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From the article:
What is this, "good news about the holocaust"? As I understand it, 80-90% of Greece's Jews were killed in the holocaust, and I imagine the numbers were comparable for Romaniotes as to others. Does anyone have any pre- and post-war population numbers for the Romaniotes? It would be a useful addition to the article. -- Jmabel 06:35, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Expanding on my previous remark, this article is missing good numbers on the Romaniote population at any time or place, and what little information it has contradicts itself. -- Jmabel 22:37, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
i don't know if is the right place to post but i've found this news
The Jewish presence in Athens dates from the 3rd century BC. A Jewish synagogue discovered at the Ancient Agora, at the foothills of the Acropolis, bears witness to the existence of a Jewish community in this ancient city since at least the 3rd century BC. http://www.nylou.com/
Some one can tell me if is true or fals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.107.83.11 ( talk) 14:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
i've been doing research on greece for as long as i can remember, and i still know very little about the romaniotes.
Gringo300 09:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I have just done some editing in this article, moslty incorporating stuff from the Greece article, and I have also tried to make this article a bit more structured, but there is one thing that bugs me: Jews in Greece is redirected to Romaniotes, and this article talks about Romaniotes in particular and about Jews in Greece (Romaniotes AND Sephardim) in general. Subgroup and supergroup. There is an ambiguity every time there is something to be said. I tried to fix this followng the pattern "This happened to Jews in Greece, this happened to Romaniotes in particular", but I think there should be some more clarification on the matter. Personally speaking all I know about Jews in Greece comes from wikipedia, so please anyone who knows a bit more (Etz Haim?) help clarify this! Michalis Famelis 08:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a pet interest of mine as I have a Jewish ancestor from Thrace and I have done quite a bit of reading on this as well as travel in the region looking up old communities.
To be frank the reason why you don't see a lot of mention of "Romaniotes" is that their fate runs completely counter to the accepted view of what happened during the Ottoman conquest. In short the big Romamiote communities in Salonika, constantinople and other areas were obliterated by the Ottomans. The fascinating and important history of the Sephardim has developed to be grateful at the Ottoman actions after the expulsions from Spain, as it should be, but there seems to have been a discomofort in the past to properly examine as to what happened to the "Romaniotes." What happened to them was expulsion, forced conversion, enslavement and massacre along with the rest of the populations of Salonkia and Constantinople as well as other cities where they had major populations.
Even after the conquest, the Ottoman sürgün (exile and resettlement) policies towards the Romaniot (and Karaite) Jews consituted what we would see today as a mass ethnic cleansing.
Please do read some of the excellent research by Joseph Hacker, the preeminient historian of this, as well as the work of Minna Rozen.
I will add some material to this page as well as the page on the Jews of Turkey, which very much overlooks the early years, both the thriving commuinties during the Byzantine empire and te newer work on the fate of the Romaniotes during the conquest.
The categorization is difficult, because if we are going with geographic areas, whci seems to be the style used in the "Jews of Turkey" page, it must indclude the very strong communities there during Byzantine Empire. the certainly deserve as much space and attention as during the Ottoman Empire. As it stands now it just goes over 1,000 years Jewish life in the Byzantine Empire in Asia Minor as though this never happned. (I added the word Byzantine Empire and someone deleted it! lol)
I think these topics should be split into 1. Sephardim and Romaniotes pages with sections on the areas of curent Greece, Turkey as well as Eastern Roman, Byzantine Greek, Ottoman Turkish and Modern Greek and Modern Turkish sections, pluse teh etc, including the fate of Salonka and the Romaniotes kept dominated by Romaniotes.
