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I removed the vanity warning since I, not Bob Murphy, created this Wikipedia article about Murphy, an arguably notable economist and Libertarian theorist. DickClarkMises 06:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll vouch for Bob being an important commentator in radical libertarian spheres. I was also wondering if we should add a note about his religious beliefs, as they often play a major role in his writings for LewRockwell.com. Atripodi 09:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone disagree with me at this point that we should consider AfD for this article. It barely passes any semblance of muster. Has this been discussed previously? I note that Mises affiliate DickClarkMises called Murphy "arguably notable" seven years ago and I don't see anything in the article that clearly establishes his notability. Thoughts? SPECIFICO talk 00:49, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
could someone add secondary sources? currently references are mostly reviews of his books. 216.80.119.92 ( talk) 19:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Should a section be included regarding his debate challenge to Paul Krugman? I'm happy to write the section, but being a new to Wikipedia, I'm opening this for discussion before adding. Jtropeano ( talk) 18:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Hey. I know the OR isn't welcomed, but don't you think an illustration of how badly Murphy lost the bet (the change CPI would've had to have been more than 150% greater than it was in the highest year of change for him to have one) is relevant? (Murphy himself concedes this, btw). Steeletrap ( talk) 17:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Srich, I think that bit about stockpiling metals should remain in the article. Reason: Murphy was employed as an investment analyst at Laffer & Co. so this advice continues a thread in his work. Please consider re-inserting. SPECIFICO talk 23:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
On a related note, I just made a change to the criticism part contextualizing the main point of Murphy's 2009 article in The American Conservative: namely, that it is "entirely plausible" that the US Dollar may be abandoned entirely by the end of Obama's Presidency. (He specifically and non-facetiously mentions the (conspiracy-theorized) "amero" currency as a possible candidate to replace it) Maybe the stuff about stockpiling physical metals (to bury in one's yard..? :P ) could fit here. Steeletrap ( talk) 05:48, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Most (all?) of this section's claims appear to be partly or entirely normative, e.g. Murphy's views that law should be privatized and that Leftist are "cynical, bitter people." "Economics" is a social science, and as such is positive rather than normative. Thus I changed "economic beliefs" to "Moral and Political Beliefs." Someone interested in improving this article should note some value-free contributions Murphy has made to economic theory (as opposed to paraphrasing his normative defense of anarcho-capitalism). Steeletrap ( talk) 23:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
False sounds like a misrepresntation of fact. Erroneous? What is your concern about Srich's "wager..."? I am comfortable with the sourcing of the text and agree that it should not be removed again without prior consensus to do so. SPECIFICO talk 22:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Steeletrap ( talk) 23:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
@Srich - I checked your statement that Steele's edit changed a version which had remained stable for six months. That is not true. In fact the stable version was "incorrect inflation prediction" and the Bold edit was DGG's on Oct. 1, 2013. Steele then did her revert, and you should have gone to talk for discussion rather than re-inserting DGG's version. You may not like me to remind you of this, but it's really important to be accurate in your statements here -- particularly if they are bundled with little "reminders" about Sanctions. If other editors feel that they need to check your statements of straightforward facts such as edit histories it wastes a lot of editor time and attention and dilutes the collaboration we are trying to sustain here. Please reflect. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
User:A_Quest_For_Knowledge says that the inclusion of the J. Bradford DeLong and David Henderson expert (economist) blogs is improper because they used to source facts about Murphy. I ask: which facts? The fact that Murphy made an incorrect prediction is drawn from Murphy himself (and the NYT). The (expert) blogs are just evaluating his (already established) methodologies/predictions, rather than making factual assertions about him. I understand this exchange got a bit heated on the ANI, so I will AGF and ask AQFK to do the same while expressing their views. Steeletrap ( talk) 04:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I see Brad DeLong and Paul Krugman being added again. The particular Murphy material is SPS, and it names, in its' title, third persons. Leaving out/redacting names is impossible. The SPS policy is about the source, not about how it might be incorporated into the text. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:40, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
These edits are abundantly well-sourced and accepted without objection by most editors on this page. Deleting it wholesale is unacceptable without significant discussion and attempt to reach consensus. Discussions about the neutrality of the edits are welcome, though they strike me as straight-forward paraphrases of claims made in the sources. Steeletrap ( talk) 23:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
