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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
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article contribs).
Why are there two duplicate articles - Roman Consul and Consul - they should be merged! Mgoodyear ( talk) 01:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Weird it has not been merged by now. /info/en/?search=User:EmilePersaud 03:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
To say that the expuslion of Tarquinius Superbus is "mythical" is, I think, I a bit much. The expulsion of the Tarquinian king may or may not be a legendary account, but it hasn't definately been proven to be mythical. I suggest "semi-legendary" as a suitable comprimise. Corbmobile 11:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Who would elect / vote for the consuls? In the pre-Empire era / late-Republic era, would they be elected by the Senate or by patricians / plebians directly?
-- 88.96.187.237 21:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
David Shotter in his The Fall of the Roman Republic (Routledge, 2nd Ed.) says that "In the republic's 'mixed constitution' the monarchic element was represented by the magistracy (principally the consulship) [...]" (see pp. 6-7). How does one reconcile this statement with a yearly election of Consuls and the limited number of Consul reappointments ?
128.141.29.227 13:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This work [1] says the title was not abolished in 541. The successors of Justinian still declared themselves consuls January 1 each year and it was emperor Leo VI the Wise who banned the title. For example here [2] you can see a consular issue of a Tiberius II coin of 579 where he is depicted in a consular uniform.-- Dojarca 12:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
In fact the Byzantine equivalent to consul, hypatos was used long through Byzantine history and was always popular. It never fall out of use and never was unified with the emperor's office. Just the opposite, it was given to such a number of people that its prestige deraded. There were numerous hypatos'es at any ginen time in Byzantium. Several Italian duces also received the title from the Byzantine emperor. It seems that the title never was abolished.-- Dojarca ( talk) 19:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Hiberniantears restored unsourced (for more than year!) sentence As a result, after the formal end of the Roman Empire in the West, many years would be named for only a single consul. This is not only unsourced, but also wrong: there was no formal end of the western Roman empire, after the commonly accepted date for the end of it, many times still were appointed two consuls, not only one. Constans II also was not the last to become consul and it is not evident that appointment of Charles Martell a consul would promote to a conflict with the emperor.-- Dojarca ( talk) 17:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Please back your edits with sources.-- Dojarca ( talk) 17:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
From our discussion about these edits on Dojarca's talk page:
What is more, from your edits, as well as a gap in editing during October and November, it is pretty clear to me that you're a sockpuppet of User:Certh, or Certh was a puppet of you. Stick with making the stronger edits you make which are not related to this tendentious consul hangup of your's. Just a little background: Dojarca departs from Wikipedia on October 16 after Certh opens a mediation cabal case to discuss/complain about my changing of the same content about which you are complaining to me today. In my first edit to that page, also on October 16, I note the similarity between Certh and Dojarca. Certh then gets himself blocked on November 4th, and Dojarca returns later that day. Hiberniantears ( talk) 17:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully this lends some background to anyone happening upon this discussion. Hiberniantears ( talk) 18:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Having looked into the matter, I see that the disputed content is indeed unsourced. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Uncited material is tolerable only when it is uncontroversial - to restore original research that has been removed for lack of citations is unacceptable. The disputed line had been marked as needing a reference since February 2007. There is no excuse for including it. Furthermore, when the factual accuracy of an article is clearly in dispute, it is extremely poor form to revert a user adding a {{ disputed}} tag and label their doing so as vandalism. Dojarca ( talk · contribs) may or may not be a sock, but until they are proven to be one, they ought to be treated with the respect all editors deserve, and switching the goalposts in a content dispute to focus on sockpuppetry is a cheap move. Frankly, administrator's are expected to conduct themselves better than this. Sincerely, the skomorokh 18:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
