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The “Controversy” section violates Wikipedia policy with respect to biographies of living persons. “Material about living persons must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoiding original research.” Moreover, “overall presentation and section headings [must be] broadly neutral.” In the case of public figures, an allegation or incident must be “notable, relevant, and well documented” and backed up with “a multitude of reliable published sources.” Wikipedia contributors are warned “not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all.” “[T]he possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. . . . Contentious material about living persons that is . . . poorly sourced . . . should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.” Material that is “negative in tone, and which appear[s] to have been created to disparage the subject, should be deleted at once . . . .”
The editorial agenda of the "Controversy" section is obvious and transparent. It maligns and disparages Dr. Coles’ reputation. The general tone of the passage and the subhead itself are in no sense “broadly neutral.” On the contrary, they are narrow and contentious. The supposed accusations raised in the passage are neither verifiable nor neutral. The allegation itself is isolated to a single published source—a book review by a music critic—and relies on hearsay, opinion, and undocumented attribution. It is not notable, relevant, or well documented in the vast secondary literature on Dr. Coles’ writing. As such, the “Controversy” section creates controversy where there is none. Harmful, contentious, negative in tone, and poorly sourced, the section makes for a grossly disproportionate biographical profile. As such, it deserves deletion. Cooperddc ( talk) 14:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
In fairness to David Hadju (the source in question here), he makes no allegations against Coles' "fabricating quotes about . . . Springsteen" or "misrepresenting" Walker Percy. Here's what Hadju says: "I was not there to overhear them, of course, and it is impossible to check with . . . Percy. But I did ask Will Percy about the comments on Springsteen that Coles attributes to his uncle, and he called them 'outrageous.' Walker Percy 'definitely didn't talk like that,' according to his nephew." So the editorial issue here is not Hadju's "allegation." It is: How do I verify Will Percy's claim? What's the source? I can't find any other citable source in the vast secondary literature on Robert Coles that reinforces Will Percy's contention that a person quoted by Coles "didn't talk like that." Is Hadju quoting Will Percy's own original research, his opinion about what his uncle "talked like"? If so, what's so "outrageous" about a novelist "talking differently" to his nephew than he would talk, say, to an intimate friend like Coles, a fellow doctor, a famous writer in his own right, who also wrote a book on Percy based on 2 New Yorker profiles and to whom the novelist dedicated one of his own books? I speak very differently to my nephew than I would to a famous colleague with whom I share a friendship and a collaborative relationship. EEng's edit does not give "ample balance" against this isolated and unfounded allegation. It gives an undeserved measure of credibility to an allegation that exists, as far as I can tell, no where other than the head of Will Percy. Cooperddc ( talk) 15:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Sorry. As you can see from reading the new material I substituted for the deletion, I have tried to put a more balanced, substantive, neutral, reliable frame around the isolated controversy provoked by Hadju's blog entry and research methods, something EEng her/himself rightly describes as nothing more than a "minor unpleasantness" that nonetheless occupies a substantial amount of real estate in this entry. I have quoted Dr. Coles himself. I have cited a Coles' scholar on the issue of his (controversial) documentary methods. I am not trying to gloss over or camouflage a controversy because it "upsets me" (or a respected living author or his family). I am trying to turn a hatchet job into something "encyclopedic." I am trying to replace drive-by journalism (phone calls, no fact-checking, no attempt to corroborate, etc.) and concussive rhetoric ("utterly incredible," "outrageous," etc.) with reasoned, balanced, respectful argument. While I know it won't fly here, I would argue in favor of deleting the Hadju screed and including the citation as a reference. Otherwise, I encourage EEng and others to continue massaging the Hadju insert and try to make it more "encyclopedic" and less what it is: an isolated cheap shot. Cooperddc ( talk) 15:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
May I suggest adding one item to the list of publications? I don't know how to do it myself and don't want to disturb the page as it stands. "A Spectacle Unto The World" by Robert Coles and Jon Erikson (photographer). Viking Press. (out of print). 184.15.18.107 ( talk) 22:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC). EDITED TO ADD: The full title of the book is: "A Spectacle Unto The World: The Catholic Worker Movement, 1973." Apologies. 184.15.18.107 ( talk) 22:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
It is interesting here that Robert Coles' mother is listed as Sandra Young and from Ohio. As is well known in our extended family, her name was Sonya Yanowitch (I do not know if the name was changed later) and she was certainly not born in Ohio, but spoke with a Russian-Yiddish accent. At some point Dr. Coles' ethnic origins were reinvented. To undesrstand the man you should learn why. Yanowitch ( talk) 00:39, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The “Controversy” section violates Wikipedia policy with respect to biographies of living persons. “Material about living persons must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoiding original research.” Moreover, “overall presentation and section headings [must be] broadly neutral.” In the case of public figures, an allegation or incident must be “notable, relevant, and well documented” and backed up with “a multitude of reliable published sources.” Wikipedia contributors are warned “not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all.” “[T]he possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. . . . Contentious material about living persons that is . . . poorly sourced . . . should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.” Material that is “negative in tone, and which appear[s] to have been created to disparage the subject, should be deleted at once . . . .”