I've tagged the section as undue. Murphy's a finance/econ guy (of whatever sort) and putting in a whole section devoted to his "denialist beliefs" isn't encyclopedic. So what if he's written about his beliefs? LewRockwell.com has given him a platform, but we don't need to crucify him or praise him either way for using it. In any event, labeling his beliefs as "denialism", with links, is wrong. – S. Rich ( talk) 19:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Rich, this is a pretty simple matter. Murphy rejects or is "skeptical" of the notion that human beings evolved from lower organisms. Is this denialism? Numerous RS, including Wikipedia's page on denialism, say so. Thus we indicate that Murphy is a denialist. Steeletrap ( talk) 07:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Again, where is the RS that describes Murphy as a denialist? There is a difference between having religious beliefs and denialism. Consider, you have a userbox that refers to Ashkenazi Jews heritage, but you are an atheist. Does that make you a "religious denialist" or "Judaism denialist" or "Torah denialist". Like-wise, are people who adhere to their faith "evolution denialists" or "astronomy denialists" (who stopped the Sun in the sky?) or "medical science denialists" (lots of miracles and medical impossibilities are described in the Bible), etc.? You, Steele, made the tie-in to Holocaust and AIDs denialism. And you added a WP:EGG link that redirected to Creation–evolution controversy. But that article does not use the term "denialism" or "denialist". I urge you to review WP:PUSH#Examples. – S. Rich ( talk) 18:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
While you have not mentioned it, perhaps the example of how WP is handling global warming will help. We have articles on Global warming, Scientific opinion on climate change, Public opinion on climate change, Media coverage of climate change, the Global warming controversy, and Climate change denial. If there was RS which reported that Murphy (or any other non-scientist) was skeptical about aspects of global warming, which would be the most appropriate link to use? Consider, suppose he says "I don't think global warming is a problem at present because I'm confident that scientific progress and innovation will be successful in overcoming the adverse aspects of global warming." Or maybe he says "The measures proposed to counteract global warming will be too small and too late to have a beneficial impact, but will harm the economy and lives of millions of people." Or he might say "I'm not convinced that global warming is taking place because I see stuff in the scientific literature that shows the earth has had many such cycles of warming and cooling." Regardless of which hypothetical statement Murphy utters, how would we characterize it? Do we make him out to be a "global warming denialist"? (Indeed, is there an " -ism" for global warming?) We might disagree with the fact that Murphy is skeptical about evolution, but so what? His comments have had insignificant impact on the creation-evolution controversy and it would be improper for us to include his views in the C-E controversy article (and related articles). Along the same lines, we cannot be characterizing his religious beliefs as an anti-science "-ism", or describe him as an adherent (e.g., an " -ist") to any such beliefs. – S. Rich ( talk) 23:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I am going to post an RfD on this today or tomorrow. I think it's clear that expressing "skepticism" of evolution or saying that one can "literallly" disprove it is denialism (that is, a rejection of a established empirical reality) and distinct from the rejection (or affirmation) of non-empirical metaphysical claims entailed by membership in a religious organization. Steeletrap ( talk) 17:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
::Srich, even if editor Steeletrap had meant AfD, I think that we do need to keep that possibility in the back of our minds here. This article, like de Soto and several other of the walled-garden variety Miseans' deserves a try at improvement. If after the best efforts of various editors the articles do not reveal any independent RS citations and do not otherwise document notability, the question of AfD will be inescapable. If all the efforts at improvement fail, an AfD can more clearly be evaluated than at present. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
User:DickClarkMises worked from 2004 to 2007 at the Institute where Murphy is adjunct scholar (he stated this a few months ago on this talk page after another user asked him about a Mises Institute video in which his wiki editing of Mises articles on Wikipedia and on the Institute's wiki were celebrated 1). He created this page ( 2) and has contributed more edits to it than any other user ( 3). Shouldn't we take note of this extreme WP:COI origin in evaluating the page's current contents, and its justification for existence? Steeletrap ( talk) 04:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Please see The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism for more info. Steeletrap ( talk) 05:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
First of all the quote from the interview is too long, but the more important thing is the original intro gave the impression that somehow he was defending slavery in the free market. We certainly do not want to do that under WP:BLP - NPOV, now do we? And leaving out the first paragraph about how slavery would fail in a free market also can help create that false impression. And we certainly do not want to do that do we? Also those Ellipsis give the impression you've left something out that might be critical. In fact those are new paragraphs.
User:Carolmooredc
talk
16:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Material referenced by this citation: Carney, John (October 25, 2010). "Will Paul Krugman be Shamed Into Debating an Austrian Economics Wunderkind?". CNBC NetNet. Retrieved 19 April 2013., has been removed as a "blog". This is not the case. The author is a CNBC editor and the reference is a WP:NEWSBLOG, which is distinct from personal or group blogs. It qualifies as RS. – S. Rich ( talk) 02:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Here (
2),
User:Srich32977 deletes the citation of Murphy's blog because, despite the fact that no claim about anyone other than Murphy is made in the WP article, the link to the blog mentions the name of
Brad DeLong a real (non-fictional) human being who is not Murphy (NAME REDACTED).