"[A]ccurate but unsourced material"..."The west did not exist after that point. End of story". Are you serious? You know how Wikipedia works, Hiberniantears. If something is so obviously accurate, find a source for it - full stop. the skomorokh 18:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This is not the sort of thing that would be difficult to source. It also would not be the end of the world if Wikipedia said nothing until someone gets a source. Dejvid ( talk) 10:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree that sources should be provided for the disputed comments; if they are suitably verifiable this shouldn't be too difficult. Either omission or tags would be appropriate until this is done. HTH. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 18:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The following statement is confused: "Under the laws of the Republic, the minimum age of election to consul for patricians was 41 years of age. (This is because only patricians were allowed to be consuls)." How is being a patrician related to age? The age requirement has a separate history pertaining to the cursus honorum and was probably affected in the Late Republic by the "reforms" of Sulla. I moved the age reference to the section on the career track; the history of plebeian consuls is addressed elsewhere. In general, the article has a confused and often strangely non-neutral stance on long-dead political issues: "monopolized by a political elite" betrays a certain resentment. I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the change of law meant one consul each year had to be a plebeian, with the result that in many years, especially as the patriciate waned in the Late Republic, both consuls were plebeians. Cynwolfe ( talk) 16:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I removed this, the final sentence of the intro:
"This political office was not unique to the Roman Republic; in fact, Thucydides (c. 460 B.C. – c. 395 B.C.) narrates, in the History of the Peloponnesian War, about the Caoni, "a people who don't recognize the authority of a king, that was ruled, in accordance of a year lasting office, by Fozio and Nicarone, member of a dominant family" (book II, 80)." (The ref would be clearer with three figures: 2.80.5)
The quote is a bit of a mistranslation (and with Italian versions for the names: Chaonians, Photios, Nicanor): rather than "were ruled by" Thuc talks of a Chaonian contingent being "lead by" i.e. on that occason: it is not framed as a constitutional overview but explains the status of the commanders. Probably a summary extracting the wanted information would be better than a quote: direct quotation should not be recast to suit its new context. Anyway I don't think it belongs in the intro. Parallel institutions from other Italian cities would be more relevant. If that was discussed the Thuc. passage could be brought in, but by itself it's a bit of a sore thumb. (Thuc. says the two men come from an "archikon genos", a ruling clan/family, which sounds rather different from the Roman situation.) Flounderer ( talk) 05:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I find this confusing: "Holding the consulship was a great honor and the office was the major symbol of the still republican constitution." A situation can't be republican and imperial at the same time, or what is meant by "still"? JMK ( talk) 20:33, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
, with Anicius Faustus Albinus Basilius. Consular dating had already been abolished in 537, when Justinian introduced dating by the emperor's regnal year and the indiction.[4] The appointment to consulship became a part of the rite of proclamation of a new emperor from Justin II (r. 565–578) on, and is last attested in the proclamation of the future Constans II (r. 641–668) as consul in 632.[5] In the early 9th century, when Emperor Leo the Wise (r. 886–912) finally abolished consular dating with Novel 94.
This article says: In 305 BC the name of the office was changed to consul. / I think, it is WRONG! Wikipedia also says: The praetorship was created in around 367–366 BC to take over part of the duties of the consuls. (on Praetor article)/ And here it says: Expulsion of the monarchy results in creation of the joint offices of consul. (Originally titled praetor and re-identified as consul with the introduction of the newly defined office of praetor in 367 BC). http://www.unrv.com/government/legal-institutional-chronology.php Böri ( talk) 10:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I think the article should be reorganised chronologically rather than functionally. Currently, it has a History section first, then the powers and responsibilities section divided by period. This should be flipped. It should be Republican role, then Imperial role, then history. What is important in the article is understanding what the consulship was. Doing this will also require some – probably major – rewrites. Ifly6 ( talk) 16:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
At some point the redirect from junior consul here got its content entirely deleted. Fair enough if it overstated the case but we need something on the minor difference between the prior/senior/chief consul and the posterior/junior/second consul, even if it's just cut-and-pasting the content and sources from List of Roman consuls. — LlywelynII 04:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
BsKulp (
article contribs).
