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Romulus Augustulus History Honestly, it seems that people just don't believe historians. His official name was not Augustulus. Please don't move this entry to yet another new Augustulus entry without doing some research. --MichaelTinkler
If Romulus Augustus was the last emeror of the roman empire, how could there be later emperors like the article talks about. "Unlike many of the later western Roman Emperors, Romulus' life after abdication seems to have been a good one." Reub2000 22:47, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ravenna was the capital of Byzantine authority in the Italian peninsula from 540 to 751 with few small breaks. The Exarch of Ravenna answered directly to the Eastern Roman Emperor in Constantinople. References to further emperors consider the Eastern line rather a nominal Western one. The conquests of Justinian were not uniformly lost after his death as some historians claim. User: Dimadick
Has it been definitely confirmed that Romulus was alive in 511? I know the evidence is two letters from 507 and 511 confirming a pension, but they are addressed to a "Romulus" whose imperial pedigree is at best uncertain. Romulus (like Augustus) was a fairly common name toward the end of the Empire. Additionally, one historian of the time (can't remember who) claimed that Odoacer threw Romulus in jail. And the monastery the last Emperor supposedly endowed, according to Gibbon, was the old villa where Romulus lived -- suggesting that he was dead when it was taken over. Gibbon dates that to about 496 AD or so.
Sorry to be nitpicky. :) I think a death date of after 476 would be more accurate than after 511.-- 68.221.193.57 01:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I changed Romulus' date of death and added a section on his later life. Very little is known about the last emperor's later life, if in fact he had one. The new section discusses this uncertainty.-- Idols of Mud 13:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added footnotes to the article, and moved some things around as a result. Can someone find a citation on Orestes' "Germanic" origins? It would make sense, considering he was in the army and refused the Imperial throne (which Germans could not accept) but I've never read anything that says that conclusively.-- Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a revert war here, so I'll just ask: Can someone explain the reason for the new section on Nepos? I understand that he was legally the last Roman emperor, but I think this is all address in the Western Empire after Romulus Augustus, which states the controversy concisely. But I'm willing to hear althernative viewpoints. :)-- Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I have passed the article through to GA. It is well written, has no obvious POV problems, covers the subject fully, and cites reliable sources. Great work! Eluchil404 21:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but this article i POV when it is declaring that Romulus Augustus is last West Roman emperor. He has not been ruling after 476 but Julius Nepos has been ruling (de facto and de jure) until 480. Reality is that Romulus Augustus is last western roman emperor which is ruling from Italy and nothing else. Even in VI century whan historian has been writing that Romulus Augustus has not been last emperor but his name is so good that he will become that in history books. Rjecina 21:48, 30 march 2006 (CET)
Somebody will ask why this question ? Answer is emperor/usurper Joannes. He has ruled 423-425 but on English wikipedia he is usurper because eastern emperor has not accepted his rule. Romulus Augustus has not been accepted like emperor from eastern emperor so in this logic (english wikipedia logic) he is usurper. Sorry but it is not possible to write of Joannes that he is usurper and that Augustus is true emperor.
Odoacer has accepted ruling of Zeno in which Nepos is western emperor and he is his viceroy. After killing of Nepos like "loyal servant" has attacked Dalmatia to kill person which has killed his emperor. In the end this all is not important but only 1 fact: Has crowned emperor (which has never abdicated) Nepos ruled with minimal 1 roman province after abdication of Augustus ?
Answer is Yes.