WP:BLOGS says that we can "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people". But we aren't doing that here. we're just citing Murphy's blog for a statement about Murphy; readers have to do their own off-wiki OR (e.g. by going to the blog themselves) in order to ascertain claims about third parties.
Another thing: even if we were to make claims about third parties, we don't have to use Murphy's blog to establish these claims, because all the other parties mentioned have blogged about their roles in the matter themselves (and, per WP:BLOGS, can be cited as experts commenting on Murphy's methodology). However, these other blogs have been "cleaned" by users citing "BLP." (the accusation of "BLP violation" was -- big surprise -- a bare, conclusory allegation with no specific policy based argument.) Still, there is no good reason that this material -- sourced as it is by eminent economists Krugman and DeLong, and respected economist Henderson -- shouldn't be restored, as it constitutes expert evaluation of Murphy's economic methodologies. Steeletrap ( talk) 18:39, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Given that Krugman doesn't even say Murphy's name and we have to go to an already rejected self-published blog to get the details, including his name, why is this even in here? Plus various editors' problems in the various sections on this topic with keeping in the second paragraph above. Those are sufficiently expressed concerns to keep it out. I guess we'll have to take the whole section to WP:BLPN with links to all the separate discussions if people insist on putting it back. Should have gone long ago.
Carolmooredc (
Talkie-Talkie)
23:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Robert_P._Murphy_re:_Paul_Krugman_quote. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 15:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Thoughts? Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 15:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Despite all the discussion on this talk page and WP:BLPN showing the poor sourcing of this information, Steeletrap has reverted it back again
here. And when was DeLong's blog found to be RS?? And of course ignoring the real WP:RS above. Considering DeLong has come up so many times before, it's really time to go to WP:RSN with it.
Carolmooredc (
Talkie-Talkie)
18:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Brad_DeLong_blog_RS.3F. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 19:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
WP:RSN discussion certainly found problems with use of DeLong. I tried to fix by adding two good Krugman sources above.
FYI, the following is an inadequate "reply" since it is not substantive: Murphy replied on his blog to Krugman and DeLong's criticisms, which he characterized as "being accused of ideological dogmatism",...
I'll admit in this case it does take a bit of economic knowledge to ferret it out. (Or to be aware of the elephant in the room he may have missed.) Just a note for now til Arbitration is further along and I can concentrate on the less pressing issues. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 18:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
BM did not work for Arthur Laffer. He apparently had a brief stint at a consulting firm affiliated with and bearing the name of Dr. Laffer. Unless we can find some RS evidence that BM was involved in noteworthy activities at this not-wiki-notable company, I think the mention of Dr. Laffer should be removed. Remember these bio blurbs that foundations, publishers and websites use to promote their members and contributors are not independent and are often written by the subjects. Anybody disagree? SPECIFICO talk 15:47, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
At this diff editor removes specific language describing what Murphy discussed at congress and the reference for each item, replacing them with more vague language and throwing all the refs at the end. This is supposed to be an informational encyclopedia. Why make it so vague and remove refs from each issue ref'd? Also I'm pretty sure I've seen mentions of at least two of these elsewhere in acceptable RS, so feel free to add an "additional sources" tag as a reminder. Or even find and them :-) Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 19:48, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Please be sure that any text conforms to what is stated in the source. Please see my edit comment reverting misrepresentation of source RE: Murphy's discussion of Coolidge-era policies. SPECIFICO talk 16:40, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
First, SPECIFICO's current short version of what the book is about is insufficient since it mentions only one issue and does not mention points the reviewer thought equally important. Below quotes indicate order of material summarized. (Brief to avoid WP:CV.) Below that is what I think is a more accurate summary.
The summary can be tweaked, but it should reflect the reviewer's full description of the book says and not just emphasize Murphy's monetary views which differ from those of critic Paul Krugman. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 16:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know why SPECIFICO is talking about the version before my revised proposal above labeled Summary. However, from your comments I'm willing to try another version I'll put in a box so there's no confusion. And if we still can't seem to communicate our differences, we can do a two column box comparing the two versions and do an RfC to see which version noninvolved editors think best reflect the review and its usefulness for Wikipedia. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 22:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
References
Per this diff, removal of a book review from Human Events, what evidence do you have it is not for economics or book reviews? If evidence is not presented - or you choose not to take this to WP:RSN - I'll revert it. Please explain. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 19:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Right now three think it should be kept in; two want it out. Do we have a stalemate that needs to go to WP:RSN? Or should we just end the discussion and put it in? Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 03:31, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
This edit inserts, among other misrepresentations, a reference to "inflation of the money supply" which is not stated by Krugman. I'm not going to touch this for now, but I urge any editor who's watching this page to examine this edit consider whether to revert it or to rewrite it to conform to the source material. SPECIFICO talk 16:28, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
At this diff removal of material below with relevant edit summary being rmv BLP violation. (Krugman does not criticize Murphy. He criticizes ABCT,...
