![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Sometime in the last few weeks, "the historic Transylvanian figure of Vlad Ţepeş" became "the historic Wallachian figure of Vlad Ţepeş". Given that he was born in Sighişoara, I would have expected that the former is more correct, though I realize that he ruled for a time in Wallachia. Comments? - Jmabel | Talk 06:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC).
In fact he is a Romanian figure. He was born in Sighişoara, but giving the fact that all his purpose in life was to reign over Wallachia, you could say that he was a historic Wallachian figure. And considering his family background …
There are a lot of Romanian books on him, but I’m afraid that your language skills must develop before you can get a first raw biographic material. If you have questions about historic Romanian figures, I’m open to answer.
Koga, 10 August 2006.
Hi! Since he ruled Wallachia....I think he was Wallachian rather than Romanian (or had Wallachian origins). And I would like to point out that the concept of Rumania didn`t exist at his time yet. Obviously Wallachians were ancesters of Romanian people. He was born in Sighişoara in 1480 which back then was part of the Hungarian Kingdom. It is hard to know his nationality based on his birthplace, since back then the Romanian population was scarce compared to the Hungarian/German population in transilvania. csabap=username 11:46 6 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Vintila Barbu 08:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I partly agree with u! People back then didn't think in nationalities. The most important was the person in charge and religion. Obviously Wallachia and Moldovians had the same religion. I agree with the language too. But politically back then they were definitly separate untill Michel the Brave was elected by the congregates of the two part. Really Wallachians are ancestors of Romanians! is
User:csabap 3:22 7 September 2006 (UTC)
From the article:
In this period, would Eastern Romance speakers south of the Danube (Aromanians, for example) have shared this ethnic identity or not? I'm just wondering if, in leaving them out, we are writing history backwards, working backwards from modern states that are based on Daco-Romanian national identity. - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
As of right now, the article states that the total number of Romanians in the world is 21 mil. + est.(something that sounds ridiculous because most other nationalities on Wikipedia do not have this “+est.” added to their total number, even though most of them are estimates anyways). However if you look closely at the Romanians in each country and you add them up, you get something close to 21.5 mil. (the only estimated number is the one for Brazil: 33.000).
Another issue is the Moldovans and the question over their inclusion in the total number of Romanians. As of right now, the article is POV since it leads the reader to believe that “Moldovans are 100% not Romanians”. This is done under the disgusting cloak that “official census data is the only data to be used” and certain pov anti-Romanian editors go as far as to block the article from being edited if someone tries to include the Moldovans. Perhaps those people have forgotten that this is an encyclopedia and that a respectable encyclopedia includes ALL points of view, even if they do not agree with them. Since a great deal of people DO include Moldovans as part of the Romanian ethos, I propose that the article be unblocked and that the total number for Moldova be given in brackets, right beside the “official data” and that the total number of Romanians be changed to correspond with the numbers in each country. Dapiks 17:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Amazing. Before we were getting absurdly high numbers (like 35 million!). Now we're getting absurdly low ones.
The notion that somehow "Romanians" (as an ethnicity) end at the river Prut seems pretty silly to me. It's like saying that a Jew in Vancouver, BC has a different ethnicity than a 300 km away Jew in Seattle, because one is an "American Jew" and the other is a "Canadian Jew".
Can't we just make it clear that in terms of numbers we are talking about a reasonably broad ethnic classification of, basically, Daco-Romanians, which includes Moldovans (but not, for example, Aromanians)? It's not like there are any magic, well-defined categories, and these matters will always require that articles discuss the penumbra of a classification. - Jmabel | Talk 07:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that there are two contradictory POVs about the Moldovans, on whether they are or not Romanians. Current version, just changed by User:Jeorjika, includes again just the POV that the Moldovans are Romanians.
I propose listing both POVs:
Any comments? bogdan 09:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a proposal as to how to handle this, but first I'll make it clear where I'm coming from.
I doubt the intellectual honesty of the claim that there is a change of ethnicity at the River Prut. I can see the case that says that all Moldavians are ethnically distinct from Wallachians, but the one that says that Romanians in Transylvania, plus Wallachians, plus those Moldavians who live in Romania are of one ethnicity—Romanians—and those Moldavians who live across the border are of a different ethnicity strikes me as mere sophistry. Now, it happens that the Moldovan government engages in this sophistry, so it is notable sophistry, but (like any other minority view) it should be noted and moved past.
Here's how I would handle it:
Note that this is not an attempt to say that all articles should handle the matter this way. In particular, the articles on Moldovans and Moldova should take this up at greater length, expanding on the controversy itself, and discussing both the theory and the politics of the matter. But this article should not. It should be here to inform a reader about the Romanians, in the sense that a typical anthropologist or demographer today would use that term, which includes Moldovans. It should also discuss that in dealing with older history, this ethnic group may be defined to include Aromanians, Megleno-Romanians, and Istro-Romanians, but that in dealing with matters since roughly the mid-19th century, these are generally considered related ethnic groups rather than part of the same ethnic group as Daco-Romanians. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
There are Moldovans that live in Romania (Moldavia) and Moldovans that live in Rep. Moldova. Both are 100% Romanian, there's no doubt in my mind. Believe me I know many Moldovans from the Republic and all of them consider themselves Romanian. Saying Moldovans aren't Romanians only plays in the hands of the communist regime in Chisinau that still stands by the history written by soviet 'scholars'. Giuseppe86 10:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Jmabel, personally, I take no position on whether Moldovans and Romanians are the same ethnicity or not, while I agree that the division is caused purely by political developments at some point of time. Nevertheless, what you suggest discounts the ethnical self-identification, an important factor. The census results in Moldova (and in Ukraine) are available. People answered who they are as they chose and these numbers should be the basis from which we proceed. If we have significant and referenced allegations of census fraud, coersion and counting falcification, we should add them as well. If those allegations would have warranted the reputable observers to call an entire census so unreliable that its numbers are totally meaningles and useless (a stament I have yet to see), we would say so, of course, and use other sources as the primary ones. If we have only occasional and isolated complaints, we can add them too, but as occasional and isolated and those won't affect the census as a whole. The only source cited for now on census criticism, putting aside any issues with this source, does not make a sweeping statement on the census numbers being totally unreliable. Note the statement "The expert group has not yet completed its work on the assessment of the census as a whole." Whatever that group is, even they made no statements recommending to disqalify in their entirety the census results, particularly on the nationalities issue.
As such, I beleive, the main number should be census based. Now, if other respectable sources state numbers that are different from census, fine, we cite those numbers too, referenced of course. But those alternative numbers have to be referenced to a respectable source that cites them as the numbers of Romanians. Wer can't have in an article a number based on the mathematical exercise of one or the other Wikipedia editor, who from time to time pops up in the article to demonstrate he can add numbers. Especially nonsensial is that those fellows add the numbers taken from the very census they claim compromised, add them and produce in their view "true results" based on a "compromised census".