Rjecina 22:00, 2 april 2006 (CET)
Every book I have about the Roman Empire presents Romulus Augustus as the last emperor. Some of them say that he is the last emperor of the WRE, while others even go further and say that he is the last emperor of the old Roman Empire. Any account of history is POV. History is always a humane sience and is always imperfect (unlike mathematics, and supposedly chemistry and physics). History is always debated and only slowly agreed upon, as a consensus emerges. That consensus is that Romulus is the last emperor, if we like it or not. I understand the point that Nepos also has a good claim as the last emperor, but his claim has been declared null and void by historians and his rule of the crumbling empire is considered to have ended as he fled towards Dalmatia. Terms like: "Ursurper", "lawful ruler", "Rebel", "Loyalist" are mostly dependant from one POV. Wikipedia has to follow commonly accepted scolarship. We can present the issue in a precise, fair, and clear fashion, but that is it. If someone does not agree with this then he can debate the issue with Roman scholars of the entire world. Who knows? If he manages to convince the overwhelming majority of them, that Julius Nepos whole reign should be considered as the end of the WRE, then history will be re-written. Flamarande 19:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Question of successor is simple. We can write tittle extinct or we can write all successors which control roman provinces with roman army. They are:
If Romulus Augustus has been king of Italy then you can write Odoacer like successor, but he has been "emperor" of all western roman provinces not only of Italy ! Rjecina 15:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
No! No! Romulus Augustus was a usurper. Julius Nepos remained Emperor until he died! Don't take my word for it, just ask his imperial colleague, Zeno! For the question of Zeno's "successor", leave it blank or else write "Zeno"! ~ Unsigned User
Regardless of who the final emperor was, I think it would be appropriate to list Odoacer under the Regnal Titles table at the bottom of the page. Obviously not as the successor to the entirety of the Western Roman Emperor, but only "as King of Italy" (which is done in done in other lineages). Romulus Augustus is listed as Odoacer's predecessor, so why not Odoacer as Romulus Augustus' successor? Although I'm sure there were multiple successors to power in various areas, from what I've read, Odoacer obtained/controlled the majority of Italy, and therefore would be appropriately titled king. 76.235.171.156 ( talk) 21:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The accumulation of evidence is pretty clear, isn't it?
(1) The Eastern Emperor Zeno never recognized either the elevation of Romulus Ausgustus nor the deposition of Julius Nepos.
(2) Odoacer, while acting as Zeno's de jure deputy in the West, continued to mint coins in JN's name until the latter died in 480. Ergo, JN was de jure emperor in the West until his death, his deposition was illegitimate, the investigure of RA was a usurpation, and Orestes was in contempt of imperial authority.
(3) After the death of JN, Odoacer conveyed an opinion to his de jure overlord Zeno, to the effect that one emperor (meaning Zeno and his successors in East) was sufficient, and that no emperor in the West was necessary, and that he, Odoacer, would henceforth owe his full allegiance to the one emperor in the East. Zeno agreed. Of course, this means that there were no more Western emperors following the reign of JN, which ended in 480.
Ergo, by the legal standards of the time, JN was Western emperor from his elevation until his death. The fact that his jurisdiction fell into the hands of a usurper doesn't mean that the usurper replaced the legitimate ruler, any more than the Italian invasion of Ethiopia means that Mussolini or the King of Italy ever replaced Haile Selassie as that country's legitimate ruler. The last Western emperor in the West was JN.
