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Add the current temperature data of the river to give a datum for extreme changes or slow warming —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.91.165 ( talk) 17:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
As far as I know, 'climate' is climate. There is no such thing as 'winter climate' – this is bad usage.... it should be 'climate... in winter' (unlike, for example, 'winter weather', etc). Cheers, Bruce – Agendum ( talk) 18:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the unreferenced and unspecific claim to "one of the coldest 4 or 5 winters" as per Jimbo's quote on WP:BURDEN -- Bardcom ( talk) 16:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
So... the anti-British-Isles campaign continues. BC added [1]. Which is teo refs: one to [2]. This is an obviously stupid ref: it contains no dates, and nothing useful at all: just some quotes from Orlando, which is a novel. The second ref is actually to hard data, but unsynthesised data, so its not much use. It also provides no support at all for changing BI into B. Bardcom is not providing sensible refs; he is adopting a politically motivated POV (don't use BI) and propping this up with refs that simply don't justify what he is claiming, if you actually bother to follow the refs William M. Connolley ( talk) 12:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)Here's a pretty good reference that states England, not British Isles. It's a book called The Climate of Europe, Past, Present, and Future - Natural and Man-induced Climatic Changes: A European perspective and published by the European commission. Page 46. Here's a link: [4] It mentions that the winter of 1683-4 appears as the coldest in the central England record since 1659, though it was probably equalled by the winter of 1607-8 (which may have exceeded it in the Netherlands and Germany). It's also dubious as to where this winter stands in terms of all-time records - many references point to other winters being colder, or as cold. Using the term "British Isles" is incorrect since Irish weather is generally different being directly on the Atlantic front. It's been a number of days now since a reference has been requested, and there are several referencs that either use the term Britain or England. -- Bardcom ( talk) 21:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The notion that the rest of the British Isles have a completely separate climate to central England is ludicrous. If it was a cold winter on the Thames, it was a cold winter all over the islands. Weather is limited by geography, not politics - so the use of a geographical term (like "British Isles") makes more sense than a political one ("England") in this instance. Waggers ( talk) 11:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I find William Connolley's behaviour all the more annoying that, if anybody can provide evidence that this frost extended to say, Wales, Scotland or Ireland it is him. Even a Circumstatial explanation (possibly even a Wiki article) would suffice. My own humble experience this that Britain and Ireland (even London and Manchester) have different weather at the same time. Lucian Sunday ( talk) 20:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Evidence of River Liffey Freezing in 1338 - Lucian Sunday ( talk) 22:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Manley and the RMetS are impeccable sources. It was not appropriate to remove them. Adding extra sources is fine. Mathsci ( talk) 07:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I've just blocked 93.107.72.250 as a sock of User:Gold heart. See-also User talk:Alison. 93.107.xxx is banned; all edits can be reverted without counting towards 3rr William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be an impasse on the wording of this sentence: During the Great Frost of (1683–1684), one of the coldest winters recorded in the British Isles and parts of mainland Europe[1][2][3], and the severest winter on record based on the mean Central England temperature for December to February,[4] the Thames was completely frozen for about two months and the ice was reported to be 11 inches (about 28 cm) thick at London.
The objectionable part of the sentence relates to referring to "in the British Isles" for reasons outlined above.
This straw poll is to test for a consensus.