For the language questions self-identification is of course less important. Linguists are qualified to judge whether two languages are in fact two names of one and the same language. But substituting people's self-identification by the opinion of antropologists is highly controversial to say the list. -- Irpen 08:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
So, in short, I gather that Britannica splits the difference: one language, two ethnicities. - Jmabel | Talk 05:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Look regarding this issue, I have something to say, as a Romanian living in Romania, in the city of Iasi (in the Romanian region of Moldova – NOT the republic, the part of ancient Moldavia that is now in Romania): I am MYSELF a Moldovan, and another 6 000 000 Romanians are Moldovans.[ |Check this out] Because this is the issue here, the fact that the communists suggest that somehow if one self-identifies as Moldovan he cannot self-identify as a Romanian. Which is false… 6000000 people who self-identify ETHNICALLY as Romanians also self-identify regionally as Moldovans. This is why the issue of the self-identification of the Moldovans in the Rep. of Moldova does not concern only themselves, it concernes also the Romanians in the Eastern part of Romania, just as the self-identification of the slavic people of FYROM as Macedonians concerns also the Greek Macedonians who idnetify themselves ethnically as Greek and sub-identify themselves regionally as Macedonians. However, the situations are not 100% similar. Because the Greeks in Greek Macedonia and the slavic so-called “Macedonians” in FYROM are unrelated peoples. However, the Romanians in the Romanian region of Moldova and the Moldovans/Romanians/whatever they are in the Republic of Moldova are closely related. For example if I cross the border I can communicate easily with anyone. Far from speaking 2 separate languages: as a Romanian speaker, I have problams understanding the Aromanian dialect but no problems at all understanding what “Moldovans” from the Rep. Of Moldova are speaking. And of course just as in the case of Macedonia there are territorrial concerns: what if Chisinau has desires concerning the Romanian region of Moldova??? Also there is the issue of the self-identification of the Romanians in the Romanian region of Moldova who have the God-given right to self-identify ethnically as Romanians, despite the fact that they self-identify regionally as Moldovans. I cannot stress this enough. And the fact that government of the Rep. of Moldova has made claims concerning the ethnicity of the Romanians living in the Romanian region of Moldova (thus concerning even my own ethnicity) makes this even a graver and more serious issue. Therefore I PROPOSE that we disambiguate the issue in the same way we do in the Macedonian naming controversy….. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.208.151.89 ( talk) 14:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I think there is no proof of the people called Dacians(correct me if I`m wrong...) (the romans called people from Dancia province Dacians, regardless of their nationality) being the ancestors af modern Romanians. After the Roman rule there were a lot of Romans that remained there, but after there was a few hundred years that we do not know anything. There were Slavic, Germanic(Gepid,Goths,), Avars, Scythians and Sarmatans. The presence of these people is proved both by references and archeology. If there is archeological proof for eg. of the Carpi...could u. help me out...I`m really interested in this complicated and fascinating time of history :)....Thanks!!! Csabap 4:00 9 Sept 2006 (UTC)
Intresting! So is it possible that Romanians are of partly of slavic origins? Ty! Csabap 05:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
In 2005 I met some hungarians in Kabul, Afghanistan. So it is possible that Hungarians are of partly of Afghani origins? Ty! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.176.228 ( talk) 19:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the last official census in 2001 (concrete results could be seen here):
1. Vlachs 10 566
2. Romanians 1 088 - Jackanapes 14:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Anittas (who is currently banned, for reasons that do not bear on his trustworthiness) sent me the image I have now uploaded as Image:Four Romanians.JPG, and suggests that it might make a better choice for the Infobox here. From left to right, Stephen III of Moldavia (Ştefan Cel Mare); composer George Enescu; scientist Victor Babeş; and jet aircraft pioneer Henri Coandă. All images should be public domain. And of course we could mix and match. Just passing it along. - Jmabel | Talk 20:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that this is just a POV-push over Stephen "as Romanian". I myself think that the idea of having any pictures, in any infobox, is sheer stupidity (as it forces people to agree on whan particular chart). If I have to chose, I say: drop all pictures of people living before 1829, not because Romanianness is necessarily flawed before that date, but because it is problematic. Dahn 21:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I will upload this image instead of the current one. I hope nobody has anything against it, I tried to include people that are well-known on both an international and a national level. There is no such thing as a perfect choice of the most representative Romanians, but in my opinion the previous image was not even close. Hopefully, this one is better. At least in my opinion it is. I included people from a fairly wide choice of fields and I ordered them chronologically.
Alexrap
22:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Looks nice to me. Good job! Turgidson 23:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Page protected. Again. Best, Mackensen (talk) 01:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
To Ronline: I cannot begin to fathom how that would be "NPOV". I too hold the view that the Moldovan ethnicity is invented, but we. have. the. fact. that. those. people. do. not. describe. themselves. as. Romanians. For God's sake: I do not have the right to tell them what they are, and this article should only refer to people that invest in the fact that they are Romanians! I mean, we don't go counting people whom we, or I, or whomever believes are Romanians, but those who declare themselves Romanians. Dahn 14:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Constantzeanu, first of all, please choose which of the two accounts Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Constantzeanu you choose to use and stick to it from now on. We can return to the issue then. -- Irpen 01:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
"In addition to these colours, each historical province of Romania has its own characteristic animal symbol: * Oltenia: Lion * Dobrogea: Dolphin * Moldavia: Aurochs/Wisent * Transylvania: Black eagle * Wallachia: Eagle The Coat of Arms of Romania combines these together."
There is an ommision here: "* Oltenia: Lion" . Although the characteristic animal of Oltenia IS a lion, the lion is also the ch. animal of Banat. As described on the presidentil web-site the lion on the coat-of arms represents both Oltenia and Banat http://www.presidency.ro/?_RID=htm&id=3&lang=en Please make the necessary changes. Thank you
Why is that we are not allowed to put an estimate for the number of Romanians. The article on Greeks and Roma people give official data as well as estimates. In our case, we are compelled to give just the official data for Romanians in Moldova and Ukraine. Why is it that the page is being blocked right now? And why can't we give estimates as well, besides the so called "official data" which some pro- Stalinist editors love so much? Jeorjika 16:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
While you are right about the Greek page, the lies and nationalist propaganda on it are a disgrace: they insist on counting as Greek the 700.000 immigrants in Greece, for example. Is it such a problem that the Romanians and Romanian pages are kept to a higher standard of integrity than the Greek ones. Ir shows that Romania has a better claim than some other countries to be in the EU, when a sense of self-discipline is visible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.103.147.55 ( talk • contribs) 28 September 2006.
They've been rampant on wikipedia: Poles, Croats, Irish people. It's not unlikely that "foreign" embassy statistics drive their numbers as high as possible. There are several reasons for this. One, most such sources tend to put emphasis on "Romanian nationals abroad" rather than Romanian ethnics. Two, they further tend to include any foreigner who can lay trace to some Romanian blood in their heritage, long after that emigre has died. So the Romanian diaspora will probably include someone who has a Romanian grandmother, perhaps even great-grandmother. If we did that for all ethnicities, we'd probably double the world's population.
Secondly, there are sources which point to a much much lower number. Joshua Project for one which stauncly includes only the most ethnic of Romanians estimates the population to be around 19 million: http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctry.php?rop3=108398&rog3=RO
We're giving the benefit of the doubt by simply totalling up as many census numbers as we can. Most such articles on wikipedia do the same. I see no reason to overestimate using possibly biased estimations. Horvat Den 06:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, you might be thinking that this number should be higher because we should include Moldovans. I definitely agree with you there. I think this whole ethnogenesis bit is a little too POV for wikipedia. There's little we can do to change that unless there's some type of mass movement to remove the population statistics on Moldovans. Otherwise, we're just repeating numbers. Horvat Den 06:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
What seems to be based on pure fantasy is the notion that the ethnic Romanian population nearly tripled over less than a century. I hope everyone here realizes that "Romanians abroad" simply refers to Romanians who are currently living/working in another country. Many of these Romanians are not citizens of those countries, and are included in the 19 million ethnic Romanian census of Romania. By including these are extra Romanians, you are counting each person twice in the census, which is hysterical to say the least. The censuses of each independent country is the only source reliable enough to come to a total ethnic Romanian population abroad. Several of the sources used for the "28 million" estimate aren't even referring to ethnic Romanians (such as the million estimate in the US). Pay attention to exactly what the sources say and don't guess. The number of 21-22 million was pretty stable until now, what sparked this huge addition of 6 million Romanians? Horvat Den 21:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Romedia includes non-ethnic Romanians into their numbers. This is a page for ETHNIC Romanians. We shouldn't make any mention of "400,000" Romanians in Canada or "1,000,000" in the US because this page runs on the idea that a Romanian is an ethnic Romanian. Horvat Den 21:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
to horvat den, the 6 million figure is derived from the source evenimentul zilei, which estimates the number of romanians in different countries. For example, they estimate that their were 600,000 romanians working abroad before the 2002 census.
