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The result of the move request was page moved. — harej ( talk) ( cool!) 05:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Triborough Bridge →
Robert F. Kennedy Bridge — This is the actual name per official site
[1] and is used in all media news/traffic reports (sometimes combined as RFK-Triborough, as noted in article). Also propose redirects from
Triborough Bridge,
Triboro Bridge,
RFK Bridge, and
Robert Francis Kennedy Bridge. See
Jackie Robinson Parkway (formerly Interboro Parkway) for a similar situation: a newer official name and an older, still-often used name. -
Sme3 (
talk)
13:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: article moved Armbrust, B.Ed. WrestleMania XXVIII The Undertaker 20–0 08:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Robert F. Kennedy Bridge → Triborough Bridge – This article was retitled "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" following its official name change in 2008. I originally objected to such a change, but could provide no evidence that "Triborough Bridge" was used by the majority of the populace.
However, a Wall Street Journal article has found that a majority of people, both in 2010 and 2011, (55% & 54%, respectively) still reference the bridge as "Triborough Bridge" rather than "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" or "RFK Bridge".
As of this writing, the article for the page currently opens with the following:
The Robert F. Kennedy (RFK) Bridge (1936), colloquially and originally known as the Triborough Bridge (sometimes spelled Triboro Bridge), is a complex of three separate bridges in New York City, United States.
I feel it would be more prudent to return the article title to the common-use name of "Triborough Bridge" and then state that is now officially rechristened as the "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge", as in the following example:
The Triborough Bridge (1936), officially named the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge, is a complex of three separate bridges in New York City, United States.
I feel that the Wall Street Journal article (link below), which provides evidence that "Triborough Bridge" rather than "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" is the most common moniker for the bridge provides proper motive to revert the title to the common-use name under Wikipedia Policy:
Official English names are candidates for what to call the article, because somebody presumably uses them. They should always be considered as possibilities, but should be used only if they are actually the name most commonly used.
Since The Wall Street Journal, (a reputable, national publication) contends that "Triborough Bridge" is the most commonly used moniker, and provides evidence that such a claim is true, the article should be returned to its former, common-use title. An explanation of the official renaming of the bridge will immediately follow after the common-use title.
In summation, the retitling of the article from "Triborough Bridge" to "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" was unsubstantiated from the beginning, and the common-use name should be restored at once; common-use names must take precedence over official names if the official name is not the one most commonly used.
"blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/12/new-yorkers-ignore-new-bridge-names/" Efb91 ( talk) 23:40, 17 June 2012 (UTC)== ==
Weak support per WP:COMMONNAME, but are there policies that support not changing the title? Doniago ( talk) 12:35, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Done Moved. -
Denimadept (
talk)
07:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The bridge has been renamed since 2008 and the name "Triborough Bridge" has fallen significantly out of usage since the debates below. The Wikipedia article on the recently renamed "Ed Koch Queensboro Bridge" has been renamed, and so should this article. I will rename this article unless anyone can point to any valid reason why we should keep Wikipedia out of date. The Interloafer ( talk) 17:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay, so currently the lead reads:
The Triborough Bridge, renamed the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge in 2008, and sometimes referred to as the RFK Triborough Bridge...
Yesterday, an anon editor (not me) edited it to read:
The Triborough Bridge, known officially as the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge since 2008, and sometimes referred to as the RFK Triborough Bridge...
This was reverted, then I undid the revert, stating in my edit summary "Yes, but it still is commonly called the Triborough (hence the article title). This phrasing makes it clear that the official name is the RFK (and since when), but also makes it clear that that is just an official name, not the common one." I was then reverted with an edit summary stating this has been discussed at length on the talk page, but all I see is discussion about the article title, not the phrasing of the lead.