What does he actually say? ...Someone, I don’t know who at this point, sent me to this post by Robert Murphy, which is the best exposition I’ve seen yet of the Austrian view that’s sweeping the GOP — and I mean that sincerely, never mind the puerile insults aimed at yours truly....Murphy does offer a little story ...So what is the essence of this Austrian story? Basically, it says that what we call an economic boom is actually something like China’s disastrous Great Leap Forward, which led to a temporary surge in consumption but only at the expense of degradation of the country’s underlying productive capacity. And the unemployment that follows is a result of that degradation: there’s simply nothing useful for the unemployed workers to do. I like this story, and there are probably other cases besides China 1958-1961 to which it applies. But what reason do we have to think that it has anything to do with the business cycles we actually see in market economies? And then he criticizes the view in general.
Some might take this as criticism. If you feel it is commentary then change the word. Don't just remove what he says. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 04:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
In that section, it would be interesting to read more on how Murphy defended his views in the American Spectator Conservative. —
goethean
17:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
The fact Krugman leads in his second paragraph by saying that Murphy's article "is the best exposition I’ve seen yet of the Austrian view that’s sweeping the GOP" is itself of great interest. That he then does a second and a third paragraph related to a story that Murphy tells about his views also makes it of great interest. That he then launches into his own views is standard and even predictable, but does not obviate the importance of what he says about Murphy earlier. And the text just summarizes those facts briefly. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 18:34, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I know User:Steeletrap knows what edit warring is and I don't have to leave a user talk page warning. Another editor already left that message in an edit summary. This revert is unacceptable: [5] and already countered above is it's edit summary mv Paul Krugman's criticism of ABCT which has nothing to do with Murphy. (Murphy mentioned in cursory fashion as providing well-written summary of ABCT, but not subject of article))
Also this edit with edit summary restoring complementary primary sources (this complements RS discussion of Murphy's erroneous predictions)) was edit warring after two editors removed it as UNDUE detail from primary source. Steeltrap never opened a discussion on this. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 18:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC) Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 17:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
References
Listing my reverts momentarily with edit summaries. Please review WP:BLP/NPOV/Primary sources.
First, at this revert
3 I wrote (again, relying on primary sources to tell own POV story after removing section where Secondary source tells the story;s please review BLP/NPOV/Primary Source policie)
OK, I mistook it for a rewrite of the removed section on Capitol Theory above. Then reviewing it I saw it was a whole new topic with the CNBC RS. However, this is part of the whole Krugman vs. Murphy issue which should include all three stories:
Splitting up two stories (inflation and debate invite) and removing one (capitol theory) is just incredibly POV. I'll rewrite it. And hopefully I'll get a chance to add other WP:RS info was working on today. Whether it needs to be part of a Murphy vs. Krugman section is another issue for another day.
Carolmooredc (
Talkie-Talkie)
18:10, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Re: This diff
I am puzzled by the claim, sourced to bios and other sources presumably written by Murphy, that he sells economic forecasts in his role as consultant. Presumably a "forecast" is expressed as a quantitative estimate, yet as a Misesian Austrian economist, Murphy eschews quantitative and empirical methods. Do we have any secondary reference which describes Murphy as a forecaster? SPECIFICO talk 03:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I have no objection to keeping this, and disagree with SPECIFICO's attempts to remove. It doesn't appear to be too notable but can fall under WP:Aboutself. Steeletrap ( talk) 04:31, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I am an academic economist from Alabama. I have had dealings with the Mises Institute before and am familiar with their work and "heterodox" economics methodology.