Splitting the into main pages for each current geographic area (Jews of Greece, Jews of Turkey") creates confusion as areas have been integrated and under common rule for 96%% of the time in question (500 bce - 1900 ce). DaveHM 22:59, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
This article needs to be retitled or needs a lot more information added. It is not about the Romaniote Jews of the Hellenic, Hellenistic, or Byzantine worlds, but about those of Greece. There is precisely zero information, for instance, on the topic of Romaniotes of Constantinople, where they were an important and to some extent assimilated part of Greek Byzantine culture for almost a thousand years. Whatever one may say about the Ottoman Conquest and the policy of population transfers, it seems to have brought still more Romaniotes into the capital, and decline seems to have occurred primarily through competition with and eventual assimilation by the Sephardic newcomers. This information I have from an article by Julia Krivoruchko in the book "Developing Cultural Identity in the Balkans," but I don't have access to it in order to expand the article myself. Meanwhile, I would be interested in knowing if there is any Romaniote community left at all in Turkey. Winter Maiden ( talk) 04:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
i've recently read that the word "yevanim" is hebrew for "greeks". however, in the contexts i've read this in, it appears that yevanim isn't being used specifically for the romaniotes. Gringo300 17:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Text should not be changed to remove fact, suppotted by all historians and first person accounts, that Bulgarian authorities deported to death camps all Jews in the Greek territory they occupied. DaveHM 02:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
[Sorry I edited one of the comments above before,I reinsert it here for clarity's sake and will delete the first insertion afterwards]
Hopefully I am doing this right since it's my first contribution here.Anyway here are my remarks regarding the Holocaust period: The idea of heavy greek private and goverment aid during the Holocaust is ridiculous.When 97% of the Thessaloniki jew's died how can any kind of aid be suggested?!The only mass aid ever given was Police Chief's Evert actions which led to the limited number of some jews being saved. On the Orthodox Churche's aid one must note the brave attempt of Archibissop Damaskinos to hinder the deportation but his words were not repeated by any local church leader ,nor were they accompanied by any practical action other than the local bishop of Zakynthos. My sayings are proved by the fact that the greek authorities denied the making of a Holocaust memorial,on the Jewish Community's expenses,till the late 90's plus the systematic efforts to ignore the city's past. In any case they cannot be considered anything more than marginal phenomena and with limited appeal.I would change it to "despite limited efforts of the central Orthodox church,which did not encounter serious support in the local authorities the Romaniotes community suffered the same fate as the rest..."
And that brings me to the next subject which is the fact that in the article the romaniotes had a better fate.This is completely incorrect.The best "rates" of survival were by the Athen's jews due to their integration to the local society and lack of extensive antisemitic feelings in the local population.The Romaniotes,or what was left from them,suffered the similar fates of the sefardim.
The numbers on the front page are also incorrect since practically the Romaniotes community has ceased to exist to any place other than Jannena and even there,they're not the majority on a ever diminuishing jewish presence.
In general,and I regret to say this,I found many gross inaccuracies and lot's of "makeup" for the Holocaust period.I'll try to gather some data and try to fix this one together. :) Iws 1 Jan 2006
Hopefully,I'm adding the comment in the right way now,(thanks for fixing the mess I created before).
The problem with sources on the shoah in Greece is the fact that there has been a substancial indifference on this subject by the official greek state.Evidence of this,(and I think that on this we can all agree),are the lack of any mention in the school textbooks and in general any official mention,(the first circular of the Ministry of Education was released only this year and linked to political goals,while the MemorialDay has been an extremely recent event).
More info can be found in Giorgos Margaritis book "Unwanted Compatriots" ( [ http://www.papasotiriou.gr/product.gbook.asp?pfid=582687&prid=271105&deid=0 ΑΝΕΠΙΘΥΜΗΤΟΙ ΣΥΜΠΑΤΡΙΩΤΕΣ].
Bottom line is that I don't say that there haven't been proved and numerous cases of salvation.Yad Vashem has documented them. But with a 97,5% in Thessaloniki and more than 75% in the rest of Greece it is very difficult to continue supporting that there was an extensive effort to save jews.And no,the german occupation in Greece was not the harshest possible,the cases of Poland,Hungary and Yugoslavia were far harder.I would agree if you compared it to the Denmark occupation,(which by the way saved almost all of it's jews) or France's.
The Damaskinos's declaration is an extraordinary act but did not meet any answer from the local clergy.I have tried intesively to find an online catalogue with the names of the Righteous Among the Nations which will prove the lack of presence of the local priests but I haven't found anything better than this. [4] In any case I can personally testify for the use of tombstones in churche's yards deriving from the destroyed 500.000 strong cemetary,(uppon it lies half of the Aristotle University hastily built in '43 as to exploit the event,much to the respect of the dead and to those who support the presumed extensive help of the local authorities).
I intend to add a lot of information deriving from a small article from the Central Jewish Board [5] Plus I would like to change some other info such as population which should be over 500,with a total of greek jews of 2500. Also bring the external help from the population to it's real dimensions which,(although I agree with your statements on it's greater extensions if compared to Thessaloniki and for the reasons you mentioned),I believe it's much too enlarged and emphasized.