Dahn, we dont know if this so called 600,000 illegal romanians were in romania in 2002, so their is no way of knowing if we are counting them twice or not. However, i would assume that not all of them would have been in romania during the census, maybe not even half of them. My fellow friends, i believe we should place the old figure back of 21 million, as that is derived from censuses. We can not give a proper estimation for the number of romanians, as a large number of them left illegaly during and after communism. ( BaNaTeaN 07:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC))
Dapiks, The Romanian article should include only primary information (eg: census), and not what the president of romania believes the figure is. BaNaTeaN
Arthur 28 October 2006
Arthur 28 October 2006
I don't know Romania's specific standards in doing its censuses, but international standards are well summarized in a UN document called Principles and recommendations for populations and housing censuses. It's a PDF, and unfortunately Google doesn't offer an HTML version.
It's actually a pretty interesting read, discussing a lot of the difficulties in getting anything like accurate (and internationally comparable) numbers. There is a lot of discussion of "place of enumeration". It discusses how a census may be based either on where a person is on one particular day or on their usual place of residence, and recommends that if a country is trying to count both, they should keep the concepts distinct and produce two sets of numbers (p.52). Hence (p.63), "the total may comprise either all usual residents of the country or all persons present in the country at the time of the census."
There are a large number of issues identified where countries may have different policies, and each should document their policies. Page 63 has an interesting listing of many classifications of people that may present difficulties with these numbers, and says that each country should be clear how they address each of 14 categories, getting down to things as subtle as "Transients on ships in harbour at the time of the census." My guess is that, with some research, one could get good information on how each relevant country handles these cases in their censuses. I bet that someone could get some good information out of this, and probably a few things worth writing about in articles about censuses. - Jmabel | Talk 05:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
May I bring to your attention that all these tallies are original research? There should be an authoritative Romanian body that counts/estimates total Romanians, accounting for all these problems mentioned by jmabel, reports somewhere in a reputable publication, and then wikipedia reports these numbers (possibly various estimates from various sources)? `' mikkanarxi 02:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, the moldoban/romanian issue must be clearly divided: you may present the total daco-romanian count, but mention that of these so many millions are reported themselves as Moldovans, whatever this may mean. `' mikkanarxi 02:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There is currently a map for Romanian grais but none for ethnic Romanians. Here is a map inhabited by Romanians, in case someone feels that it should be placed in the article. Dapiks 01:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
My oppinion: A map of majority Romanian inhabitation exists and is long accepted, under Daco-Romanian. From here, everything goes astray:
Still, I have to acknowledge that the last solution seems the only one on wikipedia (which is why I edit less and less here). What we write here resembles more a armistice convention than an encyclopedia. Dpotop 13:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
How are there 19 million people in Romania? You got to be kidding! Just look at the official site of the 2003 census, there are over 21 million! And according to the last citation of the total number, there are 10 million people living abroad. This wouldn't surprise me at all, there are almost 3 million in Moldova, a lot in Ukraine (many not even recognized by some), millions of aromanians and a lot emigrated in Spain, Italy, USA, and Canada. 19 million people in Romania and 28 million Romanians in total is stupid. But following the same difference, if we go after the normal, good, proved source, there are over 21 million people in Romania, so the estimated number adds up to 31. 35 million is stupid, it's a clear overestimate, but so is 28 (edit: just as wrong, not also an overestimate!).
I have changed the picture: the new picture was introduced by Jmabel on the talk page, and was discussed. Hopefully, the discussion about the pucture would stop the stupid edit war about the numbers. Before you edit, please, read the Talk page, try to discuss, don't just revert. Other people, unlike you, have disscussed issues and have arrived civilizedly to solutions. If you can not behave civilizedly, please do something else, give us a break from you.: Dc76 20:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Dahn,
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.
Specific examples of personal attacks include but are not limited to:
In case you want to carry this discussion further, I suggest you open a sandbox and do it there, by yourself, as I have better things to do than to answer to wave after wave of cheap sophistry.
Dahn
10:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
As I have said: enough word-twisting. Start a sandbox, I may even read it when I feel like it. Dahn 20:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The page has been fully protected until all namecalling has ceased and disputes have been resolved. Thank you. Nishkid 64 00:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
To address one point: the article should explicitly mention the view that Moldovans are a distinct ethnicity from Romanians: I find it ridiculous, but as long as it is held by the government of a sovereign state, we can't just walk away from it. We should give distinct total numbers, with and without those who are identified as "Moldovans" rather than "Romanians". Similarly for Aromanians (who are considerably more distinct than Moldovans); there really aren't enough Megleno-Romanians or Istro-Romanians to affect the worldwide total within the accuracy to which it can even imaginably be measured, but they also should be mentioned in this respect.
Constantzeanu/Dapiks: are there any specific countries that are missing from the count that you believe have even 100,000 ethnic Romanians? If so, then, yes, the number would be significantly off. Barring that, doing simple arithmetic is not objectionable original research. - Jmabel | Talk 07:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
What matters isn't whether something is sourced or not, but rather whether something is sourced CORRECTLY. All 8 references used to "source" the 28 million figure are either comlpetely irrelevant or using figures that include non-ethnic Romanians or Romanians working abroad (double counting). Further many of the sources only reach the 28 million mark if someone adds "Romanian diaspora" numbers to the current population of Romania. So I can't see why that should be allowed but the "totalling of census figures" shouldn't. The 21 million mark does not need a source because it is the total number of all recorded censuses on this page. This has nothing to do with original research - as someone mentioned its just arithmetic. The population boxes are not here to tell people how many of an ethnic group there is in the world, because that would be impossible; it is simply a rough estimate using census figures. I might agree that it is silly to have this type of estimate but nearly all ethnic group pages do it, so its become a sort of standard we can't escape. It has just become a recent phenomena by nationalists to try to boost up their ethnic group's total population. I'm not suggesting this is happening here but it might be (or at least was once). Nobody is saying that this figure is complete utter fact - we have the (est) right next to it to show that the number CAN easily be off ---- but not by 7 million. Horvat Den 02:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point to everyone's attention that a few hours ago, 66.36.157.0 put herethe following comment:
ooo yeah??? so then when we gave our official data from the Romanian goverment you all rejected it! WHY???????? If we can't walk away from official govermental datas, why did refused that??????? Arthur 23 Nov 2006
This comment was erased by User:Khoikhoi. Then, 66.36.156.91 has put it back, and commented in the subject line:
what a fuck is your problem mtf KHOIKHOI TO REVERT MY EDITS????? SUCK MY DICK
This kind of comments are offensive to everyone. I would like to point specifically, that although some of the users, me including, think that part of the coments above about usage of data has true merit, the second remark is offensive to everyone, reagrdless of POV. Dear user that put the last comment, with all due respect, you comments are way beyond those of a normal person, even in the most heated of the discussions. I would like to remind you that we try here to keep an "academic" discussion, independent from any hate or seek comments. Every person is entitled to an oppionion, and has the right to keep it, even if the oppinion might be wrong, without any personal atack, especially of such a rudeness. You forget that civilized people are able to conceed in a civilized academic discussion. The sole reason why we discuss is to reach a common ground and learn something: if we all are sure noone will conceed nothing, noone can be convinced by arguments, then we simply would not engage in the discussion in the first place. The simple fact that a person engages in a civilized discussion means that he/she wants to hear other side arguments, that he/she admits that if solid arguments are provided, he/she can change part or all of his/her oppionion. On the same tokken, he/she can strenghen his/her oppinion if arguments are more solid for hois/her POV. Everything depends of the solidness of arguments, as understood by civilized users, who are patient to read and understand even an oppinion that might be wrong.