It seems to me that there is a sustained effort on the Wiki to remove information about Mises Institute scholars that tends to show that they are outside the mainstream. I have re-added the removed information to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.175.57.24 ( talk) 20:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
This section has multiple issues. Currently, it constitutes like 40-50% of the article, but arises from only a few incidents. It also reads more as an essay on why he was wrong than an encyclopedic article on the interactions. I'm going to slim it down. Squatch347 ( talk) 12:05, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
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I removed the vanity warning since I, not Bob Murphy, created this Wikipedia article about Murphy, an arguably notable economist and Libertarian theorist. DickClarkMises 06:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll vouch for Bob being an important commentator in radical libertarian spheres. I was also wondering if we should add a note about his religious beliefs, as they often play a major role in his writings for LewRockwell.com. Atripodi 09:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone disagree with me at this point that we should consider AfD for this article. It barely passes any semblance of muster. Has this been discussed previously? I note that Mises affiliate DickClarkMises called Murphy "arguably notable" seven years ago and I don't see anything in the article that clearly establishes his notability. Thoughts? SPECIFICO talk 00:49, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
could someone add secondary sources? currently references are mostly reviews of his books. 216.80.119.92 ( talk) 19:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Should a section be included regarding his debate challenge to Paul Krugman? I'm happy to write the section, but being a new to Wikipedia, I'm opening this for discussion before adding. Jtropeano ( talk) 18:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Hey. I know the OR isn't welcomed, but don't you think an illustration of how badly Murphy lost the bet (the change CPI would've had to have been more than 150% greater than it was in the highest year of change for him to have one) is relevant? (Murphy himself concedes this, btw). Steeletrap ( talk) 17:28, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Srich, I think that bit about stockpiling metals should remain in the article. Reason: Murphy was employed as an investment analyst at Laffer & Co. so this advice continues a thread in his work. Please consider re-inserting. SPECIFICO talk 23:47, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
On a related note, I just made a change to the criticism part contextualizing the main point of Murphy's 2009 article in The American Conservative: namely, that it is "entirely plausible" that the US Dollar may be abandoned entirely by the end of Obama's Presidency. (He specifically and non-facetiously mentions the (conspiracy-theorized) "amero" currency as a possible candidate to replace it) Maybe the stuff about stockpiling physical metals (to bury in one's yard..? :P ) could fit here. Steeletrap ( talk) 05:48, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Most (all?) of this section's claims appear to be partly or entirely normative, e.g. Murphy's views that law should be privatized and that Leftist are "cynical, bitter people." "Economics" is a social science, and as such is positive rather than normative. Thus I changed "economic beliefs" to "Moral and Political Beliefs." Someone interested in improving this article should note some value-free contributions Murphy has made to economic theory (as opposed to paraphrasing his normative defense of anarcho-capitalism). Steeletrap ( talk) 23:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
False sounds like a misrepresntation of fact. Erroneous? What is your concern about Srich's "wager..."? I am comfortable with the sourcing of the text and agree that it should not be removed again without prior consensus to do so. SPECIFICO talk 22:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Steeletrap ( talk) 23:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
@Srich - I checked your statement that Steele's edit changed a version which had remained stable for six months. That is not true. In fact the stable version was "incorrect inflation prediction" and the Bold edit was DGG's on Oct. 1, 2013. Steele then did her revert, and you should have gone to talk for discussion rather than re-inserting DGG's version. You may not like me to remind you of this, but it's really important to be accurate in your statements here -- particularly if they are bundled with little "reminders" about Sanctions. If other editors feel that they need to check your statements of straightforward facts such as edit histories it wastes a lot of editor time and attention and dilutes the collaboration we are trying to sustain here. Please reflect. SPECIFICO talk 01:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
User:A_Quest_For_Knowledge says that the inclusion of the J. Bradford DeLong and David Henderson expert (economist) blogs is improper because they used to source facts about Murphy. I ask: which facts? The fact that Murphy made an incorrect prediction is drawn from Murphy himself (and the NYT). The (expert) blogs are just evaluating his (already established) methodologies/predictions, rather than making factual assertions about him. I understand this exchange got a bit heated on the ANI, so I will AGF and ask AQFK to do the same while expressing their views. Steeletrap ( talk) 04:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I see Brad DeLong and Paul Krugman being added again. The particular Murphy material is SPS, and it names, in its' title, third persons. Leaving out/redacting names is impossible. The SPS policy is about the source, not about how it might be incorporated into the text. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:40, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
These edits are abundantly well-sourced and accepted without objection by most editors on this page. Deleting it wholesale is unacceptable without significant discussion and attempt to reach consensus. Discussions about the neutrality of the edits are welcome, though they strike me as straight-forward paraphrases of claims made in the sources. Steeletrap ( talk) 23:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