Am I missing something? Tom 129.93.17.135 19:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I rewrote the first line to demonstrate that F. Romulus Augustus was also called Romulus Augustulus and that he was not referred to as "Little Augustus" outside of academia. If it still seems unclear, perhaps explaining that Augustulus is a Latin diminutive name form? I did my best here to make it less confusing. 75.67.40.227 ( talk) 22:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
While Zeno told the Senate that Nepos was their lawful sovereign, he did not press the point, and accepted the imperial insignia brought to him by the senate - not correct. Zeno accepted the insignia only after Nepos' death.-- Dojarca ( talk) 09:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I performed a basic copyedit, but I have also found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
Other than these two issues, the article seems OK, although it could always do with expanding or extra sourcing where possible. I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are being addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 ( talk) 00:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Although a common nomen at the tiem, there's no evidence that Romulus and Orestes bore the name "Flavius". See PLRE II "Orestes 2" (pp. 811-2) and "Romulus 4" (pp. 949-5) for full references. 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 18:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It's true there's no direct evidence that they bore this name, but they probably did, because Flavius (the gentilicium of the Emperor Constantine I), had ceased to function strictly as a nomen and was, rather, used extremely widely as a 'status marker' and not a very high one either. There's a big discussion of its occurence and usage in the fifth & sixth centuries AD in Consuls of the Later Roman Empire by Bagnall, Cameron, Schwartz and Worp (Atlanta, Georgia: American Philological Association, 1987), pages 36-40. They say (p. 37) that the name, at least in the shortened form Fl., had become so widespread that in many cases "Flavius is little more than a courtesy title functioning something like Mr in modern English usage". On that basis it's quite likely that Romulus and Orestes did have 'Fl.' in their titles. Cenedi ( talk) 19:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
We say nothing about how a boy of 14 (or even maybe as young as 12) got to become Emperor of Rome. -- JackofOz ( talk) 03:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I must concur with the conversation at the head of the page; we should call Augustulus what everybody calls him. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I took a look in some of my books:
I know that are also plenty of books that use the diminutive but as far I can judge this matter the trend is to use Romulus Augustus. Notice that Augustulus is merely a nickname (and that the article about Richard Nixon doesn't use "Tricky Dix") Flamarande ( talk) 12:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
In the space of twenty years since the death of Valentinian, nine
emperors had successively disappeared; and the son of Orestes, a youth recommended only by his beauty, would be the least entitled to the notice of posterity, if his reign, which was marked by the extinction of the Roman empire in the West, did not leave a memorable era in the history of mankind. The patrician Orestes had married the daughter of Count _Romulus_, of Petovio in Noricum:the name of _Augustus_, notwithstanding the jealousy of power, was known at Aquileia as a familiar surname; and the appellations of the two great founders, of the city and of the monarchy, were thus strangely united in the last of their successors. The son of Orestes assumed and disgraced the names of Romulus Augustus; but the first was corrupted into Momyllus, by the Greeks, and the second has been changed by the Latins into the
contemptible diminutive Augustulus.
It was a given, not an adopted name.-- Idols of Mud ( talk) 20:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
What truly matters is which of the two names is currently used by English-speaking historians and academia (ie.: which name is taught in school). I provided some credible sources. To be fair I also checked Encyclopedia Britannica and they use "Romulus Augustulus". I can live with that, but let me comment that you Septentrionalis/PMAnderson are way too aggressive. There is no need for that kind of behaviour with serious users (which I believe that I am - self-delusion? :). Leave that for the ardent nationalists which fiercely defend the greatness of their nation/country against everything and anyone. Flamarande ( talk) 21:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
As to the naming issue, judging from the sources I have at my disposal at this moment (a rather limited assortment), "Romulus Augustulus" does appear to be the more commonly used form in index entries (thus appearing in Bury, History of the later Roman Empire, Starr, The Roman Empire, 27 B.C.-A.D. 476, Sinnigen & Boak, A history of Rome to A.D. 565, Geary, Before France and Germany). I have trouble finding instances of the other form. The lemma in Lexikon des Mittelalters is called "Romulus Augustulus", and a query for "Romulus Augustulus" in the International Medieval Bibliography renders five results, against zero for "Romulus Augustus". Iblardi ( talk) 22:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
When it comes to his name his coins show that he was known as Romulus Augustus, the Augustus. More precisely DN ROMVLVS AVGVSTVS PF AVG (Our Lord Romulus Augustus Pius Felix Augustus). Never seen a mention, so far, of the title-name Flavius, nor Imperator Caesar. E.g. http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/romulus_augustus/i.html Not in favour of the article title using Augustulus rather than Augustus, feels mocking rather than formal and correct educationally. Middle More Rider ( talk) 11:38, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Change the infobox to match the other Emperors. The color is wrong.
