paul and many others find it perfectly reasonable. I think adding "hard money" back to the lead is sufficient. John J. Bulten 16:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Goals: Lead should be reasonably streamlined (as others agree); political positions summary should summarize (I had synchronized the lead of the positions article to match the summary in the main article plus two sentences from the main lead, and hope to keep them synchronized); it and its own summary should follow the subarticle's outline (foreign policy; economic policy; social/liberty policy); and concerns of individual editors should be addressed. Given that, here’s some rationales to my largely restoring some changes (and thanks to those who have otherwise upheld them). Please object at will.
Delete “10th-term” from lead: much as I like it, it’s implicit in the later breakdown in this graf, and technically it’s also dated.
Delete UN and NATO withdrawal from lead: currently they are in the positions summary and subarticle lead but NOT anywhere in the subarticle! Must not be important enough for the main lead, then, eh? Sometime I will repeat the summary sentence in the subarticle somewhere.
Delete Patriot Act from lead: Similarly, when I first synched, Patriot Act was in main lead but not in either the positions summary or the subarticle lead. I moved it from main lead to both of those.
Delete never unbalancing budget: exactly same case as Patriot Act.
Subsume "smaller government" into "reduced government spending".
Subsume "sharply lower taxes" into "abolition of federal income tax".
Subsume "abolition of the IRS" into "abolish most federal agencies" with IRS-specific link.
Delete "opposes illegal immigration" as redundant. (Who doesn't oppose illegality?) The intent is carried mostly by my import "opposed amnesty for illegal aliens".
Tighten the pro-life in lead again: it had gotten way too overworked. Instead of "ties" this time I just used "Paul calls himself 'strongly pro-life' while also advocating states' rights." Have fun!
Upgrade some items into main lead that were present in one or both summaries and extended in subarticle. However it looks to me like the main lead's positions graf in both my versions is both briefer and better-packed than the supposedly shorter, clearer version someone else reverted to. (I might also add that such reversion restores many unnecessarily poor footnote styles. I might also add that reverting to some version of the problematic "can't break 4%" in the lead is both a misleading implication and, again, potentially dated; the current version "polls lower" with national and statewide links is fine.) John J. Bulten 06:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
1of, thank you for restoring some of the changes. I have restored several more, but only where I can defend them as being noncontroversial (mechanical) or new (nonconsensus). That means that my remaining recommendations are:
(Subarticle's recommended order: nonintervention, Iraq, borders (+), amnesty (+), free-trade, NAFTA (+), taxes, income, reducing, agencies-IRS, hard-money (+), Fed (+), draft (+), habeas-corpus (+), drugs, guns, judges (+), pro-life, states'-rights. Your current "consensus" order: free-trade, taxes-1, reducing-1, nonintervention, NATO (-), UN (-), Iraq, Patriot (-), reducing-2, taxes-2, budget (-), agencies-IRS-1, income, immigration (-), guns, drugs, agencies-IRS-2, pro-life, states'-rights.) OK, now you can tell me what on the above list you still disagree with (providing more documentation than you have so far). Thanks again for working the issue so far. John J. Bulten 23:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
As a newbie I have probably been overusing footnotes in response to demands for proof; others may have also. In general I strive to be lossless so frequently I retain too much info. Wanted to let everyone know I intend this weekend to trim back many of these, spurred on by FA candidacy. Particularly, (1) something footnoted both in the lead and in similar text in the article can be cited only in the second case; (2) of two footnotes that make the exact same point, the less useful can be dropped; (3) of multiple footnotes from the same point in the text, some can be redistributed; (4) dead or unhelpful links can be dropped or replaced. On the other hand, in any case where a point has been or can be reasonably disputed, at least one strong footnote should remain. Any help or comments are welcome. John J. Bulten 22:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)