I've tagged the section as undue. Murphy's a finance/econ guy (of whatever sort) and putting in a whole section devoted to his "denialist beliefs" isn't encyclopedic. So what if he's written about his beliefs? LewRockwell.com has given him a platform, but we don't need to crucify him or praise him either way for using it. In any event, labeling his beliefs as "denialism", with links, is wrong. – S. Rich ( talk) 19:53, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Rich, this is a pretty simple matter. Murphy rejects or is "skeptical" of the notion that human beings evolved from lower organisms. Is this denialism? Numerous RS, including Wikipedia's page on denialism, say so. Thus we indicate that Murphy is a denialist. Steeletrap ( talk) 07:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Again, where is the RS that describes Murphy as a denialist? There is a difference between having religious beliefs and denialism. Consider, you have a userbox that refers to Ashkenazi Jews heritage, but you are an atheist. Does that make you a "religious denialist" or "Judaism denialist" or "Torah denialist". Like-wise, are people who adhere to their faith "evolution denialists" or "astronomy denialists" (who stopped the Sun in the sky?) or "medical science denialists" (lots of miracles and medical impossibilities are described in the Bible), etc.? You, Steele, made the tie-in to Holocaust and AIDs denialism. And you added a WP:EGG link that redirected to Creation–evolution controversy. But that article does not use the term "denialism" or "denialist". I urge you to review WP:PUSH#Examples. – S. Rich ( talk) 18:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
While you have not mentioned it, perhaps the example of how WP is handling global warming will help. We have articles on Global warming, Scientific opinion on climate change, Public opinion on climate change, Media coverage of climate change, the Global warming controversy, and Climate change denial. If there was RS which reported that Murphy (or any other non-scientist) was skeptical about aspects of global warming, which would be the most appropriate link to use? Consider, suppose he says "I don't think global warming is a problem at present because I'm confident that scientific progress and innovation will be successful in overcoming the adverse aspects of global warming." Or maybe he says "The measures proposed to counteract global warming will be too small and too late to have a beneficial impact, but will harm the economy and lives of millions of people." Or he might say "I'm not convinced that global warming is taking place because I see stuff in the scientific literature that shows the earth has had many such cycles of warming and cooling." Regardless of which hypothetical statement Murphy utters, how would we characterize it? Do we make him out to be a "global warming denialist"? (Indeed, is there an " -ism" for global warming?) We might disagree with the fact that Murphy is skeptical about evolution, but so what? His comments have had insignificant impact on the creation-evolution controversy and it would be improper for us to include his views in the C-E controversy article (and related articles). Along the same lines, we cannot be characterizing his religious beliefs as an anti-science "-ism", or describe him as an adherent (e.g., an " -ist") to any such beliefs. – S. Rich ( talk) 23:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I am going to post an RfD on this today or tomorrow. I think it's clear that expressing "skepticism" of evolution or saying that one can "literallly" disprove it is denialism (that is, a rejection of a established empirical reality) and distinct from the rejection (or affirmation) of non-empirical metaphysical claims entailed by membership in a religious organization. Steeletrap ( talk) 17:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
::Srich, even if editor Steeletrap had meant AfD, I think that we do need to keep that possibility in the back of our minds here. This article, like de Soto and several other of the walled-garden variety Miseans' deserves a try at improvement. If after the best efforts of various editors the articles do not reveal any independent RS citations and do not otherwise document notability, the question of AfD will be inescapable. If all the efforts at improvement fail, an AfD can more clearly be evaluated than at present. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
User:DickClarkMises worked from 2004 to 2007 at the Institute where Murphy is adjunct scholar (he stated this a few months ago on this talk page after another user asked him about a Mises Institute video in which his wiki editing of Mises articles on Wikipedia and on the Institute's wiki were celebrated 1). He created this page ( 2) and has contributed more edits to it than any other user ( 3). Shouldn't we take note of this extreme WP:COI origin in evaluating the page's current contents, and its justification for existence? Steeletrap ( talk) 04:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Please see The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism for more info. Steeletrap ( talk) 05:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
First of all the quote from the interview is too long, but the more important thing is the original intro gave the impression that somehow he was defending slavery in the free market. We certainly do not want to do that under WP:BLP - NPOV, now do we? And leaving out the first paragraph about how slavery would fail in a free market also can help create that false impression. And we certainly do not want to do that do we? Also those Ellipsis give the impression you've left something out that might be critical. In fact those are new paragraphs.
User:Carolmooredc
talk
16:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Material referenced by this citation: Carney, John (October 25, 2010). "Will Paul Krugman be Shamed Into Debating an Austrian Economics Wunderkind?". CNBC NetNet. Retrieved 19 April 2013., has been removed as a "blog". This is not the case. The author is a CNBC editor and the reference is a WP:NEWSBLOG, which is distinct from personal or group blogs. It qualifies as RS. – S. Rich ( talk) 02:07, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Here (
2),
User:Srich32977 deletes the citation of Murphy's blog because, despite the fact that no claim about anyone other than Murphy is made in the WP article, the link to the blog mentions the name of
Brad DeLong a real (non-fictional) human being who is not Murphy (NAME REDACTED).