I am not aware of the exact procedure since we disagree.For example I can edit the article.Why shouldn't you change it afterwards?If all this is to be discussed in another seat please indicate which so that we can continue there.-- Iws 19:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a description of the remaining Romaniote synagogue in Ioannina which I found here. The only problem is that since I am a completely ignorant gentile I may have misunderstood some of the elements of the descriptions, but being audaciously bold I added them anyway. I am reffering to the part that reads:
The issues that could possibly arize are:
So, what I'm saying is, if anyone has any way of clarifying the above, please do so!!!!! -- Michalis Famelis 23:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose to delete the window titled, 'Part of a series of articles on Jews and Judaism'. The links it gives must be place in a 'Portal' article on Jews and Judaism, not smack across other articles. If everybody did this, there would be no room on the article pages for any other information. Politis 11:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The specific section, as-is, is not directly relevant, since the article is specifically about the Romaniotes (a population distinct from the Sephardim, who have constituted the majority of Jews in Greece for the past few centuries). A better place for it would thus be within the article History of the Jews in Greece. Instead, I suggest that the section be renamed "Notable Romaniotes" and the list of names be accordingly populated. Please comment here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Contributor175 ( talk • contribs) 24 November 2006.
Didn't ALL the people of the Byzantine empire call themselves Romaniotes from the 11-12th century' to differ from the Latin crusaders? David1776 15:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know the liturgical language of the Romaniotes, because I think it should be in the infobox. Ashkenazi Hebrew is at Ashkenazim and Sephardi Hebrew is at Sephardim for example.-- Domitius 19:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
It says 11,000 Romaniotes live in Greece. That can't be accurate; only 5,000 Jews live in Greece. Could someone find the real number?-- RM ( Be my friend) 04:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
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The photo depicts two pairs of men, sitting and standing. The two standing men each appear to have narrow mustaches: on closer examination, the "mustaches" appear to be inked-in.
A defaced picture? Is this appropriate for Wikipedia?
LandisFrann ( talk) 05:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC) LandisFrann
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From the article:
What is this, "good news about the holocaust"? As I understand it, 80-90% of Greece's Jews were killed in the holocaust, and I imagine the numbers were comparable for Romaniotes as to others. Does anyone have any pre- and post-war population numbers for the Romaniotes? It would be a useful addition to the article. -- Jmabel 06:35, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Expanding on my previous remark, this article is missing good numbers on the Romaniote population at any time or place, and what little information it has contradicts itself. -- Jmabel 22:37, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
i don't know if is the right place to post but i've found this news
The Jewish presence in Athens dates from the 3rd century BC. A Jewish synagogue discovered at the Ancient Agora, at the foothills of the Acropolis, bears witness to the existence of a Jewish community in this ancient city since at least the 3rd century BC. http://www.nylou.com/
Some one can tell me if is true or fals? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.107.83.11 ( talk) 14:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
i've been doing research on greece for as long as i can remember, and i still know very little about the romaniotes.
Gringo300 09:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I have just done some editing in this article, moslty incorporating stuff from the Greece article, and I have also tried to make this article a bit more structured, but there is one thing that bugs me: Jews in Greece is redirected to Romaniotes, and this article talks about Romaniotes in particular and about Jews in Greece (Romaniotes AND Sephardim) in general. Subgroup and supergroup. There is an ambiguity every time there is something to be said. I tried to fix this followng the pattern "This happened to Jews in Greece, this happened to Romaniotes in particular", but I think there should be some more clarification on the matter. Personally speaking all I know about Jews in Greece comes from wikipedia, so please anyone who knows a bit more (Etz Haim?) help clarify this! Michalis Famelis 08:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
This is a pet interest of mine as I have a Jewish ancestor from Thrace and I have done quite a bit of reading on this as well as travel in the region looking up old communities.
To be frank the reason why you don't see a lot of mention of "Romaniotes" is that their fate runs completely counter to the accepted view of what happened during the Ottoman conquest. In short the big Romamiote communities in Salonika, constantinople and other areas were obliterated by the Ottomans. The fascinating and important history of the Sephardim has developed to be grateful at the Ottoman actions after the expulsions from Spain, as it should be, but there seems to have been a discomofort in the past to properly examine as to what happened to the "Romaniotes." What happened to them was expulsion, forced conversion, enslavement and massacre along with the rest of the populations of Salonkia and Constantinople as well as other cities where they had major populations.