Please record your choice below with a short reason. Please don't insert comments in the choice section - use the Discussion section instead. -- Bardcom ( talk) 12:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Closed - no consensus
There shouldn't be a poll over this. This situation most closely parallels the BC/AD or BCE/CE debate ( [6]). Finding a reference that uses one or the other doesn't really tell us which way to go (unless maybe a ref talks extensively about both the River Thames frost fairs and the geographical label --which I doubt can be found). The reason I think it most closely parallels the "BC/AD or BCE/CE" debate, is that ultimately the most important idea that came out of it was: use whichever, but don't go around the pedia changing from one to the other --that's disruptive. So it is the same here with "British Isles" or some version of England. R. Baley ( talk) 15:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Closed - No Consensus -- Bardcom ( talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
After all the talk last week, no consensus was reached, and no references have been produced to back up the claim that the Great Frost was one of the worst over the British Isles. Wikipedia policy states that claims must be backed up by references to verifiable sources. The article has been changed according to the best references that have been found. -- Bardcom ( talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The first Irish systematic records of temperature were made by William Molyneux, FRS, in 1683-4. He sent his monthly "weather diaries", similar to those published in volume 15 of the Philosophical transactions by John Plot, to William Musgrave, Secretary of the Royal Society. According to the note on Molyneux here, one of the Dublin charts is reproduced in Robert Gunther's "Early Science in Oxford", vol. XII. This would seem to indicate that the charts are still preserved somewhere in Oxford, possibly in the archives of New College, where Musgrave was a fellow. If someone has access to Gunther (eg it's in the reserve collection of the UL in Cambridge), this might help clarify things. Mathsci ( talk) 17:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
There are two references to London Bridge as a contributor to river freezing. Only one of these claims is footnoted, and the provided link does not support the claim. I propose removing these claims. Any objections?
-- Fun with aluminum ( talk) 03:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
In the 'In History' section, the article states, "Furthermore, old London Bridge [...] was pulled down in 1820", and cites Gordon Manley, Climate and the British Scene, Collins, May 1972 edition, p290.
In the 'The last frost fair' section, the article states, "old London Bridge was demolished in 1831", with no citation.
The Wikipedia article on London Bridge for the era [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge#.22New.22_.2819th-century.29_London_Bridge ], states, "The old bridge continued in use as the new bridge was being built, and was demolished after the latter opened in 1831", but also gives no citation.
Googling 'old London Bridge demolished' seems to indicate a demolition year of 1831 (though possibly 1830), so it seems that the date given in 'The last frost fair' section is correct -- which means that the only entry which actually has a citation is probably wrong. However, I do not have access to Manley's 'Climate and the Brirish Scene' to verify that citation, and it bothers me that the more probable dates have no citations.
Anyone have any good references to fix this? 71.188.27.77 ( talk) 15:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
You'll have seen that I've made some additions, and a few alterations to this article. I hope these meet with contributors' approval. I don't want to give the impression I'm coming in and taking over – clearly this article has been the work of a number of editors over a period of time (including myself, up until April last year). I'm happy to collaborate (which is what Wikipedia isa ll about!)
I see that American spelling is used throughout – does that indicate that some or all of the contributors are from N. America? I thought I should ask before presuming to change it to British spelling.
I have another book somewhere which gives a little more information about this fascinating subject - I'll dig it out and, if appropriate, I'll be able to give a little further contemporary detail about the frost fairs. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum ( talk) 07:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
1783-4 is not listed, but I believe should be. Alpheus ( talk) 06:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Are the quoted depths of 27 inches and four feet (respectively) in the G. Manley ref? If not, then perhaps we need {{ cn}} tags. (I'll try to skim through that ref at some point, but I can't now - and I thought someone here may know the answer anyway.) -- Trevj ( talk) 09:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
The first sentence of the lead and the first sentence of the section "The first frost fairs" seem to disagree about which century saw the fiest frost fair. JH ( talk page) 09:55, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
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I wonder if we are exaggerating a little. We say The first known frost fair on the River Thames was in AD 695, although it was not known by the title of frost fair. The river froze over for six weeks. Vendors set up booths on the frozen river in which they sold goods. This is sourced to page 176144 of a book written in 1835 by Thomas Tegg, and he says "the Thames frozen for six weeks, when booths were built on it". Were there really "vendors" in England 1300 years ago? Is it possible it was just people sharing food or beer or something? We seem to be reading between the lines here.