WP:BLOGS says that we can "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people". But we aren't doing that here. we're just citing Murphy's blog for a statement about Murphy; readers have to do their own off-wiki OR (e.g. by going to the blog themselves) in order to ascertain claims about third parties.
Another thing: even if we were to make claims about third parties, we don't have to use Murphy's blog to establish these claims, because all the other parties mentioned have blogged about their roles in the matter themselves (and, per WP:BLOGS, can be cited as experts commenting on Murphy's methodology). However, these other blogs have been "cleaned" by users citing "BLP." (the accusation of "BLP violation" was -- big surprise -- a bare, conclusory allegation with no specific policy based argument.) Still, there is no good reason that this material -- sourced as it is by eminent economists Krugman and DeLong, and respected economist Henderson -- shouldn't be restored, as it constitutes expert evaluation of Murphy's economic methodologies. Steeletrap ( talk) 18:39, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Given that Krugman doesn't even say Murphy's name and we have to go to an already rejected self-published blog to get the details, including his name, why is this even in here? Plus various editors' problems in the various sections on this topic with keeping in the second paragraph above. Those are sufficiently expressed concerns to keep it out. I guess we'll have to take the whole section to WP:BLPN with links to all the separate discussions if people insist on putting it back. Should have gone long ago.
Carolmooredc (
Talkie-Talkie)
23:06, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Robert_P._Murphy_re:_Paul_Krugman_quote. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 15:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Thoughts? Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 15:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Despite all the discussion on this talk page and WP:BLPN showing the poor sourcing of this information, Steeletrap has reverted it back again
here. And when was DeLong's blog found to be RS?? And of course ignoring the real WP:RS above. Considering DeLong has come up so many times before, it's really time to go to WP:RSN with it.
Carolmooredc (
Talkie-Talkie)
18:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Brad_DeLong_blog_RS.3F. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 19:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
WP:RSN discussion certainly found problems with use of DeLong. I tried to fix by adding two good Krugman sources above.
FYI, the following is an inadequate "reply" since it is not substantive: Murphy replied on his blog to Krugman and DeLong's criticisms, which he characterized as "being accused of ideological dogmatism",...
I'll admit in this case it does take a bit of economic knowledge to ferret it out. (Or to be aware of the elephant in the room he may have missed.) Just a note for now til Arbitration is further along and I can concentrate on the less pressing issues. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 18:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
BM did not work for Arthur Laffer. He apparently had a brief stint at a consulting firm affiliated with and bearing the name of Dr. Laffer. Unless we can find some RS evidence that BM was involved in noteworthy activities at this not-wiki-notable company, I think the mention of Dr. Laffer should be removed. Remember these bio blurbs that foundations, publishers and websites use to promote their members and contributors are not independent and are often written by the subjects. Anybody disagree? SPECIFICO talk 15:47, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
At this diff editor removes specific language describing what Murphy discussed at congress and the reference for each item, replacing them with more vague language and throwing all the refs at the end. This is supposed to be an informational encyclopedia. Why make it so vague and remove refs from each issue ref'd? Also I'm pretty sure I've seen mentions of at least two of these elsewhere in acceptable RS, so feel free to add an "additional sources" tag as a reminder. Or even find and them :-) Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 19:48, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Please be sure that any text conforms to what is stated in the source. Please see my edit comment reverting misrepresentation of source RE: Murphy's discussion of Coolidge-era policies. SPECIFICO talk 16:40, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
First, SPECIFICO's current short version of what the book is about is insufficient since it mentions only one issue and does not mention points the reviewer thought equally important. Below quotes indicate order of material summarized. (Brief to avoid WP:CV.) Below that is what I think is a more accurate summary.
The summary can be tweaked, but it should reflect the reviewer's full description of the book says and not just emphasize Murphy's monetary views which differ from those of critic Paul Krugman. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 16:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know why SPECIFICO is talking about the version before my revised proposal above labeled Summary. However, from your comments I'm willing to try another version I'll put in a box so there's no confusion. And if we still can't seem to communicate our differences, we can do a two column box comparing the two versions and do an RfC to see which version noninvolved editors think best reflect the review and its usefulness for Wikipedia. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 22:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
References
Per this diff, removal of a book review from Human Events, what evidence do you have it is not for economics or book reviews? If evidence is not presented - or you choose not to take this to WP:RSN - I'll revert it. Please explain. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 19:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Right now three think it should be kept in; two want it out. Do we have a stalemate that needs to go to WP:RSN? Or should we just end the discussion and put it in? Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 03:31, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
This edit inserts, among other misrepresentations, a reference to "inflation of the money supply" which is not stated by Krugman. I'm not going to touch this for now, but I urge any editor who's watching this page to examine this edit consider whether to revert it or to rewrite it to conform to the source material. SPECIFICO talk 16:28, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
At this diff removal of material below with relevant edit summary being rmv BLP violation. (Krugman does not criticize Murphy. He criticizes ABCT,...