I think that the table is far too going along the road of common misconception, which is completely not present in expert literature.
It erroneously presents the Western Roman Empire as if an independent faction, separate from the Eastern Roman Empire, when there was in fact no such thing and it was one whole Empire, just as the Holy Roman Empire was, centuries afterward. The presence of more Emperors does not change that, recall the tetrarchy or other temporary resolutions of having a number of rulers in the Empire.
Romulus Augustulus can't be the last Roman Emperor at the West, since, simply, Julius Nepos had, legally, indeed reigned until 480 AD. -- SavoRastko ( talk) 00:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
“ | There was thus theoretically no detachment of Italy from the Empire in the days of Odovacar any more than there had been a detachment of Illyricum in the days of Alaric. The position of Odovacar was still further regularised a few years later (480) by the death of Julius Nepos. [..] The death of Julius Nepos is an event which has some significance; it marks the cessation of a separate line of emperors in the west. But if I have made clear the circumstances of the revolution headed by Odovacar, you will perceive that this event, though of importance in the history of Italy, has not the importance and significance which has been commonly ascribed [170] to it. The year 476 has been generally taken as a great landmark, and the event has been commonly described as the fall of the Western Empire. This unfortunate expression conveys a wholly erroneous idea of the bearings of Odovacar's revolution. Let me observe in the first place that the expression 'Western Empire' is constitutionally improper; it may be convenient as a loose expression for the western provinces of the Empire which, since Theodosius the Great, had been ruled by an emperor at Rome or Ravenna; but there was only one empire, and at the time no one would have dreamed of talking of two. On several occasions during the fifth century the death or deposition of an emperor at Rome or Ravenna had been followed by a considerable space of time in which no successor was elected. During such time the supremacy and authority of the emperor at Constantinople were always acknowledged. Now at any of those times it would have been quite possible for the emperor at Constantinople to have asserted his authority in the western provinces, or for Italy and the western provinces to have said to him: "We do not want a second emperor; you are sufficient." And if such a thing had happened, no one could have possibly described it as a fall of the Western Empire. Yet what happened in 476 was exactly analogous. In the second place, this event concerns specially the history of Italy, in the same way as the settlements of the Visigoths and Burgundians concerned the history of Gaul; and the settlement of the Germans in Italy does not directly affect the western provinces as a whole. It is then a misleading misuse of words to speak of a fall of the Western Empire in 476: the revolution of that year marks but a stage, [171] and that not the last stage, in the encroachments of the barbarian settlers in the western provinces. | ” |
Can someone please provide a source for this second "nickname"? On the web I couldn`t find other proof, all results i managed to gather were websites citing Wikipedia. 31.16.200.17 ( talk) 17:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
(It`s me again) Thanks, great research! That Momylos didn`t appear on coins is a known fact and quite obvious. I strongly support the corruption thesis, because the two words are similar and unintentional corruption can happen easily. Maybe I`ll be able to look up the title from Google Books in my university library to gain more knowledge. So, is it legit to keep Momylos in the article? I`d guess not, if we can`t manage to find the greek source. But I have no experiences in the community here. However, keep up the good work, greets from Germany. 31.16.200.17 ( talk) 22:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
"The empire Augustulus ruled was a shadow of its former self and had shrunk significantly over the previous 80 years. Imperial authority had retreated to the Italian borders and parts of southern Gaul: Italia and Gallia Narbonensis, respectively"
This statement appears to be very inconsistent with the map right next to it. Tallewang ( talk) 23:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