Specifically, the comments that you put back, those signed by 66.36.157.0 will stay here, I vouch for that. They will not be errased. Whoever put them, is entitled to oppinion. Moreover, I even agree with part of those comments.
But now, let's turn to your cooments, 66.36.156.91. Unless you come here, withdraw them, and sincerely appologize for them, you don't have to be blocked, there is something worse that that: I ask everyone, simply to ignore you, never talk to you, everywhere. See how you feel then! Come here, and say something like I am sincerely sorry I put those comments, and noone will hold you for anything. I am sure Khoikhoi will not wish you "dead" for your comments. Fail to put this appology, very-very simple appology, and sorry, we have to isolate you, and refuse to talk with you, ever. It is you choice, take your time, think, and do what your conscience tells you. But know, your answer will show what kind of person you truly are. : Dc76 16:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I do not understand the selection for the image collage. 3 of the four individuals are Wallachian and one was born in Austria. I don't believe that this is the most representative view of Romanians. And Ţepeş was born before the onset of modern nationalism, so including him at all is questionable, especially considering his infamy. I would propose adding a Moldovan (or Moldavian if you want to call it that) and a Transylvanian. How about including Eminescu, Liviu Rebreanu, and Caragiale. Then the last one could be from any region, we could stick with Victor Babeş (who was born in Austria) or someone else. This way the three principalities will be represented plus a foreign-born Romanian. TSO1D 22:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
[2]: anyone have a clue? - Jmabel | Talk 00:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I have some qualms about the following sentence in that section: "Mathematican Ştefan Odobleja is considered to be the ideological father behind cybernetics." Is this an established fact? First, I am not sure how much can one consider him to have been a mathematician -- he looks like a serious scientist, but his training was in medicine, not in mathematics, and he has 0 publications listed on MathSciNet. If an example of an internationally recognized Romanian mathematician were to be picked for this section (and it does seem appropriate to do so), there surely are more adequate examples. And second, the issue of whether Odobleja iniated cybernetics is very debatable, to say the least: the consensus seems to be that Norbert Wiener was the founder of cybernetics. Maybe the history of the subject is worth exploring further, and maybe there is merit to the claim that Odobleja did some of the pioneering thinking on cybernetics, but in the meantime, why emphasize this not-clear-to-everyone contribution? Finally, on a lesser note: why use the word ideological in this context? I know, some people do, but I still find it silly. There is enough ideology floating around, why drag the word in here, too? Turgidson 04:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The number of Romanians mentioned in the article are totally wrong. In fact, they're not even close. I'm not going into disputes about the numbers of Romanians living outside Romania. Let's take a look at Romania, instead. Okay, so we have some 4-million Romanians in Moldavia and perhaps some 5.3 million in Transylvania. Let's be generous at put the number at 10 million. Where do you get the remaining 11 million from? -- Thus Spake Anittas 20:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I can only suppose that, in the above, Anittas is actually pulling everybody's legs by inducing the notion that "there are Romanians, and then there are Wallachians (and Oltenians, Dobrujans etc.)". I'm sorry for not catching on sooner, but I can only hope somebody is making note of the serious issues I raised just above, instead of wasting their time with witticisms of the type usually attributed to Wallachians. Dahn 21:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not even going to go into the WP:OR contained in the grotesquely large lead paragraph, but I am going to point out more outrageous stuff I found in the infobox alone.
I glanced through the Spanish-language material given as reference for Romanians in Spain. Granted, I may have missed the place page where the info is claimed to be, but, from what I have seen so far, it appears that not only did the person producing such evidence base his estimate on seasonal presence of workers et al., but also that he, get this, summed up the number given for several years in a row, not noticing that these may yet be the same people (who, again, were probably all counted in the Romanian census, as various ethnicities).
The "Foundation for Romanians from All Over the World", an NGO of some sort, is neither official nor scholarly, and does not reference its own data. All its estimates count both Romanian citizens and Romanian diaspora. Not only is the source dubious, but it was manipulated by some user: there is a citation given from it for the number of Romanians in either Turkey or Greece (I can't really tell, because the number shows as between the two with my display settings). This is to say that the Foundation claims either that there are 30,000 Romanians in Turkey or 29,000 in Greece (in itself, this absurd gematria is enough to catch the eye). What the citation actually says is 800 Romanians in Turkey, with no data given for Greece! For the 9,000 in Slovakia, it clearly states that the entire number refers to ethnic Slovaks who left Romania.
Both of the links for Italy are inactive, but, from the caption accompanying one of them courtesy of some editor, one can clearly see that they referred to people who are simply present in Italy, not even living there, and all of them probably counted at home, in Romania.
The number given for Kazakhstan is actually what a journalist concluded from census data. There are no clear figures for anything after 1999, but the article actually says that there are about one hundred and something Romanians and the rest up to aprox. 20,000 declares itself Moldovan. I guess we do not need citations for the alleged 100,000 in France, nor for the 20,000 in the UK, the 30,000 in Brazil etc. Nay, we're fine, right?
The one I loved most is the citation referring to Israel. It cites nothing, but is rather formulated as a warning for those readers who may be utter idiots. You see: "The number for Israel does not count 450,000 Jews of Romanian origin, who still speak Romanian." Never mind the essay-like emphasis, but this is like saying "this article is not about Bulgarians, but about Romanians". Of course it doesn't count them. And of course no other such confusion between origin/citizenship on one side and ethnicity on the other should be made. Not that I personally care about ethnicity, but, heck, what do you gentlemen think this article is about? Dahn 00:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless sound objections are voiced over the following days, I am going to remove all the misleading content from the infobox. Dahn 14:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Here we have one user who does not, in his own words, "personally care about ethnicity". But he nevertheless contributes to an article about an ethnic group. Grotesque, isn't it? Icar 12:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure Turgidson! Everybody can contribute by definition to every ethnic group article. However User:Dahn writes 15 lines above that he does not "personally care about ethnicity". In other words, he is not interested in the topic. Then why engage in edit conflicts? In fact he has a strong Trotzkist POV that he freely admits, which gives him prejudice against ethnic groups (they are not legitimate categories under Trotzkist ideology). He seems to have a particularly strong hatred of Romanians, which I find offensive. A few examples. Here he describes a well-known writer, an ethnic Hungarian citizen of Romania, as "a Romanian citizen, one of the leading Hungarian contemporary writers." Fine with me! But here a major communist figure, ethnic Hungarian, born like Suto in Austria-Hungary, who was a member of the Supreme Soviet of Ukraine, who actively fought against Romania for more than 20 years and then was one of the leaders of Soviet-occupied Romania, is described as "a Romanian communist politician". Same trick [ here]: introducing a Soviet NKVD general of Jewish ethnicity, born outside Romania, as "Romanian communist activist". Examples also include Valter Roman and Gheorghe Pintilie. In short, all the Soviet agents who became leaders of occupied Romania after WWII are disguised as "Romanian", while Suto is "Hungarian" (as he should). Why the double standard? That's what propaganda is about. Don't you find this practice abhorrent? Icar 06:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Remarkable reply. "Ethnicity is subjective"! This is precisely the type of original research, extremist POV, that should not be tolerated in WP articles. Even less on a page about ethnicity. Or should WP be allowed to become a little red treasure of Trotzkist knowledge? Icar 14:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The following problems exist.
Since this is a technical GA nom, rather than one inspired by an editor who wished to see the article reach GA status, I won't proceed with an exhaustive list of problems -- the lack of references is reason enough to fail the article, I'm afraid. I will add that the article would also benefit from some reworking of the structure; history and historical definitions of Romanian identity are probably better considered first, for example; and the subgroups might more naturally be associated with the population section. A good example article to compare to would be Macedonia (terminology), which, while not strictly comparable, has excellent organization and some good explanatory graphics. Mike Christie (talk) 20:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Romanian is an official language in Serbia's autonomous province of Vojvodina, and the article bears no mention of it... -- PaxEquilibrium 16:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Sometime in the last few weeks, "the historic Transylvanian figure of Vlad Ţepeş" became "the historic Wallachian figure of Vlad Ţepeş". Given that he was born in Sighişoara, I would have expected that the former is more correct, though I realize that he ruled for a time in Wallachia. Comments? - Jmabel | Talk 06:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC).