What does he actually say? ...Someone, I don’t know who at this point, sent me to this post by Robert Murphy, which is the best exposition I’ve seen yet of the Austrian view that’s sweeping the GOP — and I mean that sincerely, never mind the puerile insults aimed at yours truly....Murphy does offer a little story ...So what is the essence of this Austrian story? Basically, it says that what we call an economic boom is actually something like China’s disastrous Great Leap Forward, which led to a temporary surge in consumption but only at the expense of degradation of the country’s underlying productive capacity. And the unemployment that follows is a result of that degradation: there’s simply nothing useful for the unemployed workers to do. I like this story, and there are probably other cases besides China 1958-1961 to which it applies. But what reason do we have to think that it has anything to do with the business cycles we actually see in market economies? And then he criticizes the view in general.
Some might take this as criticism. If you feel it is commentary then change the word. Don't just remove what he says. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 04:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
In that section, it would be interesting to read more on how Murphy defended his views in the American Spectator Conservative. —
goethean
17:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
The fact Krugman leads in his second paragraph by saying that Murphy's article "is the best exposition I’ve seen yet of the Austrian view that’s sweeping the GOP" is itself of great interest. That he then does a second and a third paragraph related to a story that Murphy tells about his views also makes it of great interest. That he then launches into his own views is standard and even predictable, but does not obviate the importance of what he says about Murphy earlier. And the text just summarizes those facts briefly. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 18:34, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I know User:Steeletrap knows what edit warring is and I don't have to leave a user talk page warning. Another editor already left that message in an edit summary. This revert is unacceptable: [5] and already countered above is it's edit summary mv Paul Krugman's criticism of ABCT which has nothing to do with Murphy. (Murphy mentioned in cursory fashion as providing well-written summary of ABCT, but not subject of article))
Also this edit with edit summary restoring complementary primary sources (this complements RS discussion of Murphy's erroneous predictions)) was edit warring after two editors removed it as UNDUE detail from primary source. Steeltrap never opened a discussion on this. Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 18:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC) Carolmooredc ( Talkie-Talkie) 17:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
References
Listing my reverts momentarily with edit summaries. Please review WP:BLP/NPOV/Primary sources.
First, at this revert
3 I wrote (again, relying on primary sources to tell own POV story after removing section where Secondary source tells the story;s please review BLP/NPOV/Primary Source policie)
OK, I mistook it for a rewrite of the removed section on Capitol Theory above. Then reviewing it I saw it was a whole new topic with the CNBC RS. However, this is part of the whole Krugman vs. Murphy issue which should include all three stories:
Splitting up two stories (inflation and debate invite) and removing one (capitol theory) is just incredibly POV. I'll rewrite it. And hopefully I'll get a chance to add other WP:RS info was working on today. Whether it needs to be part of a Murphy vs. Krugman section is another issue for another day.
Carolmooredc (
Talkie-Talkie)
18:10, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Re: This diff
I am puzzled by the claim, sourced to bios and other sources presumably written by Murphy, that he sells economic forecasts in his role as consultant. Presumably a "forecast" is expressed as a quantitative estimate, yet as a Misesian Austrian economist, Murphy eschews quantitative and empirical methods. Do we have any secondary reference which describes Murphy as a forecaster? SPECIFICO talk 03:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I have no objection to keeping this, and disagree with SPECIFICO's attempts to remove. It doesn't appear to be too notable but can fall under WP:Aboutself. Steeletrap ( talk) 04:31, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I am an academic economist from Alabama. I have had dealings with the Mises Institute before and am familiar with their work and "heterodox" economics methodology.
It seems to me that there is a sustained effort on the Wiki to remove information about Mises Institute scholars that tends to show that they are outside the mainstream. I have re-added the removed information to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.175.57.24 ( talk) 20:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
This section has multiple issues. Currently, it constitutes like 40-50% of the article, but arises from only a few incidents. It also reads more as an essay on why he was wrong than an encyclopedic article on the interactions. I'm going to slim it down. Squatch347 ( talk) 12:05, 29 September 2021 (UTC)