The DIR article gives two different versions. Nathan states he was crowned "possibly at the age of ten" while Mathisen states that he was "perhaps fourteen years of age". Does anybody knows what source gives Romulus' age? The Anonymus Valesianus states that Odoacer felt "pity on his youth", but that doesn't tell us much. Neither the PLRE nor ODB give any date of birth. Tintero21 ( talk) 04:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
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Romulus Augustulus History Honestly, it seems that people just don't believe historians. His official name was not Augustulus. Please don't move this entry to yet another new Augustulus entry without doing some research. --MichaelTinkler
If Romulus Augustus was the last emeror of the roman empire, how could there be later emperors like the article talks about. "Unlike many of the later western Roman Emperors, Romulus' life after abdication seems to have been a good one." Reub2000 22:47, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ravenna was the capital of Byzantine authority in the Italian peninsula from 540 to 751 with few small breaks. The Exarch of Ravenna answered directly to the Eastern Roman Emperor in Constantinople. References to further emperors consider the Eastern line rather a nominal Western one. The conquests of Justinian were not uniformly lost after his death as some historians claim. User: Dimadick
Has it been definitely confirmed that Romulus was alive in 511? I know the evidence is two letters from 507 and 511 confirming a pension, but they are addressed to a "Romulus" whose imperial pedigree is at best uncertain. Romulus (like Augustus) was a fairly common name toward the end of the Empire. Additionally, one historian of the time (can't remember who) claimed that Odoacer threw Romulus in jail. And the monastery the last Emperor supposedly endowed, according to Gibbon, was the old villa where Romulus lived -- suggesting that he was dead when it was taken over. Gibbon dates that to about 496 AD or so.
Sorry to be nitpicky. :) I think a death date of after 476 would be more accurate than after 511.-- 68.221.193.57 01:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I changed Romulus' date of death and added a section on his later life. Very little is known about the last emperor's later life, if in fact he had one. The new section discusses this uncertainty.-- Idols of Mud 13:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added footnotes to the article, and moved some things around as a result. Can someone find a citation on Orestes' "Germanic" origins? It would make sense, considering he was in the army and refused the Imperial throne (which Germans could not accept) but I've never read anything that says that conclusively.-- Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into a revert war here, so I'll just ask: Can someone explain the reason for the new section on Nepos? I understand that he was legally the last Roman emperor, but I think this is all address in the Western Empire after Romulus Augustus, which states the controversy concisely. But I'm willing to hear althernative viewpoints. :)-- Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I have passed the article through to GA. It is well written, has no obvious POV problems, covers the subject fully, and cites reliable sources. Great work! Eluchil404 21:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but this article i POV when it is declaring that Romulus Augustus is last West Roman emperor. He has not been ruling after 476 but Julius Nepos has been ruling (de facto and de jure) until 480. Reality is that Romulus Augustus is last western roman emperor which is ruling from Italy and nothing else. Even in VI century whan historian has been writing that Romulus Augustus has not been last emperor but his name is so good that he will become that in history books. Rjecina 21:48, 30 march 2006 (CET)
Somebody will ask why this question ? Answer is emperor/usurper Joannes. He has ruled 423-425 but on English wikipedia he is usurper because eastern emperor has not accepted his rule. Romulus Augustus has not been accepted like emperor from eastern emperor so in this logic (english wikipedia logic) he is usurper. Sorry but it is not possible to write of Joannes that he is usurper and that Augustus is true emperor.
Odoacer has accepted ruling of Zeno in which Nepos is western emperor and he is his viceroy. After killing of Nepos like "loyal servant" has attacked Dalmatia to kill person which has killed his emperor. In the end this all is not important but only 1 fact: Has crowned emperor (which has never abdicated) Nepos ruled with minimal 1 roman province after abdication of Augustus ?
Answer is Yes.