As I said in my edit summary, which I stand by, I believe the anon's phrasing to be superior, as it more clearly explains the situation without raising the obvious question as to why, if the bridge was renamed, the article title doesn't match that name. It also is similar to the phrasing of the leads at Brooklyn–Battery Tunnel, Queensboro Bridge, and West Side Highway, other New York City infrastructure that have official names dedicated to people that are not used in common use. So it seems to me that it would be a better, more complete, phrasing that also reads better. oknazevad ( talk) 01:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Nothing's been settled. Changes like that take a lot more time than five measly years to determine their success. Sometimes it can take a generation or two, so the old folks who know it by the original name are replaced by new people who only know the new name. The city just more-or-less gave up the fight on 6th Avenue recently, and that change was made almost seventy years ago. Chill out, and let's wait to see the results. There's nothing wrong with what's there, it's neither inaccurate nor does it make any implications. BMK ( talk) 03:12, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
In May 2010, a few days after a failed truck bomb attempt in Time Square, a suspicious U-Haul truck was spotted on the Triborough Bridge. The truck was examined, no issue was identified and traffic on the bridge was reopened; It was a false alarm justified by the circumstances that week, but no more than that. I agree that, at the time of the event, the incident appeared notable. With the passage of five years since the truck was puled over, the false alarm appears to have no enduring encyclopedic value. I had removed it in this edit, with an edit summary noting that the event "no longer appears encyclopedic in nature". Oknazevad removed the content after it was reinserted in this edit, noting that "it lacks any long term significance, and therefore is just trivial. After five years I think we can judge a false alarm". In both cases, Beyond My Ken blindly reverted, with edit summaries noting that "sourced incident" and "SO, I can assume you don't live in NYC, and never lived through 9/11".
Both Oknazevad and I acknowledge that there are sources, but neither of us see any enduring significance. BMK raises the 9/11 trump card, but that appears to offer no justification to maintain this particular material.
In the absence of any evidence that a mention of this false alarm deserves mention in this article and in the absence of any consensus for its retention, it will be removed. Alansohn ( talk) 14:08, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition of "causeway" as one of the four bridge types. We don't call a normal freeway structure a "causeway," we just call it a "freeway." A "causeway," on the other hand, is an elevated road on an embankment across a body of water. Examples are:
– epic genius ( talk) 17:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
More of the same here, here, here, here, etc. BMK ( talk) 23:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)causeway
Raised road, track, or path through a marshland or low-lying area that is often waterlogged. [5]
The Power Broker is cited in the lead as the source for a four-bridge complex. Page 386 says that the "Triborough was really not a bridge at all, but four bridges, which together with 13,500 feet of broad viaducts, would link three boroughs and two islands." I'm sure that most natives, even those who have traveled over the bridge thousands of times, don't think that there are four bridges, but may well realize that there are three (perhaps once the Bronx Kills crossing is pointed as a bridge). When it was constructed, one could argue that there was a fourth bridge connecting the now-unified Randalls and Wards Islands, which had been separated by the Little Hell Gate until it was filled in during the 1960s. So are there three bridges or four? Caro says four and the MTA says three (see this link)?
Is the structure over Randalls and Wards Islands a viaduct (per the MTA and Caro p. 386), is it a causeway (Caro p. 387 "The last of the four bridges -- a causeway connecting Randall's and Ward's islands -- would have stood alone as an engineering feat of no mean magnitude, but so huge was Triborough that the causeway was a mere incident in its construction...") or is it something else? Alansohn ( talk) 17:31, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I-278 is a grade-separated highway (as opposed to traffic lights), so it is relevant to note that. I apologize if this outburst in the edit summary offended anyone, but I think that adding the grade separation is relevant. "Highway" itself does not indicate "grade-separated" (the OED gives "the public road network, regarded as being under royal protection; (esp. in early use) a specific road regarded as belonging to that network."), so I would like opinions on this.