Even after the conquest, the Ottoman sürgün (exile and resettlement) policies towards the Romaniot (and Karaite) Jews consituted what we would see today as a mass ethnic cleansing.
Please do read some of the excellent research by Joseph Hacker, the preeminient historian of this, as well as the work of Minna Rozen.
I will add some material to this page as well as the page on the Jews of Turkey, which very much overlooks the early years, both the thriving commuinties during the Byzantine empire and te newer work on the fate of the Romaniotes during the conquest.
The categorization is difficult, because if we are going with geographic areas, whci seems to be the style used in the "Jews of Turkey" page, it must indclude the very strong communities there during Byzantine Empire. the certainly deserve as much space and attention as during the Ottoman Empire. As it stands now it just goes over 1,000 years Jewish life in the Byzantine Empire in Asia Minor as though this never happned. (I added the word Byzantine Empire and someone deleted it! lol)
I think these topics should be split into 1. Sephardim and Romaniotes pages with sections on the areas of curent Greece, Turkey as well as Eastern Roman, Byzantine Greek, Ottoman Turkish and Modern Greek and Modern Turkish sections, pluse teh etc, including the fate of Salonka and the Romaniotes kept dominated by Romaniotes.
Splitting the into main pages for each current geographic area (Jews of Greece, Jews of Turkey") creates confusion as areas have been integrated and under common rule for 96%% of the time in question (500 bce - 1900 ce). DaveHM 22:59, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
This article needs to be retitled or needs a lot more information added. It is not about the Romaniote Jews of the Hellenic, Hellenistic, or Byzantine worlds, but about those of Greece. There is precisely zero information, for instance, on the topic of Romaniotes of Constantinople, where they were an important and to some extent assimilated part of Greek Byzantine culture for almost a thousand years. Whatever one may say about the Ottoman Conquest and the policy of population transfers, it seems to have brought still more Romaniotes into the capital, and decline seems to have occurred primarily through competition with and eventual assimilation by the Sephardic newcomers. This information I have from an article by Julia Krivoruchko in the book "Developing Cultural Identity in the Balkans," but I don't have access to it in order to expand the article myself. Meanwhile, I would be interested in knowing if there is any Romaniote community left at all in Turkey. Winter Maiden ( talk) 04:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
i've recently read that the word "yevanim" is hebrew for "greeks". however, in the contexts i've read this in, it appears that yevanim isn't being used specifically for the romaniotes. Gringo300 17:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Text should not be changed to remove fact, suppotted by all historians and first person accounts, that Bulgarian authorities deported to death camps all Jews in the Greek territory they occupied. DaveHM 02:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
[Sorry I edited one of the comments above before,I reinsert it here for clarity's sake and will delete the first insertion afterwards]
Hopefully I am doing this right since it's my first contribution here.Anyway here are my remarks regarding the Holocaust period: The idea of heavy greek private and goverment aid during the Holocaust is ridiculous.When 97% of the Thessaloniki jew's died how can any kind of aid be suggested?!The only mass aid ever given was Police Chief's Evert actions which led to the limited number of some jews being saved. On the Orthodox Churche's aid one must note the brave attempt of Archibissop Damaskinos to hinder the deportation but his words were not repeated by any local church leader ,nor were they accompanied by any practical action other than the local bishop of Zakynthos. My sayings are proved by the fact that the greek authorities denied the making of a Holocaust memorial,on the Jewish Community's expenses,till the late 90's plus the systematic efforts to ignore the city's past. In any case they cannot be considered anything more than marginal phenomena and with limited appeal.I would change it to "despite limited efforts of the central Orthodox church,which did not encounter serious support in the local authorities the Romaniotes community suffered the same fate as the rest..."
And that brings me to the next subject which is the fact that in the article the romaniotes had a better fate.This is completely incorrect.The best "rates" of survival were by the Athen's jews due to their integration to the local society and lack of extensive antisemitic feelings in the local population.The Romaniotes,or what was left from them,suffered the similar fates of the sefardim.
The numbers on the front page are also incorrect since practically the Romaniotes community has ceased to exist to any place other than Jannena and even there,they're not the majority on a ever diminuishing jewish presence.