—
Soap
— 17:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
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Add the current temperature data of the river to give a datum for extreme changes or slow warming —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.91.165 ( talk) 17:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
As far as I know, 'climate' is climate. There is no such thing as 'winter climate' – this is bad usage.... it should be 'climate... in winter' (unlike, for example, 'winter weather', etc). Cheers, Bruce – Agendum ( talk) 18:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the unreferenced and unspecific claim to "one of the coldest 4 or 5 winters" as per Jimbo's quote on WP:BURDEN -- Bardcom ( talk) 16:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
So... the anti-British-Isles campaign continues. BC added [1]. Which is teo refs: one to [2]. This is an obviously stupid ref: it contains no dates, and nothing useful at all: just some quotes from Orlando, which is a novel. The second ref is actually to hard data, but unsynthesised data, so its not much use. It also provides no support at all for changing BI into B. Bardcom is not providing sensible refs; he is adopting a politically motivated POV (don't use BI) and propping this up with refs that simply don't justify what he is claiming, if you actually bother to follow the refs William M. Connolley ( talk) 12:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)Here's a pretty good reference that states England, not British Isles. It's a book called The Climate of Europe, Past, Present, and Future - Natural and Man-induced Climatic Changes: A European perspective and published by the European commission. Page 46. Here's a link: [4] It mentions that the winter of 1683-4 appears as the coldest in the central England record since 1659, though it was probably equalled by the winter of 1607-8 (which may have exceeded it in the Netherlands and Germany). It's also dubious as to where this winter stands in terms of all-time records - many references point to other winters being colder, or as cold. Using the term "British Isles" is incorrect since Irish weather is generally different being directly on the Atlantic front. It's been a number of days now since a reference has been requested, and there are several referencs that either use the term Britain or England. -- Bardcom ( talk) 21:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
The notion that the rest of the British Isles have a completely separate climate to central England is ludicrous. If it was a cold winter on the Thames, it was a cold winter all over the islands. Weather is limited by geography, not politics - so the use of a geographical term (like "British Isles") makes more sense than a political one ("England") in this instance. Waggers ( talk) 11:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I find William Connolley's behaviour all the more annoying that, if anybody can provide evidence that this frost extended to say, Wales, Scotland or Ireland it is him. Even a Circumstatial explanation (possibly even a Wiki article) would suffice. My own humble experience this that Britain and Ireland (even London and Manchester) have different weather at the same time. Lucian Sunday ( talk) 20:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Evidence of River Liffey Freezing in 1338 - Lucian Sunday ( talk) 22:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Manley and the RMetS are impeccable sources. It was not appropriate to remove them. Adding extra sources is fine. Mathsci ( talk) 07:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I've just blocked 93.107.72.250 as a sock of User:Gold heart. See-also User talk:Alison. 93.107.xxx is banned; all edits can be reverted without counting towards 3rr William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be an impasse on the wording of this sentence: During the Great Frost of (1683–1684), one of the coldest winters recorded in the British Isles and parts of mainland Europe[1][2][3], and the severest winter on record based on the mean Central England temperature for December to February,[4] the Thames was completely frozen for about two months and the ice was reported to be 11 inches (about 28 cm) thick at London.
The objectionable part of the sentence relates to referring to "in the British Isles" for reasons outlined above.
This straw poll is to test for a consensus.