Also, there is an exit to the island just past the tolls on I-278 westbound and on NY 900G westbound. epic genius ( talk) 18:44, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I object to the use of this phrase. It is unclear how this is calculated. epic genius ( talk) 17:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Per WP:NDASH, the endash connects two entities, just like the bridge does. Chicago Manual of Style agrees. Why is this endash being removed? epic genius ( talk) 14:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Eh? This road is miles away. Is there a source for a plan to run it to the bridge? Jim.henderson ( talk) 15:30, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
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Regarding this edit, it's not redundant to add "RFK Bridge" as an alternate name. I see "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" and "RFK Triborough Bridge" mentioned, but not "RFK Bridge". "RFK Triborough" is not the same as "RFK", which is increasingly being used as a standalone abbreviation without the "Triborough". Although RFK is a common abbreviation for Robert F. Kennedy, this article doesn't say that. epicgenius ( talk) 15:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi everyone, this issue generated a healthy discussion a decade ago, but now that so much time has elapsed and name usage has evolved, I am proposing to rename this article "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge", add appropriate redirects, and make related text edits to the intro section. There were good arguments on both sides of the issue as we saw, but I am making this proposal because compared to when this question was last raised, the RFK name has, in my opinion, undoubtedly become the predominantly used name of the bridge. Here are a few metrics: RFK is used in 1) the very large majority of media reports (Googling for both names just now, I got 58,600 hits for Robert F. Kennedy Bridge, 14,400 hits for RFK Bridge, and 5,120 hits for Triborough Bridge and for Triboro Bridge. But many of the latter were not to references to the bridge, but to the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority); 2) Google maps, Bing maps and Mapquest; 3) the majority of highway signs (though certainly not all); 4) most radio traffic reports (I don't know how to quantify this but I experience it in my day-to-day life); 5) my E-ZPass statements. There are certainly people who still use Triboro or Triborough in day-to-day conversations, but IMO RFK is definitely the more used, certainly closer to the FDR Drive than to Joe DiMaggio Highway. I think it's time we let Wikipedia reflect this. The Interloafer ( talk) 22:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Moved as proposed. Consensus is clear. BD2412 T 01:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Triborough Bridge → Robert F. Kennedy Bridge – As noted in talk page thread started in August, the RFK name has, in my opinion, undoubtedly become the predominantly used name of the bridge. Here are a few metrics: RFK is used in 1) the very large majority of media reports (Googling for both names just now, I got 58,600 hits for Robert F. Kennedy Bridge, 14,400 hits for RFK Bridge, and 5,120 hits for Triborough Bridge and for Triboro Bridge. But many of the latter were not to references to the bridge, but to the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority); 2) Google maps, Bing maps and Mapquest; 3) the majority of highway signs (though certainly not all); 4) most radio traffic reports (I don't know how to quantify this but I experience it in my day-to-day life); 5) my E-ZPass statements. There are certainly people who still use Triboro or Triborough in day-to-day conversations, but IMO RFK is definitely the more used, certainly closer to the FDR Drive than to Joe DiMaggio Highway. I think it's time we let Wikipedia reflect this. The Interloafer ( talk) 17:15, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Robert F. Kennedy Bridge article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | Robert F. Kennedy Bridge has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on July 11, 2017, July 11, 2022, and July 11, 2024. |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
The result of the move request was page moved. — harej ( talk) ( cool!) 05:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Triborough Bridge →
Robert F. Kennedy Bridge — This is the actual name per official site
[1] and is used in all media news/traffic reports (sometimes combined as RFK-Triborough, as noted in article). Also propose redirects from
Triborough Bridge,
Triboro Bridge,
RFK Bridge, and
Robert Francis Kennedy Bridge. See
Jackie Robinson Parkway (formerly Interboro Parkway) for a similar situation: a newer official name and an older, still-often used name. -
Sme3 (
talk)
13:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: article moved Armbrust, B.Ed. WrestleMania XXVIII The Undertaker 20–0 08:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Robert F. Kennedy Bridge → Triborough Bridge – This article was retitled "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" following its official name change in 2008. I originally objected to such a change, but could provide no evidence that "Triborough Bridge" was used by the majority of the populace.
However, a Wall Street Journal article has found that a majority of people, both in 2010 and 2011, (55% & 54%, respectively) still reference the bridge as "Triborough Bridge" rather than "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" or "RFK Bridge".
As of this writing, the article for the page currently opens with the following:
The Robert F. Kennedy (RFK) Bridge (1936), colloquially and originally known as the Triborough Bridge (sometimes spelled Triboro Bridge), is a complex of three separate bridges in New York City, United States.
I feel it would be more prudent to return the article title to the common-use name of "Triborough Bridge" and then state that is now officially rechristened as the "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge", as in the following example:
The Triborough Bridge (1936), officially named the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge, is a complex of three separate bridges in New York City, United States.
I feel that the Wall Street Journal article (link below), which provides evidence that "Triborough Bridge" rather than "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" is the most common moniker for the bridge provides proper motive to revert the title to the common-use name under Wikipedia Policy:
Official English names are candidates for what to call the article, because somebody presumably uses them. They should always be considered as possibilities, but should be used only if they are actually the name most commonly used.
Since The Wall Street Journal, (a reputable, national publication) contends that "Triborough Bridge" is the most commonly used moniker, and provides evidence that such a claim is true, the article should be returned to its former, common-use title. An explanation of the official renaming of the bridge will immediately follow after the common-use title.