In fact he is a Romanian figure. He was born in Sighişoara, but giving the fact that all his purpose in life was to reign over Wallachia, you could say that he was a historic Wallachian figure. And considering his family background …
There are a lot of Romanian books on him, but I’m afraid that your language skills must develop before you can get a first raw biographic material. If you have questions about historic Romanian figures, I’m open to answer.
Koga, 10 August 2006.
Hi! Since he ruled Wallachia....I think he was Wallachian rather than Romanian (or had Wallachian origins). And I would like to point out that the concept of Rumania didn`t exist at his time yet. Obviously Wallachians were ancesters of Romanian people. He was born in Sighişoara in 1480 which back then was part of the Hungarian Kingdom. It is hard to know his nationality based on his birthplace, since back then the Romanian population was scarce compared to the Hungarian/German population in transilvania. csabap=username 11:46 6 September 2006 (UTC)
-- Vintila Barbu 08:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I partly agree with u! People back then didn't think in nationalities. The most important was the person in charge and religion. Obviously Wallachia and Moldovians had the same religion. I agree with the language too. But politically back then they were definitly separate untill Michel the Brave was elected by the congregates of the two part. Really Wallachians are ancestors of Romanians! is
User:csabap 3:22 7 September 2006 (UTC)
From the article:
In this period, would Eastern Romance speakers south of the Danube (Aromanians, for example) have shared this ethnic identity or not? I'm just wondering if, in leaving them out, we are writing history backwards, working backwards from modern states that are based on Daco-Romanian national identity. - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
As of right now, the article states that the total number of Romanians in the world is 21 mil. + est.(something that sounds ridiculous because most other nationalities on Wikipedia do not have this “+est.” added to their total number, even though most of them are estimates anyways). However if you look closely at the Romanians in each country and you add them up, you get something close to 21.5 mil. (the only estimated number is the one for Brazil: 33.000).
Another issue is the Moldovans and the question over their inclusion in the total number of Romanians. As of right now, the article is POV since it leads the reader to believe that “Moldovans are 100% not Romanians”. This is done under the disgusting cloak that “official census data is the only data to be used” and certain pov anti-Romanian editors go as far as to block the article from being edited if someone tries to include the Moldovans. Perhaps those people have forgotten that this is an encyclopedia and that a respectable encyclopedia includes ALL points of view, even if they do not agree with them. Since a great deal of people DO include Moldovans as part of the Romanian ethos, I propose that the article be unblocked and that the total number for Moldova be given in brackets, right beside the “official data” and that the total number of Romanians be changed to correspond with the numbers in each country. Dapiks 17:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Amazing. Before we were getting absurdly high numbers (like 35 million!). Now we're getting absurdly low ones.
The notion that somehow "Romanians" (as an ethnicity) end at the river Prut seems pretty silly to me. It's like saying that a Jew in Vancouver, BC has a different ethnicity than a 300 km away Jew in Seattle, because one is an "American Jew" and the other is a "Canadian Jew".
Can't we just make it clear that in terms of numbers we are talking about a reasonably broad ethnic classification of, basically, Daco-Romanians, which includes Moldovans (but not, for example, Aromanians)? It's not like there are any magic, well-defined categories, and these matters will always require that articles discuss the penumbra of a classification. - Jmabel | Talk 07:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It is clear that there are two contradictory POVs about the Moldovans, on whether they are or not Romanians. Current version, just changed by User:Jeorjika, includes again just the POV that the Moldovans are Romanians.
I propose listing both POVs:
Any comments? bogdan 09:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a proposal as to how to handle this, but first I'll make it clear where I'm coming from.
I doubt the intellectual honesty of the claim that there is a change of ethnicity at the River Prut. I can see the case that says that all Moldavians are ethnically distinct from Wallachians, but the one that says that Romanians in Transylvania, plus Wallachians, plus those Moldavians who live in Romania are of one ethnicity—Romanians—and those Moldavians who live across the border are of a different ethnicity strikes me as mere sophistry. Now, it happens that the Moldovan government engages in this sophistry, so it is notable sophistry, but (like any other minority view) it should be noted and moved past.
Here's how I would handle it:
Note that this is not an attempt to say that all articles should handle the matter this way. In particular, the articles on Moldovans and Moldova should take this up at greater length, expanding on the controversy itself, and discussing both the theory and the politics of the matter. But this article should not. It should be here to inform a reader about the Romanians, in the sense that a typical anthropologist or demographer today would use that term, which includes Moldovans. It should also discuss that in dealing with older history, this ethnic group may be defined to include Aromanians, Megleno-Romanians, and Istro-Romanians, but that in dealing with matters since roughly the mid-19th century, these are generally considered related ethnic groups rather than part of the same ethnic group as Daco-Romanians. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
There are Moldovans that live in Romania (Moldavia) and Moldovans that live in Rep. Moldova. Both are 100% Romanian, there's no doubt in my mind. Believe me I know many Moldovans from the Republic and all of them consider themselves Romanian. Saying Moldovans aren't Romanians only plays in the hands of the communist regime in Chisinau that still stands by the history written by soviet 'scholars'. Giuseppe86 10:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Jmabel, personally, I take no position on whether Moldovans and Romanians are the same ethnicity or not, while I agree that the division is caused purely by political developments at some point of time. Nevertheless, what you suggest discounts the ethnical self-identification, an important factor. The census results in Moldova (and in Ukraine) are available. People answered who they are as they chose and these numbers should be the basis from which we proceed. If we have significant and referenced allegations of census fraud, coersion and counting falcification, we should add them as well. If those allegations would have warranted the reputable observers to call an entire census so unreliable that its numbers are totally meaningles and useless (a stament I have yet to see), we would say so, of course, and use other sources as the primary ones. If we have only occasional and isolated complaints, we can add them too, but as occasional and isolated and those won't affect the census as a whole. The only source cited for now on census criticism, putting aside any issues with this source, does not make a sweeping statement on the census numbers being totally unreliable. Note the statement "The expert group has not yet completed its work on the assessment of the census as a whole." Whatever that group is, even they made no statements recommending to disqalify in their entirety the census results, particularly on the nationalities issue.
As such, I beleive, the main number should be census based. Now, if other respectable sources state numbers that are different from census, fine, we cite those numbers too, referenced of course. But those alternative numbers have to be referenced to a respectable source that cites them as the numbers of Romanians. Wer can't have in an article a number based on the mathematical exercise of one or the other Wikipedia editor, who from time to time pops up in the article to demonstrate he can add numbers. Especially nonsensial is that those fellows add the numbers taken from the very census they claim compromised, add them and produce in their view "true results" based on a "compromised census".