Please record your choice below with a short reason. Please don't insert comments in the choice section - use the Discussion section instead. -- Bardcom ( talk) 12:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Closed - no consensus
There shouldn't be a poll over this. This situation most closely parallels the BC/AD or BCE/CE debate ( [6]). Finding a reference that uses one or the other doesn't really tell us which way to go (unless maybe a ref talks extensively about both the River Thames frost fairs and the geographical label --which I doubt can be found). The reason I think it most closely parallels the "BC/AD or BCE/CE" debate, is that ultimately the most important idea that came out of it was: use whichever, but don't go around the pedia changing from one to the other --that's disruptive. So it is the same here with "British Isles" or some version of England. R. Baley ( talk) 15:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Closed - No Consensus -- Bardcom ( talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
After all the talk last week, no consensus was reached, and no references have been produced to back up the claim that the Great Frost was one of the worst over the British Isles. Wikipedia policy states that claims must be backed up by references to verifiable sources. The article has been changed according to the best references that have been found. -- Bardcom ( talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The first Irish systematic records of temperature were made by William Molyneux, FRS, in 1683-4. He sent his monthly "weather diaries", similar to those published in volume 15 of the Philosophical transactions by John Plot, to William Musgrave, Secretary of the Royal Society. According to the note on Molyneux here, one of the Dublin charts is reproduced in Robert Gunther's "Early Science in Oxford", vol. XII. This would seem to indicate that the charts are still preserved somewhere in Oxford, possibly in the archives of New College, where Musgrave was a fellow. If someone has access to Gunther (eg it's in the reserve collection of the UL in Cambridge), this might help clarify things. Mathsci ( talk) 17:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
There are two references to London Bridge as a contributor to river freezing. Only one of these claims is footnoted, and the provided link does not support the claim. I propose removing these claims. Any objections?
-- Fun with aluminum ( talk) 03:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
In the 'In History' section, the article states, "Furthermore, old London Bridge [...] was pulled down in 1820", and cites Gordon Manley, Climate and the British Scene, Collins, May 1972 edition, p290.
In the 'The last frost fair' section, the article states, "old London Bridge was demolished in 1831", with no citation.
The Wikipedia article on London Bridge for the era [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge#.22New.22_.2819th-century.29_London_Bridge ], states, "The old bridge continued in use as the new bridge was being built, and was demolished after the latter opened in 1831", but also gives no citation.
Googling 'old London Bridge demolished' seems to indicate a demolition year of 1831 (though possibly 1830), so it seems that the date given in 'The last frost fair' section is correct -- which means that the only entry which actually has a citation is probably wrong. However, I do not have access to Manley's 'Climate and the Brirish Scene' to verify that citation, and it bothers me that the more probable dates have no citations.
Anyone have any good references to fix this? 71.188.27.77 ( talk) 15:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
You'll have seen that I've made some additions, and a few alterations to this article. I hope these meet with contributors' approval. I don't want to give the impression I'm coming in and taking over – clearly this article has been the work of a number of editors over a period of time (including myself, up until April last year). I'm happy to collaborate (which is what Wikipedia isa ll about!)
I see that American spelling is used throughout – does that indicate that some or all of the contributors are from N. America? I thought I should ask before presuming to change it to British spelling.
I have another book somewhere which gives a little more information about this fascinating subject - I'll dig it out and, if appropriate, I'll be able to give a little further contemporary detail about the frost fairs. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum ( talk) 07:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
1783-4 is not listed, but I believe should be. Alpheus ( talk) 06:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Are the quoted depths of 27 inches and four feet (respectively) in the G. Manley ref? If not, then perhaps we need {{ cn}} tags. (I'll try to skim through that ref at some point, but I can't now - and I thought someone here may know the answer anyway.) -- Trevj ( talk) 09:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
The first sentence of the lead and the first sentence of the section "The first frost fairs" seem to disagree about which century saw the fiest frost fair. JH ( talk page) 09:55, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:50, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:16, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
I wonder if we are exaggerating a little. We say The first known frost fair on the River Thames was in AD 695, although it was not known by the title of frost fair. The river froze over for six weeks. Vendors set up booths on the frozen river in which they sold goods. This is sourced to page 176144 of a book written in 1835 by Thomas Tegg, and he says "the Thames frozen for six weeks, when booths were built on it". Were there really "vendors" in England 1300 years ago? Is it possible it was just people sharing food or beer or something? We seem to be reading between the lines here.
—
Soap
— 17:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)