In summation, the retitling of the article from "Triborough Bridge" to "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" was unsubstantiated from the beginning, and the common-use name should be restored at once; common-use names must take precedence over official names if the official name is not the one most commonly used.
"blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/12/new-yorkers-ignore-new-bridge-names/" Efb91 ( talk) 23:40, 17 June 2012 (UTC)== ==
Weak support per WP:COMMONNAME, but are there policies that support not changing the title? Doniago ( talk) 12:35, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Done Moved. -
Denimadept (
talk)
07:28, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
The bridge has been renamed since 2008 and the name "Triborough Bridge" has fallen significantly out of usage since the debates below. The Wikipedia article on the recently renamed "Ed Koch Queensboro Bridge" has been renamed, and so should this article. I will rename this article unless anyone can point to any valid reason why we should keep Wikipedia out of date. The Interloafer ( talk) 17:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay, so currently the lead reads:
The Triborough Bridge, renamed the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge in 2008, and sometimes referred to as the RFK Triborough Bridge...
Yesterday, an anon editor (not me) edited it to read:
The Triborough Bridge, known officially as the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge since 2008, and sometimes referred to as the RFK Triborough Bridge...
This was reverted, then I undid the revert, stating in my edit summary "Yes, but it still is commonly called the Triborough (hence the article title). This phrasing makes it clear that the official name is the RFK (and since when), but also makes it clear that that is just an official name, not the common one." I was then reverted with an edit summary stating this has been discussed at length on the talk page, but all I see is discussion about the article title, not the phrasing of the lead.
As I said in my edit summary, which I stand by, I believe the anon's phrasing to be superior, as it more clearly explains the situation without raising the obvious question as to why, if the bridge was renamed, the article title doesn't match that name. It also is similar to the phrasing of the leads at Brooklyn–Battery Tunnel, Queensboro Bridge, and West Side Highway, other New York City infrastructure that have official names dedicated to people that are not used in common use. So it seems to me that it would be a better, more complete, phrasing that also reads better. oknazevad ( talk) 01:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Nothing's been settled. Changes like that take a lot more time than five measly years to determine their success. Sometimes it can take a generation or two, so the old folks who know it by the original name are replaced by new people who only know the new name. The city just more-or-less gave up the fight on 6th Avenue recently, and that change was made almost seventy years ago. Chill out, and let's wait to see the results. There's nothing wrong with what's there, it's neither inaccurate nor does it make any implications. BMK ( talk) 03:12, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
In May 2010, a few days after a failed truck bomb attempt in Time Square, a suspicious U-Haul truck was spotted on the Triborough Bridge. The truck was examined, no issue was identified and traffic on the bridge was reopened; It was a false alarm justified by the circumstances that week, but no more than that. I agree that, at the time of the event, the incident appeared notable. With the passage of five years since the truck was puled over, the false alarm appears to have no enduring encyclopedic value. I had removed it in this edit, with an edit summary noting that the event "no longer appears encyclopedic in nature". Oknazevad removed the content after it was reinserted in this edit, noting that "it lacks any long term significance, and therefore is just trivial. After five years I think we can judge a false alarm". In both cases, Beyond My Ken blindly reverted, with edit summaries noting that "sourced incident" and "SO, I can assume you don't live in NYC, and never lived through 9/11".
Both Oknazevad and I acknowledge that there are sources, but neither of us see any enduring significance. BMK raises the 9/11 trump card, but that appears to offer no justification to maintain this particular material.
In the absence of any evidence that a mention of this false alarm deserves mention in this article and in the absence of any consensus for its retention, it will be removed. Alansohn ( talk) 14:08, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition of "causeway" as one of the four bridge types. We don't call a normal freeway structure a "causeway," we just call it a "freeway." A "causeway," on the other hand, is an elevated road on an embankment across a body of water. Examples are:
– epic genius ( talk) 17:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
More of the same here, here, here, here, etc. BMK ( talk) 23:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)causeway
Raised road, track, or path through a marshland or low-lying area that is often waterlogged. [5]
The Power Broker is cited in the lead as the source for a four-bridge complex. Page 386 says that the "Triborough was really not a bridge at all, but four bridges, which together with 13,500 feet of broad viaducts, would link three boroughs and two islands." I'm sure that most natives, even those who have traveled over the bridge thousands of times, don't think that there are four bridges, but may well realize that there are three (perhaps once the Bronx Kills crossing is pointed as a bridge). When it was constructed, one could argue that there was a fourth bridge connecting the now-unified Randalls and Wards Islands, which had been separated by the Little Hell Gate until it was filled in during the 1960s. So are there three bridges or four? Caro says four and the MTA says three (see this link)?