For the language questions self-identification is of course less important. Linguists are qualified to judge whether two languages are in fact two names of one and the same language. But substituting people's self-identification by the opinion of antropologists is highly controversial to say the list. -- Irpen 08:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
So, in short, I gather that Britannica splits the difference: one language, two ethnicities. - Jmabel | Talk 05:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Look regarding this issue, I have something to say, as a Romanian living in Romania, in the city of Iasi (in the Romanian region of Moldova – NOT the republic, the part of ancient Moldavia that is now in Romania): I am MYSELF a Moldovan, and another 6 000 000 Romanians are Moldovans.[ |Check this out] Because this is the issue here, the fact that the communists suggest that somehow if one self-identifies as Moldovan he cannot self-identify as a Romanian. Which is false… 6000000 people who self-identify ETHNICALLY as Romanians also self-identify regionally as Moldovans. This is why the issue of the self-identification of the Moldovans in the Rep. of Moldova does not concern only themselves, it concernes also the Romanians in the Eastern part of Romania, just as the self-identification of the slavic people of FYROM as Macedonians concerns also the Greek Macedonians who idnetify themselves ethnically as Greek and sub-identify themselves regionally as Macedonians. However, the situations are not 100% similar. Because the Greeks in Greek Macedonia and the slavic so-called “Macedonians” in FYROM are unrelated peoples. However, the Romanians in the Romanian region of Moldova and the Moldovans/Romanians/whatever they are in the Republic of Moldova are closely related. For example if I cross the border I can communicate easily with anyone. Far from speaking 2 separate languages: as a Romanian speaker, I have problams understanding the Aromanian dialect but no problems at all understanding what “Moldovans” from the Rep. Of Moldova are speaking. And of course just as in the case of Macedonia there are territorrial concerns: what if Chisinau has desires concerning the Romanian region of Moldova??? Also there is the issue of the self-identification of the Romanians in the Romanian region of Moldova who have the God-given right to self-identify ethnically as Romanians, despite the fact that they self-identify regionally as Moldovans. I cannot stress this enough. And the fact that government of the Rep. of Moldova has made claims concerning the ethnicity of the Romanians living in the Romanian region of Moldova (thus concerning even my own ethnicity) makes this even a graver and more serious issue. Therefore I PROPOSE that we disambiguate the issue in the same way we do in the Macedonian naming controversy….. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.208.151.89 ( talk) 14:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I think there is no proof of the people called Dacians(correct me if I`m wrong...) (the romans called people from Dancia province Dacians, regardless of their nationality) being the ancestors af modern Romanians. After the Roman rule there were a lot of Romans that remained there, but after there was a few hundred years that we do not know anything. There were Slavic, Germanic(Gepid,Goths,), Avars, Scythians and Sarmatans. The presence of these people is proved both by references and archeology. If there is archeological proof for eg. of the Carpi...could u. help me out...I`m really interested in this complicated and fascinating time of history :)....Thanks!!! Csabap 4:00 9 Sept 2006 (UTC)
Intresting! So is it possible that Romanians are of partly of slavic origins? Ty! Csabap 05:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
In 2005 I met some hungarians in Kabul, Afghanistan. So it is possible that Hungarians are of partly of Afghani origins? Ty! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.100.176.228 ( talk) 19:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the last official census in 2001 (concrete results could be seen here):
1. Vlachs 10 566
2. Romanians 1 088 - Jackanapes 14:27, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Anittas (who is currently banned, for reasons that do not bear on his trustworthiness) sent me the image I have now uploaded as Image:Four Romanians.JPG, and suggests that it might make a better choice for the Infobox here. From left to right, Stephen III of Moldavia (Ştefan Cel Mare); composer George Enescu; scientist Victor Babeş; and jet aircraft pioneer Henri Coandă. All images should be public domain. And of course we could mix and match. Just passing it along. - Jmabel | Talk 20:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that this is just a POV-push over Stephen "as Romanian". I myself think that the idea of having any pictures, in any infobox, is sheer stupidity (as it forces people to agree on whan particular chart). If I have to chose, I say: drop all pictures of people living before 1829, not because Romanianness is necessarily flawed before that date, but because it is problematic. Dahn 21:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I will upload this image instead of the current one. I hope nobody has anything against it, I tried to include people that are well-known on both an international and a national level. There is no such thing as a perfect choice of the most representative Romanians, but in my opinion the previous image was not even close. Hopefully, this one is better. At least in my opinion it is. I included people from a fairly wide choice of fields and I ordered them chronologically.
Alexrap
22:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Looks nice to me. Good job! Turgidson 23:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Page protected. Again. Best, Mackensen (talk) 01:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
To Ronline: I cannot begin to fathom how that would be "NPOV". I too hold the view that the Moldovan ethnicity is invented, but we. have. the. fact. that. those. people. do. not. describe. themselves. as. Romanians. For God's sake: I do not have the right to tell them what they are, and this article should only refer to people that invest in the fact that they are Romanians! I mean, we don't go counting people whom we, or I, or whomever believes are Romanians, but those who declare themselves Romanians. Dahn 14:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Constantzeanu, first of all, please choose which of the two accounts Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Constantzeanu you choose to use and stick to it from now on. We can return to the issue then. -- Irpen 01:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
"In addition to these colours, each historical province of Romania has its own characteristic animal symbol: * Oltenia: Lion * Dobrogea: Dolphin * Moldavia: Aurochs/Wisent * Transylvania: Black eagle * Wallachia: Eagle The Coat of Arms of Romania combines these together."
There is an ommision here: "* Oltenia: Lion" . Although the characteristic animal of Oltenia IS a lion, the lion is also the ch. animal of Banat. As described on the presidentil web-site the lion on the coat-of arms represents both Oltenia and Banat http://www.presidency.ro/?_RID=htm&id=3&lang=en Please make the necessary changes. Thank you
Why is that we are not allowed to put an estimate for the number of Romanians. The article on Greeks and Roma people give official data as well as estimates. In our case, we are compelled to give just the official data for Romanians in Moldova and Ukraine. Why is it that the page is being blocked right now? And why can't we give estimates as well, besides the so called "official data" which some pro- Stalinist editors love so much? Jeorjika 16:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
While you are right about the Greek page, the lies and nationalist propaganda on it are a disgrace: they insist on counting as Greek the 700.000 immigrants in Greece, for example. Is it such a problem that the Romanians and Romanian pages are kept to a higher standard of integrity than the Greek ones. Ir shows that Romania has a better claim than some other countries to be in the EU, when a sense of self-discipline is visible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.103.147.55 ( talk • contribs) 28 September 2006.
They've been rampant on wikipedia: Poles, Croats, Irish people. It's not unlikely that "foreign" embassy statistics drive their numbers as high as possible. There are several reasons for this. One, most such sources tend to put emphasis on "Romanian nationals abroad" rather than Romanian ethnics. Two, they further tend to include any foreigner who can lay trace to some Romanian blood in their heritage, long after that emigre has died. So the Romanian diaspora will probably include someone who has a Romanian grandmother, perhaps even great-grandmother. If we did that for all ethnicities, we'd probably double the world's population.
Secondly, there are sources which point to a much much lower number. Joshua Project for one which stauncly includes only the most ethnic of Romanians estimates the population to be around 19 million: http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctry.php?rop3=108398&rog3=RO
We're giving the benefit of the doubt by simply totalling up as many census numbers as we can. Most such articles on wikipedia do the same. I see no reason to overestimate using possibly biased estimations. Horvat Den 06:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, you might be thinking that this number should be higher because we should include Moldovans. I definitely agree with you there. I think this whole ethnogenesis bit is a little too POV for wikipedia. There's little we can do to change that unless there's some type of mass movement to remove the population statistics on Moldovans. Otherwise, we're just repeating numbers. Horvat Den 06:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
What seems to be based on pure fantasy is the notion that the ethnic Romanian population nearly tripled over less than a century. I hope everyone here realizes that "Romanians abroad" simply refers to Romanians who are currently living/working in another country. Many of these Romanians are not citizens of those countries, and are included in the 19 million ethnic Romanian census of Romania. By including these are extra Romanians, you are counting each person twice in the census, which is hysterical to say the least. The censuses of each independent country is the only source reliable enough to come to a total ethnic Romanian population abroad. Several of the sources used for the "28 million" estimate aren't even referring to ethnic Romanians (such as the million estimate in the US). Pay attention to exactly what the sources say and don't guess. The number of 21-22 million was pretty stable until now, what sparked this huge addition of 6 million Romanians? Horvat Den 21:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Romedia includes non-ethnic Romanians into their numbers. This is a page for ETHNIC Romanians. We shouldn't make any mention of "400,000" Romanians in Canada or "1,000,000" in the US because this page runs on the idea that a Romanian is an ethnic Romanian. Horvat Den 21:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
to horvat den, the 6 million figure is derived from the source evenimentul zilei, which estimates the number of romanians in different countries. For example, they estimate that their were 600,000 romanians working abroad before the 2002 census.