Rjecina 22:00, 2 april 2006 (CET)
Every book I have about the Roman Empire presents Romulus Augustus as the last emperor. Some of them say that he is the last emperor of the WRE, while others even go further and say that he is the last emperor of the old Roman Empire. Any account of history is POV. History is always a humane sience and is always imperfect (unlike mathematics, and supposedly chemistry and physics). History is always debated and only slowly agreed upon, as a consensus emerges. That consensus is that Romulus is the last emperor, if we like it or not. I understand the point that Nepos also has a good claim as the last emperor, but his claim has been declared null and void by historians and his rule of the crumbling empire is considered to have ended as he fled towards Dalmatia. Terms like: "Ursurper", "lawful ruler", "Rebel", "Loyalist" are mostly dependant from one POV. Wikipedia has to follow commonly accepted scolarship. We can present the issue in a precise, fair, and clear fashion, but that is it. If someone does not agree with this then he can debate the issue with Roman scholars of the entire world. Who knows? If he manages to convince the overwhelming majority of them, that Julius Nepos whole reign should be considered as the end of the WRE, then history will be re-written. Flamarande 19:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Question of successor is simple. We can write tittle extinct or we can write all successors which control roman provinces with roman army. They are:
If Romulus Augustus has been king of Italy then you can write Odoacer like successor, but he has been "emperor" of all western roman provinces not only of Italy ! Rjecina 15:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
No! No! Romulus Augustus was a usurper. Julius Nepos remained Emperor until he died! Don't take my word for it, just ask his imperial colleague, Zeno! For the question of Zeno's "successor", leave it blank or else write "Zeno"! ~ Unsigned User
Regardless of who the final emperor was, I think it would be appropriate to list Odoacer under the Regnal Titles table at the bottom of the page. Obviously not as the successor to the entirety of the Western Roman Emperor, but only "as King of Italy" (which is done in done in other lineages). Romulus Augustus is listed as Odoacer's predecessor, so why not Odoacer as Romulus Augustus' successor? Although I'm sure there were multiple successors to power in various areas, from what I've read, Odoacer obtained/controlled the majority of Italy, and therefore would be appropriately titled king. 76.235.171.156 ( talk) 21:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The accumulation of evidence is pretty clear, isn't it?
(1) The Eastern Emperor Zeno never recognized either the elevation of Romulus Ausgustus nor the deposition of Julius Nepos.
(2) Odoacer, while acting as Zeno's de jure deputy in the West, continued to mint coins in JN's name until the latter died in 480. Ergo, JN was de jure emperor in the West until his death, his deposition was illegitimate, the investigure of RA was a usurpation, and Orestes was in contempt of imperial authority.
(3) After the death of JN, Odoacer conveyed an opinion to his de jure overlord Zeno, to the effect that one emperor (meaning Zeno and his successors in East) was sufficient, and that no emperor in the West was necessary, and that he, Odoacer, would henceforth owe his full allegiance to the one emperor in the East. Zeno agreed. Of course, this means that there were no more Western emperors following the reign of JN, which ended in 480.
Ergo, by the legal standards of the time, JN was Western emperor from his elevation until his death. The fact that his jurisdiction fell into the hands of a usurper doesn't mean that the usurper replaced the legitimate ruler, any more than the Italian invasion of Ethiopia means that Mussolini or the King of Italy ever replaced Haile Selassie as that country's legitimate ruler. The last Western emperor in the West was JN.