The editorial agenda of the "Controversy" section is obvious and transparent. It maligns and disparages Dr. Coles’ reputation. The general tone of the passage and the subhead itself are in no sense “broadly neutral.” On the contrary, they are narrow and contentious. The supposed accusations raised in the passage are neither verifiable nor neutral. The allegation itself is isolated to a single published source—a book review by a music critic—and relies on hearsay, opinion, and undocumented attribution. It is not notable, relevant, or well documented in the vast secondary literature on Dr. Coles’ writing. As such, the “Controversy” section creates controversy where there is none. Harmful, contentious, negative in tone, and poorly sourced, the section makes for a grossly disproportionate biographical profile. As such, it deserves deletion. Cooperddc ( talk) 14:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
In fairness to David Hadju (the source in question here), he makes no allegations against Coles' "fabricating quotes about . . . Springsteen" or "misrepresenting" Walker Percy. Here's what Hadju says: "I was not there to overhear them, of course, and it is impossible to check with . . . Percy. But I did ask Will Percy about the comments on Springsteen that Coles attributes to his uncle, and he called them 'outrageous.' Walker Percy 'definitely didn't talk like that,' according to his nephew." So the editorial issue here is not Hadju's "allegation." It is: How do I verify Will Percy's claim? What's the source? I can't find any other citable source in the vast secondary literature on Robert Coles that reinforces Will Percy's contention that a person quoted by Coles "didn't talk like that." Is Hadju quoting Will Percy's own original research, his opinion about what his uncle "talked like"? If so, what's so "outrageous" about a novelist "talking differently" to his nephew than he would talk, say, to an intimate friend like Coles, a fellow doctor, a famous writer in his own right, who also wrote a book on Percy based on 2 New Yorker profiles and to whom the novelist dedicated one of his own books? I speak very differently to my nephew than I would to a famous colleague with whom I share a friendship and a collaborative relationship. EEng's edit does not give "ample balance" against this isolated and unfounded allegation. It gives an undeserved measure of credibility to an allegation that exists, as far as I can tell, no where other than the head of Will Percy. Cooperddc ( talk) 15:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Sorry. As you can see from reading the new material I substituted for the deletion, I have tried to put a more balanced, substantive, neutral, reliable frame around the isolated controversy provoked by Hadju's blog entry and research methods, something EEng her/himself rightly describes as nothing more than a "minor unpleasantness" that nonetheless occupies a substantial amount of real estate in this entry. I have quoted Dr. Coles himself. I have cited a Coles' scholar on the issue of his (controversial) documentary methods. I am not trying to gloss over or camouflage a controversy because it "upsets me" (or a respected living author or his family). I am trying to turn a hatchet job into something "encyclopedic." I am trying to replace drive-by journalism (phone calls, no fact-checking, no attempt to corroborate, etc.) and concussive rhetoric ("utterly incredible," "outrageous," etc.) with reasoned, balanced, respectful argument. While I know it won't fly here, I would argue in favor of deleting the Hadju screed and including the citation as a reference. Otherwise, I encourage EEng and others to continue massaging the Hadju insert and try to make it more "encyclopedic" and less what it is: an isolated cheap shot. Cooperddc ( talk) 15:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
May I suggest adding one item to the list of publications? I don't know how to do it myself and don't want to disturb the page as it stands. "A Spectacle Unto The World" by Robert Coles and Jon Erikson (photographer). Viking Press. (out of print). 184.15.18.107 ( talk) 22:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC). EDITED TO ADD: The full title of the book is: "A Spectacle Unto The World: The Catholic Worker Movement, 1973." Apologies. 184.15.18.107 ( talk) 22:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
It is interesting here that Robert Coles' mother is listed as Sandra Young and from Ohio. As is well known in our extended family, her name was Sonya Yanowitch (I do not know if the name was changed later) and she was certainly not born in Ohio, but spoke with a Russian-Yiddish accent. At some point Dr. Coles' ethnic origins were reinvented. To undesrstand the man you should learn why. Yanowitch ( talk) 00:39, 26 March 2013 (UTC)