Why are there two duplicate articles - Roman Consul and Consul - they should be merged! Mgoodyear ( talk) 01:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Weird it has not been merged by now. /info/en/?search=User:EmilePersaud 03:37, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
To say that the expuslion of Tarquinius Superbus is "mythical" is, I think, I a bit much. The expulsion of the Tarquinian king may or may not be a legendary account, but it hasn't definately been proven to be mythical. I suggest "semi-legendary" as a suitable comprimise. Corbmobile 11:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Who would elect / vote for the consuls? In the pre-Empire era / late-Republic era, would they be elected by the Senate or by patricians / plebians directly?
-- 88.96.187.237 21:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
David Shotter in his The Fall of the Roman Republic (Routledge, 2nd Ed.) says that "In the republic's 'mixed constitution' the monarchic element was represented by the magistracy (principally the consulship) [...]" (see pp. 6-7). How does one reconcile this statement with a yearly election of Consuls and the limited number of Consul reappointments ?
128.141.29.227 13:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This work [1] says the title was not abolished in 541. The successors of Justinian still declared themselves consuls January 1 each year and it was emperor Leo VI the Wise who banned the title. For example here [2] you can see a consular issue of a Tiberius II coin of 579 where he is depicted in a consular uniform.-- Dojarca 12:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
In fact the Byzantine equivalent to consul, hypatos was used long through Byzantine history and was always popular. It never fall out of use and never was unified with the emperor's office. Just the opposite, it was given to such a number of people that its prestige deraded. There were numerous hypatos'es at any ginen time in Byzantium. Several Italian duces also received the title from the Byzantine emperor. It seems that the title never was abolished.-- Dojarca ( talk) 19:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Hiberniantears restored unsourced (for more than year!) sentence As a result, after the formal end of the Roman Empire in the West, many years would be named for only a single consul. This is not only unsourced, but also wrong: there was no formal end of the western Roman empire, after the commonly accepted date for the end of it, many times still were appointed two consuls, not only one. Constans II also was not the last to become consul and it is not evident that appointment of Charles Martell a consul would promote to a conflict with the emperor.-- Dojarca ( talk) 17:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Please back your edits with sources.-- Dojarca ( talk) 17:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
From our discussion about these edits on Dojarca's talk page:
What is more, from your edits, as well as a gap in editing during October and November, it is pretty clear to me that you're a sockpuppet of User:Certh, or Certh was a puppet of you. Stick with making the stronger edits you make which are not related to this tendentious consul hangup of your's. Just a little background: Dojarca departs from Wikipedia on October 16 after Certh opens a mediation cabal case to discuss/complain about my changing of the same content about which you are complaining to me today. In my first edit to that page, also on October 16, I note the similarity between Certh and Dojarca. Certh then gets himself blocked on November 4th, and Dojarca returns later that day. Hiberniantears ( talk) 17:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully this lends some background to anyone happening upon this discussion. Hiberniantears ( talk) 18:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Having looked into the matter, I see that the disputed content is indeed unsourced. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Uncited material is tolerable only when it is uncontroversial - to restore original research that has been removed for lack of citations is unacceptable. The disputed line had been marked as needing a reference since February 2007. There is no excuse for including it. Furthermore, when the factual accuracy of an article is clearly in dispute, it is extremely poor form to revert a user adding a {{ disputed}} tag and label their doing so as vandalism. Dojarca ( talk · contribs) may or may not be a sock, but until they are proven to be one, they ought to be treated with the respect all editors deserve, and switching the goalposts in a content dispute to focus on sockpuppetry is a cheap move. Frankly, administrator's are expected to conduct themselves better than this. Sincerely, the skomorokh 18:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