Dahn, we dont know if this so called 600,000 illegal romanians were in romania in 2002, so their is no way of knowing if we are counting them twice or not. However, i would assume that not all of them would have been in romania during the census, maybe not even half of them. My fellow friends, i believe we should place the old figure back of 21 million, as that is derived from censuses. We can not give a proper estimation for the number of romanians, as a large number of them left illegaly during and after communism. ( BaNaTeaN 07:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC))
Dapiks, The Romanian article should include only primary information (eg: census), and not what the president of romania believes the figure is. BaNaTeaN
Arthur 28 October 2006
Arthur 28 October 2006
I don't know Romania's specific standards in doing its censuses, but international standards are well summarized in a UN document called Principles and recommendations for populations and housing censuses. It's a PDF, and unfortunately Google doesn't offer an HTML version.
It's actually a pretty interesting read, discussing a lot of the difficulties in getting anything like accurate (and internationally comparable) numbers. There is a lot of discussion of "place of enumeration". It discusses how a census may be based either on where a person is on one particular day or on their usual place of residence, and recommends that if a country is trying to count both, they should keep the concepts distinct and produce two sets of numbers (p.52). Hence (p.63), "the total may comprise either all usual residents of the country or all persons present in the country at the time of the census."
There are a large number of issues identified where countries may have different policies, and each should document their policies. Page 63 has an interesting listing of many classifications of people that may present difficulties with these numbers, and says that each country should be clear how they address each of 14 categories, getting down to things as subtle as "Transients on ships in harbour at the time of the census." My guess is that, with some research, one could get good information on how each relevant country handles these cases in their censuses. I bet that someone could get some good information out of this, and probably a few things worth writing about in articles about censuses. - Jmabel | Talk 05:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
May I bring to your attention that all these tallies are original research? There should be an authoritative Romanian body that counts/estimates total Romanians, accounting for all these problems mentioned by jmabel, reports somewhere in a reputable publication, and then wikipedia reports these numbers (possibly various estimates from various sources)? `' mikkanarxi 02:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, the moldoban/romanian issue must be clearly divided: you may present the total daco-romanian count, but mention that of these so many millions are reported themselves as Moldovans, whatever this may mean. `' mikkanarxi 02:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There is currently a map for Romanian grais but none for ethnic Romanians. Here is a map inhabited by Romanians, in case someone feels that it should be placed in the article. Dapiks 01:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
My oppinion: A map of majority Romanian inhabitation exists and is long accepted, under Daco-Romanian. From here, everything goes astray:
Still, I have to acknowledge that the last solution seems the only one on wikipedia (which is why I edit less and less here). What we write here resembles more a armistice convention than an encyclopedia. Dpotop 13:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
How are there 19 million people in Romania? You got to be kidding! Just look at the official site of the 2003 census, there are over 21 million! And according to the last citation of the total number, there are 10 million people living abroad. This wouldn't surprise me at all, there are almost 3 million in Moldova, a lot in Ukraine (many not even recognized by some), millions of aromanians and a lot emigrated in Spain, Italy, USA, and Canada. 19 million people in Romania and 28 million Romanians in total is stupid. But following the same difference, if we go after the normal, good, proved source, there are over 21 million people in Romania, so the estimated number adds up to 31. 35 million is stupid, it's a clear overestimate, but so is 28 (edit: just as wrong, not also an overestimate!).
I have changed the picture: the new picture was introduced by Jmabel on the talk page, and was discussed. Hopefully, the discussion about the pucture would stop the stupid edit war about the numbers. Before you edit, please, read the Talk page, try to discuss, don't just revert. Other people, unlike you, have disscussed issues and have arrived civilizedly to solutions. If you can not behave civilizedly, please do something else, give us a break from you.: Dc76 20:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Dahn,
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.
Specific examples of personal attacks include but are not limited to:
In case you want to carry this discussion further, I suggest you open a sandbox and do it there, by yourself, as I have better things to do than to answer to wave after wave of cheap sophistry.
Dahn
10:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
As I have said: enough word-twisting. Start a sandbox, I may even read it when I feel like it. Dahn 20:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The page has been fully protected until all namecalling has ceased and disputes have been resolved. Thank you. Nishkid 64 00:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
To address one point: the article should explicitly mention the view that Moldovans are a distinct ethnicity from Romanians: I find it ridiculous, but as long as it is held by the government of a sovereign state, we can't just walk away from it. We should give distinct total numbers, with and without those who are identified as "Moldovans" rather than "Romanians". Similarly for Aromanians (who are considerably more distinct than Moldovans); there really aren't enough Megleno-Romanians or Istro-Romanians to affect the worldwide total within the accuracy to which it can even imaginably be measured, but they also should be mentioned in this respect.
Constantzeanu/Dapiks: are there any specific countries that are missing from the count that you believe have even 100,000 ethnic Romanians? If so, then, yes, the number would be significantly off. Barring that, doing simple arithmetic is not objectionable original research. - Jmabel | Talk 07:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
What matters isn't whether something is sourced or not, but rather whether something is sourced CORRECTLY. All 8 references used to "source" the 28 million figure are either comlpetely irrelevant or using figures that include non-ethnic Romanians or Romanians working abroad (double counting). Further many of the sources only reach the 28 million mark if someone adds "Romanian diaspora" numbers to the current population of Romania. So I can't see why that should be allowed but the "totalling of census figures" shouldn't. The 21 million mark does not need a source because it is the total number of all recorded censuses on this page. This has nothing to do with original research - as someone mentioned its just arithmetic. The population boxes are not here to tell people how many of an ethnic group there is in the world, because that would be impossible; it is simply a rough estimate using census figures. I might agree that it is silly to have this type of estimate but nearly all ethnic group pages do it, so its become a sort of standard we can't escape. It has just become a recent phenomena by nationalists to try to boost up their ethnic group's total population. I'm not suggesting this is happening here but it might be (or at least was once). Nobody is saying that this figure is complete utter fact - we have the (est) right next to it to show that the number CAN easily be off ---- but not by 7 million. Horvat Den 02:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point to everyone's attention that a few hours ago, 66.36.157.0 put herethe following comment:
ooo yeah??? so then when we gave our official data from the Romanian goverment you all rejected it! WHY???????? If we can't walk away from official govermental datas, why did refused that??????? Arthur 23 Nov 2006
This comment was erased by User:Khoikhoi. Then, 66.36.156.91 has put it back, and commented in the subject line:
what a fuck is your problem mtf KHOIKHOI TO REVERT MY EDITS????? SUCK MY DICK
This kind of comments are offensive to everyone. I would like to point specifically, that although some of the users, me including, think that part of the coments above about usage of data has true merit, the second remark is offensive to everyone, reagrdless of POV. Dear user that put the last comment, with all due respect, you comments are way beyond those of a normal person, even in the most heated of the discussions. I would like to remind you that we try here to keep an "academic" discussion, independent from any hate or seek comments. Every person is entitled to an oppionion, and has the right to keep it, even if the oppinion might be wrong, without any personal atack, especially of such a rudeness. You forget that civilized people are able to conceed in a civilized academic discussion. The sole reason why we discuss is to reach a common ground and learn something: if we all are sure noone will conceed nothing, noone can be convinced by arguments, then we simply would not engage in the discussion in the first place. The simple fact that a person engages in a civilized discussion means that he/she wants to hear other side arguments, that he/she admits that if solid arguments are provided, he/she can change part or all of his/her oppionion. On the same tokken, he/she can strenghen his/her oppinion if arguments are more solid for hois/her POV. Everything depends of the solidness of arguments, as understood by civilized users, who are patient to read and understand even an oppinion that might be wrong.