Am I missing something? Tom 129.93.17.135 19:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I rewrote the first line to demonstrate that F. Romulus Augustus was also called Romulus Augustulus and that he was not referred to as "Little Augustus" outside of academia. If it still seems unclear, perhaps explaining that Augustulus is a Latin diminutive name form? I did my best here to make it less confusing. 75.67.40.227 ( talk) 22:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
While Zeno told the Senate that Nepos was their lawful sovereign, he did not press the point, and accepted the imperial insignia brought to him by the senate - not correct. Zeno accepted the insignia only after Nepos' death.-- Dojarca ( talk) 09:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I performed a basic copyedit, but I have also found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
Other than these two issues, the article seems OK, although it could always do with expanding or extra sourcing where possible. I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are being addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 ( talk) 00:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Although a common nomen at the tiem, there's no evidence that Romulus and Orestes bore the name "Flavius". See PLRE II "Orestes 2" (pp. 811-2) and "Romulus 4" (pp. 949-5) for full references. 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 18:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It's true there's no direct evidence that they bore this name, but they probably did, because Flavius (the gentilicium of the Emperor Constantine I), had ceased to function strictly as a nomen and was, rather, used extremely widely as a 'status marker' and not a very high one either. There's a big discussion of its occurence and usage in the fifth & sixth centuries AD in Consuls of the Later Roman Empire by Bagnall, Cameron, Schwartz and Worp (Atlanta, Georgia: American Philological Association, 1987), pages 36-40. They say (p. 37) that the name, at least in the shortened form Fl., had become so widespread that in many cases "Flavius is little more than a courtesy title functioning something like Mr in modern English usage". On that basis it's quite likely that Romulus and Orestes did have 'Fl.' in their titles. Cenedi ( talk) 19:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
We say nothing about how a boy of 14 (or even maybe as young as 12) got to become Emperor of Rome. -- JackofOz ( talk) 03:17, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I must concur with the conversation at the head of the page; we should call Augustulus what everybody calls him. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I took a look in some of my books:
I know that are also plenty of books that use the diminutive but as far I can judge this matter the trend is to use Romulus Augustus. Notice that Augustulus is merely a nickname (and that the article about Richard Nixon doesn't use "Tricky Dix") Flamarande ( talk) 12:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
In the space of twenty years since the death of Valentinian, nine
emperors had successively disappeared; and the son of Orestes, a youth recommended only by his beauty, would be the least entitled to the notice of posterity, if his reign, which was marked by the extinction of the Roman empire in the West, did not leave a memorable era in the history of mankind. The patrician Orestes had married the daughter of Count _Romulus_, of Petovio in Noricum:the name of _Augustus_, notwithstanding the jealousy of power, was known at Aquileia as a familiar surname; and the appellations of the two great founders, of the city and of the monarchy, were thus strangely united in the last of their successors. The son of Orestes assumed and disgraced the names of Romulus Augustus; but the first was corrupted into Momyllus, by the Greeks, and the second has been changed by the Latins into the
contemptible diminutive Augustulus.
It was a given, not an adopted name.-- Idols of Mud ( talk) 20:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
What truly matters is which of the two names is currently used by English-speaking historians and academia (ie.: which name is taught in school). I provided some credible sources. To be fair I also checked Encyclopedia Britannica and they use "Romulus Augustulus". I can live with that, but let me comment that you Septentrionalis/PMAnderson are way too aggressive. There is no need for that kind of behaviour with serious users (which I believe that I am - self-delusion? :). Leave that for the ardent nationalists which fiercely defend the greatness of their nation/country against everything and anyone. Flamarande ( talk) 21:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
As to the naming issue, judging from the sources I have at my disposal at this moment (a rather limited assortment), "Romulus Augustulus" does appear to be the more commonly used form in index entries (thus appearing in Bury, History of the later Roman Empire, Starr, The Roman Empire, 27 B.C.-A.D. 476, Sinnigen & Boak, A history of Rome to A.D. 565, Geary, Before France and Germany). I have trouble finding instances of the other form. The lemma in Lexikon des Mittelalters is called "Romulus Augustulus", and a query for "Romulus Augustulus" in the International Medieval Bibliography renders five results, against zero for "Romulus Augustus". Iblardi ( talk) 22:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
When it comes to his name his coins show that he was known as Romulus Augustus, the Augustus. More precisely DN ROMVLVS AVGVSTVS PF AVG (Our Lord Romulus Augustus Pius Felix Augustus). Never seen a mention, so far, of the title-name Flavius, nor Imperator Caesar. E.g. http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/romulus_augustus/i.html Not in favour of the article title using Augustulus rather than Augustus, feels mocking rather than formal and correct educationally. Middle More Rider ( talk) 11:38, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
Change the infobox to match the other Emperors. The color is wrong.