"[A]ccurate but unsourced material"..."The west did not exist after that point. End of story". Are you serious? You know how Wikipedia works, Hiberniantears. If something is so obviously accurate, find a source for it - full stop. the skomorokh 18:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This is not the sort of thing that would be difficult to source. It also would not be the end of the world if Wikipedia said nothing until someone gets a source. Dejvid ( talk) 10:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree that sources should be provided for the disputed comments; if they are suitably verifiable this shouldn't be too difficult. Either omission or tags would be appropriate until this is done. HTH. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 18:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The following statement is confused: "Under the laws of the Republic, the minimum age of election to consul for patricians was 41 years of age. (This is because only patricians were allowed to be consuls)." How is being a patrician related to age? The age requirement has a separate history pertaining to the cursus honorum and was probably affected in the Late Republic by the "reforms" of Sulla. I moved the age reference to the section on the career track; the history of plebeian consuls is addressed elsewhere. In general, the article has a confused and often strangely non-neutral stance on long-dead political issues: "monopolized by a political elite" betrays a certain resentment. I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the change of law meant one consul each year had to be a plebeian, with the result that in many years, especially as the patriciate waned in the Late Republic, both consuls were plebeians. Cynwolfe ( talk) 16:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I removed this, the final sentence of the intro:
"This political office was not unique to the Roman Republic; in fact, Thucydides (c. 460 B.C. – c. 395 B.C.) narrates, in the History of the Peloponnesian War, about the Caoni, "a people who don't recognize the authority of a king, that was ruled, in accordance of a year lasting office, by Fozio and Nicarone, member of a dominant family" (book II, 80)." (The ref would be clearer with three figures: 2.80.5)
The quote is a bit of a mistranslation (and with Italian versions for the names: Chaonians, Photios, Nicanor): rather than "were ruled by" Thuc talks of a Chaonian contingent being "lead by" i.e. on that occason: it is not framed as a constitutional overview but explains the status of the commanders. Probably a summary extracting the wanted information would be better than a quote: direct quotation should not be recast to suit its new context. Anyway I don't think it belongs in the intro. Parallel institutions from other Italian cities would be more relevant. If that was discussed the Thuc. passage could be brought in, but by itself it's a bit of a sore thumb. (Thuc. says the two men come from an "archikon genos", a ruling clan/family, which sounds rather different from the Roman situation.) Flounderer ( talk) 05:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I find this confusing: "Holding the consulship was a great honor and the office was the major symbol of the still republican constitution." A situation can't be republican and imperial at the same time, or what is meant by "still"? JMK ( talk) 20:33, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
, with Anicius Faustus Albinus Basilius. Consular dating had already been abolished in 537, when Justinian introduced dating by the emperor's regnal year and the indiction.[4] The appointment to consulship became a part of the rite of proclamation of a new emperor from Justin II (r. 565–578) on, and is last attested in the proclamation of the future Constans II (r. 641–668) as consul in 632.[5] In the early 9th century, when Emperor Leo the Wise (r. 886–912) finally abolished consular dating with Novel 94.
This article says: In 305 BC the name of the office was changed to consul. / I think, it is WRONG! Wikipedia also says: The praetorship was created in around 367–366 BC to take over part of the duties of the consuls. (on Praetor article)/ And here it says: Expulsion of the monarchy results in creation of the joint offices of consul. (Originally titled praetor and re-identified as consul with the introduction of the newly defined office of praetor in 367 BC). http://www.unrv.com/government/legal-institutional-chronology.php Böri ( talk) 10:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I think the article should be reorganised chronologically rather than functionally. Currently, it has a History section first, then the powers and responsibilities section divided by period. This should be flipped. It should be Republican role, then Imperial role, then history. What is important in the article is understanding what the consulship was. Doing this will also require some – probably major – rewrites. Ifly6 ( talk) 16:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
At some point the redirect from junior consul here got its content entirely deleted. Fair enough if it overstated the case but we need something on the minor difference between the prior/senior/chief consul and the posterior/junior/second consul, even if it's just cut-and-pasting the content and sources from List of Roman consuls. — LlywelynII 04:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)