Specifically, the comments that you put back, those signed by 66.36.157.0 will stay here, I vouch for that. They will not be errased. Whoever put them, is entitled to oppinion. Moreover, I even agree with part of those comments.
But now, let's turn to your cooments, 66.36.156.91. Unless you come here, withdraw them, and sincerely appologize for them, you don't have to be blocked, there is something worse that that: I ask everyone, simply to ignore you, never talk to you, everywhere. See how you feel then! Come here, and say something like I am sincerely sorry I put those comments, and noone will hold you for anything. I am sure Khoikhoi will not wish you "dead" for your comments. Fail to put this appology, very-very simple appology, and sorry, we have to isolate you, and refuse to talk with you, ever. It is you choice, take your time, think, and do what your conscience tells you. But know, your answer will show what kind of person you truly are. : Dc76 16:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I do not understand the selection for the image collage. 3 of the four individuals are Wallachian and one was born in Austria. I don't believe that this is the most representative view of Romanians. And Ţepeş was born before the onset of modern nationalism, so including him at all is questionable, especially considering his infamy. I would propose adding a Moldovan (or Moldavian if you want to call it that) and a Transylvanian. How about including Eminescu, Liviu Rebreanu, and Caragiale. Then the last one could be from any region, we could stick with Victor Babeş (who was born in Austria) or someone else. This way the three principalities will be represented plus a foreign-born Romanian. TSO1D 22:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
[2]: anyone have a clue? - Jmabel | Talk 00:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I have some qualms about the following sentence in that section: "Mathematican Ştefan Odobleja is considered to be the ideological father behind cybernetics." Is this an established fact? First, I am not sure how much can one consider him to have been a mathematician -- he looks like a serious scientist, but his training was in medicine, not in mathematics, and he has 0 publications listed on MathSciNet. If an example of an internationally recognized Romanian mathematician were to be picked for this section (and it does seem appropriate to do so), there surely are more adequate examples. And second, the issue of whether Odobleja iniated cybernetics is very debatable, to say the least: the consensus seems to be that Norbert Wiener was the founder of cybernetics. Maybe the history of the subject is worth exploring further, and maybe there is merit to the claim that Odobleja did some of the pioneering thinking on cybernetics, but in the meantime, why emphasize this not-clear-to-everyone contribution? Finally, on a lesser note: why use the word ideological in this context? I know, some people do, but I still find it silly. There is enough ideology floating around, why drag the word in here, too? Turgidson 04:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The number of Romanians mentioned in the article are totally wrong. In fact, they're not even close. I'm not going into disputes about the numbers of Romanians living outside Romania. Let's take a look at Romania, instead. Okay, so we have some 4-million Romanians in Moldavia and perhaps some 5.3 million in Transylvania. Let's be generous at put the number at 10 million. Where do you get the remaining 11 million from? -- Thus Spake Anittas 20:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I can only suppose that, in the above, Anittas is actually pulling everybody's legs by inducing the notion that "there are Romanians, and then there are Wallachians (and Oltenians, Dobrujans etc.)". I'm sorry for not catching on sooner, but I can only hope somebody is making note of the serious issues I raised just above, instead of wasting their time with witticisms of the type usually attributed to Wallachians. Dahn 21:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not even going to go into the WP:OR contained in the grotesquely large lead paragraph, but I am going to point out more outrageous stuff I found in the infobox alone.
I glanced through the Spanish-language material given as reference for Romanians in Spain. Granted, I may have missed the place page where the info is claimed to be, but, from what I have seen so far, it appears that not only did the person producing such evidence base his estimate on seasonal presence of workers et al., but also that he, get this, summed up the number given for several years in a row, not noticing that these may yet be the same people (who, again, were probably all counted in the Romanian census, as various ethnicities).
The "Foundation for Romanians from All Over the World", an NGO of some sort, is neither official nor scholarly, and does not reference its own data. All its estimates count both Romanian citizens and Romanian diaspora. Not only is the source dubious, but it was manipulated by some user: there is a citation given from it for the number of Romanians in either Turkey or Greece (I can't really tell, because the number shows as between the two with my display settings). This is to say that the Foundation claims either that there are 30,000 Romanians in Turkey or 29,000 in Greece (in itself, this absurd gematria is enough to catch the eye). What the citation actually says is 800 Romanians in Turkey, with no data given for Greece! For the 9,000 in Slovakia, it clearly states that the entire number refers to ethnic Slovaks who left Romania.
Both of the links for Italy are inactive, but, from the caption accompanying one of them courtesy of some editor, one can clearly see that they referred to people who are simply present in Italy, not even living there, and all of them probably counted at home, in Romania.
The number given for Kazakhstan is actually what a journalist concluded from census data. There are no clear figures for anything after 1999, but the article actually says that there are about one hundred and something Romanians and the rest up to aprox. 20,000 declares itself Moldovan. I guess we do not need citations for the alleged 100,000 in France, nor for the 20,000 in the UK, the 30,000 in Brazil etc. Nay, we're fine, right?
The one I loved most is the citation referring to Israel. It cites nothing, but is rather formulated as a warning for those readers who may be utter idiots. You see: "The number for Israel does not count 450,000 Jews of Romanian origin, who still speak Romanian." Never mind the essay-like emphasis, but this is like saying "this article is not about Bulgarians, but about Romanians". Of course it doesn't count them. And of course no other such confusion between origin/citizenship on one side and ethnicity on the other should be made. Not that I personally care about ethnicity, but, heck, what do you gentlemen think this article is about? Dahn 00:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless sound objections are voiced over the following days, I am going to remove all the misleading content from the infobox. Dahn 14:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Here we have one user who does not, in his own words, "personally care about ethnicity". But he nevertheless contributes to an article about an ethnic group. Grotesque, isn't it? Icar 12:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure Turgidson! Everybody can contribute by definition to every ethnic group article. However User:Dahn writes 15 lines above that he does not "personally care about ethnicity". In other words, he is not interested in the topic. Then why engage in edit conflicts? In fact he has a strong Trotzkist POV that he freely admits, which gives him prejudice against ethnic groups (they are not legitimate categories under Trotzkist ideology). He seems to have a particularly strong hatred of Romanians, which I find offensive. A few examples. Here he describes a well-known writer, an ethnic Hungarian citizen of Romania, as "a Romanian citizen, one of the leading Hungarian contemporary writers." Fine with me! But here a major communist figure, ethnic Hungarian, born like Suto in Austria-Hungary, who was a member of the Supreme Soviet of Ukraine, who actively fought against Romania for more than 20 years and then was one of the leaders of Soviet-occupied Romania, is described as "a Romanian communist politician". Same trick [ here]: introducing a Soviet NKVD general of Jewish ethnicity, born outside Romania, as "Romanian communist activist". Examples also include Valter Roman and Gheorghe Pintilie. In short, all the Soviet agents who became leaders of occupied Romania after WWII are disguised as "Romanian", while Suto is "Hungarian" (as he should). Why the double standard? That's what propaganda is about. Don't you find this practice abhorrent? Icar 06:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Remarkable reply. "Ethnicity is subjective"! This is precisely the type of original research, extremist POV, that should not be tolerated in WP articles. Even less on a page about ethnicity. Or should WP be allowed to become a little red treasure of Trotzkist knowledge? Icar 14:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The following problems exist.
Since this is a technical GA nom, rather than one inspired by an editor who wished to see the article reach GA status, I won't proceed with an exhaustive list of problems -- the lack of references is reason enough to fail the article, I'm afraid. I will add that the article would also benefit from some reworking of the structure; history and historical definitions of Romanian identity are probably better considered first, for example; and the subgroups might more naturally be associated with the population section. A good example article to compare to would be Macedonia (terminology), which, while not strictly comparable, has excellent organization and some good explanatory graphics. Mike Christie (talk) 20:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Romanian is an official language in Serbia's autonomous province of Vojvodina, and the article bears no mention of it... -- PaxEquilibrium 16:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)