I think that the table is far too going along the road of common misconception, which is completely not present in expert literature.
It erroneously presents the Western Roman Empire as if an independent faction, separate from the Eastern Roman Empire, when there was in fact no such thing and it was one whole Empire, just as the Holy Roman Empire was, centuries afterward. The presence of more Emperors does not change that, recall the tetrarchy or other temporary resolutions of having a number of rulers in the Empire.
Romulus Augustulus can't be the last Roman Emperor at the West, since, simply, Julius Nepos had, legally, indeed reigned until 480 AD. -- SavoRastko ( talk) 00:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
“ | There was thus theoretically no detachment of Italy from the Empire in the days of Odovacar any more than there had been a detachment of Illyricum in the days of Alaric. The position of Odovacar was still further regularised a few years later (480) by the death of Julius Nepos. [..] The death of Julius Nepos is an event which has some significance; it marks the cessation of a separate line of emperors in the west. But if I have made clear the circumstances of the revolution headed by Odovacar, you will perceive that this event, though of importance in the history of Italy, has not the importance and significance which has been commonly ascribed [170] to it. The year 476 has been generally taken as a great landmark, and the event has been commonly described as the fall of the Western Empire. This unfortunate expression conveys a wholly erroneous idea of the bearings of Odovacar's revolution. Let me observe in the first place that the expression 'Western Empire' is constitutionally improper; it may be convenient as a loose expression for the western provinces of the Empire which, since Theodosius the Great, had been ruled by an emperor at Rome or Ravenna; but there was only one empire, and at the time no one would have dreamed of talking of two. On several occasions during the fifth century the death or deposition of an emperor at Rome or Ravenna had been followed by a considerable space of time in which no successor was elected. During such time the supremacy and authority of the emperor at Constantinople were always acknowledged. Now at any of those times it would have been quite possible for the emperor at Constantinople to have asserted his authority in the western provinces, or for Italy and the western provinces to have said to him: "We do not want a second emperor; you are sufficient." And if such a thing had happened, no one could have possibly described it as a fall of the Western Empire. Yet what happened in 476 was exactly analogous. In the second place, this event concerns specially the history of Italy, in the same way as the settlements of the Visigoths and Burgundians concerned the history of Gaul; and the settlement of the Germans in Italy does not directly affect the western provinces as a whole. It is then a misleading misuse of words to speak of a fall of the Western Empire in 476: the revolution of that year marks but a stage, [171] and that not the last stage, in the encroachments of the barbarian settlers in the western provinces. | ” |
Can someone please provide a source for this second "nickname"? On the web I couldn`t find other proof, all results i managed to gather were websites citing Wikipedia. 31.16.200.17 ( talk) 17:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
(It`s me again) Thanks, great research! That Momylos didn`t appear on coins is a known fact and quite obvious. I strongly support the corruption thesis, because the two words are similar and unintentional corruption can happen easily. Maybe I`ll be able to look up the title from Google Books in my university library to gain more knowledge. So, is it legit to keep Momylos in the article? I`d guess not, if we can`t manage to find the greek source. But I have no experiences in the community here. However, keep up the good work, greets from Germany. 31.16.200.17 ( talk) 22:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
"The empire Augustulus ruled was a shadow of its former self and had shrunk significantly over the previous 80 years. Imperial authority had retreated to the Italian borders and parts of southern Gaul: Italia and Gallia Narbonensis, respectively"
This statement appears to be very inconsistent with the map right next to it. Tallewang ( talk) 23:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
The DIR article gives two different versions. Nathan states he was crowned "possibly at the age of ten" while Mathisen states that he was "perhaps fourteen years of age". Does anybody knows what source gives Romulus' age? The Anonymus Valesianus states that Odoacer felt "pity on his youth", but that doesn't tell us much. Neither the PLRE nor ODB give any date of birth. Tintero21 ( talk) 04:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)