Is the structure over Randalls and Wards Islands a viaduct (per the MTA and Caro p. 386), is it a causeway (Caro p. 387 "The last of the four bridges -- a causeway connecting Randall's and Ward's islands -- would have stood alone as an engineering feat of no mean magnitude, but so huge was Triborough that the causeway was a mere incident in its construction...") or is it something else? Alansohn ( talk) 17:31, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I-278 is a grade-separated highway (as opposed to traffic lights), so it is relevant to note that. I apologize if this outburst in the edit summary offended anyone, but I think that adding the grade separation is relevant. "Highway" itself does not indicate "grade-separated" (the OED gives "the public road network, regarded as being under royal protection; (esp. in early use) a specific road regarded as belonging to that network."), so I would like opinions on this.
Also, there is an exit to the island just past the tolls on I-278 westbound and on NY 900G westbound. epic genius ( talk) 18:44, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
I object to the use of this phrase. It is unclear how this is calculated. epic genius ( talk) 17:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Per WP:NDASH, the endash connects two entities, just like the bridge does. Chicago Manual of Style agrees. Why is this endash being removed? epic genius ( talk) 14:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Eh? This road is miles away. Is there a source for a plan to run it to the bridge? Jim.henderson ( talk) 15:30, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Triborough Bridge. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Regarding this edit, it's not redundant to add "RFK Bridge" as an alternate name. I see "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge" and "RFK Triborough Bridge" mentioned, but not "RFK Bridge". "RFK Triborough" is not the same as "RFK", which is increasingly being used as a standalone abbreviation without the "Triborough". Although RFK is a common abbreviation for Robert F. Kennedy, this article doesn't say that. epicgenius ( talk) 15:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Hi everyone, this issue generated a healthy discussion a decade ago, but now that so much time has elapsed and name usage has evolved, I am proposing to rename this article "Robert F. Kennedy Bridge", add appropriate redirects, and make related text edits to the intro section. There were good arguments on both sides of the issue as we saw, but I am making this proposal because compared to when this question was last raised, the RFK name has, in my opinion, undoubtedly become the predominantly used name of the bridge. Here are a few metrics: RFK is used in 1) the very large majority of media reports (Googling for both names just now, I got 58,600 hits for Robert F. Kennedy Bridge, 14,400 hits for RFK Bridge, and 5,120 hits for Triborough Bridge and for Triboro Bridge. But many of the latter were not to references to the bridge, but to the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority); 2) Google maps, Bing maps and Mapquest; 3) the majority of highway signs (though certainly not all); 4) most radio traffic reports (I don't know how to quantify this but I experience it in my day-to-day life); 5) my E-ZPass statements. There are certainly people who still use Triboro or Triborough in day-to-day conversations, but IMO RFK is definitely the more used, certainly closer to the FDR Drive than to Joe DiMaggio Highway. I think it's time we let Wikipedia reflect this. The Interloafer ( talk) 22:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Moved as proposed. Consensus is clear. BD2412 T 01:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Triborough Bridge → Robert F. Kennedy Bridge – As noted in talk page thread started in August, the RFK name has, in my opinion, undoubtedly become the predominantly used name of the bridge. Here are a few metrics: RFK is used in 1) the very large majority of media reports (Googling for both names just now, I got 58,600 hits for Robert F. Kennedy Bridge, 14,400 hits for RFK Bridge, and 5,120 hits for Triborough Bridge and for Triboro Bridge. But many of the latter were not to references to the bridge, but to the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority); 2) Google maps, Bing maps and Mapquest; 3) the majority of highway signs (though certainly not all); 4) most radio traffic reports (I don't know how to quantify this but I experience it in my day-to-day life); 5) my E-ZPass statements. There are certainly people who still use Triboro or Triborough in day-to-day conversations, but IMO RFK is definitely the more used, certainly closer to the FDR Drive than to Joe DiMaggio Highway. I think it's time we let Wikipedia reflect this. The Interloafer ( talk) 17:15, 31 December 2021 (UTC)