In general,and I regret to say this,I found many gross inaccuracies and lot's of "makeup" for the Holocaust period.I'll try to gather some data and try to fix this one together. :) Iws 1 Jan 2006
Hopefully,I'm adding the comment in the right way now,(thanks for fixing the mess I created before).
The problem with sources on the shoah in Greece is the fact that there has been a substancial indifference on this subject by the official greek state.Evidence of this,(and I think that on this we can all agree),are the lack of any mention in the school textbooks and in general any official mention,(the first circular of the Ministry of Education was released only this year and linked to political goals,while the MemorialDay has been an extremely recent event).
More info can be found in Giorgos Margaritis book "Unwanted Compatriots" ( [ http://www.papasotiriou.gr/product.gbook.asp?pfid=582687&prid=271105&deid=0 ΑΝΕΠΙΘΥΜΗΤΟΙ ΣΥΜΠΑΤΡΙΩΤΕΣ].
Bottom line is that I don't say that there haven't been proved and numerous cases of salvation.Yad Vashem has documented them. But with a 97,5% in Thessaloniki and more than 75% in the rest of Greece it is very difficult to continue supporting that there was an extensive effort to save jews.And no,the german occupation in Greece was not the harshest possible,the cases of Poland,Hungary and Yugoslavia were far harder.I would agree if you compared it to the Denmark occupation,(which by the way saved almost all of it's jews) or France's.
The Damaskinos's declaration is an extraordinary act but did not meet any answer from the local clergy.I have tried intesively to find an online catalogue with the names of the Righteous Among the Nations which will prove the lack of presence of the local priests but I haven't found anything better than this. [4] In any case I can personally testify for the use of tombstones in churche's yards deriving from the destroyed 500.000 strong cemetary,(uppon it lies half of the Aristotle University hastily built in '43 as to exploit the event,much to the respect of the dead and to those who support the presumed extensive help of the local authorities).
I intend to add a lot of information deriving from a small article from the Central Jewish Board [5] Plus I would like to change some other info such as population which should be over 500,with a total of greek jews of 2500. Also bring the external help from the population to it's real dimensions which,(although I agree with your statements on it's greater extensions if compared to Thessaloniki and for the reasons you mentioned),I believe it's much too enlarged and emphasized.
I am not aware of the exact procedure since we disagree.For example I can edit the article.Why shouldn't you change it afterwards?If all this is to be discussed in another seat please indicate which so that we can continue there.-- Iws 19:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a description of the remaining Romaniote synagogue in Ioannina which I found here. The only problem is that since I am a completely ignorant gentile I may have misunderstood some of the elements of the descriptions, but being audaciously bold I added them anyway. I am reffering to the part that reads:
The issues that could possibly arize are:
So, what I'm saying is, if anyone has any way of clarifying the above, please do so!!!!! -- Michalis Famelis 23:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose to delete the window titled, 'Part of a series of articles on Jews and Judaism'. The links it gives must be place in a 'Portal' article on Jews and Judaism, not smack across other articles. If everybody did this, there would be no room on the article pages for any other information. Politis 11:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The specific section, as-is, is not directly relevant, since the article is specifically about the Romaniotes (a population distinct from the Sephardim, who have constituted the majority of Jews in Greece for the past few centuries). A better place for it would thus be within the article History of the Jews in Greece. Instead, I suggest that the section be renamed "Notable Romaniotes" and the list of names be accordingly populated. Please comment here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Contributor175 ( talk • contribs) 24 November 2006.
Didn't ALL the people of the Byzantine empire call themselves Romaniotes from the 11-12th century' to differ from the Latin crusaders? David1776 15:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know the liturgical language of the Romaniotes, because I think it should be in the infobox. Ashkenazi Hebrew is at Ashkenazim and Sephardi Hebrew is at Sephardim for example.-- Domitius 19:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
It says 11,000 Romaniotes live in Greece. That can't be accurate; only 5,000 Jews live in Greece. Could someone find the real number?-- RM ( Be my friend) 04:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
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The photo depicts two pairs of men, sitting and standing. The two standing men each appear to have narrow mustaches: on closer examination, the "mustaches" appear to be inked-in.
A defaced picture? Is this appropriate for Wikipedia?
LandisFrann ( talk) 05:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC) LandisFrann
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)